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Re: [Julian-May-discuss] TMCL chapters 13-16

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  • Nicolette Lewer
    Hello, How s this for coincidence - I send off my various thoughts on the Group Read and then I hear the you got mail PING and lo, I see you have just
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 21, 2004
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      Hello,

      How's this for coincidence - I send off my various thoughts on the Group Read and then
      I hear the 'you got mail' PING and lo, I see you have just contributed as well.

      It's a funny world.

      This is a good thing.


      High Thoughts,
      - Nicolette :-)


      On 21 Jan 2004 at 22:36, jason collins wrote:

      >
      > ZANG!
      >
      > So this group read thing, are we supposed to contribute in some way? Maybe I'm looking in the
      > wrong place for all this chat that's going on, nothing seems to be working at the moment, oh 'eck,
      > hold on, I'd better try THE ELOQUENT PAGE page...
      >
      > No, nothing much going on there, 'cept some lucky person is in New Hampshire touring around
      > the actual places mentioned in the books, lucky sods.
      >
      > Well , chapters 13-16 is still pre time gate/pleiocene(where did I get that spelling from?) epoch,
      > when I first read the books many years ago I thought it was spelt the same way as modelling clay,
      > and we're going a little deeper into to all the main character's foibles (Is that a word?)
      >
      > CHAPTER 13
      > What I want to know is what is a Cheongsam? Sounds sexy. Sorry, but Felice is beginning to turn
      > me on in this chapter at the moment I'm picturing Scarlett Johanssen, steady now! I still want to
      > know how come Mercy has the old Tanu genes (hope I'm not spoiling it for the newbies!) Aiken
      > too for that matter? He sure missed out on the genes that give the tanu their height. Claude I'm
      > now thinking of an intelligent Charles Bronson. I watch too many films.
      >
      > Now geography, there's something else I'm really interested in, NOT. Bad teacher's at school put
      > me off what I first found pretty interesting. Julian's expertise at such data is very impressive, or is
      > it bullshit, nah!
      >
      > CHAPTER 14
      > Then we come to Bryan's infatuation with Mercedes Siobhan Lamballe, what the hell do all those
      > numbers and letters mean? Crikeyyou'd need to go through it with a fine tooth comb to sort that
      > one out. One thing had me guessing from all that, Mercy's mother was named Siobhan Maeve
      > O'Connell (Perhaps some relation to O'Connor? Newbies scratch your heads now!)
      >
      > CHAPTER 15
      > What a lot of lucky, lucky people to live in the year 2110, you can rejuvinate your body and even
      > get rid of yer male pattern baldness thingamy, I must admit that having now reached the over ripe
      > age of 42 I could do with a go in the tank myself. Definately get that baldy gene out, also on my list
      > would be that thing that gives you the hairy arse, back, nose, ears and the ever growing eyebrows
      > (who's idea was that?) I went through my twenties thinking at least I'd escaped those buggers!
      >
      > CHAPTER 16
      > Decamole, what a fantastic idea
      >
      > That's all f'now
      > Where are you all? Stop hiding!
      > Regards
      > Jason
      >
      > ZUNG!
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Julian-May-discuss/
      >
      > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > Julian-May-discuss-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


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    • PD Whitener
      ... wrote: CHAPTER 13 ... According to the Merriam-Webster Unabridged Dictionary, a cheongsam is a dress of southern Chinese origin with a slit skirt
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 22, 2004
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        --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, jason collins <jason@c...>
        wrote:

        <snip> CHAPTER 13
        > What I want to know is what is a Cheongsam? Sounds sexy. <snip>
        According to the Merriam-Webster Unabridged Dictionary, a cheongsam
        is "a dress of southern Chinese origin with a slit skirt and a
        mandarin collar," and they generally ARE considered sexy. Youknoe --
        Suzy Wong stuff.

        <snip> I still want to know how come Mercy has the
        > old Tanu genes (hope I'm not spoiling it for the newbies!) Aiken
        too for
        > that matter? He sure missed out on the genes that give the tanu
        their
        > height.<snip>
        JM herself has remarked on Mercy, Felice, and Aiken, as having
        particularly importnt names. To avoid just plain confusing the
        newbies, let's just say Celtic royalty (the model for the Tanu), but
        look to more modern sources for the name and character than the
        rabbit warren of Celtic mythology. We're still squarely in line with
        the current chapters if we just do a thorough search on the name
        Lamballe:
        "MARIE THERESE LOUISE OF SAVOY-CARIGNANO, PRINCESSE DE LAMBALLE(1749-
        1792), fourth daughter of Louis Victor of Carignano (d. 1774) (great-
        grandfather of King Charles Albert of Sardinia), and of Christine
        Henriette of Hesse-Rheinfels-Rothenburg, born at Turin on the 8th of
        September 1749 ... married to Louis Alexandre Stanislaus de Bourbon,
        prince of Lamballe, son of the duke of Penthievre, a grandson of
        Louis XIV's natural son the count of Toulouse. Her husband dying the
        following year, she retired with her father-in-law to RambouHlet,
        where she lived until the marriage of the dauphin, when she returned
        to court."
        Aristocratic enough for you? Sufficiently at home with royalty? Just
        wait ...
        "Marie Antoinette, charmed by her gentle and naive manners, singled
        her out for a companion and confidante. The impetuous character of
        the dauphiness found in Madame de Lamballe that submissive
        temperament which yields to force of environment, and the two became
        fast friends. After her accession Marie Antoinette, in spite of the
        kings opposition, had her appointed superintendent of the royal
        household."
        To make a long story short, the Princesse remained so devoted to
        Marie Antoinette and the life of the Royal Court, the she returned
        from a trip to England to recruit aid for threatened French royalty
        to face virtual house arrest and certain doom. She was finally seized
        by the Revolutionary mob, and when she reused to sign an oath
        renouncing loyalty to French royalty, was put to the guillotine, and
        her head was put on a pike and paraded up and down in front of the
        royal residence.
        Lamballe itself was (and is) in Brittany, home of the southern branch
        of the Brythonic Celts of Wales and Cornwall. While this doesn't make
        the connection genetic, remember that royal genes tend to be bestowed
        transcontinentally .. and of course, the Princesse is only one source
        for our Mercy ... devotee of court life, if oly as a production
        assistant, even in the Milieu era. (The character of Felice Landry
        has an even bloodier precedent in 17th century France.) Later on,
        we'll see an even darker side to Mercy.
        Aiken Drum's real royalty comes from his amazing natural ability and
        the strength of this trickster's unfeigned passions, but they are
        related to royalty all along the way. It's best to read ALL the
        versions of the traditional Aiken Drum lyrics and poems, because they
        all contain elments that are building blocks of Aiken's character. In
        particular, "The Brownie of Blednoch," relates to both his remarkable
        talent as handyman and his relative lack of height. His Scots
        derivation, makes him, at the very least, an outstanding example of
        the Goidelic Celts of Ireland and Scotland.

        <snip> Now geography, there's something else I'm really interested
        in, NOT. Bad
        > teacher's at school put me off what I first found pretty
        interesting.
        > Julian's expertise at such data is very impressive, or is it
        bullshit, nah!<snip>
        Right you are .. nah. Only review JM's careeras an encyclopedia
        writer and editor, her juveniles in the natural sciences, and for a
        real giggle, the 90-volume SELECT reading list reading list in 'A
        Pliocene Companion'. She does take liberties with science and natural
        history -- deliberately, though, for the sake of building her story,
        and cheerfully acknowledged. It's a time-honored practice for artists
        of all sorts. JM is an ace researcher. She doesn't miss a trick.

        <snip>
        > CHAPTER 14
        > Then we come to Bryan's infatuation with Mercedes Siobhan Lamballe,
        what the
        > hell do all those numbers and letters mean? Crikeyyou'd need to go
        through
        > it with a fine tooth comb to sort that one out. <snip>
        Keep that fine tooth comb handy. You're going to need it.

        Gee Jason, after all thse wonderful pictures of Mount Washington,
        wouldn't it be nice if some talented artist who is really interested
        in the works of Julian May would come up with a nice visual of the
        Auberge while Group Green is still there? No? Maybe at least a nice
        description and a thumbnail or two?

        Alix
        Small file of Lamballe portrait follows.
      • Nicolette Lewer
        Hi Alix, The information about one of the sources for Mercy was quite interesting! Mercy s character is of course one that would feel happiest in a feudal
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 22, 2004
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          Hi Alix,

          The information about one of the 'sources' for Mercy was quite interesting! Mercy's
          character is of course one that would feel happiest in a feudal court situation. I'm
          curious as to what you found out in regards to Felice, since you mentioned that her
          character 'has an even bloodier precedent in 17th century France'.

          At this point in time in the story, Felice reminds Amerie of 'Pallas Athene' but a more
          accurate 'goddess description' would be Diana, Moon goddess and huntress who (if I
          remember rightly) punished men who saw her *cough* when she was in a state of
          undress. Of course, later on there are aspects of darker goddesses in her
          personality.....


          High Thoughts
          - Nicolette :-)

          JM herself has remarked on Mercy, Felice, and Aiken, as having
          > particularly importnt names. To avoid just plain confusing the
          > newbies, let's just say Celtic royalty (the model for the Tanu), but
          > look to more modern sources for the name and character than the
          > rabbit warren of Celtic mythology. We're still squarely in line with
          > the current chapters if we just do a thorough search on the name
          > Lamballe:
          > "MARIE THERESE LOUISE OF SAVOY-CARIGNANO, PRINCESSE DE LAMBALLE(1749-
          > 1792), fourth daughter of Louis Victor of Carignano (d. 1774) (great-
          > grandfather of King Charles Albert of Sardinia), and of Christine
          > Henriette of Hesse-Rheinfels-Rothenburg, born at Turin on the 8th of
          > September 1749 ... married to Louis Alexandre Stanislaus de Bourbon,
          > prince of Lamballe, son of the duke of Penthievre, a grandson of
          > Louis XIV's natural son the count of Toulouse. Her husband dying the
          > following year, she retired with her father-in-law to RambouHlet,
          > where she lived until the marriage of the dauphin, when she returned
          > to court."
          > Aristocratic enough for you? Sufficiently at home with royalty? Just
          > wait ...
          > "Marie Antoinette, charmed by her gentle and naive manners, singled
          > her out for a companion and confidante. The impetuous character of
          > the dauphiness found in Madame de Lamballe that submissive
          > temperament which yields to force of environment, and the two became
          > fast friends. After her accession Marie Antoinette, in spite of the
          > kings opposition, had her appointed superintendent of the royal
          > household."
          > To make a long story short, the Princesse remained so devoted to
          > Marie Antoinette and the life of the Royal Court, the she returned
          > from a trip to England to recruit aid for threatened French royalty
          > to face virtual house arrest and certain doom. She was finally seized
          > by the Revolutionary mob, and when she reused to sign an oath
          > renouncing loyalty to French royalty, was put to the guillotine, and
          > her head was put on a pike and paraded up and down in front of the
          > royal residence.
          > Lamballe itself was (and is) in Brittany, home of the southern branch
          > of the Brythonic Celts of Wales and Cornwall. While this doesn't make
          > the connection genetic, remember that royal genes tend to be bestowed
          > transcontinentally .. and of course, the Princesse is only one source
          > for our Mercy ... devotee of court life, if oly as a production
          > assistant, even in the Milieu era. (The character of Felice Landry
          > has an even bloodier precedent in 17th century France.) Later on,
          > we'll see an even darker side to Mercy.
        • Maurice Thomas
          I m on the side of the deleation placing Felice firmly in the Celtic. She s named Phyllis Morigel for a reason - similarity to Morrigan, the all powerful death
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 22, 2004
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            I'm on the side of the deleation placing Felice firmly in the Celtic.

            She's named Phyllis Morigel for a reason - similarity to Morrigan, the all
            powerful death crone of the celtic thang along with Macha and Bodb, although
            we ought to look at the cyclic nature of celtic divinity, whereby each
            persona had three aspects - maiden, mother and crone.

            Felice is the quintessential maiden to begin with - but after Cullwch's rape
            of her soul, she skips the mother phase and goes directly to crone.

            I haven't felt the need to re-read these chapetes, since I have them in
            memory most of the time anyway.

            The main thrust is actually, as another esteemed reader said, that decamole
            is the coolest thing since Laura San Giacomo.

            Noink.

            Maurice

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Nicolette Lewer [mailto:n.lewer@...]
            Sent: 22 January 2004 23:17
            To: Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Julian-May-discuss] Re: TMCL chapters 13-16


            Hi Alix,

            The information about one of the 'sources' for Mercy was quite interesting!
            Mercy's
            character is of course one that would feel happiest in a feudal court
            situation. I'm
            curious as to what you found out in regards to Felice, since you mentioned
            that her
            character 'has an even bloodier precedent in 17th century France'.

            At this point in time in the story, Felice reminds Amerie of 'Pallas Athene'
            but a more
            accurate 'goddess description' would be Diana, Moon goddess and huntress who
            (if I
            remember rightly) punished men who saw her *cough* when she was in a state
            of
            undress. Of course, later on there are aspects of darker goddesses in her
            personality.....


            High Thoughts
            - Nicolette :-)

            JM herself has remarked on Mercy, Felice, and Aiken, as having
            > particularly importnt names. To avoid just plain confusing the
            > newbies, let's just say Celtic royalty (the model for the Tanu), but
            > look to more modern sources for the name and character than the
            > rabbit warren of Celtic mythology. We're still squarely in line with
            > the current chapters if we just do a thorough search on the name
            > Lamballe:
            > "MARIE THERESE LOUISE OF SAVOY-CARIGNANO, PRINCESSE DE LAMBALLE(1749-
            > 1792), fourth daughter of Louis Victor of Carignano (d. 1774) (great-
            > grandfather of King Charles Albert of Sardinia), and of Christine
            > Henriette of Hesse-Rheinfels-Rothenburg, born at Turin on the 8th of
            > September 1749 ... married to Louis Alexandre Stanislaus de Bourbon,
            > prince of Lamballe, son of the duke of Penthievre, a grandson of
            > Louis XIV's natural son the count of Toulouse. Her husband dying the
            > following year, she retired with her father-in-law to RambouHlet,
            > where she lived until the marriage of the dauphin, when she returned
            > to court."
            > Aristocratic enough for you? Sufficiently at home with royalty? Just
            > wait ...
            > "Marie Antoinette, charmed by her gentle and naive manners, singled
            > her out for a companion and confidante. The impetuous character of
            > the dauphiness found in Madame de Lamballe that submissive
            > temperament which yields to force of environment, and the two became
            > fast friends. After her accession Marie Antoinette, in spite of the
            > kings opposition, had her appointed superintendent of the royal
            > household."
            > To make a long story short, the Princesse remained so devoted to
            > Marie Antoinette and the life of the Royal Court, the she returned
            > from a trip to England to recruit aid for threatened French royalty
            > to face virtual house arrest and certain doom. She was finally seized
            > by the Revolutionary mob, and when she reused to sign an oath
            > renouncing loyalty to French royalty, was put to the guillotine, and
            > her head was put on a pike and paraded up and down in front of the
            > royal residence.
            > Lamballe itself was (and is) in Brittany, home of the southern branch
            > of the Brythonic Celts of Wales and Cornwall. While this doesn't make
            > the connection genetic, remember that royal genes tend to be bestowed
            > transcontinentally .. and of course, the Princesse is only one source
            > for our Mercy ... devotee of court life, if oly as a production
            > assistant, even in the Milieu era. (The character of Felice Landry
            > has an even bloodier precedent in 17th century France.) Later on,
            > we'll see an even darker side to Mercy.





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          • Leticia Anderson
            Hi everyone, Well, I m really glad to be able to say I have actually fially joined the group read. The postings on TMCL had triggered that cascade of memories
            Message 5 of 8 , Feb 3, 2004
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              Hi everyone,

              Well, I'm really glad to be able to say I have actually fially joined
              the group read. The postings on TMCL had triggered that
              cascade of memories and musing which always indicate to me
              it is time to commence a re-read. So, I pulled out the dusty first
              volume of the Saga of the Exiles and began reading on Monday
              night. This is the first time I have seriously come back to Exiles
              since early 2000, as I think it was a reread of the full series
              which triggered the foundation of this list.

              I have in the past always preferred the milieu books, having read
              the Milieu series four or five or so times, Intervention perhaps
              more, but as for Exiles this is possibly only my third or fourth
              re-read. It's been an amazing re-discovery and I'm glad that I am
              reading it again at this point in time.

              I finished TMCL and am now halfway through GT, and the
              amazement hasn't dropped off. This really is an amazing series,
              but it is interesting because the aspects which I found most
              entrancing when I first read it (I was fourteen or so) are of course
              quite different from the aspects I notice and am captivated by
              now.

              I marked a lot of pages as I read and I will bring them up as the
              group read progresses through those chapters. There are a few
              thins though which jump out at me as a whole. One of these
              things is the way JM builds up the denoument that humanity's
              genes for the metafaculties descended to them from the alien
              Tanu and Firvulag. It seems pretty obvious reading through yet it
              is really developed very carefully, as is the possibility that the
              uncanny folklore traditions which seem exemplified by the
              exotics and their customs could actually derive from 'memories'
              of the Tanu and Firvulag.

              This leads on to a further point which has been debated on the
              list quite a lot. It has always seemed very strange that JM was so
              insistent that high metafunction was concentrated in the
              genepools of isolated racial groups. This seems a little unusual
              because JM herself has emphasised in her work both that
              metafunction is a dominant and also the importance of hybrid
              vigour. Perhaps she is simply underlining that human
              metafunction was for the most part inherited from
              Tanu-Firvulag/Hybrids, who would be expected to have retreated
              to isolated areas during the period of homo sapiens dominance.
              Therefore inbreeding and passing down genes kept in isolated
              groups??

              Another point which has struck me as I read TMCL is the
              predominance of Claude Majewski, whom I now know is the
              alter-ego of JM. Claude always seemed to me before as rather a
              backseat character - I was more interested in the characters with
              whom I personally identified more. It is interesting to note then
              that he occupies such a dominant but unobtrusive place in this
              novel. He also often provides a reserved, almost metafictional
              view of events and characters too, and I was more inclined to
              regard this now as an insight into JM's assessment of that
              issue. He is also clearly the voice of Group Green, and perhaps
              therefore ties JM to her creation. When they are captured by the
              Lowlives and are asked who speaks for them, Richard
              metaphorically rolls his eyes and asks "Who else?" pointing at
              Claude.
              Claude is not though bereft of heroic moments - he is after all
              not only the one who guides them to safety after the assault on
              Epone, the one who locates the Ship's Grave, who obtains the
              aid of the Howlers by pinpointing the cause of their deformities,
              he is also the hero who wields the Spear, not only ensuring the
              success of the seige of Finiah but also decisively closing the
              barium mine by a direct hit to the volcano. Nice work for an old
              bone-digger.

              I'll post again with more observations when I bring TMCL into
              work.

              slonshal ('Brian felt a shiver up his spine - surely a linguistic
              coincidence?')
              Leda
            • Leticia Anderson
              Hi everyone, Well, I ve been thinking pretty hard about the Exile series this re-read (I m now half way through NK). Two issues have concerned me about the
              Message 6 of 8 , Feb 5, 2004
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                Hi everyone,

                Well, I've been thinking pretty hard about the Exile series this
                re-read (I'm now half way through NK). Two issues have
                concerned me about the basic plot. They are musings generated
                by events in NK (the retelling of the arrival of the Rebels and the
                plot of the Rebel's Children to reopen the Gate), but they really
                resonate through the whole series.

                a) The Milieu assumed that there was nothing back in the
                Pliocene except a few chalikos and ramas. I think it is quite
                understandable that they wouldn't guess there were actually
                thousands of metapsychic aliens waiting in elder Earth to
                enslave the Exiles and use them in their senseless annual ritual
                warfare and for an elaborate breeding program. However, in
                2083 a party of a hundred masterclass operant metas, known to
                be highly violent, powerful, and even tyrannical, passes into
                Exile. I think I would be pretty worried about the Exiles being
                stuck in the Pliocene with a bunch of autocrats like the Rebels,
                who moreover possessed a considerable amount of contraband
                equipment giving them an even bigger legup on the Exiles. Yet
                they keep sending more through the gate - for a further 27 years.
                I thought about this and then postulated that perhaps Marc or
                even Unifex wiped the minds of the gate attendants at the
                auberge, concealing the fact that they had passed into Exile. Yet
                two pieces of information contradict this. The first is that the time
                gate was closed for 2 months after the Rebels passed through.
                This could possibly be put down to the inevitable disruption
                throughout the Milieu following the Rebellion - it seems more
                likely though a direct result of the disruption at the auberge
                caused by the Rebels passing through. Secondly, Elizabeth
                knows that the operants in North America are the rebels - how
                could she know this if she hadn't been aware the Rebels were in
                Elder Earth?

                b) My second problem is that the Rebels took with them all the
                plans and equipment necessary to construct a reverse time gate
                from the Pliocene side. If Guderian originally thought it was
                possible to construct a reverse gate on the Pliocene side
                wouldn't he have tried this? Particularly when Madame was
                sending people through I would have thought it would have been
                sensible to ask for specialist volunteers to go back to the
                Pliocene with all of the equipment and rare earths necessary to
                construct a gate and then get them to work on one there. Then it
                wouldn't have been a one way gate! If there was a problem with
                funding I am sure they could at the least have gotten travel
                companies to pay for it and open up 'Pliocene Holidays' - I bet
                Richard Branson would have jumped at the opportunity (I bet
                he'd still be around in 2060 too, having jumped at rejuv tech
                following the Intervention).

                Just some thoughts.

                Leda
              • Nicolette Lewer
                Hi there, It s good to see you have been lured into re-reading the Exiles books. :-) You have raised an interesting point about knowledge of the rebels going
                Message 7 of 8 , Feb 8, 2004
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                  Hi there,

                  It's good to see you have been lured into re-reading the Exiles books. :-)

                  You have raised an interesting point about knowledge of the rebels
                  going back through the time gate so I dug out my books....

                  In 'Magnificat' after Marc and his rebels got well and truly beaten,
                  it's related by Rogi how it took a while before people realised they
                  were missing. Rogi relates how the rebels went to France and then
                  through the gate, but it seems to me that he's saying this because AU
                  had told him what happened, not because he knew it did. Perhaps the
                  average person believed the rebels had been vaporised or fled
                  somewhere (but not necessarily thinking they went through the time
                  gate - the Milieu was a big place to hide in).

                  I believe there's a bit in 'Intervention' where Rogi says that
                  basically Marc wasted his life, he could have done a lot of good etc,
                  but refers to him in the past tense, as if he believes he's already dead.

                  In TMCL, a generation after the Rebellion, when Elizabeth goes through
                  to the past and meets Legolas...er, Creyn, she asks "You've had no
                  other operant metas come through?". It seems that she has no knowledge
                  that the rebels had gone through already. Creyn then relates that the
                  group of 100 operants had arrived 27 years ago but says that "they
                  were unable to adapt to our local conditions". At that point Liz says
                  (casually?) they were probably "fugitive rebels", not "oh $%#! it was
                  THOSE rebels" (which she says later on, without using my particular
                  choice of words ;-) ).

                  It's possible that there was a cover up (perhaps by AU) of the fact
                  that the rebels had gone back in time, so that time-travellers like
                  Liz had no idea they had already gone through.

                  (This is all just pure speculation and rambling on my part of course!)


                  High Thoughts
                  - Nicolette :-)


                  --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Leticia Anderson"
                  <leticia@r...> wrote:
                  > Hi everyone,
                  >
                  > Well, I've been thinking pretty hard about the Exile series this
                  > re-read (I'm now half way through NK). Two issues have
                  > concerned me about the basic plot. They are musings generated
                  > by events in NK (the retelling of the arrival of the Rebels and the
                  > plot of the Rebel's Children to reopen the Gate), but they really
                  > resonate through the whole series.
                  >
                  > a) The Milieu assumed that there was nothing back in the
                  > Pliocene except a few chalikos and ramas. I think it is quite
                  > understandable that they wouldn't guess there were actually
                  > thousands of metapsychic aliens waiting in elder Earth to
                  > enslave the Exiles and use them in their senseless annual ritual
                  > warfare and for an elaborate breeding program. However, in
                  > 2083 a party of a hundred masterclass operant metas, known to
                  > be highly violent, powerful, and even tyrannical, passes into
                  > Exile. I think I would be pretty worried about the Exiles being
                  > stuck in the Pliocene with a bunch of autocrats like the Rebels,
                  > who moreover possessed a considerable amount of contraband
                  > equipment giving them an even bigger legup on the Exiles. Yet
                  > they keep sending more through the gate - for a further 27 years.
                  > I thought about this and then postulated that perhaps Marc or
                  > even Unifex wiped the minds of the gate attendants at the
                  > auberge, concealing the fact that they had passed into Exile. Yet
                  > two pieces of information contradict this. The first is that the time
                  > gate was closed for 2 months after the Rebels passed through.
                  > This could possibly be put down to the inevitable disruption
                  > throughout the Milieu following the Rebellion - it seems more
                  > likely though a direct result of the disruption at the auberge
                  > caused by the Rebels passing through. Secondly, Elizabeth
                  > knows that the operants in North America are the rebels - how
                  > could she know this if she hadn't been aware the Rebels were in
                  > Elder Earth?
                  >
                  > b) My second problem is that the Rebels took with them all the
                  > plans and equipment necessary to construct a reverse time gate
                  > from the Pliocene side. If Guderian originally thought it was
                  > possible to construct a reverse gate on the Pliocene side
                  > wouldn't he have tried this? Particularly when Madame was
                  > sending people through I would have thought it would have been
                  > sensible to ask for specialist volunteers to go back to the
                  > Pliocene with all of the equipment and rare earths necessary to
                  > construct a gate and then get them to work on one there. Then it
                  > wouldn't have been a one way gate! If there was a problem with
                  > funding I am sure they could at the least have gotten travel
                  > companies to pay for it and open up 'Pliocene Holidays' - I bet
                  > Richard Branson would have jumped at the opportunity (I bet
                  > he'd still be around in 2060 too, having jumped at rejuv tech
                  > following the Intervention).
                  >
                  > Just some thoughts.
                  >
                  > Leda
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