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Re: [JewishKeidan] Mogel Family

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  • Belinda Kaye
    Dear Gus Thank you so much. Yes Dovra and Yitzhak Mogel were the parents of Max - I have a copy of Dovra or Dora s Death Certificate 1922 stating she was
    Message 1 of 14 , Mar 9, 2007
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      Dear Gus
       
      Thank you so much.  Yes Dovra and Yitzhak Mogel were the parents of Max - I have a copy of Dovra or Dora's Death Certificate 1922 stating she was buried at Mount Carmel Cemetery, have written to them but they have no knowledge of her burial. 
       
      The family came from Lithuania would I be right to assume the family would have originated from Keidan? 
      Thanks for the infomation I will write to Mt Washington to see whether she is buried there. 
       
      Belinda Kaye
      London UK
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Gus Levy
      Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 12:41 AM
      Subject: Re: [JewishKeidan] Mogel Family

      Dear Belinda"
       
      Perhaps this might help you re: Max Mogel - - -
       
      He definitely is buried in the "Chevra Bnei Israel Anshe Keidan" (Congregation
      Sons of Israel the People of Keidan) in Block 57, Mt. Hebron Cemetery,
       
      He died Nov. 23rd, 1942 age 69. His Hebrew name was Mordechai Alter
      ben Yisrael Yitzchak.
       
      His wife Celia Mogel is buried in the adjacent Kovner Verein. She died
      December 22, 1944, at the age of 65. Her Hebrew name was
      Tzipa bat Binvamin Zev Halevi
       
      I have no knowledge of Dvora or Yitzhak Mogel. To the best of my knowledge neither is buried in the "main"  Keidaner burial grounds in Mt. Washington Cemetery, Brooklyn, New York. Is it possible that Yitzhak Mogel is the father of Max?
       
      I hope this helps you.
       
      Gus Levy
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 9:35 AM
      Subject: [JewishKeidan] Mogel Family

      Hi

      Am wondering whether anybody on this group has knowledge of the Mogel
      Family. According to the Jewishgen Website Max Mogel was buried in
      the Keidan Burial Plot Mount Hebron New York. I'm especially
      interested in Dovra nee Aaronfsky and Yitzhak Mogel.

      Many thanks

      Belinda Kaye
      London

    • Ada Green
      ... Chances are that Max MOGEL s mother, Dora ARONOFSKY was originally from Kaunas or Vilijampole. Burials in the Keidaner plot at Mt. Hebron Cemetery are
      Message 2 of 14 , Mar 9, 2007
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        On Thu Mar 8, 2007 6:45 am (PST) belinda.kaye@... wrote:

        > Am wondering whether anybody on this group has knowledge of the Mogel
        > Family. According to the Jewishgen Website Max Mogel was buried in
        > the Keidan Burial Plot Mount Hebron New York. I'm especially
        > interested in Dovra nee Aaronfsky and Yitzhak Mogel.

        Chances are that Max MOGEL's mother, Dora ARONOFSKY was originally from
        Kaunas or Vilijampole. Burials in the Keidaner plot at Mt. Hebron Cemetery
        are apparently not what they appear to be. This is a long and complex
        story that I will relate here. Relate yes, but figure out, no.

        I am the person who cataloged Chevra Bnei Israel Anshe Keidan, Block 57,
        Path 2 at Mt. Hebron Cemetery as well as the immediately adjacent Kovner
        Unterstizungs Verein, Block 57, Path 3. The boundary line between these
        two societies is very clearly delineated and demarcated with posts and from
        a visual standpoint there is no way that anyone could get the burials in
        one society mixed up with the other, as there often can be with other New
        York area burial societies where the boundary may not be so clear.

        However, from the start there has been an inexplicable problem with these
        two plots. Max MOGEL is in the Keidaner plot, but his wife Celia is in the
        adjacent Kovner plot. Abraham CHASEN is in the Keidaner plot, but his
        parents, Vandziogala natives Gersen and Rose CHASEN, are in the Kovner
        plot. Morris and Rachel EPSTEIN are in the Keidaner plot but their sons
        Barney, Herman, Isidor and Samuel are in the Kovner plot. Nettie FINE is
        in the Keidaner plot, but her husband Hyman is in the Kovner plot. Fannie
        GELLER is in the Keidaner plot, but her husband Koppel is in the Kovner
        plot. Aaron KAHN is in the Keidaner plot, but his wife Sarah R. is in the
        Kovner plot. Gussie KATZ is in the Keidaner plot, but her parents Louis
        and Rachel and her sister Fay are in the Kovner plot. Jennie LEVINE is in
        the Keidaner plot, but her husband Isaac is in the Kovner plot. Boris
        LUSKIN is in the Keidaner plot, but his wife Celia is in the Kovner
        plot. Rachel PORTER is in the Keidaner plot, but her parents Jack and
        Sarah are in the Kovner plot. Simon SHIFMAN and his son Samuel are in the
        Keidaner plot, but Simon's wife and Samuel's mother Tillie is in the Kovner
        plot. Jennie SMITH and her son Irving are in the Keidaner plot, but
        Jennie's husband and Irving's father Morris is in the Kovner plot. Samuel
        TELZER is in the Keidaner plot, but his wife Sophie and his brothers
        Abraham and Louis are in the Kovner plot. There may be a few other cases
        like this as well, but I've more than made the point that something strange
        is going on here.

        These two societies are both defunct so there's no way of asking them
        what's the story. Nor does the cemetery have any answers. So in all my
        previous lectures on New York Jewish cemeteries I've been saying that the
        land on which the Keidaner plot sits probably once belonged only to the
        Kovner society, which is by far the larger of the two societies, and that
        the Kovner plot was subsequently subdivided into two separate plots to
        accommodate the Keidaner society.

        When I originally cataloged the Keidaner plot, it had a total of 49
        burials. However, it now has only 27 burials. For the JewishGen Online
        Worldwide Burial Registry (JOWBR), within the past two weeks I have
        transferred 22 burials in the Keidaner plot over to the adjacent Kovner
        plot, including Max MOGEL and all of the other Keidaner burials mentioned
        above (plus a few others). No, the burials certainly have not been
        physically moved or reinterred. The reason is because according to Mt.
        Hebron's Cemetery's new online interment database at
        http://www.mounthebroncemetery.com/search.asp?type=interment, Max MOGEL and
        all of the other people mentioned above are in the Kovner plot. Yes, these
        particular graves physically look like they are in the Keidaner plot, but
        according to the cemetery database they are in the the Kovner plot and the
        cemetery would certainly know better than I because presumably they have
        the deed to the plots.

        The Kovner plot is competely full with no room for more burials, whereas
        there is plenty of room in the Keidaner plot. So one can argue that when
        the Kovner plot got filled up, the society used the adjacent Keidaner plot
        for subsequent Kovner society burials. However, that theory doesn't hold
        water because Rachel PORTER who died in 1931 is buried on the grounds of
        the Keidaner plot, but her father Jack who died close to 40 years later, in
        1970, is buried in the Kovner plot. Plus Max and Celia MOGEL died within
        two years of each other, in 1942 and 1944, respectively, and are buried on
        the grounds of the Keidaner and Kovner plots, respectively. So I don't get
        it, I don't get it, I don't get it. Nor will I try any longer to get
        it. Even though Max MOGEL is physically on the grounds of the Keidaner
        society, if the cemetery database says that he's in the Kovner UV plot with
        his wife Celia, then so it is.

        Thus the point that I want to make is that Max MOGEL was most likely not
        from Keidan. The surname of his mother, ARONOFSKY is found most frequently
        in Kaunas and Vilijampole, although it's found in other Kaunas district
        shtetls as well, including Ariogala. Check the LitvakSIG All Lithuania
        Database. Variant spellings of the same surname are ARANOVSKY, ARENOVSKI,
        and ARINOVSKY, amongst others. The ending "SKI" can also be "SKIJ".

        Max MOGEL's original surname may have been MAGULEVSKY (and spelling
        variants). There were families with this surname from Ariogala and
        Dotnuva. Or his surname may have been MEYGEL, which is a family from
        Cekiske. His wife Celia's maiden name was NAVIASKY (NEVIAZKY, NEVIAZHSKY,
        NEVYAZHSKIJ), which is found primarily in Kaunas, but to a lesser extent in
        Vilijampole and Josvainiai.

        Hopefully this will point you in the right direction to look in the All
        Lithuania Database, but all evidence indicates that neither Max MOGEL nor
        his mother nor his wife were from Keidan and the first place you probably
        should look for the family of his mother and his wife is Kaunas and
        Vilijampole.

        Ada Green
        adagreen@...
      • Gus Levy
        I see where you got an answer from Ada Green, who really knows her Keiden history. She is the one to carry on. Indeed, she mentioned where Dora s family came
        Message 3 of 14 , Mar 9, 2007
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          I see where you got an answer from Ada Green, who really knows her Keiden history. She is the one to carry on. Indeed, she mentioned where Dora's family came from (not Keidan). I took the liberty of contacting Mt. Carmel for you. No Mogel is interred there.
           
          If you wish to contact Washington Cemetery (NOT Mt. Washington, I erred) the address is Washington Cemetery, 5400 Bay Parkway, Brooklyn, NY 11230.
           
          Listen to Ada, she is a champ on this.
           
          Gus.
          ----- Original Message -----
          To:
        • Linda Dubins
          Does anyone know anything about my great grand father Nasaniel Aron Dubinsky? To: JewishKeidan@yahoogroups.comFrom: w2lap@verizon.netDate: Fri, 9 Mar 2007
          Message 4 of 14 , Mar 10, 2007
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            Does anyone know anything about my great grand father Nasaniel Aron Dubinsky?


          • Linda Dubins
            There is also a Keidan section of a cemetery in Queens, NY. To: JewishKeidan@yahoogroups.comFrom: w2lap@verizon.netDate: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 12:33:29 -0500Subject:
            Message 5 of 14 , Mar 10, 2007
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              There is also a Keidan section of a cemetery in Queens, NY.




              To: JewishKeidan@yahoogroups.com
              From: w2lap@...
              Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 12:33:29 -0500
              Subject: Re: [JewishKeidan] Mogel Family

              I see where you got an answer from Ada Green, who really knows her Keiden history. She is the one to carry on. Indeed, she mentioned where Dora's family came from (not Keidan). I took the liberty of contacting Mt. Carmel for you. No Mogel is interred there.
               
              If you wish to contact Washington Cemetery (NOT Mt. Washington, I erred) the address is Washington Cemetery, 5400 Bay Parkway, Brooklyn, NY 11230.
               
              Listen to Ada, she is a champ on this.
               
              Gus.
              ----- Original Message -----
              To:




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            • belinda.kaye
              Dear Ada Thank you so much for such a detailed reply. Obviously living in London I had no idea about the confusion over the different society Plots. However
              Message 6 of 14 , Mar 11, 2007
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                Dear Ada

                Thank you so much for such a detailed reply. Obviously living in
                London I had no idea about the confusion over the different society
                Plots. However if you don't understand what went on at the cemetery
                I'm not even going to try to figure it out from here.

                I will take your advice and who knows I may even find the origins to
                Dvora and Yitzhak - my Great Great Grandparents.

                On a more personal note I wish to take this opportunity to thank you
                for your fantastic work and extensive research. I had no previous
                knowledge of Max Mogel which in turn lead me to Dvora and her other
                children in the USA.

                Once again thank you so much.

                Belinda Kaye
                Researching Mogel Aaronosky Kravitz - Lithuania
              • Belinda Kaye
                Dear Gus Thanks so much for contacting the cemetery. I will now write to Washington Cemetery to see whether she is buried there. I hope to go to New York
                Message 7 of 14 , Mar 11, 2007
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                  Dear Gus
                   
                  Thanks so much for contacting the cemetery.  I will now write to Washington Cemetery to see whether she is buried there.
                   
                  I hope to go to New York later this year and now I know my Great Great Grandmother is buried in the City I hope to be able to locate and visit her.
                   
                  I greatly appreciate your help.
                   
                  Belinda Kaye

                • Belinda Kaye
                  Many thanks - I m from London and not really up on all the different societies but going by the advice given I think my best bet would be to look for Kovner
                  Message 8 of 14 , Mar 11, 2007
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                    Many thanks - I'm from London and not really up on all the different societies but going by the advice given I think my best bet would be to look for Kovner Burial Societies.
                     
                     
                     
                    Belinda Kaye

                    Linda Dubins <lindadubins@...> wrote:
                    There is also a Keidan section of a cemetery in Queens, NY.




                    To: JewishKeidan@ yahoogroups. com
                    From: w2lap@verizon. net
                    Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 12:33:29 -0500
                    Subject: Re: [JewishKeidan] Mogel Family

                    I see where you got an answer from Ada Green, who really knows her Keiden history. She is the one to carry on. Indeed, she mentioned where Dora's family came from (not Keidan). I took the liberty of contacting Mt. Carmel for you. No Mogel is interred there.
                     
                    If you wish to contact Washington Cemetery (NOT Mt. Washington, I erred) the address is Washington Cemetery, 5400 Bay Parkway, Brooklyn, NY 11230.
                     
                    Listen to Ada, she is a champ on this.
                     
                    Gus.
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    To:



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                  • Ada Green
                    Thanks very much, Gus and Belinda, for such nice compliments about my research work on Keidaners buried in US Keidaner burial society plots and glad it was
                    Message 9 of 14 , Mar 11, 2007
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                      Thanks very much, Gus and Belinda, for such nice compliments about my
                      research work on Keidaners buried in US Keidaner burial society plots and
                      glad it was helpful to both of you.

                      To those of you who aren't aware, not only did I catalog the burials in the
                      Keidaner plot at Mt. Hebron Cemetery in Flushing, Queens, NY (which is the
                      smallest of the Keidaner plots), but also the ones in the all the other
                      Keidaner plots known to be in existence (3 at Washington Cemetery in
                      Brooklyn, one at Montefiore Cemetery in St. Albans, Queens, and the Kadaner
                      Unt. Verein at Waldheim Cemetery in Chicago).

                      I have also cataloged the burials in the landsmanshaftn plots in the New
                      York metropolitan area for all towns in the entire Kaunas uyezd that have
                      them, including Kaunas (Kovno), Vilijampole (Slobodka), Ariogala (Rogale),
                      Krakes (Krok), Babtai (Bobt), Jonava, Seredzius (Szrednik) and Vilkija
                      (Vilki). For all of these particular landsmanshaftn plots, with the
                      exception of Babtai, Jonava, and Seredzius/Vilkija, I have looked up the
                      New York City death certificate for each pre-1949 burial that has one on
                      file and added the information to the database (see the next paragraph as
                      to which database I am referring). That's how I knew that Dora MOGEL's
                      maiden name was ARONOFSKY because that information is not found on her
                      gravestone. [Kaunas uyezd towns in the vicinity of Keidan that
                      unfortunately have no landsmanshaftn plots are Josvainiai, Dotnuva,
                      Grinkiskis, Cekiske, Labunava, Vandziogala, Veliuona, and Zeimiai.]

                      These burials can be searched in the JewishGen Online Worldwide Burial
                      Registry (JOWBR) at http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/cemetery/ . The
                      Keidaner burials are also listed on Andy Cassel's "A Hole In the Heart"
                      Keidan website at http://www.keidan.net/ , although the information on them
                      gleaned from the New York City death certificates can be found only in the
                      JOWBR.

                      Belinda, your gggm Dora MOGEL, who died in Brooklyn on 4 January 1922 at
                      the age of 75, is not buried in any of the aforementioned landsmanshaftn
                      plots -- neither for Keidan, nor Kovno, nor for any of the other shtetls in
                      Kaunas uyezd. Please don't assume that just because someone was from a
                      certain town that they were buried in the landsmanshaftn plot for that
                      town. Not only could Jewish immigrants have been buried in a
                      landsmanshaftn plot that wasn't from the town or even the country that they
                      hailed from, but they could have been buried in a synagogue plot or some
                      other type of organizational plot (occupational, labor, fraternal,
                      etc.). My gf's sister, Lena GREENBLATT RICEMAN, and her husband Max
                      RICEMAN, who were both from Seta (Shat), Lithuania (near Keidan), are for
                      unknown reason buried in a plot for Chomsk, Belarus in Chicago's Waldheim
                      Cemetery.

                      So for your own sake please don't spin any more wheels looking for Dora
                      MOGEL in either Keidan or Kovno plots. And no need to write Washington
                      Cemetery in Brooklyn. I will try to call them on the first day that I will
                      be home this week during their regular business hours and see if Dora MOGEL
                      is buried elsewhere in their cemetery. Gus is correct that she is not
                      buried in New Mt. Carmel Cemetery. A search of the Mt. Carmel/New Mt.
                      Carmel online interment database at
                      http://www.mountcarmelcemetery.com/search.asp just for the first name Dora
                      in the year 1922 (regardless of surname) shows only 2 people by that
                      name. This is assuming that their database is complete, of course. I have
                      no reason to doubt that their database is not complete because out of the 8
                      burial societies that I have cataloged in Mt. Carmel and New Mt. Carmel
                      Cemeteries, all the burials are in their online database.

                      The next time I go to Mt. Hebron Cemetery I will ask the office if they can
                      show me a plot map for Chevra Bnei Israel Anshe Keidan to see whether it
                      can shed any further light as to why 22 of the 49 burials in the plot,
                      including Max MOGEL, are considered part of the adjacent Kovner Unt.
                      Verein. Perhaps there's a pattern that I'm not aware of, such as only
                      those buried in the back row. Although I don't have any immediate plans to
                      go to Mt. Hebron in the near future, when I do I will report back here if I
                      discover the answer to the mystery that I related here several days ago.

                      Ada Green
                    • Gus Levy
                      ADA - - - you are a champion! Gus
                      Message 10 of 14 , Mar 11, 2007
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                        ADA - - - you are a champion!
                        Gus
                        ----- Original Message -----
                      • Belinda Kaye
                        Dear Ada Thank you so much for such an interesting and informative reply. I thought Dora was buried in New Mt Carmel as it is written on her Death
                        Message 11 of 14 , Mar 13, 2007
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                          Dear Ada
                           
                          Thank you so much for such an interesting and informative reply.  I thought Dora was buried in New Mt Carmel as it is written on her Death Certificate.  As for me in London its very confusing with regard to burials in the USA with regard to the societies etc. However you have explained it brilliantly.
                           
                          I will now widen my search on the Lithuanian databases!
                           
                          As you probably can tell I am quite new to this and am astonished at how kind and helpful people are. If I can be of help to anyone from here in London I will be delighted to help.
                           
                          Once again my thanks to you.
                           
                          Belinda Kaye
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           





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                        • GERRICA@aol.com
                          I saw your letter on the digest. I don t suppose that your surname was Kaminsky before it was Kaye, was it? Rica B Goldberg Manchester, UK Still
                          Message 12 of 14 , Mar 13, 2007
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                            I saw your letter on the digest. 
                             
                             I don't suppose that your surname was Kaminsky before it was Kaye, was it?
                             
                            Rica B Goldberg
                            Manchester, UK
                             
                            Still researching:- ESTRY from somewhere in Poland; BERLINSKIE from Charlottenburg in Berlin; KAMENSHCHIK from Zeimia and Jonova in Lithuania; DIAMOND from Kovno Gubernia; FRANK from Garliava in Lithuania; LEVI & LESCZINSKIJ from Sompolno in Poland; PETEROFSKIE from Poland, SHELENGER/SHLESINGER (or SHLUZITEL)  from Vabalninkas in Lithuania.
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