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Re: Off Topic, or Just a Bit Off?

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  • alixnc
    Thanks Nicolette, for your generous (and possibly foolhardy) invitation to hold forth, and since I have an unexpected half hour to kill ... ... Perhaps I was
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 1, 2007
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      Thanks Nicolette, for your generous (and possibly foolhardy)
      invitation to hold forth, and since I have an unexpected half hour to
      kill ...

      --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Powell"
      <pallol@...> wrote:
      >
      > I've never really seen the series as being about the death of
      > patriarchy

      Perhaps I was not careful enough about specifics. I meant The
      Patriarchy originating in character and structure with those
      ethnicities who originally frequented the Fertile Crescent -- i.e.,
      the Judeo-Christian and Muslim (chiefly) sociopolitical structure(s)
      whose less attractive authoritarian tendencies have gotten us into so
      much trouble over the last two millenia.
      Rushdie was quite specific about the total craziness of
      fundamentalist theocrats, yes, but he also put the question in its
      proper setting of cross-cultural conflict, and set a whole array of
      troubling avatars like jewels in a rich and troubling tapestry. In
      the end, those who assimilate are those who survive sane. He quite
      literally became a prophet without honor in much of his own culture.
      JM gives us a world in which we have been rescued from the endgames
      of the patriarchy by the Intervention, though let us not forget that
      the post-Rebellion Marc has been its principal engineer. There could,
      for instance, be no Anne Remillard, S.J., with the patriarchy as we
      know it today still in place. We certainly get enough echoes of both
      human and Tanu patriarchy, but that is more time than I have.
      For those who have not read the Dark Tower series ... oh my, there is
      every form of monster and betrayal and holocaust imaginable on the
      way to securing the failing fabric of Time itself, of forestalling
      total chaos. It is a post-apocalyptic world, and the apocalypse keeps
      repeating itself in a thousand exceedingly nasty ways. I mean, let's
      start a nice little war in the Middle East or something so we can get
      away from all these overnuked landscapes and ...
      Oops, time to make a dash for the bus.
      Still persisting
    • Robert Powell
      Hi Alix Never been able to plow through Rushdie s works - I m developing an aversion to anything that even slightly smacks of religion nowadays, I think it s
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 11, 2007
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        Hi Alix

        Never been able to plow through Rushdie's works - I'm developing an
        aversion to anything that even slightly smacks of religion nowadays,
        I think it's something to do with choking in laughter while reading
        some Intelligent Design literature - Michael Behe and the Discovery
        Institute, gotta love those jokers! :-) - so can't argue that one
        with you.

        I can however argue that JM didn't "give(s) us a world in which we
        have been rescued from the endgames of the patriarchy by the
        Intervention". Quite the opposite in fact, only the more fanatical
        aspects of your own named patriarchy's ethos were banned. (Though
        I'm with Richard Dawkins - on this if little else - in believing
        that accepted religious practices such as afflicting small children
        with concepts of torture and suffering to show Hell should equate to
        child abuse.) In fact JM shows a very lenient attitude to this
        patriarchy - even cleaning up the Holy Land after those pesky
        jihadists nuked it - Catholicism in particular comes off quite
        lightly and the Tanu/Firvulag faith remains unassailed even with a
        human on the throne.

        Beyond the islam/judeo/christian religious patriarchy and the socio-
        political climate they induce, the fact remains that despite major
        challenges - e.g. Marc's rebellion or the appearance of The
        Adversary - the structures of oversight, such as the
        military/policing and officialdom and the Governments/ruling class
        of both the Mileu and TMCL themselves remain in essence unchanged.

        The Patriarchy - even in its most non-phalocentric definition - of
        the ruling class, may evolve but it doesn't die.

        BTBG



        --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "alixnc" <alixnc@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Thanks Nicolette, for your generous (and possibly foolhardy)
        > invitation to hold forth, and since I have an unexpected half hour
        to
        > kill ...
        >
        > --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Powell"
        > <pallol@> wrote:
        > >
        > > I've never really seen the series as being about the death of
        > > patriarchy
        >
        > Perhaps I was not careful enough about specifics. I meant The
        > Patriarchy originating in character and structure with those
        > ethnicities who originally frequented the Fertile Crescent --
        i.e.,
        > the Judeo-Christian and Muslim (chiefly) sociopolitical structure
        (s)
        > whose less attractive authoritarian tendencies have gotten us into
        so
        > much trouble over the last two millenia.
        > Rushdie was quite specific about the total craziness of
        > fundamentalist theocrats, yes, but he also put the question in its
        > proper setting of cross-cultural conflict, and set a whole array
        of
        > troubling avatars like jewels in a rich and troubling tapestry. In
        > the end, those who assimilate are those who survive sane. He quite
        > literally became a prophet without honor in much of his own
        culture.
        > JM gives us a world in which we have been rescued from the
        endgames
        > of the patriarchy by the Intervention, though let us not forget
        that
        > the post-Rebellion Marc has been its principal engineer. There
        could,
        > for instance, be no Anne Remillard, S.J., with the patriarchy as
        we
        > know it today still in place. We certainly get enough echoes of
        both
        > human and Tanu patriarchy, but that is more time than I have.
        > For those who have not read the Dark Tower series ... oh my, there
        is
        > every form of monster and betrayal and holocaust imaginable on the
        > way to securing the failing fabric of Time itself, of forestalling
        > total chaos. It is a post-apocalyptic world, and the apocalypse
        keeps
        > repeating itself in a thousand exceedingly nasty ways. I mean,
        let's
        > start a nice little war in the Middle East or something so we can
        get
        > away from all these overnuked landscapes and ...
        > Oops, time to make a dash for the bus.
        > Still persisting
        >
      • Robert Powell
        P.S. Stephen King s The Dark Tower - cop-out ending!!!! Hated it. you might as well as have Roland wake up and say It was all a dream . . .
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 11, 2007
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          P.S. <rant> Stephen King's The Dark Tower - cop-out ending!!!! Hated
          it. you might as well as have Roland wake up and say 'It was all a
          dream . . .'</rant>

          *grin*

          BTBG (Feather's Slightly Ruffled)

          <snip>

          > For those who have not read the Dark Tower series ... oh my, there
          is
          > every form of monster and betrayal and holocaust imaginable on the
          > way to securing the failing fabric of Time itself, of forestalling
          > total chaos. It is a post-apocalyptic world, and the apocalypse
          keeps
          > repeating itself in a thousand exceedingly nasty ways. I mean, let's
          > start a nice little war in the Middle East or something so we can
          get
          > away from all these overnuked landscapes and ...
          > Oops, time to make a dash for the bus.
          > Still persisting
          >
        • grandmster
          Hi Thoughts all, Lets Remember that Aiken himself put the fate of the Kingdom(and the Kingship)in the hands of a woman,when he told Elizabeth that she was the
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 11, 2007
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            Hi Thoughts all,
            Lets Remember that Aiken himself put the fate of the Kingdom(and the
            Kingship)in the hands of a woman,when he told Elizabeth that she was
            the only one with the ability to fend off Marc!!!
            On another note,I've just recalled that many years ago when I was
            reading The Saga of the Exiles for the first time,I was stunned to
            discover that Julian May is a woman,as her style of writing portrays
            a certain masculinity!!!Sincere apologies Julian.Of course it made
            the story that much more impressive and also hilarious at times
            (Rogi's flinching gonads on hearing of Jacks testicular cancer!).
            I may be a little naive to believe that it was'nt JM's intention to
            portray the death of the patriachy or the ascension of the
            matriachy.Whilst Rogi is obviously the most central character and
            with the admission of his faults,is all the more endearing for it,I
            believe that Dennis was central to everything and he certainly didnt
            fail!He was instrumental in bringing about the intervention and
            managed to dispose of the many headed Hydra and ultimately enabled
            Rogi to destroy Fury.
            Long Live Manhood..........if thats ok with the ladies!!!
            Paul.
            ps.I still believe there is a connection between Felice/Culleket and
            Fury(bring on Padster for a good rip roaring argument,we havent had
            one for ages)
            --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Powell"
            <pallol@...> wrote:
            >
            > I've never really seen the series as being about the death of
            > patriarchy, more of the inevitable death of all totalitarian
            > authority and power; patriarchy is just a part of this. Denis, who
            > did fail of course, was certainly the patriarch of his family, but
            > to a degree so was Rogi, who most certainly didn't. Thagdal
            himself,
            > bowed to the authority of the Ship Spouse, and both failed in the
            > face of Aiken Drum's anarchistic rise to power, but Aiken himself
            > ultimately had to relinquish some power to work with the rebels
            > and `free' humans.
            >
            > For me the story is ultimately about how power must be flexible to
            > be sustainable or uncompromising and self-defeating and perhaps how
            > society might need leaders but individuals do not.
            >
            > Here endeth the thought process - brain disengaged, returning to
            > tedium of workplace . . . :-)
            >
            > BTBG
            >
            >
            > --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Nicolette" <nicolel@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi Alix,
            > >
            > > High thoughts to you - I hope you're feeling a bit better!
            > >
            > > You can be off-topic as long as you somehow connect it back to
            > Julian
            > > May. Be creative, even. ^_~
            > >
            > > I am keen to hear your thoughts on how the Exile/Milieu books
            > relate to
            > > the death of the patriarchy (I haven't read the other books you
            > > mentioned, unfortunately).
            > >
            > > You could say that the Milieu books had quite a patriarchal feel -

            > > certainly the Remillard family was chock-full of Alpha Male vibes
            > > *grin* and certainly Bad!Alpha Male Marc (and Fury) wanted to be
            > in
            > > charge.
            > >
            > > Mind you, in the Exile books the Tanu society could be described
            > as
            > > being a matriarchal type, since they worshipped a Goddess. I
            think
            > I
            > > remember a comment from 'Adversary' where Kuhal said they were
            > > fortunate their Goddess tried to guide her people to perfection,
            > > whereas people like Marc would rather force people to be perfect
            > (for
            > > their own good, of course).
            > >
            > > High Thoughts,
            > > - Nicolette :-)
            > >
            > > --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "alixnc" <alixnc@>
            > wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Oh goody, can we do off topic with impunity? I'm still a bit
            > shell
            > > > shocked from the Mother's Day season at the garden center, and
            > would
            > > > really like to know the botanical name for globe amaranth.
            > > > Also, while in mental free fall, I finally realized why it is
            > that
            > > JM's
            > > > Exile/Milieu series, Stephen King's Dark Tower series, and
            > Salman
            > > > Rushdie's 'The Satanic Verses' keep chasing one another's tails
            > > around
            > > > in my overtaxed skull. All three seem strongly related IMHO to
            > the
            > > > death of the patriarchy. Any comment? I'd love to get any
            > feedback
            > > on
            > > > this, short of someone actually coming to take me away.
            > > > Still persisting,
            > > > Alix
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • Padraig Timmins
            ... Mmmm, what? Me? [Shhhhhh! If you keep that up, I ll have to respond and promptly dissolve in to an embarrassing puddle. And I don t want everyone
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 11, 2007
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              > ps.I still believe there is a connection between Felice/Culleket and
              > Fury(bring on Padster for a good rip roaring argument,we havent had
              > one for ages)

              Mmmm, what?  Me?

              [Shhhhhh!  If you keep that up, I'll have to respond and promptly dissolve in to an embarrassing puddle.  And I don't want everyone knowing that at heart I'm a softie!]

              Padster
              The meek mild Janitor




               

              ========================================
              Message Received: Jun 11 2007, 03:48 PM
              From: "grandmster"
              To: Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com
              Cc:
              Subject: [Julian-May-discuss] Re: Off Topic, or Just a Bit Off?

              Hi Thoughts all,
              Lets Remember that Aiken himself put the fate of the Kingdom(and the
              Kingship)in the hands of a woman,when he told Elizabeth that she was
              the only one with the ability to fend off Marc!!!
              On another note,I've just recalled that many years ago when I was
              reading The Saga of the Exiles for the first time,I was stunned to
              discover that Julian May is a woman,as her style of writing portrays
              a certain masculinity! !!Sincere apologies Julian.Of course it made
              the story that much more impressive and also hilarious at times
              (Rogi's flinching gonads on hearing of Jacks testicular cancer!).
              I may be a little naive to believe that it was'nt JM's intention to
              portray the death of the patriachy or the ascension of the
              matriachy.Whilst Rogi is obviously the most central character and
              with the admission of his faults,is all the more endearing for it,I
              believe that Dennis was central to everything and he certainly didnt
              fail!He was instrumental in bringing about the intervention and
              managed to dispose of the many headed Hydra and ultimately enabled
              Rogi to destroy Fury.
              Long Live Manhood..... .....if thats ok with the ladies!!!
              Paul.
              ps.I still believe there is a connection between Felice/Culleket and
              Fury(bring on Padster for a good rip roaring argument,we havent had
              one for ages)
              --- In Julian-May-discuss@ yahoogroups. com, "Robert Powell"
              wrote:
              >
              > I've never really seen the series as being about the death of
              > patriarchy, more of the inevitable death of all totalitarian
              > authority and power; patriarchy is just a part of this. Denis, who
              > did fail of course, was certainly the patriarch of his family, but
              > to a degree so was Rogi, who most certainly didn't. Thagdal
              himself,
              > bowed to the authority of the Ship Spouse, and both failed in the
              > face of Aiken Drum's anarchistic rise to power, but Aiken himself
              > ultimately had to relinquish some power to work with the rebels
              > and `free' humans.
              >
              > For me the story is ultimately about how power must be flexible to
              > be sustainable or uncompromising and self-defeating and perhaps how
              > society might need leaders but individuals do not.
              >
              > Here endeth the thought process - brain disengaged, returning to
              > tedium of workplace . . . :-)
              >
              > BTBG
              >
              >
              > --- In Julian-May-discuss@ yahoogroups. com, "Nicolette"
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi Alix,
              > >
              > > High thoughts to you - I hope you're feeling a bit better!
              > >
              > > You can be off-topic as long as you somehow connect it back to
              > Julian
              > > May. Be creative, even. ^_~
              > >
              > > I am keen to hear your thoughts on how the Exile/Milieu books
              > relate to
              > > the death of the patriarchy (I haven't read the other books you
              > > mentioned, unfortunately) .
              > >
              > > You could say that the Milieu books had quite a patriarchal feel -

              > > certainly the Remillard family was chock-full of Alpha Male vibes
              > > *grin* and certainly Bad!Alpha Male Marc (and Fury) wanted to be
              > in
              > > charge.
              > >
              > > Mind you, in the Exile books the Tanu society could be described
              > as
              > > being a matriarchal type, since they worshipped a Goddess. I
              think
              > I
              > > remember a comment from 'Adversary' where Kuhal said they were
              > > fortunate their Goddess tried to guide her people to perfection,
              > > whereas people like Marc would rather force people to be perfect
              > (for
              > > their own good, of course).
              > >
              > > High Thoughts,
              > > - Nicolette :-)
              > >
              > > --- In Julian-May-discuss@ yahoogroups. com, "alixnc"
              > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Oh goody, can we do off topic with impunity? I'm still a bit
              > shell
              > > > shocked from the Mother's Day season at the garden center, and
              > would
              > > > really like to know the botanical name for globe amaranth.
              > > > Also, while in mental free fall, I finally realized why it is
              > that
              > > JM's
              > > > Exile/Milieu series, Stephen King's Dark Tower series, and
              > Salman
              > > > Rushdie's 'The Satanic Verses' keep chasing one another's tails
              > > around
              > > > in my overtaxed skull. All three seem strongly related IMHO to
              > the
              > > > death of the patriarchy. Any comment? I'd love to get any
              > feedback
              > > on
              > > > this, short of someone actually coming to take me away.
              > > > Still persisting,
              > > > Alix
              > > >
              > >
              >

            • Michael Roser
              High Thoughts, Friends and Fellow Operants: Oh, dear. It distresses me to see anyone, especially all you obviously meta-intelligent operant and sub-operants,
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 13, 2007
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                High Thoughts, Friends and Fellow Operants:
                Oh, dear. It distresses me to see anyone,
                especially all you obviously meta-intelligent operant
                and sub-operants, attempting to boil down eight
                wonderful, mind-expanding books into one central,
                all-encompassing theme. Do any of you really think
                that JM had just ONE idea that she was trying to
                impart to us all when she wrote these books over a
                period of nearly two decades? (Not counting the
                thirty-odd years of note-taking and outlining she did
                before she ever set her fingers to her word-processor
                way back in the Eighties.) That would be like saying
                that the entire human race represents just one
                philosophy, which we can see from this discussion it
                most certainly does not.
                Consider the depth and breadth of the two series,
                my friends. Consider the SCOPE of her vision. It's not
                just ONE theme. It's many. Masculinity vs. femininity,
                violence vs. pacifism, technology vs humanism,
                ignorance vs. intelligence (hmm, perhaps empathy might
                be a better word) and the Ultimate Struggle: Good vs.
                Evil. And on top of that, she was kind enough to
                lecture us on geology, mountaineering, chemistry,
                biology, astrophysics, psychology, shipbuilding and
                operation, politics, economics, sociology, costume
                design, warfare of all sorts...Goddess, the list is
                endless.
                But you all know this, don't you? And you love
                her books, as do I, and know that they were written
                for a deeper and greater purpose than simply to put
                groceries on the table or 'merely' to entertain. Her
                intent was to make you THINK.
                And she succeeded, didn't she? Otherwise you
                would not be debating this, as you are now. I think
                she would smile that wonderful smile of hers to see
                this now. Don't think for a moment that she isn't
                aware of this. My guess is that she's a member of this
                group under an assumed name and if you are reading
                this now, dear lady: Greetings!
                My point, admittedly arrived at somewhat
                tortuously, is that a reductio ad absurdum argument is
                just that: absurd. Think! She gave us a lot to think
                about and the human dynamic is much more than a simple
                Duality. Remember that in your daily lives when you
                try to reduce a complex situation to its lowest common
                denominators. There is always more than you imagine.
                More than you CAN imagine. And that is the grandeur of
                her vision and I KNOW we can all appreciate that.
                By the way, if any of you are interested, I have
                several excellent pictures of JM in full costume as
                Diamond Mask (in flying suit) at the 51st. WorldCon. I
                would like to be able to share these with the group
                and especially with JM herself as she is approaching
                her 75th birthday. Please feel free to contact me at
                this e-mail address if you are interested as I believe
                posting them to the group pics or files section would
                require reducing them considerably in size and density
                and I am loath to do that.
                Love and Peace in the Light of the Goddess
                Michelle/Michael
                (A Duality unto herself)

                --- grandmster <grandmster@...> wrote:

                > Hi Thoughts all,
                > Lets Remember that Aiken himself put the fate of the
                > Kingdom(and the
                > Kingship)in the hands of a woman,when he told
                > Elizabeth that she was
                > the only one with the ability to fend off Marc!!!
                > On another note,I've just recalled that many years
                > ago when I was
                > reading The Saga of the Exiles for the first time,I
                > was stunned to
                > discover that Julian May is a woman,as her style of
                > writing portrays
                > a certain masculinity!!!Sincere apologies Julian.Of
                > course it made
                > the story that much more impressive and also
                > hilarious at times
                > (Rogi's flinching gonads on hearing of Jacks
                > testicular cancer!).
                > I may be a little naive to believe that it was'nt
                > JM's intention to
                > portray the death of the patriachy or the ascension
                > of the
                > matriachy.Whilst Rogi is obviously the most central
                > character and
                > with the admission of his faults,is all the more
                > endearing for it,I
                > believe that Dennis was central to everything and he
                > certainly didnt
                > fail!He was instrumental in bringing about the
                > intervention and
                > managed to dispose of the many headed Hydra and
                > ultimately enabled
                > Rogi to destroy Fury.
                > Long Live Manhood..........if thats ok with the
                > ladies!!!
                > Paul.
                > ps.I still believe there is a connection between
                > Felice/Culleket and
                > Fury(bring on Padster for a good rip roaring
                > argument,we havent had
                > one for ages)
                > --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Robert
                > Powell"
                > <pallol@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > I've never really seen the series as being about
                > the death of
                > > patriarchy, more of the inevitable death of all
                > totalitarian
                > > authority and power; patriarchy is just a part of
                > this. Denis, who
                > > did fail of course, was certainly the patriarch of
                > his family, but
                > > to a degree so was Rogi, who most certainly
                > didn't. Thagdal
                > himself,
                > > bowed to the authority of the Ship Spouse, and
                > both failed in the
                > > face of Aiken Drum's anarchistic rise to power,
                > but Aiken himself
                > > ultimately had to relinquish some power to work
                > with the rebels
                > > and `free' humans.
                > >
                > > For me the story is ultimately about how power
                > must be flexible to
                > > be sustainable or uncompromising and
                > self-defeating and perhaps how
                > > society might need leaders but individuals do not.
                > >
                > > Here endeth the thought process - brain
                > disengaged, returning to
                > > tedium of workplace . . . :-)
                > >
                > > BTBG
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com,
                > "Nicolette" <nicolel@>
                > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Hi Alix,
                > > >
                > > > High thoughts to you - I hope you're feeling a
                > bit better!
                > > >
                > > > You can be off-topic as long as you somehow
                > connect it back to
                > > Julian
                > > > May. Be creative, even. ^_~
                > > >
                > > > I am keen to hear your thoughts on how the
                > Exile/Milieu books
                > > relate to
                > > > the death of the patriarchy (I haven't read the
                > other books you
                > > > mentioned, unfortunately).
                > > >
                > > > You could say that the Milieu books had quite a
                > patriarchal feel -
                >
                > > > certainly the Remillard family was chock-full of
                > Alpha Male vibes
                > > > *grin* and certainly Bad!Alpha Male Marc (and
                > Fury) wanted to be
                > > in
                > > > charge.
                > > >
                > > > Mind you, in the Exile books the Tanu society
                > could be described
                > > as
                > > > being a matriarchal type, since they worshipped
                > a Goddess. I
                > think
                > > I
                > > > remember a comment from 'Adversary' where Kuhal
                > said they were
                > > > fortunate their Goddess tried to guide her
                > people to perfection,
                > > > whereas people like Marc would rather force
                > people to be perfect
                > > (for
                > > > their own good, of course).
                > > >
                > > > High Thoughts,
                > > > - Nicolette :-)
                > > >
                > > > --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com,
                > "alixnc" <alixnc@>
                > > wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Oh goody, can we do off topic with impunity?
                > I'm still a bit
                > > shell
                > > > > shocked from the Mother's Day season at the
                > garden center, and
                > > would
                > > > > really like to know the botanical name for
                > globe amaranth.
                > > > > Also, while in mental free fall, I finally
                > realized why it is
                > > that
                > > > JM's
                > > > > Exile/Milieu series, Stephen King's Dark Tower
                > series, and
                > > Salman
                > > > > Rushdie's 'The Satanic Verses' keep chasing
                > one another's tails
                > > > around
                > > > > in my overtaxed skull. All three seem strongly
                > related IMHO to
                > > the
                > > > > death of the patriarchy. Any comment? I'd love
                > to get any
                > > feedback
                > > > on
                > > > > this, short of someone actually coming to take
                > me away.
                > > > > Still persisting,
                > > > > Alix
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >




                ____________________________________________________________________________________
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              • Robert Powell
                Dear Michael/Michelle (Choose one will you - life is too short for such ambiguity. *grin*) I m sorry you re so distressed, but there really is no need. You see
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 15, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dear Michael/Michelle (Choose one will you - life is too short for
                  such ambiguity. *grin*)

                  I'm sorry you're so distressed, but there really is no need. You see
                  nobody suggested - not even for the tiniest amount and in the most
                  infinitesimal amount of time conceivable - that these wonderful
                  stories had a single central theme - we were/are merely discussing one
                  of the many vibrant and colourful themes that weave and interweave
                  like a fine tapestry throughout these books.

                  Indeed as you so rightly point out, there are many, many different
                  ways to view these books, which is why pretty much each and every
                  member of our little cabal of JM affeciandos has kept reading and
                  re-reading them and finding something new each time.

                  Feel free to join in the discussion, but don't get distressed when we
                  focus on and debate a single nuance - in this site you'll become
                  distressed very often if you do - a quick review of the archived
                  messages will show you that picking a single aspect of the stories and
                  dissecting it to the 'nth degree is a recurring theme in this group;
                  albeit: morality, nobility, power-struggles, alienation, sexual
                  deviation, the recurring argument/non-argument over the origin and
                  nature of Great Carbunkle, the countless intriguing loose ends, or any
                  of the other myriad themes and details that intrigue us in these
                  wondrous stories.

                  Calm dear friend - stress ye not - for you post messages amongst some
                  of the most passionate yet pedantic fans ever brought forth by act of
                  fiction. *smile*

                  As to your photos of JM (excuse me while I melt in to a pool of
                  jealousy at your even having shared breathing space with one of my
                  favourite authors). There is in the menu to your left a section for
                  photos where Nicolette - beloved house mother of us all and all round
                  good egg - will I'm sure guide you through the process of uploading
                  your pictures for all to see.

                  At this point though, sadly, I must add to your mental anguish. You
                  see JM is widely reported as disliking the internet completely and
                  given that she is widely reported to have retired now, is almost
                  infinitely more likely to be off fishing somewhere rather than reading
                  the obsessive ramblings of us the members of this site. So the chances
                  of her browsing the site and finding your pictures are, I regret to
                  inform you, relatively small.

                  Hi Thoughts and Low Misdemeanors

                  BTBG




                  >
                  > High Thoughts, Friends and Fellow Operants:
                  > Oh, dear. It distresses me to see anyone,
                  > especially all you obviously meta-intelligent operant
                  > and sub-operants, attempting to boil down eight
                  > wonderful, mind-expanding books into one central,
                  > all-encompassing theme. Do any of you really think
                  > that JM had just ONE idea that she was trying to
                  > impart to us all when she wrote these books over a
                  > period of nearly two decades? (Not counting the
                  > thirty-odd years of note-taking and outlining she did
                  > before she ever set her fingers to her word-processor
                  > way back in the Eighties.) That would be like saying
                  > that the entire human race represents just one
                  > philosophy, which we can see from this discussion it
                  > most certainly does not.
                  > Consider the depth and breadth of the two series,
                  > my friends. Consider the SCOPE of her vision. It's not
                  > just ONE theme. It's many. Masculinity vs. femininity,
                  > violence vs. pacifism, technology vs humanism,
                  > ignorance vs. intelligence (hmm, perhaps empathy might
                  > be a better word) and the Ultimate Struggle: Good vs.
                  > Evil. And on top of that, she was kind enough to
                  > lecture us on geology, mountaineering, chemistry,
                  > biology, astrophysics, psychology, shipbuilding and
                  > operation, politics, economics, sociology, costume
                  > design, warfare of all sorts...Goddess, the list is
                  > endless.
                  > But you all know this, don't you? And you love
                  > her books, as do I, and know that they were written
                  > for a deeper and greater purpose than simply to put
                  > groceries on the table or 'merely' to entertain. Her
                  > intent was to make you THINK.
                  > And she succeeded, didn't she? Otherwise you
                  > would not be debating this, as you are now. I think
                  > she would smile that wonderful smile of hers to see
                  > this now. Don't think for a moment that she isn't
                  > aware of this. My guess is that she's a member of this
                  > group under an assumed name and if you are reading
                  > this now, dear lady: Greetings!
                  > My point, admittedly arrived at somewhat
                  > tortuously, is that a reductio ad absurdum argument is
                  > just that: absurd. Think! She gave us a lot to think
                  > about and the human dynamic is much more than a simple
                  > Duality. Remember that in your daily lives when you
                  > try to reduce a complex situation to its lowest common
                  > denominators. There is always more than you imagine.
                  > More than you CAN imagine. And that is the grandeur of
                  > her vision and I KNOW we can all appreciate that.
                  > By the way, if any of you are interested, I have
                  > several excellent pictures of JM in full costume as
                  > Diamond Mask (in flying suit) at the 51st. WorldCon. I
                  > would like to be able to share these with the group
                  > and especially with JM herself as she is approaching
                  > her 75th birthday. Please feel free to contact me at
                  > this e-mail address if you are interested as I believe
                  > posting them to the group pics or files section would
                  > require reducing them considerably in size and density
                  > and I am loath to do that.
                  > Love and Peace in the Light of the Goddess
                  > Michelle/Michael
                  > (A Duality unto herself)
                  >
                  > --- grandmster <grandmster@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Hi Thoughts all,
                  > > Lets Remember that Aiken himself put the fate of the
                  > > Kingdom(and the
                  > > Kingship)in the hands of a woman,when he told
                  > > Elizabeth that she was
                  > > the only one with the ability to fend off Marc!!!
                  > > On another note,I've just recalled that many years
                  > > ago when I was
                  > > reading The Saga of the Exiles for the first time,I
                  > > was stunned to
                  > > discover that Julian May is a woman,as her style of
                  > > writing portrays
                  > > a certain masculinity!!!Sincere apologies Julian.Of
                  > > course it made
                  > > the story that much more impressive and also
                  > > hilarious at times
                  > > (Rogi's flinching gonads on hearing of Jacks
                  > > testicular cancer!).
                  > > I may be a little naive to believe that it was'nt
                  > > JM's intention to
                  > > portray the death of the patriachy or the ascension
                  > > of the
                  > > matriachy.Whilst Rogi is obviously the most central
                  > > character and
                  > > with the admission of his faults,is all the more
                  > > endearing for it,I
                  > > believe that Dennis was central to everything and he
                  > > certainly didnt
                  > > fail!He was instrumental in bringing about the
                  > > intervention and
                  > > managed to dispose of the many headed Hydra and
                  > > ultimately enabled
                  > > Rogi to destroy Fury.
                  > > Long Live Manhood..........if thats ok with the
                  > > ladies!!!
                  > > Paul.
                  > > ps.I still believe there is a connection between
                  > > Felice/Culleket and
                  > > Fury(bring on Padster for a good rip roaring
                  > > argument,we havent had
                  > > one for ages)
                  > > --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Robert
                  > > Powell"
                  > > <pallol@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > I've never really seen the series as being about
                  > > the death of
                  > > > patriarchy, more of the inevitable death of all
                  > > totalitarian
                  > > > authority and power; patriarchy is just a part of
                  > > this. Denis, who
                  > > > did fail of course, was certainly the patriarch of
                  > > his family, but
                  > > > to a degree so was Rogi, who most certainly
                  > > didn't. Thagdal
                  > > himself,
                  > > > bowed to the authority of the Ship Spouse, and
                  > > both failed in the
                  > > > face of Aiken Drum's anarchistic rise to power,
                  > > but Aiken himself
                  > > > ultimately had to relinquish some power to work
                  > > with the rebels
                  > > > and `free' humans.
                  > > >
                  > > > For me the story is ultimately about how power
                  > > must be flexible to
                  > > > be sustainable or uncompromising and
                  > > self-defeating and perhaps how
                  > > > society might need leaders but individuals do not.
                  > > >
                  > > > Here endeth the thought process - brain
                  > > disengaged, returning to
                  > > > tedium of workplace . . . :-)
                  > > >
                  > > > BTBG
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com,
                  > > "Nicolette" <nicolel@>
                  > > > wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Hi Alix,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > High thoughts to you - I hope you're feeling a
                  > > bit better!
                  > > > >
                  > > > > You can be off-topic as long as you somehow
                  > > connect it back to
                  > > > Julian
                  > > > > May. Be creative, even. ^_~
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I am keen to hear your thoughts on how the
                  > > Exile/Milieu books
                  > > > relate to
                  > > > > the death of the patriarchy (I haven't read the
                  > > other books you
                  > > > > mentioned, unfortunately).
                  > > > >
                  > > > > You could say that the Milieu books had quite a
                  > > patriarchal feel -
                  > >
                  > > > > certainly the Remillard family was chock-full of
                  > > Alpha Male vibes
                  > > > > *grin* and certainly Bad!Alpha Male Marc (and
                  > > Fury) wanted to be
                  > > > in
                  > > > > charge.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Mind you, in the Exile books the Tanu society
                  > > could be described
                  > > > as
                  > > > > being a matriarchal type, since they worshipped
                  > > a Goddess. I
                  > > think
                  > > > I
                  > > > > remember a comment from 'Adversary' where Kuhal
                  > > said they were
                  > > > > fortunate their Goddess tried to guide her
                  > > people to perfection,
                  > > > > whereas people like Marc would rather force
                  > > people to be perfect
                  > > > (for
                  > > > > their own good, of course).
                  > > > >
                  > > > > High Thoughts,
                  > > > > - Nicolette :-)
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com,
                  > > "alixnc" <alixnc@>
                  > > > wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Oh goody, can we do off topic with impunity?
                  > > I'm still a bit
                  > > > shell
                  > > > > > shocked from the Mother's Day season at the
                  > > garden center, and
                  > > > would
                  > > > > > really like to know the botanical name for
                  > > globe amaranth.
                  > > > > > Also, while in mental free fall, I finally
                  > > realized why it is
                  > > > that
                  > > > > JM's
                  > > > > > Exile/Milieu series, Stephen King's Dark Tower
                  > > series, and
                  > > > Salman
                  > > > > > Rushdie's 'The Satanic Verses' keep chasing
                  > > one another's tails
                  > > > > around
                  > > > > > in my overtaxed skull. All three seem strongly
                  > > related IMHO to
                  > > > the
                  > > > > > death of the patriarchy. Any comment? I'd love
                  > > to get any
                  > > > feedback
                  > > > > on
                  > > > > > this, short of someone actually coming to take
                  > > me away.
                  > > > > > Still persisting,
                  > > > > > Alix
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  ____________________________________________________________________________________
                  > Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone
                  who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
                  > http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433
                  >
                • Imhilien
                  Hi Michelle/Michael, As Robert pointed out, we do tend to discuss single aspects of the series to the nth degree. Hee. I think we re lucky though that with
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 17, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Michelle/Michael,

                    As Robert pointed out, we do tend to discuss single aspects of the
                    series to the nth degree. Hee.

                    I think we're lucky though that with this great series, there's so
                    much you can focus on. I certainly feel that reading the series
                    expanded my mental horizons (and my vocabulary!), which is always a
                    good thing.

                    May I convey my extreme jealousy at your photos of JM in *that*
                    outfit. *sighs* You are certainly welcome to try and post the
                    photos in the Photos or Files section. Failing that, you could
                    always supply a link to them in the Links section as an alternative
                    option.

                    High Thoughts,
                    - Nicolette :-)

                    --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Michael Roser
                    <michelle_rose3@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > High Thoughts, Friends and Fellow Operants:
                    > Oh, dear. It distresses me to see anyone,
                    > especially all you obviously meta-intelligent operant
                    > and sub-operants, attempting to boil down eight
                    > wonderful, mind-expanding books into one central,
                    > all-encompassing theme. Do any of you really think
                    > that JM had just ONE idea that she was trying to
                    > impart to us all when she wrote these books over a
                    > period of nearly two decades? (Not counting the
                    > thirty-odd years of note-taking and outlining she did
                    > before she ever set her fingers to her word-processor
                    > way back in the Eighties.) That would be like saying
                    > that the entire human race represents just one
                    > philosophy, which we can see from this discussion it
                    > most certainly does not.
                    > Consider the depth and breadth of the two series,
                    > my friends. Consider the SCOPE of her vision. It's not
                    > just ONE theme. It's many. Masculinity vs. femininity,
                    > violence vs. pacifism, technology vs humanism,
                    > ignorance vs. intelligence (hmm, perhaps empathy might
                    > be a better word) and the Ultimate Struggle: Good vs.
                    > Evil. And on top of that, she was kind enough to
                    > lecture us on geology, mountaineering, chemistry,
                    > biology, astrophysics, psychology, shipbuilding and
                    > operation, politics, economics, sociology, costume
                    > design, warfare of all sorts...Goddess, the list is
                    > endless.
                    > But you all know this, don't you? And you love
                    > her books, as do I, and know that they were written
                    > for a deeper and greater purpose than simply to put
                    > groceries on the table or 'merely' to entertain. Her
                    > intent was to make you THINK.
                    > And she succeeded, didn't she? Otherwise you
                    > would not be debating this, as you are now. I think
                    > she would smile that wonderful smile of hers to see
                    > this now. Don't think for a moment that she isn't
                    > aware of this. My guess is that she's a member of this
                    > group under an assumed name and if you are reading
                    > this now, dear lady: Greetings!
                    > My point, admittedly arrived at somewhat
                    > tortuously, is that a reductio ad absurdum argument is
                    > just that: absurd. Think! She gave us a lot to think
                    > about and the human dynamic is much more than a simple
                    > Duality. Remember that in your daily lives when you
                    > try to reduce a complex situation to its lowest common
                    > denominators. There is always more than you imagine.
                    > More than you CAN imagine. And that is the grandeur of
                    > her vision and I KNOW we can all appreciate that.
                    > By the way, if any of you are interested, I have
                    > several excellent pictures of JM in full costume as
                    > Diamond Mask (in flying suit) at the 51st. WorldCon. I
                    > would like to be able to share these with the group
                    > and especially with JM herself as she is approaching
                    > her 75th birthday. Please feel free to contact me at
                    > this e-mail address if you are interested as I believe
                    > posting them to the group pics or files section would
                    > require reducing them considerably in size and density
                    > and I am loath to do that.
                    > Love and Peace in the Light of the Goddess
                    > Michelle/Michael
                    > (A Duality unto herself)
                    >
                  • alixnc
                    ... Who was that other fellow that intimated life is a dream? Plato, wasn t it? I didn t judge the ending a copout, even though I, too, hated it. I think
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 20, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Powell" <pallol@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > P.S. <rant> Stephen King's The Dark Tower - cop-out ending!!!! Hated
                      > it. you might as well as have Roland wake up and say 'It was all a
                      > dream . . .'</rant>

                      Who was that other fellow that intimated life is a dream? Plato, wasn't
                      it? I didn't judge the ending a copout, even though I, too, hated it. I
                      think King's pertinent point here is about those who do not learn from
                      history being condemned to repeat it.
                      One final note on the death of the patriarchy theme: This is NOT a
                      question of patriarchy versus matriarchy, nor any form of feminist
                      rant. It is much more a socioeconomic question -- and political, too,
                      of course, the whacked-out fundamentalist authoritarianism of today
                      being nastier even than that of the Christian Inquisitions -- dealing
                      with the inadequacies of local political structure in coping with our
                      grievously overcrowded global village. (Shouldn't there be a joke about
                      Papa Ratzy and the paparazzi in there somewhere?) Oh well ...

                      Still persisting,
                      Alix
                    • Robert Powell
                      ... Now see I never could relate to Ancient Greek Philosophy. Plato and Aristotle were – to me at least - just propagators of earlier myths and their
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 22, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        <snip>

                        > Who was that other fellow that intimated life is a dream? Plato,
                        > wasn't it?

                        Now see I never could relate to Ancient Greek Philosophy. Plato and
                        Aristotle were – to me at least - just propagators of earlier myths
                        and their thoughts, although forming a basis for the evolution of the
                        more complex Existentialists in later years, were too simplistic and
                        belaboured in poetic imagery for me to adopt personally.


                        > I didn't judge the ending a copout, even though I, too, hated it. I
                        > think King's pertinent point here is about those who do not learn
                        > from history being condemned to repeat it.


                        Trite and clichéd – I expect better from King, especially when he is
                        not in `Horror Mode'. I can't remember the last time I was so
                        disappointed in a series of books ending – possible exception of Dune,
                        which despite reading the `Road to Dune', I can't buy into, possibly
                        because the last book(s) really lack Frank Herbert's power of
                        narrative and character but more likely because they've changed the
                        characters and details of what has gone before.


                        > One final note on the death of the patriarchy theme: This is NOT a
                        > question of patriarchy versus matriarchy, nor any form of feminist
                        > rant.

                        Listen everybody that swooshing noise you hear is the sound of Alix
                        back-peddling really really really fast. *grin*

                        I kid, I kid. I kid because I love :-)


                        > It is much more a socioeconomic question -- and political, too,
                        > of course, the whacked-out fundamentalist authoritarianism of today
                        > being nastier even than that of the Christian Inquisitions


                        Debatable – but not by me. I'm largely in agreement that Religions –
                        of all denominations and belief - and Authority are concepts best kept
                        well apart!


                        > -- dealing
                        > with the inadequacies of local political structure in coping with
                        > our grievously overcrowded global village.

                        Let's not forget The Milieu is not always a benevolent structure
                        itself: The death penalty is still in place, heavy-handed Sim.
                        Proctorship, Birth Restrictions, seperation by "ethnic dynanism" all
                        of which, and more, were part of the reason for the Exiles leaving for
                        the MCL in the first place. Yet don't forget when they got there, they
                        found enslavement and violence governed (small g) by religious belief.

                        Far from being the death of Authority the stories tell us that
                        Authority by the few over the many will always prevail.


                        > (Shouldn't there be a joke about
                        > Papa Ratzy and the paparazzi in there somewhere?) Oh well ...

                        No, no there shouldn't . . . and thank you for not adding one. :-)

                        BTBG
                      • alixnc
                        [snippy snippy] ... ... a ... feminist ... Might not you more appropriately say I,goat ? pppbbbbttttthhhh!!! Just recalled one bit I left out of
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jul 23, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          [snippy snippy]
                          --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Powell"
                          <pallol@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > <snip>

                          > > One final note on the death of the patriarchy theme: This is NOT
                          a
                          > > question of patriarchy versus matriarchy, nor any form of
                          feminist
                          > > rant.
                          >
                          > Listen everybody that swooshing noise you hear is the sound of Alix
                          > back-peddling really really really fast. *grin*
                          >
                          > I kid, I kid. I kid because I love :-)
                          >
                          Might not you more appropriately say "I,goat"? pppbbbbttttthhhh!!!
                          Just recalled one bit I left out of that long ago post on the
                          background of Felice's name (the Landry family of Loudun, that French
                          town of Inquisition fame, and later of Acadie, i.e., Nova
                          Scotia).
                          The Landry family, which boasted some of the earliest known Catholic
                          bishops in France, included at least one minor Landry nobleman among
                          the Richlieu lieutenants who railroaded Urbain Grandier right into
                          one of France's most notorious barbecues (there were also a
                          systematic persecution of the Huguenots and, apparently, a sizeable
                          land grab going on). His given name? Victor.
                          Oh, and add to the May-Rushdie-King up the patriarchy list Thomas
                          Pynchon's 'Against the Day'. As much to wade through as the Rushdie,
                          or perhaps Aldous Huxley at his most prolix, but also terribly funny
                          in spots.

                          Still persisting,
                          alix
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