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Re: [Julian-May-discuss] Re: Felice and the Many-in-All

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  • Oliver Mundy
    Thank you, Michelle, for your comments. In the passage in The Golden Torc , we find Felice appealing to three potential sources of strength: the two-in-One ,
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 29, 2008
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      Thank you, Michelle, for your comments.
       
              In the passage in 'The Golden Torc', we find Felice appealing to three potential sources of strength: 'the two-in-One', who are now 'oddly separate' and so unavailable (clearly Elizabeth and Brede);  'the many-in-All so much further out' who had helped her before, but who now refuse their aid and 'try to show her other ways';  and a new focus from the west, 'so bright, so early-rising', which does reinforce her final blast.  (This sounds like Marc, and probably - I would agree - Marc in isolation rather than as part of any metaconcert, since the curious description [dawn coming from the *West*?] prefigures the attribute 'star of morning' which is applied to him personally later on.)  This does leave room, as you suggest, for identifying the many-in-All with the amateur metaconcert of the second-generation Ocalans.  But is the altruism and non-violence which is implicit in the behaviour of the many-in-All, really in character for these young Rebels?  Most of those whom we meet afterwards seem quite capable of (as Kuhal puts it later in the conversation which you have quoted) letting the water into the ants' nest, just to watch the fun;  perhaps Cloud might hold back for reasons of conscience and humanity, but can you imagine Hagen, for example, or Vaughn Jarrow, or even the rational but decidely chilly Elaby Gathen, doing so?  This is the consideration which makes me continue feel that something of a higher and in every sense remoter nature ('so much further out') must be involved.
       
              Well, as you say, we can do no more than speculate - and be grateful to JM, mere 'entertainer' though she professes to be, for giving us so much to speculate about.
       
              Oliver Mundy.
    • Padraig Timmins
      I can t remember the specific timeline at the mo regards when the Rebel Kids started to help Felice, but I can t think that this aid could have been provided
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 31, 2008
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        I can't remember the specific timeline at the mo regards when the Rebel Kids started to help Felice, but I can't think that this aid could have been provided by anyone other than them.  If anything such as 'Divinity' existed, then why on earth would it help Felice.  Such an all-knowing 'Divinity' would have know what a horrible person Felice was and to have aided her would have been tantamount to being responsible for the murder of thousands........but hey, its not as though God is not responsible for that kind of thing anyway......if he exists.....
         
        Cheers
         
         
         
        Padster

        2008/8/27 Oliver Mundy <oliver.mundy@...>

        Here is another knotty point regarding Felice which I hope will provoke some thoughts, high or otherwise: - During the trip down the Rhône in 'The Golden Torc', when Harry the boatman escapes from Felice's control and she is unable to stabilise the boat unaided, she tries to apply her own interpretation of prayer (following Amerie's suggestion) and makes contact with something described as 'the many-in-All', which lends its strength to her.  My question is: - What is this many-in-All?  It is clearly not identical with the metaconcert of Marc's followers which helps her during the flooding of the Mediterranean, since we are told that at that stage the many-in-All refuses its aid to Felice - from which it is clear that we are concerned with something that has both volition and a sense of right and wrong, rather than a simple force of nature.  Surely nothing less than a fully mature World Mind, embodying a Unified community, could possess both the power and the consciousness to act in this way;  and yet the indications are that at this period there is no such community anywhere in the universe - at least Marc, with all his natural and artificial powers, has found nothing of the sort.  So what or whom has Felice found?  Is it the inhabitants of the Duat galaxy (who are said at the very end to be close to Unity), or their comrades the Ships;  or is it perhaps Divinity itself?
         
                Oliver Mundy.


      • Michelle Rose
        My dear Oliver: A most cogent analysis and one with which I quite agree. The two-in-one is undoubtedly Brede and Elizabeth. Additionally, it is quite
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 13, 2008
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          My dear Oliver:
          A most cogent analysis and one with which I quite agree. The
          'two-in-one' is undoubtedly Brede and Elizabeth. Additionally, it is
          quite unreasonable to expect, as you said, that the Children of the
          Rebels would display anything resembling the altruism ethic that was
          imparted to their parents.

          'So much further out'. Interesting. I'd missed that reference.
          It DOES make one wonder. Lylmik, perhaps? We know that they existed
          in the Pliocene Galaxy, Marc simply never found them, partly because
          their sun did not register the same spectral signature it did in the
          time of the Milieu. Curious. And curiously compelling. Ah well, just
          another reason to re-read the series. You can imagine my dismay.
          Michelle

          --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Oliver
          Mundy" <oliver.mundy@...> wrote:
          >
          > Thank you, Michelle, for your comments.
          >
          > In the passage in 'The Golden Torc', we find Felice
          appealing to three potential sources of strength: 'the two-in-One',
          who are now 'oddly separate' and so unavailable (clearly Elizabeth
          and Brede); 'the many-in-All so much further out' who had helped her
          before, but who now refuse their aid and 'try to show her other
          ways'; and a new focus from the west, 'so bright, so early-rising',
          which does reinforce her final blast. (This sounds like Marc, and
          probably - I would agree - Marc in isolation rather than as part of
          any metaconcert, since the curious description [dawn coming from the
          *West*?] prefigures the attribute 'star of morning' which is applied
          to him personally later on.) This does leave room, as you suggest,
          for identifying the many-in-All with the amateur metaconcert of the
          second-generation Ocalans. But is the altruism and non-violence
          which is implicit in the behaviour of the many-in-All, really in
          character for these young Rebels? Most of those whom we meet
          afterwards seem quite capable of (as Kuhal puts it later in the
          conversation which you have quoted) letting the water into the ants'
          nest, just to watch the fun; perhaps Cloud might hold back for
          reasons of conscience and humanity, but can you imagine Hagen, for
          example, or Vaughn Jarrow, or even the rational but decidely chilly
          Elaby Gathen, doing so? This is the consideration which makes me
          continue feel that something of a higher and in every sense remoter
          nature ('so much further out') must be involved.
          >
          > Well, as you say, we can do no more than speculate - and be
          grateful to JM, mere 'entertainer' though she professes to be, for
          giving us so much to speculate about.
          >
          > Oliver Mundy.
          >
        • AbyssAngyl@aol.com
          Hi All, Although Marc did search for the Lylmik- he never found them. They had not come into being ... yet. I suspect as it was suggested by Marc (I am THE
          Message 4 of 11 , Sep 14, 2008
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            Hi All,
             
            Although Marc did search for the Lylmik- he never found them. They had not come into being ... yet. I suspect as it was suggested by Marc (I am THE Lylmik) Atoning Unifex that the Lylmik are the evolved decendants of the Duat galaxy. He hinted strongly in several places that this was the case.
             



          • Angel
            I think it s very clear, overall in Jack The Bodyless . And Uncle Rogi, Tell Marc: You Lylmik bastard!.... (or something simmilar several times! :)) ... had
            Message 5 of 11 , Sep 14, 2008
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              I think it's very clear, overall in "Jack The Bodyless".

              And Uncle Rogi, Tell Marc: "You Lylmik bastard!...." (or something
              simmilar several times! :))


              --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, AbyssAngyl@... wrote:
              >
              > Hi All,
              >
              > Although Marc did search for the Lylmik- he never found them. They
              had not
              > come into being ... yet. I suspect as it was suggested by Marc (I
              am THE
              > Lylmik) Atoning Unifex that the Lylmik are the evolved decendants of
              the Duat
              > galaxy. He hinted strongly in several places that this was the case.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > **************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new
              fashion blog,
              > plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.
              > (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014)
              >
            • Padraig Timmins
              I would agree that the two in one is Brede and Elizabeth. I don t recall the specifics so can t comment on the altruism of them, but don t see recall a
              Message 6 of 11 , Sep 15, 2008
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                I would agree that the two in one is Brede and Elizabeth.  I don't recall the specifics so can't comment on the 'altruism' of them, but don't see recall a reason why the many in all can't be the rebel kids, and it could be the Firvulag too, who also possessed limited skill in meta-concerts, even if they were reluctant to use them before Sharn and Ayfa took over.  And there is NO doubt that it is Marc who helped Felce with the final blast of Gibraltar.  I am sure he even admits to it, and Elizabeth is sure too.

                 

                As for the Lylmik as a possible explanation for the many-in-all, this is a TOTAL non-starter.  The Lylmik did not exists in the Pliocene Galaxy.  There is nothing to suggest they do, and there are specific statement by Atoning Unifix himself to say they didn't!

                 

                At the start of Diamond Mask, Atoning Unifix tells Rogi the following: 

                     ...

                     When the Duat work was done, Elizabeth was weary and ready to

                pass on. She begged me to follow her into the peace and light of

                the Cosmic All ... but I could not.

                     Instead, I felt compelled to return here. Alone, cut off from every

                mind that had loved me and from the consoling Unity I had known in

                Duat, I undertook what I judged was my true penance: to assist the

                maturation of our own Galactic Mind.

                     Through years that seemed without end I guided one promising

                planet after another, cajoling civilization from barbarism, altruism

                from savagery. Of course I could not truly coerce the developing

                races of the Milky Way. I only assisted the inevitable complexification

                of the World Mind that accompanies life's evolution.

                     I made many ghastly mistakes.

                     Can you conceive of the doubts that assailed me, Rogi, the fear

                that I might have succumbed to a hubris even more immense than

                that which originally obsessed me? No ... I see that you can't

                understand. Never mind, mon oncle. Only believe me. It was a

                terrible time. Le bon dieu is as silent and invisible to the likes of

                me as he is to any other material being. I could not help but ask

                myself if I was committing a fresh sin of pride in thinking that my

                assistance was needed.

                     Was I helping the Galactic Mind, or merely meddling with

                evolution again, as I had been when I tried to engender Mental

                Man?

                     Our galaxy has so many planets with thinking creatures! Yet so

                few—so pathetically few!—ever achieved any sort of social or

                mental maturity under my guidance, much less the coadunation

                of the higher mindpowers that leads to Unity. But finally, perhaps

                in spite of my efforts rather than as a result of them, I found success.

                The Lylmik were the first minds to Unify, and I adopted their peculiar

                race as my own. Then, aeons later, the Krondaku also achieved

                coadunation.

                     ...

                Paragraph 2 above clearly states AU was CUT OFF from all the minds of Duat.  The final paragraph clearly states that the Lylmik achieved co-ordinance with AU's aid and the use of the term 'finally' and the suggesting that he made so many prior attempts with other civilisations suggest that it was a long time after his return before even the Lylmik managed to pull their socks up.

                 

                The Lylmik were simply not around in the Pliocene for Marc to contact and the comments of their sun being different is a TOTAL red herring.

                 

                Cheers

                 

                 

                Padraig

                 

              • Rebecca
                ... every ... altruism ... complexification ... fear ... of ... I was always fascinated by this exchange. What mistakes did Marc/Unifex make? And at what
                Message 7 of 11 , Sep 15, 2008
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                  --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Padraig Timmins"
                  <timmypaddins@...> wrote:
                  >


                  > At the start of Diamond Mask, Atoning Unifix tells Rogi the
                  following:
                  >
                  > ...
                  >
                  > When the Duat work was done, Elizabeth was weary and ready to
                  >
                  > pass on. She begged me to follow her into the peace and light of
                  >
                  > the Cosmic All ... but I could not.
                  >
                  > Instead, I felt compelled to return here. Alone, cut off from
                  every
                  >
                  > mind that had loved me and from the consoling Unity I had known in
                  >
                  > Duat, I undertook what I judged was my true penance: to assist the
                  >
                  > maturation of our own Galactic Mind.
                  >
                  > Through years that seemed without end I guided one promising
                  >
                  > planet after another, cajoling civilization from barbarism,
                  altruism
                  >
                  > from savagery. Of course I could not truly coerce the developing
                  >
                  > races of the Milky Way. I only assisted the inevitable
                  complexification
                  >
                  > of the World Mind that accompanies life's evolution.
                  >
                  > I made many ghastly mistakes.
                  >
                  > Can you conceive of the doubts that assailed me, Rogi, the
                  fear
                  >
                  > that I might have succumbed to a hubris even more immense than
                  >
                  > that which originally obsessed me? No ... I see that you can't
                  >
                  > understand. Never mind, mon oncle. Only believe me. It was a
                  >
                  > terrible time. Le bon dieu is as silent and invisible to the likes
                  of
                  >
                  > me as he is to any other material being. I could not help but ask
                  >
                  > myself if I was committing a fresh sin of pride in thinking that my
                  >
                  > assistance was needed.
                  >
                  > Was I helping the Galactic Mind, or merely meddling with
                  >
                  > evolution again, as I had been when I tried to engender Mental
                  >
                  > Man?



                  I was always fascinated by this exchange. What mistakes did
                  Marc/Unifex make? And at what point did he actually "become"
                  Atoning Unifex? Was it only in response to the Metapsychic
                  Rebellion, or was there another disaster that he caused?
                • Oliver Mundy
                  “I . . . don t see recall a reason why the many in all can t be the rebel kids, and it could be the Firvulag too, who also possessed limited skill in
                  Message 8 of 11 , Sep 16, 2008
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                    “I . . . don't see recall a reason why the many in all can't be the rebel
                    kids, and it could be the Firvulag too, who also possessed limited skill in
                    meta-concerts, even if they were reluctant to use them before Sharn and Ayfa
                    took over. And there is NO doubt that it is Marc who helped Felice with the
                    final blast of Gibraltar.” (Padraig)

                    Padraig: The suggestion of the Firvulag is one I had not thought of:
                    intriguing, certainly, especially in the light of the fact that they are
                    known to have helped Felice before during her escape from the Tanu
                    slave-caravan - but why would the Firvulag be described as 'so much farther
                    out'? And would they have been capable of the necessary combination of
                    minds at this period, before Sharn and Ayfa's reforms?

                    I do think, too, that there is a clear
                    distinction in the text between the many-in-All and the Ocalans. Of course
                    you are
                    right to say that Marc and his confederates, including the younger
                    generation (Cloud acknowledges this in her conversations with Kuhal, as you
                    have pointed out), were involved in the Gibraltar operation. That in fact
                    is the whole point, because the many-in-All was *not* so involved; it had
                    helped Felice on the Rhône, but this time it withheld its support and
                    'tr[ied] to show [Felice] other ways', and it was
                    only after this rejection that she found aid elsewhere - clearly from the
                    Rebels.

                    I feel more and more that the many-in-All may be identifiable with
                    the Ships. They seem to be the most advanced race in the Pliocene
                    universe; they have great metapsychic powers and are 'wholly benevolent'
                    (JM in 'The Pliocene Companion') and capable of selfless love; they may not
                    have achieved Unity as such (perhaps because they are not numerous enough,
                    although this is only a guess), but their welcoming appearance at the very
                    close of 'The Adversary', in response to Marc and Elizabeth's call, suggests
                    that they are at least aware of the concept.

                    Oliver Mundy.
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