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Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our-victory] Homosexuals and Your Church

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  • Thom Hunter
    John, I m not sure what the purpose of your question might be. I don t think there s any confusion on what acting out would be for a homosexual.  It would
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 8, 2009
      John,

      I'm not sure what the purpose of your question might be. I don't think there's any confusion on what "acting out" would be for a homosexual.  It would be any sexual interaction with someone of the same sex.  And, since the only sexual activity sanctioned in God's Word is sexual activity between a man and a woman in a marital relationship, the Bible is very clear that "acting out" sexually as a homosexual is a sin.  I don't see any exceptions given to present same-sex sexual relationships as permissible.

      Do you disagree?

      Thom
      http://thom-signsofastruggle.blogspot.com/


      --- On Sun, 11/8/09, John Spooner <skunk16@...> wrote:

      From: John Spooner <skunk16@...>
      Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our-victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
      To: Jesus-is-our-victory@yahoogroups.com
      Cc: th2950@...
      Date: Sunday, November 8, 2009, 7:27 AM

       

      Dear Mr. ThomH.
      Would you clarify and explain to us in
      comprehensive detail what "sin of homosexual acting out" means.
      Regards.
      John S.

      ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: ThomH
      To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
      Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 2:25 AM
      Subject: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church


      __________________________________________________
      Do You Yahoo!?
      Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
      http://mail.yahoo.com
    • edmund ortega
      Thom, This is Edmund. Would like to comment on your usage of the behavioral term acting out . No behavioral scientist, or psychologist, would agree with
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 9, 2009
        Thom, This is Edmund.  Would like to comment on your usage of the behavioral term "acting out".   No behavioral scientist, or psychologist, would agree with your assersion that "acting out" IS homosexual.  Homosexuality is not a psychological disorder.  
        Now an unhealthy expression of one's sexuality, like promiscuity or cheating on one's spouse, is "acting out" behavior.
        As far as homosexuality being condemned by Jesus:  He simply does not condemn even the Sodomites in the Bible.  "More mercy shall be poured out on the Cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, than to the hypocrites."  There is mercy and sanctification through Jesus' meritous act of saving all who believe in Him that is God's Word, not your actions or activities, or lack thereof.
        God's Word speks of men having many wives...how many wives do you have?  You would be imprisioned for it like the Mormons livin' in them thar hills, eventually.
        To think of homosexuality or same sex attraction as a "condition" like many ignorant brothers think, they would have to say heterosexuality is a "condition" also like committing adultery for looking at a member of the opposite sex which would mean stoning.  
        Thom, you sound like the Pres. of Iran who says to the world, "Oh, there are no homosexuals in Iran."  Then, does not stop the stoning and beheading and hanging of homosexuals that are found out, along with all Christians the same who speak against ignorance or their religious bent.  Twisted.
        "Acting out" can refer to acts of hostility against others in word, indeed.  "For there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."
        Peace of Christ be with you,
        Living in the Blessing of His Word, 
        Edmund 

        On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Thom Hunter <th2950@...> wrote:
         

        John,

        I'm not sure what the purpose of your question might be. I don't think there's any confusion on what "acting out" would be for a homosexual.  It would be any sexual interaction with someone of the same sex.  And, since the only sexual activity sanctioned in God's Word is sexual activity between a man and a woman in a marital relationship, the Bible is very clear that "acting out" sexually as a homosexual is a sin.  I don't see any exceptions given to present same-sex sexual relationships as permissible.

        Do you disagree?

        Thom
        http://thom-signsofastruggle.blogspot.com/


        --- On Sun, 11/8/09, John Spooner <skunk16@...> wrote:

        From: John Spooner <skunk16@...>
        Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our-victory] Homosexuals and Your ChurchCc: th2950@...
        Date: Sunday, November 8, 2009, 7:27 AM

         

        Dear Mr. ThomH.
        Would you clarify and explain to us in
        comprehensive detail what "sin of homosexual acting out" means.
        Regards.
        John S.

        ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: ThomH
        To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
        Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 2:25 AM
        Subject: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church


        __________________________________________________
        Do You Yahoo!?
        Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
        http://mail.yahoo.com

      • Thom Hunter
        Edmund, You re playing word games and being extremely insensitive comparing my remarks to the words of the president of Iran.  I happen to have struggled with
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 9, 2009
          Edmund,

          You're playing word games and being extremely insensitive comparing my remarks to the words of the president of Iran.  I happen to have struggled with homosexuality my entire adult life, yet you -- with little knowledge of me or my personal life -- make a hostile claim.  It reflects ignorance on your part and lends almost no validity to the other things you say.

          You know as well as I do that my use of "acting out," refers to my belief, based on extremely clear passages in the Bible, that men are not to have sex with men and women are not to have sex with women.

          Homosexuality is an orientation, just as heterosexuality is an orientation.  Reasons for it differ.  It is not a sin to be oriented in such a way and I do not live in shame because I am.  However, I can't twist the words of the Bible to justify homosexuality . . . . whatever you want to call it.  Sex.  Oral or anal activity with someone of the same sex.  It's prohibited.

          Jesus indeed showed mercy and we are to do the same.  He showed mercy to the adulteress, but we don't point to that to justify adultery.  God showed mercy on Sodom and Gomorrah because of Lot's actions, not because He was condoning sodomy.  You are saying things that make you feel better but offer no hope at all to the man or woman who wants to glorify God by living according to His creative design.

          I agree with you that there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus.  That is because He died and bore the burden of all our sins . . . not because He is saying it is fine to live a sinful life.  You're twisting it and watering down the Gospel for personal justification.  Considering the price Christ paid for my sins, I choose not to flaunt them, but to fight them.

          I do not call for the punishment of anyone for homosexual behavior.  Indeed, that is very twisted and fills me with sorrow.  If a Christian chooses homosexuality, I would still love him or her as my brother or sister.  None of us get everything right in this lifetime.  That's why we have a Savior. 

          Thom
          http://thom-signsofastruggle.blogspot.com/

          --- On Mon, 11/9/09, edmund ortega <eortega42@...> wrote:

          From: edmund ortega <eortega42@...>
          Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our-victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
          To: Jesus-is-our-victory@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 7:03 PM

           

          Thom, This is Edmund.  Would like to comment on your usage of the behavioral term "acting out".   No behavioral scientist, or psychologist, would agree with your assersion that "acting out" IS homosexual.  Homosexu ality is not a psychological disorder.  
          Now an unhealthy expression of one's sexuality, like promiscuity or cheating on one's spouse, is "acting out" behavior.
          As far as homosexuality being condemned by Jesus:  He simply does not condemn even the Sodomites in the Bible.  "More mercy shall be poured out on the Cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, than to the hypocrites."  There is mercy and sanctification through Jesus' meritous act of saving all who believe in Him that is God's Word, not your actions or activities, or lack thereof.
          God's Word speks of men having many wives...how many wives do you have?  You would be imprisioned for it like the Mormons livin' in them thar hills, eventually.
          To think of homosexuality or same sex attraction as a "condition" like many ignorant brothers think, they would have to say heterosexuality  is a "condition" also like committing adultery for looking at a member of the opposite sex which would mean stoning.  
          Thom, you sound like the Pres. of Iran who says to the world, "Oh, there are no homosexuals in Iran."  Then, does not stop the stoning and beheading and hanging of homosexuals that are found out, along with all Christians the same who speak against ignorance or their religious bent.  Twisted.
          "Acting out" can refer to acts of hostility against others in word, indeed.  "For there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."
          Peace of Christ be with you,
          Living in the Blessing of His Word, 
          Edmund 

          On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com> wrote:
           

          John,

          I'm not sure what the purpose of your question might be. I don't think there's any confusion on what "acting out" would be for a homosexual.  It would be any sexual interaction with someone of the same sex.  And, since the only sexual activity sanctioned in God's Word is sexual activity between a man and a woman in a marital relationship, the Bible is very clear that "acting out" sexually as a homosexual is a sin.  I don't see any exceptions given to present same-sex sexual relationships as permissible.

          Do you disagree?

          Thom
          http://thom- signsofastruggle .blogspot. com/


          --- On Sun, 11/8/09, John Spooner <skunk16@bigpond. com> wrote:

          From: John Spooner <skunk16@bigpond. com>
          Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your ChurchCc: th2950@grouply. com
          Date: Sunday, November 8, 2009, 7:27 AM

           

          Dear Mr. ThomH.
          Would you clarify and explain to us in
          comprehensive detail what "sin of homosexual acting out" means.
          Regards.
          John S.

          ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: ThomH
          To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
          Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 2:25 AM
          Subject: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church


          ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
          Do You Yahoo!?
          Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
          http://mail. yahoo.com



        • John Spooner. South Oz.
          I agree. Edmund does address it well. Of course, I wonder - if one were to put the premise to Edmund that the Bible does prohibit laying with a man AS with a
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 11, 2009
            I agree. Edmund does address it well.

            Of course, I wonder - if one were to put the premise to Edmund that the Bible does prohibit laying with a man AS with a woman (penetrative sex) - and that we interpret that to mean ANAL SEX - would he agree that (that specific) behavior could be interpreted as 'acting out'?

            This would not contradict what he has put forth, and it would also express Thom's premise (of acting out) in the manner it SHOULD be expressed. Thom condemns the BEING, instead of the DOING and that is where his argument has flaws. A man can be homosexual, and never engage in prohibited sexual behavior. Does Thom believe that man is still a sinner? I think he does.





            --- In Jesus-is-our-victory@yahoogroups.com, edmund ortega <eortega42@...> wrote:
            >
          • Thom Hunter
            John, You are deliberately misinterpreting my words . . . and I can t imagine for what reason other than perhaps divisiveness. I have NEVER said that being a
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 11, 2009
              John,

              You are deliberately misinterpreting my words . . . and I can't imagine for what reason other than perhaps divisiveness.

              I have NEVER said that being a homosexual is a sin.  For whatever reason, many are oriented homosexually, as many are oriented heterosexually.  I have NEVER said that being tempted is a sin.  You are presenting a falsehood that is easily refuted by anyone who has read anything I have written or knows me at all.  I can't imagine what your purpose is other than to discredit a fellow Christian.

              I have said that engaging in homosexual sex is a sin, but being tempted is not.  The Bible is clear and it is our authority there.

              For everyone, I will answer the question John put below and clear up his intentional misrepresentation.  Yes . . . a man can be homosexual and not engage in prohibited behavior.  It's called celibacy and some homosexuals clearly believe it is God's calling on their lives.

              We are all sinners, John, unless you choose to set aside that part of the Bible as well.

              Thom
              http://thom-signsofastruggle.blogspot.com/

              --- On Wed, 11/11/09, John Spooner. South Oz. <skunk16@...> wrote:

              From: John Spooner. South Oz. <skunk16@...>
              Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our-victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
              To: Jesus-is-our-victory@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 9:56 AM

               

              I agree. Edmund does address it well.

              Of course, I wonder - if one were to put the premise to Edmund that the Bible does prohibit laying with a man AS with a woman (penetrative sex) - and that we interpret that to mean ANAL SEX - would he agree that (that specific) behavior could be interpreted as 'acting out'?

              This would not contradict what he has put forth, and it would also express Thom's premise (of acting out) in the manner it SHOULD be expressed. Thom condemns the BEING, instead of the DOING and that is where his argument has flaws. A man can be homosexual, and never engage in prohibited sexual behavior. Does Thom believe that man is still a sinner? I think he does.

              --- In Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com, edmund ortega <eortega42@. ..> wrote:
              >


            • NewKnightRider
              John - Thom:  I love you both.  I call you both to peace; In the Name of our Lord, Who gave His all for us, I humbly and respectfully request that you both
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 11, 2009
                John - Thom: 
                I love you both.  I call you both to peace; In the Name of our Lord, Who gave His all for us, I humbly and respectfully request that you both cease, and do whatever you have to do to restore fellowship among yourselves.
                 
                I CORINTHIANS 6:9-11
                Know you not the the unrighteous shall not inherit the knigdom of God?  Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
                Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the Kingdom of God.
                And such WERE (past tense; denotes a condition that was once true but now IS NOT)
                some of you: but ye ARE washed, but ye ARE sanctified, but ye ARE justified in the Name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
                 
                 
                2 CORINTHIANS 5:17
                Therefore if ANY person be in Christ, he or she IS A NEW CREATION; old things ARE PASSED AWAY; behold, ALL things ARE BECOME NEW.
                 
                My identity and personhood comes from and is defined by MY LORD AND MY GOD.  When I was apart from God, and an unsaved, unredeemed man, it was, but God reached down, and touched ME, and did ALL that He said He would do, and now my identity and personhood is NOT NOW, NOR WILL EVER AGAIN be defined by a sinful act or condition or behavior.
                 
                We live in a fallen world.  THAT'S GOD'S PERFECT PLAN. He KNOWS we still live in a fallen world.  Therefore, every person alive on the earth will experience temptation.  SO WHAT!!!  I read Thom's entries, and in love, John, I say that I have never understood Thom to say that being tempted is a sin.  IT IS NOT A SIN TO BE TEMPTED.  If it were, our Lord and Savior would be a sinner, and we would all be lost, because the Bible says that Jesus Christ was tempted in all manner of sin, but He did not yield.  Not once. (Hebrews 4:15)
                 
                BEING TEMPTED DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE ARE STILL HOMOSEXUAL.
                 
                I choose to stand upon the inerrant Word of God that says I AM A NEW CREATION, OLD THINGS IN MY LIFE ARE DEAD, AND ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW, AND I AM ALIVE FOREVERMORE because of the Blood of the Lamb, my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and the love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, power, riches and strength of God my Father. 
                 
                Thom - John:  Put this down.  Back away from the group for a season, and be reconcilled to each other.     
                 
                I love you both. 
                 
                jeffnkr

                --- On Wed, 11/11/09, Thom Hunter <th2950@...> wrote:

                From: Thom Hunter <th2950@...>
                Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our-victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                To: Jesus-is-our-victory@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 11:08 AM

                 
                John,

                You are deliberately misinterpreting my words . . . and I can't imagine for what reason other than perhaps divisiveness.

                I have NEVER said that being a homosexual is a sin.  For whatever reason, many are oriented homosexually, as many are oriented heterosexually.  I have NEVER said that being tempted is a sin.  You are presenting a falsehood that is easily refuted by anyone who has read anything I have written or knows me at all.  I can't imagine what your purpose is other than to discredit a fellow Christian.

                I have said that engaging in homosexual sex is a sin, but being tempted is not.  The Bible is clear and it is our authority there.

                For everyone, I will answer the question John put below and clear up his intentional misrepresentation.  Yes . . . a man can be homosexual and not engage in prohibited behavior.  It's called celibacy and some homosexuals clearly believe it is God's calling on their lives.

                We are all sinners, John, unless you choose to set aside that part of the Bible as well.

                Thom
                http://thom- signsofastruggle .blogspot. com/

                --- On Wed, 11/11/09, John Spooner. South Oz. <skunk16@bigpond. com> wrote:

                From: John Spooner. South Oz. <skunk16@bigpond. com>
                Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
                Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 9:56 AM

                 
                I agree. Edmund does address it well.

                Of course, I wonder - if one were to put the premise to Edmund that the Bible does prohibit laying with a man AS with a woman (penetrative sex) - and that we interpret that to mean ANAL SEX - would he agree that (that specific) behavior could be interpreted as 'acting out'?

                This would not contradict what he has put forth, and it would also express Thom's premise (of acting out) in the manner it SHOULD be expressed. Thom condemns the BEING, instead of the DOING and that is where his argument has flaws. A man can be homosexual, and never engage in prohibited sexual behavior. Does Thom believe that man is still a sinner? I think he does.

                --- In Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com, edmund ortega <eortega42@. ..> wrote:
                >


              • NewKnightRider
                Therefore I am NOT NOW NOR WILL I EVER AGAIN BE a homosexual.  I refuse to even accept the label, EX-homosexual, though I do admit that that COULD have some
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 11, 2009
                  Therefore I am NOT NOW NOR WILL I EVER AGAIN BE a homosexual.  I refuse to even accept the label, EX-homosexual, though I do admit that that COULD have some merit.
                   
                  I AM A MAN OF GOD, WASHED IN AND REDEEMED BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB.
                  I AM SEALED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE.  (Ephesians 1:7)
                   
                  ISAIAH 43:25
                  I, even I am He that BLOTS OUT thy transgressions, and WILL NOT REMEMBER  thy sins.
                   
                  Love you all!
                  jeffnkr

                  --- On Wed, 11/11/09, NewKnightRider <nmic28732@...> wrote:

                  From: NewKnightRider <nmic28732@...>
                  Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our-victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                  To: Jesus-is-our-victory@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 3:10 PM

                   
                  John - Thom: 
                  I love you both.  I call you both to peace; In the Name of our Lord, Who gave His all for us, I humbly and respectfully request that you both cease, and do whatever you have to do to restore fellowship among yourselves.
                   
                  I CORINTHIANS 6:9-11
                  Know you not the the unrighteous shall not inherit the knigdom of God?  Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
                  Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the Kingdom of God.
                  And such WERE (past tense; denotes a condition that was once true but now IS NOT)
                  some of you: but ye ARE washed, but ye ARE sanctified, but ye ARE justified in the Name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
                   
                   
                  2 CORINTHIANS 5:17
                  Therefore if ANY person be in Christ, he or she IS A NEW CREATION; old things ARE PASSED AWAY; behold, ALL things ARE BECOME NEW.
                   
                  My identity and personhood comes from and is defined by MY LORD AND MY GOD.  When I was apart from God, and an unsaved, unredeemed man, it was, but God reached down, and touched ME, and did ALL that He said He would do, and now my identity and personhood is NOT NOW, NOR WILL EVER AGAIN be defined by a sinful act or condition or behavior.
                   
                  We live in a fallen world.  THAT'S GOD'S PERFECT PLAN. He KNOWS we still live in a fallen world.  Therefore, every person alive on the earth will experience temptation.  SO WHAT!!!  I read Thom's entries, and in love, John, I say that I have never understood Thom to say that being tempted is a sin.  IT IS NOT A SIN TO BE TEMPTED.  If it were, our Lord and Savior would be a sinner, and we would all be lost, because the Bible says that Jesus Christ was tempted in all manner of sin, but He did not yield.  Not once. (Hebrews 4:15)
                   
                  BEING TEMPTED DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE ARE STILL HOMOSEXUAL.
                   
                  I choose to stand upon the inerrant Word of God that says I AM A NEW CREATION, OLD THINGS IN MY LIFE ARE DEAD, AND ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW, AND I AM ALIVE FOREVERMORE because of the Blood of the Lamb, my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and the love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, power, riches and strength of God my Father. 
                   
                  Thom - John:  Put this down.  Back away from the group for a season, and be reconcilled to each other.     
                   
                  I love you both. 
                   
                  jeffnkr

                  --- On Wed, 11/11/09, Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com> wrote:

                  From: Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com>
                  Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                  To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
                  Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 11:08 AM

                   
                  John,

                  You are deliberately misinterpreting my words . . . and I can't imagine for what reason other than perhaps divisiveness.

                  I have NEVER said that being a homosexual is a sin.  For whatever reason, many are oriented homosexually, as many are oriented heterosexually.  I have NEVER said that being tempted is a sin.  You are presenting a falsehood that is easily refuted by anyone who has read anything I have written or knows me at all.  I can't imagine what your purpose is other than to discredit a fellow Christian.

                  I have said that engaging in homosexual sex is a sin, but being tempted is not.  The Bible is clear and it is our authority there.

                  For everyone, I will answer the question John put below and clear up his intentional misrepresentation.  Yes . . . a man can be homosexual and not engage in prohibited behavior.  It's called celibacy and some homosexuals clearly believe it is God's calling on their lives.

                  We are all sinners, John, unless you choose to set aside that part of the Bible as well.

                  Thom
                  http://thom- signsofastruggle .blogspot. com/

                  --- On Wed, 11/11/09, John Spooner. South Oz. <skunk16@bigpond. com> wrote:

                  From: John Spooner. South Oz. <skunk16@bigpond. com>
                  Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                  To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
                  Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 9:56 AM

                   
                  I agree. Edmund does address it well.

                  Of course, I wonder - if one were to put the premise to Edmund that the Bible does prohibit laying with a man AS with a woman (penetrative sex) - and that we interpret that to mean ANAL SEX - would he agree that (that specific) behavior could be interpreted as 'acting out'?

                  This would not contradict what he has put forth, and it would also express Thom's premise (of acting out) in the manner it SHOULD be expressed. Thom condemns the BEING, instead of the DOING and that is where his argument has flaws. A man can be homosexual, and never engage in prohibited sexual behavior. Does Thom believe that man is still a sinner? I think he does.

                  --- In Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com, edmund ortega <eortega42@. ..> wrote:
                  >


                • Thom Hunter
                  Thank you Jeff.  My desire is to live peaceably with all men.  I only responded because of the inaccuracies attributed to me.  To not respond with have
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 11, 2009
                    Thank you Jeff.  My desire is to live peaceably with all men.  I only responded because of the inaccuracies attributed to me.  To not respond with have given them validity and they might have been repeated further as being representative of my views.  As one in the ministry, that would be very dangerous to overlook.

                    --- On Wed, 11/11/09, NewKnightRider <nmic28732@...> wrote:

                    From: NewKnightRider <nmic28732@...>
                    Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our-victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                    To: Jesus-is-our-victory@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 2:10 PM

                     

                    John - Thom: 
                    I love you both.  I call you both to peace; In the Name of our Lord, Who gave His all for us, I humbly and respectfully request that you both cease, and do whatever you have to do to restore fellowship among yourselves.
                     
                    I CORINTHIANS 6:9-11
                    Know you not the the unrighteous shall not inherit the knigdom of God?  Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
                    Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the Kingdom of God.
                    And such WERE (past tense; denotes a condition that was once true but now IS NOT)
                    some of you: but ye ARE washed, but ye ARE sanctified, but ye ARE justified in the Name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
                     
                     
                    2 CORINTHIANS 5:17
                    Therefore if ANY person be in Christ, he or she IS A NEW CREATION; old things ARE PASSED AWAY; behold, ALL things ARE BECOME NEW.
                     
                    My identity and personhood comes from and is defined by MY LORD AND MY GOD.  When I was apart from God, and an unsaved, unredeemed man, it was, but God reached down, and touched ME, and did ALL that He said He would do, and now my identity and personhood is NOT NOW, NOR WILL EVER AGAIN be defined by a sinful act or condition or behavior.
                     
                    We live in a fallen world.  THAT'S GOD'S PERFECT PLAN. He KNOWS we still live in a fallen world.  Therefore, every person alive on the earth will experience temptation.  SO WHAT!!!  I read Thom's entries, and in love, John, I say that I have never understood Thom to say that being tempted is a sin.  IT IS NOT A SIN TO BE TEMPTED.  If it were, our Lord and Savior would be a sinner, and we would all be lost, because the Bible says that Jesus Christ was tempted in all manner of sin, but He did not yield.  Not once. (Hebrews 4:15)
                     
                    BEING TEMPTED DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE ARE STILL HOMOSEXUAL.
                     
                    I choose to stand upon the inerrant Word of God that says I AM A NEW CREATION, OLD THINGS IN MY LIFE ARE DEAD, AND ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW, AND I AM ALIVE FOREVERMORE because of the Blood of the Lamb, my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and the love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, power, riches and strength of God my Father. 
                     
                    Thom - John:  Put this down.  Back away from the group for a season, and be reconcilled to each other.     
                     
                    I love you both. 
                     
                    jeffnkr

                    --- On Wed, 11/11/09, Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com> wrote:

                    From: Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com>
                    Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                    To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
                    Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 11:08 AM

                     
                    John,

                    You are deliberately misinterpreting my words . . . and I can't imagine for what reason other than perhaps divisiveness.

                    I have NEVER said that being a homosexual is a sin.  For whatever reason, many are oriented homosexually, as many are oriented heterosexually.  I have NEVER said that being tempted is a sin.  You are presenting a falsehood that is easily refuted by anyone who has read anything I have written or knows me at all.  I can't imagine what your purpose is other than to discredit a fellow Christian.

                    I have said that engaging in homosexual sex is a sin, but being tempted is not.  The Bible is clear and it is our authority there.

                    For everyone, I will answer the question John put below and clear up his intentional misrepresentation.  Yes . . . a man can be homosexual and not engage in prohibited behavior.  It's called celibacy and some homosexuals clearly believe it is God's calling on their lives.

                    We are all sinners, John, unless you choose to set aside that part of the Bible as well.

                    Thom
                    http://thom- signsofastruggle .blogspot. com/

                    --- On Wed, 11/11/09, John Spooner. South Oz. <skunk16@bigpond. com> wrote:

                    From: John Spooner. South Oz. <skunk16@bigpond. com>
                    Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                    To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
                    Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 9:56 AM

                     
                    I agree. Edmund does address it well.

                    Of course, I wonder - if one were to put the premise to Edmund that the Bible does prohibit laying with a man AS with a woman (penetrative sex) - and that we interpret that to mean ANAL SEX - would he agree that (that specific) behavior could be interpreted as 'acting out'?

                    This would not contradict what he has put forth, and it would also express Thom's premise (of acting out) in the manner it SHOULD be expressed. Thom condemns the BEING, instead of the DOING and that is where his argument has flaws. A man can be homosexual, and never engage in prohibited sexual behavior. Does Thom believe that man is still a sinner? I think he does.

                    --- In Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com, edmund ortega <eortega42@. ..> wrote:
                    >



                  • edmund ortega
                    Thom, I am simply saying that science has it s place here in the discussion of homosexuality. And there is nothing to show that homosexuals should be
                    Message 9 of 14 , Nov 14, 2009
                      Thom,  I am simply saying that science has it's place here in the discussion of homosexuality.  And there is nothing to show that homosexuals should be condemned by Christians or anyone else.
                       
                      When you self-loathe and have raised it to a level of a craft online, you are feeding into the homophobia that is out there in the world.  However, "Greater is He that is in us, than He who is in the world."
                       
                      Again, I leave you with "Peace",
                       
                      Brother in Christ Jesus, Savior, and Awesome God,
                      Edmund

                       
                      On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 12:30 PM, Thom Hunter <th2950@...> wrote:
                       

                      Thank you Jeff.  My desire is to live peaceably with all men.  I only responded because of the inaccuracies attributed to me.  To not respond with have given them validity and they might have been repeated further as being representative of my views.  As one in the ministry, that would be very dangerous to overlook.


                      --- On Wed, 11/11/09, NewKnightRider <nmic28732@...> wrote:

                      From: NewKnightRider <nmic28732@...>

                      Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our-victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                      To: Jesus-is-our-victory@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 2:10 PM

                       

                      John - Thom: 
                      I love you both.  I call you both to peace; In the Name of our Lord, Who gave His all for us, I humbly and respectfully request that you both cease, and do whatever you have to do to restore fellowship among yourselves.
                       
                      I CORINTHIANS 6:9-11
                      Know you not the the unrighteous shall not inherit the knigdom of God?  Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
                      Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the Kingdom of God.
                      And such WERE (past tense; denotes a condition that was once true but now IS NOT)
                      some of you: but ye ARE washed, but ye ARE sanctified, but ye ARE justified in the Name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
                       
                       
                      2 CORINTHIANS 5:17
                      Therefore if ANY person be in Christ, he or she IS A NEW CREATION; old things ARE PASSED AWAY; behold, ALL things ARE BECOME NEW.
                       
                      My identity and personhood comes from and is defined by MY LORD AND MY GOD.  When I was apart from God, and an unsaved, unredeemed man, it was, but God reached down, and touched ME, and did ALL that He said He would do, and now my identity and personhood is NOT NOW, NOR WILL EVER AGAIN be defined by a sinful act or condition or behavior.
                       
                      We live in a fallen world.  THAT'S GOD'S PERFECT PLAN. He KNOWS we still live in a fallen world.  Therefore, every person alive on the earth will experience temptation.  SO WHAT!!!  I read Thom's entries, and in love, John, I say that I have never understood Thom to say that being tempted is a sin.  IT IS NOT A SIN TO BE TEMPTED.  If it were, our Lord and Savior would be a sinner, and we would all be lost, because the Bible says that Jesus Christ was tempted in all manner of sin, but He did not yield.  Not once. (Hebrews 4:15)
                       
                      BEING TEMPTED DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE ARE STILL HOMOSEXUAL.
                       
                      I choose to stand upon the inerrant Word of God that says I AM A NEW CREATION, OLD THINGS IN MY LIFE ARE DEAD, AND ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW, AND I AM ALIVE FOREVERMORE because of the Blood of the Lamb, my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and the love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, power, riches and strength of God my Father. 
                       
                      Thom - John:  Put this down.  Back away from the group for a season, and be reconcilled to each other.     
                       
                      I love you both. 
                       
                      jeffnkr

                      --- On Wed, 11/11/09, Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com> wrote:

                      From: Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com>
                      Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                      To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
                      Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 11:08 AM

                       
                      John,

                      You are deliberately misinterpreting my words . . . and I can't imagine for what reason other than perhaps divisiveness.

                      I have NEVER said that being a homosexual is a sin.  For whatever reason, many are oriented homosexually, as many are oriented heterosexually.  I have NEVER said that being tempted is a sin.  You are presenting a falsehood that is easily refuted by anyone who has read anything I have written or knows me at all.  I can't imagine what your purpose is other than to discredit a fellow Christian.

                      I have said that engaging in homosexual sex is a sin, but being tempted is not.  The Bible is clear and it is our authority there.

                      For everyone, I will answer the question John put below and clear up his intentional misrepresentation.  Yes . . . a man can be homosexual and not engage in prohibited behavior.  It's called celibacy and some homosexuals clearly believe it is God's calling on their lives.

                      We are all sinners, John, unless you choose to set aside that part of the Bible as well.

                      Thom
                      http://thom- signsofastruggle .blogspot. com/

                      --- On Wed, 11/11/09, John Spooner. South Oz. <skunk16@bigpond. com> wrote:

                      From: John Spooner. South Oz. <skunk16@bigpond. com>
                      Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                      To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
                      Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 9:56 AM

                       
                      I agree. Edmund does address it well.

                      Of course, I wonder - if one were to put the premise to Edmund that the Bible does prohibit laying with a man AS with a woman (penetrative sex) - and that we interpret that to mean ANAL SEX - would he agree that (that specific) behavior could be interpreted as 'acting out'?

                      This would not contradict what he has put forth, and it would also express Thom's premise (of acting out) in the manner it SHOULD be expressed. Thom condemns the BEING, instead of the DOING and that is where his argument has flaws. A man can be homosexual, and never engage in prohibited sexual behavior. Does Thom believe that man is still a sinner? I think he does.

                      --- In Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com, edmund ortega <eortega42@. ..> wrote:
                      >




                    • Thom Hunter
                      Edmund, We re not that far off.  I believe there should be no condemnation.  Even if you hold the belief that I do that participating in homosexual sex is a
                      Message 10 of 14 , Nov 14, 2009
                        Edmund,

                        We're not that far off.  I believe there should be no condemnation.  Even if you hold the belief that I do that participating in homosexual sex is a sin, it is just a sin . . . just like lying or coveting or gossiping or the more consequential ones like murder, etc.  Jesus died to cover all the sins of those who accept Him and there is therefore no condemnation.

                        I do not self-loathe.  Indeed, I have learned to relinquish the shame and guilt that brings on self-loathing and turn it over to Christ.  The point of my writing on the blog and in the series in The Baptist Messenger would be to bring about understanding in the hopes of reducing homophobia.  I think you may be interpreting the things I write through a bias that may be the result of homophobia you have experienced from others.  My theme is always grace, compassion, forgiveness, love and respect.  Maybe you haven't actually read them?

                        I'm with you, brother, not against you.

                        Thom
                        http://thom-signsofastruggle.blogspot.com/

                        --- On Sat, 11/14/09, edmund ortega <eortega42@...> wrote:

                        From: edmund ortega <eortega42@...>
                        Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our-victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                        To: Jesus-is-our-victory@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 3:26 PM

                         

                        Thom,  I am simply saying that science has it's place here in the discussion of homosexuality.  And there is nothing to show that homosexuals should be condemned by Christians or anyone else.
                         
                        When you self-loathe and have raised it to a level of a craft online, you are feeding into the homophobia that is out there in the world.  However, "Greater is He that is in us, than He who is in the world."
                         
                        Again, I leave you with "Peace",
                         
                        Brother in Christ Jesus, Savior, and Awesome God,
                        Edmund

                         
                        On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 12:30 PM, Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com> wrote:
                         

                        Thank you Jeff.  My desire is to live peaceably with all men.  I only responded because of the inaccuracies attributed to me.  To not respond with have given them validity and they might have been repeated further as being representative of my views.  As one in the ministry, that would be very dangerous to overlook.


                        --- On Wed, 11/11/09, NewKnightRider <nmic28732@yahoo. com> wrote:

                        From: NewKnightRider <nmic28732@yahoo. com>

                        Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                        To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
                        Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 2:10 PM

                         

                        John - Thom: 
                        I love you both.  I call you both to peace; In the Name of our Lord, Who gave His all for us, I humbly and respectfully request that you both cease, and do whatever you have to do to restore fellowship among yourselves.
                         
                        I CORINTHIANS 6:9-11
                        Know you not the the unrighteous shall not inherit the knigdom of God?  Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
                        Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the Kingdom of God.
                        And such WERE (past tense; denotes a condition that was once true but now IS NOT)
                        some of you: but ye ARE washed, but ye ARE sanctified, but ye ARE justified in the Name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
                         
                         
                        2 CORINTHIANS 5:17
                        Therefore if ANY person be in Christ, he or she IS A NEW CREATION; old things ARE PASSED AWAY; behold, ALL things ARE BECOME NEW.
                         
                        My identity and personhood comes from and is defined by MY LORD AND MY GOD.  When I was apart from God, and an unsaved, unredeemed man, it was, but God reached down, and touched ME, and did ALL that He said He would do, and now my identity and personhood is NOT NOW, NOR WILL EVER AGAIN be defined by a sinful act or condition or behavior.
                         
                        We live in a fallen world.  THAT'S GOD'S PERFECT PLAN. He KNOWS we still live in a fallen world.  Therefore, every person alive on the earth will experience temptation.  SO WHAT!!!  I read Thom's entries, and in love, John, I say that I have never understood Thom to say that being tempted is a sin.  IT IS NOT A SIN TO BE TEMPTED.  If it were, our Lord and Savior would be a sinner, and we would all be lost, because the Bible says that Jesus Christ was tempted in all manner of sin, but He did not yield.  Not once. (Hebrews 4:15)
                         
                        BEING TEMPTED DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE ARE STILL HOMOSEXUAL.
                         
                        I choose to stand upon the inerrant Word of God that says I AM A NEW CREATION, OLD THINGS IN MY LIFE ARE DEAD, AND ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW, AND I AM ALIVE FOREVERMORE because of the Blood of the Lamb, my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and the love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, power, riches and strength of God my Father. 
                         
                        Thom - John:  Put this down.  Back away from the group for a season, and be reconcilled to each other.     
                         
                        I love you both. 
                         
                        jeffnkr

                        --- On Wed, 11/11/09, Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com> wrote:

                        From: Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com>
                        Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                        To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
                        Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 11:08 AM

                         
                        John,

                        You are deliberately misinterpreting my words . . . and I can't imagine for what reason other than perhaps divisiveness.

                        I have NEVER said that being a homosexual is a sin.  For whatever reason, many are oriented homosexually, as many are oriented heterosexually.  I have NEVER said that being tempted is a sin.  You are presenting a falsehood that is easily refuted by anyone who has read anything I have written or knows me at all.  I can't imagine what your purpose is other than to discredit a fellow Christian.

                        I have said that engaging in homosexual sex is a sin, but being tempted is not.  The Bible is clear and it is our authority there.

                        For everyone, I will answer the question John put below and clear up his intentional misrepresentation.  Yes . . . a man can be homosexual and not engage in prohibited behavior.  It's called celibacy and some homosexuals clearly believe it is God's calling on their lives.

                        We are all sinners, John, unless you choose to set aside that part of the Bible as well.

                        Thom
                        http://thom- signsofastruggle .blogspot. com/

                        --- On Wed, 11/11/09, John Spooner. South Oz. <skunk16@bigpond. com> wrote:

                        From: John Spooner. South Oz. <skunk16@bigpond. com>
                        Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                        To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
                        Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 9:56 AM

                         
                        I agree. Edmund does address it well.

                        Of course, I wonder - if one were to put the premise to Edmund that the Bible does prohibit laying with a man AS with a woman (penetrative sex) - and that we interpret that to mean ANAL SEX - would he agree that (that specific) behavior could be interpreted as 'acting out'?

                        This would not contradict what he has put forth, and it would also express Thom's premise (of acting out) in the manner it SHOULD be expressed. Thom condemns the BEING, instead of the DOING and that is where his argument has flaws. A man can be homosexual, and never engage in prohibited sexual behavior. Does Thom believe that man is still a sinner? I think he does.

                        --- In Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com, edmund ortega <eortega42@. ..> wrote:
                        >





                      • John Cliford
                        Thank you Edmund, us Christians loose most of the gay world when we say,,,,,,,, come here and let us fix you,,,,,,, make you like us good Christians,,,,,,,,
                        Message 11 of 14 , Nov 14, 2009
                          Thank you Edmund,

                          us Christians loose most of the gay world when we say,,,,,,,, come here and let us fix you,,,,,,, make you like us good Christians,,,,,,,, "then we will let you be a Christian".

                          No wonder they have a disdain for all Christians,,,,,,,, they do not know any that will say,,,,,"you are a sinner, just like us",,,,,,,, lets us tell you about Jesus Christ's love and forgiveness.

                          John






                          From: Thom Hunter <th2950@...>
                          To: Jesus-is-our-victory@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Sat, November 14, 2009 1:42:49 PM
                          Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our-victory] Homosexuals and Your Church

                           

                          Edmund,

                          We're not that far off.  I believe there should be no condemnation.  Even if you hold the belief that I do that participating in homosexual sex is a sin, it is just a sin . . . just like lying or coveting or gossiping or the more consequential ones like murder, etc.  Jesus died to cover all the sins of those who accept Him and there is therefore no condemnation.

                          I do not self-loathe.  Indeed, I have learned to relinquish the shame and guilt that brings on self-loathing and turn it over to Christ.  The point of my writing on the blog and in the series in The Baptist Messenger would be to bring about understanding in the hopes of reducing homophobia.  I think you may be interpreting the things I write through a bias that may be the result of homophobia you have experienced from others.  My theme is always grace, compassion, forgiveness, love and respect.  Maybe you haven't actually read them?

                          I'm with you, brother, not against you.

                          Thom
                          http://thom- signsofastruggle .blogspot. com/

                          --- On Sat, 11/14/09, edmund ortega <eortega42@gmail. com> wrote:

                          From: edmund ortega <eortega42@gmail. com>
                          Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                          To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
                          Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 3:26 PM

                           

                          Thom,  I am simply saying that science has it's place here in the discussion of homosexuality.  And there is nothing to show that homosexuals should be condemned by Christians or anyone else.
                           
                          When you self-loathe and have raised it to a level of a craft online, you are feeding into the homophobia that is out there in the world.  However, "Greater is He that is in us, than He who is in the world."
                           
                          Again, I leave you with "Peace",
                           
                          Brother in Christ Jesus, Savior, and Awesome God,
                          Edmund

                           
                          On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 12:30 PM, Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com> wrote:
                           

                          Thank you Jeff.  My desire is to live peaceably with all men.  I only responded because of the inaccuracies attributed to me.  To not respond with have given them validity and they might have been repeated further as being representative of my views.  As one in the ministry, that would be very dangerous to overlook.


                          --- On Wed, 11/11/09, NewKnightRider <nmic28732@yahoo. com> wrote:

                          From: NewKnightRider <nmic28732@yahoo. com>

                          Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                          To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
                          Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 2:10 PM

                           

                          John - Thom: 
                          I love you both.  I call you both to peace; In the Name of our Lord, Who gave His all for us, I humbly and respectfully request that you both cease, and do whatever you have to do to restore fellowship among yourselves.
                           
                          I CORINTHIANS 6:9-11
                          Know you not the the unrighteous shall not inherit the knigdom of God?  Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
                          Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the Kingdom of God.
                          And such WERE (past tense; denotes a condition that was once true but now IS NOT)
                          some of you: but ye ARE washed, but ye ARE sanctified, but ye ARE justified in the Name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
                           
                           
                          2 CORINTHIANS 5:17
                          Therefore if ANY person be in Christ, he or she IS A NEW CREATION; old things ARE PASSED AWAY; behold, ALL things ARE BECOME NEW.
                           
                          My identity and personhood comes from and is defined by MY LORD AND MY GOD.  When I was apart from God, and an unsaved, unredeemed man, it was, but God reached down, and touched ME, and did ALL that He said He would do, and now my identity and personhood is NOT NOW, NOR WILL EVER AGAIN be defined by a sinful act or condition or behavior.
                           
                          We live in a fallen world.  THAT'S GOD'S PERFECT PLAN. He KNOWS we still live in a fallen world.  Therefore, every person alive on the earth will experience temptation.  SO WHAT!!!  I read Thom's entries, and in love, John, I say that I have never understood Thom to say that being tempted is a sin.  IT IS NOT A SIN TO BE TEMPTED.  If it were, our Lord and Savior would be a sinner, and we would all be lost, because the Bible says that Jesus Christ was tempted in all manner of sin, but He did not yield.  Not once. (Hebrews 4:15)
                           
                          BEING TEMPTED DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE ARE STILL HOMOSEXUAL.
                           
                          I choose to stand upon the inerrant Word of God that says I AM A NEW CREATION, OLD THINGS IN MY LIFE ARE DEAD, AND ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW, AND I AM ALIVE FOREVERMORE because of the Blood of the Lamb, my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and the love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, power, riches and strength of God my Father. 
                           
                          Thom - John:  Put this down.  Back away from the group for a season, and be reconcilled to each other.     
                           
                          I love you both. 
                           
                          jeffnkr

                          --- On Wed, 11/11/09, Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com> wrote:

                          From: Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com>
                          Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                          To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
                          Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 11:08 AM

                           
                          John,

                          You are deliberately misinterpreting my words . . . and I can't imagine for what reason other than perhaps divisiveness.

                          I have NEVER said that being a homosexual is a sin.  For whatever reason, many are oriented homosexually, as many are oriented heterosexually.  I have NEVER said that being tempted is a sin.  You are presenting a falsehood that is easily refuted by anyone who has read anything I have written or knows me at all.  I can't imagine what your purpose is other than to discredit a fellow Christian.

                          I have said that engaging in homosexual sex is a sin, but being tempted is not.  The Bible is clear and it is our authority there.

                          For everyone, I will answer the question John put below and clear up his intentional misrepresentation.  Yes . . . a man can be homosexual and not engage in prohibited behavior.  It's called celibacy and some homosexuals clearly believe it is God's calling on their lives.

                          We are all sinners, John, unless you choose to set aside that part of the Bible as well.

                          Thom
                          http://thom-/ signsofastruggle .blogspot. com/

                          --- On Wed, 11/11/09, John Spooner. South Oz. <skunk16@bigpond. com> wrote:

                          From: John Spooner. South Oz. <skunk16@bigpond. com>
                          Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                          To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
                          Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 9:56 AM

                           
                          I agree. Edmund does address it well.

                          Of course, I wonder - if one were to put the premise to Edmund that the Bible does prohibit laying with a man AS with a woman (penetrative sex) - and that we interpret that to mean ANAL SEX - would he agree that (that specific) behavior could be interpreted as 'acting out'?

                          This would not contradict what he has put forth, and it would also express Thom's premise (of acting out) in the manner it SHOULD be expressed. Thom condemns the BEING, instead of the DOING and that is where his argument has flaws. A man can be homosexual, and never engage in prohibited sexual behavior. Does Thom believe that man is still a sinner? I think he does.

                          --- In Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com, edmund ortega <eortega42@. ..> wrote:
                          >





                        • edmund ortega
                          Thank you John and Thom, We are brothers in the same loving, forgiving and merciful Savior. I support your walks with the Jesus. I know I am a sinner, and
                          Message 12 of 14 , Nov 16, 2009
                            Thank you John and Thom,
                             
                            We are brothers in the same loving, forgiving and merciful Savior.  I support your walks with the Jesus.  I know I am a sinner, and have repented of my sin.  I have not been to a sex club in 3 years.  Praise God!
                             
                            I gave up drinking alcohol 2 1/2 years ago...Praise Jesus, I am able to reach alcoholics.  Thank the Lord, I am compassionate to those who have been victimized by homophobic Christians through ostricization.  We all are trying our best to reach out to homosexuals, that God is there for them as well.  Amen.
                             
                            Last Sunday, I attended an Episcopal service.  The Vicar is openly gay...and so are some of the congregation.  I love them like everybody else, in the face of those Christians who are so self-righteous to judge them.  I will return this evening as I am helping the Episcopalians to provide Thanksgiving Dinner boxes for the homeless in my town. 
                             
                            Edmund
                             
                            Happy Thanksgiving, yall!

                            On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 8:27 PM, John Cliford <john_c_55@...> wrote:
                             

                            Thank you Edmund,

                            us Christians loose most of the gay world when we say,,,,,,,, come here and let us fix you,,,,,,, make you like us good Christians,,,,,,,, "then we will let you be a Christian".

                            No wonder they have a disdain for all Christians,,,,,,,, they do not know any that will say,,,,,"you are a sinner, just like us",,,,,,,, lets us tell you about Jesus Christ's love and forgiveness.

                            John






                            From: Thom Hunter <th2950@...>
                            Sent: Sat, November 14, 2009 1:42:49 PM

                            Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our-victory] Homosexuals and Your Church

                             

                            Edmund,

                            We're not that far off.  I believe there should be no condemnation.  Even if you hold the belief that I do that participating in homosexual sex is a sin, it is just a sin . . . just like lying or coveting or gossiping or the more consequential ones like murder, etc.  Jesus died to cover all the sins of those who accept Him and there is therefore no condemnation.

                            I do not self-loathe.  Indeed, I have learned to relinquish the shame and guilt that brings on self-loathing and turn it over to Christ.  The point of my writing on the blog and in the series in The Baptist Messenger would be to bring about understanding in the hopes of reducing homophobia.  I think you may be interpreting the things I write through a bias that may be the result of homophobia you have experienced from others.  My theme is always grace, compassion, forgiveness, love and respect.  Maybe you haven't actually read them?

                            I'm with you, brother, not against you.

                            Thom
                            http://thom- signsofastruggle .blogspot. com/

                            --- On Sat, 11/14/09, edmund ortega <eortega42@gmail. com> wrote:

                            From: edmund ortega <eortega42@gmail. com>
                            Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                            To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com

                            Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 3:26 PM

                             

                            Thom,  I am simply saying that science has it's place here in the discussion of homosexuality.  And there is nothing to show that homosexuals should be condemned by Christians or anyone else.
                             
                            When you self-loathe and have raised it to a level of a craft online, you are feeding into the homophobia that is out there in the world.  However, "Greater is He that is in us, than He who is in the world."
                             
                            Again, I leave you with "Peace",
                             
                            Brother in Christ Jesus, Savior, and Awesome God,
                            Edmund

                             
                            On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 12:30 PM, Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com> wrote:
                             

                            Thank you Jeff.  My desire is to live peaceably with all men.  I only responded because of the inaccuracies attributed to me.  To not respond with have given them validity and they might have been repeated further as being representative of my views.  As one in the ministry, that would be very dangerous to overlook.


                            --- On Wed, 11/11/09, NewKnightRider <nmic28732@yahoo. com> wrote:

                            From: NewKnightRider <nmic28732@yahoo. com>

                            Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                            To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
                            Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 2:10 PM

                             

                            John - Thom: 
                            I love you both.  I call you both to peace; In the Name of our Lord, Who gave His all for us, I humbly and respectfully request that you both cease, and do whatever you have to do to restore fellowship among yourselves.
                             
                            I CORINTHIANS 6:9-11
                            Know you not the the unrighteous shall not inherit the knigdom of God?  Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
                            Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the Kingdom of God.
                            And such WERE (past tense; denotes a condition that was once true but now IS NOT)
                            some of you: but ye ARE washed, but ye ARE sanctified, but ye ARE justified in the Name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
                             
                             
                            2 CORINTHIANS 5:17
                            Therefore if ANY person be in Christ, he or she IS A NEW CREATION; old things ARE PASSED AWAY; behold, ALL things ARE BECOME NEW.
                             
                            My identity and personhood comes from and is defined by MY LORD AND MY GOD.  When I was apart from God, and an unsaved, unredeemed man, it was, but God reached down, and touched ME, and did ALL that He said He would do, and now my identity and personhood is NOT NOW, NOR WILL EVER AGAIN be defined by a sinful act or condition or behavior.
                             
                            We live in a fallen world.  THAT'S GOD'S PERFECT PLAN. He KNOWS we still live in a fallen world.  Therefore, every person alive on the earth will experience temptation.  SO WHAT!!!  I read Thom's entries, and in love, John, I say that I have never understood Thom to say that being tempted is a sin.  IT IS NOT A SIN TO BE TEMPTED.  If it were, our Lord and Savior would be a sinner, and we would all be lost, because the Bible says that Jesus Christ was tempted in all manner of sin, but He did not yield.  Not once. (Hebrews 4:15)
                             
                            BEING TEMPTED DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE ARE STILL HOMOSEXUAL.
                             
                            I choose to stand upon the inerrant Word of God that says I AM A NEW CREATION, OLD THINGS IN MY LIFE ARE DEAD, AND ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW, AND I AM ALIVE FOREVERMORE because of the Blood of the Lamb, my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and the love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, power, riches and strength of God my Father. 
                             
                            Thom - John:  Put this down.  Back away from the group for a season, and be reconcilled to each other.     
                             
                            I love you both. 
                             
                            jeffnkr

                            --- On Wed, 11/11/09, Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com> wrote:

                            From: Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com>
                            Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                            To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
                            Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 11:08 AM

                             
                            John,

                            You are deliberately misinterpreting my words . . . and I can't imagine for what reason other than perhaps divisiveness.

                            I have NEVER said that being a homosexual is a sin.  For whatever reason, many are oriented homosexually, as many are oriented heterosexually.  I have NEVER said that being tempted is a sin.  You are presenting a falsehood that is easily refuted by anyone who has read anything I have written or knows me at all.  I can't imagine what your purpose is other than to discredit a fellow Christian.

                            I have said that engaging in homosexual sex is a sin, but being tempted is not.  The Bible is clear and it is our authority there.

                            For everyone, I will answer the question John put below and clear up his intentional misrepresentation.  Yes . . . a man can be homosexual and not engage in prohibited behavior.  It's called celibacy and some homosexuals clearly believe it is God's calling on their lives.

                            We are all sinners, John, unless you choose to set aside that part of the Bible as well.

                            Thom
                            http://thom-/ signsofastruggle .blogspot. com/

                            --- On Wed, 11/11/09, John Spooner. South Oz. <skunk16@bigpond. com> wrote:

                            From: John Spooner. South Oz. <skunk16@bigpond. com>
                            Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                            To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
                            Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 9:56 AM

                             
                            I agree. Edmund does address it well.

                            Of course, I wonder - if one were to put the premise to Edmund that the Bible does prohibit laying with a man AS with a woman (penetrative sex) - and that we interpret that to mean ANAL SEX - would he agree that (that specific) behavior could be interpreted as 'acting out'?

                            This would not contradict what he has put forth, and it would also express Thom's premise (of acting out) in the manner it SHOULD be expressed. Thom condemns the BEING, instead of the DOING and that is where his argument has flaws. A man can be homosexual, and never engage in prohibited sexual behavior. Does Thom believe that man is still a sinner? I think he does.

                            --- In Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com, edmund ortega <eortega42@. ..> wrote:
                            >






                          • Terry Settles
                            The name of this group is Jesus is our victory, He is also our example out of all the messages of members in this group it seems that many people tolerate same
                            Message 13 of 14 , Nov 16, 2009
                              The name of this group is Jesus is our victory, He is also our example out of all the messages of members in this group it seems that many people tolerate same sex relationships instead of being an Overcomer. REV 12:11 Brother i'm proud of your progress! What do you expect to receive from that Vicar in the pulpit who is walking after the flesh? Terry.

                              ----------
                              Sent from AT&T's Wireless network using Mobile Email

                              ------Original Message------
                              From: edmund ortega <eortega42@...>
                              To: <Jesus-is-our-victory@yahoogroups.com>
                              Date: Mon, Nov 16, 2009 02:02 PM
                              Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our-victory] Homosexuals and Your Church

                              Thank you John and Thom,

                              We are brothers in the same loving, forgiving and merciful Savior. I
                              support your walks with the Jesus. I know I am a sinner, and have repented
                              of my sin. I have not been to a sex club in 3 years. Praise God!

                              I gave up drinking alcohol 2 1/2 years ago...Praise Jesus, I am able to
                              reach alcoholics. Thank the Lord, I am compassionate to those who have been
                              victimized by homophobic Christians through ostricization. We all are
                              trying our best to reach out to homosexuals, that God is there for them as
                              well. Amen.

                              Last Sunday, I attended an Episcopal service. The Vicar is openly gay...and
                              so are some of the congregation. I love them like everybody else, in the
                              face of those Christians who are so self-righteous to judge them. I will
                              return this evening as I am helping the Episcopalians to provide
                              Thanksgiving Dinner boxes for the homeless in my town.

                              Edmund

                              Happy Thanksgiving, yall!

                              On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 8:27 PM, John Cliford <john_c_55@...> wrote:

                              >
                              >
                              > Thank you Edmund,
                              >
                              > us Christians loose most of the gay world when we say,,,,,,,, come here and
                              > let us fix you,,,,,,, make you like us good Christians,,,,,,,, "then we will
                              > let you be a Christian".
                              >
                              > No wonder they have a disdain for all Christians,,,,,,,, they do not know
                              > any that will say,,,,,"you are a sinner, just like us",,,,,,,, lets us tell
                              > you about Jesus Christ's love and forgiveness.
                              >
                              > John
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------
                              > *From:* Thom Hunter <th2950@...>
                              > *To:* Jesus-is-our-victory@yahoogroups.com
                              > *Sent:* Sat, November 14, 2009 1:42:49 PM
                              >
                              > *Subject:* Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our-victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Edmund,
                              >
                              > We're not that far off. I believe there should be no condemnation. Even
                              > if you hold the belief that I do that participating in homosexual sex is a
                              > sin, it is just a sin . . . just like lying or coveting or gossiping or the
                              > more consequential ones like murder, etc. Jesus died to cover all the sins
                              > of those who accept Him and there is therefore no condemnation.
                              >
                              > I do not self-loathe. Indeed, I have learned to relinquish the shame and
                              > guilt that brings on self-loathing and turn it over to Christ. The point of
                              > my writing on the blog and in the series in The Baptist Messenger would be
                              > to bring about understanding in the hopes of reducing homophobia. I think
                              > you may be interpreting the things I write through a bias that may be the
                              > result of homophobia you have experienced from others. My theme is always
                              > grace, compassion, forgiveness, love and respect. Maybe you haven't
                              > actually read them?
                              >
                              > I'm with you, brother, not against you.
                              >
                              > Thom
                              > http://thom- signsofastruggle .blogspot. com/
                              >
                              > --- On *Sat, 11/14/09, edmund ortega <eortega42@gmail. com>* wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > From: edmund ortega <eortega42@gmail. com>
                              > Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                              > To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
                              >
                              > Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 3:26 PM
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Thom, I am simply saying that science has it's place here in the
                              > discussion of homosexuality. And there is nothing to show that homosexuals
                              > should be condemned by Christians or anyone else.
                              >
                              > When you self-loathe and have raised it to a level of a craft online, you
                              > are feeding into the homophobia that is out there in the world. However,
                              > "Greater is He that is in us, than He who is in the world."
                              >
                              > Again, I leave you with "Peace",
                              >
                              > Brother in Christ Jesus, Savior, and Awesome God,
                              > Edmund
                              >
                              >
                              > On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 12:30 PM, Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com> wrote:
                              >
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> Thank you Jeff. My desire is to live peaceably with all men. I only
                              >> responded because of the inaccuracies attributed to me. To not respond with
                              >> have given them validity and they might have been repeated further as being
                              >> representative of my views. As one in the ministry, that would be very
                              >> dangerous to overlook.
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> --- On *Wed, 11/11/09, NewKnightRider <nmic28732@yahoo. com>* wrote:
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> From: NewKnightRider <nmic28732@yahoo. com>
                              >>
                              >> Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                              >> To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
                              >> Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 2:10 PM
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> John - Thom:
                              >> I love you both. I call you both to peace; In the Name of our Lord, Who
                              >> gave His all for us, I humbly and respectfully request that you both cease,
                              >> and do whatever you have to do to restore fellowship among yourselves.
                              >>
                              >> I CORINTHIANS 6:9-11
                              >> Know you not the the unrighteous shall not inherit the knigdom of God? Be
                              >> not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor
                              >> effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
                              >> Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners,
                              >> shall inherit the Kingdom of God.
                              >> And such WERE (past tense; denotes a condition that was once true but now
                              >> IS NOT)
                              >> some of you: but ye ARE washed, but ye ARE sanctified, but ye ARE
                              >> justified in the Name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> 2 CORINTHIANS 5:17
                              >> Therefore if ANY person be in Christ, he or she IS A NEW CREATION; old
                              >> things ARE PASSED AWAY; behold, ALL things ARE BECOME NEW.
                              >>
                              >> My identity and personhood comes from and is defined by MY LORD AND MY
                              >> GOD. When I was apart from God, and an unsaved, unredeemed man, it was, but
                              >> God reached down, and touched ME, and did ALL that He said He would do, and
                              >> now my identity and personhood is NOT NOW, NOR WILL EVER AGAIN be defined by
                              >> a sinful act or condition or behavior.
                              >>
                              >> We live in a fallen world. THAT'S GOD'S PERFECT PLAN. He KNOWS we still
                              >> live in a fallen world. Therefore, every person alive on the earth will
                              >> experience temptation. SO WHAT!!! I read Thom's entries, and in love,
                              >> John, I say that I have never understood Thom to say that being tempted is a
                              >> sin. IT IS NOT A SIN TO BE TEMPTED. If it were, our Lord and Savior would
                              >> be a sinner, and we would all be lost, because the Bible says that Jesus
                              >> Christ was tempted in all manner of sin, but He did not yield. Not once.
                              >> (Hebrews 4:15)
                              >>
                              >> BEING TEMPTED DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE ARE STILL HOMOSEXUAL.
                              >>
                              >> I choose to stand upon the inerrant Word of God that says I AM A NEW
                              >> CREATION, OLD THINGS IN MY LIFE ARE DEAD, AND ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW, AND
                              >> I AM ALIVE FOREVERMORE because of the Blood of the Lamb, my Lord and Savior,
                              >> Jesus Christ, and the love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, power, riches and
                              >> strength of God my Father.
                              >>
                              >> Thom - John: Put this down. Back away from the group for a season, and
                              >> be reconcilled to each other.
                              >>
                              >> I love you both.
                              >>
                              >> jeffnkr
                              >>
                              >> --- On *Wed, 11/11/09, Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com>* wrote:
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> From: Thom Hunter <th2950@yahoo. com>
                              >> Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                              >> To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
                              >> Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 11:08 AM
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> John,
                              >>
                              >> You are deliberately misinterpreting my words . . . and I can't imagine
                              >> for what reason other than perhaps divisiveness.
                              >>
                              >> I have NEVER said that being a homosexual is a sin. For whatever reason,
                              >> many are oriented homosexually, as many are oriented heterosexually. I have
                              >> NEVER said that being tempted is a sin. You are presenting a falsehood that
                              >> is easily refuted by anyone who has read anything I have written or knows me
                              >> at all. I can't imagine what your purpose is other than to discredit a
                              >> fellow Christian.
                              >>
                              >> I have said that engaging in homosexual sex is a sin, but being tempted is
                              >> not. The Bible is clear and it is our authority there.
                              >>
                              >> For everyone, I will answer the question John put below and clear up his
                              >> intentional misrepresentation. Yes . . . a man can be homosexual and not
                              >> engage in prohibited behavior. It's called celibacy and some homosexuals
                              >> clearly believe it is God's calling on their lives.
                              >>
                              >> We are all sinners, John, unless you choose to set aside that part of the
                              >> Bible as well.
                              >>
                              >> Thom
                              >> http://thom-/ signsofastruggle .blogspot. com/
                              >>
                              >> --- On *Wed, 11/11/09, John Spooner. South Oz. <skunk16@bigpond. com>*wrote:
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> From: John Spooner. South Oz. <skunk16@bigpond. com>
                              >> Subject: Re: Fw: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Homosexuals and Your Church
                              >> To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
                              >> Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 9:56 AM
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> I agree. Edmund does address it well.
                              >>
                              >> Of course, I wonder - if one were to put the premise to Edmund that the
                              >> Bible does prohibit laying with a man AS with a woman (penetrative sex) -
                              >> and that we interpret that to mean ANAL SEX - would he agree that (that
                              >> specific) behavior could be interpreted as 'acting out'?
                              >>
                              >> This would not contradict what he has put forth, and it would also express
                              >> Thom's premise (of acting out) in the manner it SHOULD be expressed. Thom
                              >> condemns the BEING, instead of the DOING and that is where his argument has
                              >> flaws. A man can be homosexual, and never engage in prohibited sexual
                              >> behavior. Does Thom believe that man is still a sinner? I think he does.
                              >>
                              >> --- In Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com, edmund ortega <eortega42@.
                              >> ..> wrote:
                              >> >
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >
                              >
                              >
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