Fwd: Re: Vishnu and Siva worship prior to Buddha
- Readers may also wish to read the historians RS Joon and HS Pauria
excerpts are in the archives and the files section
Note that the action is an the Siva(Shivaliks) south of Dehradun, the
History of the Jats R S Joon
"The facts are that Shiv Ji lived in Gangotri Hills which, due to
Shiv Ji's popularity, came to be known as Shiv ki Jata. The mountain
ranges in that area is now known as Shivaliks. Raja Vir Bhadra of the
Puru dynasty was the ruler of Talkha Pur near Haridwar, which also
formed part of the area known as Shiv ki Jata.
This is the area around Haridwar. King Bhagirath brought the Ganga to
the plains in this region. According to legend the Ganga flows out
from Shiv Ji's Jata. Actually this also means that the Ganga flows
out from the area known as Shiv ki Jata, the birthplace of the Jat
Raja Vir Bhadra who was a follower and admirer of Shivji. On hearing
of Sati's tragedy, Shiv Ji went to the durbar of Vir Bhadra and
pulled at his hair in fury while narrating the story. This infuriated
Vir Bhadra and with his army, are invaded Kankhal and killed Daksha.
Raja Vir Bhadra had five sons and two grand sons named Pon Bhadra,
Jakh Bhadra, Kalhan Bhadra, Brahma Bhadra, Ati Sur Bhadra, Dahi
Bhadra and Anjana Jata Shankar. Seven major Jat gotras are named
after these seven descendants of Vir Bhadra. A detailed account of
these is found in the family history of Rana of Dholpur. This proves
the descent of some Jats from Vir Bhadra.
Raja Vir Bhadra's descendants were however not the only Jats.
A famous Jat gotra is Shavi, whose yet other famous branches are
Takshak and Bachhik and they claim their lineage from Shiv Ji.
In the Matsya Puran it is mentioned that King Ushinar father of Shiv
Ji, and grandson of King Shishu Bandha performed one hundred Yagyas
and was given the title of YAT. It is, therefore, believed that the
descendants of Ushinar began to be called Yats and later on Jats.
This is also a reasonable inference as Shavi gotra is found in a
large number amongst the Jats."
Ishwa Misra's original post
-- In IndianCivilization@yahoogroups.com, "adhin88" <adhin88@y...>
Many features of the classical Shiva are already present in the Vedic
period in Rudra, the dweller in mountains (YV XVI.2.3-4), etc. The
Shatarudriya section gives a picture of a Pashupati, Nilagriiva,
Bhava, Sharva, Rudriya-Ganapataya, etc. are all to be found in the
The AtharvaVeda emphasizes his (Eka-Vratya nature with the seven
attendants: Bhava, Sharva, Pashupati, Ugra, Rudra, Mahadeva and
Ishana, coupled with directions. (The Shatapatha adds an eighth to
this list, named Ashani, in ShB VI.1.3.9)
The stories in the different Brahmanas relate how powerful Rudra had
become in that period and the power of Prajapati was declining.
In the Vedic period Agni and Rudra started to being identified more
and more, as in Taittiriya Samhita I.5.1.1 and also in Shatapatha
While Rudra was at its height in the Brahmana period, Shiva was
gaining ground as the most dominant feature of Rudra. In the
Shvetashvatara Upanishad Brahman is identified with Rudra. This same
work assigns the name 'Deva' to Rudra, also an epithet of Shiva. But
also Hara, , Isha, Maheshvara, Bhagavat.
Shiva may have started with the Shiva Anavas of the N/NW (first they
were in the N and then moved south to abandon this area for the NW
(Dasharajnya War?) In the AtharvaVeda XV.2.1-4 we find the word
Maagadha in connection with Eka-Vraatya. It is curious that that the
associates of Shiva, the Maruts are having been called Shaaka in two
Rks (V.30.10 and VI.19.4).
I believe that the Shiva Cult has its origins in Shiva Ushinari
(deduced from the name Shivi Aushinara), son of Ushinara and father
of emperor Shivi Aushinara of the Anavas, who once were in the
Shivalik-to-Himalayan area, but came south when Shivi became the
emperor. The Pre-and Proto-Bharata Rudra Cult and the Shiva Cult of
the Anavas may have fused in the Late-Bharata Period.
This is already ancient, as Vishnu was Upendra, but gaining more
importance in the time of the Battle. The Bhargavas who were active
with the Bharata Epic, have curiously enough a Vishnu Gotra,
according to the Matsya Purana. Bhargavas were very active in for
instance Anarta where the solar culture was prominent (also the solar
Sharyata dynasty, absorbed later in the Haihaya Yadava clan).
The Vasudeva Vishnu Cult took features of the (declining) Aindra
Cult, like Govid of Indra becoming Govinda, etc.
In short, the Vaishnava and Shaiva Cults were already existent in
Vedic times, but absorbed features of other cults and developed
further, while the other cults were declining. A normal process.
--- In IndianCivilization@yahoogroups.com, "Kalavai Venkat"
> Another useful question to ask would be, "How much trust should weparaphrasing
> have on the Pali sources as being representatives of the Buddha's
> words and the conditions of his times?" It may be worth heeding to
> the remarks of Rhys Davids and Winternitz on this. I am
> their words.pp.
> Source: Winternitz, History of Indian Literature, Vol 2, Part 1,
> 20 - 22. Also quoting Rhys Davids, JRAS 1913, pp. 481 fn).originated
> Begin quote:
> "That the Buddha spoke in Pali is highly improbable, since Magadha
> was not the native land of the Buddha. So, one can't ascertain that
> Pali texts recapture the Buddha's words accurately. Certainly, Pali
> is an older Prakrit, the literary works of which could've
> in the 5th century AD, though some early literary works could beall
> assigned to the dawn of the Christian era (Kalavai's note: yes, the
> authors say AD). The Pali texts of Ceylon needn't be identical with
> the Chinese and the Tibetan sources, or the North Indian sources,
> of which are based on *older* Prakrit texts. Pali texts represent aor
> more advanced stage of development of the language of the Ashokan
> End quote.
> If that is the case, then what the Pali texts reflect are the
> conditions of Ceylon, where there might not have been Vaishnavism
> Saivism. So, this needn't at all be the yardstick for measuring theconclusions,
> date of Saivism or Vaishnavism, or their temples. The authors have
> quoted multiple sources that discuss the basis for their
> and I haven't read them. Those who have may kindly summarise the--- End forwarded message ---