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Re: [Julian-May-discuss] Re: fury

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  • Peter Pigott
    G daY All, It s been some time since my last re-re-read (or post!), so feel free to correct as needed. I believe there is a reference to The Great Carbuncle
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 1, 2005
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      G'daY All,

      It's been some time since my last re-re-read (or post!), so feel free to
      correct as needed. I believe there is a reference to The Great Carbuncle
      being a "construct" (Magnificat ??). Thus would rule out Felice/Culluket.

      Additionally I've always understood Fury to be a persona stemming from
      Denis' trauma due to Don's (and, later, Victor's) corruption of Denis'
      younger siblings. Include also alluded to attempts on Denis himself
      (link to Hydra ?). I can't add much more until I read the series again,
      but I believe a few others here have similar thoughts.

      High Thoughts,
      Peter

      Paul Fitzpatrick wrote:
      > Welcome to the group Haykon
      > I know the passage well and before I read it I believed that the
      > great carbunkle was in fact the object buried in Spain.As for the
      > rest...well...Padster is adamant that their is no connection between
      > fury and Felice,I believe there is....but who's to say wheather right
      > or wrong.Great fun arguing about it though.
      > Paul.
      > --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, HÃ¥kon Mosseby
      > <hakonmos@b...> wrote:
      >> Uhm... well, High thoughts everyone!
      >>
      >> Joined recently, now delurking. Looking forward to discussing
      > anything and all regarding JM with you.
      >> I'll jump right in: Fury?
      >>
      >> Having read most of the previous mails, a thought keeps nagging me.
      > I checked it out looking at the last few pages of the 'Milieu'-books,
      > the 'Exiles'-books and sundry items in the "The Pliocene Companion" -
      > but came up blank. Maybe someone else remembers the same passage,
      > where it is, and what it means with regards to the whole
      > Fury/Denis/Felice/Cull/ melange...
      >> The passage is this: "...reminiscent of a much more sinister object
      > buried in Spain". This is an obvious reference to the Felice/Culluket-
      > "thing". I'm noe sure, but I seem to remember that it is something
      > about Fury that is "reminiscent", but it /may/ be The Great
      > Carbuncle... Does anyone else know?
      >> HÃ¥kon
      >> ----- Original Message -----
      >> From: Padraig Timmins
      >> To: Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com
      >> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 2:56 PM
      >> Subject: Re: [Julian-May-discuss] fury
      >>
      >>
      >> Well debating Christendom is pretty futile, since its clearly a
      > complete fantasy <cough> anyway, moving on...
      >>
      >>
      >> I don’t see the need to think of it in any other terms than it
      > being a peculiarity of metapsychology. Whether or not she got it
      > right cannot be debated. It’s her story, and what’s in it is
      > therefore right, whether we like it or not. But just to be clear,
      > your saying that:
      >>
      >>
      >> > I'm prepared to say that Fury /not/ being Felice / Cullucket is
      > just basically wrong.
      >>
      >>
      >> Therefore you believe Fury IS Felice/Cull? Yeah?
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> In terms of the D-Jump. If Denis is a closet Creative Paramount,
      > then he wouldn’t need a power boost to D-Jump. Marc didn’t need
      > it. Yes at first he needed the CE-Rig to help him at the beginning,
      > but as he developed his power he was able to accomplish D-Jumps under
      > his own steam. For example when he was visiting Elizabeth at Black
      > Cragg, he was able to accomplish the return D-Jump (after leaving the
      > CE-Rig equipment in Hyperspace - I think) barebrained. So a power
      > boost was not needed by Marc to D-Jump. Therefore with this evidence
      > Denis would not have needed a power boost.
      >>
      >>
      >> Yes Marc was aware of the potential for D-Jumping, as it is
      > mentioned in the Saga that some bloke back in the Milieu was capable
      > of it over a couple or miles of so, so he must have been aware, but
      > he wasn’t aware of the fact that Denis could do it. The only time
      > Marc witnessed a D-Jump in the Milieu it was a Russian (yes it was
      > Denis disguised) who did it right in front of him. But even then
      > Marc does not make the connection.
      >>
      >>
      >> Yes, teleportation is one of the more fantastic technologies in
      > Sci-fi and Fantasy. Particularly the Star Trek style, that
      > effectively kills you and then reconstitutes you (a different YOU) at
      > the desired location. And I don’t like this kind of teleport no
      > matter what story it appears in.
      >>
      >>
      >> The version on Saga and Milieu at least requires the individual
      > to move into a different plane of existence and then pop back into
      > our.
      >>
      >>
      >> Anyway, there is still nothing that links Felice/Cull with Fury.
      > Nothing at all.
      >>
      >>
      >> Cheers
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Padster
      >>
      >>
      >>
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    • Maurice Thomas
      Hi, Thoughtsters, A lot of the recent typage appears to have dealt with whether or not someone or someone else was right about Fury - and I ve been the daft
      Message 2 of 9 , Dec 3, 2005
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        Hi, Thoughtsters,

        A lot of the recent typage appears to have dealt with whether or not
        someone or someone else was right about Fury - and I've been the daft
        monkey saying that it was the author that was wrong. I do it a lot. I
        think C.S.Lewis was wrong to suggest that wearing makeup and having sex
        would stop you from going to heaven; I think Stephen Donaldson was wrong
        to write so many extraordinarily boring books.

        In short, I am a contentious little shit.

        However, on the issue of Fury, I really think I need to re-state my
        case. In terms of script, of pace, and of a huge number of thematic
        reasons, it would have been better if the Carbuncle had contained
        Felice/Cullucket.

        1). Humanity infected the past with itself. This ultimately resulted
        in symbolic evil harder than diamond (the Carbuncle was harder than 10
        on Moh's scale). This is what happens if humanity tries to abrogate its
        responsibility for criminality. Simple, visual, pivot to the story, and
        a very common theme - careful what you discard. By sending undesirables
        to the past, humanity affected its future.
        2). Marc tried to destroy EVERYTHING. He and Felice are identically
        guilty after she tried to take the entire Tanu Race - though Cullucket
        as a bit of a pervert is nowhere near as guilty. Felice's atonement is
        to spend six million years with Cullucket; Marc's is to spend a large
        percentage of that time with Elizabeth. Proust has much to say about
        spending eternity with one's friends - imagine that, but with tedious
        people like Cullucket and Elizabeth instead.
        3). By the time we get to 20XX, Marc still hasn't learnt his lesson. He
        is still this ghastly, bossy, Conservative (deliberate large C), who
        seems to be on course to manipulate reality such that he can become god
        of it. Apparently benevolent - but so is the Jewish JAHWEH until he
        invites Abraham to slit Isaac's throat. Abusers of power, both.
        4). Since the story contains a fake GOD, surely to goodness it must
        contain a fake SATAN?
        5). The circularity of the story is obvious and repeatedly mentioned.
        The magic door to the past; the Ourobouros of the Tanu/Fivulag
        tournament; the mysterious immortality of Marc Remillard. Felice was
        clearly conferred the same immortality when imprisoned - but like many
        comic book villains, the author tried to avoid using her again, despite
        the fact that the fans told her that Felice was eminently re-usable.
        Joss Whedon got it - and Faith is clear evidence of that re-use.
        6). "Denis whilst he is asleep" is relatively jolly as a solution, but
        a vastly better solution would have been to have "Denis posessed
        directly by Felice/Cullucket via the conduit of the Great Carbuncle".
        7) The Great Carbuncle would have been an artifact - the most powerful
        psychic amplifier known to man - and thus the basic maguffin for Rogi to
        be able to kick a lot of arse, for Marc to be in touch so frequently
        (because Felice regards Marc as the new "torturer") and for all the
        existing resolutions to take place.

        We will never know whether JM read fan fic stories we all wrote whilst
        waiting for Magnificat, and then changed the story. I hope she didn't,
        but I'm prepared to stick to my guns and say that I think it would have
        been better had she done so.

        Cheers
        Maurice
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