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Re: Developing a History of Indian civilization

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  • urmila
    Can you present this so called evidence to ASI and have them agree? Regards, Urmila.
    Message 1 of 17 , Apr 25, 2013
      Can you present this so called evidence to ASI and have them agree?

      Regards,

      Urmila.

      --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "nrao" <nrao2@...> wrote:
      >
      > Do you still maintain that there is no archaeological evidence between 1800 - 600 BCE even after all these digs?
      >
      > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "urmila" <uduhan@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Dear Naveen,
      > >
      > > The ASI maintains that there is not enough material, both sculpturally and documentarily, to construct history of the time period between 1800 B.C.E and until the arrival of Jainism in India. This period is therefore sort of called the dark ages. The ASI maintains that perhaps the epic tales, the vedas etc got created during this time. But their transmission, if they truly got created, is at best described as oral transmission. Easentially, what this means is nothing can be said what happened on the Indian subcomtinent during the so called dark ages. Hence, I doubt you are bringing forward material worth considering.
      > >
      > > Regards,
      > >
      > > Urmila.
      > >
      > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "nrao" <nrao2@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > woh isliye, kyonki aapne likha tha:
      > > >
      > > > "It is for the historians and time to decipher what
      > > > happened in the Indian subcontinent between 1800 b.c.e and 500 b.c.e as there is hardly any ( and that is quite surprising) archaelogical, or authentic documentary evidence of this period."
      > > >
      > > > You mentioned that "... there is hardly any (and that is quite surprising) archaelogical evidence of this period", hence I provided some material that there is ample evidence. That paper that I provided lists 46 sites but a quick search will yield between 500-700 archaeological sites which have been excavated that belong to the period 1800 - 500 bce.
      > > >
      > > > These sites are all over India and not just north-west or Gangetic plains, including peninsular India, eastern part and extreme north.
      > > > Dr Upendir Singh in her book mentions some 300+ plus sites between Ganga and Satluj area, if I recall.
      > > >
      > > > I did not mean to offend you.
      > > >
      > > > -Naveen
      > > >
      > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "urmila" <uduhan@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > With all due respect, how did you reach the conclusion that I am not familiar with various excavations from the time period you
      > > > > state?
      > > > >
      > > > > Regards,
      > > > >
      > > > > Urmila.
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "nrao" <nrao2@> wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Mere vichar se aapki baaton mein kuch khas dum nahin hai.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I think you are not familiar with various excavations associated times which are 2500-4000 years before present.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Please get acquainted with Late Harappan ware Painted Grey Ware culture (PGW), Black Ware (BW), Black and Red Ware (BRW) which is considered post Harappan, if there is anything like Post Harappan or Sarawati-Sindhu that all.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Its dating is 3800 before present and later. So excavations have been going on for decades but you are not aware of it.
      > > > > > B B Lal had associated PGW with about 30 excavated site. Later archaeologies added more sites to the PGW culture.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > PGW is sometimes associated with iron age cultures in India. Following paper mentions 46 such sites:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > http://www.academia.edu/692881/Re-evaluation_of_the_pottery_sequence_in_north_India_during_the_first_millennium_BC
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Cunnigham had nothing do with any excavations of Harappa or Mohenjo Daro, I think. He died in 1893 and the first Indus site, Harappa was excavated in 1922, almost 30 years after this death.
      > > > > > Cunningham did write about some seal or seals discovered from this area while the area was being dug up to build railroad.
      > > > > > Even if, as you state it British 'give the old Civilization a lit up face, Marshall, who was director of ASI and was part
      > > > > > of the team that excavated the first site at Harappa was a proponent of Aryan Invasion theory and stayed that way for a long time.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Once again, aapki baton mein jayada dum nahin hai.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "urmila" <uduhan@> wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Dear All,
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > I think, it is important to choose appropriate words so that ghost facts do not get perpetuated. For example, there is no factual evidence that the so called aryans 'invaded' the Indian subcontinent. If at all, they existed and did come to India, why not accept them as a migration event that lead to a peaceful settlement in this area? There is no evidence to support the invasion and destruction of the Indus Valley Civilization. It was a highly developed Civilization as evidenced from their knowledge of metal processing (eg., lost wax technique), town planning, sewage system, burial methods, respected position of women in society etc. It is for the historians and time to decipher what happened in the Indian subcontinent between 1800 b.c.e and 500 b.c.e as there is hardly any ( and that is quite surprising) archaelogical, or authentic documentary evidence of this period. But that does not mean an Invasion took place!
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > It was under the British that excavation of Indus Valley Sites was taken up and the then director of ASI (Cunningham, I believe) was instrumental in giving Indus Valley discovery a world stage. In addition to Indians, many dedicated archaeologists and excavators from Europe were instrumental in working on the sites and helped give the old Civilization a lit up face.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Regards,
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Urmila.
      > > > > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "ravichaudhary2000" <ravichaudhary2000@> wrote:
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Until recently the history of the Indian subcontinent has been seen
      > > > > > > > through Colonial eyes. The history is one of Invasions by outsiders,
      > > > > > > > including the so called Aryans, followed by practically everyone.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > The latest were the British, who pushed the Aryan Invasion theory( AIT)
      > > > > > > > for their political ends
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > The discovery of the Harappan civilization , was fobbed off as a dead
      > > > > > > > civilization, destroyed by the invading aryans.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Today modern researches in archeology, show that a vast civilization
      > > > > > > > existed , that spread all over the Indian sub-continent, and was larger
      > > > > > > > , much larger than the much acclaimed civilization of Mesopotamia(
      > > > > > > > modern Iraq, Syria etc).
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > If the History of this subcontinent was to written from scratch, the
      > > > > > > > starting point would be this civilization, and the evolution of the
      > > > > > > > history to current times.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Astronomy here plays a vital role, in determining chronology, as
      > > > > > > > references to astronomical events, lead us to dates that are well into
      > > > > > > > the 4500 to 6000 BCE period.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > The discovery of observatories in these archeological finds confirm that
      > > > > > > > the ancients were used to making astronomical observations and recording
      > > > > > > > the, They used these observation to develop calendars, which they used
      > > > > > > > to regulate their lives- predict spring, summer, winter, rains, etc.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Those who spend their time , living in the shadow of colonial witiers ,
      > > > > > > > and ignore the new scientific evidences, are poorer for it.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Ravi Chaudhary
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > sarojbala.blogspot.ca/2012/06/my-book.html
      > > > > > > > Sunday, June 17, 2012 Our Latest Book
      > > > > > > > <http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vZInSGpAZtw/T92H0zgS_JI/AAAAAAAAAL0/KyD7odjUs\
      > > > > > > > dM/s1600/Book+Cover_11+May+2012+-+Copy.jpg> The Book seeks to
      > > > > > > > answer following questions-
      > > > > > > > Is it time to rewrite the true history of the world, particularly of the
      > > > > > > > Indian subcontinent, on purely scientific basis ignoring the linguistic
      > > > > > > > guesswork and the religious beliefs?
      > > > > > > > Can the Planetary Configurations mentioned in Vedas, Epics and other
      > > > > > > > ancient books be used to determine the exact dates of events mentioned
      > > > > > > > therein?
      > > > > > > > Was Lord Ram a real historical character? If yes, when did he travel
      > > > > > > > from Ayodhya to Sri Lanka to bring succor to millions of innocent and
      > > > > > > > suffering Indians?
      > > > > > > > Do the planetary references in Valmiki Ramayan refer to the exclusive
      > > > > > > > sky views, generated by planetarium software, seen sequentially around
      > > > > > > > 5000 BC?
      > > > > > > > Was Ramsethu a walkable bridge in 5000 BC as per sea level curve
      > > > > > > > prepared by the oceanographers of the world?
      > > > > > > > Do the recent archaeological excavations in Sringaverpura, Allahabad,
      > > > > > > > Lahuradeva, Jhussi and Mehrgarh etc. support the references to flora,
      > > > > > > > fauna and weaponary in Ramayan?
      > > > > > > > Does the description of some unique places referred to in Ramayan match
      > > > > > > > <http://sarojbala.blogspot.ca/2012/06/my-book.html#> the geographic and
      > > > > > > > geological features of some recently discovered places like Kotumsar
      > > > > > > > caves in Dandak Van and caves of Chitrakoot.
      > > > > > > > Are some of the plants, trees and herbs referred to in Ramayan found in
      > > > > > > > existence in India continuously during last more than 5000 tears?
      > > > > > > > Did Saraswati River actually flow from the Himalayas to the Sea and was
      > > > > > > > it really a mighty river in 5000 BC?
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > An Introduction to the Book Historicity of Vedic and Ramayan Eras - an
      > > > > > > > abridged editions
      > > > > > > > 1. Astronomical Dating
      > > > > > > > <http://sarojbala.blogspot.ca/2012/06/my-book.html#> of planetary
      > > > > > > > references in ancient books combined with the multidisciplinary and
      > > > > > > > purely scientific research reports, summarised in the Book, prima facie
      > > > > > > > establish that history of civilisation of the world, particularly of
      > > > > > > > Indian Subcontinent, after the last ice age, is much older than what is
      > > > > > > > being taught in schools and colleges. The premise, that in 1500 BC India
      > > > > > > > was civilized by the Aryan invaders from Central Asia, is based only on
      > > > > > > > linguistic guesswork and religious hearsay and has no scientific basis.
      > > > > > > > Most of the scientific research reports have proved that indigenous
      > > > > > > > civilisation has been developing in India for last more than 10,000
      > > > > > > > years. Since these reports are neither being included in school/college
      > > > > > > > books nor are normally being reported in print and electronic
      > > > > > > > <http://sarojbala.blogspot.ca/2012/06/my-book.html#> media, therefore
      > > > > > > > 99 % of Indians are unaware of 99 % of factual findings contained in
      > > > > > > > such research reports. As the readers will go through the contents of
      > > > > > > > this book, they would probably find it rather difficult to absorb some
      > > > > > > > of the outcomes of scientific research reports which disprove many of
      > > > > > > > their beliefs known from their school days! Their inquisitive minds will
      > > > > > > > seek answers to many more questions; if even some of these questions get
      > > > > > > > answered in a credible and convincing manner, the objective of
      > > > > > > > publishing this book would stand achieved:
      > > > > > > > (i) The astronomical dates of planetary references in
      > > > > > > > ancient Sanskrit books, calculated so far by using planetarium
      > > > > > > > softwares, indicate the development of an indigenous civilization in
      > > > > > > > India from dates even prior to 6000 BC. Astronomical references in
      > > > > > > > Rigveda represent the sky view of dates belonging to the period 8000 BC
      > > > > > > > to 4000 BC and those mentioned in Valmiki Ramayan refer to sky views
      > > > > > > > seen sequentially on dates around 5100 BC. Were these dates exclusive
      > > > > > > > and did these matches sequentially?
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > <http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-0vj1Hk6sW5s/T93N9qe_vNI/AAAAAAAAAN4/nGP4wR8fC\
      > > > > > > > ds/s1600/seminar+memento.jpg>
      > > > > > > > (ii) The ecological references in ancient books,
      > > > > > > > especially those relating to melting of glaciers and fluctuations in
      > > > > > > > water volumes of ancient rivers seem to corroborate such astronomical
      > > > > > > > dates. Remote Sensing images taken by ISRO, corroborated by
      > > > > > > > sedimentology, hydrogeology and drilling data, have revealed that a
      > > > > > > > mighty river system was flowing around 6000 BC from Himalayas to Rann
      > > > > > > > of Kachchh, passing through Himachal Pradesh, Punjab, Haryana and
      > > > > > > > Rajasthan, exactly matching the descriptions of Saraswati in the Vedas
      > > > > > > > and Epics. What name could be given to this river system, if not
      > > > > > > > Saraswati?
      > > > > > > > (iii) Recent research reports on paleoclimatic changes have
      > > > > > > > revealed that, after the last ice age and in the beginning of the
      > > > > > > > Holocene, the glaciers naturally first melted near the equator i.e. in
      > > > > > > > Sri Lanka and south India, and civilisation started developing on the
      > > > > > > > banks of the rivers which started flowing there. When populations
      > > > > > > > multiplied, these river waters became insufficient and some more
      > > > > > > > adventurous people started travelling from south to north. Such
      > > > > > > > northward migration continued for several centuries and finally when
      > > > > > > > these people reached the banks of Himalayan Rivers, they got climatic
      > > > > > > > conditions conducive to long term development of civilisation on the
      > > > > > > > banks of these rivers providing security of water, food and shelter.
      > > > > > > > Thousands of years later, when some of these Himalayan rivers became
      > > > > > > > non-perennial or started drying up, some of these people moved towards
      > > > > > > > Central Asia, West Asia and Europe. As per ecologists, this ecological
      > > > > > > > cycle has been repeating itself and will get repeated after every ice
      > > > > > > > age. So did any Aryans really come from Central Asia to civilise the
      > > > > > > > people of India or the dispersal probably happened the other way round?
      > > > > > > > (iv) The oceanographic reports on fluctuations of water
      > > > > > > > levels in the oceans have revealed the existence of many coastal
      > > > > > > > archaeological sites, either submerged or now found land locked, dated
      > > > > > > > from 7500 BC onwards e.g. a Neolithic site near Hazira, Dholavira, Juni
      > > > > > > > Kuran, Surkotda, Prabhas Patan and Dwarka in Gujarat. Do these reports
      > > > > > > > corroborate the astronomical dating of those ancient events with which
      > > > > > > > these places are connected in our Epics?
      > > > > > > > (v) The paleobotanic research reports have reported that
      > > > > > > > certain cultivated varieties of plants, trees and herbs, which are
      > > > > > > > mentioned in Vedas and Epics, have existed in India continuously for
      > > > > > > > more than 8000-10,000 years. Since these remained in use continuously,
      > > > > > > > was there any abrupt end of ancient Indian civilisation as is normally
      > > > > > > > believed?
      > > > > > > > (vi) The anthropological research reports have established
      > > > > > > > that DNA dating for Paleolithic continuity starts from 60,000 BC. The
      > > > > > > > Genome studies during the Holocene have revealed that the genetic
      > > > > > > > profile of humans settled in north, south, east and west of India is the
      > > > > > > > same and has remained the same for the last more than 11000 years and
      > > > > > > > that it does not match the genetic profile of people from Central Asia
      > > > > > > > or Europe. Therefore, contrary to the popular belief, do the Dravidians,
      > > > > > > > tribals, as well as the north Indians have common ancestors?
      > > > > > > > (vii) The latest archaeological excavations have revealed a
      > > > > > > > large volume of data which has proved the indigenous origin and
      > > > > > > > development of civilisation in the Indian Subcontinent since 7000 BC.
      > > > > > > > Some examples are: Mehrgarh, Kot Diji and Nausharo in the northwest;
      > > > > > > > Lothal and Dholavira in the west; Lahuradeva, Jhusi, Tokwa and Hetapatti
      > > > > > > > in the east. Is archaeology also supporting the astronomical, ecological
      > > > > > > > and anthropological conclusions that Aryans were originals of India, who
      > > > > > > > have been developing an indigenous civilisation in India for last more
      > > > > > > > than 10,000 years?
      > > > > > > > <http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-M5JPzaS-4Z0/T93QaYSMY0I/AAAAAAAAAOE/upnVu0A92\
      > > > > > > > LQ/s1600/Fig+5CD.jpg>
      > > > > > > > 2. This methodology of multi disciplinary scientific
      > > > > > > > research was applied in some greater detail by the Director of I-SERVE
      > > > > > > > Delhi Chapter for dating the era of Lord Ram. The results were
      > > > > > > > outstanding, rather amazing; these are included in the form of an
      > > > > > > > article in this compilation. The planetary references in Valmiki Ramayan
      > > > > > > > refer to exclusive and sequential sky views seen around 5100 BC. The
      > > > > > > > corroboration of these date sequences by archaeological, genealogical,
      > > > > > > > anthropological, paleobotanical, geological, ecological, oceanographic
      > > > > > > > and remote sensing evidences makes these conclusions so credible and so
      > > > > > > > convincing that we are persuaded to rethink if we were right in
      > > > > > > > considering Lord Ram as a mythological character!
      > > > > > > > 3. The world has come a long way after the old Christian
      > > > > > > > belief that the earth was created on 23rd October, 4004 BC and therefore
      > > > > > > > events relating to the period earlier than that had to be treated as
      > > > > > > > mythology. The beginnings of the Holocene are now placed around 12000 BC
      > > > > > > > by pushing these back by about three thousand years. Therefore the
      > > > > > > > history of the development of civilization of the world post last ice
      > > > > > > > age has to start at least 11,000 years ago. Consequently not only the
      > > > > > > > history of India but also the history of the whole world has to be
      > > > > > > > re-constructed based on such multidisciplinary scientific evidences. As
      > > > > > > > a result not only Ramayan and Mahabharat but also epics like Iliad and
      > > > > > > > Odyssey are likely to shift from the realm of mythology to the realm of
      > > > > > > > history. This research project and the first seminar on the subject mark
      > > > > > > > the beginning of this new idea.
      > > > > > > > 4. In future, the Universities of the world may not place
      > > > > > > > History as a subject under Faculty of Social Sciences or of Arts, but
      > > > > > > > this subject deserves to be placed under the Faculty of Sciences. Yes,
      > > > > > > > it should be designated as a multi disciplinary science subject! The
      > > > > > > > history should be scientifically reconstructed as well as taught by the
      > > > > > > > scientists from different disciplines of science and doctorates on the
      > > > > > > > subject should be awarded not to individuals but to multi disciplinary
      > > > > > > > research groups working under teams of scientists as guides. A small
      > > > > > > > beginning being made in that direction in the form of this book is
      > > > > > > > placed at the feet of Ishwar/Allah/God Almighty with the prayer that let
      > > > > > > > the people of the world be inspired to rewrite the history of the world,
      > > > > > > > particularly of the Indian subcontinent, by correlating the research
      > > > > > > > reports from different disciplines of science with the astronomical
      > > > > > > > dating of events narrated in ancient books. Let us objectively and
      > > > > > > > scientifically determine if Vedas and Epics, Buddhist and Jain
      > > > > > > > literature, Christian and Muslim literature contain any references to
      > > > > > > > true historic events and therefore contain any worthwhile scientific
      > > > > > > > knowledge, the rediscovery of which may help in improving the quality of
      > > > > > > > our lives because human beings are the products of the past and live
      > > > > > > > immersed in it and the future of mankind depends on true appreciation of
      > > > > > > > its past!
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > The orders for the books can be placed on: 1. Vision India Publications
      > > > > > > > through Shri Atul Bhardwaj, Mob: 0991122316.
      > > > > > > > 2. I-SERVE Delhi Chapter through Shri Khushi Ram, Mob: 9811343548
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • urmila
      That is such a naive question coming from a historian. Even a person with my level of knowledge knows that multiple chalcolithic cultures flourished post
      Message 2 of 17 , Aug 22, 2013
        That is such a naive question coming from a historian. Even a person with my level of knowledge knows that multiple chalcolithic cultures flourished post Indus Valley Civilization, leading upto the Mauryan period and even after that. I suppose a historian would be aware of Aahar, Kaitha, Daimabad (this site was excavated multiple times)
        Chalcolithic sites. The question is, what did these Excavations lead us to?

        --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "nrao" <nrao2@...> wrote:
        >
        > Do you still maintain that there is no archaeological evidence between 1800 - 600 BCE even after all these digs?
        >
        > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "urmila" <uduhan@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Dear Naveen,
        > >
        > > The ASI maintains that there is not enough material, both sculpturally and documentarily, to construct history of the time period between 1800 B.C.E and until the arrival of Jainism in India. This period is therefore sort of called the dark ages. The ASI maintains that perhaps the epic tales, the vedas etc got created during this time. But their transmission, if they truly got created, is at best described as oral transmission. Easentially, what this means is nothing can be said what happened on the Indian subcomtinent during the so called dark ages. Hence, I doubt you are bringing forward material worth considering.
        > >
        > > Regards,
        > >
        > > Urmila.
        > >
        > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "nrao" <nrao2@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > woh isliye, kyonki aapne likha tha:
        > > >
        > > > "It is for the historians and time to decipher what
        > > > happened in the Indian subcontinent between 1800 b.c.e and 500 b.c.e as there is hardly any ( and that is quite surprising) archaelogical, or authentic documentary evidence of this period."
        > > >
        > > > You mentioned that "... there is hardly any (and that is quite surprising) archaelogical evidence of this period", hence I provided some material that there is ample evidence. That paper that I provided lists 46 sites but a quick search will yield between 500-700 archaeological sites which have been excavated that belong to the period 1800 - 500 bce.
        > > >
        > > > These sites are all over India and not just north-west or Gangetic plains, including peninsular India, eastern part and extreme north.
        > > > Dr Upendir Singh in her book mentions some 300+ plus sites between Ganga and Satluj area, if I recall.
        > > >
        > > > I did not mean to offend you.
        > > >
        > > > -Naveen
        > > >
        > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "urmila" <uduhan@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > With all due respect, how did you reach the conclusion that I am not familiar with various excavations from the time period you
        > > > > state?
        > > > >
        > > > > Regards,
        > > > >
        > > > > Urmila.
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "nrao" <nrao2@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Mere vichar se aapki baaton mein kuch khas dum nahin hai.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I think you are not familiar with various excavations associated times which are 2500-4000 years before present.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Please get acquainted with Late Harappan ware Painted Grey Ware culture (PGW), Black Ware (BW), Black and Red Ware (BRW) which is considered post Harappan, if there is anything like Post Harappan or Sarawati-Sindhu that all.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Its dating is 3800 before present and later. So excavations have been going on for decades but you are not aware of it.
        > > > > > B B Lal had associated PGW with about 30 excavated site. Later archaeologies added more sites to the PGW culture.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > PGW is sometimes associated with iron age cultures in India. Following paper mentions 46 such sites:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > http://www.academia.edu/692881/Re-evaluation_of_the_pottery_sequence_in_north_India_during_the_first_millennium_BC
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Cunnigham had nothing do with any excavations of Harappa or Mohenjo Daro, I think. He died in 1893 and the first Indus site, Harappa was excavated in 1922, almost 30 years after this death.
        > > > > > Cunningham did write about some seal or seals discovered from this area while the area was being dug up to build railroad.
        > > > > > Even if, as you state it British 'give the old Civilization a lit up face, Marshall, who was director of ASI and was part
        > > > > > of the team that excavated the first site at Harappa was a proponent of Aryan Invasion theory and stayed that way for a long time.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Once again, aapki baton mein jayada dum nahin hai.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "urmila" <uduhan@> wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Dear All,
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > I think, it is important to choose appropriate words so that ghost facts do not get perpetuated. For example, there is no factual evidence that the so called aryans 'invaded' the Indian subcontinent. If at all, they existed and did come to India, why not accept them as a migration event that lead to a peaceful settlement in this area? There is no evidence to support the invasion and destruction of the Indus Valley Civilization. It was a highly developed Civilization as evidenced from their knowledge of metal processing (eg., lost wax technique), town planning, sewage system, burial methods, respected position of women in society etc. It is for the historians and time to decipher what happened in the Indian subcontinent between 1800 b.c.e and 500 b.c.e as there is hardly any ( and that is quite surprising) archaelogical, or authentic documentary evidence of this period. But that does not mean an Invasion took place!
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > It was under the British that excavation of Indus Valley Sites was taken up and the then director of ASI (Cunningham, I believe) was instrumental in giving Indus Valley discovery a world stage. In addition to Indians, many dedicated archaeologists and excavators from Europe were instrumental in working on the sites and helped give the old Civilization a lit up face.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Regards,
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Urmila.
        > > > > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "ravichaudhary2000" <ravichaudhary2000@> wrote:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Until recently the history of the Indian subcontinent has been seen
        > > > > > > > through Colonial eyes. The history is one of Invasions by outsiders,
        > > > > > > > including the so called Aryans, followed by practically everyone.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > The latest were the British, who pushed the Aryan Invasion theory( AIT)
        > > > > > > > for their political ends
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > The discovery of the Harappan civilization , was fobbed off as a dead
        > > > > > > > civilization, destroyed by the invading aryans.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Today modern researches in archeology, show that a vast civilization
        > > > > > > > existed , that spread all over the Indian sub-continent, and was larger
        > > > > > > > , much larger than the much acclaimed civilization of Mesopotamia(
        > > > > > > > modern Iraq, Syria etc).
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > If the History of this subcontinent was to written from scratch, the
        > > > > > > > starting point would be this civilization, and the evolution of the
        > > > > > > > history to current times.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Astronomy here plays a vital role, in determining chronology, as
        > > > > > > > references to astronomical events, lead us to dates that are well into
        > > > > > > > the 4500 to 6000 BCE period.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > The discovery of observatories in these archeological finds confirm that
        > > > > > > > the ancients were used to making astronomical observations and recording
        > > > > > > > the, They used these observation to develop calendars, which they used
        > > > > > > > to regulate their lives- predict spring, summer, winter, rains, etc.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Those who spend their time , living in the shadow of colonial witiers ,
        > > > > > > > and ignore the new scientific evidences, are poorer for it.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Ravi Chaudhary
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > sarojbala.blogspot.ca/2012/06/my-book.html
        > > > > > > > Sunday, June 17, 2012 Our Latest Book
        > > > > > > > <http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vZInSGpAZtw/T92H0zgS_JI/AAAAAAAAAL0/KyD7odjUs\
        > > > > > > > dM/s1600/Book+Cover_11+May+2012+-+Copy.jpg> The Book seeks to
        > > > > > > > answer following questions-
        > > > > > > > Is it time to rewrite the true history of the world, particularly of the
        > > > > > > > Indian subcontinent, on purely scientific basis ignoring the linguistic
        > > > > > > > guesswork and the religious beliefs?
        > > > > > > > Can the Planetary Configurations mentioned in Vedas, Epics and other
        > > > > > > > ancient books be used to determine the exact dates of events mentioned
        > > > > > > > therein?
        > > > > > > > Was Lord Ram a real historical character? If yes, when did he travel
        > > > > > > > from Ayodhya to Sri Lanka to bring succor to millions of innocent and
        > > > > > > > suffering Indians?
        > > > > > > > Do the planetary references in Valmiki Ramayan refer to the exclusive
        > > > > > > > sky views, generated by planetarium software, seen sequentially around
        > > > > > > > 5000 BC?
        > > > > > > > Was Ramsethu a walkable bridge in 5000 BC as per sea level curve
        > > > > > > > prepared by the oceanographers of the world?
        > > > > > > > Do the recent archaeological excavations in Sringaverpura, Allahabad,
        > > > > > > > Lahuradeva, Jhussi and Mehrgarh etc. support the references to flora,
        > > > > > > > fauna and weaponary in Ramayan?
        > > > > > > > Does the description of some unique places referred to in Ramayan match
        > > > > > > > <http://sarojbala.blogspot.ca/2012/06/my-book.html#> the geographic and
        > > > > > > > geological features of some recently discovered places like Kotumsar
        > > > > > > > caves in Dandak Van and caves of Chitrakoot.
        > > > > > > > Are some of the plants, trees and herbs referred to in Ramayan found in
        > > > > > > > existence in India continuously during last more than 5000 tears?
        > > > > > > > Did Saraswati River actually flow from the Himalayas to the Sea and was
        > > > > > > > it really a mighty river in 5000 BC?
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > An Introduction to the Book Historicity of Vedic and Ramayan Eras - an
        > > > > > > > abridged editions
        > > > > > > > 1. Astronomical Dating
        > > > > > > > <http://sarojbala.blogspot.ca/2012/06/my-book.html#> of planetary
        > > > > > > > references in ancient books combined with the multidisciplinary and
        > > > > > > > purely scientific research reports, summarised in the Book, prima facie
        > > > > > > > establish that history of civilisation of the world, particularly of
        > > > > > > > Indian Subcontinent, after the last ice age, is much older than what is
        > > > > > > > being taught in schools and colleges. The premise, that in 1500 BC India
        > > > > > > > was civilized by the Aryan invaders from Central Asia, is based only on
        > > > > > > > linguistic guesswork and religious hearsay and has no scientific basis.
        > > > > > > > Most of the scientific research reports have proved that indigenous
        > > > > > > > civilisation has been developing in India for last more than 10,000
        > > > > > > > years. Since these reports are neither being included in school/college
        > > > > > > > books nor are normally being reported in print and electronic
        > > > > > > > <http://sarojbala.blogspot.ca/2012/06/my-book.html#> media, therefore
        > > > > > > > 99 % of Indians are unaware of 99 % of factual findings contained in
        > > > > > > > such research reports. As the readers will go through the contents of
        > > > > > > > this book, they would probably find it rather difficult to absorb some
        > > > > > > > of the outcomes of scientific research reports which disprove many of
        > > > > > > > their beliefs known from their school days! Their inquisitive minds will
        > > > > > > > seek answers to many more questions; if even some of these questions get
        > > > > > > > answered in a credible and convincing manner, the objective of
        > > > > > > > publishing this book would stand achieved:
        > > > > > > > (i) The astronomical dates of planetary references in
        > > > > > > > ancient Sanskrit books, calculated so far by using planetarium
        > > > > > > > softwares, indicate the development of an indigenous civilization in
        > > > > > > > India from dates even prior to 6000 BC. Astronomical references in
        > > > > > > > Rigveda represent the sky view of dates belonging to the period 8000 BC
        > > > > > > > to 4000 BC and those mentioned in Valmiki Ramayan refer to sky views
        > > > > > > > seen sequentially on dates around 5100 BC. Were these dates exclusive
        > > > > > > > and did these matches sequentially?
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > <http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-0vj1Hk6sW5s/T93N9qe_vNI/AAAAAAAAAN4/nGP4wR8fC\
        > > > > > > > ds/s1600/seminar+memento.jpg>
        > > > > > > > (ii) The ecological references in ancient books,
        > > > > > > > especially those relating to melting of glaciers and fluctuations in
        > > > > > > > water volumes of ancient rivers seem to corroborate such astronomical
        > > > > > > > dates. Remote Sensing images taken by ISRO, corroborated by
        > > > > > > > sedimentology, hydrogeology and drilling data, have revealed that a
        > > > > > > > mighty river system was flowing around 6000 BC from Himalayas to Rann
        > > > > > > > of Kachchh, passing through Himachal Pradesh, Punjab, Haryana and
        > > > > > > > Rajasthan, exactly matching the descriptions of Saraswati in the Vedas
        > > > > > > > and Epics. What name could be given to this river system, if not
        > > > > > > > Saraswati?
        > > > > > > > (iii) Recent research reports on paleoclimatic changes have
        > > > > > > > revealed that, after the last ice age and in the beginning of the
        > > > > > > > Holocene, the glaciers naturally first melted near the equator i.e. in
        > > > > > > > Sri Lanka and south India, and civilisation started developing on the
        > > > > > > > banks of the rivers which started flowing there. When populations
        > > > > > > > multiplied, these river waters became insufficient and some more
        > > > > > > > adventurous people started travelling from south to north. Such
        > > > > > > > northward migration continued for several centuries and finally when
        > > > > > > > these people reached the banks of Himalayan Rivers, they got climatic
        > > > > > > > conditions conducive to long term development of civilisation on the
        > > > > > > > banks of these rivers providing security of water, food and shelter.
        > > > > > > > Thousands of years later, when some of these Himalayan rivers became
        > > > > > > > non-perennial or started drying up, some of these people moved towards
        > > > > > > > Central Asia, West Asia and Europe. As per ecologists, this ecological
        > > > > > > > cycle has been repeating itself and will get repeated after every ice
        > > > > > > > age. So did any Aryans really come from Central Asia to civilise the
        > > > > > > > people of India or the dispersal probably happened the other way round?
        > > > > > > > (iv) The oceanographic reports on fluctuations of water
        > > > > > > > levels in the oceans have revealed the existence of many coastal
        > > > > > > > archaeological sites, either submerged or now found land locked, dated
        > > > > > > > from 7500 BC onwards e.g. a Neolithic site near Hazira, Dholavira, Juni
        > > > > > > > Kuran, Surkotda, Prabhas Patan and Dwarka in Gujarat. Do these reports
        > > > > > > > corroborate the astronomical dating of those ancient events with which
        > > > > > > > these places are connected in our Epics?
        > > > > > > > (v) The paleobotanic research reports have reported that
        > > > > > > > certain cultivated varieties of plants, trees and herbs, which are
        > > > > > > > mentioned in Vedas and Epics, have existed in India continuously for
        > > > > > > > more than 8000-10,000 years. Since these remained in use continuously,
        > > > > > > > was there any abrupt end of ancient Indian civilisation as is normally
        > > > > > > > believed?
        > > > > > > > (vi) The anthropological research reports have established
        > > > > > > > that DNA dating for Paleolithic continuity starts from 60,000 BC. The
        > > > > > > > Genome studies during the Holocene have revealed that the genetic
        > > > > > > > profile of humans settled in north, south, east and west of India is the
        > > > > > > > same and has remained the same for the last more than 11000 years and
        > > > > > > > that it does not match the genetic profile of people from Central Asia
        > > > > > > > or Europe. Therefore, contrary to the popular belief, do the Dravidians,
        > > > > > > > tribals, as well as the north Indians have common ancestors?
        > > > > > > > (vii) The latest archaeological excavations have revealed a
        > > > > > > > large volume of data which has proved the indigenous origin and
        > > > > > > > development of civilisation in the Indian Subcontinent since 7000 BC.
        > > > > > > > Some examples are: Mehrgarh, Kot Diji and Nausharo in the northwest;
        > > > > > > > Lothal and Dholavira in the west; Lahuradeva, Jhusi, Tokwa and Hetapatti
        > > > > > > > in the east. Is archaeology also supporting the astronomical, ecological
        > > > > > > > and anthropological conclusions that Aryans were originals of India, who
        > > > > > > > have been developing an indigenous civilisation in India for last more
        > > > > > > > than 10,000 years?
        > > > > > > > <http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-M5JPzaS-4Z0/T93QaYSMY0I/AAAAAAAAAOE/upnVu0A92\
        > > > > > > > LQ/s1600/Fig+5CD.jpg>
        > > > > > > > 2. This methodology of multi disciplinary scientific
        > > > > > > > research was applied in some greater detail by the Director of I-SERVE
        > > > > > > > Delhi Chapter for dating the era of Lord Ram. The results were
        > > > > > > > outstanding, rather amazing; these are included in the form of an
        > > > > > > > article in this compilation. The planetary references in Valmiki Ramayan
        > > > > > > > refer to exclusive and sequential sky views seen around 5100 BC. The
        > > > > > > > corroboration of these date sequences by archaeological, genealogical,
        > > > > > > > anthropological, paleobotanical, geological, ecological, oceanographic
        > > > > > > > and remote sensing evidences makes these conclusions so credible and so
        > > > > > > > convincing that we are persuaded to rethink if we were right in
        > > > > > > > considering Lord Ram as a mythological character!
        > > > > > > > 3. The world has come a long way after the old Christian
        > > > > > > > belief that the earth was created on 23rd October, 4004 BC and therefore
        > > > > > > > events relating to the period earlier than that had to be treated as
        > > > > > > > mythology. The beginnings of the Holocene are now placed around 12000 BC
        > > > > > > > by pushing these back by about three thousand years. Therefore the
        > > > > > > > history of the development of civilization of the world post last ice
        > > > > > > > age has to start at least 11,000 years ago. Consequently not only the
        > > > > > > > history of India but also the history of the whole world has to be
        > > > > > > > re-constructed based on such multidisciplinary scientific evidences. As
        > > > > > > > a result not only Ramayan and Mahabharat but also epics like Iliad and
        > > > > > > > Odyssey are likely to shift from the realm of mythology to the realm of
        > > > > > > > history. This research project and the first seminar on the subject mark
        > > > > > > > the beginning of this new idea.
        > > > > > > > 4. In future, the Universities of the world may not place
        > > > > > > > History as a subject under Faculty of Social Sciences or of Arts, but
        > > > > > > > this subject deserves to be placed under the Faculty of Sciences. Yes,
        > > > > > > > it should be designated as a multi disciplinary science subject! The
        > > > > > > > history should be scientifically reconstructed as well as taught by the
        > > > > > > > scientists from different disciplines of science and doctorates on the
        > > > > > > > subject should be awarded not to individuals but to multi disciplinary
        > > > > > > > research groups working under teams of scientists as guides. A small
        > > > > > > > beginning being made in that direction in the form of this book is
        > > > > > > > placed at the feet of Ishwar/Allah/God Almighty with the prayer that let
        > > > > > > > the people of the world be inspired to rewrite the history of the world,
        > > > > > > > particularly of the Indian subcontinent, by correlating the research
        > > > > > > > reports from different disciplines of science with the astronomical
        > > > > > > > dating of events narrated in ancient books. Let us objectively and
        > > > > > > > scientifically determine if Vedas and Epics, Buddhist and Jain
        > > > > > > > literature, Christian and Muslim literature contain any references to
        > > > > > > > true historic events and therefore contain any worthwhile scientific
        > > > > > > > knowledge, the rediscovery of which may help in improving the quality of
        > > > > > > > our lives because human beings are the products of the past and live
        > > > > > > > immersed in it and the future of mankind depends on true appreciation of
        > > > > > > > its past!
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > The orders for the books can be placed on: 1. Vision India Publications
        > > > > > > > through Shri Atul Bhardwaj, Mob: 0991122316.
        > > > > > > > 2. I-SERVE Delhi Chapter through Shri Khushi Ram, Mob: 9811343548
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • urmila
        From what I know, chalcolithic sites like Chachili (in Madhya Pradesh) existed parallel to IVC (2200 B.C.E - 1800 B.C.E via comparative dating method). There
        Message 3 of 17 , Aug 23, 2013
          From what I know, chalcolithic sites like Chachili (in Madhya Pradesh) existed parallel to IVC (2200 B.C.E - 1800 B.C.E via comparative dating method). There is plenty of archaeological evidence post IVC.

          --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "urmila" <uduhan@...> wrote:
          >
          > That is such a naive question coming from a historian. Even a person with my level of knowledge knows that multiple chalcolithic cultures flourished post Indus Valley Civilization, leading upto the Mauryan period and even after that. I suppose a historian would be aware of Aahar, Kaitha, Daimabad (this site was excavated multiple times)
          > Chalcolithic sites. The question is, what did these Excavations lead us to?
          >
          > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "nrao" <nrao2@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Do you still maintain that there is no archaeological evidence between 1800 - 600 BCE even after all these digs?
          > >
          > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "urmila" <uduhan@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Dear Naveen,
          > > >
          > > > The ASI maintains that there is not enough material, both sculpturally and documentarily, to construct history of the time period between 1800 B.C.E and until the arrival of Jainism in India. This period is therefore sort of called the dark ages. The ASI maintains that perhaps the epic tales, the vedas etc got created during this time. But their transmission, if they truly got created, is at best described as oral transmission. Easentially, what this means is nothing can be said what happened on the Indian subcomtinent during the so called dark ages. Hence, I doubt you are bringing forward material worth considering.
          > > >
          > > > Regards,
          > > >
          > > > Urmila.
          > > >
          > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "nrao" <nrao2@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > woh isliye, kyonki aapne likha tha:
          > > > >
          > > > > "It is for the historians and time to decipher what
          > > > > happened in the Indian subcontinent between 1800 b.c.e and 500 b.c.e as there is hardly any ( and that is quite surprising) archaelogical, or authentic documentary evidence of this period."
          > > > >
          > > > > You mentioned that "... there is hardly any (and that is quite surprising) archaelogical evidence of this period", hence I provided some material that there is ample evidence. That paper that I provided lists 46 sites but a quick search will yield between 500-700 archaeological sites which have been excavated that belong to the period 1800 - 500 bce.
          > > > >
          > > > > These sites are all over India and not just north-west or Gangetic plains, including peninsular India, eastern part and extreme north.
          > > > > Dr Upendir Singh in her book mentions some 300+ plus sites between Ganga and Satluj area, if I recall.
          > > > >
          > > > > I did not mean to offend you.
          > > > >
          > > > > -Naveen
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "urmila" <uduhan@> wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > With all due respect, how did you reach the conclusion that I am not familiar with various excavations from the time period you
          > > > > > state?
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Regards,
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Urmila.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "nrao" <nrao2@> wrote:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Mere vichar se aapki baaton mein kuch khas dum nahin hai.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > I think you are not familiar with various excavations associated times which are 2500-4000 years before present.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Please get acquainted with Late Harappan ware Painted Grey Ware culture (PGW), Black Ware (BW), Black and Red Ware (BRW) which is considered post Harappan, if there is anything like Post Harappan or Sarawati-Sindhu that all.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Its dating is 3800 before present and later. So excavations have been going on for decades but you are not aware of it.
          > > > > > > B B Lal had associated PGW with about 30 excavated site. Later archaeologies added more sites to the PGW culture.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > PGW is sometimes associated with iron age cultures in India. Following paper mentions 46 such sites:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > http://www.academia.edu/692881/Re-evaluation_of_the_pottery_sequence_in_north_India_during_the_first_millennium_BC
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Cunnigham had nothing do with any excavations of Harappa or Mohenjo Daro, I think. He died in 1893 and the first Indus site, Harappa was excavated in 1922, almost 30 years after this death.
          > > > > > > Cunningham did write about some seal or seals discovered from this area while the area was being dug up to build railroad.
          > > > > > > Even if, as you state it British 'give the old Civilization a lit up face, Marshall, who was director of ASI and was part
          > > > > > > of the team that excavated the first site at Harappa was a proponent of Aryan Invasion theory and stayed that way for a long time.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Once again, aapki baton mein jayada dum nahin hai.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "urmila" <uduhan@> wrote:
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > Dear All,
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > I think, it is important to choose appropriate words so that ghost facts do not get perpetuated. For example, there is no factual evidence that the so called aryans 'invaded' the Indian subcontinent. If at all, they existed and did come to India, why not accept them as a migration event that lead to a peaceful settlement in this area? There is no evidence to support the invasion and destruction of the Indus Valley Civilization. It was a highly developed Civilization as evidenced from their knowledge of metal processing (eg., lost wax technique), town planning, sewage system, burial methods, respected position of women in society etc. It is for the historians and time to decipher what happened in the Indian subcontinent between 1800 b.c.e and 500 b.c.e as there is hardly any ( and that is quite surprising) archaelogical, or authentic documentary evidence of this period. But that does not mean an Invasion took place!
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > It was under the British that excavation of Indus Valley Sites was taken up and the then director of ASI (Cunningham, I believe) was instrumental in giving Indus Valley discovery a world stage. In addition to Indians, many dedicated archaeologists and excavators from Europe were instrumental in working on the sites and helped give the old Civilization a lit up face.
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > Regards,
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > Urmila.
          > > > > > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "ravichaudhary2000" <ravichaudhary2000@> wrote:
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Until recently the history of the Indian subcontinent has been seen
          > > > > > > > > through Colonial eyes. The history is one of Invasions by outsiders,
          > > > > > > > > including the so called Aryans, followed by practically everyone.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > The latest were the British, who pushed the Aryan Invasion theory( AIT)
          > > > > > > > > for their political ends
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > The discovery of the Harappan civilization , was fobbed off as a dead
          > > > > > > > > civilization, destroyed by the invading aryans.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Today modern researches in archeology, show that a vast civilization
          > > > > > > > > existed , that spread all over the Indian sub-continent, and was larger
          > > > > > > > > , much larger than the much acclaimed civilization of Mesopotamia(
          > > > > > > > > modern Iraq, Syria etc).
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > If the History of this subcontinent was to written from scratch, the
          > > > > > > > > starting point would be this civilization, and the evolution of the
          > > > > > > > > history to current times.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Astronomy here plays a vital role, in determining chronology, as
          > > > > > > > > references to astronomical events, lead us to dates that are well into
          > > > > > > > > the 4500 to 6000 BCE period.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > The discovery of observatories in these archeological finds confirm that
          > > > > > > > > the ancients were used to making astronomical observations and recording
          > > > > > > > > the, They used these observation to develop calendars, which they used
          > > > > > > > > to regulate their lives- predict spring, summer, winter, rains, etc.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Those who spend their time , living in the shadow of colonial witiers ,
          > > > > > > > > and ignore the new scientific evidences, are poorer for it.
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > Ravi Chaudhary
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > sarojbala.blogspot.ca/2012/06/my-book.html
          > > > > > > > > Sunday, June 17, 2012 Our Latest Book
          > > > > > > > > <http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vZInSGpAZtw/T92H0zgS_JI/AAAAAAAAAL0/KyD7odjUs\
          > > > > > > > > dM/s1600/Book+Cover_11+May+2012+-+Copy.jpg> The Book seeks to
          > > > > > > > > answer following questions-
          > > > > > > > > Is it time to rewrite the true history of the world, particularly of the
          > > > > > > > > Indian subcontinent, on purely scientific basis ignoring the linguistic
          > > > > > > > > guesswork and the religious beliefs?
          > > > > > > > > Can the Planetary Configurations mentioned in Vedas, Epics and other
          > > > > > > > > ancient books be used to determine the exact dates of events mentioned
          > > > > > > > > therein?
          > > > > > > > > Was Lord Ram a real historical character? If yes, when did he travel
          > > > > > > > > from Ayodhya to Sri Lanka to bring succor to millions of innocent and
          > > > > > > > > suffering Indians?
          > > > > > > > > Do the planetary references in Valmiki Ramayan refer to the exclusive
          > > > > > > > > sky views, generated by planetarium software, seen sequentially around
          > > > > > > > > 5000 BC?
          > > > > > > > > Was Ramsethu a walkable bridge in 5000 BC as per sea level curve
          > > > > > > > > prepared by the oceanographers of the world?
          > > > > > > > > Do the recent archaeological excavations in Sringaverpura, Allahabad,
          > > > > > > > > Lahuradeva, Jhussi and Mehrgarh etc. support the references to flora,
          > > > > > > > > fauna and weaponary in Ramayan?
          > > > > > > > > Does the description of some unique places referred to in Ramayan match
          > > > > > > > > <http://sarojbala.blogspot.ca/2012/06/my-book.html#> the geographic and
          > > > > > > > > geological features of some recently discovered places like Kotumsar
          > > > > > > > > caves in Dandak Van and caves of Chitrakoot.
          > > > > > > > > Are some of the plants, trees and herbs referred to in Ramayan found in
          > > > > > > > > existence in India continuously during last more than 5000 tears?
          > > > > > > > > Did Saraswati River actually flow from the Himalayas to the Sea and was
          > > > > > > > > it really a mighty river in 5000 BC?
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > An Introduction to the Book Historicity of Vedic and Ramayan Eras - an
          > > > > > > > > abridged editions
          > > > > > > > > 1. Astronomical Dating
          > > > > > > > > <http://sarojbala.blogspot.ca/2012/06/my-book.html#> of planetary
          > > > > > > > > references in ancient books combined with the multidisciplinary and
          > > > > > > > > purely scientific research reports, summarised in the Book, prima facie
          > > > > > > > > establish that history of civilisation of the world, particularly of
          > > > > > > > > Indian Subcontinent, after the last ice age, is much older than what is
          > > > > > > > > being taught in schools and colleges. The premise, that in 1500 BC India
          > > > > > > > > was civilized by the Aryan invaders from Central Asia, is based only on
          > > > > > > > > linguistic guesswork and religious hearsay and has no scientific basis.
          > > > > > > > > Most of the scientific research reports have proved that indigenous
          > > > > > > > > civilisation has been developing in India for last more than 10,000
          > > > > > > > > years. Since these reports are neither being included in school/college
          > > > > > > > > books nor are normally being reported in print and electronic
          > > > > > > > > <http://sarojbala.blogspot.ca/2012/06/my-book.html#> media, therefore
          > > > > > > > > 99 % of Indians are unaware of 99 % of factual findings contained in
          > > > > > > > > such research reports. As the readers will go through the contents of
          > > > > > > > > this book, they would probably find it rather difficult to absorb some
          > > > > > > > > of the outcomes of scientific research reports which disprove many of
          > > > > > > > > their beliefs known from their school days! Their inquisitive minds will
          > > > > > > > > seek answers to many more questions; if even some of these questions get
          > > > > > > > > answered in a credible and convincing manner, the objective of
          > > > > > > > > publishing this book would stand achieved:
          > > > > > > > > (i) The astronomical dates of planetary references in
          > > > > > > > > ancient Sanskrit books, calculated so far by using planetarium
          > > > > > > > > softwares, indicate the development of an indigenous civilization in
          > > > > > > > > India from dates even prior to 6000 BC. Astronomical references in
          > > > > > > > > Rigveda represent the sky view of dates belonging to the period 8000 BC
          > > > > > > > > to 4000 BC and those mentioned in Valmiki Ramayan refer to sky views
          > > > > > > > > seen sequentially on dates around 5100 BC. Were these dates exclusive
          > > > > > > > > and did these matches sequentially?
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > <http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-0vj1Hk6sW5s/T93N9qe_vNI/AAAAAAAAAN4/nGP4wR8fC\
          > > > > > > > > ds/s1600/seminar+memento.jpg>
          > > > > > > > > (ii) The ecological references in ancient books,
          > > > > > > > > especially those relating to melting of glaciers and fluctuations in
          > > > > > > > > water volumes of ancient rivers seem to corroborate such astronomical
          > > > > > > > > dates. Remote Sensing images taken by ISRO, corroborated by
          > > > > > > > > sedimentology, hydrogeology and drilling data, have revealed that a
          > > > > > > > > mighty river system was flowing around 6000 BC from Himalayas to Rann
          > > > > > > > > of Kachchh, passing through Himachal Pradesh, Punjab, Haryana and
          > > > > > > > > Rajasthan, exactly matching the descriptions of Saraswati in the Vedas
          > > > > > > > > and Epics. What name could be given to this river system, if not
          > > > > > > > > Saraswati?
          > > > > > > > > (iii) Recent research reports on paleoclimatic changes have
          > > > > > > > > revealed that, after the last ice age and in the beginning of the
          > > > > > > > > Holocene, the glaciers naturally first melted near the equator i.e. in
          > > > > > > > > Sri Lanka and south India, and civilisation started developing on the
          > > > > > > > > banks of the rivers which started flowing there. When populations
          > > > > > > > > multiplied, these river waters became insufficient and some more
          > > > > > > > > adventurous people started travelling from south to north. Such
          > > > > > > > > northward migration continued for several centuries and finally when
          > > > > > > > > these people reached the banks of Himalayan Rivers, they got climatic
          > > > > > > > > conditions conducive to long term development of civilisation on the
          > > > > > > > > banks of these rivers providing security of water, food and shelter.
          > > > > > > > > Thousands of years later, when some of these Himalayan rivers became
          > > > > > > > > non-perennial or started drying up, some of these people moved towards
          > > > > > > > > Central Asia, West Asia and Europe. As per ecologists, this ecological
          > > > > > > > > cycle has been repeating itself and will get repeated after every ice
          > > > > > > > > age. So did any Aryans really come from Central Asia to civilise the
          > > > > > > > > people of India or the dispersal probably happened the other way round?
          > > > > > > > > (iv) The oceanographic reports on fluctuations of water
          > > > > > > > > levels in the oceans have revealed the existence of many coastal
          > > > > > > > > archaeological sites, either submerged or now found land locked, dated
          > > > > > > > > from 7500 BC onwards e.g. a Neolithic site near Hazira, Dholavira, Juni
          > > > > > > > > Kuran, Surkotda, Prabhas Patan and Dwarka in Gujarat. Do these reports
          > > > > > > > > corroborate the astronomical dating of those ancient events with which
          > > > > > > > > these places are connected in our Epics?
          > > > > > > > > (v) The paleobotanic research reports have reported that
          > > > > > > > > certain cultivated varieties of plants, trees and herbs, which are
          > > > > > > > > mentioned in Vedas and Epics, have existed in India continuously for
          > > > > > > > > more than 8000-10,000 years. Since these remained in use continuously,
          > > > > > > > > was there any abrupt end of ancient Indian civilisation as is normally
          > > > > > > > > believed?
          > > > > > > > > (vi) The anthropological research reports have established
          > > > > > > > > that DNA dating for Paleolithic continuity starts from 60,000 BC. The
          > > > > > > > > Genome studies during the Holocene have revealed that the genetic
          > > > > > > > > profile of humans settled in north, south, east and west of India is the
          > > > > > > > > same and has remained the same for the last more than 11000 years and
          > > > > > > > > that it does not match the genetic profile of people from Central Asia
          > > > > > > > > or Europe. Therefore, contrary to the popular belief, do the Dravidians,
          > > > > > > > > tribals, as well as the north Indians have common ancestors?
          > > > > > > > > (vii) The latest archaeological excavations have revealed a
          > > > > > > > > large volume of data which has proved the indigenous origin and
          > > > > > > > > development of civilisation in the Indian Subcontinent since 7000 BC.
          > > > > > > > > Some examples are: Mehrgarh, Kot Diji and Nausharo in the northwest;
          > > > > > > > > Lothal and Dholavira in the west; Lahuradeva, Jhusi, Tokwa and Hetapatti
          > > > > > > > > in the east. Is archaeology also supporting the astronomical, ecological
          > > > > > > > > and anthropological conclusions that Aryans were originals of India, who
          > > > > > > > > have been developing an indigenous civilisation in India for last more
          > > > > > > > > than 10,000 years?
          > > > > > > > > <http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-M5JPzaS-4Z0/T93QaYSMY0I/AAAAAAAAAOE/upnVu0A92\
          > > > > > > > > LQ/s1600/Fig+5CD.jpg>
          > > > > > > > > 2. This methodology of multi disciplinary scientific
          > > > > > > > > research was applied in some greater detail by the Director of I-SERVE
          > > > > > > > > Delhi Chapter for dating the era of Lord Ram. The results were
          > > > > > > > > outstanding, rather amazing; these are included in the form of an
          > > > > > > > > article in this compilation. The planetary references in Valmiki Ramayan
          > > > > > > > > refer to exclusive and sequential sky views seen around 5100 BC. The
          > > > > > > > > corroboration of these date sequences by archaeological, genealogical,
          > > > > > > > > anthropological, paleobotanical, geological, ecological, oceanographic
          > > > > > > > > and remote sensing evidences makes these conclusions so credible and so
          > > > > > > > > convincing that we are persuaded to rethink if we were right in
          > > > > > > > > considering Lord Ram as a mythological character!
          > > > > > > > > 3. The world has come a long way after the old Christian
          > > > > > > > > belief that the earth was created on 23rd October, 4004 BC and therefore
          > > > > > > > > events relating to the period earlier than that had to be treated as
          > > > > > > > > mythology. The beginnings of the Holocene are now placed around 12000 BC
          > > > > > > > > by pushing these back by about three thousand years. Therefore the
          > > > > > > > > history of the development of civilization of the world post last ice
          > > > > > > > > age has to start at least 11,000 years ago. Consequently not only the
          > > > > > > > > history of India but also the history of the whole world has to be
          > > > > > > > > re-constructed based on such multidisciplinary scientific evidences. As
          > > > > > > > > a result not only Ramayan and Mahabharat but also epics like Iliad and
          > > > > > > > > Odyssey are likely to shift from the realm of mythology to the realm of
          > > > > > > > > history. This research project and the first seminar on the subject mark
          > > > > > > > > the beginning of this new idea.
          > > > > > > > > 4. In future, the Universities of the world may not place
          > > > > > > > > History as a subject under Faculty of Social Sciences or of Arts, but
          > > > > > > > > this subject deserves to be placed under the Faculty of Sciences. Yes,
          > > > > > > > > it should be designated as a multi disciplinary science subject! The
          > > > > > > > > history should be scientifically reconstructed as well as taught by the
          > > > > > > > > scientists from different disciplines of science and doctorates on the
          > > > > > > > > subject should be awarded not to individuals but to multi disciplinary
          > > > > > > > > research groups working under teams of scientists as guides. A small
          > > > > > > > > beginning being made in that direction in the form of this book is
          > > > > > > > > placed at the feet of Ishwar/Allah/God Almighty with the prayer that let
          > > > > > > > > the people of the world be inspired to rewrite the history of the world,
          > > > > > > > > particularly of the Indian subcontinent, by correlating the research
          > > > > > > > > reports from different disciplines of science with the astronomical
          > > > > > > > > dating of events narrated in ancient books. Let us objectively and
          > > > > > > > > scientifically determine if Vedas and Epics, Buddhist and Jain
          > > > > > > > > literature, Christian and Muslim literature contain any references to
          > > > > > > > > true historic events and therefore contain any worthwhile scientific
          > > > > > > > > knowledge, the rediscovery of which may help in improving the quality of
          > > > > > > > > our lives because human beings are the products of the past and live
          > > > > > > > > immersed in it and the future of mankind depends on true appreciation of
          > > > > > > > > its past!
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > > The orders for the books can be placed on: 1. Vision India Publications
          > > > > > > > > through Shri Atul Bhardwaj, Mob: 0991122316.
          > > > > > > > > 2. I-SERVE Delhi Chapter through Shri Khushi Ram, Mob: 9811343548
          > > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
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