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Re: Contradictions

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  • Holly Atkinson
    Greetings group! been a while since I ve logged on, so I thought I d join this interesting character assessment of our favourite egotist... ... his
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 2, 2001
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      Greetings group! been a while since I've logged on, so I thought I'd
      join this interesting character assessment of our favourite egotist...

      >However, it seems in the Exiles books there's a darker edge now to
      his coercion-charm

      How could anyone disagree with this, really? The interesting thing
      to this idea is why...that May "fell in love with" Marc is a pretty
      interesting theory, one I hadn't really thought about before, but it
      goes towards her consumate skill as a storyteller that her link to
      her characters was that strong.

      Personally, and maybe my teenage mind is being a little simplistic
      here, but it seems to me that Marc was simply seriously pissed off
      that the Milieu (and his future self *chuckle*) had thwarted all of
      his plans for Mental Man. As Rogi himself tells us, the only reason
      Marc got involved in the Rebellion in the first place was because his
      monumental ego couldn't stand the idea of losing control of his own
      mind, and later because the Concilium attempted to shut down Mental
      Man. Perhaps the former was due to the fact that, even with Cyndia,
      Marc never experienced true unconditional love ... hmmm, do I feel
      another discussion topic coming on? :)

      Malama says at the beginning of Magnificat:
      "Deep in his heart, Marc thought the war against the Galactic Milieu
      and its Unity was justified, as his followers did. But the Mental
      Man project was quite different. He knew it was wrong, and yet he
      couldn't resist the awful elegance of the concept ... Unifex is too
      ashamed to talk about it. Even now."

      So perhaps Marc turned from the misdirected and charismatic genius of
      the Milieu series into the sadistic (i agree with previous posts
      there) and cruel Abaddon of the Pliocene because, along with being a
      major crankypants about his pet science project being binned by his
      incestuous and insane younger sister, being defeated in an
      interstellar war, exiled to a prehistoric living hell in the middle
      of an extra-terrestrial outpost on Earth where he could really cut
      loose and no-one would care ... I had a point here somewhere ... oh
      yes, all of which was guaranteed to give a saint a major kill-crush-
      destroy kinda vibe, but Marc also continued to pursue something which
      he knew was morally wrong. And we're talking about MARC here, so
      those are some pretty loose morals (the guy married his half-sister,
      people!)

      So, after clogging up everybody's mailboxes with my pages of rambling
      and several-hundred-word-long sentences, my point would be? Marc had
      a bug up his arse for most of the Pliocene series which was staying
      quite happily up there because he couldn't get past his anger,
      regret, bitterness and subconscious disgust at himself due to his
      past actions. He certainly needed all of those 6 million years to
      atone.

      Holly

      "You know sometimes Marc, you're a real primo prick"
      -Jack, DM
    • Ian J Greely
      ... Is there a contradiction? Not sure how many of lifes darker roads others here have walked down but the old adage He who believes that small sins do no
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 2, 2001
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        On Sun, 1 Apr 2001 12:52:46 +1200 (NZST), you wrote:

        >First of all, ignore my other message - I accidently sent it while I was in
        >the middle of writing [hangs head in shame]
        >
        >Hi there,
        >
        >>Here's a random thought. Has anyone else noticed that there seem to
        >>be contradictions between Marc as portrayed in Exiles and Marc as
        >>portrayed in the Milieu?
        >
        >>First of all, throughout Exiles references are made to his use
        >>of "coercive manipulation" and "mind-violation" (The Adversary, page
        >>123, Del Rey edition). Yet, as far as I can tell, the only real coercion
        >Marc and the Rebels used was basic charisma, which was hardly "mind-violation"
        >>in any sense
        >

        Is there a contradiction? Not sure how many of lifes darker roads
        others here have walked down but the old adage "He who believes that
        small sins do no harm is on a slippery slope" would strike me as being
        the truism here.

        I must say I find that the conversation reminds me of Kurt Vonnegut
        writing about Kilgor Trouts novel about a robotic bomber pilot who was
        disliked at parties. Not because he dropped bombs on flesh and blood
        but because he had halitosis. doh(!)

        In the Milleu series Mark *killed* several BILLIONS of minds. Having
        this on ones conscience what else would be removed from you. Do people
        *really* think that torturing ones own child is more of a crime than
        killing billions. Is a child abuser more or less of a monster than
        Hitler? ...

        Keep in mind all of the background May has given us. The operant child
        is indoctrinated from childhood. The social setting of the operant
        family. Blowing up the Krondaku is the boy child finally having his
        fight with father. Only (unluckily for Marc) he actually managed to
        cause damage. As in real life he got kicked out of the house (read
        Milleu) and spent a while sulking around as a (semi) adult in the
        kindergarten of Exile.

        He *knows* that *he* wasn't capable of generating this reprieve. It is
        his future self that arranges it.

        Now given all the people I've seen go down these roads in life the
        behaviour pattern (including the redemption) is simply par for the
        course.

        Take away the Smoke and Mirrors of the mindpowers and the story is a
        rather interesting examination of growing up. In *our* distant past if
        you had big muscles you were King. Might was right. Now it's the turn
        of intelligence. This story examines switching the major social status
        deciding factor to "mindpower". The mechanics are still essentialy the
        same. I see no difference in the scene where Paul mind reams his
        siblings than a big bully brother beating upon his siblings.

        The rather distressing thing is that everyone wants to be the bully.


        >
        >- Nicolette :-)
        >
        >"A prayer! That's what they want to zap us with boys!"
        >
        >
        >
        >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        >Julian-May-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
        >
        >
        >
        >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
      • nicolel@iconz.co.nz
        Hi Holly, ... I m not meaning to be a nit-picker but Marc didn t know Cyndia was his half-sister when he met her - though his nutcase sister Madeleine was
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 3, 2001
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          Hi Holly,

          > And we're talking about MARC here, so those are some pretty loose
          > morals (the guy married his half-sister, people!)

          I'm not meaning to be a nit-picker but Marc didn't know Cyndia was
          his half-sister when he met her - though his nutcase sister Madeleine
          was eagerly planning to get her hands on Marc so he could breed her
          Hydra babies (all together now, "aarrgh!!" ). Nevertheless, I agree
          Marc did have 'loose morals' (to put it lightly!).

          High Thoughts,

          - Nicolette :-)

          "But she's more of a black hole than a black sheep"
        • Leticia Anderson
          ... I just found this review on Amazon which mirrors some of these issues about contradiction within the series. Though for the record I woul probably label
          Message 4 of 12 , May 6, 2001
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            --- In Julian-May-discuss@y..., aenigmatica@h... wrote:
            > Here's a random thought. Has anyone else noticed that there seem to
            > be contradictions between Marc as portrayed in Exiles and Marc as
            > portrayed in the Milieu? And they're not of the kind that can be
            > explained by the passage of time for the character.

            I just found this review on Amazon which mirrors some of these issues
            about contradiction within the series. Though for the record I woul
            probably label them 'incongruities' or 'ambiguities' rather than
            contradictions - try reading the Darkover series over and over and
            you'll see contradictions!

            " A disappointment, March 16, 2001
            Reviewer: A reader from North America
            Like a lot of people, I remember reading the Saga of thePliocene
            Exile in the 80s, and liking it very much. Her later 'prequels' pale
            in comparison. Boring. Not only boring but badly written. Reading the
            prequels prior to reading the saga is painful. There is little to no
            continuity. Worse, the whole Fury/Hydra plot is painful to read, and
            executed badly, being strung out for so long. It is a weak plot to
            hang a trilogy on. Who is Fury? The better question is, who cares?

            Continuity plot points that make no sense:

            1. In the pliocene saga, people have trouble telepathically speaking
            across thousands of kilometres, yet in the prequels, they regularly
            speak across light-years. LIGHT-YEARS! Come on, pick a distance and
            stick with it.

            2. The whole rebellion. It is described one way in the saga, and
            totally different in the prequels.

            3. In general, things seem thrown together, to satisfy plot points
            she has established earlier. In the saga, Jack and Diamond Mask are
            seen as revered figures, yet nothing like that is set up in the
            prequels.

            Characterization. Marc in the saga is _bad_. Not a nice person. Here,
            he is characterized as someone pushed into something that he didn't
            necessarily want to be a part of. He turns 'bad' in this book at the
            drop of a hat. It makes no sense.

            This was a disappointment to me and I think to anyone who has a
            fondness for the saga. I would recommend _not_ reading it. It sure
            shouldn't be seen as part of a whole, but even on it's own it is
            painful to read. There just doesn't seem to be any heart. It reads
            like a documentary. _Boring_."

            Any comments?
            Leda
          • Leticia Anderson
            BRAVO Holly, I think you hit the nail on the head here....{see below for Holly s post} As for the comment: Perhaps the former was due to the fact that, even
            Message 5 of 12 , May 6, 2001
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              BRAVO Holly, I think you hit the nail on the head here....{see below
              for Holly's post}

              As for the comment:
              Perhaps the former was due to the fact that, even with Cyndia,
              > Marc never experienced true unconditional love ... hmmm, do I feel
              > another discussion topic coming on? :)

              I think there definitely is a topic there...and I'll jump in first
              and say that i think Marc did love Jack (and Cyndia) as
              wholeheartedly as possible. But he was a wee bit of an emotional
              cripple and maybe that was all he could give. Rogi himself believed
              that Marc found 'true' love only with Elizabeth...but then he was
              never around in Exile anyway was he.
              I think these are important points we should remember about Marc in
              exile but - that he had killed the people he loved best in the world
              just before he came into Exile. And being who he was I think that
              would have meant more to him than all the Krondaku on their planet
              and all the humans on Okanagon. Or even all his family and his wife's
              family and his brother's inlaws who died for him or because of him.
              I think that Marc's love for Jack was whole hearted, at least in the
              beginning, if only because of his youth when he 'fell in love' with
              his baby brother'. But obviously he hurt Jack a lot with his
              insensitivity. And the same with Cyndia. I really likedCyndia and I
              think Marc did love her but for two reasons I will defer to Rogi's
              judgement that the root of Marc's affection for her was sexual. a)
              she was the first to really touch him in his icy virginity (since he
              didn't remember sleeping with his other sister), and b) because Maddy
              and Fury had worked quite well on his mind to make sure he would
              become obsessed with his sister. Even though he hated everything
              Maddy was if he had seen her first he probably would have fallen for
              her and married her the way he did with Cyndia.

              An interesting aside on that topic...how many people have been to
              Stewart Blandon's website which has a 'creat-a-milieu-character'
              page? It's lots of fun anyway....someone with a brilliantly active
              mind had filled out a form on that page making themselves such-and-
              such Remillard, *brother* of Elizabeth Orme. How could this be?
              Because Elizabeth and her brother were the children (or
              grandchildren, I can't quite recall) of Paul Remillard, who had had
              an affair with an operant Denali woman!! And of course that is why
              when Marc and Elizabeth met in exile they immediately recognised the
              consanguinty of their minds....

              Signing off,
              Leda

              PS - I changed the colour schematics on the groups page, what does
              everyone think? IT's very garish but that's okay I guess!
              --- In Julian-May-discuss@y..., "Holly Atkinson" <holly@p...> wrote:
              > Greetings group! been a while since I've logged on, so I thought
              I'd
              > join this interesting character assessment of our favourite
              egotist...
              >
              > >However, it seems in the Exiles books there's a darker edge now to
              > his coercion-charm
              >
              > How could anyone disagree with this, really? The interesting thing
              > to this idea is why...that May "fell in love with" Marc is a pretty
              > interesting theory, one I hadn't really thought about before, but
              it
              > goes towards her consumate skill as a storyteller that her link to
              > her characters was that strong.
              >
              > Personally, and maybe my teenage mind is being a little simplistic
              > here, but it seems to me that Marc was simply seriously pissed off
              > that the Milieu (and his future self *chuckle*) had thwarted all of
              > his plans for Mental Man. As Rogi himself tells us, the only
              reason
              > Marc got involved in the Rebellion in the first place was because
              his
              > monumental ego couldn't stand the idea of losing control of his own
              > mind, and later because the Concilium attempted to shut down Mental
              > Man. Perhaps the former was due to the fact that, even with
              Cyndia,
              > Marc never experienced true unconditional love ... hmmm, do I feel
              > another discussion topic coming on? :)
              >
              > Malama says at the beginning of Magnificat:
              > "Deep in his heart, Marc thought the war against the Galactic
              Milieu
              > and its Unity was justified, as his followers did. But the Mental
              > Man project was quite different. He knew it was wrong, and yet he
              > couldn't resist the awful elegance of the concept ... Unifex is too
              > ashamed to talk about it. Even now."
              >
              > So perhaps Marc turned from the misdirected and charismatic genius
              of
              > the Milieu series into the sadistic (i agree with previous posts
              > there) and cruel Abaddon of the Pliocene because, along with being
              a
              > major crankypants about his pet science project being binned by his
              > incestuous and insane younger sister, being defeated in an
              > interstellar war, exiled to a prehistoric living hell in the middle
              > of an extra-terrestrial outpost on Earth where he could really cut
              > loose and no-one would care ... I had a point here somewhere ... oh
              > yes, all of which was guaranteed to give a saint a major kill-crush-
              > destroy kinda vibe, but Marc also continued to pursue something
              which
              > he knew was morally wrong. And we're talking about MARC here, so
              > those are some pretty loose morals (the guy married his half-
              sister,
              > people!)
              >
              > So, after clogging up everybody's mailboxes with my pages of
              rambling
              > and several-hundred-word-long sentences, my point would be? Marc
              had
              > a bug up his arse for most of the Pliocene series which was staying
              > quite happily up there because he couldn't get past his anger,
              > regret, bitterness and subconscious disgust at himself due to his
              > past actions. He certainly needed all of those 6 million years to
              > atone.
              >
              > Holly
              >
              > "You know sometimes Marc, you're a real primo prick"
              > -Jack, DM
            • nicolel@iconz.co.nz
              Hi Leda, ... I haven t heard back from Del Rey either (mutter, mutter). ... Hmm…when the time gate was open, it was a handy escape route for the thousands of
              Message 6 of 12 , May 8, 2001
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                Hi Leda,

                --- In Julian-May-discuss@y..., "Leticia Anderson" <leda_au@y...>
                wrote:
                > Just as an update, I haven't heard anything further from DelRey or
                > Voyager (who are the most recent JM publishers) about Boreal Moon.
                > Anyone else heard anything?
                > Looks like we might just have to wait and find out....
                >
                > Leda

                I haven't heard back from Del Rey either (mutter, mutter).


                >How many people (how many 'inevitable misfits') read the series and
                >imagined how they would outfit themselves to pass through the Gate,
                >from one Brave New World to another? How many people were like
                >Mercy, fiding solace in work or fantasy or drugs but really not
                >filling the gap (a gap which could never be filled in the modern
                >world...). [BTW did anyone ever notice that Mercy took cannabis
                >seeds with her into Exile?? ha ha ha].

                Hmm…when the time gate was open, it was a handy escape route for the
                thousands of misfits who went through. In the books (Magnificat, I
                think) it's mentioned that after the mass exodus back to the future
                the time gate is destroyed forever. But what would happen to future
                misfits who feel out of place in the Milieu, but don't have that
                escape route anymore...


                --- In Julian-May-discuss@y..., "Leticia Anderson" <leda_au@y...>
                wrote:
                > --- In Julian-May-discuss@y..., aenigmatica@h... wrote:
                > > Here's a random thought. Has anyone else noticed that there seem
                to
                > > be contradictions between Marc as portrayed in Exiles and Marc as
                > > portrayed in the Milieu? And they're not of the kind that can be
                > > explained by the passage of time for the character.
                >
                > I just found this review on Amazon which mirrors some of these
                issues
                > about contradiction within the series. Though for the record I woul
                > probably label them 'incongruities' or 'ambiguities' rather than
                > contradictions - try reading the Darkover series over and over and
                > you'll see contradictions!
                >
                > " A disappointment, March 16, 2001
                > Reviewer: A reader from North America
                > Like a lot of people, I remember reading the Saga of thePliocene
                > Exile in the 80s, and liking it very much. Her later 'prequels'
                > pale in comparison. Boring. Not only boring but badly written.
                > Reading the prequels prior to reading the saga is painful. There is
                > little to no continuity. Worse, the whole Fury/Hydra plot is
                > painful to read, and executed badly, being strung out for so long.
                > It is a weak plot to hang a trilogy on. Who is Fury? The better
                > question is, who cares?

                Obviously this guy didn't like the prequels, but really, that's
                his/her problem. I too would call the things pointed out as
                ambiguities, rather than glaring plot holes he/her seems to think.

                High Thoughts

                - Nicolette :-)
              • nicolel@iconz.co.nz
                Hi, Firstly, welcome Evasion to this happy bunch of rebels :-) and no, unfortunately I ve never come across a copy of Brede s Tale (sniff). ... I laughed when
                Message 7 of 12 , May 14, 2001
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                  Hi,

                  Firstly, welcome Evasion to this happy bunch of rebels :-) and no,
                  unfortunately I've never come across a copy of Brede's Tale (sniff).

                  > An interesting aside on that topic...how many people have been to
                  > Stewart Blandon's website which has a 'creat-a-milieu-character'
                  > page? It's lots of fun anyway....someone with a brilliantly active
                  > mind had filled out a form on that page making themselves such-and-
                  > such Remillard, *brother* of Elizabeth Orme. How could this be?
                  > Because Elizabeth and her brother were the children (or
                  > grandchildren, I can't quite recall) of Paul Remillard, who had had
                  > an affair with an operant Denali woman!! And of course that is why
                  > when Marc and Elizabeth met in exile they immediately recognised
                  > the consanguinty of their minds....

                  I laughed when I saw that entry. So, this person is implying that
                  Marc is only attracted to close relatives.... (aah!!)

                  Attn newbies - if you've ever dreamed of being an egotistical
                  Paramount Remillard, ^_^ hop along to Stewart's site (go
                  to 'Bookmarks').

                  > PS - I changed the colour schematics on the groups page, what does
                  > everyone think? IT's very garish but that's okay I guess!

                  It's OK. Why yes, I *always* wear sunglasses when I'm surfing the
                  net, really.... ;-)

                  High Thoughts,

                  - Nicolette :-)

                  "All the way across. Now."
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