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Re: [Julian-May-discuss] Digest Number 980

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  • Paul Franklin
    Padster wrote: Pretty thin I know, but I think something has to account for Denis being a latent Paramount in all five metafunctions. That makes him on Jack
    Message 1 of 1 , Nov 29, 2005
      Padster wrote:

      "Pretty thin I know, but I think something has to account for Denis being a latent Paramount in all five metafunctions. That makes him on Jack and Diamond’s level, and he is two generation before them, which to my mind simply does not stack up."

      If I remember correctly, somewhere in a thread here it was mentioned that when interviewed, Julian May said that Denis was the most powerful human metaphysic. I don't think Unifex was included in that statement, as I doubt he is barebrained.

      Back to lurking,

      Paul

      =====================
      From: Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Tue Nov 29 16:33:55 CST 2005
      To: Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Julian-May-discuss] Digest Number 980


      There are 3 messages in this issue.

      Topics in this digest:

      1. RE: fury
      From: Padraig Timmins <timmypaddins@...>
      2. Re: fury
      From: "Paul Fitzpatrick" <alexmannion@...>
      3. Re: fury
      From: Maurice Thomas <maurice@...>


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      Message: 1
      Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 15:50:25 +0100 (CET)
      From: Padraig Timmins <timmypaddins@...>
      Subject: RE: fury

      Simple, Fury was Denis’ split personality. Fury could only engage in mental activity when Denis was asleep, until they merged in the failed attempt to purge Fury.

      I can’t remember what state Denis was in when Fury and Unifix had their conversation, but I wouldn’t have thought Fury spoke while Denis was awake. I have just re-read the Galactic Milieu series so I’m a bit miffed that I can’t remember. Will check it out.

      Could the attack on Jack have been some kind of creative zap? Not necessarily the kind of metacreative zap Marc could have used on the Rebel kids, which he could have enacted no matter where they had been in the world, regardless of where he was. Creativity certainly had much better range capabilities than coercion.

      Indeed was it ever specified that Fury’s attack on Jack was a coercive attack? I’m not sure it was, and indeed until it is mentioned in the books that the attack took place, in a conversation or narrative, I didn’t realise it had. I’m not sure it is made clear that an attack was made when the birth is being described, or I may just be too oblivious.

      Actually was the attack made when Denis made contact with Jack, when Jack sorted through his mum’s mind identified Denis and then Jack slammed down his shield? If so then maybe this IS an example of Fury acting even when Denis is awake!!

      Is there a Denis anymore? Yes I think there must have been, otherwise why would Fury have had the inclination to act out Denis’ normal life, when he would have been far more effective in simply pursuing his own agenda?

      Besides, it is made clear on a number of occasions that Fury could not physically intervene to aid his Hydra units. Not until, that is, the failed purging of Fury resulted in the entity being able to take physical control of Denis’ body. I’m no expert in schizophrenia, but I would guess the Denis/Fury duality was just an extremely severe form of it, and then some.

      I don’t think Denis died with Victor. That simply does not stack up when one considers the fact that Fury hated Denis, and pretty much says so if I remember, and would have done everything it could to use Denis’ body to it’s full potential, which until it was able to control the body on a permanent basis, it was not able to do.

      I don’t see the link between Felice/Cull and Denis/Fury in any shape of form.

      And who knew that Davy was Aiken’s father? Even Unifix probably didn’t know until, maybe, Unifix found out that Davy contributed to the non-born sperm pool. Why would anyone have known? Marc never had the chance to analyse Aiken’s DNA, nor, I guess, would Marc have known that Davy contributed to the non-born sperm pool. Sure UNIFIX could have made a guess with the knowledge he gained as Unifix.

      Felice or Cull wouldn’t have known either. How could they have? And there is NO reason to believe that Fury would have known any of this either.

      I don’t think Fury is anything more than an extremely perverse alter ego of Denis, and this is, I believe, supported by plenty of evidence in the books. The more interesting question, I think, is HOW did Fury come about?

      Did Victor actually manage to TRANSFER is consciousness to Denis? Either in actuality, or by replicating/incorporating his neural pathways (and possibly therefore his personality) in to Denis’ mind. After all the Brain has buckets of spare capacity, if experts are to be believed) and a huge storage capacity, so is it possible for a second mentality to reside in there? All the brain is, is a bio-electronic lump of meat (religious beliefs aside), and it could therefore, given the right high-technology or supernatural power (which metapowers must be considered to be) be replicated/transferred/downloaded, etc.

      Or did Victor simply pervert Denis’ mind and cause an ultimately severe form of schizophrenia, which in effect created a second mentality within Denis’ physical brain, but that once created had no link to the dead Victor?

      These two options seem to be to be the only two plausible explanations for Fury’s birth. Particularly, and the one I think fits the bill, the second one.

      But why was it allowed to happen?

      Well, because Denis, being a touch naïve about the possibility of redeeming Victor, left himself totally open to mental invasion and corruption at the time of the prayer. So for Victor there were no mental barriers to penetrate, for under normal circumstances I am sure Victor wouldn’t easily be able to get into Denis’ mind, if at all.

      There is a third option of course, but one that is totally out there. Maybe Victor, in trying to do one of the two options above, let’s say number 2, caused Denis to reverse subsume Victor’s mentality. Once inside Denis; mind Victor would have had free reign and could simply have implanted an overwhelming compulsion to do this. This is almost certainly a no go, as Victor’s body didn’t suffer any Chakra draining marks. But maybe the compulsion also involved a creative reconstitution of the physical aspects of the body, that would otherwise have been reduced to ash.

      Pretty thin I know, but I think something has to account for Denis being a latent Paramount in all five metafunctions. That makes him on Jack and Diamond’s level, and he is two generation before them, which to my mind simply does not stack up.

      Anyway, that’s my thoughts.

      Cheers



      Padster





      ========================================
      Message Received: Nov 26 2005, 12:57 PM
      From: "Paul Fitzpatrick"
      To: Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com
      Cc:
      Subject: [Julian-May-discuss] fury

      High thoughts everyone,
      Sorry for bringing this up again,but just who the hell is fury?
      Yes yes I know that he is Denis's shadow persona,but bear with me a
      moment while I bring a few pointers to your attention.
      All of this is based on the assumption that he is only active when
      Denis is asleep or otherwise switched off.
      1)His first appearance was during the last annual metaconcert by
      Vic's bedside.Rogi held back from joining in and witnessed his
      appearance.We can assume that Victor was still alive and we know that
      Denis was directing the concert so he was awake and active.
      2)During the celebration on Orb when the Human Polity was
      enfranchised,fury had a conversation with Unifex,while Denis was
      again present in the room,dancing with one of the Lylmik(not sure
      about the time frame here).
      3)It is not possible to use coercion at a distance so how is it
      possible that Fury attacked Jack during his birth,when Denis was in
      Hannover(again no proof where Denis actually was at the time)


      Now,I know that Rogi had his showdown with Fury in the chalet on top
      of the mountain,so we know that fury is Denis and vise versa,but here
      is my question....
      Is there a Denis anymore?
      Is it not possible that Denis died at the same time as his brother
      with Fury permanently taking over his body?
      Or is it possible that Fury is Felice/Cull now partially free from
      confinement and able to exert influence.
      After all,Davy McGregor was the great enemy.Why should this be if not
      for the fact that his banked sperm gave rise to Aiken Drum who
      ultimately ended her threat.
      Anyway,thats just my 2 cents worth,Your thoughts and coments would be
      welcome even if only to tell me I'm talking crap.





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      Message: 2
      Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 16:15:41 -0000
      From: "Paul Fitzpatrick" <alexmannion@...>
      Subject: Re: fury

      Padraig,
      Excellent points all,I enjoyed reading them....but a few comments if
      I may.
      In the Exile series(it think it was Adversity)Aiken Drum tells Dougal
      that he is of the McGregor clan and whilst I admit that there is no
      reason for Felice to know this it is not beyond the realms of
      possibility.There are a lot of similarities between Denis and Felice
      in my opinion.Fury seems to recognise the keyring fob and to be
      afraid of it(too close a reminder of its state of being for six
      million years???)Also when fighting Rogi he mentioned that 'love
      failed'.Now I know that this could be said of Denis.but it also
      describes Felice's failure with her own parents,with Sister Roccaro
      and with Culluket.'Is there an end to the fury'.......after 6 million
      years......perhaps.I dont know,but it just makes me wonder and I will
      eagerly await the thoughts of some of our fellow MCL maniacs.
      Lastly,I dont for one second discount your last comment,far fetched
      and all as it seems.I think it could be a perfectly reasonable
      possibility.We dont know that a chakra drain actually destroyes the
      victims body,only that Fury and Hydra did it.I like the idea of
      subsumsion very much and there is a precedent isnt there?????


      Anyway,
      Thanks for your comments,I eagerly await our next argument.It would
      be a good debating topic for our convention..
      Paul.

      Certainly there was no actual attack on Jack in Utero,Just a lurking
      menace if I remember correctly which Rogi was able to best but I cant
      buy into the creative blast type of attack.I like your idea of the
      attack during the head sked between Rogi and Denis,though.
      Another point which I failed to mention in my previous is this.After
      the failed attack on Margaret Strayhorn at the Holloween dinner,Fury
      said to the Hydra that their education would continue on the way to
      Orb and that it would be painful.Further,we know that Denis didnt
      travel with the rest of the family because of his collaboration with
      Severin on their book.So again,how was this painful instruction
      administered?
      --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Padraig Timmins
      <timmypaddins@f...> wrote:
      >
      > Simple, Fury was Denis’ split personality. Fury could only
      engage in mental activity when Denis was asleep, until they merged in
      the failed attempt to purge Fury.
      >
      > I can’t remember what state Denis was in when Fury and Unifix had
      their conversation, but I wouldn’t have thought Fury spoke while
      Denis was awake. I have just re-read the Galactic Milieu series so
      I’m a bit miffed that I can’t remember. Will check it out.
      >
      > Could the attack on Jack have been some kind of creative zap? Not
      necessarily the kind of metacreative zap Marc could have used on the
      Rebel kids, which he could have enacted no matter where they had been
      in the world, regardless of where he was. Creativity certainly had
      much better range capabilities than coercion.
      >
      > Indeed was it ever specified that Fury’s attack on Jack was a
      coercive attack? I’m not sure it was, and indeed until it is
      mentioned in the books that the attack took place, in a conversation
      or narrative, I didn’t realise it had. I’m not sure it is made
      clear that an attack was made when the birth is being described, or I
      may just be too oblivious.
      >
      > Actually was the attack made when Denis made contact with Jack,
      when Jack sorted through his mum’s mind identified Denis and then
      Jack slammed down his shield? If so then maybe this IS an example of
      Fury acting even when Denis is awake!!
      >
      > Is there a Denis anymore? Yes I think there must have been,
      otherwise why would Fury have had the inclination to act out Denis’
      normal life, when he would have been far more effective in simply
      pursuing his own agenda?
      >
      > Besides, it is made clear on a number of occasions that Fury could
      not physically intervene to aid his Hydra units. Not until, that is,
      the failed purging of Fury resulted in the entity being able to take
      physical control of Denis’ body. I’m no expert in schizophrenia,
      but I would guess the Denis/Fury duality was just an extremely severe
      form of it, and then some.
      >
      > I don’t think Denis died with Victor. That simply does not stack
      up when one considers the fact that Fury hated Denis, and pretty much
      says so if I remember, and would have done everything it could to use
      Denis’ body to it’s full potential, which until it was able to
      control the body on a permanent basis, it was not able to do.
      >
      > I don’t see the link between Felice/Cull and Denis/Fury in any
      shape of form.
      >
      > And who knew that Davy was Aiken’s father? Even Unifix probably
      didn’t know until, maybe, Unifix found out that Davy contributed to
      the non-born sperm pool. Why would anyone have known? Marc never
      had the chance to analyse Aiken’s DNA, nor, I guess, would Marc
      have known that Davy contributed to the non-born sperm pool. Sure
      UNIFIX could have made a guess with the knowledge he gained as Unifix.
      >
      > Felice or Cull wouldn’t have known either. How could they have?
      And there is NO reason to believe that Fury would have known any of
      this either.
      >
      > I don’t think Fury is anything more than an extremely perverse
      alter ego of Denis, and this is, I believe, supported by plenty of
      evidence in the books. The more interesting question, I think, is
      HOW did Fury come about?
      >
      > Did Victor actually manage to TRANSFER is consciousness to Denis?
      Either in actuality, or by replicating/incorporating his neural
      pathways (and possibly therefore his personality) in to Denis’
      mind. After all the Brain has buckets of spare capacity, if experts
      are to be believed) and a huge storage capacity, so is it possible
      for a second mentality to reside in there? All the brain is, is a
      bio-electronic lump of meat (religious beliefs aside), and it could
      therefore, given the right high-technology or supernatural power
      (which metapowers must be considered to be) be
      replicated/transferred/downloaded, etc.
      >
      > Or did Victor simply pervert Denis’ mind and cause an ultimately
      severe form of schizophrenia, which in effect created a second
      mentality within Denis’ physical brain, but that once created had
      no link to the dead Victor?
      >
      > These two options seem to be to be the only two plausible
      explanations for Fury’s birth. Particularly, and the one I think
      fits the bill, the second one.
      >
      > But why was it allowed to happen?
      >
      > Well, because Denis, being a touch naïve about the possibility of
      redeeming Victor, left himself totally open to mental invasion and
      corruption at the time of the prayer. So for Victor there were no
      mental barriers to penetrate, for under normal circumstances I am
      sure Victor wouldn’t easily be able to get into Denis’ mind, if
      at all.
      >
      > There is a third option of course, but one that is totally out
      there. Maybe Victor, in trying to do one of the two options above,
      let’s say number 2, caused Denis to reverse subsume Victor’s
      mentality. Once inside Denis; mind Victor would have had free reign
      and could simply have implanted an overwhelming compulsion to do
      this. This is almost certainly a no go, as Victor’s body didn’t
      suffer any Chakra draining marks. But maybe the compulsion also
      involved a creative reconstitution of the physical aspects of the
      body, that would otherwise have been reduced to ash.
      >
      > Pretty thin I know, but I think something has to account for Denis
      being a latent Paramount in all five metafunctions. That makes him
      on Jack and Diamond’s level, and he is two generation before them,
      which to my mind simply does not stack up.
      >
      > Anyway, that’s my thoughts.
      >
      > Cheers
      >
      >
      >
      > Padster
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ========================================
      > Message Received: Nov 26 2005, 12:57 PM
      > From: "Paul Fitzpatrick"
      > To: Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com
      > Cc:
      > Subject: [Julian-May-discuss] fury
      >
      > High thoughts everyone,
      > Sorry for bringing this up again,but just who the hell is fury?
      > Yes yes I know that he is Denis's shadow persona,but bear with me a
      > moment while I bring a few pointers to your attention.
      > All of this is based on the assumption that he is only active
      when
      > Denis is asleep or otherwise switched off.
      > 1)His first appearance was during the last annual metaconcert by
      > Vic's bedside.Rogi held back from joining in and witnessed his
      > appearance.We can assume that Victor was still alive and we know
      that
      > Denis was directing the concert so he was awake and active.
      > 2)During the celebration on Orb when the Human Polity was
      > enfranchised,fury had a conversation with Unifex,while Denis was
      > again present in the room,dancing with one of the Lylmik(not sure
      > about the time frame here).
      > 3)It is not possible to use coercion at a distance so how is it
      > possible that Fury attacked Jack during his birth,when Denis was in
      > Hannover(again no proof where Denis actually was at the time)
      >
      >
      > Now,I know that Rogi had his showdown with Fury in the chalet on
      top
      > of the mountain,so we know that fury is Denis and vise versa,but
      here
      > is my question....
      > Is there a Denis anymore?
      > Is it not possible that Denis died at the same time as his brother
      > with Fury permanently taking over his body?
      > Or is it possible that Fury is Felice/Cull now partially free from
      > confinement and able to exert influence.
      > After all,Davy McGregor was the great enemy.Why should this be if
      not
      > for the fact that his banked sperm gave rise to Aiken Drum who
      > ultimately ended her threat.
      > Anyway,thats just my 2 cents worth,Your thoughts and coments would
      be
      > welcome even if only to tell me I'm talking crap.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > SPONSORED LINKS Science fiction and fantasy Author Author of
      > New author Author web site Dvd author
      >
      >
      >
      > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
      >
      > Visit your group "Julian-May-discuss" on the web.
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > Julian-May-discuss-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
      Service.
      >






      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 3
      Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 21:33:30 +0000
      From: Maurice Thomas <maurice@...>
      Subject: Re: fury

      So are we going to let JM off with the "oh it's all terribly advanced
      metapsychology" argument, which means pretty much we can debate this
      until the end of Christendom, glaciation, and Coca bloody Cola?

      Or are we going to stand up as a group and accept that our personal
      sainted Clio got it wrong in her own story? Few storytellers get it
      absolutely right - Philip Pullman /would insist/ on including the whirly
      wheelers in Amber Spyglass, which were utter rubbish - and I'm prepared
      to say that Fury /not/ being Felice / Cullucket is just basically
      wrong. JM WAS WRONG.

      HOW DARE I ! (That's me banned from the secret club of super fans).

      Denis and Victor are magnified aspirations of Rogi and Don, it is true,
      and the magnification of their powers as various strands of psychic
      talent are shunted together by AU is indeed visible, but at no point is
      the extraordinary power boost assembled that would allow Denis/Fury to
      D-JUMP.

      Prima Facie Evidence, people : In Non-Born King, Marc Remillard, CE
      Enhanced God of a Thousand Worlds at the head of the entire Tanu army,
      goes on the fritz for a second, and then yells at Aiken "Christ! She
      D-JUMPED!". He is surprised by this action, which takes place a few
      years after the galactic rebellion back in the Pliocene. This suggests,
      of course, that he is unaccustomed to it (D-Jumping) as a citizen of the
      milieu. Yet as the foremost psychic of said milieu at the time of his
      departure (bar Jack), surely he would have been aware of its potential?
      Teleportation has always been fascinating, if immensely silly.

      The point is, though : nowhere before this point do we see access to
      power anywhere close to that which the Fury wields, and which the
      personae of the hydra are taught. The concept of the parent being more
      powerful than the child is a constant in the books - but so is the
      constant of evolution, such that once the child is an adult, the prior
      constraints fall away. And for goodness sake - Felice / Cullucket is
      described as "a dark temenos, waiting for fuel"; Fury is "newborn,
      inevitably". Out Of What ?

      Allow one's audience a little intelligence, for Nodonn's sake - as it
      stands, the explanation reads as if Agatha Christie heard from her fans
      that they thought the Maid did it - which was right - but then she
      changed it so that the Otter did it. Even though the title was the
      "Special Island that was Allergic to Otters with a Ten Mile Otter
      Exclusion Zone where the Maid Was Covered in Blood Murder".

      I think the problem is that authors rarely expect their fans to remember
      every syllable of their work. Joss Whedon is a writer who does work
      along those lines - bits from Buffy series 2 surface in series 7 - but
      mostly this doesn't happen.

      Still loving your work, Mrs M.


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