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Re: Anne Remillard

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  • alixnc
    Neither can Pope Benedict LOLOL
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 11, 2009
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      Neither can Pope Benedict LOLOL
      --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "evildinkguy51" <jmw2@...> wrote:
      >
      > I realize that readers of SF always engage in the willful suspension of disbelief, and some of the outrageous stuff in both Plieocene and Mileau sagas test the barriers, but for the most part I go along with them. The thing I find hardest to fathom has to be a female Catholic priest officiating at a gay wedding! I just can't see the good old Roman Catholic Church ever going along with that, exotic coercion or not!
      >
    • mariposa7b5
      Ahaha. I m reminded of when I was watching an episode of Babylon 5 once, and there was reference to the current Pope at that time, who was female. You just
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 11, 2009
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        Ahaha. I'm reminded of when I was watching an episode of 'Babylon 5' once, and there was reference to the current Pope at that time, who was female.

        You just have to keep an eye on these sci-fi author types, who can't resist from speculating about all kinds of radical things that might happen one day...

        High Thoughts,


        Mod Mom #2



        --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "evildinkguy51" <jmw2@...> wrote:
        >
        > I realize that readers of SF always engage in the willful suspension of disbelief, and some of the outrageous stuff in both Plieocene and Mileau sagas test the barriers, but for the most part I go along with them. The thing I find hardest to fathom has to be a female Catholic priest officiating at a gay wedding! I just can't see the good old Roman Catholic Church ever going along with that, exotic coercion or not!
        >
      • Padraig Timmins
        Yep, your probably right. The RC Church is one of the most intractable institutions in the World (depending on who happens to be Pope, that is - JP2 seemed
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 12, 2009
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          Yep, your probably right.  The RC Church is one of the most intractable institutions in the World (depending on who happens to be Pope, that is - JP2 seemed like a fairly good man, but this Ratzinger is a medieval moron).
           
          However I get the impression that after Intervention in 2013 (Hey!  Only 4 years left!) the Milieu made life difficult for everyone who didn't conform to its agenda.  For individuals it pushed them towards professions that they had an aptitude for, whether they had a liking for those professions or not (some of the key rebels became rebels for EXACTLY this fact), and I don't suppose it was any different for organisations.
           
          The RC Church has a psyche based in the Middle-ages on many Realities of modern day society (women, homosexuality, birth control, etc), and I just don't see the Milieu putting up with the RC rubbish that we all have to suffer at the moment.  Same would go for Islam.
           
          Cheers
           
           
          Padster


           
          2009/3/12 evildinkguy51 <jmw2@...>

          I realize that readers of SF always engage in the willful suspension of disbelief, and some of the outrageous stuff in both Plieocene and Mileau sagas test the barriers, but for the most part I go along with them. The thing I find hardest to fathom has to be a female Catholic priest officiating at a gay wedding! I just can't see the good old Roman Catholic Church ever going along with that, exotic coercion or not!


        • Angel
          From The Many-Coloured Land - CHAPTER EIGHT Fewer agnostics than believers chose to abandon the present; but the devout time-travelers were often fanatics or
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 12, 2009
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            From The Many-Coloured Land - CHAPTER EIGHT

             Fewer agnostics than believers chose to abandon the present; but the devout time-travelers were often fanatics or conservatives disillusioned about modern religious trends, particularly the Milieu dicta that proscribed revolutionary socialism, jihads, or any style of theocracy. Many nonreligious, but few orthodox, Jews were tempted to escape to the past; a disproportionate number of Muslims and Catholics wanted to make the trip.

            So No more Catholic Church or any style of theocracy!

            My 2 cents!

            Angel



            --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Padraig Timmins <timmypaddins@...> wrote:
            >
            > Yep, your probably right. The RC Church is one of the most intractable
            > institutions in the World (depending on who happens to be Pope, that is -
            > JP2 seemed like a fairly good man, but this Ratzinger is a medieval moron).
            >
            > However I get the impression that after Intervention in 2013 (Hey! Only 4
            > years left!) the Milieu made life difficult for everyone who didn't conform
            > to its agenda. For individuals it pushed them towards professions that they
            > had an aptitude for, whether they had a liking for those professions or not
            > (some of the key rebels became rebels for EXACTLY this fact), and I don't
            > suppose it was any different for organisations.
            >
            > The RC Church has a psyche based in the Middle-ages on many Realities of
            > modern day society (women, homosexuality, birth control, etc), and I just
            > don't see the Milieu putting up with the RC rubbish that we all have to
            > suffer at the moment. Same would go for Islam.
            >
            > Cheers
            >
            >
            > Padster
            >
            >
            >
            > 2009/3/12 evildinkguy51 jmw2@...
            >
            > > I realize that readers of SF always engage in the willful suspension of
            > > disbelief, and some of the outrageous stuff in both Plieocene and Mileau
            > > sagas test the barriers, but for the most part I go along with them. The
            > > thing I find hardest to fathom has to be a female Catholic priest
            > > officiating at a gay wedding! I just can't see the good old Roman Catholic
            > > Church ever going along with that, exotic coercion or not!
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • Oliver Mundy
            Ahaha. I m reminded of when I was watching an episode of Babylon 5 once, and there was reference to the current Pope at that time, who was female. (Mod Mom
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 12, 2009
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              "Ahaha. I'm reminded of when I was watching an episode of 'Babylon 5' once,
              and there was reference to the current Pope at that time, who was female."
              (Mod Mom #2)

              JM herself seems to have envisaged the possibility of a female Pope;
              somewhere in the 'Pliocene Companion' it is said that, under the Milieu, the
              Pope is addressed as 'Holy Father' or 'Holy Mother'.

              I suppose one could argue that, in view of the Milieu's declared
              opposition to any kind of religious fundamentalism, the Roman Church would
              have been faced with a bleak trio of choices: suppression, defiance (which,
              among other unhappy consequences, would have resulted in its being
              implicitly and embarrassingly associated with the murderous 'Sons of Earth'
              and, later, with Marc's Rebels) or compromise. In such conditions, perhaps
              the last option is not quite such an impossibility. However, I suspect that
              JM has given way to the kind of wishful thinking which has been the amiable
              weakness of so many science-fiction writers: she cannot help filling her
              remote worlds with the people and the culture she knows and enjoys in her
              own world, or modifying them only in order to idealise them. Clearly she
              values her faith and her Church, but she also values tolerance, freedom and
              acceptance of diversity, and so she has allowed herself to superimpose the
              qualities she loves on the institution she loves, glossing over the question
              whether that institution (which I do *not* wish to denigrate) could ever
              wholly embrace those qualities without entirely losing its identity.

              Oliver Mundy.
            • Angel
              I only can nod and applaud! Angel
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 12, 2009
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                I only can nod and applaud!

                Angel

                --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Oliver Mundy" <oliver.mundy@...> wrote:
                >
                > "Ahaha. I'm reminded of when I was watching an episode of 'Babylon 5' once,
                > and there was reference to the current Pope at that time, who was female."
                > (Mod Mom #2)
                >
                > JM herself seems to have envisaged the possibility of a female Pope;
                > somewhere in the 'Pliocene Companion' it is said that, under the Milieu, the
                > Pope is addressed as 'Holy Father' or 'Holy Mother'.
                >
                > I suppose one could argue that, in view of the Milieu's declared
                > opposition to any kind of religious fundamentalism, the Roman Church would
                > have been faced with a bleak trio of choices: suppression, defiance (which,
                > among other unhappy consequences, would have resulted in its being
                > implicitly and embarrassingly associated with the murderous 'Sons of Earth'
                > and, later, with Marc's Rebels) or compromise. In such conditions, perhaps
                > the last option is not quite such an impossibility. However, I suspect that
                > JM has given way to the kind of wishful thinking which has been the amiable
                > weakness of so many science-fiction writers: she cannot help filling her
                > remote worlds with the people and the culture she knows and enjoys in her
                > own world, or modifying them only in order to idealise them. Clearly she
                > values her faith and her Church, but she also values tolerance, freedom and
                > acceptance of diversity, and so she has allowed herself to superimpose the
                > qualities she loves on the institution she loves, glossing over the question
                > whether that institution (which I do *not* wish to denigrate) could ever
                > wholly embrace those qualities without entirely losing its identity.
                >
                > Oliver Mundy.
                >
              • alixnc
                Just for fun, Google Pope Joan -- and never think this is a legend Julian May was unaware of. Here s the main entry from the online Encyclopaedia Brittanica:
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 12, 2009
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                  Just for fun, Google "Pope Joan" -- and never think this is a legend Julian May was unaware of.

                  Here's the main entry from the online Encyclopaedia Brittanica:
                  legendary female pontiff who supposedly reigned, under the title of John VIII, for slightly more than 25 months, from 855 to 858, between the pontificates of Leo IV (847–855) and Benedict III (855–858). It has subsequently been proved that a gap of only a few weeks fell between Leo and Benedict and that the story is entirely apocryphal.

                  One of the earliest extant sources for the Joan legend is the De septem donis Spiritu Sancti ("The Seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit") by the 13th-century French Dominican Stephen of Bourbon, who dated Joan's election c. 1100. In this account the nameless pontiff was a clever scribe who became a papal notary and later was elected pope; pregnant at the time of her election, she gave birth during the procession to the Lateran, whereupon she was dragged out of Rome and stoned to death.

                  The story was widely spread during the later 13th century, mostly by friars and primarily by means of interpolations made in many manuscripts of the Chronicon pontificum et imperatorum ("The Chronicle of the Popes and Emperors") by the 13th-century Polish Dominican Martin of Troppau. Support for the version that she died in childbirth and was buried on the spot was derived from the fact that in later years papal processions used to avoid a particular street, allegedly where the disgraceful event had occurred. The name Joan was not finally adopted until the 14th century; other names commonly given were Agnes or Gilberta.

                  According to later legend, particularly by Martin (who dated her election in 855 and who specifically named her Johannes Angelicus), Joan was an Englishwoman; but her birthplace was given as the German city of Mainz—an apparent inconsistency that some writers reconciled by explaining that her parents migrated to that city. She supposedly fell in love with an English Benedictine monk and, dressing as a man, accompanied him to Athens. Having acquired great learning, she moved to Rome, where she became cardinal and pope. From the 13th century the story appears in literature, including the works of the Benedictine chronicler Ranulf Higden and the Italian humanists Giovanni Boccaccio and Petrarch.

                  In the 15th century, Joan's existence was regarded as fact, even by the Council of Constance in 1415. During the 16th and 17th centuries the story was used for Protestant polemics. Such scholars as Aeneas Silvius Piccolomini (afterward Pope Pius II) and Cardinal Caesar Baronius regarded the story as unfounded; but it was the Calvinist David Blondel who made the first determined attempt to destroy the myth in his Éclaircissement familier de la question: Si une femme a été assise au siège papal de Rome (1647; "Familiar Enlightenment of the Question: Whether a Woman Had Been Seated on the Papal Throne in Rome"). According to one theory, the fable grew from widespread gossip concerning the influence wielded by the 10th-century Roman woman senator Marozia and her mother Theodora of the powerful house of Theophylact.
                  ----------------------------------------------
                  --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Oliver Mundy" <oliver.mundy@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > "Ahaha. I'm reminded of when I was watching an episode of 'Babylon 5' once,
                  > and there was reference to the current Pope at that time, who was female."
                  > (Mod Mom #2)
                  >
                  > JM herself seems to have envisaged the possibility of a female Pope;
                  > somewhere in the 'Pliocene Companion' it is said that, under the Milieu, the
                  > Pope is addressed as 'Holy Father' or 'Holy Mother'.
                  >
                  > I suppose one could argue that, in view of the Milieu's declared
                  > opposition to any kind of religious fundamentalism, the Roman Church would
                  > have been faced with a bleak trio of choices: suppression, defiance (which,
                  > among other unhappy consequences, would have resulted in its being
                  > implicitly and embarrassingly associated with the murderous 'Sons of Earth'
                  > and, later, with Marc's Rebels) or compromise. In such conditions, perhaps
                  > the last option is not quite such an impossibility. However, I suspect that
                  > JM has given way to the kind of wishful thinking which has been the amiable
                  > weakness of so many science-fiction writers: she cannot help filling her
                  > remote worlds with the people and the culture she knows and enjoys in her
                  > own world, or modifying them only in order to idealise them. Clearly she
                  > values her faith and her Church, but she also values tolerance, freedom and
                  > acceptance of diversity, and so she has allowed herself to superimpose the
                  > qualities she loves on the institution she loves, glossing over the question
                  > whether that institution (which I do *not* wish to denigrate) could ever
                  > wholly embrace those qualities without entirely losing its identity.
                  >
                  > Oliver Mundy.
                  >
                • alixnc
                  PS -- Anyone recognize the name Piccolomini from the lasy graf of the Brittanica excerpt? alix
                  Message 8 of 9 , Mar 12, 2009
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                    PS -- Anyone recognize the name "Piccolomini" from the lasy graf of the Brittanica excerpt?
                    alix
                    --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "alixnc" <alixnc@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Just for fun, Google "Pope Joan" -- and never think this is a legend Julian May was unaware of.
                    >
                    > Here's the main entry from the online Encyclopaedia Brittanica:
                    > legendary female pontiff who supposedly reigned, under the title of John VIII, for slightly more than 25 months, from 855 to 858, between the pontificates of Leo IV (847–855) and Benedict III (855–858). It has subsequently been proved that a gap of only a few weeks fell between Leo and Benedict and that the story is entirely apocryphal.
                    >
                    > One of the earliest extant sources for the Joan legend is the De septem donis Spiritu Sancti ("The Seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit") by the 13th-century French Dominican Stephen of Bourbon, who dated Joan's election c. 1100. In this account the nameless pontiff was a clever scribe who became a papal notary and later was elected pope; pregnant at the time of her election, she gave birth during the procession to the Lateran, whereupon she was dragged out of Rome and stoned to death.
                    >
                    > The story was widely spread during the later 13th century, mostly by friars and primarily by means of interpolations made in many manuscripts of the Chronicon pontificum et imperatorum ("The Chronicle of the Popes and Emperors") by the 13th-century Polish Dominican Martin of Troppau. Support for the version that she died in childbirth and was buried on the spot was derived from the fact that in later years papal processions used to avoid a particular street, allegedly where the disgraceful event had occurred. The name Joan was not finally adopted until the 14th century; other names commonly given were Agnes or Gilberta.
                    >
                    > According to later legend, particularly by Martin (who dated her election in 855 and who specifically named her Johannes Angelicus), Joan was an Englishwoman; but her birthplace was given as the German city of Mainz—an apparent inconsistency that some writers reconciled by explaining that her parents migrated to that city. She supposedly fell in love with an English Benedictine monk and, dressing as a man, accompanied him to Athens. Having acquired great learning, she moved to Rome, where she became cardinal and pope. From the 13th century the story appears in literature, including the works of the Benedictine chronicler Ranulf Higden and the Italian humanists Giovanni Boccaccio and Petrarch.
                    >
                    > In the 15th century, Joan's existence was regarded as fact, even by the Council of Constance in 1415. During the 16th and 17th centuries the story was used for Protestant polemics. Such scholars as Aeneas Silvius Piccolomini (afterward Pope Pius II) and Cardinal Caesar Baronius regarded the story as unfounded; but it was the Calvinist David Blondel who made the first determined attempt to destroy the myth in his Éclaircissement familier de la question: Si une femme a été assise au siège papal de Rome (1647; "Familiar Enlightenment of the Question: Whether a Woman Had Been Seated on the Papal Throne in Rome"). According to one theory, the fable grew from widespread gossip concerning the influence wielded by the 10th-century Roman woman senator Marozia and her mother Theodora of the powerful house of Theophylact.
                    > ----------------------------------------------
                    > --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Oliver Mundy" <oliver.mundy@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > "Ahaha. I'm reminded of when I was watching an episode of 'Babylon 5' once,
                    > > and there was reference to the current Pope at that time, who was female."
                    > > (Mod Mom #2)
                    > >
                    > > JM herself seems to have envisaged the possibility of a female Pope;
                    > > somewhere in the 'Pliocene Companion' it is said that, under the Milieu, the
                    > > Pope is addressed as 'Holy Father' or 'Holy Mother'.
                    > >
                    > > I suppose one could argue that, in view of the Milieu's declared
                    > > opposition to any kind of religious fundamentalism, the Roman Church would
                    > > have been faced with a bleak trio of choices: suppression, defiance (which,
                    > > among other unhappy consequences, would have resulted in its being
                    > > implicitly and embarrassingly associated with the murderous 'Sons of Earth'
                    > > and, later, with Marc's Rebels) or compromise. In such conditions, perhaps
                    > > the last option is not quite such an impossibility. However, I suspect that
                    > > JM has given way to the kind of wishful thinking which has been the amiable
                    > > weakness of so many science-fiction writers: she cannot help filling her
                    > > remote worlds with the people and the culture she knows and enjoys in her
                    > > own world, or modifying them only in order to idealise them. Clearly she
                    > > values her faith and her Church, but she also values tolerance, freedom and
                    > > acceptance of diversity, and so she has allowed herself to superimpose the
                    > > qualities she loves on the institution she loves, glossing over the question
                    > > whether that institution (which I do *not* wish to denigrate) could ever
                    > > wholly embrace those qualities without entirely losing its identity.
                    > >
                    > > Oliver Mundy.
                    > >
                    >
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