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  • Senda of Mistletoe
    Excuse me if I misswrite something, but that is because I am not very fluent in english writing. I am a Spanish girl that loves the Exile/Milieu series. I read
    Message 1 of 21 , Sep 28, 2000
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      Excuse me if I misswrite something, but that is because I am
      not very fluent in english writing.

      I am a Spanish girl that loves the Exile/Milieu series.
      I read them some years ago. It was difficult to get the
      last books of the series because they were not pubished
      in Spain.

      I have been reading the old messages of this group (by now
      I'm in the 50th) and I 'm very gratefully surprised about
      the interesting views abuot Marc/AU, Jack, ...

      My favourite characters are Denis, Rogi and Aiken. Marc
      is something like a black knight, powerful, with certain
      sense of honor and fully 'atoned' with his ideals (wich
      change through the series)

      I always have a intuition about Felice/Cull. ¿Do you
      think that they could have reach the mind of Denis to
      create Fury? I don't think that Fury developed all
      by itself. Maybe there was some embryo hidden of a
      past that in conjunction with Denis powerful mind
      create Fury.

      For a metapsy power I think I prefer Creativity, it seems
      to me the most 'maleable'. Coercivity is great but it is
      too much responsability to wield with the posibility
      of changing other´s mind and don't to do it.

      Yours:

      Senda
    • clarissafarrington@bigpond.com
      Hello to you all. This is my first post, and indeed first membership of a group such as this! I have read and re read Julian s works so many times that with
      Message 2 of 21 , Jun 12, 2001
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        Hello to you all.

        This is my first post, and indeed first membership of a group such as
        this!

        I have read and re read Julian's works so many times that with some
        of the Exiles I am onto my third copy!! I actuall have Diamond Mask
        and Magnificat in hardback because I could not wait for the
        paperbacks.

        Anyway, I look forward to discussions with you all. Please forgive if
        I rehash ground you may have discussed - but I have yet to read thru
        all your postings.

        Cheers

        Clarissa
      • bob
        Greeting Clarissa, The group at the moment is a little quiet, I think people must be off on holidays or hanging around bookshops demanding details of JM s next
        Message 3 of 21 , Jun 13, 2001
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          Greeting Clarissa,
           
          The group at the moment is a little quiet, I think people must be off on holidays or hanging around bookshops demanding details of JM's next trilogy. There are a fair amount of lurkers, who are content to just read rather than get chatty, but that's the nature of the beast.
           
          My advice.., jump in and start talking, avoid some of the more troublesome howlers and feel free to step on toes by accident. The only expert on Julian May is Julian May and you cetainly won't upset anyone by getting excited and involved in her works.
           
          High Thoughts and welcome to the group
           
          Bob
           
            
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 7:28 AM
          Subject: [Julian-May-discuss] Hello

          Hello to you all.

          This is my first post, and indeed first membership of a group such as
          this!

          I have read and re read Julian's works so many times that with some
          of the Exiles I am onto my third copy!! I actuall have Diamond Mask
          and Magnificat in hardback because I could not wait for the
          paperbacks.

          Anyway, I look forward to discussions with you all. Please forgive if
          I rehash ground you may have discussed - but I have yet to read thru
          all your postings.

          Cheers

          Clarissa



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          Julian-May-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com



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        • Leticia Anderson
          ... Welcome to the list Clarissa! You are our honorary 55th member! I noted when we ticked over to 50 last week and was going to send a silver jubilee message
          Message 4 of 21 , Jun 14, 2001
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            --- In Julian-May-discuss@y..., clarissafarrington@b... wrote:
            > Hello to you all. This is my first post, and indeed first membership
            >of a group such as this!

            Welcome to the list Clarissa! You are our honorary 55th member! I
            noted when we ticked over to 50 last week and was going to send a
            silver jubilee message but time, alas, got away on me!
            You'll find we are a very easygoing list, where you are welcome to
            raise whatever issues you choose, and you can usually find some
            thought-provoking responses.
            The list picked up a lot last month before slumbering the last few
            weeks away but in some ways I appreciate the cycles this list runs in
            - some lists I am on (e.g. the SKP one) are hard to keep up with, with
            hundreds of messages monthly.
            I must apologise for being a very neglectful moderator, I'm back on
            deck now and hopefully things start ticking along again.
            I see Bob's site is steadily growing, I'm really enjoying the new pics
            :-) and I have also seen that a few more people have mosied on over to
            the polls section and placed a vote (hello to newbie Kenneth, I saw
            your votes had just come up!).

            > I have read and re read Julian's works so many times that with some
            > of the Exiles I am onto my third copy!! I actuall have Diamond Mask
            > and Magnificat in hardback because I could not wait for the
            > paperbacks.

            <glances up curiously> Hardcover? Which edition? I really like the
            strange one of Diamond Mask with the eyes blanked out by the title
            (the only DM I have ever seen). Even though everyone else thinks it is
            ugly!!
            I sympathise with your copies of exiles, mine are very trashed as
            well, I am on second copies of those too! Though I couldn't bear to
            throw away the old ones, even though they have pages fluttering
            everywhere!

            > Anyway, I look forward to discussions with you all. Please forgive
            if I rehash ground you may have discussed - but I have yet to read
            thru all your postings.
            > Clarissa

            I actually think it would be great to rehash - a new mind always
            brings something new to the discussion. Plus, every time I reread (I
            have just finished a JtB reread) I find new stuff I want to bring up
            and also gain new insight on old convictions.....
          • nicolel@iconz.co.nz
            ... Welcome Clarissa, I hope you have fun being with our group, feel free to bring up any subject you like. I ve managed to keep the first copies I bought of
            Message 5 of 21 , Jun 14, 2001
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              --- In Julian-May-discuss@y..., clarissafarrington@b... wrote:

              Welcome Clarissa,

              I hope you have fun being with our group, feel free to bring up any
              subject you like.

              I've managed to keep the first copies I bought of JM's books, but I
              have to confess that my copy of JtB is getting a bit dog eared..

              Take care,

              High Thoughts

              - Nicolette :-)

              > Hello to you all.
              >
              > This is my first post, and indeed first membership of a group such
              as this!
              >
              > I have read and re read Julian's works so many times that with some
              > of the Exiles I am onto my third copy!! I actuall have Diamond Mask
              > and Magnificat in hardback because I could not wait for the
              > paperbacks.
              >
              > Anyway, I look forward to discussions with you all. Please forgive
              if I rehash ground you may have discussed - but I have yet to read
              thru all your postings.
              >
              > Cheers
              >
              > Clarissa
            • Nicolette Lewer
              Hiya Leda, I guess this means we can call off the search party now . It s amazing how much tidying up there is to do once you leave a job - my job was
              Message 6 of 21 , Jan 29, 2002
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                Hiya Leda,

                I guess this means we can call off the search party now <g>. It's amazing
                how much 'tidying up' there is to do once you leave a job - my job was made
                redundant before Xmas with about 9 others (basically, evil CEO got out the
                axe) and it took me quite a few days to make sure my workmates would know
                what to do with my work. What are your courses at Uni?

                High Thoughts
                - Nicolette :-)


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Leticia Anderson" <leticia@...>
                To: <Julian-May-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 7:06 PM
                Subject: [Julian-May-discuss] Hello


                > Evil absent list-mum pops in her head to say:
                > 'I am here and I am trying to read posts but can't reply just yet'.
                > The reason is I am going back to uni next month and am frantically trying
                to
                > prepare for leaving work and train other people.......I'll be back soon I
                > promise!
                >
                > Leda xxx
                >
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > Julian-May-discuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • bob
                Ooh, ooh I remember you, didn t you used to hang out around here a while back? *grin* Welcome back list-mum, good luck with the Uni thing. ... From: Leticia
                Message 7 of 21 , Jan 29, 2002
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                  Ooh, ooh I remember you, didn't you used to hang out around here a while back? *grin*
                   
                  Welcome back list-mum, good luck with the Uni thing.
                   
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 6:06 AM
                  Subject: [Julian-May-discuss] Hello

                  Evil absent list-mum pops in her head to say:
                  'I am here and I am trying to read posts but can't reply just yet'.
                  The reason is I am going back to uni next month and am frantically trying to
                  prepare for leaving work and train other people.......I'll be back soon I
                  promise!

                  Leda xxx



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                • jaffi2000
                  Hi, I found this list through dejanews search, and joined since I m a big fan of Julian May s exile/milieu books. For some reason I m not very successful in
                  Message 8 of 21 , Apr 10, 2002
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                    Hi,

                    I found this list through dejanews search, and joined since I'm a big
                    fan of Julian May's exile/milieu books. For some reason I'm not very
                    successful in converting people into reading them tho :) .. Has
                    anyone come up with a good 2-3 sentence description of her work? For
                    some reason it seems many people are unaware of these masterpieces.

                    I didn't like the Rampart books as much (not as complex) or the
                    Trillium book ... What is the new book going to be about? I have a
                    feeling there won't be any more milieu books?

                    And one more question that has puzzled me: Are the Lylmik evolved
                    from the same species as Tanu/Firvulag/Brede/Ships or are they
                    something else? I keep trying to guess what happens to Mark and
                    Elizabeth after the 'jump', I wish there was a book about what
                    happens afterwards :)

                    Maybe it's time to re-read again.

                    //Janne
                  • Leticia Anderson
                    Hey Janne, Welcome to the group (and welcome to the other new people who have not yet said Hello!). Feel free to jump in and start new threads etc or go
                    Message 9 of 21 , Apr 10, 2002
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                      Hey Janne,

                      Welcome to the group (and welcome to the other new people who have not yet
                      said Hello!).
                      Feel free to jump in and start new threads etc or go through the archives -
                      there are book covers, pics, tonnes of links, a character database.....
                      The list has been a little quiet until recently, when we have been having a
                      little bit of a discussion about the upcoming JM release of Boreal Moons #1,
                      and also a few other little oddities like The Mars Attacks! in the Milieu
                      series.
                      A 2-3 sentence description! Sounds like a challenge. Maybe we should all
                      have a go at it. (after I finish my late history essay!!).

                      The Lylmik were apparently already in existence when Liz decided it was the
                      end and Marc jumped back to our galaxy. However, there are a few little
                      suspect clues that perhaps they might not have been discorporate at the
                      time! This provides fuel for those who think Marc hadn't completely atoned
                      when he became Atoning Unifex....because perhaps the Lylmik were his last
                      shot at the Bodiless Bigtime. What do you think?

                      high thoughts
                      Leda (List Moderator)
                    • Claire
                      ... the ... Wow! I never thought of that. What an interesting concept. I love encountering a new idea even after several re-readings. But didn t Unifex tell
                      Message 10 of 21 , Apr 10, 2002
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                        Leda wrote:

                        > The Lylmik were apparently already in existence when Liz decided it was
                        the
                        > end and Marc jumped back to our galaxy. However, there are a few little
                        > suspect clues that perhaps they might not have been discorporate at the
                        > time! This provides fuel for those who think Marc hadn't completely atoned
                        > when he became Atoning Unifex....because perhaps the Lylmik were his last
                        > shot at the Bodiless Bigtime. What do you think?

                        Wow! I never thought of that. What an interesting concept. I love
                        encountering a new idea even after several re-readings. But didn't Unifex
                        tell Rogi that he/Marc had found (and fostered) Unity in the Duat Galaxy?
                        Would a Unified mind mess with evolution, and in such an evil way? Since
                        even before his exile, Marc saw the bodiless state as the ultimate in human
                        evolution, perhaps that's just what happened in the evolution of the Lylmik
                        over millions of years.

                        Speaking of the lifespan of that race, I always assumed, because of the
                        references to "fa time" and "ti time", that the life cycle of the race was
                        organized in a manner akin to the musical scale. And since reproduction
                        ceased in "ti time", and the race was moribund, I figured we were reading
                        about them in "do time". What messes up this little vision of mine are the
                        dates at the beginning of many of the chapters, e.g. "La prime....". Does
                        anyone have any thoughts or explanation about this?

                        Claire
                      • Nicolette Lewer
                        Hiya Janne, Welcome to Club Milieu ;-), I hope you will enjoy your time here. ... Hmm...actually I was thinking the other day the best way to sum up the whole
                        Message 11 of 21 , Apr 10, 2002
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                          Hiya Janne,

                          Welcome to Club Milieu ;-), I hope you will enjoy your time here.

                          > A 2-3 sentence description! Sounds like a challenge. Maybe we should all
                          > have a go at it. (after I finish my late history essay!!).

                          Hmm...actually I was thinking the other day the best way to sum up the whole
                          series (tough job!) and eventually settled with that it's a futuristic
                          version of Milton's 'Paradise Lost'. With a lot of plot twists.

                          > The Lylmik were apparently already in existence when Liz decided it was
                          the
                          > end and Marc jumped back to our galaxy. However, there are a few little
                          > suspect clues that perhaps they might not have been discorporate at the
                          > time! This provides fuel for those who think Marc hadn't completely atoned
                          > when he became Atoning Unifex....because perhaps the Lylmik were his last
                          > shot at the Bodiless Bigtime. What do you think?
                          >
                          > high thoughts
                          > Leda (List Moderator)
                          >
                          I'm inclined to think that the Lylmik evolved naturally into a bodiless
                          state - it doesn't necessarily mean they were forced into it by Marc, who
                          had told Rogi that he encouraged races to evolve rather than artificially
                          force them. An oddball theory about the Lylmik that I saw in the older
                          newsgroup archives was that the Lylmik were the children of Liz & Marc who
                          became bodiless, because if you break down the word Lylmik, the first
                          syllable 'Lyl' could apply to Liz and 'Mik' refer to Marc. But as I said
                          before, that's an oddball theory which I doubt was true, because neither of
                          them could have children!

                          High Thoughts
                          - Nicolette :-)
                        • Kate Dungan
                          How about CELTS FROM SPACE!!!! Hi, I found this list through dejanews search, and joined since I m a big fan of Julian May s exile/milieu books. For some
                          Message 12 of 21 , Apr 11, 2002
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                            How about CELTS FROM SPACE!!!!    

                            Hi,

                            I found this list through dejanews search, and joined since I'm a big
                            fan of Julian May's exile/milieu books. For some reason I'm not very
                            successful in converting people into reading them tho :) .. Has
                            anyone come up with a good 2-3 sentence description of her work? For
                            some reason it seems many people are unaware of these masterpieces.
                            I didn't like the Rampart books as much (not as complex) or the
                            Trillium book ... What is the new book going to be about? I have a
                            feeling there won't be any more milieu books?
                            And one more question that has puzzled me: Are the Lylmik evolved
                            from the same species as Tanu/Firvulag/Brede/Ships or are they
                            something else? I keep trying to guess what happens to Mark and
                            Elizabeth after the 'jump', I wish there was a book about what
                            happens afterwards :)
                            Maybe it's time to re-read again.
                            //Janne
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                          • Leticia Anderson
                            ... Nice work! I like that. ... Yes, but it is possible....Obviously at the time that the Lylmik were encountered by Marc they still knew how to Jack-form -
                            Message 13 of 21 , Apr 11, 2002
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                              Nicolette wrote:
                              > a futuristic version of Milton's 'Paradise Lost'. With a lot of plot twists.

                              Nice work! I like that.

                              > I'm inclined to think that the Lylmik evolved naturally into a bodiless
                              > state - it doesn't necessarily mean they were forced into it by Marc, who
                              > had told Rogi that he encouraged races to evolve rather than artificially
                              > force them.

                              Yes, but it is possible....Obviously at the time that the Lylmik were
                              encountered by Marc they still knew how to 'Jack-form' - how else could Marc
                              have finally progressed into that state which he had been dreaming of for so
                              many milennia?


                              > An oddball theory about the Lylmik that I saw in the older
                              > newsgroup archives was that the Lylmik were the children of Liz & Marc who
                              > became bodiless, because if you break down the word Lylmik, the first
                              > syllable 'Lyl' could apply to Liz and 'Mik' refer to Marc.

                              Hmmm, interesting but probably not true. Not that any of these theories
                              actually could be 'true' of course!!

                              > neither of them could have children!

                              Mmm, but Liz's operation was reversible....I don't think she was interested
                              in children though, just in the people she helped.

                              Leda
                            • Leticia Anderson
                              Has anyone read Patricia Keneally s series about Celts in space? It seems very JM influenced but I think it surpasses JM s worlds for being Celts in Space.
                              Message 14 of 21 , Apr 11, 2002
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                                Re: [Julian-May-discuss] Hello Has anyone read Patricia Keneally's series about Celts in space? It seems very JM influenced but I think it surpasses JM's worlds for being Celts in Space. Actually I think that is the name of the series, Celtia. It is about the Tuatha de danaan sailing from Ireland across the Atlantic, they sail into space somehow and colonise new worlds, but their ancetsral enemies folow them. Kind of interesting but hard to read...

                                on 12/4/02 12:44 AM, Kate Dungan at oDubhagain@... wrote:



                                How about CELTS FROM SPACE!!!!     

                                Hi,
                                I found this list through dejanews search, and joined since I'm a big
                                fan of Julian May's exile/milieu books. For some reason I'm not very
                                successful in converting people into reading them tho :) .. Has
                                anyone come up with a good 2-3 sentence description of her work? For
                                some reason it seems many people are unaware of these masterpieces.
                                I didn't like the Rampart books as much (not as complex) or the
                                Trillium book ... What is the new book going to be about? I have a
                                feeling there won't be any more milieu books?
                                And one more question that has puzzled me: Are the Lylmik evolved
                                from the same species as Tanu/Firvulag/Brede/Ships or are they
                                something else? I keep trying to guess what happens to Mark and
                                Elizabeth after the 'jump', I wish there was a book about what
                                happens afterwards :)
                                Maybe it's time to re-read again.
                                //Janne
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                              • clarissafarrington
                                I Love the Keltiad!! I have read all of them except some of the harder to get ones that she wrote later. I will need to order them from Amazon I think. It
                                Message 15 of 21 , Apr 11, 2002
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                                  I Love the Keltiad!! I have read all of them except some of the
                                  harder to get ones that she wrote later. I will need to order them
                                  from Amazon I think.

                                  It depends which series you read first as to how much you like them I
                                  think. The Aeron books are really good - I am not as into the Arthur
                                  ones. For those of you that have not read them - Imagine the entire
                                  Camelot story in space - with a couple of minor deviations and
                                  differences.

                                  I would love to see a movie version - something that would translate
                                  the Firedrake to reality. The Firedrake is the Kelts flagship. It is
                                  an interstellar warship - about 10 miles long shaped like a giant
                                  golden dragon!

                                  You may remember I wanted to name my son Marc - after Rob said no to
                                  that I started on Declan - a very minor character but a great name.
                                  When Rob said no to that I wanted Fergus (see explanation for Declan)
                                  after another no I gave up on book characters.


                                  Cheers

                                  Clarissa




                                  --- In Julian-May-discuss@y..., Leticia Anderson <leticia@r...> wrote:
                                  > Has anyone read Patricia Keneally's series about Celts in space? It
                                  seems
                                  > very JM influenced but I think it surpasses JM's worlds for being
                                  Celts in
                                  > Space. Actually I think that is the name of the series, Celtia. It
                                  is about
                                  > the Tuatha de danaan sailing from Ireland across the Atlantic, they
                                  sail
                                  > into space somehow and colonise new worlds, but their ancetsral
                                  enemies
                                  > folow them. Kind of interesting but hard to read...
                                  >
                                  > on 12/4/02 12:44 AM, Kate Dungan at oDubhagain@h... wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > How about CELTS FROM SPACE!!!!
                                  >
                                  > Hi,
                                  > I found this list through dejanews search, and joined since I'm a
                                  big
                                  > fan of Julian May's exile/milieu books. For some reason I'm not very
                                  > successful in converting people into reading them tho :) .. Has
                                  > anyone come up with a good 2-3 sentence description of her work? For
                                  > some reason it seems many people are unaware of these masterpieces.
                                  > I didn't like the Rampart books as much (not as complex) or the
                                  > Trillium book ... What is the new book going to be about? I have a
                                  > feeling there won't be any more milieu books?
                                  > And one more question that has puzzled me: Are the Lylmik evolved
                                  > from the same species as Tanu/Firvulag/Brede/Ships or are they
                                  > something else? I keep trying to guess what happens to Mark and
                                  > Elizabeth after the 'jump', I wish there was a book about what
                                  > happens afterwards :)
                                  > Maybe it's time to re-read again.
                                  > //Janne
                                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > Julian-May-discuss-unsubscribe@e...
                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. Click Here
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                                  >
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                                • Leticia Anderson
                                  Hi Claire - ... The following is from the Milieu Mailing List FAQ at http://yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au/~wigs/milieu/milieu.faq They noted what you have picked up,
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Apr 12, 2002
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                                    Hi Claire -

                                    Claire wrote:
                                    > Speaking of the lifespan of that race, I always assumed, because of the
                                    > references to "fa time" and "ti time", that the life cycle of the race was
                                    > organized in a manner akin to the musical scale. And since reproduction
                                    > ceased in "ti time", and the race was moribund, I figured we were reading
                                    > about them in "do time". What messes up this little vision of mine are the
                                    > dates at the beginning of many of the chapters, e.g. "La prime....". Does
                                    > anyone have any thoughts or explanation about this?

                                    The following is from the Milieu Mailing List FAQ at
                                    http://yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au/~wigs/milieu/milieu.faq

                                    They noted what you have picked up, and wrote the following:

                                    Section 4.1. Milieu Conventions (Dates, Sectors, etc).

                                    Dates:
                                    The Galactic Dating systems as used the Milieu is based (strangely
                                    enough) on Earth days as a base unit. The format for the Galactic
                                    Date is "<Era> <7 digit number>". Examples from the novels are:
                                    Galactic Earth
                                    ------------------ --------------
                                    La Prime 1-357-627 8 August 1994
                                    La Prime 1-440-644 17 May 2113

                                    La Prime 0-000-000 is about 2725 BC.

                                    One Galactic Year is 1000 Earth days.

                                    There is mention in _JtB_ (page 148) of Ti Time, about 8
                                    galactic revolutions ago. Lylmik repoduction ceased then,
                                    causing the Outreach to begin leading to the Milieu. Further
                                    back is Fa Time. This suggests a musical scale to the notes,
                                    (Do, Re, Mi, Fa, So, La, Ti).

                                    However, this is unclear for as you noticed Claire, Ti time has apparently
                                    already been, yet if we are in La time Ti time should be yet to
                                    come....perhaps the notes circulate in octaves, so that Ti time could come
                                    before Do as well as after La. Which means we are moving into Ti time again
                                    and then back to Do presumably....
                                    The milieu list worked out the current time and it is on the Time webpage
                                    http://www.ecben.net/calendar.shtml

                                    This site is constantly updated and every day you can find out what day it
                                    is in milieu time. Today is:
                                    La Prime 1-360-431

                                    Leda
                                  • Claire
                                    ... Thanks, Leda. I ve seen that link a couple of times, but it hasn t worked for me in the past, so I was glad you pasted the relevant text. (Now the link
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Apr 12, 2002
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                                      Leda wrote:

                                      > The following is from the Milieu Mailing List FAQ at
                                      > http://yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au/~wigs/milieu/milieu.faq

                                      Thanks, Leda. I've seen that link a couple of times, but it hasn't worked
                                      for me in the past, so I was glad you pasted the relevant text. (Now the
                                      link is working, though!)

                                      Claire
                                    • Leticia Anderson
                                      ... Tis but my duty to serve! I actually want to copy the material on that page into a file on the archives for this list in case Monash Uni ever decides to
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Apr 12, 2002
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                                        >> Leda wrote:
                                        >> The following is from the Milieu Mailing List FAQ at
                                        >> http://yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au/~wigs/milieu/milieu.faq
                                        >Claire Replied:
                                        > Thanks, Leda. I've seen that link a couple of times, but it hasn't worked
                                        > for me in the past, so I was glad you pasted the relevant text. (Now the
                                        > link is working, though!)

                                        Tis but my duty to serve! I actually want to copy the material on that page
                                        into a file on the archives for this list in case Monash Uni ever decides to
                                        pull it off the web without alerting anyone! I hope I don't offend any
                                        copyright by doing so....

                                        Leda
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