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Re: TMCL chap. 18; The Tanu Language

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  • Nicolette Lewer
    Hi Oliver, No, it s never too late to add something new to the discussion (grin). I admit I haven t had the chance to put my usual two cents in (real life has
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 31, 2005
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      Hi Oliver,

      No, it's never too late to add something new to the discussion (grin).
      I admit I haven't had the chance to put my usual two cents in (real
      life has got in the way again, bah), but your input is welcome.

      I am no language expert but the mentioned verse does indeed give you
      something to think about...

      High Thoughts
      - Nicolette :-)


      --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "OLIVER MUNDY"
      <oliver.mundy@t...> wrote:
      > I hope it is not too late to drop something into this
      discussion.
      >
      > Chapter 18 ends with an entire verse of the Tanu Song in its
      > original language - I believe this is the longest specimen of that
      language
      > given anywhere in the books - and this prompts me to wonder about the
      > structure and vocabulary of that language. Has JM ever vouchsafed,
      or has
      > anyone else ever guessed, anything further about it? 'Pliocene
      Companion'
      > translates a few individual words or phrases but goes no further.
      >
      > From this specimen I would guess that the language is not an
      > 'inflected' one like Greek, Latin, Russian or German - in other
      words, nouns
      > and adjectives do not change their endings or other features
      according to
      > the work they are doing in the sentence; thus the adjective TAYNEL,
      which
      > is clearly equivalent to English 'many-coloured', is spelt exactly
      the same
      > way when attached to a singular noun (POGEKONE, 'land') and to a plural
      > (COMPRI, 'blossoms' [presumably]). Somehow the shortness of the
      words, and
      > the fact that many of them end with consonants, suggest something
      comparable
      > to Hebrew. But the sample is too brief for anything more than very
      > cautious conjectures, and in any case I cannot rival the ethnological
      > knowledge of Bryan Grenfell.
      >
      > Oliver Mundy.
    • Daniel Salmeron
      Has anyone mentioned perhaps looking at the names of the Tanu? There s Nodonn, Vrenol, Kuhal, Fian, Culluket, Velkonn, Olone, and others. It seems that they
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 9, 2005
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        Has anyone mentioned perhaps looking at the names of the Tanu?

        There's Nodonn, Vrenol, Kuhal, Fian, Culluket, Velkonn, Olone, and
        others. It seems that they have a predilection for two sylablle
        names. Culluket is the only oddity i can think of off hand. That
        and Morigel, the name they gave Felice. But then again, those two
        are oddities in of themselves.

        Daniel

        --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Nicolette Lewer"
        <nicolel@i...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Oliver,
        >
        > No, it's never too late to add something new to the discussion
        (grin).
        > I admit I haven't had the chance to put my usual two cents in
        (real
        > life has got in the way again, bah), but your input is welcome.
        >
        > I am no language expert but the mentioned verse does indeed give you
        > something to think about...
        >
        > High Thoughts
        > - Nicolette :-)
        >
        >
        > --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "OLIVER MUNDY"
        > <oliver.mundy@t...> wrote:
        > > I hope it is not too late to drop something into this
        > discussion.
        > >
        > > Chapter 18 ends with an entire verse of the Tanu Song in
        its
        > > original language - I believe this is the longest specimen of that
        > language
        > > given anywhere in the books - and this prompts me to wonder about
        the
        > > structure and vocabulary of that language. Has JM ever
        vouchsafed,
        > or has
        > > anyone else ever guessed, anything further about it? 'Pliocene
        > Companion'
        > > translates a few individual words or phrases but goes no further.
        > >
        > > From this specimen I would guess that the language is not
        an
        > > 'inflected' one like Greek, Latin, Russian or German - in other
        > words, nouns
        > > and adjectives do not change their endings or other features
        > according to
        > > the work they are doing in the sentence; thus the adjective
        TAYNEL,
        > which
        > > is clearly equivalent to English 'many-coloured', is spelt exactly
        > the same
        > > way when attached to a singular noun (POGEKONE, 'land') and to a
        plural
        > > (COMPRI, 'blossoms' [presumably]). Somehow the shortness of the
        > words, and
        > > the fact that many of them end with consonants, suggest something
        > comparable
        > > to Hebrew. But the sample is too brief for anything more than
        very
        > > cautious conjectures, and in any case I cannot rival the
        ethnological
        > > knowledge of Bryan Grenfell.
        > >
        > > Oliver Mundy.
      • OLIVER MUNDY
        Has anyone mentioned perhaps looking at the names of the Tanu? There s Nodonn, Vrenol, Kuhal, Fian, Culluket, Velkonn, Olone, and others. It seems that they
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 9, 2005
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          "Has anyone mentioned perhaps looking at the names of the Tanu?

          There's Nodonn, Vrenol, Kuhal, Fian, Culluket, Velkonn, Olone, and
          others. It seems that they have a predilection for two sylablle
          names. Culluket is the only oddity i can think of off hand. That
          and Morigel, the name they gave Felice. But then again, those two
          are oddities in of themselves." (Daniel Salmeron)

          Trisyllabic names are actually not so scarce. Consider Celadeyr
          and his children Uriet and Fethneya, [Gwen]-Minivel, Condateyr, Minanonn,
          Nontusvel, Onedan [Trumpeter], Riganone, Amathon, Armida, Seniet [Lord
          Historian], and probably others. There is even a four-syllabled example in
          [Wex]-Velitokal, though the fact that the Tanu themselves favour his human
          sobriquet (Bert Candyman) suggests that this is more of a mouthful than they
          themselves care for.

          Daniel is right of course to point to proper names as a further
          source of glimpses of the language. However, many of these seem have an
          'external' origin, being modelled on names recorded in the 'real' world as
          those of Celtic deities or heroes: thus Nodonn derives from Nodens, Epone
          from Epona or Eponna and Riganone from Rigantona - all Gallic deities
          mentioned by Roman writers - while Fian, Yeochee (originally 'Eochaidh') and
          Minanonn ('Manannan') come from Irish literature, as do the names Tanu and
          Firvulag themselves ('Children of Dana' and 'Firbolg'). With 'Velkonn' and
          'Malachee' (as in 'Malachee's Toot'), JM cheats a little; the one is Roman
          (Vulcanus the smith-god), and the latter is of course Hebrew in origin, but
          there is (I believe) a St. Malachi who is important in early Irish church
          history, and I suppose that is why she allows the name to slip in.

          I suppose the obvious thing to look for would be a correlation
          between Tanu and the Goidel-Celtic languages. Does anyone here speak
          Gaelic or, better still, Irish?

          Oliver Mundy.
        • alixnc
          ... correlation ... speak ... Or (re)consider the name Aiken Drum. which may well turn out to be a private joke shared by Sir Walter Scott and the Scots ballad
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 10, 2005
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            --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "OLIVER MUNDY"
            <oliver.mundy@t...> wrote:
            > "Has anyone mentioned perhaps looking at the names of the Tanu?
            > I suppose the obvious thing to look for would be a
            correlation
            > between Tanu and the Goidel-Celtic languages. Does anyone here
            speak
            > Gaelic or, better still, Irish?

            Or (re)consider the name Aiken Drum. which may well turn out to be a
            private joke shared by Sir Walter Scott and the Scots ballad
            collector James Hogg.

            Where are Moz and Sepiternity when you need them?

            Still persisting,
            Alix
          • Sorcha
            ... I do indeed, although it s a tad rusty these days. You ve got pretty much all of the obvious ones there, although I had thought that Nodonn was a
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 13, 2005
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              At 12:46 10/04/2005, you wrote:
              >
              > Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 20:15:12 +0100
              > From: "OLIVER MUNDY" <oliver.mundy@...>
              >Subject: Re: TMCL chap. 18; The Tanu Language
              >
              >"Has anyone mentioned perhaps looking at the names of the Tanu?
              >
              >There's Nodonn, Vrenol, Kuhal, Fian, Culluket, Velkonn, Olone, and
              >others. It seems that they have a predilection for two sylablle
              >names. Culluket is the only oddity i can think of off hand. That
              >and Morigel, the name they gave Felice. But then again, those two
              >are oddities in of themselves." (Daniel Salmeron)
              >
              > Trisyllabic names are actually not so scarce. Consider Celadeyr
              >and his children Uriet and Fethneya, [Gwen]-Minivel, Condateyr, Minanonn,
              >Nontusvel, Onedan [Trumpeter], Riganone, Amathon, Armida, Seniet [Lord
              >Historian], and probably others. There is even a four-syllabled example in
              >[Wex]-Velitokal, though the fact that the Tanu themselves favour his human
              >sobriquet (Bert Candyman) suggests that this is more of a mouthful than they
              >themselves care for.
              >
              > Daniel is right of course to point to proper names as a further
              >source of glimpses of the language. However, many of these seem have an
              >'external' origin, being modelled on names recorded in the 'real' world as
              >those of Celtic deities or heroes: thus Nodonn derives from Nodens, Epone
              >from Epona or Eponna and Riganone from Rigantona - all Gallic deities
              >mentioned by Roman writers - while Fian, Yeochee (originally 'Eochaidh') and
              >Minanonn ('Manannan') come from Irish literature, as do the names Tanu and
              >Firvulag themselves ('Children of Dana' and 'Firbolg'). With 'Velkonn' and
              >'Malachee' (as in 'Malachee's Toot'), JM cheats a little; the one is Roman
              >(Vulcanus the smith-god), and the latter is of course Hebrew in origin, but
              >there is (I believe) a St. Malachi who is important in early Irish church
              >history, and I suppose that is why she allows the name to slip in.
              >
              > I suppose the obvious thing to look for would be a correlation
              >between Tanu and the Goidel-Celtic languages. Does anyone here speak
              >Gaelic or, better still, Irish?

              I do indeed, although it's a tad rusty these days. You've got pretty much
              all of the obvious ones there, although I had thought that Nodonn was a
              corruption of Nuada Lámh Airgead, that is Nuada of the Silver Hand. He was
              a king of the Tuatha de Dannan, who lost a hand in battle and had a silver
              replacement made for him by his brother Dian Cecht, the god of healing and
              physician of the Tuatha. Obvious parallels there, although here it was
              Mercy that made the hand, if I remember correctly.

              Sorcha
            • AbyssAngyl@aol.com
              In a message dated 4/13/2005 2:37:04 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, sushi@esatclear.ie writes: I do indeed, although it s a tad rusty these days. You ve got
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 16, 2005
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                In a message dated 4/13/2005 2:37:04 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, sushi@... writes:
                I do indeed, although it's a tad rusty these days. You've got pretty much
                all of the obvious ones there, although I had thought that Nodonn was a
                corruption of Nuada Lámh Airgead, that is Nuada of the Silver Hand. He was
                a king of the Tuatha de Dannan, who lost a hand in battle and had a silver
                replacement made for him by his brother Dian Cecht, the god of healing and
                physician of the Tuatha. Obvious parallels there, although here it was
                Mercy that made the hand, if I remember correctly.

                Sorcha


                Dionket? The pacifist of the Host...
                 
                <showing an amazing ability to divine the obvoius>
                FrankenDannan
                 
                 
              • pat_wynne
                ... pretty ... Nodonn ... Silver ... battle ... Cecht, ... Well, Nuada would be the Irish version of the British god called Nodens or Nudd among the Welsh. So
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 18, 2005
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                  --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Sorcha <sushi@e...> wrote:
                  > At 12:46 10/04/2005, you wrote:
                  > I do indeed, although it's a tad rusty these days. You've got
                  pretty
                  > much all of the obvious ones there, although I had thought that
                  Nodonn
                  > was a corruption of Nuada Lámh Airgead, that is Nuada of the
                  Silver
                  > Hand. He was a king of the Tuatha de Dannan, who lost a hand in
                  battle
                  > and had a silver replacement made for him by his brother Dian
                  Cecht,
                  > the god of healing and physician of the Tuatha.

                  Well, Nuada would be the Irish version of the British god called
                  Nodens or Nudd among the Welsh. So it's all good. ;)

                  > Obvious parallels there, although here it was Mercy that made the
                  > hand, if I remember correctly.

                  The hand was made by Huldah or her father/grandfather/whatever (I
                  forget his name); Mercy just transmuted the wooden original into
                  silver for her Apollo.

                  There are a ton more Celtic analogs among the Tanu names. Two that
                  come to mind with very little thought are:

                  Mayvar : Medb, the Irish queen who represented Sovereignty and whose
                  husbands became High King.

                  Mercy-Rosmar : Rosmerta, the Celtic goddess of fire, warmth and
                  abundance who was, according to the Romans, the wife of the Gaulish
                  Mercury.

                  Patrick Wynne
                • OLIVER MUNDY
                  I had thought that Nodonn was a corruption of Nuada Lámh Airgead, that is Nuada of the Silver Hand. (Sorcha) From a quick search, it appears that the
                  Message 8 of 9 , Apr 19, 2005
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                    "I had thought that Nodonn was a corruption of Nuada Lámh Airgead, that is
                    Nuada of the Silver Hand." (Sorcha)

                    From a quick search, it appears that the Gaulish Nodens, the Welsh
                    Nudd (or Lludd) and the Irish Nuada are all, in origin, one and the same;
                    the motif of the Silver Hand constantly reappears. In the Welsh version,
                    it seems that Nudd himself came to be regarded as a healer-god - which looks
                    very much out of line for our friend Sun-Face, until we remember that JM
                    often calls him by the classical name of Apollo - who was also, in one of
                    his aspects, a healer.

                    Thanks to Sorcha, FrankenDannan and Patrick Wynne for some valuable
                    additions to the record of Celtic derivations. I wonder if, between us, we
                    might compile a list of these and put it on permanent display somewhere, as
                    a supplement to 'Pliocene Companion'? Or has this already been done?

                    Oliver Mundy.
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