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Re: History, DNA, Greeks etc

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  • ravichaudhary2000
    When you deal with History, (and the recreation of the History of the Jats, the recording of which at best has been sketchy so far) A good place to start is
    Message 1 of 17 , Aug 26, 2013
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      When you deal with History, (and the recreation of the History of the Jats, the recording of which at best has been sketchy so far)


      A good place to start is getting rid of concepts like " well established".

      That is what this list is about.

      It is get rid of " so called established concepts", discover new facts, and re interpret them

      I am going to suggest to you take a a few hours to read through the archives, and then put your considered thoughts forward.

      Best Regards

      Ravi Chaudhary






      --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "sbgts2013" <raad11@...> wrote:
      >
      > The Indo-Scythian kingdoms are a matter of well established and accepted historical record. So are the Indo-Greek kingdoms. Denials of either are not taken seriously by historians.
      >
      >
    • sbgts2013
      I got confirmation of my extended family tree last night and all my great grandparents and grandparents were Jatts from Punjab and all related to one another.
      Message 2 of 17 , Aug 26, 2013
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        I got confirmation of my extended family tree last night and all my great grandparents and grandparents were Jatts from Punjab and all related to one another. Mostly Pansota and Bahlam/Balham first cousins marrying as far back as my great grandparents and then with my great great and great great great grandparents there are Sikh Jatts, but everyone is accounted for, all from within Punjab. I would guess that there was some Punjabi Brahmin mixture from several hundred years back and since there was a lot of intermarriage within the family, it was preserved. What's curious is that the Siberian and Beringian numbers are also slightly higher than the other Jatts in the database.

        The Caucasian or Central Asian numbers don't dip much below other Punjab populations at all so that suggests differentiation happened in India and in Punjab.

        The Gill contribution from my paternal line was virtually alien in my family tree so the J2b2* being in East/South populations might be coincidental. It could just be that Balham and Pansota are related to Brahmins as well.

        --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, Simranjit Singh Sandhu <simranjits@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi,
        >
        > My guess is there is a some non jatt admixture which ould be from just one
        > grand parent. I'm only saying this as there is a consistent admixture among
        > most of the Punjabi Jatts.
        > Btw i think it's http://www.jatland.com/home/Balham , not Bahlam.
        >
        > Regards,
        > Simran
        >
        >
        >
        > On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 9:33 PM, sbgts2013 <raad11@...> wrote:
        >
        > > **
        > >
        > >
        > > Ancestry Composition not ready yet but I submitted my data to Harappa
        > > world and did their DIY admixture thing. Here are my results:
        > >
        > > 37.09% S-Indian
        > > 34.88% Baloch
        > > 10.77% Caucasian
        > > 9.51% NE-Euro
        > > 0.10% SE-Asian
        > > 1.62% Siberian
        > > 0.01% NE-Asian
        > > 0.84% Papuan
        > > 1.01% American
        > > 1.71% Beringian
        > > 1.24% Mediterranean
        > > 1.21% SW-Asian
        > >
        > > These numbers show higher S-Indian and lower Baloch than the other Jatts
        > > in the list (and is closer to the Brahmins in that regard), but the
        > > Caucasian is similar to other Jatts (higher than the Brahmins). NE-Euro is
        > > like inbetween Brahmins and Jatts (higher than the Brahmins, at the low
        > > range of other Jatts).
        > >
        > > There were a couple of Jatts and Pashtun who were around my numbers. So it
        > > seems the difference in my results is like a mixture of typical
        > > Punjabi/Jatt, but leaning towards Brahmins. I wonder why that is? Brahmins
        > > were usually a different caste altogether than Jatts, who were Kshatriya,
        > > right? I'm not entirely familiar with that.
        > >
        > > I'd be curious to see the results of other Gills. More info on my family:
        > > Some of them converted from Sikhism to Islam in the 1800s. Paternal
        > > grandfather (Gill) from Ludhiana, maternal grandfather (Pansota) from
        > > Hoshiarpur. They're all Majha Jatts who speak Majhail dialect. I have a
        > > large contribution from the "Bahlam" Jatt gotra which I have not been able
        > > to find in online listings. My maternal grandmother was Bahlam, my maternal
        > > grandfather's mother was also Bahlam, my paternal grandmother was also
        > > Bahlam. So while my lineage is Gill, there is a large amount of Bahlam
        > > compounded through the generations. My MtDNA (M30b) is also well
        > > represented in S-Indian, as was the J2b2*.
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "sbgts2013" <raad11@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Some of my posts don't seem to be going through.
        > > >
        > > > Yes, it's not Greek but actually Balkan. But Alexander and his army
        > > weren't really Greek either (Macedonians and Thracians, groups which do
        > > have J haplogroup today), and the people of Greece now have different
        > > ancestry from those groups back then. The culture and civilization was
        > > Hellenic or Greek and that's what I mean by "Indo-Greek".
        > > >
        > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, Simranjit Singh Sandhu <simranjits@>
        > > wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > I would be cautious to draw any conclusion of Greek admixture as the
        > > lack
        > > > > of e1 haplo amongst south Asian populations is quite telling, being the
        > > > > major haplo for modern Greeks.
        > > > > On 26 Aug 2013 13:48, "sbgts2013" <raad11@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > > **
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Just to add, my parents' families are both Majha Jatts according to
        > > my
        > > > > > grandmother.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I also sent my results in to the Harappa ancestry project.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Reading up on history a little and the J2b2* spread overlaps with the
        > > > > > Indo-Greek and also the Mauryan kingdoms (which spread in the
        > > opposite
        > > > > > direction). But since it is spread from the Y-Chromosome, it's
        > > unlikely to
        > > > > > have come from Mauryan/Indian rulers marrying Greek women (which is
        > > well
        > > > > > established history), it would have had to come from a male lineage
        > > that
        > > > > > somehow spread in East India (I mistakenly wrote West repeatedly in
        > > my
        > > > > > previous posts, I meant East) and is related to the other
        > > populations of
        > > > > > the Balkans, Anatolia, Levant, and Arabia. The Indo-Greek incursions
        > > into
        > > > > > East India make some sense then I suppose since this was after the
        > > Mauryan
        > > > > > empire collapsed.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > The limited number of J2b2* matches in Punjab compared to Sindh and
        > > East
        > > > > > India could be due to the fact that the Indo-Greek kingdoms were
        > > overrun by
        > > > > > the invading Scythians barely a century later, who set up the
        > > Indo-Scythian
        > > > > > kingdoms from which most Jatts are descended (the R and L
        > > haplogroups I
        > > > > > imagine). Some of the remnants of the J2b2* population stuck it out
        > > and
        > > > > > mixed with them I suppose.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "sbgts2013" <raad11@> wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Yes, I was expecting R or L, so I was really surprised. I put no
        > > stock
        > > > > > in the Greek theory when I read about it on Wikipedia a long time
        > > ago but I
        > > > > > guess there must be something to it. J2b2* is prominent in Balkan
        > > > > > populations (Kosovo Albanians having 17%), some populations in
        > > Turkey,
        > > > > > Iran, Pakistan, and also Nepal and South/West India, which overlaps
        > > with
        > > > > > the reach of Indo-Greek kingdoms.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/ydna-haplogroup-j2-m172/8675629333/
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > If the J2b2* is from Bronze Age, before Alexander, that would
        > > indicate a
        > > > > > Rajput origin from out West I presume. Also I heard the story that
        > > Gills
        > > > > > are descended from a Rajput king of "Mithila", I looked it up and
        > > Mithila
        > > > > > is a kingdom and city in Nepal.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, Simranjit Singh Sandhu
        > > <simranjits@>
        > > > > > wrote:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Actually most Jatts are R1 or L1c(previously L3). So a J is
        > > > > > interesting.
        > > > > > > > On 26 Aug 2013 11:57, "sbgts2013" <raad11@> wrote:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > **
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > My parents are Jatts from Pakistan. My father is Gill from his
        > > > > > father (and
        > > > > > > > > also has some Sandhu) and my mother is Pansota (and her mother
        > > is
        > > > > > > > > "Bahlam"). They're from around Faisalabad area.
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > Paternal lineage is J2b2* and maternal lineage is M30b.
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > J2b2* seems to fit Bhim Singh Dahiya's theory of Gills being
        > > > > > descended
        > > > > > > > > from Greeks or people further West than the other Jatt tribes.
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > The ancestry composition results have not come in yet, I will
        > > post
        > > > > > again
        > > > > > > > > with those results when they do.
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
      • ravichaudhary2000
        What you are writing does not make logical sense. Jats do not go in for cross cousin marriage. They follow the rules very strictly. Even those who follow
        Message 3 of 17 , Aug 26, 2013
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          What you are writing does not make logical sense.

          Jats do not go in for cross cousin marriage. They follow the rules very strictly.

          Even those who follow Islam( where cross cousin marriage is acceptable), keep to the rules quuite strictly.


          Since this is a personal matter, in your family, ( if true), we will leave it at that.


          Ravi Chaudhary

          Moderator

          --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "sbgts2013" <raad11@...> wrote:
          >
          > I got confirmation of my extended family tree last night and all my great grandparents and grandparents were Jatts from Punjab and all related to one another. Mostly Pansota and Bahlam/Balham first cousins marrying as far back as my great grandparents and then with my great great and great great great grandparents there are Sikh Jatts, but everyone is accounted for, all from within Punjab. I would guess that there was some Punjabi Brahmin mixture from several hundred years back and since there was a lot of intermarriage within the family, it was preserved. What's curious is that the Siberian and Beringian numbers are also slightly higher than the other Jatts in the database.
          >
          > The Caucasian or Central Asian numbers don't dip much below other Punjab populations at all so that suggests differentiation happened in India and in Punjab.
          >
          > The Gill contribution from my paternal line was virtually alien in my family tree so the J2b2* being in East/South populations might be coincidental. It could just be that Balham and Pansota are related to Brahmins as well.
          >
          > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, Simranjit Singh Sandhu <simranjits@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi,
          > >
          > > My guess is there is a some non jatt admixture which ould be from just one
          > > grand parent. I'm only saying this as there is a consistent admixture among
          > > most of the Punjabi Jatts.
          > > Btw i think it's http://www.jatland.com/home/Balham , not Bahlam.
          > >
          > > Regards,
          > > Simran
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 9:33 PM, sbgts2013 <raad11@> wrote:
          > >
          > > > **
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Ancestry Composition not ready yet but I submitted my data to Harappa
          > > > world and did their DIY admixture thing. Here are my results:
          > > >
          > > > 37.09% S-Indian
          > > > 34.88% Baloch
          > > > 10.77% Caucasian
          > > > 9.51% NE-Euro
          > > > 0.10% SE-Asian
          > > > 1.62% Siberian
          > > > 0.01% NE-Asian
          > > > 0.84% Papuan
          > > > 1.01% American
          > > > 1.71% Beringian
          > > > 1.24% Mediterranean
          > > > 1.21% SW-Asian
          > > >
          > > > These numbers show higher S-Indian and lower Baloch than the other Jatts
          > > > in the list (and is closer to the Brahmins in that regard), but the
          > > > Caucasian is similar to other Jatts (higher than the Brahmins). NE-Euro is
          > > > like inbetween Brahmins and Jatts (higher than the Brahmins, at the low
          > > > range of other Jatts).
          > > >
          > > > There were a couple of Jatts and Pashtun who were around my numbers. So it
          > > > seems the difference in my results is like a mixture of typical
          > > > Punjabi/Jatt, but leaning towards Brahmins. I wonder why that is? Brahmins
          > > > were usually a different caste altogether than Jatts, who were Kshatriya,
          > > > right? I'm not entirely familiar with that.
          > > >
          > > > I'd be curious to see the results of other Gills. More info on my family:
          > > > Some of them converted from Sikhism to Islam in the 1800s. Paternal
          > > > grandfather (Gill) from Ludhiana, maternal grandfather (Pansota) from
          > > > Hoshiarpur. They're all Majha Jatts who speak Majhail dialect. I have a
          > > > large contribution from the "Bahlam" Jatt gotra which I have not been able
          > > > to find in online listings. My maternal grandmother was Bahlam, my maternal
          > > > grandfather's mother was also Bahlam, my paternal grandmother was also
          > > > Bahlam. So while my lineage is Gill, there is a large amount of Bahlam
          > > > compounded through the generations. My MtDNA (M30b) is also well
          > > > represented in S-Indian, as was the J2b2*.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "sbgts2013" <raad11@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > Some of my posts don't seem to be going through.
          > > > >
          > > > > Yes, it's not Greek but actually Balkan. But Alexander and his army
          > > > weren't really Greek either (Macedonians and Thracians, groups which do
          > > > have J haplogroup today), and the people of Greece now have different
          > > > ancestry from those groups back then. The culture and civilization was
          > > > Hellenic or Greek and that's what I mean by "Indo-Greek".
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, Simranjit Singh Sandhu <simranjits@>
          > > > wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > I would be cautious to draw any conclusion of Greek admixture as the
          > > > lack
          > > > > > of e1 haplo amongst south Asian populations is quite telling, being the
          > > > > > major haplo for modern Greeks.
          > > > > > On 26 Aug 2013 13:48, "sbgts2013" <raad11@> wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > > **
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Just to add, my parents' families are both Majha Jatts according to
          > > > my
          > > > > > > grandmother.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > I also sent my results in to the Harappa ancestry project.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Reading up on history a little and the J2b2* spread overlaps with the
          > > > > > > Indo-Greek and also the Mauryan kingdoms (which spread in the
          > > > opposite
          > > > > > > direction). But since it is spread from the Y-Chromosome, it's
          > > > unlikely to
          > > > > > > have come from Mauryan/Indian rulers marrying Greek women (which is
          > > > well
          > > > > > > established history), it would have had to come from a male lineage
          > > > that
          > > > > > > somehow spread in East India (I mistakenly wrote West repeatedly in
          > > > my
          > > > > > > previous posts, I meant East) and is related to the other
          > > > populations of
          > > > > > > the Balkans, Anatolia, Levant, and Arabia. The Indo-Greek incursions
          > > > into
          > > > > > > East India make some sense then I suppose since this was after the
          > > > Mauryan
          > > > > > > empire collapsed.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > The limited number of J2b2* matches in Punjab compared to Sindh and
          > > > East
          > > > > > > India could be due to the fact that the Indo-Greek kingdoms were
          > > > overrun by
          > > > > > > the invading Scythians barely a century later, who set up the
          > > > Indo-Scythian
          > > > > > > kingdoms from which most Jatts are descended (the R and L
          > > > haplogroups I
          > > > > > > imagine). Some of the remnants of the J2b2* population stuck it out
          > > > and
          > > > > > > mixed with them I suppose.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "sbgts2013" <raad11@> wrote:
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > Yes, I was expecting R or L, so I was really surprised. I put no
          > > > stock
          > > > > > > in the Greek theory when I read about it on Wikipedia a long time
          > > > ago but I
          > > > > > > guess there must be something to it. J2b2* is prominent in Balkan
          > > > > > > populations (Kosovo Albanians having 17%), some populations in
          > > > Turkey,
          > > > > > > Iran, Pakistan, and also Nepal and South/West India, which overlaps
          > > > with
          > > > > > > the reach of Indo-Greek kingdoms.
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/ydna-haplogroup-j2-m172/8675629333/
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > If the J2b2* is from Bronze Age, before Alexander, that would
          > > > indicate a
          > > > > > > Rajput origin from out West I presume. Also I heard the story that
          > > > Gills
          > > > > > > are descended from a Rajput king of "Mithila", I looked it up and
          > > > Mithila
          > > > > > > is a kingdom and city in Nepal.
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, Simranjit Singh Sandhu
          > > > <simranjits@>
          > > > > > > wrote:
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Actually most Jatts are R1 or L1c(previously L3). So a J is
          > > > > > > interesting.
          > > > > > > > > On 26 Aug 2013 11:57, "sbgts2013" <raad11@> wrote:
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > > **
          > > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > > My parents are Jatts from Pakistan. My father is Gill from his
          > > > > > > father (and
          > > > > > > > > > also has some Sandhu) and my mother is Pansota (and her mother
          > > > is
          > > > > > > > > > "Bahlam"). They're from around Faisalabad area.
          > > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > > Paternal lineage is J2b2* and maternal lineage is M30b.
          > > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > > J2b2* seems to fit Bhim Singh Dahiya's theory of Gills being
          > > > > > > descended
          > > > > > > > > > from Greeks or people further West than the other Jatt tribes.
          > > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > > The ancestry composition results have not come in yet, I will
          > > > post
          > > > > > > again
          > > > > > > > > > with those results when they do.
          > > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • ajit singh
          Very true Mr Ravi... Regards, Ajeet Singh   ________________________________ From: ravichaudhary2000 To:
          Message 4 of 17 , Aug 27, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            Very true Mr Ravi...
             
            Regards,
            Ajeet Singh
             

            From: ravichaudhary2000 <ravichaudhary2000@...>
            To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, 27 August 2013 10:25 AM
            Subject: [JatHistory] Re: results of my DNA test from 23andme
             
            What you are writing does not make logical sense.

            Jats do not go in for cross cousin marriage. They follow the rules very strictly.

            Even those who follow Islam( where cross cousin marriage is acceptable), keep to the rules quuite strictly.

            Since this is a personal matter, in your family, ( if true), we will leave it at that.

            Ravi Chaudhary

            Moderator

            --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "sbgts2013" <raad11@...> wrote:
            >
            > I got confirmation of my extended family tree last night and all my great grandparents and grandparents were Jatts from Punjab and all related to one another. Mostly Pansota and Bahlam/Balham first cousins marrying as far back as my great grandparents and then with my great great and great great great grandparents there are Sikh Jatts, but everyone is accounted for, all from within Punjab. I would guess that there was some Punjabi Brahmin mixture from several hundred years back and since there was a lot of intermarriage within the family, it was preserved. What's curious is that the Siberian and Beringian numbers are also slightly higher than the other Jatts in the database.
            >
            > The Caucasian or Central Asian numbers don't dip much below other Punjab populations at all so that suggests differentiation happened in India and in Punjab.
            >
            > The Gill contribution from my paternal line was virtually alien in my family tree so the J2b2* being in East/South populations might be coincidental. It could just be that Balham and Pansota are related to Brahmins as well.
            >
            > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, Simranjit Singh Sandhu <simranjits@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi,
            > >
            > > My guess is there is a some non jatt admixture which ould be from just one
            > > grand parent. I'm only saying this as there is a consistent admixture among
            > > most of the Punjabi Jatts.
            > > Btw i think it's http://www.jatland.com/home/Balham , not Bahlam.
            > >
            > > Regards,
            > > Simran
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 9:33 PM, sbgts2013 <raad11@> wrote:
            > >
            > > > **
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Ancestry Composition not ready yet but I submitted my data to Harappa
            > > > world and did their DIY admixture thing. Here are my results:
            > > >
            > > > 37.09% S-Indian
            > > > 34.88% Baloch
            > > > 10.77% Caucasian
            > > > 9.51% NE-Euro
            > > > 0.10% SE-Asian
            > > > 1.62% Siberian
            > > > 0.01% NE-Asian
            > > > 0.84% Papuan
            > > > 1.01% American
            > > > 1.71% Beringian
            > > > 1.24% Mediterranean
            > > > 1.21% SW-Asian
            > > >
            > > > These numbers show higher S-Indian and lower Baloch than the other Jatts
            > > > in the list (and is closer to the Brahmins in that regard), but the
            > > > Caucasian is similar to other Jatts (higher than the Brahmins). NE-Euro is
            > > > like inbetween Brahmins and Jatts (higher than the Brahmins, at the low
            > > > range of other Jatts).
            > > >
            > > > There were a couple of Jatts and Pashtun who were around my numbers. So it
            > > > seems the difference in my results is like a mixture of typical
            > > > Punjabi/Jatt, but leaning towards Brahmins. I wonder why that is? Brahmins
            > > > were usually a different caste altogether than Jatts, who were Kshatriya,
            > > > right? I'm not entirely familiar with that.
            > > >
            > > > I'd be curious to see the results of other Gills. More info on my family:
            > > > Some of them converted from Sikhism to Islam in the 1800s. Paternal
            > > > grandfather (Gill) from Ludhiana, maternal grandfather (Pansota) from
            > > > Hoshiarpur. They're all Majha Jatts who speak Majhail dialect. I have a
            > > > large contribution from the "Bahlam" Jatt gotra which I have not been able
            > > > to find in online listings. My maternal grandmother was Bahlam, my maternal
            > > > grandfather's mother was also Bahlam, my paternal grandmother was also
            > > > Bahlam. So while my lineage is Gill, there is a large amount of Bahlam
            > > > compounded through the generations. My MtDNA (M30b) is also well
            > > > represented in S-Indian, as was the J2b2*.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "sbgts2013" <raad11@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > Some of my posts don't seem to be going through.
            > > > >
            > > > > Yes, it's not Greek but actually Balkan. But Alexander and his army
            > > > weren't really Greek either (Macedonians and Thracians, groups which do
            > > > have J haplogroup today), and the people of Greece now have different
            > > > ancestry from those groups back then. The culture and civilization was
            > > > Hellenic or Greek and that's what I mean by "Indo-Greek".
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, Simranjit Singh Sandhu <simranjits@>
            > > > wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > I would be cautious to draw any conclusion of Greek admixture as the
            > > > lack
            > > > > > of e1 haplo amongst south Asian populations is quite telling, being the
            > > > > > major haplo for modern Greeks.
            > > > > > On 26 Aug 2013 13:48, "sbgts2013" <raad11@> wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > > **
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Just to add, my parents' families are both Majha Jatts according to
            > > > my
            > > > > > > grandmother.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > I also sent my results in to the Harappa ancestry project.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Reading up on history a little and the J2b2* spread overlaps with the
            > > > > > > Indo-Greek and also the Mauryan kingdoms (which spread in the
            > > > opposite
            > > > > > > direction). But since it is spread from the Y-Chromosome, it's
            > > > unlikely to
            > > > > > > have come from Mauryan/Indian rulers marrying Greek women (which is
            > > > well
            > > > > > > established history), it would have had to come from a male lineage
            > > > that
            > > > > > > somehow spread in East India (I mistakenly wrote West repeatedly in
            > > > my
            > > > > > > previous posts, I meant East) and is related to the other
            > > > populations of
            > > > > > > the Balkans, Anatolia, Levant, and Arabia. The Indo-Greek incursions
            > > > into
            > > > > > > East India make some sense then I suppose since this was after the
            > > > Mauryan
            > > > > > > empire collapsed.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > The limited number of J2b2* matches in Punjab compared to Sindh and
            > > > East
            > > > > > > India could be due to the fact that the Indo-Greek kingdoms were
            > > > overrun by
            > > > > > > the invading Scythians barely a century later, who set up the
            > > > Indo-Scythian
            > > > > > > kingdoms from which most Jatts are descended (the R and L
            > > > haplogroups I
            > > > > > > imagine). Some of the remnants of the J2b2* population stuck it out
            > > > and
            > > > > > > mixed with them I suppose.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "sbgts2013" <raad11@> wrote:
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Yes, I was expecting R or L, so I was really surprised. I put no
            > > > stock
            > > > > > > in the Greek theory when I read about it on Wikipedia a long time
            > > > ago but I
            > > > > > > guess there must be something to it. J2b2* is prominent in Balkan
            > > > > > > populations (Kosovo Albanians having 17%), some populations in
            > > > Turkey,
            > > > > > > Iran, Pakistan, and also Nepal and South/West India, which overlaps
            > > > with
            > > > > > > the reach of Indo-Greek kingdoms.
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/ydna-haplogroup-j2-m172/8675629333/
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > If the J2b2* is from Bronze Age, before Alexander, that would
            > > > indicate a
            > > > > > > Rajput origin from out West I presume. Also I heard the story that
            > > > Gills
            > > > > > > are descended from a Rajput king of "Mithila", I looked it up and
            > > > Mithila
            > > > > > > is a kingdom and city in Nepal.
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, Simranjit Singh Sandhu
            > > > <simranjits@>
            > > > > > > wrote:
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > Actually most Jatts are R1 or L1c(previously L3). So a J is
            > > > > > > interesting.
            > > > > > > > > On 26 Aug 2013 11:57, "sbgts2013" <raad11@> wrote:
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > > **
            > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > > My parents are Jatts from Pakistan. My father is Gill from his
            > > > > > > father (and
            > > > > > > > > > also has some Sandhu) and my mother is Pansota (and her mother
            > > > is
            > > > > > > > > > "Bahlam"). They're from around Faisalabad area.
            > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > > Paternal lineage is J2b2* and maternal lineage is M30b.
            > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > > J2b2* seems to fit Bhim Singh Dahiya's theory of Gills being
            > > > > > > descended
            > > > > > > > > > from Greeks or people further West than the other Jatt tribes.
            > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > > The ancestry composition results have not come in yet, I will
            > > > post
            > > > > > > again
            > > > > > > > > > with those results when they do.
            > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >

          • Singh - Jat
            How many Jats are L haplogroup?   Jats are R1aa1.   ________________________________ From: Simranjit Singh Sandhu To:
            Message 5 of 17 , Sep 10, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              How many Jats are L haplogroup?   Jats are R1aa1.  


              From: Simranjit Singh Sandhu <simranjits@...>
              To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 10:52 PM
              Subject: Re: [JatHistory] Re: results of my DNA test from 23andme

               
              I would be cautious to draw any conclusion of Greek admixture as the lack of e1 haplo amongst south Asian populations is quite telling,  being the major haplo for modern Greeks.
              On 26 Aug 2013 13:48, "sbgts2013" <raad11@...> wrote:
               
              Just to add, my parents' families are both Majha Jatts according to my grandmother.

              I also sent my results in to the Harappa ancestry project.

              Reading up on history a little and the J2b2* spread overlaps with the Indo-Greek and also the Mauryan kingdoms (which spread in the opposite direction). But since it is spread from the Y-Chromosome, it's unlikely to have come from Mauryan/Indian rulers marrying Greek women (which is well established history), it would have had to come from a male lineage that somehow spread in East India (I mistakenly wrote West repeatedly in my previous posts, I meant East) and is related to the other populations of the Balkans, Anatolia, Levant, and Arabia. The Indo-Greek incursions into East India make some sense then I suppose since this was after the Mauryan empire collapsed.

              The limited number of J2b2* matches in Punjab compared to Sindh and East India could be due to the fact that the Indo-Greek kingdoms were overrun by the invading Scythians barely a century later, who set up the Indo-Scythian kingdoms from which most Jatts are descended (the R and L haplogroups I imagine). Some of the remnants of the J2b2* population stuck it out and mixed with them I suppose.

              --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "sbgts2013" <raad11@...> wrote:
              >
              > Yes, I was expecting R or L, so I was really surprised. I put no stock in the Greek theory when I read about it on Wikipedia a long time ago but I guess there must be something to it. J2b2* is prominent in Balkan populations (Kosovo Albanians having 17%), some populations in Turkey, Iran, Pakistan, and also Nepal and South/West India, which overlaps with the reach of Indo-Greek kingdoms.
              >
              > http://www.flickr.com/photos/ydna-haplogroup-j2-m172/8675629333/
              >
              > If the J2b2* is from Bronze Age, before Alexander, that would indicate a Rajput origin from out West I presume. Also I heard the story that Gills are descended from a Rajput king of "Mithila", I looked it up and Mithila is a kingdom and city in Nepal.
              >
              > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, Simranjit Singh Sandhu <simranjits@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Actually most Jatts are R1 or L1c(previously L3). So a J is interesting.
              > > On 26 Aug 2013 11:57, "sbgts2013" <raad11@> wrote:
              > >
              > > > **
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > My parents are Jatts from Pakistan. My father is Gill from his father (and
              > > > also has some Sandhu) and my mother is Pansota (and her mother is
              > > > "Bahlam"). They're from around Faisalabad area.
              > > >
              > > > Paternal lineage is J2b2* and maternal lineage is M30b.
              > > >
              > > > J2b2* seems to fit Bhim Singh Dahiya's theory of Gills being descended
              > > > from Greeks or people further West than the other Jatt tribes.
              > > >
              > > > The ancestry composition results have not come in yet, I will post again
              > > > with those results when they do.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >



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