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Fwd: Re: Vishnu and Siva worship prior to Buddha

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  • Ravi Chaudhary
    Readers may also wish to read the historians RS Joon and HS Pauria works. excerpts are in the archives and the files section Note that the action is an the
    Message 1 of 1 , Oct 5, 2003
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      Readers may also wish to read the historians RS Joon and HS Pauria

      excerpts are in the archives and the files section

      Note that the action is an the Siva(Shivaliks) south of Dehradun, the
      Doon Valley.

      See also:



      History of the Jats R S Joon

      An extract:

      "The facts are that Shiv Ji lived in Gangotri Hills which, due to
      Shiv Ji's popularity, came to be known as Shiv ki Jata. The mountain
      ranges in that area is now known as Shivaliks. Raja Vir Bhadra of the
      Puru dynasty was the ruler of Talkha Pur near Haridwar, which also
      formed part of the area known as Shiv ki Jata.

      This is the area around Haridwar. King Bhagirath brought the Ganga to
      the plains in this region. According to legend the Ganga flows out
      from Shiv Ji's Jata. Actually this also means that the Ganga flows
      out from the area known as Shiv ki Jata, the birthplace of the Jat
      Raja Vir Bhadra who was a follower and admirer of Shivji. On hearing
      of Sati's tragedy, Shiv Ji went to the durbar of Vir Bhadra and
      pulled at his hair in fury while narrating the story. This infuriated
      Vir Bhadra and with his army, are invaded Kankhal and killed Daksha.

      Raja Vir Bhadra had five sons and two grand sons named Pon Bhadra,
      Jakh Bhadra, Kalhan Bhadra, Brahma Bhadra, Ati Sur Bhadra, Dahi
      Bhadra and Anjana Jata Shankar. Seven major Jat gotras are named
      after these seven descendants of Vir Bhadra. A detailed account of
      these is found in the family history of Rana of Dholpur. This proves
      the descent of some Jats from Vir Bhadra.

      Raja Vir Bhadra's descendants were however not the only Jats.

      A famous Jat gotra is Shavi, whose yet other famous branches are
      Takshak and Bachhik and they claim their lineage from Shiv Ji.

      In the Matsya Puran it is mentioned that King Ushinar father of Shiv
      Ji, and grandson of King Shishu Bandha performed one hundred Yagyas
      and was given the title of YAT. It is, therefore, believed that the
      descendants of Ushinar began to be called Yats and later on Jats.
      This is also a reasonable inference as Shavi gotra is found in a
      large number amongst the Jats."


      Ishwa Misra's original post

      -- In IndianCivilization@yahoogroups.com, "adhin88" <adhin88@y...>
      Many features of the classical Shiva are already present in the Vedic
      period in Rudra, the dweller in mountains (YV XVI.2.3-4), etc. The
      Shatarudriya section gives a picture of a Pashupati, Nilagriiva,
      Shitikantha, Girishaya...
      Bhava, Sharva, Rudriya-Ganapataya, etc. are all to be found in the
      Vajasaneya Samhita.
      The AtharvaVeda emphasizes his (Eka-Vratya nature with the seven
      attendants: Bhava, Sharva, Pashupati, Ugra, Rudra, Mahadeva and
      Ishana, coupled with directions. (The Shatapatha adds an eighth to
      this list, named Ashani, in ShB VI.1.3.9)
      The stories in the different Brahmanas relate how powerful Rudra had
      become in that period and the power of Prajapati was declining.

      In the Vedic period Agni and Rudra started to being identified more
      and more, as in Taittiriya Samhita I.5.1.1 and also in Shatapatha
      Brahmana VI.1.3.10.
      While Rudra was at its height in the Brahmana period, Shiva was
      gaining ground as the most dominant feature of Rudra. In the
      Shvetashvatara Upanishad Brahman is identified with Rudra. This same
      work assigns the name 'Deva' to Rudra, also an epithet of Shiva. But
      also Hara, , Isha, Maheshvara, Bhagavat.

      Shiva may have started with the Shiva Anavas of the N/NW (first they
      were in the N and then moved south to abandon this area for the NW
      (Dasharajnya War?) In the AtharvaVeda XV.2.1-4 we find the word
      Maagadha in connection with Eka-Vraatya. It is curious that that the
      associates of Shiva, the Maruts are having been called Shaaka in two
      Rks (V.30.10 and VI.19.4).
      I believe that the Shiva Cult has its origins in Shiva Ushinari
      (deduced from the name Shivi Aushinara), son of Ushinara and father
      of emperor Shivi Aushinara of the Anavas, who once were in the
      Shivalik-to-Himalayan area, but came south when Shivi became the
      emperor. The Pre-and Proto-Bharata Rudra Cult and the Shiva Cult of
      the Anavas may have fused in the Late-Bharata Period.

      Vishnu Cult
      This is already ancient, as Vishnu was Upendra, but gaining more
      importance in the time of the Battle. The Bhargavas who were active
      with the Bharata Epic, have curiously enough a Vishnu Gotra,
      according to the Matsya Purana. Bhargavas were very active in for
      instance Anarta where the solar culture was prominent (also the solar
      Sharyata dynasty, absorbed later in the Haihaya Yadava clan).
      The Vasudeva Vishnu Cult took features of the (declining) Aindra
      Cult, like Govid of Indra becoming Govinda, etc.

      In short, the Vaishnava and Shaiva Cults were already existent in
      Vedic times, but absorbed features of other cults and developed
      further, while the other cults were declining. A normal process.


      --- In IndianCivilization@yahoogroups.com, "Kalavai Venkat"
      <history_judge@y...> wrote:
      > Another useful question to ask would be, "How much trust should we
      > have on the Pali sources as being representatives of the Buddha's
      > words and the conditions of his times?" It may be worth heeding to
      > the remarks of Rhys Davids and Winternitz on this. I am
      > their words.
      > Source: Winternitz, History of Indian Literature, Vol 2, Part 1,
      > 20 - 22. Also quoting Rhys Davids, JRAS 1913, pp. 481 fn).
      > Begin quote:
      > "That the Buddha spoke in Pali is highly improbable, since Magadha
      > was not the native land of the Buddha. So, one can't ascertain that
      > Pali texts recapture the Buddha's words accurately. Certainly, Pali
      > is an older Prakrit, the literary works of which could've
      > in the 5th century AD, though some early literary works could be
      > assigned to the dawn of the Christian era (Kalavai's note: yes, the
      > authors say AD). The Pali texts of Ceylon needn't be identical with
      > the Chinese and the Tibetan sources, or the North Indian sources,
      > of which are based on *older* Prakrit texts. Pali texts represent a
      > more advanced stage of development of the language of the Ashokan
      > edicts."
      > End quote.
      > If that is the case, then what the Pali texts reflect are the
      > conditions of Ceylon, where there might not have been Vaishnavism
      > Saivism. So, this needn't at all be the yardstick for measuring the
      > date of Saivism or Vaishnavism, or their temples. The authors have
      > quoted multiple sources that discuss the basis for their
      > and I haven't read them. Those who have may kindly summarise the
      > arguments.
      > Thanks.
      --- End forwarded message ---
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