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A loving metaconcert

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  • Leticia Anderson
    ... I too attended the protest (as well as the much smaller ones last year). Yesterday was a very special day, I am sure it will be one of the most amazing
    Message 1 of 18 , Feb 16, 2003
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      > I attended one of the many anti-war protests around the world. It was
      > freezing cold where I am, but it was quite rewarding. All these
      > people of very different backgrounds, thinking together, gathering the
      > coadunate energy to coerce the Prime Entelechy and perhaps the
      > uncoadunate who run our world...
      > --Homologous Trend.

      I too attended the protest (as well as the much smaller ones last year).
      Yesterday was a very special day, I am sure it will be one of the most
      amazing events of my life. I have sometimes wondered how I came to have the
      beliefs I do, and Julian May was undoubtedly very important in the
      development of my ideas about events like yesterday. I remember coming in to
      work a year and a half ago on September 11 and writing about my fears that
      our world would slip into the type of savage aggression and destruction that
      characterised the pre-Intervention years in the Milieu series. JM seems to
      me now to not have only been prophetic in predicting the escalation of the
      extremely unstable situation in the middle east but also the global
      upswelling of non-violent determination to reject what our 'leaders' try to
      perpetrate in our name - and its ultimate success.
      Somewhere between 10 and 30million people walked the streets in their home
      cities over this weekend, saying that enough is enough. I think that one of
      the most important things I learnt from JMs works is that while the
      immediate aims of such resistance may not be met, the ultimate goals of
      extinguishing war will eventually be achieved. Whilst Jack and Diamond's
      resistance did not save Okanagon, unity was born by the shared determination
      to *try* and stop it through love.
      I thought a lot about you all on this list as I stood, sat and walked with
      hundreds of thousands of protesters in Sydney. I felt totally at peace. In
      my mind the terms 'unity' and 'coadunation' kept sweeping through my head. I
      am sure most people there haven't read Milieu and so the terms wouldn't have
      the same significance for them that it would for us. But I am also sure that
      had everyone tried to describe what they felt it would have been pretty
      familiar to a JM reader.

      High thoughts,
      Leda
    • Ian J Greely
      I can remember seeing the pope visit Ireland once. In a field with 1.5 million other people. There is a very strong power to that many people gathered together
      Message 2 of 18 , Feb 16, 2003
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        I can remember seeing the pope visit Ireland once. In a field with 1.5
        million other people.

        There is a very strong power to that many people gathered together for
        a non "mob mentality" purpose. (If I recall correctly.)

        high thoughts indeed.
        Ian

        On Mon, 17 Feb 2003 13:09:03 +1100, you wrote:

        >
        >> I attended one of the many anti-war protests around the world. It was
        >> freezing cold where I am, but it was quite rewarding. All these
        >> people of very different backgrounds, thinking together, gathering the
        >> coadunate energy to coerce the Prime Entelechy and perhaps the
        >> uncoadunate who run our world...
        >> --Homologous Trend.
        >
        >I too attended the protest (as well as the much smaller ones last year).
        >Yesterday was a very special day, I am sure it will be one of the most
        >amazing events of my life. I have sometimes wondered how I came to have the
        >beliefs I do, and Julian May was undoubtedly very important in the
        >development of my ideas about events like yesterday. I remember coming in to
        >work a year and a half ago on September 11 and writing about my fears that
        >our world would slip into the type of savage aggression and destruction that
        >characterised the pre-Intervention years in the Milieu series. JM seems to
        >me now to not have only been prophetic in predicting the escalation of the
        >extremely unstable situation in the middle east but also the global
        >upswelling of non-violent determination to reject what our 'leaders' try to
        >perpetrate in our name - and its ultimate success.
        >Somewhere between 10 and 30million people walked the streets in their home
        >cities over this weekend, saying that enough is enough. I think that one of
        >the most important things I learnt from JMs works is that while the
        >immediate aims of such resistance may not be met, the ultimate goals of
        >extinguishing war will eventually be achieved. Whilst Jack and Diamond's
        >resistance did not save Okanagon, unity was born by the shared determination
        >to *try* and stop it through love.
        >I thought a lot about you all on this list as I stood, sat and walked with
        >hundreds of thousands of protesters in Sydney. I felt totally at peace. In
        >my mind the terms 'unity' and 'coadunation' kept sweeping through my head. I
        >am sure most people there haven't read Milieu and so the terms wouldn't have
        >the same significance for them that it would for us. But I am also sure that
        >had everyone tried to describe what they felt it would have been pretty
        >familiar to a JM reader.
        >
        >High thoughts,
        >Leda
        >
        >
        >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        >Julian-May-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
        >
        >
        >
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        >
        >
      • Ian J Greely
        I want to apologise for the tone of this post. It went further than I would wish. On this war/adventure I can see two sides. Were I in the position of Blair
        Message 3 of 18 , Feb 16, 2003
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          I want to apologise for the tone of this post. It went further than I
          would wish.

          On this "war/adventure" I can see two sides.

          Were I in the position of Blair or Bush I think that I would take him
          out and live with the burden it would place upon my conscience.

          I am simply glad that it is not my decision to make.

          Ian
        • Maurice Thomas
          Never apologise ! The good thing about flinging e-mails at one another is that they don t hurt (unless one gets personal). I m just keen on keeping the debate
          Message 4 of 18 , Feb 17, 2003
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            Never apologise !
             
            The good thing about flinging e-mails at one another is that they don't hurt (unless one gets personal).
             
            I'm just keen on keeping the debate fresh in people's minds, so that we can at least be informed of the issues when the bombs start falling (and crucially not take our cues from Piers Bloody Morgan and the Daily Mirror, which has never taken a principled stand on anything before now).
             
            I'd just pick up two of the things you mentioned :
             
            1 - I'm not at all convinced that the Iraqi army will give up immediately. Any veterans of the last war still alive will be telling their fresh faced young conscripts that last time, fire fell from the sky for a week AFTER they had surrendered. Not propaganda - that's just what happened. In that situation, I'd dig in like mad, since I'd know I was going to die anyway.
             
            2 - Mugabe is doing a tad more than exploit the situation and redress a past inequity. He's securing land for himself and the members of his tribe, and staving the rest of the country to death. But because he's from Africa and they don't have any oil, they're not considered worth rescuing. I have little sympathy for the white landowners, but their tenants are another thing.
             
            Have a nice day
             
            Maurice
             
            -----Original Message-----
            From: Ian J Greely [mailto:ian@...]
            Sent: 17 February 2003 05:55
            To: Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Julian-May-discuss] A loving metaconcert

            I want to apologise for the tone of this post. It went further than I
            would wish.

            On this "war/adventure" I can see two sides.

            Were I in the position of Blair or Bush I think that I would take him
            out and live with the burden it would place upon my conscience.

            I am simply glad that it is not my decision to make.

            Ian


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          • Ian J Greely
            ... This is definitely an English thing. In every country that england has left (Southern Ireland apart) it has left an inequality in the ownership of wealth.
            Message 5 of 18 , Feb 17, 2003
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              On Mon, 17 Feb 2003 09:55:24 -0000, you wrote:

              >2 - Mugabe is doing a tad more than exploit the situation and redress a past
              >inequity. He's securing land for himself and the members of his tribe, and
              >staving the rest of the country to death. But because he's from Africa and
              >they don't have any oil, they're not considered worth rescuing. I have
              >little sympathy for the white landowners, but their tenants are another
              >thing.
              >
              >Have a nice day
              >
              >Maurice
              >

              This is definitely an English thing. In every country that england has
              left (Southern Ireland apart) it has left an inequality in the
              ownership of wealth. i.e. It is the modus operandi of colonialism to
              place a minority in a higher state than the common mass of the colony
              nation. Without redressing this there is inevitable strife over the
              means to achieve a comfortable living.

              Mugabe is a chancer. He wants to gather more wealth for himself and
              taking a slice of the changeover of land from the Colonials to the
              natives is an effective method.

              Like the saying goes, "Behind every great fortune is a great crime."

              You think dear old Liz's wealth came from any other method?

              The people who work the land are unlikely to get much of a slice of
              the wealth. Much as the people who produce in any society get a small
              share of the wealth. There is a certain type of person who gets to
              amass wealth and Mugabe has a lot of them as his supporters.

              No-one wants to give wealth away.

              Not here, not there, not anywhere.

              What is happening in Zimbabwe is NECESSARY. People can spill blood and
              white colonials can whine and complain about it but... you cannot
              expect a government to allow all of it's wealth to be owned by those
              who are not of "the nation".

              I would do it in a different manner but, were I in Mugabe's position,
              I *would* do it. Ship 'em back to England and have done with it. It is
              just not right to allow things to stay as they were.

              The way it has been attempted is unfortunate but, in reality that
              nation does not have the wealth to compensate those who will lose
              their homes. All the wealth was taken over here. It's in our banks,
              our public buildings and the floor of the Victoria and Albert.

              Bitching about the past is unpleasant but refusing to accept that the
              future will come is also a pretty unappealing stance.

              Ian
            • Maurice Thomas
              If I were a Zimbabwean in charge of Zimbabwe, I would have taken the land into common ownership long ago, and given those white landowners that a) wanted to
              Message 6 of 18 , Feb 17, 2003
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                If I were a Zimbabwean in charge of Zimbabwe, I would have taken the land into common ownership long ago, and given those white landowners that a) wanted to remain, b) had no history of bad relations with the native peoples, and c) had lived there for twenty years or more, the opportunity to apply for jobs as assistant farm managers on the new collective farms, which would be owned and managed by the Zimbabwean people in perpetuity.
                 
                What I would not be doing, as your so-called chancer Mugabe is doing now, is throwing fellow black Zimbabwean natives off land he has taken for his tribe, and deliberately starving them to death. This is not NECESSARY, as you put it. It is abject evil, and not a necessary evil in any way, shape or form. The white farmers could afford to leave, and have done so. After a couple of weeks of splitting heads, Mugabe should have calmed the situation down and set about making sure his people all have something to eat, even if he wants to favour one group somewhat. But no - he has resolved to kill approximately ten million of his countrymen - and the crops have failed this year, since nobody planted anything in August, so he will have succeeded by about June, I'd imagine. Please realise, I am not bellyaching about a few Anglo/Dutch middle-class nazis who have been stealing land down there since the Boers - oh no. Mugabe is murdering his own brothers, and that sucks, big time.
                 
                I really do not understand how you can applaud an invasion of Iraq and at the same time let Mugabe get away so lightly. Unless you feel Saddam is more likely to invade another country in the near future, in which case I would ask you how, and with what. Bicycling against Jordan, perhaps, or maybe his next territorial move will be a big push into Turkey on pantomime horses. Or possibly a seaborne assault on Israel - although he'd have to take the entire fleet through Syria on the bus. But, since the Iraqi navy currently consists of a rowing boat from the Regent's park kids pool, with Saddam's brother Ali sitting up the sharp end with his uncle's shotgun, I think he may find it tricky to pose a significant threat to Israel's nuclear arsenal.
                 
                I would finally ask you to re-evaluate the following statement you made, more or less all of which I can't agree with. "The way it has been attempted is unfortunate..."  Unfortunate ?  It would be unfortunate if fifty people died; deeply saddening if five hundred perished. Anything more is bloody tragic. You then say "..but in reality that nation does not have the wealth to compensate those who will lose their homes". The people Mugabe is starving to death never had homes. Some of them made do with shacks round the back of farm buildings; others would live in shanties and walk ten miles to work. Now they live in huddled, nervous groups outside what international aid tents occasionally pop up on the windswept neo-desert. When, that is, Mugabe fails to notice an aid convoy sneaking over the border from South Africa. The rest of the time, the government confiscates the aid, beats up the aid workers, and distributes the booty to those that already have full bellies, so they can keep up their strength for the next round of tribal hate-crimes, beatings and political terror. Compensation has nothing to do with it - you can't eat compensation.
                 
                Maurice
                 
                -----Original Message-----
                From: Ian J Greely [mailto:ian@...]
                Sent: 17 February 2003 21:44
                To: Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Julian-May-discuss] A loving metaconcert

                On Mon, 17 Feb 2003 09:55:24 -0000, you wrote:

                >2 - Mugabe is doing a tad more than
                exploit the situation and redress a past
                >inequity. He's securing land for
                himself and the members of his tribe, and
                >staving the rest of the country
                to death. But because he's from Africa and
                >they don't have any oil,
                they're not considered worth rescuing. I have
                >little sympathy for the
                white landowners, but their tenants are another
                >thing.
                >
                >Have a nice
                day
                >
                >Maurice
                >

                This is definitely an English thing. In every country that england has
                left (Southern Ireland apart) it has left an inequality in the
                ownership of wealth. i.e. It is the modus operandi of colonialism to
                place a minority in a higher state than the common mass of the colony
                nation. Without redressing this there is inevitable strife over the
                means to achieve a comfortable living.

                Mugabe is a chancer. He wants to gather more wealth for himself and
                taking a slice of the changeover of land from the Colonials to the
                natives is an effective method.

                Like the saying goes, "Behind every great fortune is a great crime."

                You think dear old Liz's wealth came from any other method?

                The people who work the land are unlikely to get much of a slice of
                the wealth. Much as the people who produce in any society get a small
                share of the wealth. There is a certain type of person who gets to
                amass wealth and Mugabe has a lot of them as his supporters.

                No-one wants to give wealth away.

                Not here, not there, not anywhere.

                What is happening in Zimbabwe is NECESSARY. People can spill blood and
                white colonials can whine and complain about it but... you cannot
                expect a government to allow all of it's wealth to be owned by those
                who are not of "the nation".

                I would do it in a different manner but, were I in Mugabe's position,
                I *would* do it. Ship 'em back to England and have done with it. It is
                just not right to allow things to stay as they were.

                The way it has been attempted is unfortunate but, in reality that
                nation does not have the wealth to  compensate those who will lose
                their homes. All the wealth was taken over here. It's in our banks,
                our public buildings and the floor of the Victoria and Albert.

                Bitching about the past is unpleasant but refusing to accept that the
                future will come is also a pretty unappealing stance.

                Ian


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              • Ian J Greely
                It s not the same thing.
                Message 7 of 18 , Feb 17, 2003
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                  It's not the same thing.
                • Maurice Thomas
                  tis. ... From: Ian J Greely [mailto:ian@tirnanog.org] Sent: 18 February 2003 01:02 To: Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Julian-May-discuss] A
                  Message 8 of 18 , Feb 18, 2003
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                    'tis.
                     
                     
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Ian J Greely [mailto:ian@...]
                    Sent: 18 February 2003 01:02
                    To: Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [Julian-May-discuss] A loving metaconcert

                    It's not the same thing.




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                  • Ian J Greely
                    No. They are generations separated. One is 20/21st century annihilation. The other is Cromwell landing in Ireland and slaughtering every man woman and child in
                    Message 9 of 18 , Feb 18, 2003
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                      No. They are generations separated.

                      One is 20/21st century annihilation. The other is Cromwell landing in
                      Ireland and slaughtering every man woman and child in Irishtown,
                      Dublin.

                      Refusing to let another culture "grow up", having treated them as
                      children, is not "Good".

                      Most colonised nations once free will undertake to punish their former
                      masters lackeys. It not nice and I don't condone it but it is not the
                      same thing as taking to task a man who has mechanised the process

                      Ian

                      On Tue, 18 Feb 2003 09:24:42 -0000, you wrote:

                      >'tis.
                      >
                      >
                      >-----Original Message-----
                      >From: Ian J Greely [mailto:ian@...]
                      >Sent: 18 February 2003 01:02
                      >To: Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: Re: [Julian-May-discuss] A loving metaconcert
                      >
                      >
                      >It's not the same thing.
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                    • Maurice Thomas
                      I still can t see the separation. Hussein must be annihilated, because he is running a country created by Britain from disparate and warring tribes, and having
                      Message 10 of 18 , Feb 18, 2003
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                        I still can't see the separation.
                         
                        Hussein must be annihilated, because he is running a country created by Britain from disparate and warring tribes, and having unlawfully seized power he is busy killing his opponents.
                         
                        Mugabe is to be understood if not condoned, because he is running a country created by Britain from disparate and warring tribes, and having unlawfully seized power he is busy killing his opponents. And we mustn't stop him, for fear of stunting the growth of his fledgling fascist dictatorship.
                         
                        I personally feel that genocide, however one describes it, and whatever supposed historical excuses there are for it, is the worst crime there is. Reprehensible doesn't even cover it. And I still think more lives are at risk in Zimbabwe over the next year than are at risk in Iraq - good lives that will be shattered. Not politicians, not lackeys, not leaders - just people like me and thee with no say in what their bosses get up to.
                         
                        Tata
                         
                        Maurice
                         
                        ps. Apologies to all those that are not Ian and me. Please bleat if you have had enough of our off-topic shenanigans. :-)  Also an apology to Ian, if he needs or wants one - I'm just passionate about my despots. And yes, Cromwell was an evil bastard.
                         
                         
                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Ian J Greely [mailto:ian@...]
                        Sent: 18 February 2003 09:37
                        To: Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [Julian-May-discuss] A loving metaconcert

                        No. They are generations separated.

                        One is 20/21st century annihilation. The other is Cromwell landing in
                        Ireland and slaughtering every man woman and child in Irishtown,
                        Dublin.

                        Refusing to let another culture "grow up", having treated them as
                        children, is not "Good".

                        Most colonised nations once free will undertake to punish their former
                        masters lackeys. It not nice and I don't condone it but it is not the
                        same thing as taking to task a man who has mechanised the process

                        Ian

                        On Tue, 18 Feb 2003 09:24:42 -0000, you wrote:

                        >'tis.
                        >
                        >
                        >-----Original
                        Message-----
                        >From: Ian J Greely [mailto:ian@...]
                        >Sent: 18
                        February 2003 01:02
                        >To:
                        Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com
                        >Subject: Re: [Julian-May-discuss] A
                        loving metaconcert
                        >
                        >
                        >It's not the same
                        thing.
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                      • Ian J Greely
                        It s a Star Drek kind of a thing. The prime directive ... There is a progression of civilisation, as Ms May alludes to in her books. The psycho-social
                        Message 11 of 18 , Feb 18, 2003
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                          It's a Star Drek kind of a thing. "The prime directive"...

                          There is a progression of civilisation, as Ms May alludes to in her
                          books. The psycho-social maturation of a peoples. To attempt to force
                          a high technology viewpoint upon a low technology culture causes the
                          social dynamic to funk up.

                          Which is what the Iran thing is about. Certain people get into the
                          swing of what high-tech is about without having the basic moral
                          precepts that having "unlimited" options brings.

                          Left to themselves the nations of Islam could decide to have a Jihad
                          and it wouldn't matter. Sticks, stones and swords have inherent
                          limitations.

                          With those limitations it's physically IMPOSSIBLE for 10 Million
                          people to be pushed around. The ability <for a small number of people>
                          to push around 10 Million people is a technological innovation.

                          Mugabe is doing unpleasant stuff. But without guns manufactured in the
                          northern hemisphere it would be simply impossible.

                          To achieve the technology that is necessary to build such munitions
                          requires a level of social integration that precludes the type of
                          actions we are talking about. If you have enough techno-savy people to
                          build that stuff you automatically have a lot of people who are going
                          to be unhappy with any such genocide.

                          There is a single exception to that rule in history which stands out
                          as the lowpoint of human technology. However that only happened
                          because the "rest of us" refused egress to the people that were being
                          exterminated.

                          For a Sadam (that we created) we have an obligation to get rid of him.
                          For a group of people who have not had control to exercise for
                          hundreds of years the correct thing to do is to allow their targets an
                          escape.

                          We can't get catholics and protestant in Northern Ireland to let
                          little girls go to school without race hatrid from terrorising them.
                          Until we can get our own "race hate" into order we don't have the
                          necessary experience to be able to stop a Mugabe.

                          Sadam is a different matter. This is a man using our technology to
                          enmesh a country in a web of fear. Fear is more of a debilitating
                          enemy than anything humanity faces.

                          At some point 10 Million people can stand up for themselves. If not
                          you have to question who they are. OMMV

                          Even faced with the might of the pre-eminent Germany in WWII the
                          Jewish nation managed to achieve a Sobibor... Put a plate in front of
                          me to buy guns for the people that mugabe is trying to attack and they
                          have my money...

                          Sadam is a different game.

                          I do not believe that we should "take over" for any of these
                          countries. Perhaps we should go in and take mugabe out to hold a
                          trial... ala Miloslavic but we do not have the right to change the
                          opinions of the very large number of people who support his stance.

                          That is the job of history and evolution.

                          Ian

                          p.s. Ditto to Maurice's objections.

                          p.p.s. I appreciate the solve the worlds problems stance. I just don't
                          think it is possible to learn other people's lessons. OMMV

                          On Tue, 18 Feb 2003 20:48:41 -0000, you wrote:

                          >I still can't see the separation.
                          >
                          >Hussein must be annihilated, because he is running a country created by
                          >Britain from disparate and warring tribes, and having unlawfully seized
                          >power he is busy killing his opponents.
                          >
                          >Mugabe is to be understood if not condoned, because he is running a country
                          >created by Britain from disparate and warring tribes, and having unlawfully
                          >seized power he is busy killing his opponents. And we mustn't stop him, for
                          >fear of stunting the growth of his fledgling fascist dictatorship.
                          >
                          >I personally feel that genocide, however one describes it, and whatever
                          >supposed historical excuses there are for it, is the worst crime there is.
                          >Reprehensible doesn't even cover it. And I still think more lives are at
                          >risk in Zimbabwe over the next year than are at risk in Iraq - good lives
                          >that will be shattered. Not politicians, not lackeys, not leaders - just
                          >people like me and thee with no say in what their bosses get up to.
                          >
                          >Tata
                          >
                          >Maurice
                          >
                          >ps. Apologies to all those that are not Ian and me. Please bleat if you have
                          >had enough of our off-topic shenanigans. :-) Also an apology to Ian, if he
                          >needs or wants one - I'm just passionate about my despots. And yes, Cromwell
                          >was an evil bastard.
                          >
                          >
                          >-----Original Message-----
                          >From: Ian J Greely [mailto:ian@...]
                          >Sent: 18 February 2003 09:37
                          >To: Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com
                          >Subject: Re: [Julian-May-discuss] A loving metaconcert
                          >
                          >
                          >No. They are generations separated.
                          >
                          >One is 20/21st century annihilation. The other is Cromwell landing in
                          >Ireland and slaughtering every man woman and child in Irishtown,
                          >Dublin.
                          >
                          >Refusing to let another culture "grow up", having treated them as
                          >children, is not "Good".
                          >
                          >Most colonised nations once free will undertake to punish their former
                          >masters lackeys. It not nice and I don't condone it but it is not the
                          >same thing as taking to task a man who has mechanised the process
                          >
                          >Ian
                          >
                          >On Tue, 18 Feb 2003 09:24:42 -0000, you wrote:
                          >
                          >>'tis.
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>-----Original Message-----
                          >>From: Ian J Greely [mailto:ian@...]
                          >>Sent: 18 February 2003 01:02
                          >>To: Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com
                          >>Subject: Re: [Julian-May-discuss] A loving metaconcert
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>It's not the same thing.
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
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                        • Maurice Thomas
                          I think we ve pretty much got to the end of the useful slack in this debate, probably...:-) One thing, though - you use the acronym OMMV a lot - whassat mean ?
                          Message 12 of 18 , Feb 18, 2003
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                            I think we've pretty much got to the end of the useful slack in this debate, probably...:-)
                             
                            One thing, though - you use the acronym OMMV a lot - whassat mean ?
                             
                            In slight relation to what you say below about psycho-social maturity, I was interested to see a documentary on various species of monkeys and apes in east Africa last week, and it was found that as their social groups got larger, their brains became commenusrately more powerful in order for them to deal with the added complexity of their relationships. Presumably, however, there is some sort of cut-off point at which the large brain starts pointing out that it is a bit crowded round here, and wouldn't it be a lot easier to think straight if there weren't so many monkeys cluttering up the place, chattering, grooming, and generally knocking the hell out of one another with jaw-bones from last night's dinner, and worshipping monoliths.
                             
                            I think this evolutionary change takes place, sadly but crucially, just AFTER the society of monkeys concerned discovers war and fast food. In honour of Douglas Adams, I shall call this the "MacDonalds' Event Horizon". Simply put, if you have become intelligent enough to realise that you should never set foot in a MacDonalds' restaurant, or buy an Exocet missile, it means you are part of a society that is so crowded that, no matter where you go, you will be confronted by endless MacDonalds' and Starbucks', and nothing else - except Donald Rumsfeld. Not a terribly helpful or paradigmatic theory, I realise, but suitably pessimistic for the time of year, I think.
                             
                            Hey ho - it could be worse - our president could be a chimp. Coming to a theatre of war near you - "Dunstan Does Basra"
                             
                            Night night
                            Maurice
                             
                             
                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Ian J Greely [mailto:ian@...]
                            Sent: 18 February 2003 22:28
                            To: Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [Julian-May-discuss] A loving metaconcert

                            It's a Star Drek kind of a thing. "The prime directive"...

                            There is a progression of civilisation, as Ms May alludes to in her
                            books. The psycho-social maturation of a peoples. To attempt to force
                            a high technology viewpoint upon a low technology culture causes the
                            social dynamic to funk up.

                            Which is what the Iran thing is about. Certain people get into the
                            swing of what high-tech is about without having the basic moral
                            precepts that having "unlimited" options brings.

                            Left to themselves the nations of Islam could decide to have a Jihad
                            and it wouldn't matter. Sticks, stones and swords have inherent
                            limitations.

                            With those limitations it's physically IMPOSSIBLE for 10 Million
                            people to be pushed around. The ability <for a small number of people>
                            to push around 10 Million people is a technological innovation.

                            Mugabe is doing unpleasant stuff. But without guns manufactured in the
                            northern hemisphere it would be simply impossible.

                            To achieve the technology that is necessary to build such munitions
                            requires a level of social integration that precludes the type of
                            actions we are talking about. If you have enough techno-savy people to
                            build that stuff you automatically have a lot of people who are going
                            to be unhappy with any such genocide.

                            There is a single exception to that rule in history which stands out
                            as the lowpoint of human technology. However that only happened
                            because the "rest of us" refused egress to the people that were being
                            exterminated.

                            For a Sadam (that we created) we have an obligation to get rid of him.
                            For a group of people who have not had control to exercise for
                            hundreds of years the correct thing to do is to allow their targets an
                            escape.

                            We can't get catholics and protestant in Northern Ireland to let
                            little girls go to school without race hatrid from terrorising them.
                            Until we can get our own "race hate" into order we don't have the
                            necessary experience to be able to stop a Mugabe.

                            Sadam is a different matter. This is a man using our technology to
                            enmesh a country in a web of fear. Fear is more of a debilitating
                            enemy than anything humanity faces.

                            At some point 10 Million people can stand up for themselves. If not
                            you have to question who they are. OMMV

                            Even faced with the might of the pre-eminent Germany in WWII the
                            Jewish nation managed to achieve a Sobibor... Put a plate in front of
                            me to buy guns for the people that mugabe is trying to attack and they
                            have my money...

                            Sadam is a different game.

                            I do not believe that we should "take over" for any of these
                            countries. Perhaps we should go in and take mugabe out to hold a
                            trial... ala Miloslavic but we do not have the right to change the
                            opinions of the very large number of people who support his stance.

                            That is the job of history and evolution.

                            Ian

                            p.s. Ditto to Maurice's objections.

                            p.p.s. I appreciate the solve the worlds problems stance. I just don't
                            think it is possible to learn other people's lessons. OMMV

                            On Tue, 18 Feb 2003 20:48:41 -0000, you wrote:

                            >I still can't see the
                            separation.
                            >
                            >Hussein must be annihilated, because he is running a
                            country created by
                            >Britain from disparate and warring tribes, and having
                            unlawfully seized
                            >power he is busy killing his
                            opponents.
                            >
                            >Mugabe is to be understood if not condoned, because he
                            is running a country
                            >created by Britain from disparate and warring
                            tribes, and having unlawfully
                            >seized power he is busy killing his
                            opponents. And we mustn't stop him, for
                            >fear of stunting the growth of
                            his fledgling fascist dictatorship.
                            >
                            >I personally feel that
                            genocide, however one describes it, and whatever
                            >supposed historical
                            excuses there are for it, is the worst crime there is.
                            >Reprehensible
                            doesn't even cover it. And I still think more lives are at
                            >risk in
                            Zimbabwe over the next year than are at risk in Iraq - good lives
                            >that
                            will be shattered. Not politicians, not lackeys, not leaders - just
                            >people like me and thee with no say in what their bosses get up
                            to.
                            >
                            >Tata
                            >
                            >Maurice
                            >
                            >ps. Apologies to
                            all those that are not Ian and me. Please bleat if you have
                            >had enough of
                            our off-topic shenanigans. :-)  Also an apology to Ian, if he
                            >needs
                            or wants one - I'm just passionate about my despots. And yes, Cromwell
                            >was an evil bastard.
                            >
                            >
                            >-----Original
                            Message-----
                            >From: Ian J Greely [mailto:ian@...]
                            >Sent: 18
                            February 2003 09:37
                            >To:
                            Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com
                            >Subject: Re: [Julian-May-discuss] A
                            loving metaconcert
                            >
                            >
                            >No. They are generations
                            separated.
                            >
                            >One is 20/21st century annihilation. The other is
                            Cromwell landing in
                            >Ireland and slaughtering every man woman and child in
                            Irishtown,
                            >Dublin.
                            >
                            >Refusing to let another culture "grow
                            up", having treated them as
                            >children, is not "Good".
                            >
                            >Most
                            colonised nations once free will undertake to punish their former
                            >masters
                            lackeys. It not nice and I don't condone it but it is not the
                            >same thing
                            as taking to task a man who has mechanised the process
                            >
                            >Ian
                            >
                            >On Tue, 18 Feb 2003 09:24:42 -0000,
                            you wrote:
                            >
                            >>'tis.
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>-----Original
                            Message-----
                            >>From: Ian J Greely
                            [mailto:ian@...]
                            >>Sent: 18 February 2003 01:02
                            >>To:
                            Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com
                            >>Subject: Re: [Julian-May-discuss]
                            A loving metaconcert
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>It's not the same
                            thing.
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>     
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                          • Ian J Greely
                            ... It s a variant of YMMV. Your milage may vary. OMMV Others milage may vary. Use to indicate that difference in personal experience are expected. all the
                            Message 13 of 18 , Feb 18, 2003
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                              On Tue, 18 Feb 2003 23:57:19 -0000, you wrote:

                              >One thing, though - you use the acronym OMMV a lot - whassat mean ?

                              It's a variant of YMMV. Your milage may vary. OMMV Others milage may
                              vary. Use to indicate that difference in personal experience are
                              expected.

                              all the best
                              Ian
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