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The Exiles

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  • Geoff Norfolk
    Why oh why does a good thread get going just as I am four hours away from leaving for a two week vacation with no internet access. I am exiling myself to a log
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 30, 2004
      Why oh why does a good thread get going just as I am four hours away from leaving for a two week vacation with no internet access. I am exiling myself to a log cabin half way up a 400 foot cliff in Cornwall. So I will put the wooden spoon in before I go and add my two pennoth to the mix.
       
      JM calls it the Saga of the Exiles with good reason,  in truth as Bob and Michael state, EVERYONE,  human and non-human, is an exile of one sort or another.  I don't agree with Michael that the human exiles are 'not damaged more than any other human being'.....we are looking at some seriously strange people here, heavily slanted towards the end of the Bell curve that leans towards severe dysfunctionality. I'm with Bob on the take that not many of the characters are going to be your 'well rounded saner sort' and that the mix of characters is good but lets face it... the lift doesn't go anywhere near the top floor for many of them.
       
      The interesting thing for me, and I would guess for all of you out there who appreciate these books feel the same, is that I catch glimpses of myself in many of these characters. Some of them revolt me and I feel nothing in common with ( Culleket and Jeff Steinbrenner, sadist bastards both, particularly come to mind ). Some have qualities I despise ( Elizabeths whinning self pity...on and on and on....argggghhh, Raimos switching between strutting bully when hes on top to sullen spite and vindictiveness when he can't get his own way, Marc....'my way or highway!'). Some I think, yeah, I could see myself doing/have done something like that whether it be incredibly stupid or not such a bad move given the circumstances. Others, although I could never see myself behaving like them, I can identify with their motivation. Some I just cannot figure out...Bryan for Gods sake man, for someone supposedly SO intelligent!!!!!!!!!!! But in most of them I can see glimpses of myself which is a big hook for me to keep reading the books..
       
      Like Leticia I found myself very disturbed by the way the women behave and the attitudes and assumptions that underlie the womens roles on the whole. Most of the women accept subservience, allowing themselves to be used sexually or otherwise with little opposition which  I personally find chilling. I admit more than a sneaking admiration for Ayfa, subservient to no-one. She is an equal partner to Sharn and he recognises her as such. And Mayvar, I quite like Mayvar. The thing that causes me considerable horror is the attitude that the (human) women are just there for 'breeding' from despite how nicely it is coated. I once had an appalling conversation with a proffesional colleague (male) in the eighties who accused me of selfishness because I did not want children but was pursuing a career. He told me in no uncertain terms that I  (and women like me with intelligence and education) had a duty to the human race to breed intelligent children and that our failure to shoulder this duty would have the result that ultimately human intelligence in future generations would suffer. He felt that we should be forced to marry and have children 'for the good of humanity'. !!!!!!!!!!!
       
      Elizabeth running off to another galaxy with Marc struck me as a complete subservient cop out on her part. In later books of the Millieu series Marc states to Rogi that he really did have a loving and equal relationship with her and missed her dreadfully when she chose to pass on, but this is not the impression you are left with at the end of the Exiles series.
       
      Felice is an interesting case. I don't see her as being subservient. She is forced into that position on occassions but never gives in. For much of the series she is insane but what we have to remember is that when Elizabeth cures her of her insanity  she  STILL choses to murder Amerie because she can't get her own way with her sexually, and would torture Culluket for her own sexual satisfaction. I would not call those the actions of a subservient woman. As Aiken berates Elizabeth....sanity does not neccessarily equate with altruism. Felice has great self confidence in being able to take on anyone.
       
      Anyway enough for two weeks... I have to set off driving in lass than three n half hours now so I'll leave you all to chew the fat.
       
      Regards Helen Norfolk (whose cottage is definately thatched!)
       
      PS. Speaking of thatch Bob, I hav gone into summer plummage and banished the violet hair until the winter months.
       

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    • jimc_hjones
      ... Some resonance there with the conversation Denis Remillard has with Jared Elsworth (IIRC) in (IIRC again) Intervention about whether he has an obligation
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 5 10:56 PM
        --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Norfolk"
        <g.norfolk@n...> wrote (inter alia):

        > I once had an appalling conversation with a professional colleague
        > (male) in the eighties who accused me of selfishness because I did
        > not want children but was pursuing a career. He told me in no
        > uncertain terms that I (and women like me with intelligence and
        > education) had a duty to the human race to breed intelligent
        > children

        Some resonance there with the conversation Denis Remillard has with
        Jared Elsworth (IIRC) in (IIRC again) Intervention about whether he
        has an obligation to father children... If Denis had sired no
        children perhaps there would have been no Fury, certainly no Hydra
        and no Marc, and perhaps humanity would have proceeded to co-
        adunation at a slightly slower pace with no rebellion...

        As someone who has evaded procreation myself, did I have a duty to
        pass on my high intelligence, or did I have a duty not to pass on my
        migraines, supernumery teeth, tendency to ingrowing toenails and
        various other genetic defects, not to mention the effects of somewhat
        dubious parenting skills?


        > Elizabeth cures her of her insanity she STILL choses to murder
        > Amerie because she can't get her own way with her sexually, and
        > would torture Culluket for her own sexual satisfaction.

        I was never sure to what extent that meant Felice was cured
        actually... if you take the view that there is no hard/fast line
        between sane and insane those are scarcely the actions of someone
        slap in the middle of the bell curve... Did Elizabeth cure Felice or
        did she stuff up and get misled by some of the aspects of Felice'
        unsanity?
      • Nicolette Lewer
        Hi there, Hmm....yes....was Felice really cured in the end? I think that while a lot of her neuroses were dealt with by Liz, Felice ended up becoming a
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 8 9:31 PM
          Hi there,

          Hmm....yes....was Felice really 'cured' in the end? I think that while a lot of her neuroses were dealt with by Liz, Felice ended up becoming a well-adjusted sociopath (if such a thing exists!). She saw what she wanted from Amerie and Cull, and if they didn't want to go along with it, well, tough.....

          It seems to be a minor theme in the whole series that Therapy Doesn't Always Work - after all, even though there was a big metaconcert to try and help Denis/Fury, the Fury persona nevertheless became dominant. A scene that has always remained in my head (if a bit fuzzily) is where Rogi is facing Fury at the end of 'Magnificat' and asking what 'happened' to Fury/Denis, with Fury replying, 'Love failed'.   Brrrr!!

          High Thoughts
          - Nicolette :-)

          On 6 Aug 2004 at 5:56, jimc_hjones wrote:


          > I was never sure to what extent that meant Felice was cured
          > actually... if you take the view that there is no hard/fast line
          > between sane and insane those are scarcely the actions of someone
          > slap in the middle of the bell curve... Did Elizabeth cure Felice or
          > did she stuff up and get misled by some of the aspects of Felice'
          > unsanity?
          >
          >
        • Cleomadjai
          Yes, I think Aitken put it to Elizabeth after she had cured Felice that Sanity doesn t equal altruism . A sad state, but very true of humanity. And he
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 9 12:29 AM
            Yes, I think Aitken put it to Elizabeth after she had 'cured' Felice that 'Sanity doesn't equal altruism'.  A sad state, but very true of humanity. And he accused Elizabeth of arrogance for unleasing Felice when she could have acted differently as Aitken had asked her to.
             
            Poor Denis - what a galactic tragedy.  I always wonder if things might have turned out better if he had got his brothers and sisters away from Vic.  The guilt of their deaths must have tipped the scales for Den becoming Fury.  I know about the child abuse but the fact  was -  Vic  triggered Fury and Denis must have known Vic was totally unrepentant to the very last.  All his angst and philosophising counted for nothing in the end.  Once again sanity doesn't equal altruism.  Vic was an evil git but he wasnt mad.  Frighteningly sane in fact.
             
            Cleo


            Nicolette Lewer <n.lewer@...> wrote:
            Hi there,

            Hmm....yes....was Felice really 'cured' in the end? I think that while a lot of her neuroses were dealt with by Liz, Felice ended up becoming a well-adjusted sociopath (if such a thing exists!). She saw what she wanted from Amerie and Cull, and if they didn't want to go along with it, well, tough.....

            It seems to be a minor theme in the whole series that Therapy Doesn't Always Work - after all, even though there was a big metaconcert to try and help Denis/Fury, the Fury persona nevertheless became dominant. A scene that has always remained in my head (if a bit fuzzily) is where Rogi is facing Fury at the end of 'Magnificat' and asking what 'happened' to Fury/Denis, with Fury replying, 'Love failed'.   Brrrr!!

            High Thoughts
            - Nicolette :-)

            On 6 Aug 2004 at 5:56, jimc_hjones wrote:


            > I was never sure to what extent that meant Felice was cured
            > actually... if you take the view that there is no hard/fast line
            > between sane and insane those are scarcely the actions of someone
            > slap in the middle of the bell curve... Did Elizabeth cure Felice or
            > did she stuff up and get misled by some of the aspects of Felice'
            > unsanity?
            >
            >


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          • Linda Perry
            Is there such a thing as a well adjusted sociopath or is this statement a bit of an oxymoron? Sorry Nicole. Abuse does not make sociopaths they are born
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 9 8:47 AM
              Is there such a thing as a "well adjusted" sociopath or is this statement a bit of an oxymoron?  Sorry Nicole. 
              Abuse does not make sociopaths they are born that way.  On the surface Felice could probably be accused of being a sociopath but, in reality, the hurt and anger she suffered because of her abuse was buried deep within herself because it was just too painful for her to face. Which makes her unable to deal with any future hurt, anger etc. in a so called "normal" way because she is painfully out of touch with her own emotions and feelings.    However, there does come a day of reckoning and, like a volcano, all this pent up anger and hurt must eventually erupt.
              Felice was capable of many altruistic actions and her love for Amerie was definitely true. One wonders if Amerie had returned this love (because she was attracted to Felice), instead ofbeing stubbornly fixated on her desire to become a martyr, wouldn't she have helped Felice rise above her past?  Instead she chose to fulfill her desire and die in true martyrdom style.  In doing so Amerie helped unleash a rage filled Felice upon the rest of the "gang", which nullifies her act, and makes her (in my mind) worse than her.
               
              Peace and Light
               
              Linda    
               
               
              Nicolette Lewer <n.lewer@...> wrote:

               Felice ended up becoming a well-adjusted sociopath (if such a thing exists!). She saw what she wanted from Amerie and Cull, and if they didn't want to go along with it, well, tough.....

               
              High Thoughts
              - Nicolette :-)




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            • Nicolette Lewer
              Hi Linda, I think I was being a bit too tongue-in-cheek when I was describing Felice, oops. Certainly she is one of many characters in the series who are
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 9 5:49 PM
                Hi Linda,

                I think I was being a bit too tongue-in-cheek when I was describing Felice, oops.
                Certainly she is one of many characters in the series who are unfortunately traumatised
                to a certain extent because of neglect/abuse from parental figures.

                It would indeed be interesting to see what would have happened if Amerie returned her
                love and she perhaps became a force for good like Liz hoped she would be (alternate
                ending?).


                High Thoughts
                - Nicolette :-)

                On 9 Aug 2004 at 11:47, Linda Perry wrote:

                >
                > Is there such a thing as a "well adjusted" sociopath or is this statementa bit of an oxymoron?
                > Sorry Nicole.
                > Abuse does not make sociopaths they are born that way. On the surface Felice could probably be
                > accused of being a sociopath but, in reality, the hurt and anger she suffered because ofher abuse
                > was buried deep within herself because it was just too painful for her to face.Which makes her
                > unable to deal with any future hurt, anger etc. in a so called "normal" way because she is painfully
                > out of touch with her own emotions and feelings.However, there does come a day of reckoning
                > and, like a volcano, all thispent upanger and hurt must eventually erupt.
                > Felice was capable of many altruistic actions and her love for Amerie was definitely true. One
                > wonders ifAmerie had returnedthis love (because she wasattracted to Felice), instead
                > ofbeingstubbornlyfixated on her desire to become a martyr,wouldn't she have helped Felicerise
                > aboveher past? Instead she chose to fulfill her desire and diein true martyrdom style. In doing
                > so Amerie helped unleasha rage filled Felice upon the rest of the "gang", which nullifies her act,
                > and makes her (in my mind) worse than her.
                >
                > Peace and Light
                >
                > Linda
                >
              • Robert Powell
                Am I the only one who doesn t but for a minute the Felice/Amerie love angle? I m not going to get in to a debate about what constitutes love - better minds
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 10 2:42 AM
                  Am I the only one who doesn't but for a minute the Felice/Amerie
                  love angle?

                  I'm not going to get in to a debate about what constitutes love -
                  better minds than mine have tried that and failed - but surely the
                  one facet of love that is essential is altruism. To love a person or
                  even an object - such as say a damn good read of the Exiles books
                  *grin* - you must want to protect the target of your love, often to
                  the detriment of yourself.

                  Felice had not a single altruistic bone in her small but powerful
                  body.

                  What Felice felt was lust!

                  She didn't care for Amerie's feelings, she didn't care for her
                  beliefs, she didn't care for her own desires or her wellbeing.

                  Felice objectified Amerie; she was the embodiment of the
                  unachievable and therefore a focus for all Felice's frustrations and
                  desires.

                  Love did not enter the equation at all!

                  high thoughts

                  Bob

                  P.S. Besides Lesbian Nun's is just a little too kinky even for
                  series of books heavily tilted to inbreeding! *grin*




                  > Hi Linda,
                  >
                  > I think I was being a bit too tongue-in-cheek when I was
                  describing Felice, oops.
                  > Certainly she is one of many characters in the series who are
                  unfortunately traumatised
                  > to a certain extent because of neglect/abuse from parental figures.
                  >
                  > It would indeed be interesting to see what would have happened if
                  Amerie returned her
                  > love and she perhaps became a force for good like Liz hoped she
                  would be (alternate
                  > ending?).
                  >
                  >
                  > High Thoughts
                  > - Nicolette :-)
                  >
                  > On 9 Aug 2004 at 11:47, Linda Perry wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > > Is there such a thing as a "well adjusted" sociopath or is this
                  statementa bit of an oxymoron?
                  > > Sorry Nicole.
                  > > Abuse does not make sociopaths they are born that way. On the
                  surface Felice could probably be
                  > > accused of being a sociopath but, in reality, the hurt and anger
                  she suffered because ofher abuse
                  > > was buried deep within herself because it was just too painful
                  for her to face.Which makes her
                  > > unable to deal with any future hurt, anger etc. in a so
                  called "normal" way because she is painfully
                  > > out of touch with her own emotions and feelings.However, there
                  does come a day of reckoning
                  > > and, like a volcano, all thispent upanger and hurt must
                  eventually erupt.
                  > > Felice was capable of many altruistic actions and her love for
                  Amerie was definitely true. One
                  > > wonders ifAmerie had returnedthis love (because she wasattracted
                  to Felice), instead
                  > > ofbeingstubbornlyfixated on her desire to become a
                  martyr,wouldn't she have helped Felicerise
                  > > aboveher past? Instead she chose to fulfill her desire and diein
                  true martyrdom style. In doing
                  > > so Amerie helped unleasha rage filled Felice upon the rest of
                  the "gang", which nullifies her act,
                  > > and makes her (in my mind) worse than her.
                  > >
                  > > Peace and Light
                  > >
                  > > Linda
                  > >
                • Cleomadjai
                  True, Bob, but let s not forget that even if the kinky lesbian nun (I can t believe I have just typed that) thing was true and she was attracted to Felice,
                  Message 8 of 13 , Aug 10 4:43 AM
                    True, Bob, but let's not forget that even if the kinky lesbian nun (I can't believe I have just typed that) thing was true and she was attracted to Felice, Amerie CHOSE not to indulge in a physical affair, in accordance with her religious beliefs.  Love does not take away your freedom of choice, it should respect it.
                     
                    Felice didnt respect anyone, and altho she did more than do her share to help the rebellion, it was for her own gain - a golden torc and to 'take' the Tanu.  Saying that, I always felt sorry for Felice - her early experiences were horrific and warped her but it was Cull (none too pleasant himself) who deliberately pushed her over the edge.  The animals were actually the only one's whom she truely seemed to care for.  And they appeared to adore her.
                     
                    Cleo 
                     
                    Robert Powell <pallol@...> wrote:
                    Am I the only one who doesn't but for a minute the Felice/Amerie
                    love angle?

                    I'm not going to get in to a debate about what constitutes love -
                    better minds than mine have tried that and failed - but surely the
                    one facet of love that is essential is altruism. To love a person or
                    even an object - such as say a damn good read of the Exiles books
                    *grin* - you must want to protect the target of your love, often to
                    the detriment of yourself.

                    Felice had not a single altruistic bone in her small but powerful
                    body.

                    What Felice felt was lust!

                    She didn't care for Amerie's feelings, she didn't care for her
                    beliefs, she didn't care for her own desires or her wellbeing.

                    Felice objectified Amerie; she was the embodiment of the
                    unachievable and therefore a focus for all Felice's frustrations and
                    desires.

                    Love did not enter the equation at all!

                    high thoughts

                    Bob

                    P.S. Besides Lesbian Nun's is just a little too kinky even for
                    series of books heavily tilted to inbreeding! *grin*




                    > Hi Linda,
                    >
                    > I think I was being a bit too tongue-in-cheek when I was
                    describing Felice, oops.
                    > Certainly she is one of many characters in the series who are
                    unfortunately traumatised
                    > to a certain extent because of neglect/abuse from parental figures.
                    >
                    > It would indeed be interesting to see what would have happened if
                    Amerie returned her
                    > love and she perhaps became a force for good like Liz hoped she
                    would be (alternate
                    > ending?).
                    >
                    >
                    > High Thoughts
                    > - Nicolette :-)
                    >
                    > On 9 Aug 2004 at 11:47, Linda Perry wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    > > Is there such a thing as a "well adjusted" sociopath or is this
                    statementa bit of an oxymoron?
                    > > Sorry Nicole.
                    > > Abuse does not make sociopaths they are born that way. On the
                    surface Felice could probably be
                    > > accused of being a sociopath but, in reality, the hurt and anger
                    she suffered because ofher abuse
                    > > was buried deep within herself because it was just too painful
                    for her to face.Which makes her
                    > > unable to deal with any future hurt, anger etc. in a so
                    called "normal" way because she is painfully
                    > > out of touch with her own emotions and feelings.However, there
                    does come a day of reckoning
                    > > and, like a volcano, all thispent upanger and hurt must
                    eventually erupt.
                    > > Felice was capable of many altruistic actions and her love for
                    Amerie was definitely true. One
                    > > wonders ifAmerie had returnedthis love (because she wasattracted
                    to Felice), instead
                    > > ofbeingstubbornlyfixated on her desire to become a
                    martyr,wouldn't she have helped Felicerise
                    > > aboveher past? Instead she chose to fulfill her desire and diein
                    true martyrdom style. In doing
                    > > so Amerie helped unleasha rage filled Felice upon the rest of
                    the "gang", which nullifies her act,
                    > > and makes her (in my mind) worse than her.
                    > >
                    > > Peace and Light
                    > >
                    > > Linda
                    > >



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                  • Linda Perry
                    All of the exiles had ulterior motives for doing the things they did. Even Madame G. helped in order to assuage her guilt because she was the one who used the
                    Message 9 of 13 , Aug 10 11:55 AM
                      All of the exiles had ulterior motives for doing the things they did.  Even Madame G. helped in order to assuage her guilt because she was the one who used the time portal to send people back to the Pliocene period.  Felice was no exception. 
                      Love between adults is generally not altruisitic.  The closest I can get on that angle is the true love of a mother for her child.  That's my view anyway. Haha 
                      The love animals had for Felice shows the good that was inside of her.  Animals rarely gravitate toward an evil person.
                      Bob I think your nuns would make a great play or situation comedy.  Maybe you should write one.   Seems nothing is beyond the pale today. Chuckle.
                       
                      Peace and Light
                       
                      Linda  
                       


                      Cleomadjai <cleomadjai@...> wrote:
                      True, Bob, but let's not forget that even if the kinky lesbian nun (I can't believe I have just typed that) thing was true and she was attracted to Felice, Amerie CHOSE not to indulge in a physical affair, in accordance with her religious beliefs.  Love does not take away your freedom of choice, it should respect it.
                       
                      Felice didnt respect anyone, and altho she did more than do her share to help the rebellion, it was for her own gain - a golden torc and to 'take' the Tanu.  Saying that, I always felt sorry for Felice - her early experiences were horrific and warped her but it was Cull (none too pleasant himself) who deliberately pushed her over the edge.  The animals were actually the only one's whom she truely seemed to care for.  And they appeared to adore her.
                       
                      Cleo 
                       
                      Robert Powell <pallol@...> wrote:
                      Am I the only one who doesn't but for a minute the Felice/Amerie
                      love angle?

                      I'm not going to get in to a debate about what constitutes love -
                      better minds than mine have tried that and failed - but surely the
                      one facet of love that is essential is altruism. To love a person or
                      even an object - such as say a damn good read of the Exiles books
                      *grin* - you must want to protect the target of your love, often to
                      the detriment of yourself.

                      Felice had not a single altruistic bone in her small but powerful
                      body.

                      What Felice felt was lust!

                      She didn't care for Amerie's feelings, she didn't care for her
                      beliefs, she didn't care for her own desires or her wellbeing.

                      Felice objectified Amerie; she was the embodiment of the
                      unachievable and therefore a focus for all Felice's frustrations and
                      desires.

                      Love did not enter the equation at all!

                      high thoughts

                      Bob

                      P.S. Besides Lesbian Nun's is just a little too kinky even for
                      series of books heavily tilted to inbreeding! *grin*




                      > Hi Linda,
                      >
                      > I think I was being a bit too tongue-in-cheek when I was
                      describing Felice, oops.
                      > Certainly she is one of many characters in the series who are
                      unfortunately traumatised
                      > to a certain extent because of neglect/abuse from parental figures.
                      >
                      > It would indeed be interesting to see what would have happened if
                      Amerie returned her
                      > love and she perhaps became a force for good like Liz hoped she
                      would be (alternate
                      > ending?).
                      >
                      >
                      > High Thoughts
                      > - Nicolette :-)
                      >
                      > On 9 Aug 2004 at 11:47, Linda Perry wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      > > Is there such a thing as a "well adjusted" sociopath or is this
                      statementa bit of an oxymoron?
                      > > Sorry Nicole.
                      > > Abuse does not make sociopaths they are born that way. On the
                      surface Felice could probably be
                      > > accused of being a sociopath but, in reality, the hurt and anger
                      she suffered because ofher abuse
                      > > was buried deep within herself because it was just too painful
                      for her to face.Which makes her
                      > > unable to deal with any future hurt, anger etc. in a so
                      called "normal" way because she is painfully
                      > > out of touch with her own emotions and feelings.However, there
                      does come a day of reckoning
                      > > and, like a volcano, all thispent upanger and hurt must
                      eventually erupt.
                      > > Felice was capable of many altruistic actions and her love for
                      Amerie was definitely true. One
                      > > wonders ifAmerie had returnedthis love (because she wasattracted
                      to Felice), instead
                      > > ofbeingstubbornlyfixated on her desire to become a
                      martyr,wouldn't she have helped Felicerise
                      > > aboveher past? Instead she chose to fulfill her desire and diein
                      true martyrdom style. In doing
                      > > so Amerie helped unleasha rage filled Felice upon the rest of
                      the "gang", which nullifies her act,
                      > > and makes her (in my mind) worse than her.
                      > >
                      > > Peace and Light
                      > >
                      > > Linda
                      > >



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                    • PD Whitener
                      ... I am sorry to disagree categorically with my friend Linda about the nature of sociopathic conditions .. but then, thinking on aspects of this issue has
                      Message 10 of 13 , Aug 10 12:20 PM
                        --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Linda Perry
                        <rulesthewaves1@y...> wrote:

                        > Abuse does not make sociopaths they are born that way.

                        I am sorry to disagree categorically with my friend Linda about the
                        nature of sociopathic conditions .. but then, thinking on aspects of
                        this issue has changed more than once (e.g., the US mental health
                        professional community no longer defines homosexuality as a
                        disorder), and I am more than willing to stand corrected.
                        Where is it written that sociopaths are born, not made? In fact,
                        there are a number of life conditions that can create psychosis in a
                        previously stable personality (military combat is one), and most of
                        the personality disorders (i.e., milder and very common forms of
                        sociopathic conditions, as the term is commonly used) are often
                        developed by children as defenses against hostile, abusive or
                        extremely neglectful parenting environments. While there are
                        certainly also disorders that owe their existence solely to accidents
                        of biochemistry, these are only a part of the whole.
                        Legal issues involving levels of mental disorder and punishable
                        culpability are important here -- psychosis, sociopathy and
                        personality disorder are synonyms (and sociopathy is perhaps the most
                        apt as an antonym for altruism, and sociopathic of the
                        elusive "just," "fair," and even "loving") -- and the diagnosis-cum-
                        verdict of "sanity" (or insanity) was subject to some rather furious
                        debate in the era in which the Exile saga was conceived and written.
                        In fact, it is a prime theme of JM's, of which Felice's mindset and
                        actions are the clearest example, and Denis/Fury's and Marc's the
                        most troubling.
                        Good for us, then: We have wound up doing the real thinking JM wanted
                        us to do, weighing the pitfalls of human nature against the good of
                        human society. Here's my share of the question, and the toughest bit
                        in considering Felice: Where, exactly, does remorse fit into all
                        this? And redemption? Six million years is a VERY long time to spend
                        in atonement.
                      • michael mcguyer
                        I have to agree with both PD and Linda on this one. Sociopaths are indeed born that way. Without the gene or whatever that gives one a conscience. However, I
                        Message 11 of 13 , Aug 10 8:04 PM
                           I have to agree with both PD and Linda on this one. Sociopaths are indeed born that way.
                          Without the gene or whatever that gives one a conscience. However, I also belive that many people who are born sociopaths are able to deal with the condition and become "functional" sociopaths. Most in that category go on to become politicians or evangelical preachers;) A few learn to deal with things by adopting a code of honor to replace what most of us consider the ability to discern right from wrong. They go on to become Military or really prissy professors.
                           A few even learn to deal with punctuation and spelling, but alas I am not among those.
                           Those who have no guidence are the ones who end up like Felice or worse. We read about them in the news everyday. Luckily sociopaths like most of society at large arent real bright and end up getting caught quickly.
                           That being said I want to totally switch gears.
                           Nico said earlier...may I call you nico or is that too forward? Something about alternative endings. I think we all have our own ideas of how things should have gone.
                           I would like to hear what you all think should have been done or said differently.
                           Me, personally, I think team green was just a little too convinient .
                           Aiken Eliz and Felice all on the same departure?
                           It seems to me , in my paranoid mind, that the Mileu knew exactly where Marc and the rebels had gone and assembled a team with the firepower to take him out. They would have to assume that Marc was in charge of the past earth. I mean who would think that exotics had ruled the earth way back?
                           So I guess what I am thinking is "hit squad". The grand masters of the mileu picked and manipulated the members of team green so that they had the perfect combination.
                           Assuming they knew Eliz would regain her powers once she passed through the gate.
                           But then I think Elvis killed kennedy in the drawing room with a candlestick.
                           Anyway...just a thought.
                                                                       Beer and Peanuts
                                                                              Mick

                          PD Whitener <alixnc@...> wrote:
                          --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Linda Perry
                          <rulesthewaves1@y...> wrote:
                           
                          > Abuse does not make sociopaths they are born that way.

                          I am sorry to disagree categorically with my friend Linda about the
                          nature of sociopathic conditions .. but then, thinking on aspects of
                          this issue has changed more than once (e.g., the US mental health
                          professional community no longer defines homosexuality as a
                          disorder), and I am more than willing to stand corrected.
                          Where is it written that sociopaths are born, not made? In fact,
                          there are a number of life conditions that can create psychosis in a
                          previously stable personality (military combat is one), and most of
                          the personality disorders (i.e., milder and very common forms of
                          sociopathic conditions, as the term is commonly used) are often
                          developed by children as defenses against hostile, abusive or
                          extremely neglectful parenting environments. While there are
                          certainly also disorders that owe their existence solely to accidents
                          of biochemistry, these are only a part of the whole.
                          Legal issues involving levels of mental disorder and punishable
                          culpability are important here -- psychosis, sociopathy and
                          personality disorder are synonyms (and sociopathy is perhaps the most
                          apt as an antonym for altruism, and sociopathic of the
                          elusive "just," "fair," and even "loving") -- and the diagnosis-cum-
                          verdict of  "sanity" (or insanity) was subject to some rather furious
                          debate in the era in which the Exile saga was conceived and written.
                          In fact, it is a prime theme of JM's, of which Felice's mindset and
                          actions are the clearest example, and Denis/Fury's and Marc's the
                          most troubling.
                          Good for us, then: We have wound up doing the real thinking JM wanted
                          us to do, weighing the pitfalls of human nature against the good of
                          human society. Here's my share of the question, and the toughest bit
                          in considering Felice: Where, exactly, does remorse fit into all
                          this? And redemption? Six million years is a VERY long time to spend
                          in atonement.



                          Do you Yahoo!?
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                        • Nicolette Lewer
                          Hi there, I m not usually called Nico but I will let it pass this time. ;-) There are certainly a few people in the series that you could say veer towards
                          Message 12 of 13 , Aug 11 9:51 PM
                            Hi there,

                            I'm not usually called Nico but I will let it pass this time. ;-)

                            There are certainly a few people in the series that you could say veer towards being a
                            sociopath - if Vic wasn't one then I'm not sure what he was. Marc with his 'the end
                            justifies my means' comes pretty close as well, but I think his repressed nature played a
                            big part in many of his actions too.

                            As for alternate endings I've never come up with the definite 'alternate' version that I
                            would prefer, though a part of me wishes Liz had ended up with Creyn....

                            I don't believe that Group Green were deliberately put together - after all, they would
                            have seemed just another bunch of misfits and oddballs. No one would have suspected
                            that Felice and Aiken would develop Paramount-level powers and Liz would not have
                            been allowed to go through if there was a suspicion she could regain her powers.
                            However, I think that in the grand storytelling tradition they happened to be the right
                            people at the right time to effect dramatic change (and often be the wrong people at the
                            wrong time as well, oops).

                            It's hard to say whether the Milieu authorities suspected that Marc & gang would have
                            been in charge of Earth BC - they may have hoped that the Pliocene wildlife would
                            finish them off quickly.....

                            High Thoughts
                            - Nicolette :-)


                            On 10 Aug 2004 at 20:04, michael mcguyer wrote:

                            >
                            > I have to agree with both PD and Linda on this one. Sociopaths are indeed born that way.
                            > Without the gene or whatever that gives one a conscience. However, I also belive that many
                            > people who are born sociopaths are able to deal with the condition and become "functional"
                            > sociopaths. Most in that category go on to become politicians or evangelical preachers;) A few
                            > learn to deal with things by adopting a code of honor to replace what most of us consider the
                            > ability to discern right from wrong. They go on to become Militaryor really prissy professors.
                            > A few even learn to deal with punctuation and spelling, but alas I am not among those.
                            > Those who have no guidence are the ones who end up like Felice or worse. We read about them
                            > in the news everyday. Luckily sociopaths like most of society at large arent real bright and end up
                            > getting caught quickly.
                            > That being said I want to totally switch gears.
                            > Nico said earlier...may I call you nico or is that too forward? Something about alternative endings.
                            > I think we all have our own ideas of how things should have gone.
                            > I would like to hearwhat you all think should have been done or said differently.
                            > Me, personally, I think team green was just a little too convinient.
                            > Aiken Eliz and Felice all on the same departure?
                            > It seems to me , in my paranoid mind, that the Mileu knew exactly where Marc and the rebels had
                            > gone and assembled a team with the firepower to take him out. They would have to assume that
                            > Marc was in charge of the past earth. I mean who would think that exotics had ruled the earth way
                            > back?
                            > So I guess what I am thinking is "hit squad". The grand masters of the mileu picked and
                            > manipulated the members of team green so that they had the perfect combination.
                            > Assuming they knew Eliz would regain her powers once she passed through the gate.
                            > But then I think Elvis killed kennedy in the drawing room with a candlestick.
                            > Anyway...just a thought.
                            > Beer and Peanuts
                            > Mick
                            >
                          • pat_wynne
                            ... That depends on who was doing the putting together. :) ... Maybe it wasn t so right place, right time after all, though. After Madame translated to
                            Message 13 of 13 , Aug 12 3:28 PM
                              --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Nicolette Lewer"
                              <n.lewer@n...> wrote:
                              > I don't believe that Group Green were deliberately put together -
                              > after all, they would have seemed just another bunch of misfits and
                              > oddballs. No one would have suspected that Felice and Aiken would
                              > develop Paramount-level powers and Liz would not have been allowed
                              > to go through if there was a suspicion she could regain her powers.

                              That depends on who was doing the putting together. :)

                              > However, I think that in the grand storytelling tradition they
                              > happened to be the right people at the right time to effect dramatic
                              > change (and often be the wrong people at the wrong time as well,
                              > oops).

                              Maybe it wasn't so "right place, right time" after all, though. After
                              Madame translated to Exile, the Milieu took over the operation of the
                              Auberge. Perhaps Atoning Unifex had a bit of a hand in selecting this
                              particular group's composition...? I mean, we know he helped the
                              Rebels make their escape though the time gate, so why not take a more
                              active hand in Group Green, too?

                              Patrick
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