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Mogel Family

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  • belinda.kaye
    Hi Am wondering whether anybody on this group has knowledge of the Mogel Family. According to the Jewishgen Website Max Mogel was buried in the Keidan Burial
    Message 1 of 14 , Mar 8, 2007
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      Hi

      Am wondering whether anybody on this group has knowledge of the Mogel
      Family. According to the Jewishgen Website Max Mogel was buried in
      the Keidan Burial Plot Mount Hebron New York. I'm especially
      interested in Dovra nee Aaronfsky and Yitzhak Mogel.


      Many thanks

      Belinda Kaye
      London
    • Gus Levy
      Dear Belinda Perhaps this might help you re: Max Mogel - - - He definitely is buried in the Chevra Bnei Israel Anshe Keidan (Congregation Sons of Israel the
      Message 2 of 14 , Mar 8, 2007
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        Dear Belinda"
         
        Perhaps this might help you re: Max Mogel - - -
         
        He definitely is buried in the "Chevra Bnei Israel Anshe Keidan" (Congregation
        Sons of Israel the People of Keidan) in Block 57, Mt. Hebron Cemetery,
         
        He died Nov. 23rd, 1942 age 69. His Hebrew name was Mordechai Alter
        ben Yisrael Yitzchak.
         
        His wife Celia Mogel is buried in the adjacent Kovner Verein. She died
        December 22, 1944, at the age of 65. Her Hebrew name was
        Tzipa bat Binvamin Zev Halevi
         
        I have no knowledge of Dvora or Yitzhak Mogel. To the best of my knowledge neither is buried in the "main"  Keidaner burial grounds in Mt. Washington Cemetery, Brooklyn, New York. Is it possible that Yitzhak Mogel is the father of Max?
         
        I hope this helps you.
         
        Gus Levy
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 9:35 AM
        Subject: [JewishKeidan] Mogel Family

        Hi

        Am wondering whether anybody on this group has knowledge of the Mogel
        Family. According to the Jewishgen Website Max Mogel was buried in
        the Keidan Burial Plot Mount Hebron New York. I'm especially
        interested in Dovra nee Aaronfsky and Yitzhak Mogel.

        Many thanks

        Belinda Kaye
        London

      • Belinda Kaye
        Dear Gus Thank you so much. Yes Dovra and Yitzhak Mogel were the parents of Max - I have a copy of Dovra or Dora s Death Certificate 1922 stating she was
        Message 3 of 14 , Mar 9, 2007
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          Dear Gus
           
          Thank you so much.  Yes Dovra and Yitzhak Mogel were the parents of Max - I have a copy of Dovra or Dora's Death Certificate 1922 stating she was buried at Mount Carmel Cemetery, have written to them but they have no knowledge of her burial. 
           
          The family came from Lithuania would I be right to assume the family would have originated from Keidan? 
          Thanks for the infomation I will write to Mt Washington to see whether she is buried there. 
           
          Belinda Kaye
          London UK
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Gus Levy
          Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 12:41 AM
          Subject: Re: [JewishKeidan] Mogel Family

          Dear Belinda"
           
          Perhaps this might help you re: Max Mogel - - -
           
          He definitely is buried in the "Chevra Bnei Israel Anshe Keidan" (Congregation
          Sons of Israel the People of Keidan) in Block 57, Mt. Hebron Cemetery,
           
          He died Nov. 23rd, 1942 age 69. His Hebrew name was Mordechai Alter
          ben Yisrael Yitzchak.
           
          His wife Celia Mogel is buried in the adjacent Kovner Verein. She died
          December 22, 1944, at the age of 65. Her Hebrew name was
          Tzipa bat Binvamin Zev Halevi
           
          I have no knowledge of Dvora or Yitzhak Mogel. To the best of my knowledge neither is buried in the "main"  Keidaner burial grounds in Mt. Washington Cemetery, Brooklyn, New York. Is it possible that Yitzhak Mogel is the father of Max?
           
          I hope this helps you.
           
          Gus Levy
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 9:35 AM
          Subject: [JewishKeidan] Mogel Family

          Hi

          Am wondering whether anybody on this group has knowledge of the Mogel
          Family. According to the Jewishgen Website Max Mogel was buried in
          the Keidan Burial Plot Mount Hebron New York. I'm especially
          interested in Dovra nee Aaronfsky and Yitzhak Mogel.

          Many thanks

          Belinda Kaye
          London

        • Ada Green
          ... Chances are that Max MOGEL s mother, Dora ARONOFSKY was originally from Kaunas or Vilijampole. Burials in the Keidaner plot at Mt. Hebron Cemetery are
          Message 4 of 14 , Mar 9, 2007
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            On Thu Mar 8, 2007 6:45 am (PST) belinda.kaye@... wrote:

            > Am wondering whether anybody on this group has knowledge of the Mogel
            > Family. According to the Jewishgen Website Max Mogel was buried in
            > the Keidan Burial Plot Mount Hebron New York. I'm especially
            > interested in Dovra nee Aaronfsky and Yitzhak Mogel.

            Chances are that Max MOGEL's mother, Dora ARONOFSKY was originally from
            Kaunas or Vilijampole. Burials in the Keidaner plot at Mt. Hebron Cemetery
            are apparently not what they appear to be. This is a long and complex
            story that I will relate here. Relate yes, but figure out, no.

            I am the person who cataloged Chevra Bnei Israel Anshe Keidan, Block 57,
            Path 2 at Mt. Hebron Cemetery as well as the immediately adjacent Kovner
            Unterstizungs Verein, Block 57, Path 3. The boundary line between these
            two societies is very clearly delineated and demarcated with posts and from
            a visual standpoint there is no way that anyone could get the burials in
            one society mixed up with the other, as there often can be with other New
            York area burial societies where the boundary may not be so clear.

            However, from the start there has been an inexplicable problem with these
            two plots. Max MOGEL is in the Keidaner plot, but his wife Celia is in the
            adjacent Kovner plot. Abraham CHASEN is in the Keidaner plot, but his
            parents, Vandziogala natives Gersen and Rose CHASEN, are in the Kovner
            plot. Morris and Rachel EPSTEIN are in the Keidaner plot but their sons
            Barney, Herman, Isidor and Samuel are in the Kovner plot. Nettie FINE is
            in the Keidaner plot, but her husband Hyman is in the Kovner plot. Fannie
            GELLER is in the Keidaner plot, but her husband Koppel is in the Kovner
            plot. Aaron KAHN is in the Keidaner plot, but his wife Sarah R. is in the
            Kovner plot. Gussie KATZ is in the Keidaner plot, but her parents Louis
            and Rachel and her sister Fay are in the Kovner plot. Jennie LEVINE is in
            the Keidaner plot, but her husband Isaac is in the Kovner plot. Boris
            LUSKIN is in the Keidaner plot, but his wife Celia is in the Kovner
            plot. Rachel PORTER is in the Keidaner plot, but her parents Jack and
            Sarah are in the Kovner plot. Simon SHIFMAN and his son Samuel are in the
            Keidaner plot, but Simon's wife and Samuel's mother Tillie is in the Kovner
            plot. Jennie SMITH and her son Irving are in the Keidaner plot, but
            Jennie's husband and Irving's father Morris is in the Kovner plot. Samuel
            TELZER is in the Keidaner plot, but his wife Sophie and his brothers
            Abraham and Louis are in the Kovner plot. There may be a few other cases
            like this as well, but I've more than made the point that something strange
            is going on here.

            These two societies are both defunct so there's no way of asking them
            what's the story. Nor does the cemetery have any answers. So in all my
            previous lectures on New York Jewish cemeteries I've been saying that the
            land on which the Keidaner plot sits probably once belonged only to the
            Kovner society, which is by far the larger of the two societies, and that
            the Kovner plot was subsequently subdivided into two separate plots to
            accommodate the Keidaner society.

            When I originally cataloged the Keidaner plot, it had a total of 49
            burials. However, it now has only 27 burials. For the JewishGen Online
            Worldwide Burial Registry (JOWBR), within the past two weeks I have
            transferred 22 burials in the Keidaner plot over to the adjacent Kovner
            plot, including Max MOGEL and all of the other Keidaner burials mentioned
            above (plus a few others). No, the burials certainly have not been
            physically moved or reinterred. The reason is because according to Mt.
            Hebron's Cemetery's new online interment database at
            http://www.mounthebroncemetery.com/search.asp?type=interment, Max MOGEL and
            all of the other people mentioned above are in the Kovner plot. Yes, these
            particular graves physically look like they are in the Keidaner plot, but
            according to the cemetery database they are in the the Kovner plot and the
            cemetery would certainly know better than I because presumably they have
            the deed to the plots.

            The Kovner plot is competely full with no room for more burials, whereas
            there is plenty of room in the Keidaner plot. So one can argue that when
            the Kovner plot got filled up, the society used the adjacent Keidaner plot
            for subsequent Kovner society burials. However, that theory doesn't hold
            water because Rachel PORTER who died in 1931 is buried on the grounds of
            the Keidaner plot, but her father Jack who died close to 40 years later, in
            1970, is buried in the Kovner plot. Plus Max and Celia MOGEL died within
            two years of each other, in 1942 and 1944, respectively, and are buried on
            the grounds of the Keidaner and Kovner plots, respectively. So I don't get
            it, I don't get it, I don't get it. Nor will I try any longer to get
            it. Even though Max MOGEL is physically on the grounds of the Keidaner
            society, if the cemetery database says that he's in the Kovner UV plot with
            his wife Celia, then so it is.

            Thus the point that I want to make is that Max MOGEL was most likely not
            from Keidan. The surname of his mother, ARONOFSKY is found most frequently
            in Kaunas and Vilijampole, although it's found in other Kaunas district
            shtetls as well, including Ariogala. Check the LitvakSIG All Lithuania
            Database. Variant spellings of the same surname are ARANOVSKY, ARENOVSKI,
            and ARINOVSKY, amongst others. The ending "SKI" can also be "SKIJ".

            Max MOGEL's original surname may have been MAGULEVSKY (and spelling
            variants). There were families with this surname from Ariogala and
            Dotnuva. Or his surname may have been MEYGEL, which is a family from
            Cekiske. His wife Celia's maiden name was NAVIASKY (NEVIAZKY, NEVIAZHSKY,
            NEVYAZHSKIJ), which is found primarily in Kaunas, but to a lesser extent in
            Vilijampole and Josvainiai.

            Hopefully this will point you in the right direction to look in the All
            Lithuania Database, but all evidence indicates that neither Max MOGEL nor
            his mother nor his wife were from Keidan and the first place you probably
            should look for the family of his mother and his wife is Kaunas and
            Vilijampole.

            Ada Green
            adagreen@...
          • Gus Levy
            I see where you got an answer from Ada Green, who really knows her Keiden history. She is the one to carry on. Indeed, she mentioned where Dora s family came
            Message 5 of 14 , Mar 9, 2007
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              I see where you got an answer from Ada Green, who really knows her Keiden history. She is the one to carry on. Indeed, she mentioned where Dora's family came from (not Keidan). I took the liberty of contacting Mt. Carmel for you. No Mogel is interred there.
               
              If you wish to contact Washington Cemetery (NOT Mt. Washington, I erred) the address is Washington Cemetery, 5400 Bay Parkway, Brooklyn, NY 11230.
               
              Listen to Ada, she is a champ on this.
               
              Gus.
              ----- Original Message -----
              To:
            • Linda Dubins
              Does anyone know anything about my great grand father Nasaniel Aron Dubinsky? To: JewishKeidan@yahoogroups.comFrom: w2lap@verizon.netDate: Fri, 9 Mar 2007
              Message 6 of 14 , Mar 10, 2007
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                Does anyone know anything about my great grand father Nasaniel Aron Dubinsky?


              • Linda Dubins
                There is also a Keidan section of a cemetery in Queens, NY. To: JewishKeidan@yahoogroups.comFrom: w2lap@verizon.netDate: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 12:33:29 -0500Subject:
                Message 7 of 14 , Mar 10, 2007
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                  There is also a Keidan section of a cemetery in Queens, NY.




                  To: JewishKeidan@yahoogroups.com
                  From: w2lap@...
                  Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 12:33:29 -0500
                  Subject: Re: [JewishKeidan] Mogel Family

                  I see where you got an answer from Ada Green, who really knows her Keiden history. She is the one to carry on. Indeed, she mentioned where Dora's family came from (not Keidan). I took the liberty of contacting Mt. Carmel for you. No Mogel is interred there.
                   
                  If you wish to contact Washington Cemetery (NOT Mt. Washington, I erred) the address is Washington Cemetery, 5400 Bay Parkway, Brooklyn, NY 11230.
                   
                  Listen to Ada, she is a champ on this.
                   
                  Gus.
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  To:




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                • belinda.kaye
                  Dear Ada Thank you so much for such a detailed reply. Obviously living in London I had no idea about the confusion over the different society Plots. However
                  Message 8 of 14 , Mar 11, 2007
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                    Dear Ada

                    Thank you so much for such a detailed reply. Obviously living in
                    London I had no idea about the confusion over the different society
                    Plots. However if you don't understand what went on at the cemetery
                    I'm not even going to try to figure it out from here.

                    I will take your advice and who knows I may even find the origins to
                    Dvora and Yitzhak - my Great Great Grandparents.

                    On a more personal note I wish to take this opportunity to thank you
                    for your fantastic work and extensive research. I had no previous
                    knowledge of Max Mogel which in turn lead me to Dvora and her other
                    children in the USA.

                    Once again thank you so much.

                    Belinda Kaye
                    Researching Mogel Aaronosky Kravitz - Lithuania
                  • Belinda Kaye
                    Dear Gus Thanks so much for contacting the cemetery. I will now write to Washington Cemetery to see whether she is buried there. I hope to go to New York
                    Message 9 of 14 , Mar 11, 2007
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                      Dear Gus
                       
                      Thanks so much for contacting the cemetery.  I will now write to Washington Cemetery to see whether she is buried there.
                       
                      I hope to go to New York later this year and now I know my Great Great Grandmother is buried in the City I hope to be able to locate and visit her.
                       
                      I greatly appreciate your help.
                       
                      Belinda Kaye

                    • Belinda Kaye
                      Many thanks - I m from London and not really up on all the different societies but going by the advice given I think my best bet would be to look for Kovner
                      Message 10 of 14 , Mar 11, 2007
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                        Many thanks - I'm from London and not really up on all the different societies but going by the advice given I think my best bet would be to look for Kovner Burial Societies.
                         
                         
                         
                        Belinda Kaye

                        Linda Dubins <lindadubins@...> wrote:
                        There is also a Keidan section of a cemetery in Queens, NY.




                        To: JewishKeidan@ yahoogroups. com
                        From: w2lap@verizon. net
                        Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 12:33:29 -0500
                        Subject: Re: [JewishKeidan] Mogel Family

                        I see where you got an answer from Ada Green, who really knows her Keiden history. She is the one to carry on. Indeed, she mentioned where Dora's family came from (not Keidan). I took the liberty of contacting Mt. Carmel for you. No Mogel is interred there.
                         
                        If you wish to contact Washington Cemetery (NOT Mt. Washington, I erred) the address is Washington Cemetery, 5400 Bay Parkway, Brooklyn, NY 11230.
                         
                        Listen to Ada, she is a champ on this.
                         
                        Gus.
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        To:



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                      • Ada Green
                        Thanks very much, Gus and Belinda, for such nice compliments about my research work on Keidaners buried in US Keidaner burial society plots and glad it was
                        Message 11 of 14 , Mar 11, 2007
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                          Thanks very much, Gus and Belinda, for such nice compliments about my
                          research work on Keidaners buried in US Keidaner burial society plots and
                          glad it was helpful to both of you.

                          To those of you who aren't aware, not only did I catalog the burials in the
                          Keidaner plot at Mt. Hebron Cemetery in Flushing, Queens, NY (which is the
                          smallest of the Keidaner plots), but also the ones in the all the other
                          Keidaner plots known to be in existence (3 at Washington Cemetery in
                          Brooklyn, one at Montefiore Cemetery in St. Albans, Queens, and the Kadaner
                          Unt. Verein at Waldheim Cemetery in Chicago).

                          I have also cataloged the burials in the landsmanshaftn plots in the New
                          York metropolitan area for all towns in the entire Kaunas uyezd that have
                          them, including Kaunas (Kovno), Vilijampole (Slobodka), Ariogala (Rogale),
                          Krakes (Krok), Babtai (Bobt), Jonava, Seredzius (Szrednik) and Vilkija
                          (Vilki). For all of these particular landsmanshaftn plots, with the
                          exception of Babtai, Jonava, and Seredzius/Vilkija, I have looked up the
                          New York City death certificate for each pre-1949 burial that has one on
                          file and added the information to the database (see the next paragraph as
                          to which database I am referring). That's how I knew that Dora MOGEL's
                          maiden name was ARONOFSKY because that information is not found on her
                          gravestone. [Kaunas uyezd towns in the vicinity of Keidan that
                          unfortunately have no landsmanshaftn plots are Josvainiai, Dotnuva,
                          Grinkiskis, Cekiske, Labunava, Vandziogala, Veliuona, and Zeimiai.]

                          These burials can be searched in the JewishGen Online Worldwide Burial
                          Registry (JOWBR) at http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/cemetery/ . The
                          Keidaner burials are also listed on Andy Cassel's "A Hole In the Heart"
                          Keidan website at http://www.keidan.net/ , although the information on them
                          gleaned from the New York City death certificates can be found only in the
                          JOWBR.

                          Belinda, your gggm Dora MOGEL, who died in Brooklyn on 4 January 1922 at
                          the age of 75, is not buried in any of the aforementioned landsmanshaftn
                          plots -- neither for Keidan, nor Kovno, nor for any of the other shtetls in
                          Kaunas uyezd. Please don't assume that just because someone was from a
                          certain town that they were buried in the landsmanshaftn plot for that
                          town. Not only could Jewish immigrants have been buried in a
                          landsmanshaftn plot that wasn't from the town or even the country that they
                          hailed from, but they could have been buried in a synagogue plot or some
                          other type of organizational plot (occupational, labor, fraternal,
                          etc.). My gf's sister, Lena GREENBLATT RICEMAN, and her husband Max
                          RICEMAN, who were both from Seta (Shat), Lithuania (near Keidan), are for
                          unknown reason buried in a plot for Chomsk, Belarus in Chicago's Waldheim
                          Cemetery.

                          So for your own sake please don't spin any more wheels looking for Dora
                          MOGEL in either Keidan or Kovno plots. And no need to write Washington
                          Cemetery in Brooklyn. I will try to call them on the first day that I will
                          be home this week during their regular business hours and see if Dora MOGEL
                          is buried elsewhere in their cemetery. Gus is correct that she is not
                          buried in New Mt. Carmel Cemetery. A search of the Mt. Carmel/New Mt.
                          Carmel online interment database at
                          http://www.mountcarmelcemetery.com/search.asp just for the first name Dora
                          in the year 1922 (regardless of surname) shows only 2 people by that
                          name. This is assuming that their database is complete, of course. I have
                          no reason to doubt that their database is not complete because out of the 8
                          burial societies that I have cataloged in Mt. Carmel and New Mt. Carmel
                          Cemeteries, all the burials are in their online database.

                          The next time I go to Mt. Hebron Cemetery I will ask the office if they can
                          show me a plot map for Chevra Bnei Israel Anshe Keidan to see whether it
                          can shed any further light as to why 22 of the 49 burials in the plot,
                          including Max MOGEL, are considered part of the adjacent Kovner Unt.
                          Verein. Perhaps there's a pattern that I'm not aware of, such as only
                          those buried in the back row. Although I don't have any immediate plans to
                          go to Mt. Hebron in the near future, when I do I will report back here if I
                          discover the answer to the mystery that I related here several days ago.

                          Ada Green
                        • Gus Levy
                          ADA - - - you are a champion! Gus
                          Message 12 of 14 , Mar 11, 2007
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                            ADA - - - you are a champion!
                            Gus
                            ----- Original Message -----
                          • Belinda Kaye
                            Dear Ada Thank you so much for such an interesting and informative reply. I thought Dora was buried in New Mt Carmel as it is written on her Death
                            Message 13 of 14 , Mar 13, 2007
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                              Dear Ada
                               
                              Thank you so much for such an interesting and informative reply.  I thought Dora was buried in New Mt Carmel as it is written on her Death Certificate.  As for me in London its very confusing with regard to burials in the USA with regard to the societies etc. However you have explained it brilliantly.
                               
                              I will now widen my search on the Lithuanian databases!
                               
                              As you probably can tell I am quite new to this and am astonished at how kind and helpful people are. If I can be of help to anyone from here in London I will be delighted to help.
                               
                              Once again my thanks to you.
                               
                              Belinda Kaye
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               





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                            • GERRICA@aol.com
                              I saw your letter on the digest. I don t suppose that your surname was Kaminsky before it was Kaye, was it? Rica B Goldberg Manchester, UK Still
                              Message 14 of 14 , Mar 13, 2007
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                                I saw your letter on the digest. 
                                 
                                 I don't suppose that your surname was Kaminsky before it was Kaye, was it?
                                 
                                Rica B Goldberg
                                Manchester, UK
                                 
                                Still researching:- ESTRY from somewhere in Poland; BERLINSKIE from Charlottenburg in Berlin; KAMENSHCHIK from Zeimia and Jonova in Lithuania; DIAMOND from Kovno Gubernia; FRANK from Garliava in Lithuania; LEVI & LESCZINSKIJ from Sompolno in Poland; PETEROFSKIE from Poland, SHELENGER/SHLESINGER (or SHLUZITEL)  from Vabalninkas in Lithuania.
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