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[Julian-May-discuss] Felice and the Many-in-All

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  • Oliver Mundy
    Here is another knotty point regarding Felice which I hope will provoke some thoughts, high or otherwise: - During the trip down the Rhône in The Golden
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 27, 2008
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      Here is another knotty point regarding Felice which I hope will provoke some thoughts, high or otherwise: - During the trip down the Rhône in 'The Golden Torc', when Harry the boatman escapes from Felice's control and she is unable to stabilise the boat unaided, she tries to apply her own interpretation of prayer (following Amerie's suggestion) and makes contact with something described as 'the many-in-All', which lends its strength to her.  My question is: - What is this many-in-All?  It is clearly not identical with the metaconcert of Marc's followers which helps her during the flooding of the Mediterranean, since we are told that at that stage the many-in-All refuses its aid to Felice - from which it is clear that we are concerned with something that has both volition and a sense of right and wrong, rather than a simple force of nature.  Surely nothing less than a fully mature World Mind, embodying a Unified community, could possess both the power and the consciousness to act in this way;  and yet the indications are that at this period there is no such community anywhere in the universe - at least Marc, with all his natural and artificial powers, has found nothing of the sort.  So what or whom has Felice found?  Is it the inhabitants of the Duat galaxy (who are said at the very end to be close to Unity), or their comrades the Ships;  or is it perhaps Divinity itself?
       
              Oliver Mundy.
    • Michelle Rose
      Oliver: Ah, nothing so rarified, I fear. The Earth s WorldMind or noosphere, as Teilhard de Chardin termed it, was not yet coalesced and would not be so for
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 27, 2008
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        Oliver:
        Ah, nothing so rarified, I fear. The Earth's WorldMind or
        noosphere, as Teilhard de Chardin termed it, was not yet coalesced
        and would not be so for another six million years. Alas, it was
        merely the Children of the Rebels and not Marc himself. Cloud makes a
        passing reference to this in 'The Nonborn King'. True, Marc himself
        stepped in and directed the metaconcert during the Breach of
        Gibraltar--expert in aggressive metafunctions, as always--but it was
        Cloud and Hagen who led the other children (young adults, really) and
        I recall that Marc was amused at their fumbling efforts to direct
        their first long-range metaconcert. Cloud and Hagen had been
        following Felice via farsight for some weeks, ever since her escape
        from the convoy from Castle Gateway. It is even possible, though not
        specfically stated, that they may have helped her even then. Marc's
        children saw from the very start--I'm sure Cloud noticed it
        immediately, given her redactive and coercive skills--that Felice's
        potentials far exceeded anyone that they had ever encountered,
        including their own father's. It's safe to say that Hagen, with his
        deep-seated hatred of Marc, first conceived the notion of turning
        Felice into a weapon they could use against him. Which, as we all
        know, backfired rather spectacularly.

        Michelle

        --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Oliver
        Mundy" <oliver.mundy@...> wrote:
        >
        > Here is another knotty point regarding Felice which I hope will
        provoke some thoughts, high or otherwise: - During the trip down the
        Rhône in 'The Golden Torc', when Harry the boatman escapes from
        Felice's control and she is unable to stabilise the boat unaided, she
        tries to apply her own interpretation of prayer (following Amerie's
        suggestion) and makes contact with something described as 'the many-
        in-All', which lends its strength to her. My question is: - What is
        this many-in-All? It is clearly not identical with the metaconcert
        of Marc's followers which helps her during the flooding of the
        Mediterranean, since we are told that at that stage the many-in-All
        refuses its aid to Felice - from which it is clear that we are
        concerned with something that has both volition and a sense of right
        and wrong, rather than a simple force of nature. Surely nothing less
        than a fully mature World Mind, embodying a Unified community, could
        possess both the power and the consciousness to act in this way; and
        yet the indications are that at this period there is no such
        community anywhere in the universe - at least Marc, with all his
        natural and artificial powers, has found nothing of the sort. So
        what or whom has Felice found? Is it the inhabitants of the Duat
        galaxy (who are said at the very end to be close to Unity), or their
        comrades the Ships; or is it perhaps Divinity itself?
        >
        > Oliver Mundy.
        >
      • Michelle Rose
        Oliver: After some perusal of my copies of the Pliocene Exile, I cannot find any direct reference to Cloud admitting that they specifically assisted Felice in
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 27, 2008
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          Oliver:
          After some perusal of my copies of the Pliocene Exile, I cannot
          find any direct reference to Cloud admitting that they specifically
          assisted Felice in the levitation of Johnny's pneumatic barge.
          However, in the scene toward the end of 'The Nonborn King', with
          Kuhal in Skin and Cloud assisting in his redaction, they are
          conducting a conversation in intimate mode, relating to each other
          their respective histories and Cloud DOES admit that she and the
          Children of the Rebels had been watching the Many-Colored Land for a
          long time before the advent of Felice. It strikes me, therefore, as
          entirely possible that a weak, long-distance metaconcert was employed
          by the Children to temporarily boost Felice's nascent powers and lift
          that barge long enough to avoid its destruction in the rapids.
          Possible, not unlikely and again, confirmeable only by JM herself.
          So: we may speculate and that's most of the fun, n'cest ce
          pas?

          --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Michelle
          Rose" <michelle_rose3@...> wrote:
          >
          > Oliver:
          > Ah, nothing so rarified, I fear. The Earth's WorldMind or
          > noosphere, as Teilhard de Chardin termed it, was not yet coalesced
          > and would not be so for another six million years. Alas, it was
          > merely the Children of the Rebels and not Marc himself. Cloud makes
          a
          > passing reference to this in 'The Nonborn King'. True, Marc himself
          > stepped in and directed the metaconcert during the Breach of
          > Gibraltar--expert in aggressive metafunctions, as always--but it
          was
          > Cloud and Hagen who led the other children (young adults, really)
          and
          > I recall that Marc was amused at their fumbling efforts to direct
          > their first long-range metaconcert. Cloud and Hagen had been
          > following Felice via farsight for some weeks, ever since her escape
          > from the convoy from Castle Gateway. It is even possible, though
          not
          > specfically stated, that they may have helped her even then. Marc's
          > children saw from the very start--I'm sure Cloud noticed it
          > immediately, given her redactive and coercive skills--that Felice's
          > potentials far exceeded anyone that they had ever encountered,
          > including their own father's. It's safe to say that Hagen, with his
          > deep-seated hatred of Marc, first conceived the notion of turning
          > Felice into a weapon they could use against him. Which, as we all
          > know, backfired rather spectacularly.
          >
          > Michelle
          >
          > --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Oliver
          > Mundy" <oliver.mundy@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Here is another knotty point regarding Felice which I hope will
          > provoke some thoughts, high or otherwise: - During the trip down
          the
          > Rhône in 'The Golden Torc', when Harry the boatman escapes from
          > Felice's control and she is unable to stabilise the boat unaided,
          she
          > tries to apply her own interpretation of prayer (following Amerie's
          > suggestion) and makes contact with something described as 'the many-
          > in-All', which lends its strength to her. My question is: - What
          is
          > this many-in-All? It is clearly not identical with the metaconcert
          > of Marc's followers which helps her during the flooding of the
          > Mediterranean, since we are told that at that stage the many-in-All
          > refuses its aid to Felice - from which it is clear that we are
          > concerned with something that has both volition and a sense of
          right
          > and wrong, rather than a simple force of nature. Surely nothing
          less
          > than a fully mature World Mind, embodying a Unified community,
          could
          > possess both the power and the consciousness to act in this way;
          and
          > yet the indications are that at this period there is no such
          > community anywhere in the universe - at least Marc, with all his
          > natural and artificial powers, has found nothing of the sort. So
          > what or whom has Felice found? Is it the inhabitants of the Duat
          > galaxy (who are said at the very end to be close to Unity), or
          their
          > comrades the Ships; or is it perhaps Divinity itself?
          > >
          > > Oliver Mundy.
          > >
          >
        • Oliver Mundy
          Thank you, Michelle, for your comments. In the passage in The Golden Torc , we find Felice appealing to three potential sources of strength: the two-in-One ,
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 29, 2008
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            Thank you, Michelle, for your comments.
             
                    In the passage in 'The Golden Torc', we find Felice appealing to three potential sources of strength: 'the two-in-One', who are now 'oddly separate' and so unavailable (clearly Elizabeth and Brede);  'the many-in-All so much further out' who had helped her before, but who now refuse their aid and 'try to show her other ways';  and a new focus from the west, 'so bright, so early-rising', which does reinforce her final blast.  (This sounds like Marc, and probably - I would agree - Marc in isolation rather than as part of any metaconcert, since the curious description [dawn coming from the *West*?] prefigures the attribute 'star of morning' which is applied to him personally later on.)  This does leave room, as you suggest, for identifying the many-in-All with the amateur metaconcert of the second-generation Ocalans.  But is the altruism and non-violence which is implicit in the behaviour of the many-in-All, really in character for these young Rebels?  Most of those whom we meet afterwards seem quite capable of (as Kuhal puts it later in the conversation which you have quoted) letting the water into the ants' nest, just to watch the fun;  perhaps Cloud might hold back for reasons of conscience and humanity, but can you imagine Hagen, for example, or Vaughn Jarrow, or even the rational but decidely chilly Elaby Gathen, doing so?  This is the consideration which makes me continue feel that something of a higher and in every sense remoter nature ('so much further out') must be involved.
             
                    Well, as you say, we can do no more than speculate - and be grateful to JM, mere 'entertainer' though she professes to be, for giving us so much to speculate about.
             
                    Oliver Mundy.
          • Padraig Timmins
            I can t remember the specific timeline at the mo regards when the Rebel Kids started to help Felice, but I can t think that this aid could have been provided
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 31, 2008
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              I can't remember the specific timeline at the mo regards when the Rebel Kids started to help Felice, but I can't think that this aid could have been provided by anyone other than them.  If anything such as 'Divinity' existed, then why on earth would it help Felice.  Such an all-knowing 'Divinity' would have know what a horrible person Felice was and to have aided her would have been tantamount to being responsible for the murder of thousands........but hey, its not as though God is not responsible for that kind of thing anyway......if he exists.....
               
              Cheers
               
               
               
              Padster

              2008/8/27 Oliver Mundy <oliver.mundy@...>

              Here is another knotty point regarding Felice which I hope will provoke some thoughts, high or otherwise: - During the trip down the Rhône in 'The Golden Torc', when Harry the boatman escapes from Felice's control and she is unable to stabilise the boat unaided, she tries to apply her own interpretation of prayer (following Amerie's suggestion) and makes contact with something described as 'the many-in-All', which lends its strength to her.  My question is: - What is this many-in-All?  It is clearly not identical with the metaconcert of Marc's followers which helps her during the flooding of the Mediterranean, since we are told that at that stage the many-in-All refuses its aid to Felice - from which it is clear that we are concerned with something that has both volition and a sense of right and wrong, rather than a simple force of nature.  Surely nothing less than a fully mature World Mind, embodying a Unified community, could possess both the power and the consciousness to act in this way;  and yet the indications are that at this period there is no such community anywhere in the universe - at least Marc, with all his natural and artificial powers, has found nothing of the sort.  So what or whom has Felice found?  Is it the inhabitants of the Duat galaxy (who are said at the very end to be close to Unity), or their comrades the Ships;  or is it perhaps Divinity itself?
               
                      Oliver Mundy.


            • Michelle Rose
              My dear Oliver: A most cogent analysis and one with which I quite agree. The two-in-one is undoubtedly Brede and Elizabeth. Additionally, it is quite
              Message 6 of 11 , Sep 13, 2008
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                My dear Oliver:
                A most cogent analysis and one with which I quite agree. The
                'two-in-one' is undoubtedly Brede and Elizabeth. Additionally, it is
                quite unreasonable to expect, as you said, that the Children of the
                Rebels would display anything resembling the altruism ethic that was
                imparted to their parents.

                'So much further out'. Interesting. I'd missed that reference.
                It DOES make one wonder. Lylmik, perhaps? We know that they existed
                in the Pliocene Galaxy, Marc simply never found them, partly because
                their sun did not register the same spectral signature it did in the
                time of the Milieu. Curious. And curiously compelling. Ah well, just
                another reason to re-read the series. You can imagine my dismay.
                Michelle

                --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Oliver
                Mundy" <oliver.mundy@...> wrote:
                >
                > Thank you, Michelle, for your comments.
                >
                > In the passage in 'The Golden Torc', we find Felice
                appealing to three potential sources of strength: 'the two-in-One',
                who are now 'oddly separate' and so unavailable (clearly Elizabeth
                and Brede); 'the many-in-All so much further out' who had helped her
                before, but who now refuse their aid and 'try to show her other
                ways'; and a new focus from the west, 'so bright, so early-rising',
                which does reinforce her final blast. (This sounds like Marc, and
                probably - I would agree - Marc in isolation rather than as part of
                any metaconcert, since the curious description [dawn coming from the
                *West*?] prefigures the attribute 'star of morning' which is applied
                to him personally later on.) This does leave room, as you suggest,
                for identifying the many-in-All with the amateur metaconcert of the
                second-generation Ocalans. But is the altruism and non-violence
                which is implicit in the behaviour of the many-in-All, really in
                character for these young Rebels? Most of those whom we meet
                afterwards seem quite capable of (as Kuhal puts it later in the
                conversation which you have quoted) letting the water into the ants'
                nest, just to watch the fun; perhaps Cloud might hold back for
                reasons of conscience and humanity, but can you imagine Hagen, for
                example, or Vaughn Jarrow, or even the rational but decidely chilly
                Elaby Gathen, doing so? This is the consideration which makes me
                continue feel that something of a higher and in every sense remoter
                nature ('so much further out') must be involved.
                >
                > Well, as you say, we can do no more than speculate - and be
                grateful to JM, mere 'entertainer' though she professes to be, for
                giving us so much to speculate about.
                >
                > Oliver Mundy.
                >
              • AbyssAngyl@aol.com
                Hi All, Although Marc did search for the Lylmik- he never found them. They had not come into being ... yet. I suspect as it was suggested by Marc (I am THE
                Message 7 of 11 , Sep 14, 2008
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                  Hi All,
                   
                  Although Marc did search for the Lylmik- he never found them. They had not come into being ... yet. I suspect as it was suggested by Marc (I am THE Lylmik) Atoning Unifex that the Lylmik are the evolved decendants of the Duat galaxy. He hinted strongly in several places that this was the case.
                   



                • Angel
                  I think it s very clear, overall in Jack The Bodyless . And Uncle Rogi, Tell Marc: You Lylmik bastard!.... (or something simmilar several times! :)) ... had
                  Message 8 of 11 , Sep 14, 2008
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                    I think it's very clear, overall in "Jack The Bodyless".

                    And Uncle Rogi, Tell Marc: "You Lylmik bastard!...." (or something
                    simmilar several times! :))


                    --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, AbyssAngyl@... wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi All,
                    >
                    > Although Marc did search for the Lylmik- he never found them. They
                    had not
                    > come into being ... yet. I suspect as it was suggested by Marc (I
                    am THE
                    > Lylmik) Atoning Unifex that the Lylmik are the evolved decendants of
                    the Duat
                    > galaxy. He hinted strongly in several places that this was the case.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > **************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new
                    fashion blog,
                    > plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.
                    > (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014)
                    >
                  • Padraig Timmins
                    I would agree that the two in one is Brede and Elizabeth. I don t recall the specifics so can t comment on the altruism of them, but don t see recall a
                    Message 9 of 11 , Sep 15, 2008
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                      I would agree that the two in one is Brede and Elizabeth.  I don't recall the specifics so can't comment on the 'altruism' of them, but don't see recall a reason why the many in all can't be the rebel kids, and it could be the Firvulag too, who also possessed limited skill in meta-concerts, even if they were reluctant to use them before Sharn and Ayfa took over.  And there is NO doubt that it is Marc who helped Felce with the final blast of Gibraltar.  I am sure he even admits to it, and Elizabeth is sure too.

                       

                      As for the Lylmik as a possible explanation for the many-in-all, this is a TOTAL non-starter.  The Lylmik did not exists in the Pliocene Galaxy.  There is nothing to suggest they do, and there are specific statement by Atoning Unifix himself to say they didn't!

                       

                      At the start of Diamond Mask, Atoning Unifix tells Rogi the following: 

                           ...

                           When the Duat work was done, Elizabeth was weary and ready to

                      pass on. She begged me to follow her into the peace and light of

                      the Cosmic All ... but I could not.

                           Instead, I felt compelled to return here. Alone, cut off from every

                      mind that had loved me and from the consoling Unity I had known in

                      Duat, I undertook what I judged was my true penance: to assist the

                      maturation of our own Galactic Mind.

                           Through years that seemed without end I guided one promising

                      planet after another, cajoling civilization from barbarism, altruism

                      from savagery. Of course I could not truly coerce the developing

                      races of the Milky Way. I only assisted the inevitable complexification

                      of the World Mind that accompanies life's evolution.

                           I made many ghastly mistakes.

                           Can you conceive of the doubts that assailed me, Rogi, the fear

                      that I might have succumbed to a hubris even more immense than

                      that which originally obsessed me? No ... I see that you can't

                      understand. Never mind, mon oncle. Only believe me. It was a

                      terrible time. Le bon dieu is as silent and invisible to the likes of

                      me as he is to any other material being. I could not help but ask

                      myself if I was committing a fresh sin of pride in thinking that my

                      assistance was needed.

                           Was I helping the Galactic Mind, or merely meddling with

                      evolution again, as I had been when I tried to engender Mental

                      Man?

                           Our galaxy has so many planets with thinking creatures! Yet so

                      few—so pathetically few!—ever achieved any sort of social or

                      mental maturity under my guidance, much less the coadunation

                      of the higher mindpowers that leads to Unity. But finally, perhaps

                      in spite of my efforts rather than as a result of them, I found success.

                      The Lylmik were the first minds to Unify, and I adopted their peculiar

                      race as my own. Then, aeons later, the Krondaku also achieved

                      coadunation.

                           ...

                      Paragraph 2 above clearly states AU was CUT OFF from all the minds of Duat.  The final paragraph clearly states that the Lylmik achieved co-ordinance with AU's aid and the use of the term 'finally' and the suggesting that he made so many prior attempts with other civilisations suggest that it was a long time after his return before even the Lylmik managed to pull their socks up.

                       

                      The Lylmik were simply not around in the Pliocene for Marc to contact and the comments of their sun being different is a TOTAL red herring.

                       

                      Cheers

                       

                       

                      Padraig

                       

                    • Rebecca
                      ... every ... altruism ... complexification ... fear ... of ... I was always fascinated by this exchange. What mistakes did Marc/Unifex make? And at what
                      Message 10 of 11 , Sep 15, 2008
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                        --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Padraig Timmins"
                        <timmypaddins@...> wrote:
                        >


                        > At the start of Diamond Mask, Atoning Unifix tells Rogi the
                        following:
                        >
                        > ...
                        >
                        > When the Duat work was done, Elizabeth was weary and ready to
                        >
                        > pass on. She begged me to follow her into the peace and light of
                        >
                        > the Cosmic All ... but I could not.
                        >
                        > Instead, I felt compelled to return here. Alone, cut off from
                        every
                        >
                        > mind that had loved me and from the consoling Unity I had known in
                        >
                        > Duat, I undertook what I judged was my true penance: to assist the
                        >
                        > maturation of our own Galactic Mind.
                        >
                        > Through years that seemed without end I guided one promising
                        >
                        > planet after another, cajoling civilization from barbarism,
                        altruism
                        >
                        > from savagery. Of course I could not truly coerce the developing
                        >
                        > races of the Milky Way. I only assisted the inevitable
                        complexification
                        >
                        > of the World Mind that accompanies life's evolution.
                        >
                        > I made many ghastly mistakes.
                        >
                        > Can you conceive of the doubts that assailed me, Rogi, the
                        fear
                        >
                        > that I might have succumbed to a hubris even more immense than
                        >
                        > that which originally obsessed me? No ... I see that you can't
                        >
                        > understand. Never mind, mon oncle. Only believe me. It was a
                        >
                        > terrible time. Le bon dieu is as silent and invisible to the likes
                        of
                        >
                        > me as he is to any other material being. I could not help but ask
                        >
                        > myself if I was committing a fresh sin of pride in thinking that my
                        >
                        > assistance was needed.
                        >
                        > Was I helping the Galactic Mind, or merely meddling with
                        >
                        > evolution again, as I had been when I tried to engender Mental
                        >
                        > Man?



                        I was always fascinated by this exchange. What mistakes did
                        Marc/Unifex make? And at what point did he actually "become"
                        Atoning Unifex? Was it only in response to the Metapsychic
                        Rebellion, or was there another disaster that he caused?
                      • Oliver Mundy
                        “I . . . don t see recall a reason why the many in all can t be the rebel kids, and it could be the Firvulag too, who also possessed limited skill in
                        Message 11 of 11 , Sep 16, 2008
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                          “I . . . don't see recall a reason why the many in all can't be the rebel
                          kids, and it could be the Firvulag too, who also possessed limited skill in
                          meta-concerts, even if they were reluctant to use them before Sharn and Ayfa
                          took over. And there is NO doubt that it is Marc who helped Felice with the
                          final blast of Gibraltar.” (Padraig)

                          Padraig: The suggestion of the Firvulag is one I had not thought of:
                          intriguing, certainly, especially in the light of the fact that they are
                          known to have helped Felice before during her escape from the Tanu
                          slave-caravan - but why would the Firvulag be described as 'so much farther
                          out'? And would they have been capable of the necessary combination of
                          minds at this period, before Sharn and Ayfa's reforms?

                          I do think, too, that there is a clear
                          distinction in the text between the many-in-All and the Ocalans. Of course
                          you are
                          right to say that Marc and his confederates, including the younger
                          generation (Cloud acknowledges this in her conversations with Kuhal, as you
                          have pointed out), were involved in the Gibraltar operation. That in fact
                          is the whole point, because the many-in-All was *not* so involved; it had
                          helped Felice on the Rhône, but this time it withheld its support and
                          'tr[ied] to show [Felice] other ways', and it was
                          only after this rejection that she found aid elsewhere - clearly from the
                          Rebels.

                          I feel more and more that the many-in-All may be identifiable with
                          the Ships. They seem to be the most advanced race in the Pliocene
                          universe; they have great metapsychic powers and are 'wholly benevolent'
                          (JM in 'The Pliocene Companion') and capable of selfless love; they may not
                          have achieved Unity as such (perhaps because they are not numerous enough,
                          although this is only a guess), but their welcoming appearance at the very
                          close of 'The Adversary', in response to Marc and Elizabeth's call, suggests
                          that they are at least aware of the concept.

                          Oliver Mundy.
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