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Time frame for various ancient test

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  • nrao
    Since there was no posting, I thought I look some things up and see if we come up with a better date of ancient texts than asserted below. We find references
    Message 1 of 8 , May 5, 2013
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      Since there was no posting, I thought I look some things up and see if we come up with a better date of ancient texts than asserted below.
      We find references of ancient texts in numerous places much before Gupt vansh times.

      Arthashastra (dated to about 2400 years before present)

      अशा-०१.३.०१
      साम.ऋग्.यजुर्.वेदास् त्रयस् त्रयी ॥
      अशा-०१.३.०२
      अथर्व.वेद.इतिहास.वेदौ च वेदाः ॥
      अशा-०१.३.०३
      शिक्षा कल्पो व्याकरणं निरुक्तं छन्दो.विचितिर् ज्योतिषम् इति च_अङ्गानि ॥

      Chapter III
      THE three Vedas, Sama, Rik and Yajus, constitute the triple Vedas. These together with Atharvaveda and the Itihasaveda are (known as) the Vedas.

      Siksha (Phonetics), Kalpa (ceremonial injunctions), Vyakarana (grammar), Nirukta (glossarial explanation of obscure Vedic terms), Chandas (Prosody), and Astronomy form the Angas.


      Griha sutra (dated about 2500 years before present)
      ADHYAYA III KANDIKA 4.

      1. He satiates the deities: 'Pragapati, Brahman, the Vedas, the gods, the Rishis, all metres, the word
      Om ...

      2. 4. 'Sumantu, Gaimini, Vaisampayana, Paila, the Sutras, the Bhashyas, the Bharata, the Mahabharata, the teachers of law ...



      Chandogya Upnishad (dated to about 2800-2700 Before Present)

      Fourth Khand
      Om,’ superior to the three Vedas, the immortal refuge

      1.Om! One should reverence the Udgītha as this syllable, for one sings the loud chant [beginning] with ‘Om.’

      The further explanation thereof [is as follows].â€"

      2. Verily, the gods, when they were afraid of death, took refuge in the threefold knowledge [i.e. the three Vedas]. They covered (acchādayan) themselves with meters. Because they covered themselves with these, therefore the meters are called chandas.

      3. Death saw them there, in the Ṛic, in the Sāman, in the Yajus, just as one might see a fish in water. When they found this out, they arose out of the Ṛic, out of the Sāman, out of the Yajus, and took refuge in sound.

      4. Verily, when one finishes an Ṛic, he sounds out ‘Om’; similarly a Sāman; similarly a Yajus. This sound is that syllable.1 It is immortal, fearless. By taking refuge in it the gods became immortal, fearless.

      5. He who pronounces the syllable, knowing it thus, takes refuge in that syllable, in the immortal, fearless sound. Since the gods became immortal by taking refuge in it, therefore he becomes immortal.


      Seventh Prapathak
      First Khund

      1. Om! ‘Teach me, Sir!’ â€" with these words Nārada came to Sanatkumāra.

      To him he then said: ‘Come to me with what you know. Then I will tell you still further.’

      2. Then he said to him: ‘Sir, I know the Rig-Veda, the Yajur-Veda, the Sāma-Veda, the Atharva-Veda as the fourth, Legend and Ancient Lore (itihāsa-purāṇa) as the fifth, the Veda of the Vedas [i.e. Grammar], Rites for the Manes, Mathematics, Augury (daiva), Chronology, Logic, Polity, the Science of the Gods (deva-vidyā), the Science of Sacred Knowledge (brahma-vidyā), Demonology (bhūta-vidyā), Military Science (kṣatra-vidyā), Astrology (nakṣatra-vidyā), the Science of Snake-charming, and the Fine Arts (sarpa-devajana-vidyā).
      This, Sir, I know.

      3. Such a one am I, Sir, knowing the sacred sayings (mantra-vid), but not knowing the Soul (Ātman). It has been heard by me from those who are like you, Sir, that he who knows the Soul (Ātman) crosses over sorrow. Such a sorrowing one am I, Sir. Do you, Sir, cause me, who am such a one, to cross over to the other side of sorrow.’

      To him he then said: ‘Verily, whatever you have here learned, verily, that is mere name (nāman).

      4. Verily, a Name are the Rig-Veda, the Yajur-Veda, the Sāma-Veda, the Atharva-Veda as the fourth, Legend and Ancient Lore (itihāsa-purāṇa) as the fifth, the Veda of the Vedas [i.e. Grammar], Rites for the Manes, Mathematics, Augury (daiva), Chronology, Logic, Polity, the Science of the Gods (deva-vidyā), the Science of Sacred Knowledge (brahma-vidyā), Demonology (bhūta-vidyā), Military Science (kṣatra-vidyā), Astrology (nakṣatra-vidyā), the Science of Snake-charming, and the Fine Arts (sarpa-devajana-vidyā). This is mere Name. Reverence Name.


      Apart from above, I thought this was interesting as well from Arthashastra where students are advised to study lipi:

      अशा-०१.५.०७
      वृत्त.चौल.कर्मा लिपिं संख्यानं च_उपयुञ्जीत ॥
      Having undergone the ceremony of tonsure, the student shall learn the alphabet (lipi) and arithmetic.


      -Naveen


      --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "nrao" <nrao2@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > Interesting assertion. Do you think anything was composed prior to this time frame, Gupt vansh. What do you think of Kautilya's Arthashastra, or Panini's works like Asthadhyayi, what about Upnishad? What time frame would you provide for such works?
      >
      > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "urmila" <uduhan@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Dear All,
      > >
      > > The so called ancient texts i.e., the vedas, ramayan, mahabharta etc we're written during the Gupta period (3 rd century to 5th century A.D). These texts are supposedly describing events that happened few thousand years ago. And their content gets modified from writer to writer. In such a scenario, their content cannot be taken as historical proof of events having occurred as described in them.
      > >
      > > Regards,
      > >
      > > Urmila.
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "msanglikar" <jainway@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Who Was Krishna?
      > > >
      > > > Krishna is the main character of Mahabharat, the famous and popular epic of India. It is considered as a holy Hindu book, but it is a collection of several fables. It has nothing to do with any specific religion. Further, Mahabharat was compiled after Vardhaman Mahaveer and Gautam Buddha.
      > > >
      > > > Vedics were in search of an ancient Kshatriya (Warrior Class) personality popular in masses to use for safeguarding their interests. They choose Krishna, declared him a God, and spread Geeta from his mouth. They wanted a Kshatriya personality because the Shramanic religions promoted by Vardhaman Mahaveer and Gautam Buddha were popular in warrior class.
      > > >
      > > > Geeta itself was written in reign of Gupts, who were supporters of Vedic religion. Geeta is a separate text, and it is not a part of Mahabharat. As Vedics have a fondness of violence from the beginning, the Geeta is nothing but a book promoting war against own people.
      > > >
      > > > There is no doubt that Krishna was a non-vedic person, belonging to Yadavs, who were enemies for the Vedics. If you take a deep look of Krishna's life, you will find that Krishna was a black, as the Yadavs were, and he defeated Vedic Gods like Indra and Varun.
      > > >
      > > > Then what was the religious tradition of Krishna?
      > > >
      > > > About Yadu People
      > > >
      > > > Before throwing light on the religious tradition of Krishna, let us know about the Yadav people. I have mentioned above that Yadavs were non-Vedics, and the Vedics always described them as enemies.
      > > >
      > > > According to advocate P.R. Deshmukh, one of the great scholars of Indology and Indus Valley Civilization, writes:
      > > >
      > > > According to Vedic literature, Yadus were one of the Panch Jan (five group of people), and were not eligible to become a King. Most of the Yadus were follower of Jainism. Vasudev, the father of Krishna was mostly a Jain. ..... It is not just a co-incidence that Where ever there were strong holds of Yadus, there we find some of the oldest remains of Jains.*
      > > >
      > > > Further he writes, Worshiping Krishna by Vedic Hindus is a later thing, and it is influenced by Jainism. This worship prohibits use of meat and alcohol by the devotees.
      > > >
      > > > * Examples: Mathura, Shauripur, Hastinapur etc.
      > > > Krishna in Jainism
      > > >
      > > > As I have described above that Krishna was not a Vedic personality, the only religious tradition of him could be Shramanic. Jainism and Buddhism were two Shramanic religions in ancient India. As Buddhism was founded by Gautam Buddha in 6th Century B.C.E, and the estimated time period of Krishna is 10th century B.C.E., there is no question of Krishna being from Buddhist tradition. Further, there are no references to Krishna in Buddhist literature.
      > > >
      > > > On the contrary, Jainism is much older than Buddhism, and even than Vedic religion as we can trace roots of Jainism in Indus Valley civilization.
      > > >
      > > > Krishna enjoys a special position in Jainism. He is the elder cousin of Aritthanemi, the 22nd ford maker of Jainism. He is a half Chakravarti (Semi Emperor), and one of the 63 great personalities of Jain literature. Further, according to Jainism, he will be a ford maker (Teerthankar) in next cycle of Teerthankars.
      > > >
      > > > Interestingly, not only Krishna, but his father Vasudev, brother Balaram and cousin Arritthnemi also are in the Jain list of 63 great personalities. Further, a Jain book Vasudevhindi is fully dedicated to Vasudev, father of Krishna.
      > > >
      > > > According to modern research, sage Ghor Angiras was spiritual teacher of Krishna, and he was no one else but Arritthanemi.
      > > >
      > > > References to Krishna in Jain literature go back to ancient period. Antagadadasao, an aagamic text of Jainism first gives detailed biography of Krishna. Further, his biography is given in Trishasti Shalaka Purush, a popular text of Jainism.
      > > >
      > > > All these facts prove that Krishna was from ancient Jain tradition.
      > > >
      > > > -Mahavir Sanglikar
      > > >
      > > > References:
      > > >
      > > > 1. Indus Civilization, Rigved and Hindu Culture by P.R. Deshmukh
      > > > 2. Trishasti Shalaka Purush (Jain Agamic Text)
      > > > 3. Hindu Dharmache Shaiv Rahasya: Sanjay Sonawani
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • nrao
      Just a clarification. The word Itihas, as used in ancient texts is used for Ramayan and Mahabharat. -Naveen
      Message 2 of 8 , May 5, 2013
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        Just a clarification. The word Itihas, as used in ancient texts is used for Ramayan and Mahabharat.

        -Naveen

        --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "nrao" <nrao2@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Since there was no posting, I thought I look some things up and see if we come up with a better date of ancient texts than asserted below.
        > We find references of ancient texts in numerous places much before Gupt vansh times.
        >
        > Arthashastra (dated to about 2400 years before present)
        >
        > अशा-०१.३.०१
        > साम.ऋग्.यजुर्.वेदास् त्रयस् त्रयी ॥
        > अशा-०१.३.०२
        > अथर्व.वेद.इतिहास.वेदौ च वेदाः ॥
        > अशा-०१.३.०३
        > शिक्षा कल्पो व्याकरणं निरुक्तं छन्दो.विचितिर् ज्योतिषम् इति च_अङ्गानि ॥
        >
        > Chapter III
        > THE three Vedas, Sama, Rik and Yajus, constitute the triple Vedas. These together with Atharvaveda and the Itihasaveda are (known as) the Vedas.
        >
        > Siksha (Phonetics), Kalpa (ceremonial injunctions), Vyakarana (grammar), Nirukta (glossarial explanation of obscure Vedic terms), Chandas (Prosody), and Astronomy form the Angas.
        >
        >
        > Griha sutra (dated about 2500 years before present)
        > ADHYAYA III KANDIKA 4.
        >
        > 1. He satiates the deities: 'Pragapati, Brahman, the Vedas, the gods, the Rishis, all metres, the word
        > Om ...
        >
        > 2. 4. 'Sumantu, Gaimini, Vaisampayana, Paila, the Sutras, the Bhashyas, the Bharata, the Mahabharata, the teachers of law ...
        >
        >
        >
        > Chandogya Upnishad (dated to about 2800-2700 Before Present)
        >
        > Fourth Khand
        > Om,’ superior to the three Vedas, the immortal refuge
        >
        > 1.Om! One should reverence the Udgītha as this syllable, for one sings the loud chant [beginning] with ‘Om.’
        >
        > The further explanation thereof [is as follows].â€"
        >
        > 2. Verily, the gods, when they were afraid of death, took refuge in the threefold knowledge [i.e. the three Vedas]. They covered (acchādayan) themselves with meters. Because they covered themselves with these, therefore the meters are called chandas.
        >
        > 3. Death saw them there, in the Ṛic, in the Sāman, in the Yajus, just as one might see a fish in water. When they found this out, they arose out of the Ṛic, out of the Sāman, out of the Yajus, and took refuge in sound.
        >
        > 4. Verily, when one finishes an Ṛic, he sounds out ‘Om’; similarly a Sāman; similarly a Yajus. This sound is that syllable.1 It is immortal, fearless. By taking refuge in it the gods became immortal, fearless.
        >
        > 5. He who pronounces the syllable, knowing it thus, takes refuge in that syllable, in the immortal, fearless sound. Since the gods became immortal by taking refuge in it, therefore he becomes immortal.
        >
        >
        > Seventh Prapathak
        > First Khund
        >
        > 1. Om! ‘Teach me, Sir!’ â€" with these words Nārada came to Sanatkumāra.
        >
        > To him he then said: ‘Come to me with what you know. Then I will tell you still further.’
        >
        > 2. Then he said to him: ‘Sir, I know the Rig-Veda, the Yajur-Veda, the Sāma-Veda, the Atharva-Veda as the fourth, Legend and Ancient Lore (itihāsa-purāṇa) as the fifth, the Veda of the Vedas [i.e. Grammar], Rites for the Manes, Mathematics, Augury (daiva), Chronology, Logic, Polity, the Science of the Gods (deva-vidyā), the Science of Sacred Knowledge (brahma-vidyā), Demonology (bhūta-vidyā), Military Science (kṣatra-vidyā), Astrology (nakṣatra-vidyā), the Science of Snake-charming, and the Fine Arts (sarpa-devajana-vidyā).
        > This, Sir, I know.
        >
        > 3. Such a one am I, Sir, knowing the sacred sayings (mantra-vid), but not knowing the Soul (Ātman). It has been heard by me from those who are like you, Sir, that he who knows the Soul (Ātman) crosses over sorrow. Such a sorrowing one am I, Sir. Do you, Sir, cause me, who am such a one, to cross over to the other side of sorrow.’
        >
        > To him he then said: ‘Verily, whatever you have here learned, verily, that is mere name (nāman).
        >
        > 4. Verily, a Name are the Rig-Veda, the Yajur-Veda, the Sāma-Veda, the Atharva-Veda as the fourth, Legend and Ancient Lore (itihāsa-purāṇa) as the fifth, the Veda of the Vedas [i.e. Grammar], Rites for the Manes, Mathematics, Augury (daiva), Chronology, Logic, Polity, the Science of the Gods (deva-vidyā), the Science of Sacred Knowledge (brahma-vidyā), Demonology (bhūta-vidyā), Military Science (kṣatra-vidyā), Astrology (nakṣatra-vidyā), the Science of Snake-charming, and the Fine Arts (sarpa-devajana-vidyā). This is mere Name. Reverence Name.
        >
        >
        > Apart from above, I thought this was interesting as well from Arthashastra where students are advised to study lipi:
        >
        > अशा-०१.५.०७
        > वृत्त.चौल.कर्मा लिपिं संख्यानं च_उपयुञ्जीत ॥
        > Having undergone the ceremony of tonsure, the student shall learn the alphabet (lipi) and arithmetic.
        >
        >
        > -Naveen
        >
        >
        > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "nrao" <nrao2@> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Interesting assertion. Do you think anything was composed prior to this time frame, Gupt vansh. What do you think of Kautilya's Arthashastra, or Panini's works like Asthadhyayi, what about Upnishad? What time frame would you provide for such works?
        > >
        > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "urmila" <uduhan@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Dear All,
        > > >
        > > > The so called ancient texts i.e., the vedas, ramayan, mahabharta etc we're written during the Gupta period (3 rd century to 5th century A.D). These texts are supposedly describing events that happened few thousand years ago. And their content gets modified from writer to writer. In such a scenario, their content cannot be taken as historical proof of events having occurred as described in them.
        > > >
        > > > Regards,
        > > >
        > > > Urmila.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "msanglikar" <jainway@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Who Was Krishna?
        > > > >
        > > > > Krishna is the main character of Mahabharat, the famous and popular epic of India. It is considered as a holy Hindu book, but it is a collection of several fables. It has nothing to do with any specific religion. Further, Mahabharat was compiled after Vardhaman Mahaveer and Gautam Buddha.
        > > > >
        > > > > Vedics were in search of an ancient Kshatriya (Warrior Class) personality popular in masses to use for safeguarding their interests. They choose Krishna, declared him a God, and spread Geeta from his mouth. They wanted a Kshatriya personality because the Shramanic religions promoted by Vardhaman Mahaveer and Gautam Buddha were popular in warrior class.
        > > > >
        > > > > Geeta itself was written in reign of Gupts, who were supporters of Vedic religion. Geeta is a separate text, and it is not a part of Mahabharat. As Vedics have a fondness of violence from the beginning, the Geeta is nothing but a book promoting war against own people.
        > > > >
        > > > > There is no doubt that Krishna was a non-vedic person, belonging to Yadavs, who were enemies for the Vedics. If you take a deep look of Krishna's life, you will find that Krishna was a black, as the Yadavs were, and he defeated Vedic Gods like Indra and Varun.
        > > > >
        > > > > Then what was the religious tradition of Krishna?
        > > > >
        > > > > About Yadu People
        > > > >
        > > > > Before throwing light on the religious tradition of Krishna, let us know about the Yadav people. I have mentioned above that Yadavs were non-Vedics, and the Vedics always described them as enemies.
        > > > >
        > > > > According to advocate P.R. Deshmukh, one of the great scholars of Indology and Indus Valley Civilization, writes:
        > > > >
        > > > > According to Vedic literature, Yadus were one of the Panch Jan (five group of people), and were not eligible to become a King. Most of the Yadus were follower of Jainism. Vasudev, the father of Krishna was mostly a Jain. ..... It is not just a co-incidence that Where ever there were strong holds of Yadus, there we find some of the oldest remains of Jains.*
        > > > >
        > > > > Further he writes, Worshiping Krishna by Vedic Hindus is a later thing, and it is influenced by Jainism. This worship prohibits use of meat and alcohol by the devotees.
        > > > >
        > > > > * Examples: Mathura, Shauripur, Hastinapur etc.
        > > > > Krishna in Jainism
        > > > >
        > > > > As I have described above that Krishna was not a Vedic personality, the only religious tradition of him could be Shramanic. Jainism and Buddhism were two Shramanic religions in ancient India. As Buddhism was founded by Gautam Buddha in 6th Century B.C.E, and the estimated time period of Krishna is 10th century B.C.E., there is no question of Krishna being from Buddhist tradition. Further, there are no references to Krishna in Buddhist literature.
        > > > >
        > > > > On the contrary, Jainism is much older than Buddhism, and even than Vedic religion as we can trace roots of Jainism in Indus Valley civilization.
        > > > >
        > > > > Krishna enjoys a special position in Jainism. He is the elder cousin of Aritthanemi, the 22nd ford maker of Jainism. He is a half Chakravarti (Semi Emperor), and one of the 63 great personalities of Jain literature. Further, according to Jainism, he will be a ford maker (Teerthankar) in next cycle of Teerthankars.
        > > > >
        > > > > Interestingly, not only Krishna, but his father Vasudev, brother Balaram and cousin Arritthnemi also are in the Jain list of 63 great personalities. Further, a Jain book Vasudevhindi is fully dedicated to Vasudev, father of Krishna.
        > > > >
        > > > > According to modern research, sage Ghor Angiras was spiritual teacher of Krishna, and he was no one else but Arritthanemi.
        > > > >
        > > > > References to Krishna in Jain literature go back to ancient period. Antagadadasao, an aagamic text of Jainism first gives detailed biography of Krishna. Further, his biography is given in Trishasti Shalaka Purush, a popular text of Jainism.
        > > > >
        > > > > All these facts prove that Krishna was from ancient Jain tradition.
        > > > >
        > > > > -Mahavir Sanglikar
        > > > >
        > > > > References:
        > > > >
        > > > > 1. Indus Civilization, Rigved and Hindu Culture by P.R. Deshmukh
        > > > > 2. Trishasti Shalaka Purush (Jain Agamic Text)
        > > > > 3. Hindu Dharmache Shaiv Rahasya: Sanjay Sonawani
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • ravichaudhary2000
        Ithihaas is alos used in the Puranas, as history
        Message 3 of 8 , May 5, 2013
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          Ithihaas is alos used in the Puranas, as 'history'

          --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "nrao" <nrao2@...> wrote:
          >
          > Just a clarification. The word Itihas, as used in ancient texts is used for Ramayan and Mahabharat.
          >
          > -Naveen
          >
        • dr.rajpalsingh
          ... Sincerely, Dr.Raj Pal Singh
          Message 4 of 8 , May 11, 2013
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            > The antiquity of the Ramayana and Mahabharata goes to several centuries before the start of Christian Era. Dr. Keith in his Classical Sanskrit Literature has also said about the historicity of Ramayana and Mahabharata: "Apart from the question of language, there is now abundant evidence to show that the Epics existed in some form in Sanskrit before Panini, and that the idea of translation about Christian era is wholly untenable."

            Sincerely,

            Dr.Raj Pal Singh
          • nrao
            There are two issues. First this line between Itihasa and Purana is not very clear, at least to me. Most places the two bodies of ancient epics and literature
            Message 5 of 8 , May 12, 2013
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              There are two issues.

              First this line between Itihasa and Purana is not very clear, at least to me. Most places the two bodies of ancient epics and literature are termed, puranaitihasa or itihasa-purna. Only some places they are referred to as separately. Perhaps, Itihasa refers to events which are narrated or recorded as they happened (Iti.hasa - as it was or so it happened). Purana, perhaps talk of events in earlier times.

              I found these quote from MBh which corroborate MBh as 'Itihasa' -

              MBh: 18.5.31 -

              पुण्यॊ ऽयम इतिहासाख्यः पवित्रं चेदम उत्तमम
              कृष्णेन मुनिना विप्र नियतं सत्यवादिना

              Called a history, it is sacred, sanctifying and excellent. It has been composed by the ascetic Krishna, O Brahmana, of truthful speech.

              18.5.42-43 -

              42 - नारदॊ ऽशरावयद देवान असितॊ देवलः पितॄन
              रक्षॊयक्षाञ शुकॊ मर्त्यान वैशम्पायन एव तु
              43 - इतिहासम इमं पुण्यं महार्थं वेद संमितम
              शरावयेद यस तु वर्णांस तरीन कृत्वा बराह्मणम अग्रतः

              Narada recited the Mahabharata to the gods; Asita-Devala to the Pitris; Suka to the Rakshasas and the Yakshas; and Vaishampayana to human beings. This history is sacred, and of high import, and regarded as equal to the Vedas. That man, O Saunaka, who hears this history, placing a Brahmana before him, acquires both fame and the fruition of all his wishes.

              Second issue is the timeline, which is even more complicated. The timeline that I provided in previous posting of Chandogya Upnishad is conventional dateline and appears as arbitrarily set by early Orientalists. These dates are seldom questioned and it seems that some passages may be earlier than the orientalist assigned conventional date of 8th century BCE.

              We need somebody better than me like Ishwa or Dr Rana, who can help regarding both of these issues.

              -Naveen

              --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "ravichaudhary2000" <ravichaudhary2000@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Ithihaas is alos used in the Puranas, as 'history'
              >
              > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "nrao" <nrao2@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Just a clarification. The word Itihas, as used in ancient texts is used for Ramayan and Mahabharat.
              > >
              > > -Naveen
              > >
              >
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