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Shamir again (was Labour peer hosts....)

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  • Brighton Unemployed Workers Ct
    I m sorry that I didn t attend the Brighton PSC AGM. If I d known that Shamir was going to be defended by the speaker I would have attended. Roland is right,
    Message 1 of 4 , Apr 10, 2005
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      I'm sorry that I didn't attend the Brighton PSC AGM. If I'd known that Shamir was going to be defended by the speaker I would have attended.

      Roland is right, but what he always says is true. Anti-semitic 'support' for the Palestinians is always detrimental because it plays straight into the hands of the Zionists. Those Palestinian or Arab fools who believe that Shamir is any aid to their struggle clearly have little understanding of the role of anti-Semitism in creating both the Zionist movement and its bastard offspring state.

      I disagree profoundly with Stephen Marks. It matters not one jot whether Shamir claims its the 'Jews' who are after him. We don't take our cue from anti-Semites. My suggestion is that anti-Zionist Jews, maybe under the banner of Return or JAZ, should sign an open letter to the PLO/PSC etc. insisting that they categorically repudiate Shamir and all his works and calling on Deir Yassin Remembered to break its links. What is important is that those Jews who sign are seen, without any qualification or equivocation, to be opposed to Zionism root and branch AND opposed to Shamir.

      Tony Greenstein

      >>Charles, Iike you I come across quite a few people that sware by Shamir, and Paul isn't the only one: about a week ago I attended the Brighton and Hove PSC annual general meeting and in quite a strong presentation about the occupation, by someone called David Halpin, who has set up a food delivery charity for Gaza (and is thinking of running for parliament) some very admiring remarks were made about Shamir. On top of that he told the audience to ignore the 'campaign that is waged against him (Shamir) by Jewish right wingers'

      I did not have the emotional stemema to say something (and I did not really know all that I know now...). As I said though, in a previous hastily scribbled email, we should ask the Arab Media Watch and Affif and the PSC to denounce him (If they expect us to denounce ant-Arab feelings they should also be ready to denounce his brand of pathological hatered).

      Deborah has written to Caabu to ask them to denounce Shamir...and I hope someone is willing to write simulatneously to the above organisations, or simply forward them some of the evidence that was circulated in this list in the last few days.

      Thanks Orna

      ....

      From: "Roland Rance" <lists@...>
      Subject: RE: Re: JC: Labour peer hosts anti-Jewish speaker at the House of Lords

      The point about Shamir is not only that he is anti-Jewish (which he is); but that he is positively harmful to the Palestinian sttruggle, and to any aspiration for coexistence in the Middle East. His "solution" appears to be an alliance between Palestinians and fascism, to bring about a
      conversion of the Israeli Jews to Christianity. And no, I'm not making this up or exaggerating; it's there explicitly in his writings.

      So we should not ask people like Afif and PSC to denounce Shamir because of his anti-Jewish rantings; we should insist that they join us in rejecting his whole approach as an obstacle to any progressive political strategy.

      Roland

      Subject: RE: Re: JC: Labour peer hosts anti-Jewish speaker at the House of Lords

      Roland I see no difference between progressive political objective and denunciation of hatered campaigns of any kind.

      I think the more important thing is to find someone, who is willing to write to Affif, to the Arab Media Watch and to the PSC. Would you like to do that? or else as usual it will fall on Deborah?!

      Or may Richard would be willing to write on behalf of JFJP?
      Thanks Orna
      From: Stephen Marks <stephenmarks@...>
      Subject: Re: Re: JC: Labour peer hosts anti-Jewish speaker at the House of Lords

      I think the approach should come from a broad range of people, so Shamir cannot muddy the waters by claiming it is 'the jews' who are after him. The fact is that the zionists have been 'crying wolf' over antisemitism for so long that some people who have not read his material will be vulnerable to the argument that attacks on him are simply a reprise of the old zionist
      chorus.

      stephen marks


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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Roland Rance
      I m not sure I agree with the strategy Tony suggests. It would certainly be possible to draw up a statement on the lines Tony suggests, to be signed by
      Message 2 of 4 , Apr 10, 2005
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        I'm not sure I agree with the strategy Tony suggests. It would certainly be
        possible to draw up a statement on the lines Tony suggests, to be signed by
        explicitly anti-Zionist Jews, demanding that PSC, DYR etc break with
        Shamir. But I think this might be counter-productive, and once again imply
        that the problem with Shamir is simply that he is anti-Jewish. I think the
        problem is far more profound than this, and I would be reluctant to let it
        become, or seem to become, an issue on which anti-Zionist Jews make demands
        of the solidarity movement. In fact, I think this would play into Shamir's
        hands, and enable him to respond as he has done in the past, by branding us
        as fair-weather friends of the Palestinians. After all, he has already
        denounced Lenni Brenner as a "crypto-Zionist"; he would similarly dismiss
        any statement from us. Indeed, I suspect that he would quite like such a
        letter, since it would again enable to portray himself as the brave honest
        fighter against a powerful Jewish conspiracy, with both "left" and "right"
        faces.

        Roland
      • orna neumann
        Is there somone willing to take this forward? Thanks Orna Brighton Unemployed Workers Ct wrote: I m sorry that I
        Message 3 of 4 , Apr 12, 2005
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          Is there somone willing to take this forward?

          Thanks Orna

          Brighton Unemployed Workers Ct <brightonunemployedcentre2000@...> wrote:


          I'm sorry that I didn't attend the Brighton PSC AGM. If I'd known that Shamir was going to be defended by the speaker I would have attended.

          Roland is right, but what he always says is true. Anti-semitic 'support' for the Palestinians is always detrimental because it plays straight into the hands of the Zionists. Those Palestinian or Arab fools who believe that Shamir is any aid to their struggle clearly have little understanding of the role of anti-Semitism in creating both the Zionist movement and its bastard offspring state.

          I disagree profoundly with Stephen Marks. It matters not one jot whether Shamir claims its the 'Jews' who are after him. We don't take our cue from anti-Semites. My suggestion is that anti-Zionist Jews, maybe under the banner of Return or JAZ, should sign an open letter to the PLO/PSC etc. insisting that they categorically repudiate Shamir and all his works and calling on Deir Yassin Remembered to break its links. What is important is that those Jews who sign are seen, without any qualification or equivocation, to be opposed to Zionism root and branch AND opposed to Shamir.

          Tony Greenstein

          >>Charles, Iike you I come across quite a few people that sware by Shamir, and Paul isn't the only one: about a week ago I attended the Brighton and Hove PSC annual general meeting and in quite a strong presentation about the occupation, by someone called David Halpin, who has set up a food delivery charity for Gaza (and is thinking of running for parliament) some very admiring remarks were made about Shamir. On top of that he told the audience to ignore the 'campaign that is waged against him (Shamir) by Jewish right wingers'

          I did not have the emotional stemema to say something (and I did not really know all that I know now...). As I said though, in a previous hastily scribbled email, we should ask the Arab Media Watch and Affif and the PSC to denounce him (If they expect us to denounce ant-Arab feelings they should also be ready to denounce his brand of pathological hatered).

          Deborah has written to Caabu to ask them to denounce Shamir...and I hope someone is willing to write simulatneously to the above organisations, or simply forward them some of the evidence that was circulated in this list in the last few days.

          Thanks Orna

          ....

          From: "Roland Rance"

          Subject: RE: Re: JC: Labour peer hosts anti-Jewish speaker at the House of Lords

          The point about Shamir is not only that he is anti-Jewish (which he is); but that he is positively harmful to the Palestinian sttruggle, and to any aspiration for coexistence in the Middle East. His "solution" appears to be an alliance between Palestinians and fascism, to bring about a
          conversion of the Israeli Jews to Christianity. And no, I'm not making this up or exaggerating; it's there explicitly in his writings.

          So we should not ask people like Afif and PSC to denounce Shamir because of his anti-Jewish rantings; we should insist that they join us in rejecting his whole approach as an obstacle to any progressive political strategy.

          Roland

          Subject: RE: Re: JC: Labour peer hosts anti-Jewish speaker at the House of Lords

          Roland I see no difference between progressive political objective and denunciation of hatered campaigns of any kind.

          I think the more important thing is to find someone, who is willing to write to Affif, to the Arab Media Watch and to the PSC. Would you like to do that? or else as usual it will fall on Deborah?!

          Or may Richard would be willing to write on behalf of JFJP?
          Thanks Orna
          From: Stephen Marks
          Subject: Re: Re: JC: Labour peer hosts anti-Jewish speaker at the House of Lords

          I think the approach should come from a broad range of people, so Shamir cannot muddy the waters by claiming it is 'the jews' who are after him. The fact is that the zionists have been 'crying wolf' over antisemitism for so long that some people who have not read his material will be vulnerable to the argument that attacks on him are simply a reprise of the old zionist
          chorus.

          stephen marks


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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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        • brian663977
          May I just think aloud for a moment? I fully accept the arguments for approaching organisations such as the PSC along the lines Tony suggests. However, is
          Message 4 of 4 , Apr 12, 2005
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            May I just think aloud for a moment? I fully accept the arguments for
            approaching organisations such as the PSC along the lines Tony
            suggests. However, is there a chance that it could be counterproductive?

            It sometimes seems to me that the more evidence you adduce, including
            from Shamir's own writings, the more the true believers resist it.
            Like deeply hypnotised subjects, or sufferers from hysterical
            blindness or amnesia, a part of them sees quite well what it is they
            don't want to see (hypnotised subjects in experiments have been shown
            to walk carefully around obstacles whose presence they deny, and so on
            ...) And you don't have to be hypnotised to fall under the influence
            of suggestion, including auto-suggestion. As advertisers and
            political demogogues know.

            If much of what Shamir writes strikes deep chords within people, let's
            say people whose primary motivation for involvement in this issue is
            an unacknowledged, and denied, antisemitism, then in attacking
            Shamir's writings we're attacking that hidden - but probably deeply
            cherished - part of those people's personalities. And they'll muster
            all the narcissistic defences they can - denial, projection (It's not
            us, it's you lot).

            And maybe they've got us in a double bind - if we win the argument we
            lose it, and the better we win, the worse we lose ... A friend has
            written to me to say we're wasting our time on the abominable trio and
            simply giving them the old O2 publicity kick. We should (he writes)
            be "concentrating now on fighting the horrors of what is going on in
            Israel and the OT. We should be challenging the three parties as to
            what they will do to stop Sharon and the Wall and the settlements, and
            call a halt to this round".

            As I said, I'm thinking aloud ... and listening hard ...
            Cheers
            Brian









            --- In JustPeaceUK@yahoogroups.com, orna neumann <ornaneumann@y...> wrote:
            > Is there somone willing to take this forward?
            >
            > Thanks Orna
            >
            > Brighton Unemployed Workers Ct <brightonunemployedcentre2000@y...>
            wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > >My suggestion is that anti-Zionist Jews, maybe under the banner of
            Return or JAZ, should sign an open letter to the PLO/PSC etc.
            insisting that they categorically repudiate Shamir and all his works
            and calling on Deir Yassin Remembered to break its links. What is
            important is that those Jews who sign are seen, without any
            qualification or equivocation, to be opposed to Zionism root and
            branch AND opposed to Shamir.
            >
            > Tony Greenstein
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