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Khap Panchayaten aur gotra by Surajbhan Bhardvaj

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  • YMalaiya
    I have read the article by Surajbhan Bhardvaj.   It has some useful information for those interested in history. However it comes to an incorrect conclusion
    Message 1 of 15 , May 19, 2011
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      I have read the article by Surajbhan Bhardvaj.
       
      It has some useful information for those interested in history. However it comes to an incorrect conclusion and has some incorect information.
       
      I have been interested in the Indian caste system since 1972, when I wrote my first article on the subject. I have looked at the literature on numerous communities.
       
      I have sometimes seen the claim that in a specific caste (endogamous group), there are no gotras (exogamous groups). However late I found out that that caste does have gotras, it is just that the information is not readily available.
       
      The practice of exogamy is found even outside of India, for example in China where the surnames are used as the exogamous units. Exogamy has both biological and social reasons. Marrying within a small goup not only has genetic disadvantages, it causes small groups to socially interact only within a small group.
       
      It should be noted that in many communities the exogamous units are not called gotras. In some cases, the real exogamous units that are avoided for marriage are called something else and the term "gotra" is used for something else.
       
      Bhardvaj's comment on "Hindu Punjabis" is not correct. I presume that he is thinking about the Khatris. They also use clan names as gotras. Sometimes they use a separate term as a gotra.( some Khatris are Brahmin origin.).  His comment about the Bhardvaj brahmins is not applicable to other Brahmins.
       
      In south India, marriage with the daughter of mama is generally permitted, however note that even in that case the boy and the girl belong to different gotras.
       
      Among Muslims, it is common for a couple in the same family to marry. The reason is that the conduct of prophet Muhammad is considered to be ideal. He had married Abu Bakr's daughter Ayesha. Abu Bakr has initially objected saying that "but I am your brother".
      Abu Bakr  and the prophet Muhammed were related through the seventh generation of forefathers.
       
      Some of the Mughal princesses in India were married within the Mughal family itself. However the Muslims Rajputs generally avoid marring within their own clan.
       
      Yashwant

       
       
       
       
      Dear dr ranbir bhai sahib ,
       
      please help me to find a reply to this question with far reaching future implications.hope the WOMEN STUDY CENTER MDU,a body apparently working for the women cause,funded by taxpayer money can give some reply.Of course it should be based on a professional  study /research & not on some lofty ideas/ gut feeling or malafide intent/ some hidden agenda.I am also waiting for a debate on the issue of KHAP PANCHAYATS on three basic issues ie;-
                        a)khap panchayats have no history -as per you.
                         b)the khap panchayats are not SARVAJATIYA -as per jagmati on record.
                          c)the decisions of the khap panchayats are always against the poor &helpless l                & in favour of the powerful-as per jagmati on record.
      If you really believe in the ways of sawami Dayanand then you must organise a debate as early as possible .you should also bear in mind that i have my own rights as per constitution& this tirade/smear campaign is impinging on them&being an astute,learned,widely experienced know well how to guard them against,ill informed imposters&frauds.i hope the message is straight &clear.The ball is in your court bhai sahib .
      REGARDS&BEST WISHES
      COL MS DAHIYA,SHAURYA CHAKRA   

      --- On Mon, 16/5/11, Kad Kaddy <rising_kaddy98@...> wrote:

      From: Kad Kaddy <rising_kaddy98@...>
      Subject: Re: Khap Panchayats has no history
      To: "Col.M.S Dahiya" <col_msdahiya@...>
      Date: Monday, 16 May, 2011, 10:30 AM

      I am pasting here another article by a Chandigarh based Hindi Journalist - Jagmohan Phutela.
       
      तो सिर्फ जाट ही बदनाम क्यों हैं?


      मैंने बुजुर्गों को बचपन ही से शादी ब्याह के वक्त गोत्र, उसमें भी उपजाति, परिवार के मूल स्थान और रीति रिवाज से लेकर वधु की चूड़ियों के रंग तक का अता पता करते देखा है. ये तय करने के लिए कि शादी मिलते जुलते खानदान के साथ तो हो लेकिन गलती से भी अपनी ही उपजाति के लड़के या लड़की से न हो जाए. खासकर पंजाबियों में ये मान कर चला गया है कि खुराना, कक्कड़, मक्कड़, सलूजा, सुखीजा, कपूर या चावला लड़का और लड़की कभी कोई पुरानी जान पहचान न हो तो भी आपस में भाई-बहन होते हैं.

      पुराने ज़माने में संपर्क और सुविधाओं से वंचित समाज में मामा या मौसी के बेटे बेटी के साथ तो शादी जायज़ थी. किसी हद तक आज भी है. लेकिन चाचा या अपनी उपजाति के किसी, कहीं के भी लड़के लड़की की शादी पे पाबंदी थी. आज भी है. एक फर्क के साथ ये पाबंदी मुस्लिम समाज में भी थी. आज भी है. मुसलमानों में दूध के रिश्ते की शादी नाजायज़ है. यानी चाचा के लड़के या लड़की से तो शादी हो सकती है. लेकिन मामा या मौसी के बच्चे से शादी कतई नहीं हो सकती. इस्लाम में ऐसी शादियों को शरीअत के खिलाफ माना गया है. इस तरह की पाबंदियां आप समाज के हर तबके में पायेंगे. मैं भारत की बात कर रहा हूँ. जहां जाट भी रहते हैं. शादी के मामले में कुछ पाबंदियों की परंपरा अपने पूर्वजों से उन्हें भी मिली है शिष्टाचार के तमाम संस्कारों के साथ. और वे लागू भी रही हैं अब से महज़ कुछ महीने पहले तक. स्वभाव से दबंग होने के बावजूद जाट कभी उग्र नहीं हुए. इसलिए कि इसकी नौबत ही नहीं आई.

      अब आई है तो वे आपे से बाहर हुए हैं, हिंसक भी. और आप गौर करें इस हिंसा के पीछे भी परिवार की भूमिका कुछ कम, खाप की ज्यादा है. खाप भीड़ होती है. पर लोकतंत्र में भीड़ की भी एक भाषा होती है. अहमियत भी. हिंसा गलत है. कोई भी दलील किसी हत्या को जायज़ नहीं ठहरा सकती. कानून अपना काम करेगा. उसने किया. यहाँ टकराव दिखा. जो खापों को परंपरा में मिले वो संस्कार कानून की किताब में दर्ज नहीं थे. मनोज, बबली की गयी जान और कोई आधा दर्जन लोगों को फांसी के ऐलान के बाद ही सही समाज के संस्कारों और संविधान का सही मेल हो पाए तो ये बड़े पुण्य का काम होगा. मैं मीडिया में अपने मित्रों से उम्मीद करूँगा कि वे खापों को तालिबान बताने की बजाय एक बार अपने भी गिरेबान में झाँक कर देखें. जब खुद उनके परिवारों में फर्स्ट कजिन के साथ शादी नहीं हो सकती तो फिर इसका विरोध करने के लिए जाट ही बदनाम क्यों हैं? कुछ चिंतन मनन अपने अंतःकरण में जाटों और उनकी खापों को भी करना पड़ेगा. पंजाबियों और मुसलमानों ने तो शादी के लिए ददिहाल और ननिहाल में से एक रास्ता बंद किया है. खापों पे इलज़ाम है कि उनने इन दो के अलावा तीसरे और चौथे रास्ते पे भी नाका सा लगा रखा है.

      ये ज़रूरी है देश की संसद खापों की हिन्दू मैरिज एक्ट में संशोधन की मांग पर विचार करे. शादी के लिए छत्तीसगढ़ और झारखण्ड से कुछ नज़दीक रास्ते जाटों की नई पीढी को भी दिखने चाहिए. वर्ना बेमेल शादियाँ होंगी. फतवे, खतरे होंगे. अदालतों में फ़रियाद होगी तो सुरक्षा मुहय्या कराने के आदेश भी दिए ही जायेंगे. खापों और पुलिस के बीच टकराव हमेशा रहेगा. इससे मुश्किलें बढेंगी. मतभेद मनभेद में बदले तो सरकार के लिए भी गोली डंडा चलाना दुश्वार हो जाएगा. हम सब अस्थायी असहमति के स्थायी अशांति में बदलने का इंतज़ार क्यों करें? ....मान के चलिए कि चौटाला और नवीन जिन्दलों के बाद "भाई-बहनों" की शादियों के खिलाफ तो जाटों के साथ कल दूसरी बिरादरियां भी होंगी.


      Link:- http://vichar.bhadas4media.com/socie...an-futela.html


      --- On Mon, 16/5/11, Col.M.S Dahiya <col_msdahiya@...> wrote:

      From: Col.M.S Dahiya <col_msdahiya@...>
      Subject: Re: Khap Panchayats has no history
      To: "ranbir dahiya" <beerdahiya@...>
      Cc: "diwan singh" <diwans2007@...>, "samar kadian" <rising_kaddy98@...>, "rohnit phore" <rohnit@...>, "Prof. Jagdish Kumar Gehlawat" <gehlawat@...>, "jagmati sangwan" <jagmatisangwan@...>, "shamsher sandhu" <san553@...>, "bharti" <bharti71@...>, "balraj malik" <adv_balrajsmalik@...>, "jathistory yahoo" <jathistory@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Monday, 16 May, 2011, 8:26 AM

      Dear Dr Rabir ji,
      Iam glad that i sent copy ofmy earlier mail to you ,infact i am regreting why did not i take you on board from the very beginning.Rather than pained i am happy that you responded which i knew you would(by now i thoroughly know what lies where).It is below my dignity&intellectual acueman  to target any one &least of all the undividual you are naming ,mainly because she is a lady &her surname revealsas to who she is.T your claim whether KHAP PANCHAYATS have a history or not i will only say, (since you have a literary bent of mind).
                   HAMARE BEECH BASTA HAI WOH,HAR JEHAN MEN JHALAK JISKI.
                   HAR RUH MEN SAMAYA HAI,JIS MEN RAMAK USKI.
                   NA KAYAL MOHAR KA,NA KISI KE REHMO KARAM PAR JINDA HAI WOH,
                   SANS KI TARAH BERANG WA ROOP,NA KOI SEEMA USKI
                                                                          COLONEL MEHAR SINGH "MEHAR"
      I sincerely request you to clear the clouds once for all .Please ask the lady to show you all the mails, i have sent her .In fact what you are saying on a healthy debate i had already made her a similar offer .Please facilitate it in an appropriate forum,may be at the WOMEN STUDY CENTER OR HARYANA STUDY CENTER MDU .I will be obliged .Do pardon me, if you have found any thing against or hurting any body's sensibilities, in my addressing the issue,which has been with absolutely pure intentions&no malice towards any one.I sincerely expect an early response.
      Regards&best wishes
      col ms dahiya,sc
                  

      --- On Sun, 15/5/11, ranbir dahiya <beerdahiya@...> wrote:

      From: ranbir dahiya <beerdahiya@...>
      Subject: Khap Panchayats has no history
      To: col_msdahiya@...
      Date: Sunday, 15 May, 2011, 9:10 PM

      KHAP PANCHAYATS HAVE NO HISTORY
      ARTICLE BY Dr SURAJBHAN BHARDWAJ
      Dear Col MS Dahiya
      I am pained to know that you are personalising the debates and compaigning against individuals.( Jagmati sangwan) Debate method was evolved by Swami Dayanand also. Better we debate democratically and let the people decide what is right and what is wrong . Hope qwe will develop a level of communication regarding those things where we donot agree or are extreeme critical of each other. I am sending this article with a hope that you will respond rationaly as i have been doing at every occasion

      --
      Thanks and Regards,

      Dr. R.S. Dahiya,
      Sr Prof. Surgery
      Mob: +91 9812139001
      Email: beerdahiya@...
      Visit my blogsite: http://secularharyana.com

    • Ajay Singh
      Yshwant.. Read about Greek Caste systems from where Brahmins have stolen the idea and implemented on simple and poor people of India. Greeks were first to
      Message 2 of 15 , May 20, 2011
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        Yshwant.. Read about Greek Caste systems from where Brahmins have stolen the idea and implemented on simple and poor people of India. Greeks were first to follow the caste system and worked very well for the elites just like in Indian today all the system whether Women liberalisation etc. is just blindly copied and aped from America without thinking.

        2011/5/19 YMalaiya <ymalaiya@...>
         

        I have read the article by Surajbhan Bhardvaj.
         
        It has some useful information for those interested in history. However it comes to an incorrect conclusion and has some incorect information.
         
        I have been interested in the Indian caste system since 1972, when I wrote my first article on the subject. I have looked at the literature on numerous communities.
         
        I have sometimes seen the claim that in a specific caste (endogamous group), there are no gotras (exogamous groups). However late I found out that that caste does have gotras, it is just that the information is not readily available.
         
        The practice of exogamy is found even outside of India, for example in China where the surnames are used as the exogamous units. Exogamy has both biological and social reasons. Marrying within a small goup not only has genetic disadvantages, it causes small groups to socially interact only within a small group.
         
        It should be noted that in many communities the exogamous units are not called gotras. In some cases, the real exogamous units that are avoided for marriage are called something else and the term "gotra" is used for something else.
         
        Bhardvaj's comment on "Hindu Punjabis" is not correct. I presume that he is thinking about the Khatris. They also use clan names as gotras. Sometimes they use a separate term as a gotra.( some Khatris are Brahmin origin.).  His comment about the Bhardvaj brahmins is not applicable to other Brahmins.
         
        In south India, marriage with the daughter of mama is generally permitted, however note that even in that case the boy and the girl belong to different gotras.
         
        Among Muslims, it is common for a couple in the same family to marry. The reason is that the conduct of prophet Muhammad is considered to be ideal. He had married Abu Bakr's daughter Ayesha. Abu Bakr has initially objected saying that "but I am your brother".
        Abu Bakr  and the prophet Muhammed were related through the seventh generation of forefathers.
         
        Some of the Mughal princesses in India were married within the Mughal family itself. However the Muslims Rajputs generally avoid marring within their own clan.
         
        Yashwant

         
         
         
         
        Dear dr ranbir bhai sahib ,
         
        please help me to find a reply to this question with far reaching future implications.hope the WOMEN STUDY CENTER MDU,a body apparently working for the women cause,funded by taxpayer money can give some reply.Of course it should be based on a professional  study /research & not on some lofty ideas/ gut feeling or malafide intent/ some hidden agenda.I am also waiting for a debate on the issue of KHAP PANCHAYATS on three basic issues ie;-
                          a)khap panchayats have no history -as per you.
                           b)the khap panchayats are not SARVAJATIYA -as per jagmati on record.
                            c)the decisions of the khap panchayats are always against the poor &helpless l                & in favour of the powerful-as per jagmati on record.
        If you really believe in the ways of sawami Dayanand then you must organise a debate as early as possible .you should also bear in mind that i have my own rights as per constitution& this tirade/smear campaign is impinging on them&being an astute,learned,widely experienced know well how to guard them against,ill informed imposters&frauds.i hope the message is straight &clear.The ball is in your court bhai sahib .
        REGARDS&BEST WISHES
        COL MS DAHIYA,SHAURYA CHAKRA   

        --- On Mon, 16/5/11, Kad Kaddy <rising_kaddy98@...> wrote:

        From: Kad Kaddy <rising_kaddy98@...>
        Subject: Re: Khap Panchayats has no history
        To: "Col.M.S Dahiya" <col_msdahiya@...>
        Date: Monday, 16 May, 2011, 10:30 AM

        I am pasting here another article by a Chandigarh based Hindi Journalist - Jagmohan Phutela.
         
        तो सिर्फ जाट ही बदनाम क्यों हैं?


        मैंने बुजुर्गों को बचपन ही से शादी ब्याह के वक्त गोत्र, उसमें भी उपजाति, परिवार के मूल स्थान और रीति रिवाज से लेकर वधु की चूड़ियों के रंग तक का अता पता करते देखा है. ये तय करने के लिए कि शादी मिलते जुलते खानदान के साथ तो हो लेकिन गलती से भी अपनी ही उपजाति के लड़के या लड़की से न हो जाए. खासकर पंजाबियों में ये मान कर चला गया है कि खुराना, कक्कड़, मक्कड़, सलूजा, सुखीजा, कपूर या चावला लड़का और लड़की कभी कोई पुरानी जान पहचान न हो तो भी आपस में भाई-बहन होते हैं.

        पुराने ज़माने में संपर्क और सुविधाओं से वंचित समाज में मामा या मौसी के बेटे बेटी के साथ तो शादी जायज़ थी. किसी हद तक आज भी है. लेकिन चाचा या अपनी उपजाति के किसी, कहीं के भी लड़के लड़की की शादी पे पाबंदी थी. आज भी है. एक फर्क के साथ ये पाबंदी मुस्लिम समाज में भी थी. आज भी है. मुसलमानों में दूध के रिश्ते की शादी नाजायज़ है. यानी चाचा के लड़के या लड़की से तो शादी हो सकती है. लेकिन मामा या मौसी के बच्चे से शादी कतई नहीं हो सकती. इस्लाम में ऐसी शादियों को शरीअत के खिलाफ माना गया है. इस तरह की पाबंदियां आप समाज के हर तबके में पायेंगे. मैं भारत की बात कर रहा हूँ. जहां जाट भी रहते हैं. शादी के मामले में कुछ पाबंदियों की परंपरा अपने पूर्वजों से उन्हें भी मिली है शिष्टाचार के तमाम संस्कारों के साथ. और वे लागू भी रही हैं अब से महज़ कुछ महीने पहले तक. स्वभाव से दबंग होने के बावजूद जाट कभी उग्र नहीं हुए. इसलिए कि इसकी नौबत ही नहीं आई.

        अब आई है तो वे आपे से बाहर हुए हैं, हिंसक भी. और आप गौर करें इस हिंसा के पीछे भी परिवार की भूमिका कुछ कम, खाप की ज्यादा है. खाप भीड़ होती है. पर लोकतंत्र में भीड़ की भी एक भाषा होती है. अहमियत भी. हिंसा गलत है. कोई भी दलील किसी हत्या को जायज़ नहीं ठहरा सकती. कानून अपना काम करेगा. उसने किया. यहाँ टकराव दिखा. जो खापों को परंपरा में मिले वो संस्कार कानून की किताब में दर्ज नहीं थे. मनोज, बबली की गयी जान और कोई आधा दर्जन लोगों को फांसी के ऐलान के बाद ही सही समाज के संस्कारों और संविधान का सही मेल हो पाए तो ये बड़े पुण्य का काम होगा. मैं मीडिया में अपने मित्रों से उम्मीद करूँगा कि वे खापों को तालिबान बताने की बजाय एक बार अपने भी गिरेबान में झाँक कर देखें. जब खुद उनके परिवारों में फर्स्ट कजिन के साथ शादी नहीं हो सकती तो फिर इसका विरोध करने के लिए जाट ही बदनाम क्यों हैं? कुछ चिंतन मनन अपने अंतःकरण में जाटों और उनकी खापों को भी करना पड़ेगा. पंजाबियों और मुसलमानों ने तो शादी के लिए ददिहाल और ननिहाल में से एक रास्ता बंद किया है. खापों पे इलज़ाम है कि उनने इन दो के अलावा तीसरे और चौथे रास्ते पे भी नाका सा लगा रखा है.

        ये ज़रूरी है देश की संसद खापों की हिन्दू मैरिज एक्ट में संशोधन की मांग पर विचार करे. शादी के लिए छत्तीसगढ़ और झारखण्ड से कुछ नज़दीक रास्ते जाटों की नई पीढी को भी दिखने चाहिए. वर्ना बेमेल शादियाँ होंगी. फतवे, खतरे होंगे. अदालतों में फ़रियाद होगी तो सुरक्षा मुहय्या कराने के आदेश भी दिए ही जायेंगे. खापों और पुलिस के बीच टकराव हमेशा रहेगा. इससे मुश्किलें बढेंगी. मतभेद मनभेद में बदले तो सरकार के लिए भी गोली डंडा चलाना दुश्वार हो जाएगा. हम सब अस्थायी असहमति के स्थायी अशांति में बदलने का इंतज़ार क्यों करें? ....मान के चलिए कि चौटाला और नवीन जिन्दलों के बाद "भाई-बहनों" की शादियों के खिलाफ तो जाटों के साथ कल दूसरी बिरादरियां भी होंगी.


        --- On Mon, 16/5/11, Col.M.S Dahiya <col_msdahiya@...> wrote:

        From: Col.M.S Dahiya <col_msdahiya@...>
        Subject: Re: Khap Panchayats has no history
        To: "ranbir dahiya" <beerdahiya@...>
        Cc: "diwan singh" <diwans2007@...>, "samar kadian" <rising_kaddy98@...>, "rohnit phore" <rohnit@...>, "Prof. Jagdish Kumar Gehlawat" <gehlawat@...>, "jagmati sangwan" <jagmatisangwan@...>, "shamsher sandhu" <san553@...>, "bharti" <bharti71@...>, "balraj malik" <adv_balrajsmalik@...>, "jathistory yahoo" <jathistory@yahoogroups.com>
        Date: Monday, 16 May, 2011, 8:26 AM

        Dear Dr Rabir ji,
        Iam glad that i sent copy ofmy earlier mail to you ,infact i am regreting why did not i take you on board from the very beginning.Rather than pained i am happy that you responded which i knew you would(by now i thoroughly know what lies where).It is below my dignity&intellectual acueman  to target any one &least of all the undividual you are naming ,mainly because she is a lady &her surname revealsas to who she is.T your claim whether KHAP PANCHAYATS have a history or not i will only say, (since you have a literary bent of mind).
                     HAMARE BEECH BASTA HAI WOH,HAR JEHAN MEN JHALAK JISKI.
                     HAR RUH MEN SAMAYA HAI,JIS MEN RAMAK USKI.
                     NA KAYAL MOHAR KA,NA KISI KE REHMO KARAM PAR JINDA HAI WOH,
                     SANS KI TARAH BERANG WA ROOP,NA KOI SEEMA USKI
                                                                            COLONEL MEHAR SINGH "MEHAR"
        I sincerely request you to clear the clouds once for all .Please ask the lady to show you all the mails, i have sent her .In fact what you are saying on a healthy debate i had already made her a similar offer .Please facilitate it in an appropriate forum,may be at the WOMEN STUDY CENTER OR HARYANA STUDY CENTER MDU .I will be obliged .Do pardon me, if you have found any thing against or hurting any body's sensibilities, in my addressing the issue,which has been with absolutely pure intentions&no malice towards any one.I sincerely expect an early response.
        Regards&best wishes
        col ms dahiya,sc
                    

        --- On Sun, 15/5/11, ranbir dahiya <beerdahiya@...> wrote:

        From: ranbir dahiya <beerdahiya@...>
        Subject: Khap Panchayats has no history
        To: col_msdahiya@...
        Date: Sunday, 15 May, 2011, 9:10 PM

        KHAP PANCHAYATS HAVE NO HISTORY
        ARTICLE BY Dr SURAJBHAN BHARDWAJ
        Dear Col MS Dahiya
        I am pained to know that you are personalising the debates and compaigning against individuals.( Jagmati sangwan) Debate method was evolved by Swami Dayanand also. Better we debate democratically and let the people decide what is right and what is wrong . Hope qwe will develop a level of communication regarding those things where we donot agree or are extreeme critical of each other. I am sending this article with a hope that you will respond rationaly as i have been doing at every occasion

        --
        Thanks and Regards,

        Dr. R.S. Dahiya,
        Sr Prof. Surgery
        Mob: +91 9812139001
        Email: beerdahiya@...
        Visit my blogsite: http://secularharyana.com


      • ravichaudhary2000
        ... ******* Yashwant This is going to cause some confusion. Befrre we rush to discuss this issue, let us get our bearings on which article are we talking
        Message 3 of 15 , May 20, 2011
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          --- In JatHisto



          ry@yahoogroups.com, YMalaiya <ymalaiya@...> wrote:
          >
          > I have read the article by Surajbhan Bhardvaj.
          >  
          > It has some useful information for those interested in history. However it comes to an incorrect conclusion and has some incorect information.
          >  
          > I have been interested in the Indian caste system since 1972, when I wrote my first article on the subject. I have looked at the literature on numerous communities.
          >  

          *******

          Yashwant

          This is going to cause some confusion.



          Befrre we rush to discuss this issue, let us get our bearings on which article are we talking about


          The only one I am awre of is the one on Dr Ranbir Dahiya's blog, which is referred to by Col. Dahiya.
          Titled:

          "KHAP PANCHAYATS KA KOYEE ITIHAS NAHIN HAI'


          Is there another one titled"
          http://dahiyars.wordpress.com/2011/05/15/67/
          KHAP PANCHAYATS HAVE NO HISTORY
          ARTICLE BY Dr SURAJBHAN BHARDWAJ


          Is there another one. that you refer to titled" Khap Panchayaten aur gotra" by Surajbhan Bhardvaj

          I have asked Dr Ranbir Singh for the Background of Mr. Suraj Bhan Dahiya.

          I have not got any response or details on that, beyond his comment that ,Mr Bharadwaj is a " historian".

          A search on the net shows one Suraj Bhan Bharadwaj, as part of a trade union, CITU in the Delhi area.

          I am awaiting information from Dr Ranbir Singh.


          Yashwant has pointed out one error in the author's facts. There are quite a few more.


          I think we should wait and get some details, before we devote any time to analyzing his article- the one in Dr Singh's Blog- " That Khap Panchayat's have no History.


          Ravi Chaudhary
        • ymalaiya
          Yes, it is a little confusing. The website http://dahiyars.wordpress.com/2011/05/15/67/ has a title KHAP PANCHAYATS KA KOYEE ITIHAS NAHIN HAI however it
          Message 4 of 15 , May 20, 2011
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            Yes, it is a little confusing.

            The website
            http://dahiyars.wordpress.com/2011/05/15/67/
            has a title "KHAP PANCHAYATS KA KOYEE ITIHAS NAHIN HAI" however it contains images of a Hindi article "Khap Panchayaten aur gotra, ek aitihasik vishleshana", by Surajbhan Bhardvaj which was published in some publication called Udbhavana, pages 12-19.

            Apparently Dr. R.S.Dahiya has scanned the article by Surajbhan Bhardvaj and put it on his blog.

            The article does not say that the Khap Panchayats do not have a history, although it questions the reliability of Pandit Kanharam's manuscript. Its main aim to to trace the history of Jat Panchayats and Gotras and it comes to the conclusion that the ban on same gotra marriage is not necessary.

            I disagree with some of the statements and the concluding comments. Some of the things mentioned, like origin of names of some of the gotras from villages, appear to be right.

            Yashwant





            --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "ravichaudhary2000" <ravichaudhary2000@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In JatHisto
            >
            >
            >
            > ry@yahoogroups.com, YMalaiya <ymalaiya@> wrote:
            > >
            > > I have read the article by Surajbhan Bhardvaj.
            > >  
            > > It has some useful information for those interested in history. However it comes to an incorrect conclusion and has some incorect information.
            > >  
            > > I have been interested in the Indian caste system since 1972, when I wrote my first article on the subject. I have looked at the literature on numerous communities.
            > >  
            >
            > *******
            >
            > Yashwant
            >
            > This is going to cause some confusion.
            >
            >
            >
            > Befrre we rush to discuss this issue, let us get our bearings on which article are we talking about
            >
            >
            > The only one I am awre of is the one on Dr Ranbir Dahiya's blog, which is referred to by Col. Dahiya.
            > Titled:
            >
            > "KHAP PANCHAYATS KA KOYEE ITIHAS NAHIN HAI'
            >
            >
            > Is there another one titled"
            > http://dahiyars.wordpress.com/2011/05/15/67/
            > KHAP PANCHAYATS HAVE NO HISTORY
            > ARTICLE BY Dr SURAJBHAN BHARDWAJ
            >
            >
            > Is there another one. that you refer to titled" Khap Panchayaten aur gotra" by Surajbhan Bhardvaj
            >
            > I have asked Dr Ranbir Singh for the Background of Mr. Suraj Bhan Dahiya.
            >
            > I have not got any response or details on that, beyond his comment that ,Mr Bharadwaj is a " historian".
            >
            > A search on the net shows one Suraj Bhan Bharadwaj, as part of a trade union, CITU in the Delhi area.
            >
            > I am awaiting information from Dr Ranbir Singh.
            >
            >
            > Yashwant has pointed out one error in the author's facts. There are quite a few more.
            >
            >
            > I think we should wait and get some details, before we devote any time to analyzing his article- the one in Dr Singh's Blog- " That Khap Panchayat's have no History.
            >
            >
            > Ravi Chaudhary
            >
          • ravichaudhary2000
            yashwant, You are right the article is Khap Panchayat aur Gotra- Khap Panchayat and Gotra. The Khap panchayat s have no history is Dr.Ranbir s Singh
            Message 5 of 15 , May 20, 2011
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              yashwant,

              You are right the article is Khap Panchayat aur Gotra- Khap Panchayat and Gotra.



              The " Khap panchayat's have no history" is Dr.Ranbir's Singh understanding, based on his reading of the article. He nust have seen something in the article for him to draw that conclusion and use that
              Title.

              He is a member of this group now, and I will encourage him to inform us of what his thought processes were.

              First: the Jat usage of the term is "GOTH", pronounced- -GO- th- the ' is pronounced as in 'go


              It is not pronounced as "Gotra" with an 'r'

              This is very significant.

              In no case of the Jats, do we find the hindu term ' gotra' being used.

              It is always used as a clan name.

              It does not change even though the religion may change to Islam or some other.

              When Hindu commentators start to comment, they confuse the two terms.

              We find this confusion in Mr. Bhardawaj's article.

              Thus at the time of a puja/prayer the yajman cannot take the 'goth' or clan name of someone else, which is common in most Hindu communities.They take the "GOTHRA" of the priest.



              The bride cannot change her goth at the time of the marriage,as some are won't to suggest to get around the inconvenient problem of doing a marriage in the same 'goth'.


              On another note, since you raise the issue- the question of a the name of a goth arising from a village is known to happen, the reverse is also true.

              Mr. Bharadwaj, would have done well to not be sweeping in his conclusions.

              Ravi Chaudhary





              --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "ymalaiya" <ymalaiya@...> wrote:
              >
              > Yes, it is a little confusing.
              >
              > The website
              > http://dahiyars.wordpress.com/2011/05/15/67/
              > has a title "KHAP PANCHAYATS KA KOYEE ITIHAS NAHIN HAI" however it contains images of a Hindi article "Khap Panchayaten aur gotra, ek aitihasik vishleshana", by Surajbhan Bhardvaj which was published in some publication called Udbhavana, pages 12-19.
              >
              > Apparently Dr. R.S.Dahiya has scanned the article by Surajbhan Bhardvaj and put it on his blog.
              >
              > The article does not say that the Khap Panchayats do not have a history, although it questions the reliability of Pandit Kanharam's manuscript. Its main aim to to trace the history of Jat Panchayats and Gotras and it comes to the conclusion that the ban on same gotra marriage is not necessary.
              >
              > I disagree with some of the statements and the concluding comments. Some of the things mentioned, like origin of names of some of the gotras from villages, appear to be right.
              >
              > Yashwant
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "ravichaudhary2000" <ravichaudhary2000@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In JatHisto
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ry@yahoogroups.com, YMalaiya <ymalaiya@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > I have read the article by Surajbhan Bhardvaj.
              > > >  
              > > > It has some useful information for those interested in history. However it comes to an incorrect conclusion and has some incorect information.
              > > >  
              > > > I have been interested in the Indian caste system since 1972, when I wrote my first article on the subject. I have looked at the literature on numerous communities.
              > > >  
              > >
              > > *******
              > >
              > > Yashwant
              > >
              > > This is going to cause some confusion.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Befrre we rush to discuss this issue, let us get our bearings on which article are we talking about
              > >
              > >
              > > The only one I am awre of is the one on Dr Ranbir Dahiya's blog, which is referred to by Col. Dahiya.
              > > Titled:
              > >
              > > "KHAP PANCHAYATS KA KOYEE ITIHAS NAHIN HAI'
              > >
              > >
              > > Is there another one titled"
              > > http://dahiyars.wordpress.com/2011/05/15/67/
              > > KHAP PANCHAYATS HAVE NO HISTORY
              > > ARTICLE BY Dr SURAJBHAN BHARDWAJ
              > >
              > >
              > > Is there another one. that you refer to titled" Khap Panchayaten aur gotra" by Surajbhan Bhardvaj
              > >
              > > I have asked Dr Ranbir Singh for the Background of Mr. Suraj Bhan Dahiya.
              > >
              > > I have not got any response or details on that, beyond his comment that ,Mr Bharadwaj is a " historian".
              > >
              > > A search on the net shows one Suraj Bhan Bharadwaj, as part of a trade union, CITU in the Delhi area.
              > >
              > > I am awaiting information from Dr Ranbir Singh.
              > >
              > >
              > > Yashwant has pointed out one error in the author's facts. There are quite a few more.
              > >
              > >
              > > I think we should wait and get some details, before we devote any time to analyzing his article- the one in Dr Singh's Blog- " That Khap Panchayat's have no History.
              > >
              > >
              > > Ravi Chaudhary
              > >
              >
            • urmila
              ... The message seems to resent women s liberalisation in India. Urmila.
              Message 6 of 15 , May 20, 2011
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                --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, Ajay Singh <asingh71@...> wrote:
                >
                > Indian today all the system whether Women liberalisation etc. is just
                > blindly copied and aped from America without thinking.
                >
                >
                The message seems to resent women's liberalisation in India.

                Urmila.
              • ravichaudhary2000
                I read the same message. My understanding was that Ajay was more concerned about aping the west, and blindly copying what they do without thinking, That
                Message 7 of 15 , May 21, 2011
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                  I read the same message.

                  My understanding was that Ajay was more concerned about " aping the west, and blindly copying what they do without thinking,"

                  That comment applies to many issues, and not just the one he chose to take as an example. One need not single out the west either,as the demon, as when a society is in transition, the attendant changes, and stresses on the existing fabric will generate their own consequences and results. That will happen in any society.


                  Society will adapt and create new structures.

                  e.g in any society today, and I have noticed this is conservative societies too( such as Iran 30 years ago) and in Indian and Canadian societies too, girls do better than boys in their studies.This applies to Jat villages too.

                  That lead to many higher level courses being filled by girls.

                  For current/future family relationships( mating and allied structures on anthropoligical terms), this means the girls could well be earning more than the males.

                  In such cases will we see the end of the patriarchal society?


                  I will agree about the "blind aping" part. That applies to all inputs though, whether eastern or Western.


                  On a historical note though, the Jat society ethic, has been positive for their womenkind, and for the role of women in their society- this includes re marriage, widow remarriage etc.

                  These are gGood ancient traditions going back to Rig Vedic times.Interestingly the Jats are one of the few Indian communities who follow this custom unbroken since those times.

                  That continuity, has implications for the continuity clan names, and it is no accident then that over 60 jat clans names are found in the Rig Veda, as the noted historian B S Dahiya pointed out.

                  The rest of Indian society is becoming more accepting of these practices, and that can be attributed to women's liberalization too, without having to be accused of 'aping the west'.

                  Ravi Chaudhary








                  --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "urmila" <uduhan@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, Ajay Singh <asingh71@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Indian today all the system whether Women liberalisation etc. is just
                  > > blindly copied and aped from America without thinking.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > The message seems to resent women's liberalisation in India.
                  >
                  > Urmila.
                  >
                • ymalaiya
                  How did the castes (endogamous groups) and the gotras (exogamous groups) originate in India? What role, if any, did the Brahmins play? The literature on
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 18, 2011
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                    How did the castes (endogamous groups) and the gotras (exogamous groups) originate in India?

                    What role, if any, did the Brahmins play?

                    The literature on individual castes can be hard to find (Wikipedia has changed that to some extent).

                    There has been a significant interest in attempting to identify the "origin" of specific castes. There were a number of books written during 17-19th century about specific castes. It should be noted that at that time, archaeological inscriptions were not available. Some of the accounts about the origin of many Brahmin castes can be seen Brahmanotpatti-Martanda, a compilation based on many sources.

                    Many books associate the formation of a specific caste with a king, a sage, a divine being or a miraculus event.

                    However with what we know, we have to conclude that in almost all cases, the castes have evolved through a natural process. In some cases, a section of a caste broke off as a result of a dispute which resulted in a new caste. Even in such cases, I suspect events must have been evolutionary.

                    A caste as an endogamous groups (often called bradari, samaj etc) should not be confused with varna, a hypothetical division of all communities into four varnas. In my view the varna system is no longer applicable today, it has not been applicable for quite a long time.

                    It is hard to see how Brahmins could have been a main influence behind emergence of the castes. However they have, being professional scholars, written a few of the books. Since they serve a priests for other communities, sometimes in some communities, the name of a gotra is based on a rishi, from whom the priestly clan derives the descent. (Brahmins regard themselves, biological or spiritual/academic descendants of the rishis).

                    Gotras too must have evolved. In quite a few communities, the gotras are based on the villages they originally lived in. In some other cases, the gotras are based on the professions or the government titles (such as Mehta etc.). This is true for a number of communities.

                    In some cases, names of a few gotras can be found in 11-12th century inscriptions.

                    Yashwant



                    --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, Ajay Singh <asingh71@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Yshwant.. Read about Greek Caste systems from where Brahmins have stolen the
                    > idea and implemented on simple and poor people of India. Greeks were first
                    > to follow the caste system and worked very well for the elites just like in
                    > Indian today all the system whether Women liberalisation etc. is just
                    > blindly copied and aped from America without thinking.
                    >
                    > 2011/5/19 YMalaiya <ymalaiya@...>
                    >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > I have read the article by Surajbhan Bhardvaj.
                    > >
                    > > It has some useful information for those interested in history. However it
                    > > comes to an incorrect conclusion and has some incorect information.
                    > >
                    > > I have been interested in the Indian caste system since 1972, when I wrote
                    > > my first article on the subject. I have looked at the literature on numerous
                    > > communities.
                    > >
                    > > I have sometimes seen the claim that in a specific caste (endogamous
                    > > group), there are no gotras (exogamous groups). However late I found out
                    > > that that caste does have gotras, it is just that the information is not
                    > > readily available.
                    > >
                    > > The practice of exogamy is found even outside of India, for example in
                    > > China where the surnames are used as the exogamous units. Exogamy has both
                    > > biological and social reasons. Marrying within a small goup not only has
                    > > genetic disadvantages, it causes small groups to socially interact only
                    > > within a small group.
                    > >
                    > > It should be noted that in many communities the exogamous units are not
                    > > called gotras. In some cases, the real exogamous units that are avoided for
                    > > marriage are called something else and the term "gotra" is used for
                    > > something else.
                    > >
                    > > Bhardvaj's comment on "Hindu Punjabis" is not correct. I presume that he is
                    > > thinking about the Khatris. They also use clan names as gotras. Sometimes
                    > > they use a separate term as a gotra.( some Khatris are Brahmin origin.).
                    > > His comment about the Bhardvaj brahmins is not applicable to other Brahmins.
                    > >
                    > > In south India, marriage with the daughter of mama is generally permitted,
                    > > however note that even in that case the boy and the girl belong to different
                    > > gotras.
                    > >
                    > > Among Muslims, it is common for a couple in the same family to marry. The
                    > > reason is that the conduct of prophet Muhammad is considered to be ideal. He
                    > > had married Abu Bakr's daughter Ayesha. Abu Bakr has initially objected
                    > > saying that "but I am your brother".
                    > > Abu Bakr and the prophet Muhammed were related through the seventh
                    > > generation of forefathers.
                    > >
                    > > Some of the Mughal princesses in India were married within the Mughal
                    > > family itself. However the Muslims Rajputs generally avoid marring within
                    > > their own clan.
                    > >
                    > > Yashwant
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Dear dr ranbir bhai sahib ,
                    > >
                    > > please help me to find a reply to this question with far reaching future
                    > > implications.hope the WOMEN STUDY CENTER MDU,a body apparently working for
                    > > the women cause,funded by taxpayer money can give some reply.Of course it
                    > > should be based on a professional study /research & not on some lofty
                    > > ideas/ gut feeling or malafide intent/ some hidden agenda.I am also waiting
                    > > for a debate on the issue of KHAP PANCHAYATS on three basic issues ie;-
                    > > a)khap panchayats have no history -as per you.
                    > > b)the khap panchayats are not SARVAJATIYA -as per
                    > > jagmati on record.
                    > > c)the decisions of the khap panchayats are always
                    > > against the poor &helpless l & in favour of the powerful-as
                    > > per jagmati on record.
                    > > If you really believe in the ways of sawami Dayanand then you must organise
                    > > a debate as early as possible .you should also bear in mind that i have my
                    > > own rights as per constitution& this tirade/smear campaign is impinging on
                    > > them&being an astute,learned,widely experienced know well how to guard them
                    > > against,ill informed imposters&frauds.i hope the message is straight
                    > > &clear.The ball is in your court bhai sahib .
                    > > REGARDS&BEST WISHES
                    > > COL MS DAHIYA,SHAURYA CHAKRA
                    > >
                    > > --- On *Mon, 16/5/11, Kad Kaddy <rising_kaddy98@>* wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > From: Kad Kaddy <rising_kaddy98@>
                    > > Subject: Re: Khap Panchayats has no history
                    > > To: "Col.M.S Dahiya" <col_msdahiya@>
                    > > Date: Monday, 16 May, 2011, 10:30 AM
                    > >
                    > > I am pasting here another article by a Chandigarh based Hindi
                    > > Journalist - Jagmohan Phutela.
                    > >
                    > > *तो सिर्फ जाट ही बदनाम क्यों हैं?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > *मैंने बुजुर्गों को बचपन ही से शादी ब्याह के वक्त गोत्र, उसमें भी उपजाति,
                    > > परिवार के मूल स्थान à¤"र रीति रिवाज से लेकर वधु की चूड़ियों के रंग तक का अता
                    > > पता करते देखा है. ये तय करने के लिए कि शादी मिलते जुलते खानदान के साथ तो हो
                    > > लेकिन गलती से भी अपनी ही उपजाति के लड़के या लड़की से न हो जाए. खासकर पंजाबियों
                    > > में ये मान कर चला गया है कि खुराना, कक्कड़, मक्कड़, सलूजा, सुखीजा, कपूर या
                    > > चावला लड़का à¤"र लड़की कभी कोई पुरानी जान पहचान न हो तो भी आपस में भाई-बहन होते
                    > > हैं.
                    > >
                    > > पुराने ज़माने में संपर्क à¤"र सुविधाà¤"ं से वंचित समाज में मामा या मौसी के बेटे
                    > > बेटी के साथ तो शादी जायज़ थी. किसी हद तक आज भी है. लेकिन चाचा या अपनी उपजाति
                    > > के किसी, कहीं के भी लड़के लड़की की शादी पे पाबंदी थी. आज भी है. एक फर्क के साथ
                    > > ये पाबंदी मुस्लिम समाज में भी थी. आज भी है. मुसलमानों में दूध के रिश्ते की
                    > > शादी नाजायज़ है. यानी चाचा के लड़के या लड़की से तो शादी हो सकती है. लेकिन मामा
                    > > या मौसी के बच्चे से शादी कतई नहीं हो सकती. इस्लाम में ऐसी शादियों को शरीअत
                    > > के खिलाफ माना गया है. इस तरह की पाबंदियां आप समाज के हर तबके में पायेंगे.
                    > > मैं भारत की बात कर रहा हूँ. जहां जाट भी रहते हैं. शादी के मामले में कुछ
                    > > पाबंदियों की परंपरा अपने पूर्वजों से उन्हें भी मिली है शिष्टाचार के तमाम
                    > > संस्कारों के साथ. à¤"र वे लागू भी रही हैं अब से महज़ कुछ महीने पहले तक. स्वभाव
                    > > से दबंग होने के बावजूद जाट कभी उग्र नहीं हुए. इसलिए कि इसकी नौबत ही नहीं आई.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > अब आई है तो वे आपे से बाहर हुए हैं, हिंसक भी. à¤"र आप गौर करें इस हिंसा के
                    > > पीछे भी परिवार की भूमिका कुछ कम, खाप की ज्यादा है. खाप भीड़ होती है. पर
                    > > लोकतंत्र में भीड़ की भी एक भाषा होती है. अहमियत भी. हिंसा गलत है. कोई भी
                    > > दलील किसी हत्या को जायज़ नहीं ठहरा सकती. कानून अपना काम करेगा. उसने किया.
                    > > यहाँ टकराव दिखा. जो खापों को परंपरा में मिले वो संस्कार कानून की किताब में
                    > > दर्ज नहीं थे. मनोज, बबली की गयी जान à¤"र कोई आधा दर्जन लोगों को फांसी के ऐलान
                    > > के बाद ही सही समाज के संस्कारों à¤"र संविधान का सही मेल हो पाए तो ये बड़े
                    > > पुण्य का काम होगा. मैं मीडिया में अपने मित्रों से उम्मीद करूँगा कि वे खापों
                    > > को तालिबान बताने की बजाय एक बार अपने भी गिरेबान में झाँक कर देखें. जब खुद
                    > > उनके परिवारों में फर्स्ट कजिन के साथ शादी नहीं हो सकती तो फिर इसका विरोध
                    > > करने के लिए जाट ही बदनाम क्यों हैं? कुछ चिंतन मनन अपने अंतःकरण में जाटों à¤"र
                    > > उनकी खापों को भी करना पड़ेगा. पंजाबियों à¤"र मुसलमानों ने तो शादी के लिए ददिहाल
                    > > à¤"र ननिहाल में से एक रास्ता बंद किया है. खापों पे इलज़ाम है कि उनने इन दो के
                    > > अलावा तीसरे à¤"र चौथे रास्ते पे भी नाका सा लगा रखा है.
                    > >
                    > > ये ज़रूरी है देश की संसद खापों की हिन्दू मैरिज एक्ट में संशोधन की मांग पर
                    > > विचार करे. शादी के लिए छत्तीसगढ़ à¤"र झारखण्ड से कुछ नज़दीक रास्ते जाटों की नई
                    > > पीढी को भी दिखने चाहिए. वर्ना बेमेल शादियाँ होंगी. फतवे, खतरे होंगे. अदालतों
                    > > में फ़रियाद होगी तो सुरक्षा मुहय्या कराने के आदेश भी दिए ही जायेंगे. खापों à¤"र
                    > > पुलिस के बीच टकराव हमेशा रहेगा. इससे मुश्किलें बढेंगी. मतभेद मनभेद में बदले
                    > > तो सरकार के लिए भी गोली डंडा चलाना दुश्वार हो जाएगा. हम सब अस्थायी असहमति के
                    > > स्थायी अशांति में बदलने का इंतज़ार क्यों करें? ....मान के चलिए कि चौटाला à¤"र
                    > > नवीन जिन्दलों के बाद "भाई-बहनों" की शादियों के खिलाफ तो जाटों के साथ कल
                    > > दूसरी बिरादरियां भी होंगी.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Link:- http://vichar.bhadas4media.com/socie...an-futela.html<http://vichar.bhadas4media.com/society/302-jagmohan-futela.html>
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- On *Mon, 16/5/11, Col.M.S Dahiya <col_msdahiya@>* wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > From: Col.M.S Dahiya <col_msdahiya@>
                    > > Subject: Re: Khap Panchayats has no history
                    > > To: "ranbir dahiya" <beerdahiya@>
                    > > Cc: "diwan singh" <diwans2007@>, "samar kadian" <rising_kaddy98@>,
                    > > "rohnit phore" <rohnit@>, "Prof. Jagdish Kumar Gehlawat" <gehlawat@>,
                    > > "jagmati sangwan" <jagmatisangwan@>, "shamsher sandhu" <san553@>,
                    > > "bharti" <bharti71@>, "balraj malik" <adv_balrajsmalik@>,
                    > > "jathistory yahoo" <jathistory@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Date: Monday, 16 May, 2011, 8:26 AM
                    > >
                    > > Dear Dr Rabir ji,
                    > > Iam glad that i sent copy ofmy earlier mail to you ,infact i am regreting
                    > > why did not i take you on board from the very beginning.Rather than pained i
                    > > am happy that you responded which i knew you would(by now i thoroughly know
                    > > what lies where).It is below my dignity&intellectual acueman to target any
                    > > one &least of all the undividual you are naming ,mainly because she is a
                    > > lady &her surname revealsas to who she is.T your claim whether KHAP
                    > > PANCHAYATS have a history or not i will only say, (since you have a literary
                    > > bent of mind).
                    > > HAMARE BEECH BASTA HAI WOH,HAR JEHAN MEN JHALAK JISKI.
                    > > HAR RUH MEN SAMAYA HAI,JIS MEN RAMAK USKI.
                    > > NA KAYAL MOHAR KA,NA KISI KE REHMO KARAM PAR JINDA HAI WOH,
                    > > SANS KI TARAH BERANG WA ROOP,NA KOI SEEMA USKI
                    > > COLONEL
                    > > MEHAR SINGH "MEHAR"
                    > > I sincerely request you to clear the clouds once for all .Please ask the
                    > > lady to show you all the mails, i have sent her .In fact what you are saying
                    > > on a healthy debate i had already made her a similar offer .Please
                    > > facilitate it in an appropriate forum,may be at the WOMEN STUDY CENTER OR
                    > > HARYANA STUDY CENTER MDU .I will be obliged .Do pardon me, if you have found
                    > > any thing against or hurting any body's sensibilities, in my addressing the
                    > > issue,which has been with absolutely pure intentions&no malice towards any
                    > > one.I sincerely expect an early response.
                    > > Regards&best wishes
                    > > col ms dahiya,sc
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- On *Sun, 15/5/11, ranbir dahiya <beerdahiya@>* wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > From: ranbir dahiya <beerdahiya@>
                    > > Subject: Khap Panchayats has no history
                    > > To: col_msdahiya@
                    > > Date: Sunday, 15 May, 2011, 9:10 PM
                    > >
                    > > http://dahiyars.wordpress.com/2011/05/15/67/
                    > > KHAP PANCHAYATS HAVE NO HISTORY
                    > > ARTICLE BY Dr SURAJBHAN BHARDWAJ
                    > > Dear Col MS Dahiya
                    > > I am pained to know that you are personalising the debates and compaigning
                    > > against individuals.( Jagmati sangwan) Debate method was evolved by Swami
                    > > Dayanand also. Better we debate democratically and let the people decide
                    > > what is right and what is wrong . Hope qwe will develop a level of
                    > > communication regarding those things where we donot agree or are extreeme
                    > > critical of each other. I am sending this article with a hope that you will
                    > > respond rationaly as i have been doing at every occasion
                    > >
                    > > --
                    > > Thanks and Regards,
                    > >
                    > > Dr. R.S. Dahiya,
                    > > Sr Prof. Surgery
                    > > Mob: +91 9812139001
                    > > Email: beerdahiya@<http://in.mc954.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=beerdahiya@...>
                    > > Visit my blogsite: http://secularharyana.com
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • ravichaudhary2000
                    The term `caste is quite confusing as is the term ` gothra I tend to agree with Yashwant, on his understanding of ` caste . Caste, is a ` community in hindi,
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 22, 2011
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                      The term `caste is quite confusing as is the term ` gothra'

                      I tend to agree with Yashwant, on his understanding of ` caste'.

                      Caste, is a ` community' in hindi, `samsj', `biradari'. Actually' Jath' would be closer.

                      Gothra. And Goth( the term used by Jats).

                      There is a major difference between Gothra and GOTH.

                      Goth to the Jats, mean "clan".

                      Gothra is generally taken as a `brahminical/orthodox hinduism' term, and has a mythical ancestry, being traced to the mythical rishis of `vedic' times.

                      When a hindu priest ` a brahmin; performs the prayer ceremony, the yajman, the offerror takes on this `mythical gothra ` of the priest, having in the orthodox hindu tradition no gothra of his own.

                      I tend to think that many `Brahmin' writers, who have written a number of books, considering themselves professional writers, have done themselves, history, and the study of history a disservice , by not distinguishing between these definitions, and allowing, I suspect, a tendency for personal biases to overcome the requirement of objectivity.

                      This has caused much angst amongst many people, which leads those critical of these acts to take an unkindly view of these writers. That unfortunately gets translated into unkind stereotyping.

                      Ravi Chaudhary





                      To those who follow


                      The origin of Castes and Gotras

                      How did the castes (endogamous groups) and the gotras (exogamous groups)
                      originate in India?

                      What role, if any, did the Brahmins play?

                      The literature on individual castes can be hard to find (Wikipedia has changed
                      that to some extent).

                      There has been a significant interest in attempting to identify the "origin" of
                      specific castes. There were a number of books written during 17-19th century
                      about specific castes. It should be noted that at that time, archaeological
                      inscriptions were not available. Some of the accounts about the origin of many
                      Brahmin castes can be seen Brahmanotpatti-Martanda, a compilation based on many
                      sources.

                      Many books associate the formation of a specific caste with a king, a sage, a
                      divine being or a miraculus event.

                      However with what we know, we have to conclude that in almost all cases, the
                      castes have evolved through a natural process. In some cases, a section of a
                      caste broke off as a result of a dispute which resulted in a new caste. Even in
                      such cases, I suspect events must have been evolutionary.

                      A caste as an endogamous groups (often called bradari, samaj etc) should not be
                      confused with varna, a hypothetical division of all communities into four
                      varnas. In my view the varna system is no longer applicable today, it has not
                      been applicable for quite a long time.

                      It is hard to see how Brahmins could have been a main influence behind emergence
                      of the castes. However they have, being professional scholars, written a few of
                      the books. Since they serve a priests for other communities, sometimes in some
                      communities, the name of a gotra is based on a rishi, from whom the priestly
                      clan derives the descent. (Brahmins regard themselves, biological or
                      spiritual/academic descendants of the rishis).

                      Gotras too must have evolved. In quite a few communities, the gotras are based
                      on the villages they originally lived in. In some other cases, the gotras are
                      based on the professions or the government titles (such as Mehta etc.). This is
                      true for a number of communities.

                      In some cases, names of a few gotras can be found in 11-12th century
                      inscriptions.

                      Yashwant
                    • msanglikar
                      I have seen that in almost all the articles on castes, there is no scientific research, they do not know about the Stock and Race etc and they are
                      Message 10 of 15 , Aug 1, 2011
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                        I have seen that in almost all the articles on castes, there is no scientific research, they do not know about the 'Stock' and 'Race' etc and they are dependent of some pothis written by Brahmins which connect the castes to Vedic Origin.

                        -Mahavir

                        --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "ymalaiya" <ymalaiya@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > How did the castes (endogamous groups) and the gotras (exogamous groups) originate in India?
                        >
                        > What role, if any, did the Brahmins play?
                        >
                        > The literature on individual castes can be hard to find (Wikipedia has changed that to some extent).
                        >
                        > There has been a significant interest in attempting to identify the "origin" of specific castes. There were a number of books written during 17-19th century about specific castes. It should be noted that at that time, archaeological inscriptions were not available. Some of the accounts about the origin of many Brahmin castes can be seen Brahmanotpatti-Martanda, a compilation based on many sources.
                        >
                        > Many books associate the formation of a specific caste with a king, a sage, a divine being or a miraculus event.
                        >
                        > However with what we know, we have to conclude that in almost all cases, the castes have evolved through a natural process. In some cases, a section of a caste broke off as a result of a dispute which resulted in a new caste. Even in such cases, I suspect events must have been evolutionary.
                        >
                        > A caste as an endogamous groups (often called bradari, samaj etc) should not be confused with varna, a hypothetical division of all communities into four varnas. In my view the varna system is no longer applicable today, it has not been applicable for quite a long time.
                        >
                        > It is hard to see how Brahmins could have been a main influence behind emergence of the castes. However they have, being professional scholars, written a few of the books. Since they serve a priests for other communities, sometimes in some communities, the name of a gotra is based on a rishi, from whom the priestly clan derives the descent. (Brahmins regard themselves, biological or spiritual/academic descendants of the rishis).
                        >
                        > Gotras too must have evolved. In quite a few communities, the gotras are based on the villages they originally lived in. In some other cases, the gotras are based on the professions or the government titles (such as Mehta etc.). This is true for a number of communities.
                        >
                        > In some cases, names of a few gotras can be found in 11-12th century inscriptions.
                        >
                        > Yashwant
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, Ajay Singh <asingh71@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Yshwant.. Read about Greek Caste systems from where Brahmins have stolen the
                        > > idea and implemented on simple and poor people of India. Greeks were first
                        > > to follow the caste system and worked very well for the elites just like in
                        > > Indian today all the system whether Women liberalisation etc. is just
                        > > blindly copied and aped from America without thinking.
                        > >
                        > > 2011/5/19 YMalaiya <ymalaiya@>
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > I have read the article by Surajbhan Bhardvaj.
                        > > >
                        > > > It has some useful information for those interested in history. However it
                        > > > comes to an incorrect conclusion and has some incorect information.
                        > > >
                        > > > I have been interested in the Indian caste system since 1972, when I wrote
                        > > > my first article on the subject. I have looked at the literature on numerous
                        > > > communities.
                        > > >
                        > > > I have sometimes seen the claim that in a specific caste (endogamous
                        > > > group), there are no gotras (exogamous groups). However late I found out
                        > > > that that caste does have gotras, it is just that the information is not
                        > > > readily available.
                        > > >
                        > > > The practice of exogamy is found even outside of India, for example in
                        > > > China where the surnames are used as the exogamous units. Exogamy has both
                        > > > biological and social reasons. Marrying within a small goup not only has
                        > > > genetic disadvantages, it causes small groups to socially interact only
                        > > > within a small group.
                        > > >
                        > > > It should be noted that in many communities the exogamous units are not
                        > > > called gotras. In some cases, the real exogamous units that are avoided for
                        > > > marriage are called something else and the term "gotra" is used for
                        > > > something else.
                        > > >
                        > > > Bhardvaj's comment on "Hindu Punjabis" is not correct. I presume that he is
                        > > > thinking about the Khatris. They also use clan names as gotras. Sometimes
                        > > > they use a separate term as a gotra.( some Khatris are Brahmin origin.).
                        > > > His comment about the Bhardvaj brahmins is not applicable to other Brahmins.
                        > > >
                        > > > In south India, marriage with the daughter of mama is generally permitted,
                        > > > however note that even in that case the boy and the girl belong to different
                        > > > gotras.
                        > > >
                        > > > Among Muslims, it is common for a couple in the same family to marry. The
                        > > > reason is that the conduct of prophet Muhammad is considered to be ideal. He
                        > > > had married Abu Bakr's daughter Ayesha. Abu Bakr has initially objected
                        > > > saying that "but I am your brother".
                        > > > Abu Bakr and the prophet Muhammed were related through the seventh
                        > > > generation of forefathers.
                        > > >
                        > > > Some of the Mughal princesses in India were married within the Mughal
                        > > > family itself. However the Muslims Rajputs generally avoid marring within
                        > > > their own clan.
                        > > >
                        > > > Yashwant
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Dear dr ranbir bhai sahib ,
                        > > >
                        > > > please help me to find a reply to this question with far reaching future
                        > > > implications.hope the WOMEN STUDY CENTER MDU,a body apparently working for
                        > > > the women cause,funded by taxpayer money can give some reply.Of course it
                        > > > should be based on a professional study /research & not on some lofty
                        > > > ideas/ gut feeling or malafide intent/ some hidden agenda.I am also waiting
                        > > > for a debate on the issue of KHAP PANCHAYATS on three basic issues ie;-
                        > > > a)khap panchayats have no history -as per you.
                        > > > b)the khap panchayats are not SARVAJATIYA -as per
                        > > > jagmati on record.
                        > > > c)the decisions of the khap panchayats are always
                        > > > against the poor &helpless l & in favour of the powerful-as
                        > > > per jagmati on record.
                        > > > If you really believe in the ways of sawami Dayanand then you must organise
                        > > > a debate as early as possible .you should also bear in mind that i have my
                        > > > own rights as per constitution& this tirade/smear campaign is impinging on
                        > > > them&being an astute,learned,widely experienced know well how to guard them
                        > > > against,ill informed imposters&frauds.i hope the message is straight
                        > > > &clear.The ball is in your court bhai sahib .
                        > > > REGARDS&BEST WISHES
                        > > > COL MS DAHIYA,SHAURYA CHAKRA
                        > > >
                        > > > --- On *Mon, 16/5/11, Kad Kaddy <rising_kaddy98@>* wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > From: Kad Kaddy <rising_kaddy98@>
                        > > > Subject: Re: Khap Panchayats has no history
                        > > > To: "Col.M.S Dahiya" <col_msdahiya@>
                        > > > Date: Monday, 16 May, 2011, 10:30 AM
                        > > >
                        > > > I am pasting here another article by a Chandigarh based Hindi
                        > > > Journalist - Jagmohan Phutela.
                        > > >
                        > > > *तो सिर्फ जाट ही बदनाम क्यों हैं?
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > *मैंने बुजुर्गों को बचपन ही से शादी ब्याह के वक्त गोत्र, उसमें भी उपजाति,
                        > > > परिवार के मूल स्थान �"र रीति रिवाज से लेकर वधु की चूड़ियों के रंग तक का अता
                        > > > पता करते देखा है. ये तय करने के लिए कि शादी मिलते जुलते खानदान के साथ तो हो
                        > > > लेकिन गलती से भी अपनी ही उपजाति के लड़के या लड़की से न हो जाए. खासकर पंजाबियों
                        > > > में ये मान कर चला गया है कि खुराना, कक्कड़, मक्कड़, सलूजा, सुखीजा, कपूर या
                        > > > चावला लड़का �"र लड़की कभी कोई पुरानी जान पहचान न हो तो भी आपस में भाई-बहन होते
                        > > > हैं.
                        > > >
                        > > > पुराने ज़माने में संपर्क �"र सुविधा�"ं से वंचित समाज में मामा या मौसी के बेटे
                        > > > बेटी के साथ तो शादी जायज़ थी. किसी हद तक आज भी है. लेकिन चाचा या अपनी उपजाति
                        > > > के किसी, कहीं के भी लड़के लड़की की शादी पे पाबंदी थी. आज भी है. एक फर्क के साथ
                        > > > ये पाबंदी मुस्लिम समाज में भी थी. आज भी है. मुसलमानों में दूध के रिश्ते की
                        > > > शादी नाजायज़ है. यानी चाचा के लड़के या लड़की से तो शादी हो सकती है. लेकिन मामा
                        > > > या मौसी के बच्चे से शादी कतई नहीं हो सकती. इस्लाम में ऐसी शादियों को शरीअत
                        > > > के खिलाफ माना गया है. इस तरह की पाबंदियां आप समाज के हर तबके में पायेंगे.
                        > > > मैं भारत की बात कर रहा हूँ. जहां जाट भी रहते हैं. शादी के मामले में कुछ
                        > > > पाबंदियों की परंपरा अपने पूर्वजों से उन्हें भी मिली है शिष्टाचार के तमाम
                        > > > संस्कारों के साथ. �"र वे लागू भी रही हैं अब से महज़ कुछ महीने पहले तक. स्वभाव
                        > > > से दबंग होने के बावजूद जाट कभी उग्र नहीं हुए. इसलिए कि इसकी नौबत ही नहीं आई.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > अब आई है तो वे आपे से बाहर हुए हैं, हिंसक भी. �"र आप गौर करें इस हिंसा के
                        > > > पीछे भी परिवार की भूमिका कुछ कम, खाप की ज्यादा है. खाप भीड़ होती है. पर
                        > > > लोकतंत्र में भीड़ की भी एक भाषा होती है. अहमियत भी. हिंसा गलत है. कोई भी
                        > > > दलील किसी हत्या को जायज़ नहीं ठहरा सकती. कानून अपना काम करेगा. उसने किया.
                        > > > यहाँ टकराव दिखा. जो खापों को परंपरा में मिले वो संस्कार कानून की किताब में
                        > > > दर्ज नहीं थे. मनोज, बबली की गयी जान �"र कोई आधा दर्जन लोगों को फांसी के ऐलान
                        > > > के बाद ही सही समाज के संस्कारों �"र संविधान का सही मेल हो पाए तो ये बड़े
                        > > > पुण्य का काम होगा. मैं मीडिया में अपने मित्रों से उम्मीद करूँगा कि वे खापों
                        > > > को तालिबान बताने की बजाय एक बार अपने भी गिरेबान में झाँक कर देखें. जब खुद
                        > > > उनके परिवारों में फर्स्ट कजिन के साथ शादी नहीं हो सकती तो फिर इसका विरोध
                        > > > करने के लिए जाट ही बदनाम क्यों हैं? कुछ चिंतन मनन अपने अंतःकरण में जाटों �"र
                        > > > उनकी खापों को भी करना पड़ेगा. पंजाबियों �"र मुसलमानों ने तो शादी के लिए ददिहाल
                        > > > �"र ननिहाल में से एक रास्ता बंद किया है. खापों पे इलज़ाम है कि उनने इन दो के
                        > > > अलावा तीसरे �"र चौथे रास्ते पे भी नाका सा लगा रखा है.
                        > > >
                        > > > ये ज़रूरी है देश की संसद खापों की हिन्दू मैरिज एक्ट में संशोधन की मांग पर
                        > > > विचार करे. शादी के लिए छत्तीसगढ़ �"र झारखण्ड से कुछ नज़दीक रास्ते जाटों की नई
                        > > > पीढी को भी दिखने चाहिए. वर्ना बेमेल शादियाँ होंगी. फतवे, खतरे होंगे. अदालतों
                        > > > में फ़रियाद होगी तो सुरक्षा मुहय्या कराने के आदेश भी दिए ही जायेंगे. खापों �"र
                        > > > पुलिस के बीच टकराव हमेशा रहेगा. इससे मुश्किलें बढेंगी. मतभेद मनभेद में बदले
                        > > > तो सरकार के लिए भी गोली डंडा चलाना दुश्वार हो जाएगा. हम सब अस्थायी असहमति के
                        > > > स्थायी अशांति में बदलने का इंतज़ार क्यों करें? ....मान के चलिए कि चौटाला �"र
                        > > > नवीन जिन्दलों के बाद "भाई-बहनों" की शादियों के खिलाफ तो जाटों के साथ कल
                        > > > दूसरी बिरादरियां भी होंगी.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Link:- http://vichar.bhadas4media.com/socie...an-futela.html<http://vichar.bhadas4media.com/society/302-jagmohan-futela.html>
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- On *Mon, 16/5/11, Col.M.S Dahiya <col_msdahiya@>* wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > From: Col.M.S Dahiya <col_msdahiya@>
                        > > > Subject: Re: Khap Panchayats has no history
                        > > > To: "ranbir dahiya" <beerdahiya@>
                        > > > Cc: "diwan singh" <diwans2007@>, "samar kadian" <rising_kaddy98@>,
                        > > > "rohnit phore" <rohnit@>, "Prof. Jagdish Kumar Gehlawat" <gehlawat@>,
                        > > > "jagmati sangwan" <jagmatisangwan@>, "shamsher sandhu" <san553@>,
                        > > > "bharti" <bharti71@>, "balraj malik" <adv_balrajsmalik@>,
                        > > > "jathistory yahoo" <jathistory@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > Date: Monday, 16 May, 2011, 8:26 AM
                        > > >
                        > > > Dear Dr Rabir ji,
                        > > > Iam glad that i sent copy ofmy earlier mail to you ,infact i am regreting
                        > > > why did not i take you on board from the very beginning.Rather than pained i
                        > > > am happy that you responded which i knew you would(by now i thoroughly know
                        > > > what lies where).It is below my dignity&intellectual acueman to target any
                        > > > one &least of all the undividual you are naming ,mainly because she is a
                        > > > lady &her surname revealsas to who she is.T your claim whether KHAP
                        > > > PANCHAYATS have a history or not i will only say, (since you have a literary
                        > > > bent of mind).
                        > > > HAMARE BEECH BASTA HAI WOH,HAR JEHAN MEN JHALAK JISKI.
                        > > > HAR RUH MEN SAMAYA HAI,JIS MEN RAMAK USKI.
                        > > > NA KAYAL MOHAR KA,NA KISI KE REHMO KARAM PAR JINDA HAI WOH,
                        > > > SANS KI TARAH BERANG WA ROOP,NA KOI SEEMA USKI
                        > > > COLONEL
                        > > > MEHAR SINGH "MEHAR"
                        > > > I sincerely request you to clear the clouds once for all .Please ask the
                        > > > lady to show you all the mails, i have sent her .In fact what you are saying
                        > > > on a healthy debate i had already made her a similar offer .Please
                        > > > facilitate it in an appropriate forum,may be at the WOMEN STUDY CENTER OR
                        > > > HARYANA STUDY CENTER MDU .I will be obliged .Do pardon me, if you have found
                        > > > any thing against or hurting any body's sensibilities, in my addressing the
                        > > > issue,which has been with absolutely pure intentions&no malice towards any
                        > > > one.I sincerely expect an early response.
                        > > > Regards&best wishes
                        > > > col ms dahiya,sc
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- On *Sun, 15/5/11, ranbir dahiya <beerdahiya@>* wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > From: ranbir dahiya <beerdahiya@>
                        > > > Subject: Khap Panchayats has no history
                        > > > To: col_msdahiya@
                        > > > Date: Sunday, 15 May, 2011, 9:10 PM
                        > > >
                        > > > http://dahiyars.wordpress.com/2011/05/15/67/
                        > > > KHAP PANCHAYATS HAVE NO HISTORY
                        > > > ARTICLE BY Dr SURAJBHAN BHARDWAJ
                        > > > Dear Col MS Dahiya
                        > > > I am pained to know that you are personalising the debates and compaigning
                        > > > against individuals.( Jagmati sangwan) Debate method was evolved by Swami
                        > > > Dayanand also. Better we debate democratically and let the people decide
                        > > > what is right and what is wrong . Hope qwe will develop a level of
                        > > > communication regarding those things where we donot agree or are extreeme
                        > > > critical of each other. I am sending this article with a hope that you will
                        > > > respond rationaly as i have been doing at every occasion
                        > > >
                        > > > --
                        > > > Thanks and Regards,
                        > > >
                        > > > Dr. R.S. Dahiya,
                        > > > Sr Prof. Surgery
                        > > > Mob: +91 9812139001
                        > > > Email: beerdahiya@<http://in.mc954.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=beerdahiya@>
                        > > > Visit my blogsite: http://secularharyana.com
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • Ajay Singh
                        Historicall similar caste system was developed in Greek at the time of their zenith power and it worked very well in the soceity like the current Socila
                        Message 11 of 15 , Aug 4, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Historicall similar caste system was developed in Greek at the time of their zenith power and it worked very well in the soceity like the current Socila Security system in US. Brahmins never invented thye just copied and paste on illeterate Indian people. In India it is still working very well and as time changes Brahmins join hands with SC ST to remain in power. Thanks.

                          2011/6/18 ymalaiya <ymalaiya@...>
                           

                          How did the castes (endogamous groups) and the gotras (exogamous groups) originate in India?

                          What role, if any, did the Brahmins play?

                          The literature on individual castes can be hard to find (Wikipedia has changed that to some extent).

                          There has been a significant interest in attempting to identify the "origin" of specific castes. There were a number of books written during 17-19th century about specific castes. It should be noted that at that time, archaeological inscriptions were not available. Some of the accounts about the origin of many Brahmin castes can be seen Brahmanotpatti-Martanda, a compilation based on many sources.

                          Many books associate the formation of a specific caste with a king, a sage, a divine being or a miraculus event.

                          However with what we know, we have to conclude that in almost all cases, the castes have evolved through a natural process. In some cases, a section of a caste broke off as a result of a dispute which resulted in a new caste. Even in such cases, I suspect events must have been evolutionary.

                          A caste as an endogamous groups (often called bradari, samaj etc) should not be confused with varna, a hypothetical division of all communities into four varnas. In my view the varna system is no longer applicable today, it has not been applicable for quite a long time.

                          It is hard to see how Brahmins could have been a main influence behind emergence of the castes. However they have, being professional scholars, written a few of the books. Since they serve a priests for other communities, sometimes in some communities, the name of a gotra is based on a rishi, from whom the priestly clan derives the descent. (Brahmins regard themselves, biological or spiritual/academic descendants of the rishis).

                          Gotras too must have evolved. In quite a few communities, the gotras are based on the villages they originally lived in. In some other cases, the gotras are based on the professions or the government titles (such as Mehta etc.). This is true for a number of communities.

                          In some cases, names of a few gotras can be found in 11-12th century inscriptions.

                          Yashwant

                          --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, Ajay Singh <asingh71@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Yshwant.. Read about Greek Caste systems from where Brahmins have stolen the
                          > idea and implemented on simple and poor people of India. Greeks were first
                          > to follow the caste system and worked very well for the elites just like in
                          > Indian today all the system whether Women liberalisation etc. is just
                          > blindly copied and aped from America without thinking.
                          >
                          > 2011/5/19 YMalaiya <ymalaiya@...>
                          >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > I have read the article by Surajbhan Bhardvaj.
                          > >
                          > > It has some useful information for those interested in history. However it
                          > > comes to an incorrect conclusion and has some incorect information.
                          > >
                          > > I have been interested in the Indian caste system since 1972, when I wrote
                          > > my first article on the subject. I have looked at the literature on numerous
                          > > communities.
                          > >
                          > > I have sometimes seen the claim that in a specific caste (endogamous
                          > > group), there are no gotras (exogamous groups). However late I found out
                          > > that that caste does have gotras, it is just that the information is not
                          > > readily available.
                          > >
                          > > The practice of exogamy is found even outside of India, for example in
                          > > China where the surnames are used as the exogamous units. Exogamy has both
                          > > biological and social reasons. Marrying within a small goup not only has
                          > > genetic disadvantages, it causes small groups to socially interact only
                          > > within a small group.
                          > >
                          > > It should be noted that in many communities the exogamous units are not
                          > > called gotras. In some cases, the real exogamous units that are avoided for
                          > > marriage are called something else and the term "gotra" is used for
                          > > something else.
                          > >
                          > > Bhardvaj's comment on "Hindu Punjabis" is not correct. I presume that he is
                          > > thinking about the Khatris. They also use clan names as gotras. Sometimes
                          > > they use a separate term as a gotra.( some Khatris are Brahmin origin.).
                          > > His comment about the Bhardvaj brahmins is not applicable to other Brahmins.
                          > >
                          > > In south India, marriage with the daughter of mama is generally permitted,
                          > > however note that even in that case the boy and the girl belong to different
                          > > gotras.
                          > >
                          > > Among Muslims, it is common for a couple in the same family to marry. The
                          > > reason is that the conduct of prophet Muhammad is considered to be ideal. He
                          > > had married Abu Bakr's daughter Ayesha. Abu Bakr has initially objected
                          > > saying that "but I am your brother".
                          > > Abu Bakr and the prophet Muhammed were related through the seventh
                          > > generation of forefathers.
                          > >
                          > > Some of the Mughal princesses in India were married within the Mughal
                          > > family itself. However the Muslims Rajputs generally avoid marring within
                          > > their own clan.
                          > >
                          > > Yashwant
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Dear dr ranbir bhai sahib ,
                          > >
                          > > please help me to find a reply to this question with far reaching future
                          > > implications.hope the WOMEN STUDY CENTER MDU,a body apparently working for
                          > > the women cause,funded by taxpayer money can give some reply.Of course it
                          > > should be based on a professional study /research & not on some lofty
                          > > ideas/ gut feeling or malafide intent/ some hidden agenda.I am also waiting
                          > > for a debate on the issue of KHAP PANCHAYATS on three basic issues ie;-
                          > > a)khap panchayats have no history -as per you.
                          > > b)the khap panchayats are not SARVAJATIYA -as per
                          > > jagmati on record.
                          > > c)the decisions of the khap panchayats are always
                          > > against the poor &helpless l & in favour of the powerful-as
                          > > per jagmati on record.
                          > > If you really believe in the ways of sawami Dayanand then you must organise
                          > > a debate as early as possible .you should also bear in mind that i have my
                          > > own rights as per constitution& this tirade/smear campaign is impinging on
                          > > them&being an astute,learned,widely experienced know well how to guard them
                          > > against,ill informed imposters&frauds.i hope the message is straight
                          > > &clear.The ball is in your court bhai sahib .
                          > > REGARDS&BEST WISHES
                          > > COL MS DAHIYA,SHAURYA CHAKRA
                          > >
                          > > --- On *Mon, 16/5/11, Kad Kaddy <rising_kaddy98@>* wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > From: Kad Kaddy <rising_kaddy98@>
                          > > Subject: Re: Khap Panchayats has no history
                          > > To: "Col.M.S Dahiya" <col_msdahiya@>
                          > > Date: Monday, 16 May, 2011, 10:30 AM
                          > >
                          > > I am pasting here another article by a Chandigarh based Hindi
                          > > Journalist - Jagmohan Phutela.
                          > >
                          > > *तो सिरॠफ जाट ही बदनाम कॠयों हैं?
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > *मैंने बॠजॠरॠगों को बचपन ही से शादी बॠयाह के वकॠत गोतॠर, उसमें भी उपजाति,
                          > > परिवार के मूल सॠथान à¤"र रीति रिवाज से लेकर वधॠकी चूड़ियों के रंग तक का अता
                          > > पता करते देखा है. ये तय करने के लिठकि शादी मिलते जॠलते खानदान के साथ तो हो
                          > > लेकिन गलती से भी अपनी ही उपजाति के लड़के या लड़की से न हो जाठ. खासकर पंजाबियों
                          > > में ये मान कर चला गया है कि खॠराना, ककॠकड़, मकॠकड़, सलूजा, सॠखीजा, कपूर या
                          > > चावला लड़का à¤"र लड़की कभी कोई पॠरानी जान पहचान न हो तो भी आपस में भाई-बहन होते
                          > > हैं.
                          > >
                          > > पॠराने ज़माने में संपरॠक à¤"र सॠविधाà¤"ं से वंचित समाज में मामा या मौसी के बेटे
                          > > बेटी के साथ तो शादी जायज़ थी. किसी हद तक आज भी है. लेकिन चाचा या अपनी उपजाति
                          > > के किसी, कहीं के भी लड़के लड़की की शादी पे पाबंदी थी. आज भी है. ठक फरॠक के साथ
                          > > ये पाबंदी मॠसॠलिम समाज में भी थी. आज भी है. मॠसलमानों में दूध के रिशॠते की
                          > > शादी नाजायज़ है. यानी चाचा के लड़के या लड़की से तो शादी हो सकती है. लेकिन मामा
                          > > या मौसी के बचॠचे से शादी कतई नहीं हो सकती. इसॠलाम में ठसी शादियों को शरीअत
                          > > के खिलाफ माना गया है. इस तरह की पाबंदियां आप समाज के हर तबके में पायेंगे.
                          > > मैं भारत की बात कर रहा हूठ. जहां जाट भी रहते हैं. शादी के मामले में कॠछ
                          > > पाबंदियों की परंपरा अपने पूरॠवजों से उनॠहें भी मिली है शिषॠटाचार के तमाम
                          > > संसॠकारों के साथ. à¤"र वे लागू भी रही हैं अब से महज़ कॠछ महीने पहले तक. सॠवभाव
                          > > से दबंग होने के बावजूद जाट कभी उगॠर नहीं हॠठ. इसलिठकि इसकी नौबत ही नहीं आई.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > अब आई है तो वे आपे से बाहर हॠठहैं, हिंसक भी. à¤"र आप गौर करें इस हिंसा के
                          > > पीछे भी परिवार की भूमिका कॠछ कम, खाप की जॠयादा है. खाप भीड़ होती है. पर
                          > > लोकतंतॠर में भीड़ की भी ठक भाषा होती है. अहमियत भी. हिंसा गलत है. कोई भी
                          > > दलील किसी हतॠया को जायज़ नहीं ठहरा सकती. कानून अपना काम करेगा. उसने किया.
                          > > यहाठटकराव दिखा. जो खापों को परंपरा में मिले वो संसॠकार कानून की किताब में
                          > > दरॠज नहीं थे. मनोज, बबली की गयी जान à¤"र कोई आधा दरॠजन लोगों को फांसी के ठलान
                          > > के बाद ही सही समाज के संसॠकारों à¤"र संविधान का सही मेल हो पाठतो ये बड़े
                          > > पॠणॠय का काम होगा. मैं मीडिया में अपने मितॠरों से उमॠमीद करूठगा कि वे खापों
                          > > को तालिबान बताने की बजाय ठक बार अपने भी गिरेबान में ठाठक कर देखें. जब खॠद
                          > > उनके परिवारों में फरॠसॠट कजिन के साथ शादी नहीं हो सकती तो फिर इसका विरोध
                          > > करने के लिठजाट ही बदनाम कॠयों हैं? कॠछ चिंतन मनन अपने अंतःकरण में जाटों à¤"र
                          > > उनकी खापों को भी करना पड़ेगा. पंजाबियों à¤"र मॠसलमानों ने तो शादी के लिठददिहाल
                          > > à¤"र ननिहाल में से ठक रासॠता बंद किया है. खापों पे इलज़ाम है कि उनने इन दो के
                          > > अलावा तीसरे à¤"र चौथे रासॠते पे भी नाका सा लगा रखा है.
                          > >
                          > > ये ज़रूरी है देश की संसद खापों की हिनॠदू मैरिज ठकॠट में संशोधन की मांग पर
                          > > विचार करे. शादी के लिठछतॠतीसगढ़ à¤"र ठारखणॠड से कॠछ नज़दीक रासॠते जाटों की नई
                          > > पीढी को भी दिखने चाहिठ. वरॠना बेमेल शादियाठहोंगी. फतवे, खतरे होंगे. अदालतों
                          > > में फ़रियाद होगी तो सॠरकॠषा मॠहयॠया कराने के आदेश भी दिठही जायेंगे. खापों à¤"र
                          > > पॠलिस के बीच टकराव हमेशा रहेगा. इससे मॠशॠकिलें बढेंगी. मतभेद मनभेद में बदले
                          > > तो सरकार के लिठभी गोली डंडा चलाना दॠशॠवार हो जाठगा. हम सब असॠथायी असहमति के
                          > > सॠथायी अशांति में बदलने का इंतज़ार कॠयों करें? ....मान के चलिठकि चौटाला à¤"र
                          > > नवीन जिनॠदलों के बाद "भाई-बहनों" की शादियों के खिलाफ तो जाटों के साथ कल
                          > > दूसरी बिरादरियां भी होंगी.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Link:- http://vichar.bhadas4media.com/socie...an-futela.html<http://vichar.bhadas4media.com/society/302-jagmohan-futela.html>
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- On *Mon, 16/5/11, Col.M.S Dahiya <col_msdahiya@>* wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > From: Col.M.S Dahiya <col_msdahiya@>
                          > > Subject: Re: Khap Panchayats has no history
                          > > To: "ranbir dahiya" <beerdahiya@>
                          > > Cc: "diwan singh" <diwans2007@>, "samar kadian" <rising_kaddy98@>,
                          > > "rohnit phore" <rohnit@>, "Prof. Jagdish Kumar Gehlawat" <gehlawat@>,
                          > > "jagmati sangwan" <jagmatisangwan@>, "shamsher sandhu" <san553@>,
                          > > "bharti" <bharti71@>, "balraj malik" <adv_balrajsmalik@>,
                          > > "jathistory yahoo" <jathistory@yahoogroups.com>
                          > > Date: Monday, 16 May, 2011, 8:26 AM
                          > >
                          > > Dear Dr Rabir ji,
                          > > Iam glad that i sent copy ofmy earlier mail to you ,infact i am regreting
                          > > why did not i take you on board from the very beginning.Rather than pained i
                          > > am happy that you responded which i knew you would(by now i thoroughly know
                          > > what lies where).It is below my dignity&intellectual acueman to target any
                          > > one &least of all the undividual you are naming ,mainly because she is a
                          > > lady &her surname revealsas to who she is.T your claim whether KHAP
                          > > PANCHAYATS have a history or not i will only say, (since you have a literary
                          > > bent of mind).
                          > > HAMARE BEECH BASTA HAI WOH,HAR JEHAN MEN JHALAK JISKI.
                          > > HAR RUH MEN SAMAYA HAI,JIS MEN RAMAK USKI.
                          > > NA KAYAL MOHAR KA,NA KISI KE REHMO KARAM PAR JINDA HAI WOH,
                          > > SANS KI TARAH BERANG WA ROOP,NA KOI SEEMA USKI
                          > > COLONEL
                          > > MEHAR SINGH "MEHAR"
                          > > I sincerely request you to clear the clouds once for all .Please ask the
                          > > lady to show you all the mails, i have sent her .In fact what you are saying
                          > > on a healthy debate i had already made her a similar offer .Please
                          > > facilitate it in an appropriate forum,may be at the WOMEN STUDY CENTER OR
                          > > HARYANA STUDY CENTER MDU .I will be obliged .Do pardon me, if you have found
                          > > any thing against or hurting any body's sensibilities, in my addressing the
                          > > issue,which has been with absolutely pure intentions&no malice towards any
                          > > one.I sincerely expect an early response.
                          > > Regards&best wishes
                          > > col ms dahiya,sc
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- On *Sun, 15/5/11, ranbir dahiya <beerdahiya@>* wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > From: ranbir dahiya <beerdahiya@>
                          > > Subject: Khap Panchayats has no history
                          > > To: col_msdahiya@
                          > > Date: Sunday, 15 May, 2011, 9:10 PM
                          > >
                          > > http://dahiyars.wordpress.com/2011/05/15/67/
                          > > KHAP PANCHAYATS HAVE NO HISTORY
                          > > ARTICLE BY Dr SURAJBHAN BHARDWAJ
                          > > Dear Col MS Dahiya
                          > > I am pained to know that you are personalising the debates and compaigning
                          > > against individuals.( Jagmati sangwan) Debate method was evolved by Swami
                          > > Dayanand also. Better we debate democratically and let the people decide
                          > > what is right and what is wrong . Hope qwe will develop a level of
                          > > communication regarding those things where we donot agree or are extreeme
                          > > critical of each other. I am sending this article with a hope that you will
                          > > respond rationaly as i have been doing at every occasion
                          > >
                          > > --
                          > > Thanks and Regards,
                          > >
                          > > Dr. R.S. Dahiya,
                          > > Sr Prof. Surgery
                          > > Mob: +91 9812139001
                          > > Email: beerdahiya@<http://in.mc954.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=beerdahiya@...>
                          > > Visit my blogsite: http://secularharyana.com
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >


                        • urmila
                          Dear All, I disagree when someone says Jat women have been treated well by Jat men through ages. Just to name some traditional practices against women: forced
                          Message 12 of 15 , Apr 21 3:39 AM
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                            Dear All,

                            I disagree when someone says Jat women have been treated well by Jat men through ages. Just to name some traditional practices against women: forced polyandry, no inheritance rights for women, no say in social judicial matters by women. Need I say more ?

                            Regards,

                            Urmila.

                            --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "ravichaudhary2000" <ravichaudhary2000@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I read the same message.
                            >
                            > My understanding was that Ajay was more concerned about " aping the west, and blindly copying what they do without thinking,"
                            >
                            > That comment applies to many issues, and not just the one he chose to take as an example. One need not single out the west either,as the demon, as when a society is in transition, the attendant changes, and stresses on the existing fabric will generate their own consequences and results. That will happen in any society.
                            >
                            >
                            > Society will adapt and create new structures.
                            >
                            > e.g in any society today, and I have noticed this is conservative societies too( such as Iran 30 years ago) and in Indian and Canadian societies too, girls do better than boys in their studies.This applies to Jat villages too.
                            >
                            > That lead to many higher level courses being filled by girls.
                            >
                            > For current/future family relationships( mating and allied structures on anthropoligical terms), this means the girls could well be earning more than the males.
                            >
                            > In such cases will we see the end of the patriarchal society?
                            >
                            >
                            > I will agree about the "blind aping" part. That applies to all inputs though, whether eastern or Western.
                            >
                            >
                            > On a historical note though, the Jat society ethic, has been positive for their womenkind, and for the role of women in their society- this includes re marriage, widow remarriage etc.
                            >
                            > These are gGood ancient traditions going back to Rig Vedic times.Interestingly the Jats are one of the few Indian communities who follow this custom unbroken since those times.
                            >
                            > That continuity, has implications for the continuity clan names, and it is no accident then that over 60 jat clans names are found in the Rig Veda, as the noted historian B S Dahiya pointed out.
                            >
                            > The rest of Indian society is becoming more accepting of these practices, and that can be attributed to women's liberalization too, without having to be accused of 'aping the west'.
                            >
                            > Ravi Chaudhary
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "urmila" <uduhan@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, Ajay Singh <asingh71@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Indian today all the system whether Women liberalisation etc. is just
                            > > > blindly copied and aped from America without thinking.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > The message seems to resent women's liberalisation in India.
                            > >
                            > > Urmila.
                            > >
                            >
                          • urmila
                            You raised quite a valid point here Mahavir i.e., that texts written by the dominant section of society about the so called creation of castes that they report
                            Message 13 of 15 , Apr 22 2:57 AM
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                              You raised quite a valid point here Mahavir i.e., that texts written by the dominant section of society about the so called creation of castes that they report happened many hundreds of years ago, are taken as a historical facts! Well, how do these writers know that's what happened and that's how it all happened? Such kids stuff! Now please don't further make a fool of yourself by saying that we the writers have a direct connection to God to know these things!!

                              Regards,

                              Urmila.

                              --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "msanglikar" <jainway@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I have seen that in almost all the articles on castes, there is no scientific research, they do not know about the 'Stock' and 'Race' etc and they are dependent of some pothis written by Brahmins which connect the castes to Vedic Origin.
                              >
                              > -Mahavir
                              >
                              > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "ymalaiya" <ymalaiya@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > How did the castes (endogamous groups) and the gotras (exogamous groups) originate in India?
                              > >
                              > > What role, if any, did the Brahmins play?
                              > >
                              > > The literature on individual castes can be hard to find (Wikipedia has changed that to some extent).
                              > >
                              > > There has been a significant interest in attempting to identify the "origin" of specific castes. There were a number of books written during 17-19th century about specific castes. It should be noted that at that time, archaeological inscriptions were not available. Some of the accounts about the origin of many Brahmin castes can be seen Brahmanotpatti-Martanda, a compilation based on many sources.
                              > >
                              > > Many books associate the formation of a specific caste with a king, a sage, a divine being or a miraculus event.
                              > >
                              > > However with what we know, we have to conclude that in almost all cases, the castes have evolved through a natural process. In some cases, a section of a caste broke off as a result of a dispute which resulted in a new caste. Even in such cases, I suspect events must have been evolutionary.
                              > >
                              > > A caste as an endogamous groups (often called bradari, samaj etc) should not be confused with varna, a hypothetical division of all communities into four varnas. In my view the varna system is no longer applicable today, it has not been applicable for quite a long time.
                              > >
                              > > It is hard to see how Brahmins could have been a main influence behind emergence of the castes. However they have, being professional scholars, written a few of the books. Since they serve a priests for other communities, sometimes in some communities, the name of a gotra is based on a rishi, from whom the priestly clan derives the descent. (Brahmins regard themselves, biological or spiritual/academic descendants of the rishis).
                              > >
                              > > Gotras too must have evolved. In quite a few communities, the gotras are based on the villages they originally lived in. In some other cases, the gotras are based on the professions or the government titles (such as Mehta etc.). This is true for a number of communities.
                              > >
                              > > In some cases, names of a few gotras can be found in 11-12th century inscriptions.
                              > >
                              > > Yashwant
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, Ajay Singh <asingh71@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Yshwant.. Read about Greek Caste systems from where Brahmins have stolen the
                              > > > idea and implemented on simple and poor people of India. Greeks were first
                              > > > to follow the caste system and worked very well for the elites just like in
                              > > > Indian today all the system whether Women liberalisation etc. is just
                              > > > blindly copied and aped from America without thinking.
                              > > >
                              > > > 2011/5/19 YMalaiya <ymalaiya@>
                              > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I have read the article by Surajbhan Bhardvaj.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > It has some useful information for those interested in history. However it
                              > > > > comes to an incorrect conclusion and has some incorect information.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I have been interested in the Indian caste system since 1972, when I wrote
                              > > > > my first article on the subject. I have looked at the literature on numerous
                              > > > > communities.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I have sometimes seen the claim that in a specific caste (endogamous
                              > > > > group), there are no gotras (exogamous groups). However late I found out
                              > > > > that that caste does have gotras, it is just that the information is not
                              > > > > readily available.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > The practice of exogamy is found even outside of India, for example in
                              > > > > China where the surnames are used as the exogamous units. Exogamy has both
                              > > > > biological and social reasons. Marrying within a small goup not only has
                              > > > > genetic disadvantages, it causes small groups to socially interact only
                              > > > > within a small group.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > It should be noted that in many communities the exogamous units are not
                              > > > > called gotras. In some cases, the real exogamous units that are avoided for
                              > > > > marriage are called something else and the term "gotra" is used for
                              > > > > something else.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Bhardvaj's comment on "Hindu Punjabis" is not correct. I presume that he is
                              > > > > thinking about the Khatris. They also use clan names as gotras. Sometimes
                              > > > > they use a separate term as a gotra.( some Khatris are Brahmin origin.).
                              > > > > His comment about the Bhardvaj brahmins is not applicable to other Brahmins.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > In south India, marriage with the daughter of mama is generally permitted,
                              > > > > however note that even in that case the boy and the girl belong to different
                              > > > > gotras.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Among Muslims, it is common for a couple in the same family to marry. The
                              > > > > reason is that the conduct of prophet Muhammad is considered to be ideal. He
                              > > > > had married Abu Bakr's daughter Ayesha. Abu Bakr has initially objected
                              > > > > saying that "but I am your brother".
                              > > > > Abu Bakr and the prophet Muhammed were related through the seventh
                              > > > > generation of forefathers.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Some of the Mughal princesses in India were married within the Mughal
                              > > > > family itself. However the Muslims Rajputs generally avoid marring within
                              > > > > their own clan.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Yashwant
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Dear dr ranbir bhai sahib ,
                              > > > >
                              > > > > please help me to find a reply to this question with far reaching future
                              > > > > implications.hope the WOMEN STUDY CENTER MDU,a body apparently working for
                              > > > > the women cause,funded by taxpayer money can give some reply.Of course it
                              > > > > should be based on a professional study /research & not on some lofty
                              > > > > ideas/ gut feeling or malafide intent/ some hidden agenda.I am also waiting
                              > > > > for a debate on the issue of KHAP PANCHAYATS on three basic issues ie;-
                              > > > > a)khap panchayats have no history -as per you.
                              > > > > b)the khap panchayats are not SARVAJATIYA -as per
                              > > > > jagmati on record.
                              > > > > c)the decisions of the khap panchayats are always
                              > > > > against the poor &helpless l & in favour of the powerful-as
                              > > > > per jagmati on record.
                              > > > > If you really believe in the ways of sawami Dayanand then you must organise
                              > > > > a debate as early as possible .you should also bear in mind that i have my
                              > > > > own rights as per constitution& this tirade/smear campaign is impinging on
                              > > > > them&being an astute,learned,widely experienced know well how to guard them
                              > > > > against,ill informed imposters&frauds.i hope the message is straight
                              > > > > &clear.The ball is in your court bhai sahib .
                              > > > > REGARDS&BEST WISHES
                              > > > > COL MS DAHIYA,SHAURYA CHAKRA
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- On *Mon, 16/5/11, Kad Kaddy <rising_kaddy98@>* wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > From: Kad Kaddy <rising_kaddy98@>
                              > > > > Subject: Re: Khap Panchayats has no history
                              > > > > To: "Col.M.S Dahiya" <col_msdahiya@>
                              > > > > Date: Monday, 16 May, 2011, 10:30 AM
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I am pasting here another article by a Chandigarh based Hindi
                              > > > > Journalist - Jagmohan Phutela.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > *तो सिर्फ जाट ही बदनाम क्यों हैं?
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > *मैंने बुजुर्गों को बचपन ही से शादी ब्याह के वक्त गोत्र, उसमें भी उपजाति,
                              > > > > परिवार के मूल स्थान �"र रीति रिवाज से लेकर वधु की चूड़ियों के रंग तक का अता
                              > > > > पता करते देखा है. ये तय करने के लिए कि शादी मिलते जुलते खानदान के साथ तो हो
                              > > > > लेकिन गलती से भी अपनी ही उपजाति के लड़के या लड़की से न हो जाए. खासकर पंजाबियों
                              > > > > में ये मान कर चला गया है कि खुराना, कक्कड़, मक्कड़, सलूजा, सुखीजा, कपूर या
                              > > > > चावला लड़का �"र लड़की कभी कोई पुरानी जान पहचान न हो तो भी आपस में भाई-बहन होते
                              > > > > हैं.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > पुराने ज़माने में संपर्क �"र सुविधा�"ं से वंचित समाज में मामा या मौसी के बेटे
                              > > > > बेटी के साथ तो शादी जायज़ थी. किसी हद तक आज भी है. लेकिन चाचा या अपनी उपजाति
                              > > > > के किसी, कहीं के भी लड़के लड़की की शादी पे पाबंदी थी. आज भी है. एक फर्क के साथ
                              > > > > ये पाबंदी मुस्लिम समाज में भी थी. आज भी है. मुसलमानों में दूध के रिश्ते की
                              > > > > शादी नाजायज़ है. यानी चाचा के लड़के या लड़की से तो शादी हो सकती है. लेकिन मामा
                              > > > > या मौसी के बच्चे से शादी कतई नहीं हो सकती. इस्लाम में ऐसी शादियों को शरीअत
                              > > > > के खिलाफ माना गया है. इस तरह की पाबंदियां आप समाज के हर तबके में पायेंगे.
                              > > > > मैं भारत की बात कर रहा हूँ. जहां जाट भी रहते हैं. शादी के मामले में कुछ
                              > > > > पाबंदियों की परंपरा अपने पूर्वजों से उन्हें भी मिली है शिष्टाचार के तमाम
                              > > > > संस्कारों के साथ. �"र वे लागू भी रही हैं अब से महज़ कुछ महीने पहले तक. स्वभाव
                              > > > > से दबंग होने के बावजूद जाट कभी उग्र नहीं हुए. इसलिए कि इसकी नौबत ही नहीं आई.
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > अब आई है तो वे आपे से बाहर हुए हैं, हिंसक भी. �"र आप गौर करें इस हिंसा के
                              > > > > पीछे भी परिवार की भूमिका कुछ कम, खाप की ज्यादा है. खाप भीड़ होती है. पर
                              > > > > लोकतंत्र में भीड़ की भी एक भाषा होती है. अहमियत भी. हिंसा गलत है. कोई भी
                              > > > > दलील किसी हत्या को जायज़ नहीं ठहरा सकती. कानून अपना काम करेगा. उसने किया.
                              > > > > यहाँ टकराव दिखा. जो खापों को परंपरा में मिले वो संस्कार कानून की किताब में
                              > > > > दर्ज नहीं थे. मनोज, बबली की गयी जान �"र कोई आधा दर्जन लोगों को फांसी के ऐलान
                              > > > > के बाद ही सही समाज के संस्कारों �"र संविधान का सही मेल हो पाए तो ये बड़े
                              > > > > पुण्य का काम होगा. मैं मीडिया में अपने मित्रों से उम्मीद करूँगा कि वे खापों
                              > > > > को तालिबान बताने की बजाय एक बार अपने भी गिरेबान में झाँक कर देखें. जब खुद
                              > > > > उनके परिवारों में फर्स्ट कजिन के साथ शादी नहीं हो सकती तो फिर इसका विरोध
                              > > > > करने के लिए जाट ही बदनाम क्यों हैं? कुछ चिंतन मनन अपने अंतःकरण में जाटों �"र
                              > > > > उनकी खापों को भी करना पड़ेगा. पंजाबियों �"र मुसलमानों ने तो शादी के लिए ददिहाल
                              > > > > �"र ननिहाल में से एक रास्ता बंद किया है. खापों पे इलज़ाम है कि उनने इन दो के
                              > > > > अलावा तीसरे �"र चौथे रास्ते पे भी नाका सा लगा रखा है.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > ये ज़रूरी है देश की संसद खापों की हिन्दू मैरिज एक्ट में संशोधन की मांग पर
                              > > > > विचार करे. शादी के लिए छत्तीसगढ़ �"र झारखण्ड से कुछ नज़दीक रास्ते जाटों की नई
                              > > > > पीढी को भी दिखने चाहिए. वर्ना बेमेल शादियाँ होंगी. फतवे, खतरे होंगे. अदालतों
                              > > > > में फ़रियाद होगी तो सुरक्षा मुहय्या कराने के आदेश भी दिए ही जायेंगे. खापों �"र
                              > > > > पुलिस के बीच टकराव हमेशा रहेगा. इससे मुश्किलें बढेंगी. मतभेद मनभेद में बदले
                              > > > > तो सरकार के लिए भी गोली डंडा चलाना दुश्वार हो जाएगा. हम सब अस्थायी असहमति के
                              > > > > स्थायी अशांति में बदलने का इंतज़ार क्यों करें? ....मान के चलिए कि चौटाला �"र
                              > > > > नवीन जिन्दलों के बाद "भाई-बहनों" की शादियों के खिलाफ तो जाटों के साथ कल
                              > > > > दूसरी बिरादरियां भी होंगी.
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Link:- http://vichar.bhadas4media.com/socie...an-futela.html<http://vichar.bhadas4media.com/society/302-jagmohan-futela.html>
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- On *Mon, 16/5/11, Col.M.S Dahiya <col_msdahiya@>* wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > From: Col.M.S Dahiya <col_msdahiya@>
                              > > > > Subject: Re: Khap Panchayats has no history
                              > > > > To: "ranbir dahiya" <beerdahiya@>
                              > > > > Cc: "diwan singh" <diwans2007@>, "samar kadian" <rising_kaddy98@>,
                              > > > > "rohnit phore" <rohnit@>, "Prof. Jagdish Kumar Gehlawat" <gehlawat@>,
                              > > > > "jagmati sangwan" <jagmatisangwan@>, "shamsher sandhu" <san553@>,
                              > > > > "bharti" <bharti71@>, "balraj malik" <adv_balrajsmalik@>,
                              > > > > "jathistory yahoo" <jathistory@yahoogroups.com>
                              > > > > Date: Monday, 16 May, 2011, 8:26 AM
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Dear Dr Rabir ji,
                              > > > > Iam glad that i sent copy ofmy earlier mail to you ,infact i am regreting
                              > > > > why did not i take you on board from the very beginning.Rather than pained i
                              > > > > am happy that you responded which i knew you would(by now i thoroughly know
                              > > > > what lies where).It is below my dignity&intellectual acueman to target any
                              > > > > one &least of all the undividual you are naming ,mainly because she is a
                              > > > > lady &her surname revealsas to who she is.T your claim whether KHAP
                              > > > > PANCHAYATS have a history or not i will only say, (since you have a literary
                              > > > > bent of mind).
                              > > > > HAMARE BEECH BASTA HAI WOH,HAR JEHAN MEN JHALAK JISKI.
                              > > > > HAR RUH MEN SAMAYA HAI,JIS MEN RAMAK USKI.
                              > > > > NA KAYAL MOHAR KA,NA KISI KE REHMO KARAM PAR JINDA HAI WOH,
                              > > > > SANS KI TARAH BERANG WA ROOP,NA KOI SEEMA USKI
                              > > > > COLONEL
                              > > > > MEHAR SINGH "MEHAR"
                              > > > > I sincerely request you to clear the clouds once for all .Please ask the
                              > > > > lady to show you all the mails, i have sent her .In fact what you are saying
                              > > > > on a healthy debate i had already made her a similar offer .Please
                              > > > > facilitate it in an appropriate forum,may be at the WOMEN STUDY CENTER OR
                              > > > > HARYANA STUDY CENTER MDU .I will be obliged .Do pardon me, if you have found
                              > > > > any thing against or hurting any body's sensibilities, in my addressing the
                              > > > > issue,which has been with absolutely pure intentions&no malice towards any
                              > > > > one.I sincerely expect an early response.
                              > > > > Regards&best wishes
                              > > > > col ms dahiya,sc
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- On *Sun, 15/5/11, ranbir dahiya <beerdahiya@>* wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > From: ranbir dahiya <beerdahiya@>
                              > > > > Subject: Khap Panchayats has no history
                              > > > > To: col_msdahiya@
                              > > > > Date: Sunday, 15 May, 2011, 9:10 PM
                              > > > >
                              > > > > http://dahiyars.wordpress.com/2011/05/15/67/
                              > > > > KHAP PANCHAYATS HAVE NO HISTORY
                              > > > > ARTICLE BY Dr SURAJBHAN BHARDWAJ
                              > > > > Dear Col MS Dahiya
                              > > > > I am pained to know that you are personalising the debates and compaigning
                              > > > > against individuals.( Jagmati sangwan) Debate method was evolved by Swami
                              > > > > Dayanand also. Better we debate democratically and let the people decide
                              > > > > what is right and what is wrong . Hope qwe will develop a level of
                              > > > > communication regarding those things where we donot agree or are extreeme
                              > > > > critical of each other. I am sending this article with a hope that you will
                              > > > > respond rationaly as i have been doing at every occasion
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --
                              > > > > Thanks and Regards,
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Dr. R.S. Dahiya,
                              > > > > Sr Prof. Surgery
                              > > > > Mob: +91 9812139001
                              > > > > Email: beerdahiya@<http://in.mc954.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=beerdahiya@>
                              > > > > Visit my blogsite: http://secularharyana.com
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • ravichaudhary2000
                              We should compare the societies of the times, not apples with pears.
                              Message 14 of 15 , Apr 23 12:42 PM
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                                We should compare the societies of the times, not apples with pears.




                                --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "urmila" <uduhan@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Dear All,
                                >
                                > I disagree when someone says Jat women have been treated well by Jat men through ages. Just to name some traditional practices against women: forced polyandry, no inheritance rights for women, no say in social judicial matters by women. Need I say more ?
                                >
                                > Regards,
                                >
                                > Urmila.
                                >
                                > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "ravichaudhary2000" <ravichaudhary2000@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > I read the same message.
                                > >
                                > > My understanding was that Ajay was more concerned about " aping the west, and blindly copying what they do without thinking,"
                                > >
                                > > That comment applies to many issues, and not just the one he chose to take as an example. One need not single out the west either,as the demon, as when a society is in transition, the attendant changes, and stresses on the existing fabric will generate their own consequences and results. That will happen in any society.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Society will adapt and create new structures.
                                > >
                                > > e.g in any society today, and I have noticed this is conservative societies too( such as Iran 30 years ago) and in Indian and Canadian societies too, girls do better than boys in their studies.This applies to Jat villages too.
                                > >
                                > > That lead to many higher level courses being filled by girls.
                                > >
                                > > For current/future family relationships( mating and allied structures on anthropoligical terms), this means the girls could well be earning more than the males.
                                > >
                                > > In such cases will we see the end of the patriarchal society?
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > I will agree about the "blind aping" part. That applies to all inputs though, whether eastern or Western.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > On a historical note though, the Jat society ethic, has been positive for their womenkind, and for the role of women in their society- this includes re marriage, widow remarriage etc.
                                > >
                                > > These are gGood ancient traditions going back to Rig Vedic times.Interestingly the Jats are one of the few Indian communities who follow this custom unbroken since those times.
                                > >
                                > > That continuity, has implications for the continuity clan names, and it is no accident then that over 60 jat clans names are found in the Rig Veda, as the noted historian B S Dahiya pointed out.
                                > >
                                > > The rest of Indian society is becoming more accepting of these practices, and that can be attributed to women's liberalization too, without having to be accused of 'aping the west'.
                                > >
                                > > Ravi Chaudhary
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "urmila" <uduhan@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, Ajay Singh <asingh71@> wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Indian today all the system whether Women liberalisation etc. is just
                                > > > > blindly copied and aped from America without thinking.
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > The message seems to resent women's liberalisation in India.
                                > > >
                                > > > Urmila.
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • urmila
                                If the peers were murdering that does not absolve Jats of murders! A wrong does not become right by hiding behind peers. But again, I donor expect Jats to be
                                Message 15 of 15 , Apr 23 8:31 PM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  If the peers were murdering that does not absolve Jats of murders! A wrong does not become right by hiding behind peers. But again, I donor expect Jats to be different from the rest of majority of society.

                                  Regards,

                                  Urmila.


                                  --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "ravichaudhary2000" <ravichaudhary2000@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > We should compare the societies of the times, not apples with pears.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "urmila" <uduhan@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Dear All,
                                  > >
                                  > > I disagree when someone says Jat women have been treated well by Jat men through ages. Just to name some traditional practices against women: forced polyandry, no inheritance rights for women, no say in social judicial matters by women. Need I say more ?
                                  > >
                                  > > Regards,
                                  > >
                                  > > Urmila.
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "ravichaudhary2000" <ravichaudhary2000@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I read the same message.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > My understanding was that Ajay was more concerned about " aping the west, and blindly copying what they do without thinking,"
                                  > > >
                                  > > > That comment applies to many issues, and not just the one he chose to take as an example. One need not single out the west either,as the demon, as when a society is in transition, the attendant changes, and stresses on the existing fabric will generate their own consequences and results. That will happen in any society.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Society will adapt and create new structures.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > e.g in any society today, and I have noticed this is conservative societies too( such as Iran 30 years ago) and in Indian and Canadian societies too, girls do better than boys in their studies.This applies to Jat villages too.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > That lead to many higher level courses being filled by girls.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > For current/future family relationships( mating and allied structures on anthropoligical terms), this means the girls could well be earning more than the males.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > In such cases will we see the end of the patriarchal society?
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I will agree about the "blind aping" part. That applies to all inputs though, whether eastern or Western.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > On a historical note though, the Jat society ethic, has been positive for their womenkind, and for the role of women in their society- this includes re marriage, widow remarriage etc.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > These are gGood ancient traditions going back to Rig Vedic times.Interestingly the Jats are one of the few Indian communities who follow this custom unbroken since those times.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > That continuity, has implications for the continuity clan names, and it is no accident then that over 60 jat clans names are found in the Rig Veda, as the noted historian B S Dahiya pointed out.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The rest of Indian society is becoming more accepting of these practices, and that can be attributed to women's liberalization too, without having to be accused of 'aping the west'.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Ravi Chaudhary
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "urmila" <uduhan@> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, Ajay Singh <asingh71@> wrote:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Indian today all the system whether Women liberalisation etc. is just
                                  > > > > > blindly copied and aped from America without thinking.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > The message seems to resent women's liberalisation in India.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Urmila.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
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