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Equal Rights

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  • g.norfolk
    I have a problem with big countries telling small countries how to live their lives. Who gives us in the west the right to dictate who should rule given
    Message 1 of 16 , Dec 20, 2002
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      I have a problem with 'big' countries telling 'small' countries how to live their lives. Who gives us in the west the right to dictate who should rule given countries, what policies they should persue, what weapons they can have.
       
      Its like a big bully saying "I've got a big stick and you're not allowed to have one and if you try to pick one up I'm gonna come and hit you".
       
      It is sheer hypocracy.
       
      Helen
    • Ian J Greely
      The Greater Good? Our sanctions against Iraq will, most likely, kill more people than our taking out Sadam. Not to mention the amount of misery that will be
      Message 2 of 16 , Dec 20, 2002
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        The Greater Good?

        Our sanctions against Iraq will, most likely, kill more people than
        our taking out Sadam. Not to mention the amount of misery that will be
        inflicted upon ordinary people by a continuation of the status quo.

        Personally I think I'd rather take the risk of a quick death in a war
        than a long drawn out misery of denial. OMMV

        Ian

        On Fri, 20 Dec 2002 21:36:56 -0000, you wrote:

        >I have a problem with 'big' countries telling 'small' countries how to live their lives. Who gives us in the west the right to dictate who should rule given countries, what policies they should persue, what weapons they can have.
        >
        >Its like a big bully saying "I've got a big stick and you're not allowed to have one and if you try to pick one up I'm gonna come and hit you".
        >
        >It is sheer hypocracy.
        >
        >Helen
      • George <geoclayfeet@aol.com>
        I use playground metaphors a lot when I think about foreign policy . Perhaps it s psychosocially immature to assume we keep smashing against different
        Message 3 of 16 , Dec 20, 2002
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          I use playground metaphors a lot when I think about "foreign
          policy". Perhaps it's psychosocially immature to assume we keep
          smashing against different versions of the same "traumas," or that a
          nation comprised of individuals can be regarded as a unified persona.
          I'm not sure the metaphor's really useful, I just like it. I know it
          breaks down. The playground monitor would always come out before
          we'd decided who "won" the game and say, "Okay, kids, playtime's
          over. Time to put the weapons of mass destruction away; they'll still
          be there tomorrow." Actually, I never got involved in the ball
          games; it was too humiliating to be so near the last chosen for teams
          every time. I was much more into playing "spaceship" on the monkey
          bars.
          I agree with you, Helen. In case it's not obvious, I'm from the
          U.S. I am VERY aware that I live in a nation that behaves like a
          playground bully. On the other hand, I remember a conversation I had
          with a german family once; they told me that europe expects america
          to serve as the "cops" of the world - any non-U.S. nationals want to
          weigh in on that?
          Ian, I've come from a pretty ugly place in my life, and I'd
          seriously considered suicide; I still think of it as an option from
          time to time - "I ain't outta the woods yet." The Buddhists say that
          all life is suffering, and that it comes from attatchment. I'm still
          attatched to my life, and I still suffer. I guess I prefer the drawn
          out misery every day I'm alive...
        • Ian J Greely
          ... Psychosocially immature? Perhaps, but then I d have to join you in that label as would most of the people I respect. *shrug* If
          Message 4 of 16 , Dec 20, 2002
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            On Sat, 21 Dec 2002 05:30:18 -0000, you wrote:

            > I use playground metaphors a lot when I think about "foreign
            >policy". Perhaps it's psychosocially immature to assume we keep
            >smashing against different versions of the same "traumas," or that a
            >nation comprised of individuals can be regarded as a unified persona.
            >I'm not sure the metaphor's really useful, I just like it. I know it
            >breaks down. The playground monitor would always come out before
            >we'd decided who "won" the game and say, "Okay, kids, playtime's
            >over. Time to put the weapons of mass destruction away; they'll still
            >be there tomorrow." Actually, I never got involved in the ball
            >games; it was too humiliating to be so near the last chosen for teams
            >every time. I was much more into playing "spaceship" on the monkey
            >bars.
            > I agree with you, Helen. In case it's not obvious, I'm from the
            >U.S. I am VERY aware that I live in a nation that behaves like a
            >playground bully. On the other hand, I remember a conversation I had
            >with a german family once; they told me that europe expects america
            >to serve as the "cops" of the world - any non-U.S. nationals want to
            >weigh in on that?

            <snip the personal stuff>

            Psychosocially immature? Perhaps, but then I'd have to join you in
            that label as would most of the people I respect. *shrug*

            If you know one thing *well* you should be able to extrapolate most
            other things from it. The world is lots of the same patterns which
            continually repeat in bigger and smaller scales, like the fractals
            that have caused so much interest (and scientific advance) in recent
            years...

            /<sneaky bringing back on topic bit>

            Which is part of why I like Julian Mays work so much. The world into
            which she places the characters of the Milieu is today moved forward
            in technology. Decamole - you just *know* that as soon as we develop a
            technology that can do this, it will be done. Coke - chillenders --
            they will probably even be called that!

            I haven't done the math but it might be interesting to go back over
            the series and see what pieces of technology she placed into this
            world have actually come into existence since the work was penned.

            The violence of the school-yard is nicely echoed when the Remillard
            family get together and the one with the biggest meta-quotient ends up
            making the others fall in line with how they want to play things.

            Our current world places intelligence in that place but the dynamic
            remains the same. The strongest little boy gets to set the tone of
            play. The prettiest little girl gets to set the tone. The cleverest
            (and most socially adroit) men set the tone. The cleverest (and most
            socially adroit) woment set the tone.

            Whatever measure is given precedence, the person with the mostest
            wins. *shrug*

            In Mays Milieu world the measure is Meta-quotient. In Mays Rampart
            world the measure is closeness to the top of a corporate structure.
            Any other considerations can merely be used as currency to move up.

            regards,
            Ian
          • g.norfolk
            I think you hit the nail on the head for me too Ian concerning JM s work. I admire the way JM integrated her own fictional world of Intervention into the
            Message 5 of 16 , Dec 21, 2002
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              I think you hit the nail on the head for me too Ian concerning JM's work.
               
              I admire the way JM integrated her own fictional world of Intervention into the 1980's and beyond, extrapolating future world political and technological developments in a highly believable manner (terrorist nuclear attack on Tel Aviv, the bombing of Alma Ata springing to mind as totally believable events the like of which COULD STILL happen given the volatile state of affairs in the world).
               
              And the Remillards as bullies, oh yes, with a few exceptions like Luc, Jon and Marie. Even the 'sainted' Dennis isn't above a hefty bit of coersion of pregnant women among others regarding the family Good Friday get togethers with Vic. I admire Rogi for giving the family the metaphorical finger in saying leave me alone, I have the right to be what I choose not what you want me to be.
               
              Unfortunately it is in human nature to bully, manipulate for selfish ends, be violent and lash out.JM has a very astute insight into human nature in the individual. I'm not so sure that as a gestalt body humanity would react as she predicted confronted with rebellion. After the destruction of first Molakar then Okanegon humanity, baring a few misfits seems to have united solidly behind Jon and Diamond Mask in rejection of the rebels violence. In reality would this happen? I'm not so sure.
               
              The beauty of her work for me is that it allows the examination of current crises and problems dressed up as fiction. As in real life there are no easy awnsers.
               
              Regards Helen
               
               


              /<sneaky bringing back on topic bit>

              Which is part of why I like Julian Mays work so much. The world into
              which she places the characters of the Milieu is today moved forward
              in technology. Decamole - you just *know* that as soon as we develop a
              technology that can do this, it will be done. Coke - chillenders --
              they will probably even be called that!

              I haven't done the math but it might be interesting to  go back over
              the series and see what pieces of technology she placed into this
              world have actually come into existence since the work was penned.

              The violence of the school-yard is nicely echoed when the Remillard
              family get together and the one with the biggest meta-quotient ends up
              making the others fall in line with how they want to play things.

              Our current world places intelligence in that place but the dynamic
              remains the same. The strongest little boy gets to set the tone of
              play. The prettiest little girl gets to set the tone. The cleverest
              (and most socially adroit) men set the tone.  The cleverest (and most
              socially adroit) woment set the tone.

              Whatever measure is given precedence, the person with the mostest
              wins. *shrug*

              In Mays Milieu world the measure is Meta-quotient. In Mays Rampart
              world the measure is closeness to the top of a corporate structure.
              Any other considerations can merely be used as currency to move up.

              regards,
              Ian

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            • g.norfolk
              I use playground metaphors a lot when I think about foreign policy . Perhaps it s psychosocially immature to assume we keep smashing against different
              Message 6 of 16 , Dec 21, 2002
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                I use playground metaphors a lot when I think about "foreign
                policy". Perhaps it's psychosocially immature to assume we keep
                smashing against different versions of the same "traumas," or that a
                nation comprised of individuals can be regarded as a unified persona.
                I'm not sure the metaphor's really useful, I just like it.  I know it
                breaks down.  The playground monitor would always come out before
                we'd decided who "won" the game and say, "Okay, kids, playtime's
                over. Time to put the weapons of mass destruction away; they'll still
                be there tomorrow."  Actually, I never got involved in the ball
                games; it was too humiliating to be so near the last chosen for teams
                every time.  I was much more into playing "spaceship" on the monkey
                bars.
                 
                Me too. I was never much for competetive sports prefering the joys of bicycle time-trialing, swimming, hiking and rock climbing where I was seeing how I could do for myself rather than against other people. And alot of the time I read or wanderered about the countryside on my own. Maybe I'm lucky because I never cared about fitting in with the 'in' crowd, I hung out with the swots, geeks and nerds and other outsiders... they were a hellava lot more interesting.

                     I agree with you, Helen.  In case it's not obvious, I'm from the
                U.S.  I am VERY aware that I live in a nation that behaves like a
                playground bully.  On the other hand, I remember a conversation I had
                with a german family once; they told me that europe expects america
                to serve as the "cops" of the world - any non-U.S. nationals want to
                weigh in on that?
                 
                By 'big' countries' I dont mean just US. Britain doesnt exactly have a good human right reputation If you look at our history. We certainly enjoyed telling the a large part of the world what to do for a prolonged period. Even today I sometimes think we have an inflated sense of our importance within the grand scale of things. As I have said in past postings I lived for a number of years in the US, for me a highly exciting and exhilarating time. It's a wonderful experience to live in a culture different from one's own. To view all Americans as geographically and politically ignorant is as bigoted as stating all Brits are lager swilling tabloid reading racist louts. As for the cops-of-the-world attitude, that may have had some truth in the past ie. Cold War days. And Germans living so close to the east-west divide might have a different perspective on matters to a brit. Recently I have heard a number of people express unease about Britains lapdog attitude toward US. (Could part of this just be jealousy cos we're not 'top dog' anymore?). It's not perceived as policing but more as dictating/forcing and alot of Brits express hostility towards Bush and his administration.
                     Ian, I've come from a pretty ugly place in my life, and I'd
                seriously considered suicide; I still think of it as an option from
                time to time - "I ain't outta the woods yet."  The Buddhists say that
                all life is suffering, and that it comes from attatchment.  I'm still
                attatched to my life, and I still suffer.  I guess I prefer the drawn
                out misery every day I'm alive...
                 
                 
                "With all its shams, drugery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world"...Max Ehrmann
                 
                ...despite all the misery life Is good and I'm glad I'm here. Take care of yourself
                 
                Regards,
                Helen
                 
              • Maurice Thomas
                My, but there has been a lot of material reaching my in-box recently concerning the forthcoming war against terror . It goes without saying that the most
                Message 7 of 16 , Dec 21, 2002
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                  My, but there has been a lot of material reaching my in-box recently concerning the forthcoming "war against terror".
                   
                  It goes without saying that the most intelligent posts have been from the JM fan-group. Helen mentions hanging out with "swots, geeks and nerds" - I'm not sure if I was a geek or a nerd - I dressed really unpopularly, for certain, by wearing glasses. In the hierarchy, I was never top dweebie, since I can't do maths to this day. I think I affronted the pecking order of swots to a degree since I have never actually revised for a specific exam, but I made up for that by being beaten up by "bigger boys" at least once a term. I evaded major beatings by joining the rugby team and later the drama club - these seemed to be the through routes for nerds with strong skills for, in the first case, simply getting in the way of fast moving thin boys and watching them fly up in the air; and in the second, a profound desire to mimic bigger boys in roles that required me to portray them serving burgers or rotating tyres. All very PC. These days, of course, I thoroughly encourage young nephews to become nerds - but my young godson, bless him, can see no virtue in my 26 week a year working schedule, and instead wants to keep goal for England.  I say good luck to him, but perhaps a couple of A levels in between won't hurt.
                   
                  As for the issues raised by the Iraq ish, here goes the reasoned argument. (nb I use NBC to denote the so-called "weapons of mass destruction" that Dubya is burbling about - Nuclear, Biological and Chemical - since, let's face it, a big pile of C4/Semtex is a weapon of mass destruction, yet our governments still seem happy for the Czechs to manufacture that superbly safe explosive as much as they wish). Hah !
                   
                  Let's look at the Issues
                  Point A
                  Iraq may well have, or soon acquire, NBC weapons.
                  Countries which already have NBC weapons are :
                      USA,     UK,     China,     France,     Israel,     North Korea,     India,     Pakistan,     Russia,     Ukraine
                  There is therefore no logical reason to declare war against Iraq unless we wish to also invade the other countries on the list. Iraq MIGHT use them. So MIGHT China. Specious.
                   
                  Point B
                  Iraq is being run by a bad man.
                  Countries which are being run by bad men include:
                      Zimbabwe,     Rwanda,     China,     North Korea,     Israel,     Pakistan,     Saudi Arabia,     Yemen,     Russia
                      (I exclude the USA and UK from this list only because they are being run by twits, not Bad Men).
                  There is therefore no logical reason to declare war against Iraq unless we also wish to invade the other countries on the list
                   
                  Point C
                  Fundamentalist Islam pisses George W Bush off
                  Surely only democratically elected officials are entitled to dictate the foreign policy of a nation ?  This is not a casus bellum.
                  Also, I am sure it states in the US constitution that "only men capable of pronouncing correctly the words Nuclear, Aluminium, and Supposedly are entitled to run for the office of President; further, that the President must never, in the course of speeches, make up words - like interestification, or contribulation. Infractions such as these are punishable by lethal injection."  It would also be desirable for world leaders to refrain from using the word "Crusade" when dealing with Moslems - which is like putting on a toothbrush moustache, shouting "sieg heil" and doing a goose-step in front of Schroeder.
                   
                  Point D
                  Britain will help the USA in assembling a force.
                  If "help" means "swell by 10%" in the same way that decimate means "reduce by a tenth", then possibly the UK could nearly come within 1% of "helping" in the Iraq situation, though it might be stretching the word nearly to the extent of its meaning. After delivery of the latest batch of broken Apache helicopters was taken by Aldershot and instantly grounded due to missing parts, rust, and generally being crap; along with the fact that our entire "fleet" of four nuclear submarines is in dry dock at Rosyth for health and safety reasons; the UK is in a position to provide the US with at least two frigates and a battallion or so of Gurkhas, in addition to an aircraft carrier that used to be a pedallo in Regent's Park. I am sure this will swell the coalition ranks immensely.
                   
                  Point D supplementary
                  I am certain, as they use the word "coalition", that the governments of the USA and UK are both aware of the irony of the word, since they operate "first past the post" voting systems in which coalitions are more or less impossible, and bipartite oligarchies retain power at the expense of the true interests of their electorates. Which do not want war.
                   
                  Point E
                  Morally, the west is more right than everyone else
                  No, the west has more toys than everyone else. The GDP of the USA and UK exceeds that of Asia, Africa and South America combined. Is there really any surprise that the peoples of the middle east and of africa are getting upset?  Only a credulous fool would expect an African doctor to discover that his counterpart in the USA id paid a hundred times as much, for treating a fifth of the patients, and not get jealous. The west's morality is based on the fact that we will never be called to account. Much as I deplore Bin Laden's methods, he did in fact call the west to account.
                   
                  Point F
                  Charity Begins at Home
                  I think Margaret Thatcher said this. If she didn't, some other bottom-feeding arsewit did. Charity begins with the poorest. If the west seriously wants the terrorism to stop, then all we have to do is stop treating the rest of the world like pieces of crap. It IS that simple. If corporations like Coke and MacDonalds and Twinings can be forced to pay a fair amount for their raw materials, then the Brazilians will stop chopping down trees to grow cheap cows; the Colombians might consider cocoa more worthwhile than cocaine to produce, and the Indians might be able to stop having so many babies. If we all realise that we are incredibly privileged to have what we have, and do something nice for a change, instead of spending money on, say, a new kitchen when we already have a kitchen, then I can't honestly see what terrorists would have to bitch about. If you bombard any country with aid, it softens up a lot quicker than it ever will from being carpet bombed.
                   
                  The trick is to target the aid, and bypass local corruption. That's all.
                   
                  Merry christmas, and a pacifist new year
                   
                  Moz
                   
                  ps  Apropos the Milieu, I think the original rebel point of view is the one I had most sympathy with. The rebellion as corrupted by Marc was a variant form of eugenics like the milieu thought police concilium (mental man, as opposed to reproductive statutes - both evil). As for Teilhardian unity - somewhat difficult for an atheist to grasp really, and if it means submersion of self then it means hive-mind to me. Nein Danke. I'm with Rogi.
                   
                   
                   
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: g.norfolk [mailto:g.norfolk@...]
                  Sent: 22 December 2002 01:34
                  To: Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Julian-May-discuss] Re: Equal Rights

                   
                  I use playground metaphors a lot when I think about "foreign
                  policy". Perhaps it's psychosocially immature to assume we keep
                  smashing against different versions of the same "traumas," or that a
                  nation comprised of individuals can be regarded as a unified persona.
                  I'm not sure the metaphor's really useful, I just like it.  I know it
                  breaks down.  The playground monitor would always come out before
                  we'd decided who "won" the game and say, "Okay, kids, playtime's
                  over. Time to put the weapons of mass destruction away; they'll still
                  be there tomorrow."  Actually, I never got involved in the ball
                  games; it was too humiliating to be so near the last chosen for teams
                  every time.  I was much more into playing "spaceship" on the monkey
                  bars.
                   
                  Me too. I was never much for competetive sports prefering the joys of bicycle time-trialing, swimming, hiking and rock climbing where I was seeing how I could do for myself rather than against other people. And alot of the time I read or wanderered about the countryside on my own. Maybe I'm lucky because I never cared about fitting in with the 'in' crowd, I hung out with the swots, geeks and nerds and other outsiders... they were a hellava lot more interesting.

                       I agree with you, Helen.  In case it's not obvious, I'm from the
                  U.S.  I am VERY aware that I live in a nation that behaves like a
                  playground bully.  On the other hand, I remember a conversation I had
                  with a german family once; they told me that europe expects america
                  to serve as the "cops" of the world - any non-U.S. nationals want to
                  weigh in on that?
                   
                  By 'big' countries' I dont mean just US. Britain doesnt exactly have a good human right reputation If you look at our history. We certainly enjoyed telling the a large part of the world what to do for a prolonged period. Even today I sometimes think we have an inflated sense of our importance within the grand scale of things. As I have said in past postings I lived for a number of years in the US, for me a highly exciting and exhilarating time. It's a wonderful experience to live in a culture different from one's own. To view all Americans as geographically and politically ignorant is as bigoted as stating all Brits are lager swilling tabloid reading racist louts. As for the cops-of-the-world attitude, that may have had some truth in the past ie. Cold War days. And Germans living so close to the east-west divide might have a different perspective on matters to a brit. Recently I have heard a number of people express unease about Britains lapdog attitude toward US. (Could part of this just be jealousy cos we're not 'top dog' anymore?). It's not perceived as policing but more as dictating/forcing and alot of Brits express hostility towards Bush and his administration.
                       Ian, I've come from a pretty ugly place in my life, and I'd
                  seriously considered suicide; I still think of it as an option from
                  time to time - "I ain't outta the woods yet."  The Buddhists say that
                  all life is suffering, and that it comes from attatchment.  I'm still
                  attatched to my life, and I still suffer.  I guess I prefer the drawn
                  out misery every day I'm alive...
                   
                   
                  "With all its shams, drugery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world"...Max Ehrmann
                   
                  ...despite all the misery life Is good and I'm glad I'm here. Take care of yourself
                   
                  Regards,
                  Helen
                   

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                • Maurice Thomas
                  Hi, I have no idea at all why I haven t put these up before now. In April 2000 I was lucky enough to visit New Hampshire, and I got to go to Dartmouth and
                  Message 8 of 16 , Dec 22, 2002
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                    Hi,
                     
                    I have no idea at all why I haven't put these up before now. In April 2000 I was lucky enough to visit New Hampshire, and I got to go to Dartmouth and Mount Washington. The best bit was that the night I stayed at Mt Washington, it was just me and my two friends (and the staff) at the Bretton Inn, since the hotel proper wasn't going to be open for another week. Bliss.
                     
                    My memory was jogged by watching "World according to Garp" last night, which uses a lot of Dartmouth exteriors, and so I've done this page :
                     
                     
                    Happy Christmas
                     
                    Moz
                  • Nicolette Lewer <nicolel@iconz.co.nz>
                    Hi there, Thanks for that link - there were quite a few good pictures to look at (especially of the bookstore ). As for the recent posts about the War on
                    Message 9 of 16 , Dec 23, 2002
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                      Hi there,

                      Thanks for that link - there were quite a few good pictures to look
                      at (especially of the 'bookstore').

                      As for the recent posts about the 'War on Terror', I feel that the US
                      has its eyes on Aghanistan etc because it would like their oil
                      reserves, thanks, and covers this up with flag-waving about 'Axis of
                      Evil' countries (no offense to those from the US on this list!).

                      On a lighter note, an amusing response to the original 'Axis of Evil'
                      statement is this article from Satirewire.com about other countries
                      now wanting to have their own 'Axis' membership (i.e. Bulgaria,
                      Indonesia and Russia establishing the Axis of Not So Much Evil Really
                      As Just Generally Disagreeable)

                      http://www.satirewire.com/news/jan02/axis.shtml

                      Well, I hope everyone has a Merry Christmas (I can't believe it is
                      tomorrow!), and that the New Year brings many favourable job
                      opportunities for those of us who need them...

                      High Thoughts
                      - Nicolette :-)

                      --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, "Maurice Thomas"
                      <mozzer@m...> wrote:
                      > Hi,
                      >
                      > I have no idea at all why I haven't put these up before now. In
                      April 2000 I
                      > was lucky enough to visit New Hampshire, and I got to go to
                      Dartmouth and
                      > Mount Washington. The best bit was that the night I stayed at Mt
                      Washington,
                      > it was just me and my two friends (and the staff) at the Bretton
                      Inn, since
                      > the hotel proper wasn't going to be open for another week. Bliss.
                      >
                      > My memory was jogged by watching "World according to Garp" last
                      night, which
                      > uses a lot of Dartmouth exteriors, and so I've done this page :
                      >
                      > www.sofaboy.com/intervention.htm
                      >
                      > Happy Christmas
                      >
                      > Moz
                    • Ian J Greely
                      Happy Christmas and a prosperous new year to one and all. Perhaps we can try a healing metaconcert for our sick friend GW on the day. do cara Ian
                      Message 10 of 16 , Dec 23, 2002
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                        Happy Christmas and a prosperous new year to one and all.

                        Perhaps we can try a healing metaconcert for our sick friend GW on the
                        day.

                        do cara
                        Ian
                      • Nicolette Lewer
                        Hi folks, I can t believe it s Christmas Eve already - where has the year gone? Certainly this last month has been busy for me, I have felt like the proverbial
                        Message 11 of 16 , Dec 23, 2003
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                          Hi folks,

                          I can't believe it's Christmas Eve already - where has the year gone?
                          Certainly this last month has been busy for me, I have felt like the
                          proverbial headless chicken (or should that be turkey?) running
                          around. Having time off now never looked so good...

                          New Year's Resolution for me - continue the TMCL Group Read(TM) in
                          January. However, if anyone else wants to pitch in with it go ahead;
                          the next chapters to be 'discussed' are chaps 13-16 (I believe).

                          Well, here's hoping that everyone has a Merry Christmas and a Happy
                          New Year.

                          High Thoughts
                          - Nicolette :-)
                        • Mike Vallender
                          Merry insert religious holiday preference here
                          Message 12 of 16 , Dec 23, 2003
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                            Merry >>insert religious holiday preference here <<

                            I hope everyone has a great time, over the festive period.

                            Cheers

                            Mike

                            -----Original Message from Nicolette Lewer <nicolel@...>-----

                            Hi folks,

                            I can't believe it's Christmas Eve already - where has the year gone?
                            Certainly this last month has been busy for me, I have felt like the
                            proverbial headless chicken (or should that be turkey?) running
                            around. Having time off now never looked so good...

                            New Year's Resolution for me - continue the TMCL Group Read(TM) in
                            January. However, if anyone else wants to pitch in with it go ahead;
                            the next chapters to be 'discussed' are chaps 13-16 (I believe).

                            Well, here's hoping that everyone has a Merry Christmas and a Happy
                            New Year.

                            High Thoughts
                            - Nicolette :-)


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                          • PD Whitener
                            SEASON S GREETINGS Please accept with no obligation, express or implied, my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low
                            Message 13 of 16 , Dec 24, 2003
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                              SEASON'S GREETINGS

                              Please accept with no obligation, express or implied, my best wishes
                              for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low
                              stress,non-addictive, gender neutral celebration of the winter
                              solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of
                              the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your
                              choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasions and/or
                              traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or
                              secular traditions at all. I also wish you a fiscally successful,
                              personally fulfilling, and medically uncomplicated recognition of the
                              onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2004, but not without
                              due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose
                              contributions to society have helped make America great (not to imply
                              that America is necessarily greater than any other country or is the
                              only "America" in the western hemisphere), and without regard to the
                              race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith, or sexual
                              preference of the wishee.

                              By accepting this greeting, you are accepting these terms: This
                              greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal at any time. It is
                              freely transferable with no alteration to the original greeting. It
                              implies no promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the
                              wishes for her/himself or others, is void where prohibited by law,
                              and is revocable at the sole discretion of the wisher.

                              This wish is warranted to perform as expected within the usual
                              application of good tidings for a period of one year, or until the
                              issuance of a subsequent holiday greeting, whichever comes first, and
                              warranty is limited to replacement of this wish or issuance of a new
                              wish at the sole discretion of the wisher.

                              And to those of you not easily offended, MERRY CHRISTMAS & HAPPY NEW
                              YEAR!!! … BOXING DAY … YULE … WINTER SOLSTICE …
                              HANNUKAH … KWANZAA ……

                              Have a happy,
                              alix


                              --- In Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com, Mike Vallender <mike@v...>
                              wrote:
                              > Merry >>insert religious holiday preference here <<
                              >
                              > I hope everyone has a great time, over the festive period.
                              >
                              > Cheers
                              >
                              > Mike
                              >
                              > -----Original Message from Nicolette Lewer <nicolel@i...>-----
                              >
                              > Hi folks,
                              >
                              > I can't believe it's Christmas Eve already - where has the year
                              gone?
                              > Certainly this last month has been busy for me, I have felt like
                              the
                              > proverbial headless chicken (or should that be turkey?) running
                              > around. Having time off now never looked so good...
                              >
                              > New Year's Resolution for me - continue the TMCL Group Read(TM) in
                              > January. However, if anyone else wants to pitch in with it go
                              ahead;
                              > the next chapters to be 'discussed' are chaps 13-16 (I believe).
                              >
                              > Well, here's hoping that everyone has a Merry Christmas and a Happy
                              > New Year.
                              >
                              > High Thoughts
                              > - Nicolette :-)
                              >
                              >
                              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > Julian-May-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
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                            • ginnilee p berger
                              And don t forget the Marcels in your life. Mine will take the entire ham, thank you very much. Virtual Bailey s-Kahlua fudge to everyone! Ginnilee Lady
                              Message 14 of 16 , Dec 24, 2003
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                                And don't forget the Marcels in your life. Mine will take the entire ham, thank you very much. Virtual Bailey's-Kahlua fudge to everyone!

                                Ginnilee
                                Lady Lavender of Teal
                                 
                                On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 20:30:10 -0800 (PST) Mike Vallender <mike@...> writes:
                                Merry >>insert religious holiday preference here <<
                                 
                                I hope everyone has a great time, over the festive period.
                                 
                                Cheers
                                 
                                Mike 
                                 
                                -----Original Message from Nicolette Lewer <nicolel@...>-----
                                 
                                Hi folks,

                                I can't believe it's Christmas Eve already - where has the year gone?
                                Certainly this last month has been busy for me, I have felt like the
                                proverbial headless chicken (or should that be turkey?) running
                                around. Having time off now never looked so good...

                                New Year's Resolution for me - continue the TMCL Group Read(TM) in
                                January. However, if anyone else wants to pitch in with it go ahead;
                                the next chapters to be 'discussed' are chaps 13-16 (I believe).

                                Well, here's hoping that everyone has a Merry Christmas and a Happy
                                New Year.

                                High Thoughts
                                - Nicolette :-)


                              • AbyssAngyl@aol.com
                                Well, its finally christmas eve on the pacific coast, and you Aussies ought to be getting up and seein what the jolly fat man brought youse (Wife gave
                                Message 15 of 16 , Dec 24, 2003
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                                  Well, its finally christmas eve on the pacific coast, and you Aussies ought to be getting up and seein what the jolly fat man brought youse <grin> (Wife gave me a tinkertoy last year, so she gets a light-bright this year!) I send the usual wishes of goodwill to all and malice to none (egg-sucking-dog liberals possibly excepted... aw hell, even them too!) <dedicates the next round of 'Osama got run over by a reindeer' to all liberals everywhere...>
                                   
                                   
                                  MerryFrankenmas
                                   
                                   
                                  <been listening to too many twisted Bob Rivers Christmas tunes... and some even worse ones> ie.: :Geeeet a job, you bum-bum-bum-bummmmm, mmmmoney don't grow on trees you bum-bum-bum-bum, bum-bum-bum-bum, bum-bum-bum-bummmmm..." heh heh heh!
                                • Imhilien
                                  Hi folks, Well, it s Christmas time again... I wish you all a Merry Christmas/New Year and happy holidays too. ^_^ High Thoughts, Nicolette ^_^ Mod Mom #2
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Dec 23, 2007
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                                    Hi folks,

                                    Well, it's Christmas time again... I wish you all a Merry Christmas/New
                                    Year and happy holidays too. ^_^

                                    High Thoughts,


                                    Nicolette ^_^
                                    Mod Mom #2 (currently wondering where the year went)
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