Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our-victory] Homosexuals and Your Church

Expand Messages
  • NewKnightRider
    Therefore I am NOT NOW NOR WILL I EVER AGAIN BE a homosexual.  I refuse to even accept the label, EX-homosexual, though I do admit that that COULD have some
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 11, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      Therefore I am NOT NOW NOR WILL I EVER AGAIN BE a homosexual.  I refuse to even accept the label, EX-homosexual, though I do admit that that COULD have some merit.
       
      I AM A MAN OF GOD, WASHED IN AND REDEEMED BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB.
      I AM SEALED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE.  (Ephesians 1:7)
       
      ISAIAH 43:25
      I, even I am He that BLOTS OUT thy transgressions, and WILL NOT REMEMBER  thy sins.
       
      Love you all!
      jeffnkr

      --- On Wed, 11/11/09, NewKnightRider <nmic28732@...> wrote:

      From: NewKnightRider <nmic28732@...>
      Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our-victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
      To: Jesus-is-our-victory@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 3:10 PM

       
      John - Thom: 
      I love you both.  I call you both to peace; In the Name of our Lord, Who gave His all for us, I humbly and respectfully request that you both cease, and do whatever you have to do to restore fellowship among yourselves.
       
      I CORINTHIANS 6:9-11
      Know you not the the unrighteous shall not inherit the knigdom of God?  Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
      Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the Kingdom of God.
      And such WERE (past tense; denotes a condition that was once true but now IS NOT)
      some of you: but ye ARE washed, but ye ARE sanctified, but ye ARE justified in the Name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
       
       
      2 CORINTHIANS 5:17
      Therefore if ANY person be in Christ, he or she IS A NEW CREATION; old things ARE PASSED AWAY; behold, ALL things ARE BECOME NEW.
       
      My identity and personhood comes from and is defined by MY LORD AND MY GOD.  When I was apart from God, and an unsaved, unredeemed man, it was, but God reached down, and touched ME, and did ALL that He said He would do, and now my identity and personhood is NOT NOW, NOR WILL EVER AGAIN be defined by a sinful act or condition or behavior.
       
      We live in a fallen world.  THAT'S GOD'S PERFECT PLAN. He KNOWS we still live in a fallen world.  Therefore, every person alive on the earth will experience temptation.  SO WHAT!!!  I read Thom's entries, and in love, John, I say that I have never understood Thom to say that being tempted is a sin.  IT IS NOT A SIN TO BE TEMPTED.  If it were, our Lord and Savior would be a sinner, and we would all be lost, because the Bible says that Jesus Christ was tempted in all manner of sin, but He did not yield.  Not once. (Hebrews 4:15)
       
      BEING TEMPTED DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE ARE STILL HOMOSEXUAL.
       
      I choose to stand upon the inerrant Word of God that says I AM A NEW CREATION, OLD THINGS IN MY LIFE ARE DEAD, AND ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW, AND I AM ALIVE FOREVERMORE because of the Blood of the Lamb, my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and the love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, power, riches and strength of God my Father. 
       
      Thom - John:  Put this down.  Back away from the group for a season, and be reconcilled to each other.     
       
      I love you both. 
       
      jeffnkr

      --- On Wed, 11/11/09, Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com> wrote:

      From: Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com>
      Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
      To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
      Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 11:08 AM

       
      John,

      You are deliberately misinterpreting my words . . . and I can't imagine for what reason other than perhaps divisiveness.

      I have NEVER said that being a homosexual is a sin.  For whatever reason, many are oriented homosexually, as many are oriented heterosexually.  I have NEVER said that being tempted is a sin.  You are presenting a falsehood that is easily refuted by anyone who has read anything I have written or knows me at all.  I can't imagine what your purpose is other than to discredit a fellow Christian.

      I have said that engaging in homosexual sex is a sin, but being tempted is not.  The Bible is clear and it is our authority there.

      For everyone, I will answer the question John put below and clear up his intentional misrepresentation.  Yes . . . a man can be homosexual and not engage in prohibited behavior.  It's called celibacy and some homosexuals clearly believe it is God's calling on their lives.

      We are all sinners, John, unless you choose to set aside that part of the Bible as well.

      Thom
      http://thom- signsofastruggle .blogspot. com/

      --- On Wed, 11/11/09, John Spooner. South Oz. <skunk16@bigpond. com> wrote:

      From: John Spooner. South Oz. <skunk16@bigpond. com>
      Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
      To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
      Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 9:56 AM

       
      I agree. Edmund does address it well.

      Of course, I wonder - if one were to put the premise to Edmund that the Bible does prohibit laying with a man AS with a woman (penetrative sex) - and that we interpret that to mean ANAL SEX - would he agree that (that specific) behavior could be interpreted as 'acting out'?

      This would not contradict what he has put forth, and it would also express Thom's premise (of acting out) in the manner it SHOULD be expressed. Thom condemns the BEING, instead of the DOING and that is where his argument has flaws. A man can be homosexual, and never engage in prohibited sexual behavior. Does Thom believe that man is still a sinner? I think he does.

      --- In Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com, edmund ortega <eortega42@. ..> wrote:
      >


    • Thom Hunter
      Thank you Jeff.  My desire is to live peaceably with all men.  I only responded because of the inaccuracies attributed to me.  To not respond with have
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 11, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Thank you Jeff.  My desire is to live peaceably with all men.  I only responded because of the inaccuracies attributed to me.  To not respond with have given them validity and they might have been repeated further as being representative of my views.  As one in the ministry, that would be very dangerous to overlook.

        --- On Wed, 11/11/09, NewKnightRider <nmic28732@...> wrote:

        From: NewKnightRider <nmic28732@...>
        Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our-victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
        To: Jesus-is-our-victory@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 2:10 PM

         

        John - Thom: 
        I love you both.  I call you both to peace; In the Name of our Lord, Who gave His all for us, I humbly and respectfully request that you both cease, and do whatever you have to do to restore fellowship among yourselves.
         
        I CORINTHIANS 6:9-11
        Know you not the the unrighteous shall not inherit the knigdom of God?  Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
        Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the Kingdom of God.
        And such WERE (past tense; denotes a condition that was once true but now IS NOT)
        some of you: but ye ARE washed, but ye ARE sanctified, but ye ARE justified in the Name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
         
         
        2 CORINTHIANS 5:17
        Therefore if ANY person be in Christ, he or she IS A NEW CREATION; old things ARE PASSED AWAY; behold, ALL things ARE BECOME NEW.
         
        My identity and personhood comes from and is defined by MY LORD AND MY GOD.  When I was apart from God, and an unsaved, unredeemed man, it was, but God reached down, and touched ME, and did ALL that He said He would do, and now my identity and personhood is NOT NOW, NOR WILL EVER AGAIN be defined by a sinful act or condition or behavior.
         
        We live in a fallen world.  THAT'S GOD'S PERFECT PLAN. He KNOWS we still live in a fallen world.  Therefore, every person alive on the earth will experience temptation.  SO WHAT!!!  I read Thom's entries, and in love, John, I say that I have never understood Thom to say that being tempted is a sin.  IT IS NOT A SIN TO BE TEMPTED.  If it were, our Lord and Savior would be a sinner, and we would all be lost, because the Bible says that Jesus Christ was tempted in all manner of sin, but He did not yield.  Not once. (Hebrews 4:15)
         
        BEING TEMPTED DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE ARE STILL HOMOSEXUAL.
         
        I choose to stand upon the inerrant Word of God that says I AM A NEW CREATION, OLD THINGS IN MY LIFE ARE DEAD, AND ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW, AND I AM ALIVE FOREVERMORE because of the Blood of the Lamb, my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and the love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, power, riches and strength of God my Father. 
         
        Thom - John:  Put this down.  Back away from the group for a season, and be reconcilled to each other.     
         
        I love you both. 
         
        jeffnkr

        --- On Wed, 11/11/09, Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com> wrote:

        From: Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com>
        Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
        To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
        Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 11:08 AM

         
        John,

        You are deliberately misinterpreting my words . . . and I can't imagine for what reason other than perhaps divisiveness.

        I have NEVER said that being a homosexual is a sin.  For whatever reason, many are oriented homosexually, as many are oriented heterosexually.  I have NEVER said that being tempted is a sin.  You are presenting a falsehood that is easily refuted by anyone who has read anything I have written or knows me at all.  I can't imagine what your purpose is other than to discredit a fellow Christian.

        I have said that engaging in homosexual sex is a sin, but being tempted is not.  The Bible is clear and it is our authority there.

        For everyone, I will answer the question John put below and clear up his intentional misrepresentation.  Yes . . . a man can be homosexual and not engage in prohibited behavior.  It's called celibacy and some homosexuals clearly believe it is God's calling on their lives.

        We are all sinners, John, unless you choose to set aside that part of the Bible as well.

        Thom
        http://thom- signsofastruggle .blogspot. com/

        --- On Wed, 11/11/09, John Spooner. South Oz. <skunk16@bigpond. com> wrote:

        From: John Spooner. South Oz. <skunk16@bigpond. com>
        Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
        To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
        Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 9:56 AM

         
        I agree. Edmund does address it well.

        Of course, I wonder - if one were to put the premise to Edmund that the Bible does prohibit laying with a man AS with a woman (penetrative sex) - and that we interpret that to mean ANAL SEX - would he agree that (that specific) behavior could be interpreted as 'acting out'?

        This would not contradict what he has put forth, and it would also express Thom's premise (of acting out) in the manner it SHOULD be expressed. Thom condemns the BEING, instead of the DOING and that is where his argument has flaws. A man can be homosexual, and never engage in prohibited sexual behavior. Does Thom believe that man is still a sinner? I think he does.

        --- In Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com, edmund ortega <eortega42@. ..> wrote:
        >



      • edmund ortega
        Thom, I am simply saying that science has it s place here in the discussion of homosexuality. And there is nothing to show that homosexuals should be
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 14, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Thom,  I am simply saying that science has it's place here in the discussion of homosexuality.  And there is nothing to show that homosexuals should be condemned by Christians or anyone else.
           
          When you self-loathe and have raised it to a level of a craft online, you are feeding into the homophobia that is out there in the world.  However, "Greater is He that is in us, than He who is in the world."
           
          Again, I leave you with "Peace",
           
          Brother in Christ Jesus, Savior, and Awesome God,
          Edmund

           
          On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 12:30 PM, Thom Hunter <th2950@...> wrote:
           

          Thank you Jeff.  My desire is to live peaceably with all men.  I only responded because of the inaccuracies attributed to me.  To not respond with have given them validity and they might have been repeated further as being representative of my views.  As one in the ministry, that would be very dangerous to overlook.


          --- On Wed, 11/11/09, NewKnightRider <nmic28732@...> wrote:

          From: NewKnightRider <nmic28732@...>

          Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our-victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
          To: Jesus-is-our-victory@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 2:10 PM

           

          John - Thom: 
          I love you both.  I call you both to peace; In the Name of our Lord, Who gave His all for us, I humbly and respectfully request that you both cease, and do whatever you have to do to restore fellowship among yourselves.
           
          I CORINTHIANS 6:9-11
          Know you not the the unrighteous shall not inherit the knigdom of God?  Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
          Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the Kingdom of God.
          And such WERE (past tense; denotes a condition that was once true but now IS NOT)
          some of you: but ye ARE washed, but ye ARE sanctified, but ye ARE justified in the Name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
           
           
          2 CORINTHIANS 5:17
          Therefore if ANY person be in Christ, he or she IS A NEW CREATION; old things ARE PASSED AWAY; behold, ALL things ARE BECOME NEW.
           
          My identity and personhood comes from and is defined by MY LORD AND MY GOD.  When I was apart from God, and an unsaved, unredeemed man, it was, but God reached down, and touched ME, and did ALL that He said He would do, and now my identity and personhood is NOT NOW, NOR WILL EVER AGAIN be defined by a sinful act or condition or behavior.
           
          We live in a fallen world.  THAT'S GOD'S PERFECT PLAN. He KNOWS we still live in a fallen world.  Therefore, every person alive on the earth will experience temptation.  SO WHAT!!!  I read Thom's entries, and in love, John, I say that I have never understood Thom to say that being tempted is a sin.  IT IS NOT A SIN TO BE TEMPTED.  If it were, our Lord and Savior would be a sinner, and we would all be lost, because the Bible says that Jesus Christ was tempted in all manner of sin, but He did not yield.  Not once. (Hebrews 4:15)
           
          BEING TEMPTED DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE ARE STILL HOMOSEXUAL.
           
          I choose to stand upon the inerrant Word of God that says I AM A NEW CREATION, OLD THINGS IN MY LIFE ARE DEAD, AND ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW, AND I AM ALIVE FOREVERMORE because of the Blood of the Lamb, my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and the love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, power, riches and strength of God my Father. 
           
          Thom - John:  Put this down.  Back away from the group for a season, and be reconcilled to each other.     
           
          I love you both. 
           
          jeffnkr

          --- On Wed, 11/11/09, Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com> wrote:

          From: Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com>
          Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
          To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
          Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 11:08 AM

           
          John,

          You are deliberately misinterpreting my words . . . and I can't imagine for what reason other than perhaps divisiveness.

          I have NEVER said that being a homosexual is a sin.  For whatever reason, many are oriented homosexually, as many are oriented heterosexually.  I have NEVER said that being tempted is a sin.  You are presenting a falsehood that is easily refuted by anyone who has read anything I have written or knows me at all.  I can't imagine what your purpose is other than to discredit a fellow Christian.

          I have said that engaging in homosexual sex is a sin, but being tempted is not.  The Bible is clear and it is our authority there.

          For everyone, I will answer the question John put below and clear up his intentional misrepresentation.  Yes . . . a man can be homosexual and not engage in prohibited behavior.  It's called celibacy and some homosexuals clearly believe it is God's calling on their lives.

          We are all sinners, John, unless you choose to set aside that part of the Bible as well.

          Thom
          http://thom- signsofastruggle .blogspot. com/

          --- On Wed, 11/11/09, John Spooner. South Oz. <skunk16@bigpond. com> wrote:

          From: John Spooner. South Oz. <skunk16@bigpond. com>
          Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
          To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
          Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 9:56 AM

           
          I agree. Edmund does address it well.

          Of course, I wonder - if one were to put the premise to Edmund that the Bible does prohibit laying with a man AS with a woman (penetrative sex) - and that we interpret that to mean ANAL SEX - would he agree that (that specific) behavior could be interpreted as 'acting out'?

          This would not contradict what he has put forth, and it would also express Thom's premise (of acting out) in the manner it SHOULD be expressed. Thom condemns the BEING, instead of the DOING and that is where his argument has flaws. A man can be homosexual, and never engage in prohibited sexual behavior. Does Thom believe that man is still a sinner? I think he does.

          --- In Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com, edmund ortega <eortega42@. ..> wrote:
          >




        • Thom Hunter
          Edmund, We re not that far off.  I believe there should be no condemnation.  Even if you hold the belief that I do that participating in homosexual sex is a
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 14, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Edmund,

            We're not that far off.  I believe there should be no condemnation.  Even if you hold the belief that I do that participating in homosexual sex is a sin, it is just a sin . . . just like lying or coveting or gossiping or the more consequential ones like murder, etc.  Jesus died to cover all the sins of those who accept Him and there is therefore no condemnation.

            I do not self-loathe.  Indeed, I have learned to relinquish the shame and guilt that brings on self-loathing and turn it over to Christ.  The point of my writing on the blog and in the series in The Baptist Messenger would be to bring about understanding in the hopes of reducing homophobia.  I think you may be interpreting the things I write through a bias that may be the result of homophobia you have experienced from others.  My theme is always grace, compassion, forgiveness, love and respect.  Maybe you haven't actually read them?

            I'm with you, brother, not against you.

            Thom
            http://thom-signsofastruggle.blogspot.com/

            --- On Sat, 11/14/09, edmund ortega <eortega42@...> wrote:

            From: edmund ortega <eortega42@...>
            Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our-victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
            To: Jesus-is-our-victory@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 3:26 PM

             

            Thom,  I am simply saying that science has it's place here in the discussion of homosexuality.  And there is nothing to show that homosexuals should be condemned by Christians or anyone else.
             
            When you self-loathe and have raised it to a level of a craft online, you are feeding into the homophobia that is out there in the world.  However, "Greater is He that is in us, than He who is in the world."
             
            Again, I leave you with "Peace",
             
            Brother in Christ Jesus, Savior, and Awesome God,
            Edmund

             
            On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 12:30 PM, Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com> wrote:
             

            Thank you Jeff.  My desire is to live peaceably with all men.  I only responded because of the inaccuracies attributed to me.  To not respond with have given them validity and they might have been repeated further as being representative of my views.  As one in the ministry, that would be very dangerous to overlook.


            --- On Wed, 11/11/09, NewKnightRider <nmic28732@yahoo. com> wrote:

            From: NewKnightRider <nmic28732@yahoo. com>

            Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
            To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
            Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 2:10 PM

             

            John - Thom: 
            I love you both.  I call you both to peace; In the Name of our Lord, Who gave His all for us, I humbly and respectfully request that you both cease, and do whatever you have to do to restore fellowship among yourselves.
             
            I CORINTHIANS 6:9-11
            Know you not the the unrighteous shall not inherit the knigdom of God?  Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
            Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the Kingdom of God.
            And such WERE (past tense; denotes a condition that was once true but now IS NOT)
            some of you: but ye ARE washed, but ye ARE sanctified, but ye ARE justified in the Name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
             
             
            2 CORINTHIANS 5:17
            Therefore if ANY person be in Christ, he or she IS A NEW CREATION; old things ARE PASSED AWAY; behold, ALL things ARE BECOME NEW.
             
            My identity and personhood comes from and is defined by MY LORD AND MY GOD.  When I was apart from God, and an unsaved, unredeemed man, it was, but God reached down, and touched ME, and did ALL that He said He would do, and now my identity and personhood is NOT NOW, NOR WILL EVER AGAIN be defined by a sinful act or condition or behavior.
             
            We live in a fallen world.  THAT'S GOD'S PERFECT PLAN. He KNOWS we still live in a fallen world.  Therefore, every person alive on the earth will experience temptation.  SO WHAT!!!  I read Thom's entries, and in love, John, I say that I have never understood Thom to say that being tempted is a sin.  IT IS NOT A SIN TO BE TEMPTED.  If it were, our Lord and Savior would be a sinner, and we would all be lost, because the Bible says that Jesus Christ was tempted in all manner of sin, but He did not yield.  Not once. (Hebrews 4:15)
             
            BEING TEMPTED DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE ARE STILL HOMOSEXUAL.
             
            I choose to stand upon the inerrant Word of God that says I AM A NEW CREATION, OLD THINGS IN MY LIFE ARE DEAD, AND ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW, AND I AM ALIVE FOREVERMORE because of the Blood of the Lamb, my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and the love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, power, riches and strength of God my Father. 
             
            Thom - John:  Put this down.  Back away from the group for a season, and be reconcilled to each other.     
             
            I love you both. 
             
            jeffnkr

            --- On Wed, 11/11/09, Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com> wrote:

            From: Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com>
            Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
            To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
            Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 11:08 AM

             
            John,

            You are deliberately misinterpreting my words . . . and I can't imagine for what reason other than perhaps divisiveness.

            I have NEVER said that being a homosexual is a sin.  For whatever reason, many are oriented homosexually, as many are oriented heterosexually.  I have NEVER said that being tempted is a sin.  You are presenting a falsehood that is easily refuted by anyone who has read anything I have written or knows me at all.  I can't imagine what your purpose is other than to discredit a fellow Christian.

            I have said that engaging in homosexual sex is a sin, but being tempted is not.  The Bible is clear and it is our authority there.

            For everyone, I will answer the question John put below and clear up his intentional misrepresentation.  Yes . . . a man can be homosexual and not engage in prohibited behavior.  It's called celibacy and some homosexuals clearly believe it is God's calling on their lives.

            We are all sinners, John, unless you choose to set aside that part of the Bible as well.

            Thom
            http://thom- signsofastruggle .blogspot. com/

            --- On Wed, 11/11/09, John Spooner. South Oz. <skunk16@bigpond. com> wrote:

            From: John Spooner. South Oz. <skunk16@bigpond. com>
            Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
            To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
            Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 9:56 AM

             
            I agree. Edmund does address it well.

            Of course, I wonder - if one were to put the premise to Edmund that the Bible does prohibit laying with a man AS with a woman (penetrative sex) - and that we interpret that to mean ANAL SEX - would he agree that (that specific) behavior could be interpreted as 'acting out'?

            This would not contradict what he has put forth, and it would also express Thom's premise (of acting out) in the manner it SHOULD be expressed. Thom condemns the BEING, instead of the DOING and that is where his argument has flaws. A man can be homosexual, and never engage in prohibited sexual behavior. Does Thom believe that man is still a sinner? I think he does.

            --- In Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com, edmund ortega <eortega42@. ..> wrote:
            >





          • John Cliford
            Thank you Edmund, us Christians loose most of the gay world when we say,,,,,,,, come here and let us fix you,,,,,,, make you like us good Christians,,,,,,,,
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 14, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Thank you Edmund,

              us Christians loose most of the gay world when we say,,,,,,,, come here and let us fix you,,,,,,, make you like us good Christians,,,,,,,, "then we will let you be a Christian".

              No wonder they have a disdain for all Christians,,,,,,,, they do not know any that will say,,,,,"you are a sinner, just like us",,,,,,,, lets us tell you about Jesus Christ's love and forgiveness.

              John






              From: Thom Hunter <th2950@...>
              To: Jesus-is-our-victory@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, November 14, 2009 1:42:49 PM
              Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our-victory] Homosexuals and Your Church

               

              Edmund,

              We're not that far off.  I believe there should be no condemnation.  Even if you hold the belief that I do that participating in homosexual sex is a sin, it is just a sin . . . just like lying or coveting or gossiping or the more consequential ones like murder, etc.  Jesus died to cover all the sins of those who accept Him and there is therefore no condemnation.

              I do not self-loathe.  Indeed, I have learned to relinquish the shame and guilt that brings on self-loathing and turn it over to Christ.  The point of my writing on the blog and in the series in The Baptist Messenger would be to bring about understanding in the hopes of reducing homophobia.  I think you may be interpreting the things I write through a bias that may be the result of homophobia you have experienced from others.  My theme is always grace, compassion, forgiveness, love and respect.  Maybe you haven't actually read them?

              I'm with you, brother, not against you.

              Thom
              http://thom- signsofastruggle .blogspot. com/

              --- On Sat, 11/14/09, edmund ortega <eortega42@gmail. com> wrote:

              From: edmund ortega <eortega42@gmail. com>
              Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
              To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
              Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 3:26 PM

               

              Thom,  I am simply saying that science has it's place here in the discussion of homosexuality.  And there is nothing to show that homosexuals should be condemned by Christians or anyone else.
               
              When you self-loathe and have raised it to a level of a craft online, you are feeding into the homophobia that is out there in the world.  However, "Greater is He that is in us, than He who is in the world."
               
              Again, I leave you with "Peace",
               
              Brother in Christ Jesus, Savior, and Awesome God,
              Edmund

               
              On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 12:30 PM, Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com> wrote:
               

              Thank you Jeff.  My desire is to live peaceably with all men.  I only responded because of the inaccuracies attributed to me.  To not respond with have given them validity and they might have been repeated further as being representative of my views.  As one in the ministry, that would be very dangerous to overlook.


              --- On Wed, 11/11/09, NewKnightRider <nmic28732@yahoo. com> wrote:

              From: NewKnightRider <nmic28732@yahoo. com>

              Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
              To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
              Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 2:10 PM

               

              John - Thom: 
              I love you both.  I call you both to peace; In the Name of our Lord, Who gave His all for us, I humbly and respectfully request that you both cease, and do whatever you have to do to restore fellowship among yourselves.
               
              I CORINTHIANS 6:9-11
              Know you not the the unrighteous shall not inherit the knigdom of God?  Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
              Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the Kingdom of God.
              And such WERE (past tense; denotes a condition that was once true but now IS NOT)
              some of you: but ye ARE washed, but ye ARE sanctified, but ye ARE justified in the Name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
               
               
              2 CORINTHIANS 5:17
              Therefore if ANY person be in Christ, he or she IS A NEW CREATION; old things ARE PASSED AWAY; behold, ALL things ARE BECOME NEW.
               
              My identity and personhood comes from and is defined by MY LORD AND MY GOD.  When I was apart from God, and an unsaved, unredeemed man, it was, but God reached down, and touched ME, and did ALL that He said He would do, and now my identity and personhood is NOT NOW, NOR WILL EVER AGAIN be defined by a sinful act or condition or behavior.
               
              We live in a fallen world.  THAT'S GOD'S PERFECT PLAN. He KNOWS we still live in a fallen world.  Therefore, every person alive on the earth will experience temptation.  SO WHAT!!!  I read Thom's entries, and in love, John, I say that I have never understood Thom to say that being tempted is a sin.  IT IS NOT A SIN TO BE TEMPTED.  If it were, our Lord and Savior would be a sinner, and we would all be lost, because the Bible says that Jesus Christ was tempted in all manner of sin, but He did not yield.  Not once. (Hebrews 4:15)
               
              BEING TEMPTED DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE ARE STILL HOMOSEXUAL.
               
              I choose to stand upon the inerrant Word of God that says I AM A NEW CREATION, OLD THINGS IN MY LIFE ARE DEAD, AND ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW, AND I AM ALIVE FOREVERMORE because of the Blood of the Lamb, my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and the love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, power, riches and strength of God my Father. 
               
              Thom - John:  Put this down.  Back away from the group for a season, and be reconcilled to each other.     
               
              I love you both. 
               
              jeffnkr

              --- On Wed, 11/11/09, Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com> wrote:

              From: Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com>
              Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
              To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
              Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 11:08 AM

               
              John,

              You are deliberately misinterpreting my words . . . and I can't imagine for what reason other than perhaps divisiveness.

              I have NEVER said that being a homosexual is a sin.  For whatever reason, many are oriented homosexually, as many are oriented heterosexually.  I have NEVER said that being tempted is a sin.  You are presenting a falsehood that is easily refuted by anyone who has read anything I have written or knows me at all.  I can't imagine what your purpose is other than to discredit a fellow Christian.

              I have said that engaging in homosexual sex is a sin, but being tempted is not.  The Bible is clear and it is our authority there.

              For everyone, I will answer the question John put below and clear up his intentional misrepresentation.  Yes . . . a man can be homosexual and not engage in prohibited behavior.  It's called celibacy and some homosexuals clearly believe it is God's calling on their lives.

              We are all sinners, John, unless you choose to set aside that part of the Bible as well.

              Thom
              http://thom-/ signsofastruggle .blogspot. com/

              --- On Wed, 11/11/09, John Spooner. South Oz. <skunk16@bigpond. com> wrote:

              From: John Spooner. South Oz. <skunk16@bigpond. com>
              Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
              To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
              Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 9:56 AM

               
              I agree. Edmund does address it well.

              Of course, I wonder - if one were to put the premise to Edmund that the Bible does prohibit laying with a man AS with a woman (penetrative sex) - and that we interpret that to mean ANAL SEX - would he agree that (that specific) behavior could be interpreted as 'acting out'?

              This would not contradict what he has put forth, and it would also express Thom's premise (of acting out) in the manner it SHOULD be expressed. Thom condemns the BEING, instead of the DOING and that is where his argument has flaws. A man can be homosexual, and never engage in prohibited sexual behavior. Does Thom believe that man is still a sinner? I think he does.

              --- In Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com, edmund ortega <eortega42@. ..> wrote:
              >





            • edmund ortega
              Thank you John and Thom, We are brothers in the same loving, forgiving and merciful Savior. I support your walks with the Jesus. I know I am a sinner, and
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 16, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Thank you John and Thom,
                 
                We are brothers in the same loving, forgiving and merciful Savior.  I support your walks with the Jesus.  I know I am a sinner, and have repented of my sin.  I have not been to a sex club in 3 years.  Praise God!
                 
                I gave up drinking alcohol 2 1/2 years ago...Praise Jesus, I am able to reach alcoholics.  Thank the Lord, I am compassionate to those who have been victimized by homophobic Christians through ostricization.  We all are trying our best to reach out to homosexuals, that God is there for them as well.  Amen.
                 
                Last Sunday, I attended an Episcopal service.  The Vicar is openly gay...and so are some of the congregation.  I love them like everybody else, in the face of those Christians who are so self-righteous to judge them.  I will return this evening as I am helping the Episcopalians to provide Thanksgiving Dinner boxes for the homeless in my town. 
                 
                Edmund
                 
                Happy Thanksgiving, yall!

                On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 8:27 PM, John Cliford <john_c_55@...> wrote:
                 

                Thank you Edmund,

                us Christians loose most of the gay world when we say,,,,,,,, come here and let us fix you,,,,,,, make you like us good Christians,,,,,,,, "then we will let you be a Christian".

                No wonder they have a disdain for all Christians,,,,,,,, they do not know any that will say,,,,,"you are a sinner, just like us",,,,,,,, lets us tell you about Jesus Christ's love and forgiveness.

                John






                From: Thom Hunter <th2950@...>
                Sent: Sat, November 14, 2009 1:42:49 PM

                Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our-victory] Homosexuals and Your Church

                 

                Edmund,

                We're not that far off.  I believe there should be no condemnation.  Even if you hold the belief that I do that participating in homosexual sex is a sin, it is just a sin . . . just like lying or coveting or gossiping or the more consequential ones like murder, etc.  Jesus died to cover all the sins of those who accept Him and there is therefore no condemnation.

                I do not self-loathe.  Indeed, I have learned to relinquish the shame and guilt that brings on self-loathing and turn it over to Christ.  The point of my writing on the blog and in the series in The Baptist Messenger would be to bring about understanding in the hopes of reducing homophobia.  I think you may be interpreting the things I write through a bias that may be the result of homophobia you have experienced from others.  My theme is always grace, compassion, forgiveness, love and respect.  Maybe you haven't actually read them?

                I'm with you, brother, not against you.

                Thom
                http://thom- signsofastruggle .blogspot. com/

                --- On Sat, 11/14/09, edmund ortega <eortega42@gmail. com> wrote:

                From: edmund ortega <eortega42@gmail. com>
                Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com

                Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 3:26 PM

                 

                Thom,  I am simply saying that science has it's place here in the discussion of homosexuality.  And there is nothing to show that homosexuals should be condemned by Christians or anyone else.
                 
                When you self-loathe and have raised it to a level of a craft online, you are feeding into the homophobia that is out there in the world.  However, "Greater is He that is in us, than He who is in the world."
                 
                Again, I leave you with "Peace",
                 
                Brother in Christ Jesus, Savior, and Awesome God,
                Edmund

                 
                On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 12:30 PM, Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com> wrote:
                 

                Thank you Jeff.  My desire is to live peaceably with all men.  I only responded because of the inaccuracies attributed to me.  To not respond with have given them validity and they might have been repeated further as being representative of my views.  As one in the ministry, that would be very dangerous to overlook.


                --- On Wed, 11/11/09, NewKnightRider <nmic28732@yahoo. com> wrote:

                From: NewKnightRider <nmic28732@yahoo. com>

                Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
                Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 2:10 PM

                 

                John - Thom: 
                I love you both.  I call you both to peace; In the Name of our Lord, Who gave His all for us, I humbly and respectfully request that you both cease, and do whatever you have to do to restore fellowship among yourselves.
                 
                I CORINTHIANS 6:9-11
                Know you not the the unrighteous shall not inherit the knigdom of God?  Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
                Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the Kingdom of God.
                And such WERE (past tense; denotes a condition that was once true but now IS NOT)
                some of you: but ye ARE washed, but ye ARE sanctified, but ye ARE justified in the Name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
                 
                 
                2 CORINTHIANS 5:17
                Therefore if ANY person be in Christ, he or she IS A NEW CREATION; old things ARE PASSED AWAY; behold, ALL things ARE BECOME NEW.
                 
                My identity and personhood comes from and is defined by MY LORD AND MY GOD.  When I was apart from God, and an unsaved, unredeemed man, it was, but God reached down, and touched ME, and did ALL that He said He would do, and now my identity and personhood is NOT NOW, NOR WILL EVER AGAIN be defined by a sinful act or condition or behavior.
                 
                We live in a fallen world.  THAT'S GOD'S PERFECT PLAN. He KNOWS we still live in a fallen world.  Therefore, every person alive on the earth will experience temptation.  SO WHAT!!!  I read Thom's entries, and in love, John, I say that I have never understood Thom to say that being tempted is a sin.  IT IS NOT A SIN TO BE TEMPTED.  If it were, our Lord and Savior would be a sinner, and we would all be lost, because the Bible says that Jesus Christ was tempted in all manner of sin, but He did not yield.  Not once. (Hebrews 4:15)
                 
                BEING TEMPTED DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE ARE STILL HOMOSEXUAL.
                 
                I choose to stand upon the inerrant Word of God that says I AM A NEW CREATION, OLD THINGS IN MY LIFE ARE DEAD, AND ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW, AND I AM ALIVE FOREVERMORE because of the Blood of the Lamb, my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and the love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, power, riches and strength of God my Father. 
                 
                Thom - John:  Put this down.  Back away from the group for a season, and be reconcilled to each other.     
                 
                I love you both. 
                 
                jeffnkr

                --- On Wed, 11/11/09, Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com> wrote:

                From: Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com>
                Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
                Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 11:08 AM

                 
                John,

                You are deliberately misinterpreting my words . . . and I can't imagine for what reason other than perhaps divisiveness.

                I have NEVER said that being a homosexual is a sin.  For whatever reason, many are oriented homosexually, as many are oriented heterosexually.  I have NEVER said that being tempted is a sin.  You are presenting a falsehood that is easily refuted by anyone who has read anything I have written or knows me at all.  I can't imagine what your purpose is other than to discredit a fellow Christian.

                I have said that engaging in homosexual sex is a sin, but being tempted is not.  The Bible is clear and it is our authority there.

                For everyone, I will answer the question John put below and clear up his intentional misrepresentation.  Yes . . . a man can be homosexual and not engage in prohibited behavior.  It's called celibacy and some homosexuals clearly believe it is God's calling on their lives.

                We are all sinners, John, unless you choose to set aside that part of the Bible as well.

                Thom
                http://thom-/ signsofastruggle .blogspot. com/

                --- On Wed, 11/11/09, John Spooner. South Oz. <skunk16@bigpond. com> wrote:

                From: John Spooner. South Oz. <skunk16@bigpond. com>
                Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
                Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 9:56 AM

                 
                I agree. Edmund does address it well.

                Of course, I wonder - if one were to put the premise to Edmund that the Bible does prohibit laying with a man AS with a woman (penetrative sex) - and that we interpret that to mean ANAL SEX - would he agree that (that specific) behavior could be interpreted as 'acting out'?

                This would not contradict what he has put forth, and it would also express Thom's premise (of acting out) in the manner it SHOULD be expressed. Thom condemns the BEING, instead of the DOING and that is where his argument has flaws. A man can be homosexual, and never engage in prohibited sexual behavior. Does Thom believe that man is still a sinner? I think he does.

                --- In Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com, edmund ortega <eortega42@. ..> wrote:
                >






              • Terry Settles
                The name of this group is Jesus is our victory, He is also our example out of all the messages of members in this group it seems that many people tolerate same
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 16, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  The name of this group is Jesus is our victory, He is also our example out of all the messages of members in this group it seems that many people tolerate same sex relationships instead of being an Overcomer. REV 12:11 Brother i'm proud of your progress! What do you expect to receive from that Vicar in the pulpit who is walking after the flesh? Terry.

                  ----------
                  Sent from AT&T's Wireless network using Mobile Email

                  ------Original Message------
                  From: edmund ortega <eortega42@...>
                  To: <Jesus-is-our-victory@yahoogroups.com>
                  Date: Mon, Nov 16, 2009 02:02 PM
                  Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our-victory] Homosexuals and Your Church

                  Thank you John and Thom,

                  We are brothers in the same loving, forgiving and merciful Savior. I
                  support your walks with the Jesus. I know I am a sinner, and have repented
                  of my sin. I have not been to a sex club in 3 years. Praise God!

                  I gave up drinking alcohol 2 1/2 years ago...Praise Jesus, I am able to
                  reach alcoholics. Thank the Lord, I am compassionate to those who have been
                  victimized by homophobic Christians through ostricization. We all are
                  trying our best to reach out to homosexuals, that God is there for them as
                  well. Amen.

                  Last Sunday, I attended an Episcopal service. The Vicar is openly gay...and
                  so are some of the congregation. I love them like everybody else, in the
                  face of those Christians who are so self-righteous to judge them. I will
                  return this evening as I am helping the Episcopalians to provide
                  Thanksgiving Dinner boxes for the homeless in my town.

                  Edmund

                  Happy Thanksgiving, yall!

                  On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 8:27 PM, John Cliford <john_c_55@...> wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > Thank you Edmund,
                  >
                  > us Christians loose most of the gay world when we say,,,,,,,, come here and
                  > let us fix you,,,,,,, make you like us good Christians,,,,,,,, "then we will
                  > let you be a Christian".
                  >
                  > No wonder they have a disdain for all Christians,,,,,,,, they do not know
                  > any that will say,,,,,"you are a sinner, just like us",,,,,,,, lets us tell
                  > you about Jesus Christ's love and forgiveness.
                  >
                  > John
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------
                  > *From:* Thom Hunter <th2950@...>
                  > *To:* Jesus-is-our-victory@yahoogroups.com
                  > *Sent:* Sat, November 14, 2009 1:42:49 PM
                  >
                  > *Subject:* Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our-victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Edmund,
                  >
                  > We're not that far off. I believe there should be no condemnation. Even
                  > if you hold the belief that I do that participating in homosexual sex is a
                  > sin, it is just a sin . . . just like lying or coveting or gossiping or the
                  > more consequential ones like murder, etc. Jesus died to cover all the sins
                  > of those who accept Him and there is therefore no condemnation.
                  >
                  > I do not self-loathe. Indeed, I have learned to relinquish the shame and
                  > guilt that brings on self-loathing and turn it over to Christ. The point of
                  > my writing on the blog and in the series in The Baptist Messenger would be
                  > to bring about understanding in the hopes of reducing homophobia. I think
                  > you may be interpreting the things I write through a bias that may be the
                  > result of homophobia you have experienced from others. My theme is always
                  > grace, compassion, forgiveness, love and respect. Maybe you haven't
                  > actually read them?
                  >
                  > I'm with you, brother, not against you.
                  >
                  > Thom
                  > http://thom- signsofastruggle .blogspot. com/
                  >
                  > --- On *Sat, 11/14/09, edmund ortega <eortega42@gmail. com>* wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > From: edmund ortega <eortega42@gmail. com>
                  > Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                  > To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
                  >
                  > Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 3:26 PM
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Thom, I am simply saying that science has it's place here in the
                  > discussion of homosexuality. And there is nothing to show that homosexuals
                  > should be condemned by Christians or anyone else.
                  >
                  > When you self-loathe and have raised it to a level of a craft online, you
                  > are feeding into the homophobia that is out there in the world. However,
                  > "Greater is He that is in us, than He who is in the world."
                  >
                  > Again, I leave you with "Peace",
                  >
                  > Brother in Christ Jesus, Savior, and Awesome God,
                  > Edmund
                  >
                  >
                  > On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 12:30 PM, Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com> wrote:
                  >
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> Thank you Jeff. My desire is to live peaceably with all men. I only
                  >> responded because of the inaccuracies attributed to me. To not respond with
                  >> have given them validity and they might have been repeated further as being
                  >> representative of my views. As one in the ministry, that would be very
                  >> dangerous to overlook.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> --- On *Wed, 11/11/09, NewKnightRider <nmic28732@yahoo. com>* wrote:
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> From: NewKnightRider <nmic28732@yahoo. com>
                  >>
                  >> Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                  >> To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
                  >> Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 2:10 PM
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> John - Thom:
                  >> I love you both. I call you both to peace; In the Name of our Lord, Who
                  >> gave His all for us, I humbly and respectfully request that you both cease,
                  >> and do whatever you have to do to restore fellowship among yourselves.
                  >>
                  >> I CORINTHIANS 6:9-11
                  >> Know you not the the unrighteous shall not inherit the knigdom of God? Be
                  >> not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor
                  >> effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
                  >> Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners,
                  >> shall inherit the Kingdom of God.
                  >> And such WERE (past tense; denotes a condition that was once true but now
                  >> IS NOT)
                  >> some of you: but ye ARE washed, but ye ARE sanctified, but ye ARE
                  >> justified in the Name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> 2 CORINTHIANS 5:17
                  >> Therefore if ANY person be in Christ, he or she IS A NEW CREATION; old
                  >> things ARE PASSED AWAY; behold, ALL things ARE BECOME NEW.
                  >>
                  >> My identity and personhood comes from and is defined by MY LORD AND MY
                  >> GOD. When I was apart from God, and an unsaved, unredeemed man, it was, but
                  >> God reached down, and touched ME, and did ALL that He said He would do, and
                  >> now my identity and personhood is NOT NOW, NOR WILL EVER AGAIN be defined by
                  >> a sinful act or condition or behavior.
                  >>
                  >> We live in a fallen world. THAT'S GOD'S PERFECT PLAN. He KNOWS we still
                  >> live in a fallen world. Therefore, every person alive on the earth will
                  >> experience temptation. SO WHAT!!! I read Thom's entries, and in love,
                  >> John, I say that I have never understood Thom to say that being tempted is a
                  >> sin. IT IS NOT A SIN TO BE TEMPTED. If it were, our Lord and Savior would
                  >> be a sinner, and we would all be lost, because the Bible says that Jesus
                  >> Christ was tempted in all manner of sin, but He did not yield. Not once.
                  >> (Hebrews 4:15)
                  >>
                  >> BEING TEMPTED DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE ARE STILL HOMOSEXUAL.
                  >>
                  >> I choose to stand upon the inerrant Word of God that says I AM A NEW
                  >> CREATION, OLD THINGS IN MY LIFE ARE DEAD, AND ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW, AND
                  >> I AM ALIVE FOREVERMORE because of the Blood of the Lamb, my Lord and Savior,
                  >> Jesus Christ, and the love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, power, riches and
                  >> strength of God my Father.
                  >>
                  >> Thom - John: Put this down. Back away from the group for a season, and
                  >> be reconcilled to each other.
                  >>
                  >> I love you both.
                  >>
                  >> jeffnkr
                  >>
                  >> --- On *Wed, 11/11/09, Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com>* wrote:
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> From: Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com>
                  >> Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                  >> To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
                  >> Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 11:08 AM
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> John,
                  >>
                  >> You are deliberately misinterpreting my words . . . and I can't imagine
                  >> for what reason other than perhaps divisiveness.
                  >>
                  >> I have NEVER said that being a homosexual is a sin. For whatever reason,
                  >> many are oriented homosexually, as many are oriented heterosexually. I have
                  >> NEVER said that being tempted is a sin. You are presenting a falsehood that
                  >> is easily refuted by anyone who has read anything I have written or knows me
                  >> at all. I can't imagine what your purpose is other than to discredit a
                  >> fellow Christian.
                  >>
                  >> I have said that engaging in homosexual sex is a sin, but being tempted is
                  >> not. The Bible is clear and it is our authority there.
                  >>
                  >> For everyone, I will answer the question John put below and clear up his
                  >> intentional misrepresentation. Yes . . . a man can be homosexual and not
                  >> engage in prohibited behavior. It's called celibacy and some homosexuals
                  >> clearly believe it is God's calling on their lives.
                  >>
                  >> We are all sinners, John, unless you choose to set aside that part of the
                  >> Bible as well.
                  >>
                  >> Thom
                  >> http://thom-/ signsofastruggle .blogspot. com/
                  >>
                  >> --- On *Wed, 11/11/09, John Spooner. South Oz. <skunk16@bigpond. com>*wrote:
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> From: John Spooner. South Oz. <skunk16@bigpond. com>
                  >> Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                  >> To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
                  >> Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 9:56 AM
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> I agree. Edmund does address it well.
                  >>
                  >> Of course, I wonder - if one were to put the premise to Edmund that the
                  >> Bible does prohibit laying with a man AS with a woman (penetrative sex) -
                  >> and that we interpret that to mean ANAL SEX - would he agree that (that
                  >> specific) behavior could be interpreted as 'acting out'?
                  >>
                  >> This would not contradict what he has put forth, and it would also express
                  >> Thom's premise (of acting out) in the manner it SHOULD be expressed. Thom
                  >> condemns the BEING, instead of the DOING and that is where his argument has
                  >> flaws. A man can be homosexual, and never engage in prohibited sexual
                  >> behavior. Does Thom believe that man is still a sinner? I think he does.
                  >>
                  >> --- In Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com, edmund ortega <eortega42@.
                  >> ..> wrote:
                  >> >
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.