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Re: [Julian-May-discuss] To Leticia

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  • Leticia Anderson
    ... He s definitely a cold fish. I think you may have hit the nail on the head when you say the people around him found his icy manner a challenge . I think
    Message 1 of 4 , Jul 30, 2000
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      --- nicolel@... wrote:
      > Hi Leticia,
      >
      > I agree with you that at the same time you think
      > Marc is well, scum you
      > can't help be fascinated by him, and that the people
      > around him did see his
      > icy manner as a challenge to get through to him
      > (ironically, Elizabeth
      > dismissed him initially as a lost cause and someone
      > you wouldn't touch with
      > a 10 foot pole).

      He's definitely a cold fish. I think you may have hit
      the nail on the head when you say the people around
      him found his 'icy manner' a 'challenge'. I think that
      is the thing that always fascinated me about him - the
      rock solid belief that someone so brilliant, so
      captivating _must_ have a heart. But so much of the
      time he showed absolutely no evidence of that being
      true. I think that is why so many people who loved him
      e.g. Cynthia, Jack, Patricia, Adrienne, thought that
      if only the could get a little closer to him, be there
      for him, he would open up and love them in the way
      they loved him. But he never really did. Actually,
      take that back for Jack - I think Marc did love him in
      the beginning, but this love got lost in his obsession
      with Jack's mutation. He no longer saw his brother,
      but someone who couldn't accept the 'gift' they had
      been given.
      I think you are right in pointing out Elizabeth as the
      exception. I earnestly _want_ to believe that Marc
      really did love her. I do have my doubts but. Maybe he
      came close, but not quite close enough to redeem
      himself. As AU, he still displays so many of the
      meglomaniacal and obsessive traits that characterised
      Marc the A***hole. But, I did not feel that Elizabeth
      'dismissed' him as such. I felt more that she was
      terrified of him - or more accurately, perhaps,
      terrified of what she might feel for him. He was
      anathema, the Angel of the Abyss, but I think right
      from her first contact with him she was feeling that
      same attraction towards him that we have been
      discussing. She was fascinated by Abaddon, and found
      that unforgiveable in herself. She secretly wanted the
      challenge of making Marc love, and perhaps she
      actually did the impossible (and she was fully
      cognizant of that impossibility) and bought real love
      from him.
      Read the scene in THE ADVERSARY where he d-jumps in
      his full CE rig and helps her with that black torc.
      She is terrified of linking with him, and I don't
      think it is just the understandable fear of the Devil
      stealing her mind. When he takes the focus in the
      metaconcert from her, she panics and is incredibly
      angry with him, but subliminally I think they are both
      aware that she wanted to sucumb. To his superior MP
      assay and his overwhelming charm.


      > One thing I disagree with is the point that he
      > *made* the Lylmik into their
      > discorporeal form, as he mentions in 'Diamond Mask'
      > that he 'adopted their
      > peculiar race as my own', which seems to imply that
      > they were already
      > discorporeal, and that by then he was discorporeal
      > himself. How? Did he
      > forcibly jump to the next step in evolution or was
      > there some weird genes he
      > had like Jon that changed him. Or maybe evolution
      > into a discorporeal form
      > would have happened by itself anyway, and I don't
      > really see that as a
      > horrible thing (although the way Marc tried to force
      > this process in
      > 'Magnificat' is unforgiveable).

      I don't know about this. This is one of the major
      ambiguities of the novels which I think each reader
      has to decide upon alone. There are a few
      possibilities here: Marc fully atoned, found the
      Lylmik and became one of them, then guiding humankind
      + exotics towards a higher evolutionary goal that was
      inevitable anyway. Or, Marc did not fully atone but
      changed the Lylmik into Mental Man, THEN atoned and
      developed the scheme to realease Rogi's
      autobiographies in order to prevent the same thing
      happening again. Or, Marc never fully atoned, only
      seemed to atone. He never gave up his end goal of
      Mental Man though the methods by which he engendered
      this became more ethical (Mental Man project =
      horrific; Lylmik = worked but ended in stagnation for
      the race; Humans = inevitable anyway?).
      I think I would argue for the second option. There are
      too many clues to the Lylmik form (or lack thereof)
      being Marc's doing. In DIAMOND MASK, the Quincunx
      debate themselves on their racial orgins and the fact
      that they are incredibly similar to Jack. In fact,
      They say that he is more akin to themselves than to
      his own genetic kind. His brain in _different_ to
      humans - and who knew more about Jackforming than
      Marc???? Besides, I think it unlikely that Marc would
      have been discorporeal prior to leaving the Duat
      galaxy. After all, his corporeal form was immortal and
      he had the ability to transport it intergalactically.
      I think (just a hunch) that he went to the Lylmik in
      his corporeal form and over generations of experiment,
      managed to make himself and them discorporeal. Perhaps
      they already had evolutionary leanings that way: I
      think it more than likely. Do you think Elizabeth
      would have out up with Marc becoming a Mental Man
      while he was in the Duat galaxy with her?
      The possbility that Marc 'jackformed' the Lylmik is
      voiced with rage by Hagen Remillard at the beginning
      of MAGNIFICAT.


      humans would in a
      > million years time evolve into discorporeal beings
      > and yet retain their
      > humanity and help others.

      This was the whole point about Jack - he didn't have
      humn form but he was eminently human. That was exactly
      what made Marc's Mental Man project so horrifying -
      what he produced wouldn't have been human in form or
      mind. The Lylmik were not either. And only time would
      provide the ultimate redemption for or indictment of
      Marc: having set Man along the path to discorporality,
      the end result would be the judge of his intentions.
      If they became Jacks then he was good and he atoned.
      If they became Mental Men, then he never really
      changed.


      Having
      > realised what a horrible
      > person he's been he also starts carrying guilt (and
      > fear?) for the rest of
      > his life that he might resort to his former evil
      > ways, which was a kind of
      > suffering in itself. No, it wasn't enough for what
      > he had done, but it was a
      > start.

      The kahuna Malama suggests this in MAGNIFICAT and I'm
      inclined to believe her, but I still can't let myslef
      believe totally.....

      I'll leave it at that for now, but thanks a million
      for the Frontier contact ;-)

      Leticia



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    • Ian J Greely
      ... Interesting points. Do not forget the mental man project. The Lylmik take the children (read AU) and we hear no more of them. As I ve alluded in my other
      Message 2 of 4 , Jul 30, 2000
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        On Sun, 30 Jul 2000 22:02:47 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

        >> One thing I disagree with is the point that he
        >> *made* the Lylmik into their
        >> discorporeal form, as he mentions in 'Diamond Mask'
        >> that he 'adopted their
        >> peculiar race as my own', which seems to imply that
        >> they were already
        >> discorporeal, and that by then he was discorporeal
        >> himself. How? Did he
        >> forcibly jump to the next step in evolution or was
        >> there some weird genes he
        >> had like Jon that changed him. Or maybe evolution
        >> into a discorporeal form
        >> would have happened by itself anyway, and I don't
        >> really see that as a
        >> horrible thing (although the way Marc tried to force
        >> this process in
        >> 'Magnificat' is unforgiveable).
        >
        >I don't know about this. This is one of the major
        >ambiguities of the novels which I think each reader
        >has to decide upon alone. There are a few
        >possibilities here: Marc fully atoned, found the
        >Lylmik and became one of them, then guiding humankind
        >+ exotics towards a higher evolutionary goal that was
        >inevitable anyway. Or, Marc did not fully atone but
        >changed the Lylmik into Mental Man, THEN atoned and
        >developed the scheme to realease Rogi's
        >autobiographies in order to prevent the same thing
        >happening again. Or, Marc never fully atoned, only
        >seemed to atone. He never gave up his end goal of
        >Mental Man though the methods by which he engendered
        >this became more ethical (Mental Man project =
        >horrific; Lylmik = worked but ended in stagnation for
        >the race; Humans = inevitable anyway?).
        >I think I would argue for the second option. There are
        >too many clues to the Lylmik form (or lack thereof)
        >being Marc's doing. In DIAMOND MASK, the Quincunx
        >debate themselves on their racial orgins and the fact
        >that they are incredibly similar to Jack. In fact,
        >They say that he is more akin to themselves than to
        >his own genetic kind. His brain in _different_ to
        >humans - and who knew more about Jackforming than
        >Marc???? Besides, I think it unlikely that Marc would
        >have been discorporeal prior to leaving the Duat
        >galaxy. After all, his corporeal form was immortal and
        >he had the ability to transport it intergalactically.
        >I think (just a hunch) that he went to the Lylmik in
        >his corporeal form and over generations of experiment,
        >managed to make himself and them discorporeal. Perhaps
        >they already had evolutionary leanings that way: I
        >think it more than likely. Do you think Elizabeth
        >would have out up with Marc becoming a Mental Man
        >while he was in the Duat galaxy with her?
        >The possbility that Marc 'jackformed' the Lylmik is
        >voiced with rage by Hagen Remillard at the beginning
        >of MAGNIFICAT.
        >

        Interesting points. Do not forget the mental man project. The Lylmik
        take the children (read AU) and we hear no more of them. As I've
        alluded in my other post the people I know, who had read the series,
        all conjectured upon the idea that the knots only start to unravel
        with two time jumps back wards...

        Consider the idea of AU jumping back, with the babies, engendering the
        Lylmik for the earlier version of himself to make contact with. We
        know that in Mays world time travel is feasable. Mark has already
        mastered the manipulation of fields to allow him to d-jump...

        We also know that AU isn't above dealing directly with his previous
        self.

        It's moot given that we are not privy to the end AU see's for himself.
        (Though it's interesting that he know's that he will be off the scene
        at a certain point.) It just struck most of us as so odd that a
        character with Marks self assurance wouldn't have made contact with
        himself at some point. Thinking about it who could resist such a
        meeting given it's possibility? We know it's possible from the
        encouter on Orb.

        The question would then be "does time exist outside of this bubble?".
        Mark as God? *shudder*

        regards,
        Ian

        "You know that bit where Lister jump starts the second big bang with
        jump leads from StarBug?...

        Well that's the final irony isn't it? Lister the ultimate atheist
        turns out in fact to be God..." Red Dwarf V - Back to Reality.
      • Leticia Anderson
        ... Whaaaat? I m going to have to reread MAGNIFICAT tonight. I thought that the earthquake killed the Hydra paramounts. Do you mean the embryos that were not
        Message 3 of 4 , Jul 31, 2000
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          > Interesting points. Do not forget the mental man
          > project. The Lylmik
          > take the children (read AU) and we hear no more of
          > them.

          Whaaaat? I'm going to have to reread MAGNIFICAT
          tonight. I thought that the earthquake killed the
          Hydra paramounts. Do you mean the embryos that were
          not made into mental man children....none of those
          were paramounts as I recall. I don't recall the Lylmik
          taking them.

          As I've
          > alluded in my other post the people I know, who had
          > read the series,
          > all conjectured upon the idea that the knots only
          > start to unravel
          > with two time jumps back wards...
          >
          > Consider the idea of AU jumping back, with the
          > babies, engendering the
          > Lylmik for the earlier version of himself to make
          > contact with. We
          > know that in Mays world time travel is feasable.
          > Mark has already
          > mastered the manipulation of fields to allow him to
          > d-jump...

          The Lylmik were given to strange experimentation, e.g.
          the creation of Orb. But do you really think Marc
          would have learned manipulation of time even as AU?
          That was of course the problem that he faced for all
          those insane years on Pliocene Earth. I thought he
          would have learned the time jump then if ever. Of
          course, it took Felice to teach him to d-jump (LOL!).

          > We also know that AU isn't above dealing directly
          > with his previous
          > self.

          Yes, but I think it suited his sense of humour to
          remain anonymous. Particularly in the scene at the end
          of Magnificat. He has forgotten that the quote Marc
          spouts at him comes from Giambattista Marino. That
          quote is about having undertaken something grand and
          failing - and the achievement being simply in the
          attempt. I would think that AU would have recalled
          this very clearly if he was really a evil genius with
          a masterplan that he had fostered over six million
          years.
          After all, it would have appealed to him then that
          Marc had not failed at all. However, he seems to be
          very blase about the whole thing.

          > It's moot given that we are not privy to the end AU
          > see's for himself.
          > (Though it's interesting that he know's that he will
          > be off the scene
          > at a certain point.)

          He knows this through prolepsis - and we know he isn't
          pretending to have foresight for all Lylmik had that
          skill to some degree. I would argue for the end scene
          of MAGNIFICAT when he asks Rogi to pray for him as
          evidence against any serious evilness - it is very
          touching and it most definitely seems like he is gone
          for good then. I imagine he decided to lay down his
          life as Elizabeth had milennia before.


          > The question would then be "does time exist outside
          > of this bubble?".
          > Mark as God? *shudder*

          I have to go for a bus now so I'll respond in more
          detail on that point later...
          leticia



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        • Ian J Greely
          ... Well, as I recall it s the materials. The for the masses stuff as well as, I think, maddies ovary... Even the for the masses materials would be enough
          Message 4 of 4 , Jul 31, 2000
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            On Mon, 31 Jul 2000 02:01:41 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

            >
            >> Interesting points. Do not forget the mental man
            >> project. The Lylmik
            >> take the children (read AU) and we hear no more of
            >> them.
            >
            >Whaaaat? I'm going to have to reread MAGNIFICAT
            >tonight. I thought that the earthquake killed the
            >Hydra paramounts. Do you mean the embryos that were
            >not made into mental man children....none of those
            >were paramounts as I recall. I don't recall the Lylmik
            >taking them.

            Well, as I recall it's the materials. The "for the masses" stuff as
            well as, I think, maddies ovary...

            Even the for the masses materials would be enough given the timelines
            over which it runs...

            However, as I said it's moot. May didn't take the story that way and
            gave us a nice star trek ending.

            "Damn all we really had to do was realign the tri-lithium crystal
            through the phased plasma generator and reconstruct the di-lithium
            crystals."

            As I said I was disappointed with Magnificat. As were most of the
            people I know who had followed the series. You get used to it with Sci
            Fi though... *shrug* The rest of the series rocks and you get to enjoy
            what was constructed in the end.

            You do have to realise that many of us read the first books over 12
            years ago and were waiting for each new book for several years.
            >
            >
            >The Lylmik were given to strange experimentation, e.g.
            >the creation of Orb. But do you really think Marc
            >would have learned manipulation of time even as AU?
            >That was of course the problem that he faced for all
            >those insane years on Pliocene Earth. I thought he
            >would have learned the time jump then if ever. Of
            >course, it took Felice to teach him to d-jump (LOL!).
            >

            Indeed. We are told that in the science of the Mileu this was heard of
            but not understood. Whereas the time gate was fully understood and had
            been built with machines.

            Again it's beside the point. May didn't choose to take us there...
            Oddly enough conjecture with friends was a lot more fun than the last
            book. Though even were it her intent to take things that far it would
            be understandable for a writer not to want to loose *that* upon the
            world.

            Certainly her later stuff is more comic book in style. Jolly good
            stuff but without the darkness of the Milleu etc.

            >
            >Yes, but I think it suited his sense of humour to
            >remain anonymous. Particularly in the scene at the end
            >of Magnificat. He has forgotten that the quote Marc
            >spouts at him comes from Giambattista Marino. That
            >quote is about having undertaken something grand and
            >failing - and the achievement being simply in the
            >attempt. I would think that AU would have recalled
            >this very clearly if he was really a evil genius with
            >a masterplan that he had fostered over six million
            >years.
            LOL.

            >After all, it would have appealed to him then that
            >Marc had not failed at all. However, he seems to be
            >very blase about the whole thing.

            Things often take time and other things...

            >
            >> It's moot given that we are not privy to the end AU
            >> see's for himself.
            >> (Though it's interesting that he know's that he will
            >> be off the scene
            >> at a certain point.)
            >
            >He knows this through prolepsis - and we know he isn't
            >pretending to have foresight for all Lylmik had that
            >skill to some degree. I would argue for the end scene
            >of MAGNIFICAT when he asks Rogi to pray for him as
            >evidence against any serious evilness - it is very
            >touching and it most definitely seems like he is gone
            >for good then. I imagine he decided to lay down his
            >life as Elizabeth had milennia before.

            That can work for me in a rather soft kind of way.

            However, having had the arrogance to decide that one was the hand of
            God I can relate to wanting to have someone at least prepared to pray
            for one. We all play the hand we are dealt.

            The scene works far better (for me) with, as you put it, the evil
            genius with a masterplay that he had fostered over six million years.

            Strikes me as a rather lonely role to play. One I certainly would not
            envy. To know ones mind and to then just do it. To do otherwise is to
            deny the gifts one is endowed with. If there is a God Mark is a lot
            nearer his maker at this point in the story than at any other point.

            Remember waiting for the results of your final exam?
            >
            >
            >> The question would then be "does time exist outside
            >> of this bubble?".
            >> Mark as God? *shudder*
            >
            >I have to go for a bus now so I'll respond in more
            >detail on that point later...
            >leticia
            >
            >
            >
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