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Re: Rakhigarhi Significance

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  • nrao
    Few more pieces of information regarding how dating of the site kept getting older as archaeological digs went deeper and the size of the site kept increasing
    Message 1 of 7 , Feb 9, 2013
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      Few more pieces of information regarding how dating of the site kept getting older as archaeological digs went deeper and the size of the site kept increasing with better digs:

      Timeline -

      * Suraj Bhan, then a student and Acharya Bhagwan Dev back in 1963 state that Rakhigarhi is a Harappan site after first digs,
      * Dr. Suraj Bhan back in 1975, asserted that some parts of this area can be classified as belonging to Sothi-Siswal culture and timeframe, meaning early Harappan period,
      * Current reports and interviews with Dr. Vasanth Shinde claim that it goes back to earlier than 5000 BCE, which would be pre-Harappan

      Size -

      * Year 1963 - Size = ?? first reported find by Suraj Bhan (student) and Bhagwan Dev
      * Year 1975 - Size = 24 Hectares reported by Dr Suraj Bhan
      * Year early 90s - Size = 80 Hectares not sure who reported it but maybe by Kenoyer
      * Year 1999 - Size = 224 Hectares by Amerandra Nath ASI
      * Year 2012 - Size = 400 Hectares (Dr Vasant Shinde in interview)

      This ought to provide some perspective.

      Found this 6 year old report from Dainik Jagran, Apr 25, 2006 with Wazir Chand photo and more importantly photos of artifacts from his personal collection, I think:

      http://www.hermesonwings.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Article-Local-Newspaper-Dainik-Jagaran-2006.jpg

      In addition, recent surveys by archaeologists from BHU and Cambridge provide quite interesting information.

      They conducted 2 specific surveys:

      i) 2009 was the Rakhigarhi Hinterland survey - "A total of 127 sites were located during this survey. Up to 73 of these have not been recorded in previous survey reports and compilations (e.g. Joshi et al. 1984; Possehl 1999; Kumar 2009; Chakrabarti and Saini 2009), meaning that up to 57% of sites within this particular area are new to knowledge. The chronological distribution of these sites is not skewed to any one period, and in all but the Late Harappan phase, up to 50% of sites have not been recorded previously. The Early Historic period has the highest number and proportion of new sites (48 sites, 61.5%. The number of sites dating to each period is as follows: 29 Early Harappan, 15 Mature Harappan, 32 Late Harappan, 18 PGW, 6 NBPW, 78 Early Historic and 26 Mediaeval, with the urban site of Rakhigarhi being occupied only in the Early and Mature Harappan periods."

      ii) 2010 was the Gagghar Hinterland survey - "This has been called the Ghaggar Hinterland Survey, and effectively surveys the hinterland of some well known Indus Civilisation settlements including Banawali, Bhirrana, and Kunal. A total of 182 sites were located during this survey (Table 1). Up to 125 of these have not been recorded in previous survey reports and compilations (e.g. Joshi et al. 1984; Possehl 1999; Kumar 2009; Chakrabarti and Saini 2009), meaning that up to 69% of sites within this particular area are new to knowledge. In contrast to the Rakhigarhi Hinterland Survey that was carried out by the same project in 2009, the chronological distribution of these new sites is skewed toward the Early Historic (77 sites, 42% new) and Medieval (136 sites, 74% new) period, suggesting that previous surveys have focussed on the identification of Indus Civilisation sites and have not recorded later period sites. Only one Mature Harappan site was new to knowledge, no new Late Harappan sites were discovered, and 6 new Early Harappan sites were identified out of a total of 17. The number of sites dating to each period is as follows: 17 Early Harappan, 8 Mature Harappan, 2 Late Harappan, 11 PGW, 77 Early Historic and 136 Mediaeval."

      So from this small area of about 50-60 km radius, they reported a total 46 sites which are either pre-Harappan or early Harappan (older than 5000 years) with a break down like this - 29 from Rakhigarhi Hinterland survey + 17 from Gagghar Hinterland survey. This is quite an amazing density of pre or early Harappan sites.

      Incidentally, this area also lies between ancient Saraswati and Dradashvati which are so clearly mentioned in Ved and Mahabharat.

      Lastly, Bhirrana and Rakhigarhi have continuous habitation for the past 7000-9000 years.

      -Naveen

      --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "nrao" wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > Ravi,
      >
      > In addition to these new dates, few related notes:
      >
      > Orientalists, like to point to the date of 1400 BCE and later for the Aryan invasion pointing to presence of iron around 1200 BCE or later, supposedly brought in by 'Aryans'. Since Harappans are considered as pre-iron, this fits in with their model, as Aryans are credited with introducing iron into India, via northwest.
      >
      > However, Rakesh Tiwari's article back in 2003, point to presence of iron in UP back as far back as 1800 BCE, pointing to an indigenous development of the metal:
      >
      > http://antiquity.ac.uk/ant/077/Ant0770536.htm
      >
      > In addition, there is also reported presence of Steel, in and around 900 BCE (from an area which is not even considered part of the Harappan civ), as reported by Deshpande, Mohanty and Shinde:
      >
      > http://cs-test.ias.ac.in/cs/Downloads/article_id_099_05_0636_0639_0.pdf
      >
      > -Naveen
      >
      > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "ravichaudhary2000" wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > --- I
      > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > http://www.livemint.com/Leisure/ljfXtPZHUSi5eG8Di1n9YO/History--What-the\
      > > \
      > > > ir-lives-reveal.html
      > >
      > >
      > > Rakhigarhi
      > > Extract:
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > " That Rakhigarhi was a large Harappan town was known in 1963, when
      > > the area was first surveyed. What archaeologists are finding out now is
      > > that it is the biggest ever Harappan city, larger and more extensive
      > > than the massive Mohenjo Daro.
      > >
      > > "The whole site is around 400 hectares, which is nearly double that
      > > of Mohenjo Daro," says Vasant Shivram Shinde, professor of
      > > archaeology and joint director of the Deccan College Post-Graduate and
      > > Research Institute, Pune.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Even though the Harappan or Indus Valley Civilization is one of the
      > > three oldest urban civilizations, along with Egypt and Mesopotamia, it
      > > is the least understood. Its script is yet to be deciphered, and the
      > > knowledge of social structures and life during that period is scant.
      > > Rakhigarhi promises to change this too. It is one of the few Harappan
      > > sites which has an unbroken history of settlement—Early Harappan
      > > farming communities from 6000 to 4500 BC, followed by the Early Mature
      > > Harappan urbanization phase from 4500 to 3000 BC, and then the highly
      > > urbanized Mature Harappan era from 3000 BC to the mysterious collapse of
      > > the civilization around 1800 BC. That's more than 4,000 years of
      > > ancient human history packed into the rich soil.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > http://www.livemint.com/Leisure/ljfXtPZHUSi5eG8Di1n9YO/History--What-the\
      > > ir-lives-reveal.html
      > >
      > eir-lives-reveal.html> "
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Why is Rakhi Garhi Important for Indian history Chronology?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Recent studies by the Deccan Post Graduate and Research Institute at
      > > Pune , Maharastra, show that Rakhi Garhi is twice the size of Mohenjo
      > > Daro and spread over 400 hectare. The Haryana online site states it
      > > covers of 200 Hectares.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > It is representative of a continuous unbroken culture going to back to
      > > over 9000 years to 7000 BCE.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Earlier conventional thinking was based on the discovery of the Mohenjo
      > > Daro and Harappa sites( now in Pakistan), which were dated to about
      > > 3000 BC down and the c
      > >
      > > civilization was extinguished some time circa 1500 BCE.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Upon the extinguishing of the civilization, it was presumed that the
      > > survivors spread east to Haryana , Punjab ,and Central India.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Rakhi Garhi shows that this view was not correct and that the cultural
      > > developments in Haryana and Punjab were the same as in the Harrapa area.
      > > The discoveries of Dholavira, Lothal etc also showed that the
      > > civilization was spread to the south.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > We thus have a vast civilization which goes back to at least 7000 BCE.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Time frame
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > 1) Early Harappan farming communities :
      > > 6000 - 4500 BC,
      > >
      > > 2) Early Mature Harappan urbanization phase:
      > > 4500 - 3000 BC,
      > >
      > > 3) Highly urbanized Mature Harappan era :
      > > 3000 - 1800 BC
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > The dates were obtained by among other methods including Carbon dating.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > For our purposes they are broadly acceptable.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > What is the significance?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Ravi Chaudhary
      > >
      >
    • urmila
      Dear All, When Indus valley Civilization is discussed, it is inappropriate to use terms such as it collapsed . Where is the evidence for its destruction?
      Message 2 of 7 , Apr 19, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear All,

        When Indus valley Civilization is discussed, it is inappropriate to use terms such as 'it collapsed'. Where is the evidence for its destruction? There isn't! Papal tree worship from Indus Valley Civilization continues to this day among the Hindus, and so is the reverence for 3 faced deities sitting in yogic positions. The symbol of swastika found on terracotta seals is still a revered religious symbol among Hindus (not a cult symbol as it may be in western areas of the globe).


        Regards,

        Urmila.

        --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "nrao" <nrao2@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > Few more pieces of information regarding how dating of the site kept getting older as archaeological digs went deeper and the size of the site kept increasing with better digs:
        >
        > Timeline -
        >
        > * Suraj Bhan, then a student and Acharya Bhagwan Dev back in 1963 state that Rakhigarhi is a Harappan site after first digs,
        > * Dr. Suraj Bhan back in 1975, asserted that some parts of this area can be classified as belonging to Sothi-Siswal culture and timeframe, meaning early Harappan period,
        > * Current reports and interviews with Dr. Vasanth Shinde claim that it goes back to earlier than 5000 BCE, which would be pre-Harappan
        >
        > Size -
        >
        > * Year 1963 - Size = ?? first reported find by Suraj Bhan (student) and Bhagwan Dev
        > * Year 1975 - Size = 24 Hectares reported by Dr Suraj Bhan
        > * Year early 90s - Size = 80 Hectares not sure who reported it but maybe by Kenoyer
        > * Year 1999 - Size = 224 Hectares by Amerandra Nath ASI
        > * Year 2012 - Size = 400 Hectares (Dr Vasant Shinde in interview)
        >
        > This ought to provide some perspective.
        >
        > Found this 6 year old report from Dainik Jagran, Apr 25, 2006 with Wazir Chand photo and more importantly photos of artifacts from his personal collection, I think:
        >
        > http://www.hermesonwings.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Article-Local-Newspaper-Dainik-Jagaran-2006.jpg
        >
        > In addition, recent surveys by archaeologists from BHU and Cambridge provide quite interesting information.
        >
        > They conducted 2 specific surveys:
        >
        > i) 2009 was the Rakhigarhi Hinterland survey - "A total of 127 sites were located during this survey. Up to 73 of these have not been recorded in previous survey reports and compilations (e.g. Joshi et al. 1984; Possehl 1999; Kumar 2009; Chakrabarti and Saini 2009), meaning that up to 57% of sites within this particular area are new to knowledge. The chronological distribution of these sites is not skewed to any one period, and in all but the Late Harappan phase, up to 50% of sites have not been recorded previously. The Early Historic period has the highest number and proportion of new sites (48 sites, 61.5%. The number of sites dating to each period is as follows: 29 Early Harappan, 15 Mature Harappan, 32 Late Harappan, 18 PGW, 6 NBPW, 78 Early Historic and 26 Mediaeval, with the urban site of Rakhigarhi being occupied only in the Early and Mature Harappan periods."
        >
        > ii) 2010 was the Gagghar Hinterland survey - "This has been called the Ghaggar Hinterland Survey, and effectively surveys the hinterland of some well known Indus Civilisation settlements including Banawali, Bhirrana, and Kunal. A total of 182 sites were located during this survey (Table 1). Up to 125 of these have not been recorded in previous survey reports and compilations (e.g. Joshi et al. 1984; Possehl 1999; Kumar 2009; Chakrabarti and Saini 2009), meaning that up to 69% of sites within this particular area are new to knowledge. In contrast to the Rakhigarhi Hinterland Survey that was carried out by the same project in 2009, the chronological distribution of these new sites is skewed toward the Early Historic (77 sites, 42% new) and Medieval (136 sites, 74% new) period, suggesting that previous surveys have focussed on the identification of Indus Civilisation sites and have not recorded later period sites. Only one Mature Harappan site was new to knowledge, no new Late Harappan sites were discovered, and 6 new Early Harappan sites were identified out of a total of 17. The number of sites dating to each period is as follows: 17 Early Harappan, 8 Mature Harappan, 2 Late Harappan, 11 PGW, 77 Early Historic and 136 Mediaeval."
        >
        > So from this small area of about 50-60 km radius, they reported a total 46 sites which are either pre-Harappan or early Harappan (older than 5000 years) with a break down like this - 29 from Rakhigarhi Hinterland survey + 17 from Gagghar Hinterland survey. This is quite an amazing density of pre or early Harappan sites.
        >
        > Incidentally, this area also lies between ancient Saraswati and Dradashvati which are so clearly mentioned in Ved and Mahabharat.
        >
        > Lastly, Bhirrana and Rakhigarhi have continuous habitation for the past 7000-9000 years.
        >
        > -Naveen
        >
        > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "nrao" wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Ravi,
        > >
        > > In addition to these new dates, few related notes:
        > >
        > > Orientalists, like to point to the date of 1400 BCE and later for the Aryan invasion pointing to presence of iron around 1200 BCE or later, supposedly brought in by 'Aryans'. Since Harappans are considered as pre-iron, this fits in with their model, as Aryans are credited with introducing iron into India, via northwest.
        > >
        > > However, Rakesh Tiwari's article back in 2003, point to presence of iron in UP back as far back as 1800 BCE, pointing to an indigenous development of the metal:
        > >
        > > http://antiquity.ac.uk/ant/077/Ant0770536.htm
        > >
        > > In addition, there is also reported presence of Steel, in and around 900 BCE (from an area which is not even considered part of the Harappan civ), as reported by Deshpande, Mohanty and Shinde:
        > >
        > > http://cs-test.ias.ac.in/cs/Downloads/article_id_099_05_0636_0639_0.pdf
        > >
        > > -Naveen
        > >
        > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "ravichaudhary2000" wrote:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- I
        > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > http://www.livemint.com/Leisure/ljfXtPZHUSi5eG8Di1n9YO/History--What-the\
        > > > \
        > > > > ir-lives-reveal.html
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Rakhigarhi
        > > > Extract:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > " That Rakhigarhi was a large Harappan town was known in 1963, when
        > > > the area was first surveyed. What archaeologists are finding out now is
        > > > that it is the biggest ever Harappan city, larger and more extensive
        > > > than the massive Mohenjo Daro.
        > > >
        > > > "The whole site is around 400 hectares, which is nearly double that
        > > > of Mohenjo Daro," says Vasant Shivram Shinde, professor of
        > > > archaeology and joint director of the Deccan College Post-Graduate and
        > > > Research Institute, Pune.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Even though the Harappan or Indus Valley Civilization is one of the
        > > > three oldest urban civilizations, along with Egypt and Mesopotamia, it
        > > > is the least understood. Its script is yet to be deciphered, and the
        > > > knowledge of social structures and life during that period is scant.
        > > > Rakhigarhi promises to change this too. It is one of the few Harappan
        > > > sites which has an unbroken history of settlement—Early Harappan
        > > > farming communities from 6000 to 4500 BC, followed by the Early Mature
        > > > Harappan urbanization phase from 4500 to 3000 BC, and then the highly
        > > > urbanized Mature Harappan era from 3000 BC to the mysterious collapse of
        > > > the civilization around 1800 BC. That's more than 4,000 years of
        > > > ancient human history packed into the rich soil.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > http://www.livemint.com/Leisure/ljfXtPZHUSi5eG8Di1n9YO/History--What-the\
        > > > ir-lives-reveal.html
        > > >
        > > eir-lives-reveal.html> "
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Why is Rakhi Garhi Important for Indian history Chronology?
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Recent studies by the Deccan Post Graduate and Research Institute at
        > > > Pune , Maharastra, show that Rakhi Garhi is twice the size of Mohenjo
        > > > Daro and spread over 400 hectare. The Haryana online site states it
        > > > covers of 200 Hectares.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > It is representative of a continuous unbroken culture going to back to
        > > > over 9000 years to 7000 BCE.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Earlier conventional thinking was based on the discovery of the Mohenjo
        > > > Daro and Harappa sites( now in Pakistan), which were dated to about
        > > > 3000 BC down and the c
        > > >
        > > > civilization was extinguished some time circa 1500 BCE.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Upon the extinguishing of the civilization, it was presumed that the
        > > > survivors spread east to Haryana , Punjab ,and Central India.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Rakhi Garhi shows that this view was not correct and that the cultural
        > > > developments in Haryana and Punjab were the same as in the Harrapa area.
        > > > The discoveries of Dholavira, Lothal etc also showed that the
        > > > civilization was spread to the south.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > We thus have a vast civilization which goes back to at least 7000 BCE.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Time frame
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > 1) Early Harappan farming communities :
        > > > 6000 - 4500 BC,
        > > >
        > > > 2) Early Mature Harappan urbanization phase:
        > > > 4500 - 3000 BC,
        > > >
        > > > 3) Highly urbanized Mature Harappan era :
        > > > 3000 - 1800 BC
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > The dates were obtained by among other methods including Carbon dating.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > For our purposes they are broadly acceptable.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > What is the significance?
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Ravi Chaudhary
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • urmila
        ... Well, factual history cannot be constructed on assumptions and supposes . We need meritorious proofs. Horse bones (of a true domesticated horse) have
        Message 3 of 7 , Apr 20, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "nrao" <nrao2@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          Well, factual history cannot be constructed on 'assumptions and supposes'. We need meritorious proofs. Horse bones (of a true domesticated horse) have been found in Daimabad ( or a similar Indus valley site). This adds to the evidence that horse existed prior to 1800 b.c.e on the Indian subcontinent. Similarly, there is no evidence that Iron came to India from outside.

          Regards,

          Urmila.



          Ravi,
          >
          > In addition to these new dates, few related notes:
          >
          > Orientalists, like to point to the date of 1400 BCE and later for the Aryan invasion pointing to presence of iron around 1200 BCE or later, supposedly brought in by 'Aryans'. Since Harappans are considered as pre-iron, this fits in with their model, as Aryans are credited with introducing iron into India, via northwest.
          >
          > However, Rakesh Tiwari's article back in 2003, point to presence of iron in UP back as far back as 1800 BCE, pointing to an indigenous development of the metal:
          >
          > http://antiquity.ac.uk/ant/077/Ant0770536.htm
          >
          > In addition, there is also reported presence of Steel, in and around 900 BCE (from an area which is not even considered part of the Harappan civ), as reported by Deshpande, Mohanty and Shinde:
          >
          > http://cs-test.ias.ac.in/cs/Downloads/article_id_099_05_0636_0639_0.pdf
          >
          > -Naveen
          >
          > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "ravichaudhary2000" wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > --- I
          > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > http://www.livemint.com/Leisure/ljfXtPZHUSi5eG8Di1n9YO/History--What-the\
          > > \
          > > > ir-lives-reveal.html
          > >
          > >
          > > Rakhigarhi
          > > Extract:
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > " That Rakhigarhi was a large Harappan town was known in 1963, when
          > > the area was first surveyed. What archaeologists are finding out now is
          > > that it is the biggest ever Harappan city, larger and more extensive
          > > than the massive Mohenjo Daro.
          > >
          > > "The whole site is around 400 hectares, which is nearly double that
          > > of Mohenjo Daro," says Vasant Shivram Shinde, professor of
          > > archaeology and joint director of the Deccan College Post-Graduate and
          > > Research Institute, Pune.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Even though the Harappan or Indus Valley Civilization is one of the
          > > three oldest urban civilizations, along with Egypt and Mesopotamia, it
          > > is the least understood. Its script is yet to be deciphered, and the
          > > knowledge of social structures and life during that period is scant.
          > > Rakhigarhi promises to change this too. It is one of the few Harappan
          > > sites which has an unbroken history of settlement—Early Harappan
          > > farming communities from 6000 to 4500 BC, followed by the Early Mature
          > > Harappan urbanization phase from 4500 to 3000 BC, and then the highly
          > > urbanized Mature Harappan era from 3000 BC to the mysterious collapse of
          > > the civilization around 1800 BC. That's more than 4,000 years of
          > > ancient human history packed into the rich soil.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > http://www.livemint.com/Leisure/ljfXtPZHUSi5eG8Di1n9YO/History--What-the\
          > > ir-lives-reveal.html
          > >
          > eir-lives-reveal.html> "
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Why is Rakhi Garhi Important for Indian history Chronology?
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Recent studies by the Deccan Post Graduate and Research Institute at
          > > Pune , Maharastra, show that Rakhi Garhi is twice the size of Mohenjo
          > > Daro and spread over 400 hectare. The Haryana online site states it
          > > covers of 200 Hectares.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > It is representative of a continuous unbroken culture going to back to
          > > over 9000 years to 7000 BCE.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Earlier conventional thinking was based on the discovery of the Mohenjo
          > > Daro and Harappa sites( now in Pakistan), which were dated to about
          > > 3000 BC down and the c
          > >
          > > civilization was extinguished some time circa 1500 BCE.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Upon the extinguishing of the civilization, it was presumed that the
          > > survivors spread east to Haryana , Punjab ,and Central India.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Rakhi Garhi shows that this view was not correct and that the cultural
          > > developments in Haryana and Punjab were the same as in the Harrapa area.
          > > The discoveries of Dholavira, Lothal etc also showed that the
          > > civilization was spread to the south.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > We thus have a vast civilization which goes back to at least 7000 BCE.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Time frame
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > 1) Early Harappan farming communities :
          > > 6000 - 4500 BC,
          > >
          > > 2) Early Mature Harappan urbanization phase:
          > > 4500 - 3000 BC,
          > >
          > > 3) Highly urbanized Mature Harappan era :
          > > 3000 - 1800 BC
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > The dates were obtained by among other methods including Carbon dating.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > For our purposes they are broadly acceptable.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > What is the significance?
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Ravi Chaudhary
          > >
          >
        • ravichaudhary2000
          ... Thank you This is part of what I ma trying to get across. Cities may have lived and died, rivers too, whole regions may been rendered uninhabitable. The
          Message 4 of 7 , Apr 23, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "urmila" <uduhan@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Dear All,
            >
            > When Indus valley Civilization is discussed, it is inappropriate to use terms such as 'it collapsed'. Where is the evidence for its destruction? There isn't! Papal tree worship from Indus Valley Civilization continues to this day among the Hindus, and so is the reverence for 3 faced deities sitting in yogic positions. The symbol of swastika found on terracotta seals is still a revered religious symbol among Hindus (not a cult symbol as it may be in western areas of the globe).
            >
            >
            > Regards,
            >
            > Urmila.

            Thank you


            This is part of what I ma trying to get across.

            Cities may have lived and died, rivers too, whole regions may been rendered uninhabitable.

            The culture from those times did not die out.

            There is a continuity from 3000 BCE to now


            Ravi Chaudhary
          • nrao
            Did you mean Peepal tree?
            Message 5 of 7 , Apr 24, 2013
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              Did you mean Peepal tree?

              --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "urmila" <uduhan@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Dear All,
              >
              > When Indus valley Civilization is discussed, it is inappropriate to use terms such as 'it collapsed'. Where is the evidence for its destruction? There isn't! Papal tree worship from Indus Valley Civilization continues to this day among the Hindus, and so is the reverence for 3 faced deities sitting in yogic positions. The symbol of swastika found on terracotta seals is still a revered religious symbol among Hindus (not a cult symbol as it may be in western areas of the globe).
              >
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              > Urmila.
              >
              > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "nrao" <nrao2@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Few more pieces of information regarding how dating of the site kept getting older as archaeological digs went deeper and the size of the site kept increasing with better digs:
              > >
              > > Timeline -
              > >
              > > * Suraj Bhan, then a student and Acharya Bhagwan Dev back in 1963 state that Rakhigarhi is a Harappan site after first digs,
              > > * Dr. Suraj Bhan back in 1975, asserted that some parts of this area can be classified as belonging to Sothi-Siswal culture and timeframe, meaning early Harappan period,
              > > * Current reports and interviews with Dr. Vasanth Shinde claim that it goes back to earlier than 5000 BCE, which would be pre-Harappan
              > >
              > > Size -
              > >
              > > * Year 1963 - Size = ?? first reported find by Suraj Bhan (student) and Bhagwan Dev
              > > * Year 1975 - Size = 24 Hectares reported by Dr Suraj Bhan
              > > * Year early 90s - Size = 80 Hectares not sure who reported it but maybe by Kenoyer
              > > * Year 1999 - Size = 224 Hectares by Amerandra Nath ASI
              > > * Year 2012 - Size = 400 Hectares (Dr Vasant Shinde in interview)
              > >
              > > This ought to provide some perspective.
              > >
              > > Found this 6 year old report from Dainik Jagran, Apr 25, 2006 with Wazir Chand photo and more importantly photos of artifacts from his personal collection, I think:
              > >
              > > http://www.hermesonwings.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Article-Local-Newspaper-Dainik-Jagaran-2006.jpg
              > >
              > > In addition, recent surveys by archaeologists from BHU and Cambridge provide quite interesting information.
              > >
              > > They conducted 2 specific surveys:
              > >
              > > i) 2009 was the Rakhigarhi Hinterland survey - "A total of 127 sites were located during this survey. Up to 73 of these have not been recorded in previous survey reports and compilations (e.g. Joshi et al. 1984; Possehl 1999; Kumar 2009; Chakrabarti and Saini 2009), meaning that up to 57% of sites within this particular area are new to knowledge. The chronological distribution of these sites is not skewed to any one period, and in all but the Late Harappan phase, up to 50% of sites have not been recorded previously. The Early Historic period has the highest number and proportion of new sites (48 sites, 61.5%. The number of sites dating to each period is as follows: 29 Early Harappan, 15 Mature Harappan, 32 Late Harappan, 18 PGW, 6 NBPW, 78 Early Historic and 26 Mediaeval, with the urban site of Rakhigarhi being occupied only in the Early and Mature Harappan periods."
              > >
              > > ii) 2010 was the Gagghar Hinterland survey - "This has been called the Ghaggar Hinterland Survey, and effectively surveys the hinterland of some well known Indus Civilisation settlements including Banawali, Bhirrana, and Kunal. A total of 182 sites were located during this survey (Table 1). Up to 125 of these have not been recorded in previous survey reports and compilations (e.g. Joshi et al. 1984; Possehl 1999; Kumar 2009; Chakrabarti and Saini 2009), meaning that up to 69% of sites within this particular area are new to knowledge. In contrast to the Rakhigarhi Hinterland Survey that was carried out by the same project in 2009, the chronological distribution of these new sites is skewed toward the Early Historic (77 sites, 42% new) and Medieval (136 sites, 74% new) period, suggesting that previous surveys have focussed on the identification of Indus Civilisation sites and have not recorded later period sites. Only one Mature Harappan site was new to knowledge, no new Late Harappan sites were discovered, and 6 new Early Harappan sites were identified out of a total of 17. The number of sites dating to each period is as follows: 17 Early Harappan, 8 Mature Harappan, 2 Late Harappan, 11 PGW, 77 Early Historic and 136 Mediaeval."
              > >
              > > So from this small area of about 50-60 km radius, they reported a total 46 sites which are either pre-Harappan or early Harappan (older than 5000 years) with a break down like this - 29 from Rakhigarhi Hinterland survey + 17 from Gagghar Hinterland survey. This is quite an amazing density of pre or early Harappan sites.
              > >
              > > Incidentally, this area also lies between ancient Saraswati and Dradashvati which are so clearly mentioned in Ved and Mahabharat.
              > >
              > > Lastly, Bhirrana and Rakhigarhi have continuous habitation for the past 7000-9000 years.
              > >
              > > -Naveen
              > >
              > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "nrao" wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Ravi,
              > > >
              > > > In addition to these new dates, few related notes:
              > > >
              > > > Orientalists, like to point to the date of 1400 BCE and later for the Aryan invasion pointing to presence of iron around 1200 BCE or later, supposedly brought in by 'Aryans'. Since Harappans are considered as pre-iron, this fits in with their model, as Aryans are credited with introducing iron into India, via northwest.
              > > >
              > > > However, Rakesh Tiwari's article back in 2003, point to presence of iron in UP back as far back as 1800 BCE, pointing to an indigenous development of the metal:
              > > >
              > > > http://antiquity.ac.uk/ant/077/Ant0770536.htm
              > > >
              > > > In addition, there is also reported presence of Steel, in and around 900 BCE (from an area which is not even considered part of the Harappan civ), as reported by Deshpande, Mohanty and Shinde:
              > > >
              > > > http://cs-test.ias.ac.in/cs/Downloads/article_id_099_05_0636_0639_0.pdf
              > > >
              > > > -Naveen
              > > >
              > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "ravichaudhary2000" wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > --- I
              > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > http://www.livemint.com/Leisure/ljfXtPZHUSi5eG8Di1n9YO/History--What-the\
              > > > > \
              > > > > > ir-lives-reveal.html
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Rakhigarhi
              > > > > Extract:
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > " That Rakhigarhi was a large Harappan town was known in 1963, when
              > > > > the area was first surveyed. What archaeologists are finding out now is
              > > > > that it is the biggest ever Harappan city, larger and more extensive
              > > > > than the massive Mohenjo Daro.
              > > > >
              > > > > "The whole site is around 400 hectares, which is nearly double that
              > > > > of Mohenjo Daro," says Vasant Shivram Shinde, professor of
              > > > > archaeology and joint director of the Deccan College Post-Graduate and
              > > > > Research Institute, Pune.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Even though the Harappan or Indus Valley Civilization is one of the
              > > > > three oldest urban civilizations, along with Egypt and Mesopotamia, it
              > > > > is the least understood. Its script is yet to be deciphered, and the
              > > > > knowledge of social structures and life during that period is scant.
              > > > > Rakhigarhi promises to change this too. It is one of the few Harappan
              > > > > sites which has an unbroken history of settlement�Early Harappan
              > > > > farming communities from 6000 to 4500 BC, followed by the Early Mature
              > > > > Harappan urbanization phase from 4500 to 3000 BC, and then the highly
              > > > > urbanized Mature Harappan era from 3000 BC to the mysterious collapse of
              > > > > the civilization around 1800 BC. That's more than 4,000 years of
              > > > > ancient human history packed into the rich soil.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > http://www.livemint.com/Leisure/ljfXtPZHUSi5eG8Di1n9YO/History--What-the\
              > > > > ir-lives-reveal.html
              > > > >
              > > > eir-lives-reveal.html> "
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Why is Rakhi Garhi Important for Indian history Chronology?
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Recent studies by the Deccan Post Graduate and Research Institute at
              > > > > Pune , Maharastra, show that Rakhi Garhi is twice the size of Mohenjo
              > > > > Daro and spread over 400 hectare. The Haryana online site states it
              > > > > covers of 200 Hectares.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > It is representative of a continuous unbroken culture going to back to
              > > > > over 9000 years to 7000 BCE.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Earlier conventional thinking was based on the discovery of the Mohenjo
              > > > > Daro and Harappa sites( now in Pakistan), which were dated to about
              > > > > 3000 BC down and the c
              > > > >
              > > > > civilization was extinguished some time circa 1500 BCE.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Upon the extinguishing of the civilization, it was presumed that the
              > > > > survivors spread east to Haryana , Punjab ,and Central India.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Rakhi Garhi shows that this view was not correct and that the cultural
              > > > > developments in Haryana and Punjab were the same as in the Harrapa area.
              > > > > The discoveries of Dholavira, Lothal etc also showed that the
              > > > > civilization was spread to the south.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > We thus have a vast civilization which goes back to at least 7000 BCE.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Time frame
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > 1) Early Harappan farming communities :
              > > > > 6000 - 4500 BC,
              > > > >
              > > > > 2) Early Mature Harappan urbanization phase:
              > > > > 4500 - 3000 BC,
              > > > >
              > > > > 3) Highly urbanized Mature Harappan era :
              > > > > 3000 - 1800 BC
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > The dates were obtained by among other methods including Carbon dating.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > For our purposes they are broadly acceptable.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > What is the significance?
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Ravi Chaudhary
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
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