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Journey Into Manhood

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  • ben_peoplecanchange
    Journey Into Manhood has been a powerful, turning point experience for many hundreds of men seeking to resolve unwanted same-sex attractions. 95% of men who
    Message 1 of 9 , Aug 8, 2009
      Journey Into Manhood has been a powerful, turning point experience for many hundreds of men seeking to resolve unwanted same-sex attractions. 95% of men who have completed the weekend recommend it to others. 80% report a decrease in the frequency or intensity of their homosexual feelings when surveyed 6 months to 6 years later. That's powerful!

      People Can Change is a non-profit organization that runs the Journey Into Manhood program. We have JiM weekends this year in:

      -- August 28 to 30 in Utah (east of Salt Lake City)
      -- September 11 to 13 in Pennsylvania (northwest of Philadelphia)
      -- October 30 to November 1 in England (west of London)
      -- October 30 to November 1 in Texas (north of Houston)

      Journey Into Manhood is not just a workshop or seminar with speakers and testimonials. Rather, it is an intense experiential weekend of self-exploration, emotional processing, and brotherly bonding with other men who share this journey. The program is peer-led by a volunteer staff of men who, for the most part, have been through JiM themselves and can testify from personal experience that change is possible.

      You arrive at the camp or retreat center on a Friday by 4. The program finishes Sunday by 5. The US$650 fee covers the complete training, 2 nights stay in group rooms or cabins, and all meals. We help arrange carpools, wherever feasible, between the camp or retreat center and the airport or train station.

      A limited number of sponsorships (made possible by donations from past JiM participants) are available to those who are highly motivated but can't afford the full fee. Sponsorships range from $50 to $400, so a sponsored man would still need to come up with at least $250 on his own. Financial assistance is also available in the form of a payment plan for those who apply and are pre-approved.

      To register, go to http://www.peoplecanchange.com/JIM_announce.htm and click through to pay your deposit online. When you click on this link, you'll be able to click either on "regular registration" or "register with a financial assistance application."

      See endorsement quotes below, from

      -- Dr. Joe Nicolosi of NARTH (the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality),

      -- Father John Harvey of the Catholic ministry COURAGE,

      -- Arthur Goldberg of JONAH (Jews Offering New Alternatives to Homosexuality), and

      -- Dr. Paul Miller, a psychiatrist in Ireland.


      "The Journey into Manhood weekend has become an essential part of helping men with unwanted same-sex attraction to access their true heterosexual nature. We encourage our clients to experience the JIM weekend as a powerful dimension in their healing process. The psychodynamic principles that underlie the JIM weekend are completely in accord with reparative therapy."

      -- Joseph Nicolosi, PhD, Los Angeles Clinical psychologist. Co-founder and past president, National Association of Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (www.narth.com). Author, "Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality" and "Preventing Homosexuality."


      "Journey Into Manhood can transform a man's life. It is one of the best programs out there enabling men to confront their pain and walk through their fear. Men go into the weekend lonely and isolated and emerge bonded with a community of like-minded brothers on a journey to wholeness.

      "I especially appreciate the staff's extraordinary sensitivity not only to the religious needs of observant ("Shomer Shabbat") Jews, but to men of all faiths."

      -- Arthur Goldberg, JD, Jersey City, New Jersey Co-founder and co-director of JONAH – Jews Offering New Alternatives to Homosexuality (www.jonahweb.org). Author, "Light in the Closet: Torah, Homosexuality and the Power to Change."


      "I've observed Journey Into Manhood to be a very professionally run, safe weekend that is based on proven techniques. I have witnessed the significant change that the weekend has brought about in the lives of men I know."

      -- Paul Miller, MD, Belfast, Northern Ireland. Psychiatrist. Medical director, ABEO (www.abeoonline.com). Accredited EMDR and trauma recovery specialist.


      "Courage regards Journey Into Manhood as a powerful resource to help men develop their full sense of manhood – a resource that complements the work of Courage in many respects."

      -- Father John F. Harvey, OSFS, New York, New York. Founder of Courage International, an apostolate of the Roman Catholic Church (www.couragerc.net). Author, "The Truth About Homosexuality: The Cry of the Faithful."

      ----------------------------------

      Rich Wyler
      Found and Director, People Can Change (www.peoplecanchange.com)
      Certified Life Coach, Higher Path Life Coaching (www.higherpathcoaching.com)
      1-434-985-8551
    • John Spooner
      With the greatest respects to Mr. Wyler he is typical of religious people, especially Pentecostals. They have no idea or understanding whatsoever of the
      Message 2 of 9 , Aug 8, 2009
        With the greatest respects to Mr. Wyler he is typical of religious
        people, especially Pentecostals. They have no idea or understanding
        whatsoever of the complexity of human psychology.
        Note also the emphasis on payment and sponsorship, it is really just a
        money-making event.

        Regards. John S.

        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------






        ----- Original Message -----
        From: ben_peoplecanchange
        To: Jesus-is-our-victory@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 11:14 PM
        Subject: [Jesus-is-our-victory] Journey Into Manhood
      • John Spooner.
        It is concerning to think of the men (young men) who will go through his programme and further confuse their already precarious self-esteem and identity...only
        Message 3 of 9 , Aug 10, 2009
          It is concerning to think of the men (young men) who will go through his programme and further confuse their already precarious self-esteem and identity...only to realize years later that it was all snake oil, hocus-pocus, smoke and mirror hogwash.

          Older men, whom have been around the block a few times,know not to fall for these scams.

          When Mr. Wyler and his ilk have found a way to change orientation - rather than simply suppress behavior - , then the more astute will listen more seriously. As things stand now Mr. Wyler, like the church generally, has no idea or comprehension of the complexity of human psychology. In fact it is "well-meaning" people and organizations such as that he promotes which give psychologists and psychiatrists a lot of business. The person attends the courses and seminars (usually at great financial cost), hears the Pentecostal hype of faith and healing and naturally expects the orientation to reverse around. When it does not and the guilt and doubt set in they are told "You do not have enough faith", whichs starts the downward spiral which ends up on the psychologists couch.

          These are facts which are clearly shown by impartial medical history and figures.

          Regards. John S.


          ---------------------------













          --- In Jesus-is-our-victory@yahoogroups.com, "ben_peoplecanchange" <rich@...> wrote:
          >
        • ben_peoplecanchange
          Wow, John, those are some strongly negative judgments of me based on just my one post about Journey Into Manhood. As far as I know, no one who actually knows
          Message 4 of 9 , Aug 10, 2009
            Wow, John, those are some strongly negative judgments of me based on just my one post about Journey Into Manhood. As far as I know, no one who actually knows me would say anything like that about me. Quite the opposite, actually.

            Likewise, none of the 1,100 men who have actually gone through the Journey Into Manhood weekend, as far as I know, would agree with you that it is "just a money making event." Not by a long shot. I've NEVER heard complaints about the cost of the JiM weekend from men who have been through the program. In fact, a few have told me, "I'd gladly have paid 2 or 3 times as much if I had known how profoundly it would affect my life."

            We are a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization that produces about 10 life-changing events like this a year, in 6 U.S. states and in England. We charge enough to cover most of our expenses, and raise money from donors to cover the rest. Donations allow us to pay up to 60% of the fee for a man to attend a JiM weekend for those who cannot afford the full fee.

            We have just 2 part time staff to run the nonprofit, who are payed below market wages with no benefits. About 20 volunteers staff each JiM weekend, without pay, and in fact we have a waiting list of past JiM participants who want to volunteer to staff a weekend for free.

            What do the participants get for it?

            Look at the survey results on our web site (www.peoplecanchange.com):

            -- 79 percent report a decrease in the frequency or intensity of their homosexual feelings since they took the Journey Into Manhood weekend

            -- 58 percent report an increase in their heterosexual attractions.

            -- 93 percent report that Journey Into Manhood had a positive impact on their efforts to diminish same-sex attractions

            -- 90 percent of participants reported feeling better about themselves.

            -- 95 percent say they would recommend the JiM weekend to others.

            You don't get results like these if you have "no understanding of human psychology" and if it's "just a money making event."

            Nor do you get endorsements like the following, from leaders in the area of sexual orientation change therapy and ministry:

            ----------------

            FROM: Joseph Nicolosi, PhD, Clinical psychologist. Co-founder and past president, National Association of Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (www.narth.com). Author, "Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality" and "Preventing Homosexuality":

            "The Journey into Manhood weekend has become an essential part of helping men with unwanted same-sex attraction to access their true heterosexual nature. We encourage our clients to experience the JIM weekend as a powerful dimension in their healing process. The psychodynamic principles that underlie the JIM weekend are completely in accord with reparative therapy."

            -----------------

            FROM: Father John F. Harvey, OSFS, Founder of Courage International, an apostolate of the Roman Catholic Church (www.couragerc.net). Author, "The Truth About Homosexuality: The Cry of the Faithful.":

            "Courage regards Journey Into Manhood as a powerful resource to help men develop their full sense of manhood – a resource that complements the work of Courage in many respects."

            ------------------

            FROM: Psychiatrist Paul Miller, MD, Belfast, Northern Ireland. Medical director, ABEO (www.abeoonline.com). Accredited EMDR and trauma recovery specialist:

            "I've observed Journey Into Manhood to be a very professionally run, safe weekend that is based on proven techniques. I have witnessed the significant change that the weekend has brought about in the lives of men I know."
            _______________

            FROM: Arthur Goldberg, JD, Co-founder and co-director of JONAH – Jews Offering New Alternatives to Homosexuality (www.jonahweb.org). Author, "Light in the Closet: Torah, Homosexuality and the Power to Change":

            "Journey Into Manhood can transform a man's life. It is one of the best programs out there enabling men to confront their pain and walk through their fear. Men go into the weekend lonely and isolated and emerge bonded with a community of like-minded brothers on a journey to wholeness.

            "I especially appreciate the staff's extraordinary sensitivity not only to the religious needs of observant ("Shomer Shabbat") Jews, but to men of all faiths."

            ----------

            See the survey results at http://www.peoplecanchange.com/pdfs/Survey%20Impact%20of%20JiM,%20PCC%20press%20release.pdf (news release)

            and

            http://www.peoplecanchange.com/pdfs/Final%202007%20JiM%20survey%20tables%20for%20publication.pdf (full report)

            Rich Wyler,
            Founder and Director, People Can Change (www.peoplecanchange.com)
            Certified Life Coach, Higher Path Life Coaching (www.higherpathcoaching.com


            --- In Jesus-is-our-victory@yahoogroups.com, "John Spooner" <skunk16@...> wrote:
            >
            > With the greatest respects to Mr. Wyler he is typical of religious
            > people, especially Pentecostals. They have no idea or understanding
            > whatsoever of the complexity of human psychology.
            > Note also the emphasis on payment and sponsorship, it is really just a
            > money-making event.
            >
            > Regards. John S.
            >
            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: ben_peoplecanchange
            > To: Jesus-is-our-victory@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 11:14 PM
            > Subject: [Jesus-is-our-victory] Journey Into Manhood
            >
          • John Spooner
            Dear Mr. Wyler. Could you get some of your success stories to post their testimonials to this forum. Also could these people give their testimony to an
            Message 5 of 9 , Aug 13, 2009
              Dear Mr. Wyler.
              Could you get some of your "success stories" to post their
              testimonials to this forum.
              Also could these people give their testimony to an absolute change
              of orientation, we are talking about orientation and not just behavioural
              changes.
              All the quotes from religious and secular sources do not
              prove anything except their second opinions.
              Secondly could you tell us whether the actual orientation is
              sinful.
              Regards.
              John S.

              -----------------------------------------------------------






              ----- Original Message -----
              From: ben_peoplecanchange
              To: Jesus-is-our-victory@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 11:52 PM
              Subject: [Jesus-is-our-victory] Re: Journey Into Manhood


              Wow, John, those are some strongly negative judgments of me based on just
              my one post about Journey Into Manhood. As far as I know, no one who
              actually knows me would say anything like that about me. Quite the opposite,
              actually.
            • richharley70
              While I haven t been able to attend a Journey into Manhood event yet,I cant wait til I do. I have several friends who have attended and they tell me it was
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 8, 2009
                While I haven't been able to attend a Journey into Manhood event yet,I cant wait til I do. I have several friends who have attended and they tell me it was one of the most healing events they have experienced in their lives.

                Rich


                --- In Jesus-is-our-victory@yahoogroups.com, "ben_peoplecanchange" <rich@...> wrote:
                >
                > Wow, John, those are some strongly negative judgments of me based on just my one post about Journey Into Manhood. As far as I know, no one who actually knows me would say anything like that about me. Quite the opposite, actually.
                >
                > Likewise, none of the 1,100 men who have actually gone through the Journey Into Manhood weekend, as far as I know, would agree with you that it is "just a money making event." Not by a long shot. I've NEVER heard complaints about the cost of the JiM weekend from men who have been through the program. In fact, a few have told me, "I'd gladly have paid 2 or 3 times as much if I had known how profoundly it would affect my life."
                >
                > We are a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization that produces about 10 life-changing events like this a year, in 6 U.S. states and in England. We charge enough to cover most of our expenses, and raise money from donors to cover the rest. Donations allow us to pay up to 60% of the fee for a man to attend a JiM weekend for those who cannot afford the full fee.
                >
                > We have just 2 part time staff to run the nonprofit, who are payed below market wages with no benefits. About 20 volunteers staff each JiM weekend, without pay, and in fact we have a waiting list of past JiM participants who want to volunteer to staff a weekend for free.
                >
                > What do the participants get for it?
                >
                > Look at the survey results on our web site (www.peoplecanchange.com):
                >
                > -- 79 percent report a decrease in the frequency or intensity of their homosexual feelings since they took the Journey Into Manhood weekend
                >
                > -- 58 percent report an increase in their heterosexual attractions.
                >
                > -- 93 percent report that Journey Into Manhood had a positive impact on their efforts to diminish same-sex attractions
                >
                > -- 90 percent of participants reported feeling better about themselves.
                >
                > -- 95 percent say they would recommend the JiM weekend to others.
                >
                > You don't get results like these if you have "no understanding of human psychology" and if it's "just a money making event."
                >
                > Nor do you get endorsements like the following, from leaders in the area of sexual orientation change therapy and ministry:
                >
                > ----------------
                >
                > FROM: Joseph Nicolosi, PhD, Clinical psychologist. Co-founder and past president, National Association of Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (www.narth.com). Author, "Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality" and "Preventing Homosexuality":
                >
                > "The Journey into Manhood weekend has become an essential part of helping men with unwanted same-sex attraction to access their true heterosexual nature. We encourage our clients to experience the JIM weekend as a powerful dimension in their healing process. The psychodynamic principles that underlie the JIM weekend are completely in accord with reparative therapy."
                >
                > -----------------
                >
                > FROM: Father John F. Harvey, OSFS, Founder of Courage International, an apostolate of the Roman Catholic Church (www.couragerc.net). Author, "The Truth About Homosexuality: The Cry of the Faithful.":
                >
                > "Courage regards Journey Into Manhood as a powerful resource to help men develop their full sense of manhood – a resource that complements the work of Courage in many respects."
                >
                > ------------------
                >
                > FROM: Psychiatrist Paul Miller, MD, Belfast, Northern Ireland. Medical director, ABEO (www.abeoonline.com). Accredited EMDR and trauma recovery specialist:
                >
                > "I've observed Journey Into Manhood to be a very professionally run, safe weekend that is based on proven techniques. I have witnessed the significant change that the weekend has brought about in the lives of men I know."
                > _______________
                >
                > FROM: Arthur Goldberg, JD, Co-founder and co-director of JONAH – Jews Offering New Alternatives to Homosexuality (www.jonahweb.org). Author, "Light in the Closet: Torah, Homosexuality and the Power to Change":
                >
                > "Journey Into Manhood can transform a man's life. It is one of the best programs out there enabling men to confront their pain and walk through their fear. Men go into the weekend lonely and isolated and emerge bonded with a community of like-minded brothers on a journey to wholeness.
                >
                > "I especially appreciate the staff's extraordinary sensitivity not only to the religious needs of observant ("Shomer Shabbat") Jews, but to men of all faiths."
                >
                > ----------
                >
                > See the survey results at http://www.peoplecanchange.com/pdfs/Survey%20Impact%20of%20JiM,%20PCC%20press%20release.pdf (news release)
                >
                > and
                >
                > http://www.peoplecanchange.com/pdfs/Final%202007%20JiM%20survey%20tables%20for%20publication.pdf (full report)
                >
                > Rich Wyler,
                > Founder and Director, People Can Change (www.peoplecanchange.com)
                > Certified Life Coach, Higher Path Life Coaching (www.higherpathcoaching.com
                >
                >
                > --- In Jesus-is-our-victory@yahoogroups.com, "John Spooner" <skunk16@> wrote:
                > >
                > > With the greatest respects to Mr. Wyler he is typical of religious
                > > people, especially Pentecostals. They have no idea or understanding
                > > whatsoever of the complexity of human psychology.
                > > Note also the emphasis on payment and sponsorship, it is really just a
                > > money-making event.
                > >
                > > Regards. John S.
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: ben_peoplecanchange
                > > To: Jesus-is-our-victory@yahoogroups.com
                > > Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 11:14 PM
                > > Subject: [Jesus-is-our-victory] Journey Into Manhood
                > >
                >
              • Thom Hunter
                I ve not attended a Journey into Manhood event.  However, I ve participated in other conferences that are created to help heal, such as Exodus conferences. 
                Message 7 of 9 , Oct 9, 2009
                  I've not attended a Journey into Manhood event.  However, I've participated in other conferences that are created to help heal, such as Exodus conferences.  Obviously, these types of things are not going to be free.  People who are called to work in this area do so out of a calling, but they also have families to feed and they deserve to be compensated for the work they do in bringing healing to men and women seeking freedom.  It is interesting that John's criticism is basically that there is a charge.  Am I to assume that psychologists typically give their services away free?

                  And, as far as I can tell, there is really no such thing as typical religious people.  The religious people I've encountered differ considerably.

                  Thom
                  http://thom-signsofastruggle.blogspot.com/

                  --- On Thu, 10/8/09, richharley70 <richharley70@...> wrote:

                  From: richharley70 <richharley70@...>
                  Subject: [Jesus-is-our-victory] Re: Journey Into Manhood
                  To: Jesus-is-our-victory@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Thursday, October 8, 2009, 11:23 PM

                   


                  While I haven't been able to attend a Journey into Manhood event yet,I cant wait til I do. I have several friends who have attended and they tell me it was one of the most healing events they have experienced in their lives.

                  Rich

                  --- In Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com, "ben_peoplecanchang e" <rich@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Wow, John, those are some strongly negative judgments of me based on just my one post about Journey Into Manhood. As far as I know, no one who actually knows me would say anything like that about me. Quite the opposite, actually.
                  >
                  > Likewise, none of the 1,100 men who have actually gone through the Journey Into Manhood weekend, as far as I know, would agree with you that it is "just a money making event." Not by a long shot. I've NEVER heard complaints about the cost of the JiM weekend from men who have been through the program. In fact, a few have told me, "I'd gladly have paid 2 or 3 times as much if I had known how profoundly it would affect my life."
                  >
                  > We are a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization that produces about 10 life-changing events like this a year, in 6 U.S. states and in England. We charge enough to cover most of our expenses, and raise money from donors to cover the rest. Donations allow us to pay up to 60% of the fee for a man to attend a JiM weekend for those who cannot afford the full fee.
                  >
                  > We have just 2 part time staff to run the nonprofit, who are payed below market wages with no benefits. About 20 volunteers staff each JiM weekend, without pay, and in fact we have a waiting list of past JiM participants who want to volunteer to staff a weekend for free.
                  >
                  > What do the participants get for it?
                  >
                  > Look at the survey results on our web site (www.peoplecanchang e.com):
                  >
                  > -- 79 percent report a decrease in the frequency or intensity of their homosexual feelings since they took the Journey Into Manhood weekend
                  >
                  > -- 58 percent report an increase in their heterosexual attractions.
                  >
                  > -- 93 percent report that Journey Into Manhood had a positive impact on their efforts to diminish same-sex attractions
                  >
                  > -- 90 percent of participants reported feeling better about themselves.
                  >
                  > -- 95 percent say they would recommend the JiM weekend to others.
                  >
                  > You don't get results like these if you have "no understanding of human psychology" and if it's "just a money making event."
                  >
                  > Nor do you get endorsements like the following, from leaders in the area of sexual orientation change therapy and ministry:
                  >
                  > ------------ ----
                  >
                  > FROM: Joseph Nicolosi, PhD, Clinical psychologist. Co-founder and past president, National Association of Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (www.narth.com) . Author, "Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality" and "Preventing Homosexuality" :
                  >
                  > "The Journey into Manhood weekend has become an essential part of helping men with unwanted same-sex attraction to access their true heterosexual nature. We encourage our clients to experience the JIM weekend as a powerful dimension in their healing process. The psychodynamic principles that underlie the JIM weekend are completely in accord with reparative therapy."
                  >
                  > ------------ -----
                  >
                  > FROM: Father John F. Harvey, OSFS, Founder of Courage International, an apostolate of the Roman Catholic Church (www.couragerc. net). Author, "The Truth About Homosexuality: The Cry of the Faithful.":
                  >
                  > "Courage regards Journey Into Manhood as a powerful resource to help men develop their full sense of manhood – a resource that complements the work of Courage in many respects."
                  >
                  > ------------ ------
                  >
                  > FROM: Psychiatrist Paul Miller, MD, Belfast, Northern Ireland. Medical director, ABEO (www.abeoonline. com). Accredited EMDR and trauma recovery specialist:
                  >
                  > "I've observed Journey Into Manhood to be a very professionally run, safe weekend that is based on proven techniques. I have witnessed the significant change that the weekend has brought about in the lives of men I know."
                  > ____________ ___
                  >
                  > FROM: Arthur Goldberg, JD, Co-founder and co-director of JONAH – Jews Offering New Alternatives to Homosexuality (www.jonahweb. org). Author, "Light in the Closet: Torah, Homosexuality and the Power to Change":
                  >
                  > "Journey Into Manhood can transform a man's life. It is one of the best programs out there enabling men to confront their pain and walk through their fear. Men go into the weekend lonely and isolated and emerge bonded with a community of like-minded brothers on a journey to wholeness.
                  >
                  > "I especially appreciate the staff's extraordinary sensitivity not only to the religious needs of observant ("Shomer Shabbat") Jews, but to men of all faiths."
                  >
                  > ----------
                  >
                  > See the survey results at http://www.peopleca nchange.com/ pdfs/Survey% 20Impact% 20of%20JiM, %20PCC%20press% 20release. pdf (news release)
                  >
                  > and
                  >
                  > http://www.peopleca nchange.com/ pdfs/Final% 202007%20JiM% 20survey% 20tables% 20for%20publicat ion.pdf (full report)
                  >
                  > Rich Wyler,
                  > Founder and Director, People Can Change (www.peoplecanchang e.com)
                  > Certified Life Coach, Higher Path Life Coaching (www.higherpathcoac hing.com
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com, "John Spooner" <skunk16@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > With the greatest respects to Mr. Wyler he is typical of religious
                  > > people, especially Pentecostals. They have no idea or understanding
                  > > whatsoever of the complexity of human psychology.
                  > > Note also the emphasis on payment and sponsorship, it is really just a
                  > > money-making event.
                  > >
                  > > Regards. John S.
                  > >
                  > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: ben_peoplecanchange
                  > > To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
                  > > Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 11:14 PM
                  > > Subject: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Journey Into Manhood
                  > >
                  >


                • John Spooner
                  Just going back to that matter, it is auspicious that two months after my request, Mr. Wyler has not been able to post or supply ANY testimonies or success
                  Message 8 of 9 , Oct 9, 2009
                    Just going back to that matter, it is auspicious that two months after my
                    request, Mr. Wyler has not been able to post or supply ANY testimonies or
                    success stories from past participants in his seminars. You would think
                    that something was as good or successful as he claims that such testimonies
                    would be abundant.
                    Need I say more.?
                    Copy of my original message to him below as posted on August 14th.
                    Regards. John S.

                    ------------------------------------------


                    " Dear Mr. Wyler.
                    Could you get some of your "success stories" to post their
                    testimonials to this forum.
                    Also could these people give their testimony to an absolute change
                    of orientation, we are talking about orientation and not just behavioural
                    changes.
                    All the quotes from religious and secular sources do not
                    prove anything except their second opinions.
                    Secondly could you tell us whether the actual orientation is
                    sinful.
                    Regards.
                    John S. "


                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------





                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: richharley70
                    To: Jesus-is-our-victory@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 2:53 PM
                    Subject: [Jesus-is-our-victory] Re: Journey Into Manhood
                  • Thom Hunter
                    John, It is not illogical to presume that many of those who find success would prefer to return to their lives as satisfied former gays or to a post-gay
                    Message 9 of 9 , Oct 9, 2009
                      John,

                      It is not illogical to presume that many of those who find success would prefer to return to their lives as satisfied former gays or to a post-gay existence and not be out there sharing their testimonies.  That's not odd at all.  While it might be a good thing for all of us if more people were very out-front about their struggles and their progress, being that out-front can produce some very uncomfortable situations.  Most men I know who obtain a reasonable amount of freedom from same-sex temptations and acting out give credit to the power of the Holy Spirit and try to re-build their lives rather than crow about their personal success.

                      Most of those who find freedom are sharing that with each other in the form of encouragement.  Testimonies are abundant, but producing them for your proof would be a cost too great to bear for people who have been hurt enough already.  You're being unreasonable.

                      Thom
                      http://thom-signsofastruggle.blogspot.com/

                      --- On Fri, 10/9/09, John Spooner <skunk16@...> wrote:

                      From: John Spooner <skunk16@...>
                      Subject: Re: [Jesus-is-our-victory] Re: Journey Into Manhood
                      To: Jesus-is-our-victory@yahoogroups.com
                      Cc: rich@...
                      Date: Friday, October 9, 2009, 11:38 AM

                       

                      Just going back to that matter, it is auspicious that two months after my
                      request, Mr. Wyler has not been able to post or supply ANY testimonies or
                      success stories from past participants in his seminars. You would think
                      that something was as good or successful as he claims that such testimonies
                      would be abundant.
                      Need I say more.?
                      Copy of my original message to him below as posted on August 14th.
                      Regards. John S.

                      ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---

                      " Dear Mr. Wyler.
                      Could you get some of your "success stories" to post their
                      testimonials to this forum.
                      Also could these people give their testimony to an absolute change
                      of orientation, we are talking about orientation and not just behavioural
                      changes.
                      All the quotes from religious and secular sources do not
                      prove anything except their second opinions.
                      Secondly could you tell us whether the actual orientation is
                      sinful.
                      Regards.
                      John S. "

                      ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: richharley70
                      To: Jesus-is-our- victory@yahoogro ups.com
                      Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 2:53 PM
                      Subject: [Jesus-is-our- victory] Re: Journey Into Manhood


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