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RE: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction

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  • rajender123 rana
    Sir,many of us think same way,but the harsh realty is that he was not awarded any medal.His village is in jhajjar district and i happen to serve as secratry
    Message 1 of 19 , Dec 1, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      Sir,many of us think same way,but the harsh realty is that he was not awarded any medal.His village is in jhajjar district and i happen to serve as secratry zila sainik board of that district,and this is how i came to know about this . 

      To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
      From: msbajwa@...
      Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 19:31:57 +0530
      Subject: Re: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction

       
      I agree that he was from the Rathi Gotra but he was posthumously awarded the MVC.Of that I'm certain.
       
      Mandeep
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 11:38 AM
      Subject: RE: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction

       

      brig hoshiar singh was rathee gotra jat and was  not awarded any gallantry medal in 1662 war


      To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
      From: msbajwa@...
      Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 01:41:33 +0000
      Subject: Re: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction

       
      Brig Hoshiar Singh was posthomously awarded the MVC.

      Mandeep Bajwa

      Sent from my BlackBerry® on Reliance Mobile, India's No. 1 Network. Go for it!

      From: "Col.M.S Dahiya" <col_msdahiya@...>
      Sender: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 06:56:40 +0530 (IST)
      To: <JatHistory@yahoogroups.com>
      ReplyTo: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction

       
      Dear Ajay Singh,
      A good article,however i suggest a small correction.Brig Hoshiar singh was from village SANKHOL near BAHADUR GARH.Hoshiar singh that you are mixing with was a PVC awardee in 1971 war with pak.He was from vill SISANA & rightly as you said was of DAHIYA GOTRA .
      col ms dahia

      --- On Mon, 29/11/10, Ajay Singh <asingh71@...> wrote:

      From: Ajay Singh <asingh71@...>
      Subject: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
      To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Monday, 29 November, 2010, 9:44 PM

       
       
       
      Had India's intelligence establishment not been utterly inadequate, it could probably have got wind of a carefully calibrated military action of limited duration that the Chinese were planning to "teach India a lesson". Roderick Macfarquhar, the eminent Harvard Sinologist, in the third volume of his trilogy, The Origins of the Chinese Cultural Revolution, has fully documented all the meetings Mao Zedong presided over to minutely plan the entire operation. The legendary Marshal Liu Bochang was given overall military command, with veterans of the 1950-53 Korean War commanding the divisions that fought. Today the intelligence machine is greatly expanded and diversified. We also have had the National Security Council, the National Security Advisory Board and a network of think-tanks for some years. But sadly the system of collection and evaluation of intelligence and that of making policy on national security has improved only marginally. Moreover, Nehru was ill-served by his civilian and military advisers. None ever argued with him, leave alone expressing dissent from his view. "Panditji knows best" was the doctrine of the day.
      Lieutenant-General B. M. Kaul's appointment as the battlefield commander in NEFA was unfortunate. Though a first-rate military bureaucrat and a dynamic individual, he had no combat experience. Yet his clout with the defence minister and even the PM was so great that his superiors in the military thought it prudent not to cross his path. This resulted, on November 17, in the catastrophe of the commander of the once famous 4th Division, Major-General A. S. Pathania, panicking and demanding permission to withdraw immediately. Army Chief General P. N. Thapar(Karan Thapar Father), and GOC-in-C of Eastern Command Lieutenant-General S. P. Sen, were present at the corps HQ while Kaul was away, and could not be reached. They did nothing to restrain Pathania. When Brigadier Hoshiar Singh, sitting atop Sela Pass with enough men and equipment and determined to fight, tried to do so, he was threatened with court-martial. (A Haryanvi Jat with Dahiya Gotra)
      Finally, even today, there is insufficient awareness in this country about the impact on the India-China conflict of both the Sino-Soviet split and the Cuban missile crisis that, to an extent, coincided with the border war. In the first place, Mao's decision to "teach India a lesson" was addressed as much to Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev as it was to Nehru. According to Macfarquhar, the Chinese had foreknowledge of the secret deployment of Soviet missiles in Cuba "because of their excellent contacts in Havana." They did not know when exactly the crisis would burst into the open; but they were sure it would. They exploited the situation to their advantage. Khrushchev could not afford to take on both the US and China at the same time. So, to India's dismay, he did briefly tilt towards China -- but reverted to his old broadly pro-India policy after the Cuban showdown that began two days after the Chinese invasion of India was over.
      There is no point going over Khrushchev's extraordinary cordiality to the departing Chinese ambassador, Liu Xiao, the Pravda editorial of October 25 that talked of "our Chinese brothers and Indian friends" and so on. At the end the People's Daily said: "During the Cuban crisis, the Russians spoke a few seemingly fair words, but when the crisis was over they went back. They have sided with reactionary India against China all the time." No wonder Mao tauntingly accused Khrushchev of "cowardice in the Caribbean and perfidy in the Himalayas."
      (The writer is a Delhi-based political commentator)





    • ravichaudhary2000
      With all respect. If I could play devil s advocate, and this will create some controversy- I am missing something? Why should he have been awarded a medal? He
      Message 2 of 19 , Dec 1, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        With all respect.

        If I could play devil's advocate, and this will create some controversy-

        I am missing something?


        Why should he have been awarded a medal?

        He was a defeated commander, who abandoned a very strong position.

        Ravi Chaudhary

        --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, rajender123 rana <rajender123@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Sir,many of us think same way,but the harsh realty is that he was not awarded any medal.His village is in jhajjar district and i happen to serve as secratry zila sainik board of that district,and this is how i came to know about this .
        >
        >
        > To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
        > From: msbajwa@...
        > Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 19:31:57 +0530
        > Subject: Re: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > I agree that he was from the Rathi Gotra but he was posthumously awarded the MVC.Of that I'm certain.
        >
        > Mandeep
        >
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: rajender123 rana
        > To: jathistory@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 11:38 AM
        > Subject: RE: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
        >
        >
        >
        > brig hoshiar singh was rathee gotra jat and was not awarded any gallantry medal in 1662 war
        >
        >
        >
        > To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
        > From: msbajwa@...
        > Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 01:41:33 +0000
        > Subject: Re: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Brig Hoshiar Singh was posthomously awarded the MVC.
        >
        > Mandeep Bajwa
        >
        > Sent from my BlackBerry® on Reliance Mobile, India's No. 1 Network. Go for it!
        >
        >
        >
        > From: "Col.M.S Dahiya" <col_msdahiya@...>
        > Sender: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 06:56:40 +0530 (IST)
        > To: <JatHistory@yahoogroups.com>
        > ReplyTo: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Dear Ajay Singh,
        > A good article,however i suggest a small correction.Brig Hoshiar singh was from village SANKHOL near BAHADUR GARH.Hoshiar singh that you are mixing with was a PVC awardee in 1971 war with pak.He was from vill SISANA & rightly as you said was of DAHIYA GOTRA .
        > col ms dahia
        >
        > --- On Mon, 29/11/10, Ajay Singh <asingh71@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > From: Ajay Singh <asingh71@...>
        > Subject: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
        > To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Monday, 29 November, 2010, 9:44 PM
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > http://news.in.msn.com/national/article.aspx?cp-documentid=4638428
        >
        >
        > Had India's intelligence establishment not been utterly inadequate, it could probably have got wind of a carefully calibrated military action of limited duration that the Chinese were planning to "teach India a lesson". Roderick Macfarquhar, the eminent Harvard Sinologist, in the third volume of his trilogy, The Origins of the Chinese Cultural Revolution, has fully documented all the meetings Mao Zedong presided over to minutely plan the entire operation. The legendary Marshal Liu Bochang was given overall military command, with veterans of the 1950-53 Korean War commanding the divisions that fought. Today the intelligence machine is greatly expanded and diversified. We also have had the National Security Council, the National Security Advisory Board and a network of think-tanks for some years. But sadly the system of collection and evaluation of intelligence and that of making policy on national security has improved only marginally. Moreover, Nehru was ill-served by his civilian and military advisers. None ever argued with him, leave alone expressing dissent from his view. "Panditji knows best" was the doctrine of the day.
        > Lieutenant-General B. M. Kaul's appointment as the battlefield commander in NEFA was unfortunate. Though a first-rate military bureaucrat and a dynamic individual, he had no combat experience. Yet his clout with the defence minister and even the PM was so great that his superiors in the military thought it prudent not to cross his path. This resulted, on November 17, in the catastrophe of the commander of the once famous 4th Division, Major-General A. S. Pathania, panicking and demanding permission to withdraw immediately. Army Chief General P. N. Thapar(Karan Thapar Father), and GOC-in-C of Eastern Command Lieutenant-General S. P. Sen, were present at the corps HQ while Kaul was away, and could not be reached. They did nothing to restrain Pathania. When Brigadier Hoshiar Singh, sitting atop Sela Pass with enough men and equipment and determined to fight, tried to do so, he was threatened with court-martial. (A Haryanvi Jat with Dahiya Gotra)
        > Finally, even today, there is insufficient awareness in this country about the impact on the India-China conflict of both the Sino-Soviet split and the Cuban missile crisis that, to an extent, coincided with the border war. In the first place, Mao's decision to "teach India a lesson" was addressed as much to Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev as it was to Nehru. According to Macfarquhar, the Chinese had foreknowledge of the secret deployment of Soviet missiles in Cuba "because of their excellent contacts in Havana." They did not know when exactly the crisis would burst into the open; but they were sure it would. They exploited the situation to their advantage. Khrushchev could not afford to take on both the US and China at the same time. So, to India's dismay, he did briefly tilt towards China -- but reverted to his old broadly pro-India policy after the Cuban showdown that began two days after the Chinese invasion of India was over.
        > There is no point going over Khrushchev's extraordinary cordiality to the departing Chinese ambassador, Liu Xiao, the Pravda editorial of October 25 that talked of "our Chinese brothers and Indian friends" and so on. At the end the People's Daily said: "During the Cuban crisis, the Russians spoke a few seemingly fair words, but when the crisis was over they went back. They have sided with reactionary India against China all the time." No wonder Mao tauntingly accused Khrushchev of "cowardice in the Caribbean and perfidy in the Himalayas."
        > (The writer is a Delhi-based political commentator)
        >
      • Col.M.S Dahiya
        Ravi ji, I take a very strong exception to what you have said about the gallant act of Brig Hoshiar singh .i strongly recomend that you update your knowlwdge
        Message 3 of 19 , Dec 1, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          Ravi ji,
          I take a very strong exception to what you have said about the gallant act of Brig Hoshiar singh .i strongly recomend that you update your knowlwdge before commenting on such emotional/sensitive issues .Only a soldier knows how he fights two set of enemies in such situations ,one the enemy in his front & the others, his higher HQ who give at times very unreasonable orders.Brig Hoshiar was one of those enumerables field commanders who experience these first hand.The Brig went down, executing one of the most unreasonable one .It needs lots of punk to do this.I am saying this based on my personal first hand experience in SIACHIN GLACIER ,THE HIGHEST BATTLE FIELD IN THE WORLD.

          col ms dahiya,shaurya chakra
          --- On Wed, 1/12/10, ravichaudhary2000 <ravichaudhary2000@...> wrote:

          From: ravichaudhary2000 <ravichaudhary2000@...>
          Subject: [JatHistory] Re: CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
          To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wednesday, 1 December, 2010, 5:21 PM

           
          With all respect.

          If I could play devil's advocate, and this will create some controversy-

          I am missing something?

          Why should he have been awarded a medal?

          He was a defeated commander, who abandoned a very strong position.

          Ravi Chaudhary

          --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, rajender123 rana <rajender123@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Sir,many of us think same way,but the harsh realty is that he was not awarded any medal.His village is in jhajjar district and i happen to serve as secratry zila sainik board of that district,and this is how i came to know about this .
          >
          >
          > To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
          > From: msbajwa@...
          > Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 19:31:57 +0530
          > Subject: Re: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > I agree that he was from the Rathi Gotra but he was posthumously awarded the MVC.Of that I'm certain.
          >
          > Mandeep
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: rajender123 rana
          > To: jathistory@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 11:38 AM
          > Subject: RE: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
          >
          >
          >
          > brig hoshiar singh was rathee gotra jat and was not awarded any gallantry medal in 1662 war
          >
          >
          >
          > To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
          > From: msbajwa@...
          > Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 01:41:33 +0000
          > Subject: Re: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Brig Hoshiar Singh was posthomously awarded the MVC.
          >
          > Mandeep Bajwa
          >
          > Sent from my BlackBerry® on Reliance Mobile, India's No. 1 Network. Go for it!
          >
          >
          >
          > From: "Col.M.S Dahiya" <col_msdahiya@...>
          > Sender: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 06:56:40 +0530 (IST)
          > To: <JatHistory@yahoogroups.com>
          > ReplyTo: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Dear Ajay Singh,
          > A good article,however i suggest a small correction.Brig Hoshiar singh was from village SANKHOL near BAHADUR GARH.Hoshiar singh that you are mixing with was a PVC awardee in 1971 war with pak.He was from vill SISANA & rightly as you said was of DAHIYA GOTRA .
          > col ms dahia
          >
          > --- On Mon, 29/11/10, Ajay Singh <asingh71@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > From: Ajay Singh <asingh71@...>
          > Subject: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
          > To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Monday, 29 November, 2010, 9:44 PM
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > http://news.in.msn.com/national/article.aspx?cp-documentid=4638428
          >
          >
          > Had India's intelligence establishment not been utterly inadequate, it could probably have got wind of a carefully calibrated military action of limited duration that the Chinese were planning to "teach India a lesson". Roderick Macfarquhar, the eminent Harvard Sinologist, in the third volume of his trilogy, The Origins of the Chinese Cultural Revolution, has fully documented all the meetings Mao Zedong presided over to minutely plan the entire operation. The legendary Marshal Liu Bochang was given overall military command, with veterans of the 1950-53 Korean War commanding the divisions that fought. Today the intelligence machine is greatly expanded and diversified. We also have had the National Security Council, the National Security Advisory Board and a network of think-tanks for some years. But sadly the system of collection and evaluation of intelligence and that of making policy on national security has improved only marginally. Moreover, Nehru was ill-served by his civilian and military advisers. None ever argued with him, leave alone expressing dissent from his view. "Panditji knows best" was the doctrine of the day.
          > Lieutenant-General B. M. Kaul's appointment as the battlefield commander in NEFA was unfortunate. Though a first-rate military bureaucrat and a dynamic individual, he had no combat experience. Yet his clout with the defence minister and even the PM was so great that his superiors in the military thought it prudent not to cross his path. This resulted, on November 17, in the catastrophe of the commander of the once famous 4th Division, Major-General A. S. Pathania, panicking and demanding permission to withdraw immediately. Army Chief General P. N. Thapar(Karan Thapar Father), and GOC-in-C of Eastern Command Lieutenant-General S. P. Sen, were present at the corps HQ while Kaul was away, and could not be reached. They did nothing to restrain Pathania. When Brigadier Hoshiar Singh, sitting atop Sela Pass with enough men and equipment and determined to fight, tried to do so, he was threatened with court-martial. (A Haryanvi Jat with Dahiya Gotra)
          > Finally, even today, there is insufficient awareness in this country about the impact on the India-China conflict of both the Sino-Soviet split and the Cuban missile crisis that, to an extent, coincided with the border war. In the first place, Mao's decision to "teach India a lesson" was addressed as much to Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev as it was to Nehru. According to Macfarquhar, the Chinese had foreknowledge of the secret deployment of Soviet missiles in Cuba "because of their excellent contacts in Havana." They did not know when exactly the crisis would burst into the open; but they were sure it would. They exploited the situation to their advantage. Khrushchev could not afford to take on both the US and China at the same time. So, to India's dismay, he did briefly tilt towards China -- but reverted to his old broadly pro-India policy after the Cuban showdown that began two days after the Chinese invasion of India was over.
          > There is no point going over Khrushchev's extraordinary cordiality to the departing Chinese ambassador, Liu Xiao, the Pravda editorial of October 25 that talked of "our Chinese brothers and Indian friends" and so on. At the end the People's Daily said: "During the Cuban crisis, the Russians spoke a few seemingly fair words, but when the crisis was over they went back. They have sided with reactionary India against China all the time." No wonder Mao tauntingly accused Khrushchev of "cowardice in the Caribbean and perfidy in the Himalayas."
          > (The writer is a Delhi-based political commentator)
          >


        • arvindmalik_2003@yahoo.com
          I think, ravi missed the original post. Resulted in Strange comments from him Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone ... From: Col.M.S Dahiya
          Message 4 of 19 , Dec 1, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            I think, ravi missed the original post.
            Resulted in Strange comments from him

            Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone


            From: "Col.M.S Dahiya" <col_msdahiya@...>
            Sender: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 18:05:57 +0530 (IST)
            To: <JatHistory@yahoogroups.com>
            ReplyTo: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [JatHistory] Re: CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction

             

            Ravi ji,
            I take a very strong exception to what you have said about the gallant act of Brig Hoshiar singh .i strongly recomend that you update your knowlwdge before commenting on such emotional/sensitive issues .Only a soldier knows how he fights two set of enemies in such situations ,one the enemy in his front & the others, his higher HQ who give at times very unreasonable orders.Brig Hoshiar was one of those enumerables field commanders who experience these first hand.The Brig went down, executing one of the most unreasonable one .It needs lots of punk to do this.I am saying this based on my personal first hand experience in SIACHIN GLACIER ,THE HIGHEST BATTLE FIELD IN THE WORLD.

            col ms dahiya,shaurya chakra
            --- On Wed, 1/12/10, ravichaudhary2000 <ravichaudhary2000@...> wrote:

            From: ravichaudhary2000 <ravichaudhary2000@...>
            Subject: [JatHistory] Re: CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
            To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Wednesday, 1 December, 2010, 5:21 PM

             
            With all respect.

            If I could play devil's advocate, and this will create some controversy-

            I am missing something?

            Why should he have been awarded a medal?

            He was a defeated commander, who abandoned a very strong position.

            Ravi Chaudhary

            --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, rajender123 rana <rajender123@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Sir,many of us think same way,but the harsh realty is that he was not awarded any medal.His village is in jhajjar district and i happen to serve as secratry zila sainik board of that district,and this is how i came to know about this .
            >
            >
            > To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
            > From: msbajwa@...
            > Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 19:31:57 +0530
            > Subject: Re: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > I agree that he was from the Rathi Gotra but he was posthumously awarded the MVC.Of that I'm certain.
            >
            > Mandeep
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: rajender123 rana
            > To: jathistory@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 11:38 AM
            > Subject: RE: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
            >
            >
            >
            > brig hoshiar singh was rathee gotra jat and was not awarded any gallantry medal in 1662 war
            >
            >
            >
            > To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
            > From: msbajwa@...
            > Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 01:41:33 +0000
            > Subject: Re: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Brig Hoshiar Singh was posthomously awarded the MVC.
            >
            > Mandeep Bajwa
            >
            > Sent from my BlackBerry® on Reliance Mobile, India's No. 1 Network. Go for it!
            >
            >
            >
            > From: "Col.M.S Dahiya" <col_msdahiya@...>
            > Sender: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 06:56:40 +0530 (IST)
            > To: <JatHistory@yahoogroups.com>
            > ReplyTo: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Dear Ajay Singh,
            > A good article,however i suggest a small correction.Brig Hoshiar singh was from village SANKHOL near BAHADUR GARH.Hoshiar singh that you are mixing with was a PVC awardee in 1971 war with pak.He was from vill SISANA & rightly as you said was of DAHIYA GOTRA .
            > col ms dahia
            >
            > --- On Mon, 29/11/10, Ajay Singh <asingh71@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > From: Ajay Singh <asingh71@...>
            > Subject: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
            > To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Monday, 29 November, 2010, 9:44 PM
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > http://news.in.msn.com/national/article.aspx?cp-documentid=4638428
            >
            >
            > Had India's intelligence establishment not been utterly inadequate, it could probably have got wind of a carefully calibrated military action of limited duration that the Chinese were planning to "teach India a lesson". Roderick Macfarquhar, the eminent Harvard Sinologist, in the third volume of his trilogy, The Origins of the Chinese Cultural Revolution, has fully documented all the meetings Mao Zedong presided over to minutely plan the entire operation. The legendary Marshal Liu Bochang was given overall military command, with veterans of the 1950-53 Korean War commanding the divisions that fought. Today the intelligence machine is greatly expanded and diversified. We also have had the National Security Council, the National Security Advisory Board and a network of think-tanks for some years. But sadly the system of collection and evaluation of intelligence and that of making policy on national security has improved only marginally. Moreover, Nehru was ill-served by his civilian and military advisers. None ever argued with him, leave alone expressing dissent from his view. "Panditji knows best" was the doctrine of the day.
            > Lieutenant-General B. M. Kaul's appointment as the battlefield commander in NEFA was unfortunate. Though a first-rate military bureaucrat and a dynamic individual, he had no combat experience. Yet his clout with the defence minister and even the PM was so great that his superiors in the military thought it prudent not to cross his path. This resulted, on November 17, in the catastrophe of the commander of the once famous 4th Division, Major-General A. S. Pathania, panicking and demanding permission to withdraw immediately. Army Chief General P. N. Thapar(Karan Thapar Father), and GOC-in-C of Eastern Command Lieutenant-General S. P. Sen, were present at the corps HQ while Kaul was away, and could not be reached. They did nothing to restrain Pathania. When Brigadier Hoshiar Singh, sitting atop Sela Pass with enough men and equipment and determined to fight, tried to do so, he was threatened with court-martial. (A Haryanvi Jat with Dahiya Gotra)
            > Finally, even today, there is insufficient awareness in this country about the impact on the India-China conflict of both the Sino-Soviet split and the Cuban missile crisis that, to an extent, coincided with the border war. In the first place, Mao's decision to "teach India a lesson" was addressed as much to Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev as it was to Nehru. According to Macfarquhar, the Chinese had foreknowledge of the secret deployment of Soviet missiles in Cuba "because of their excellent contacts in Havana." They did not know when exactly the crisis would burst into the open; but they were sure it would. They exploited the situation to their advantage. Khrushchev could not afford to take on both the US and China at the same time. So, to India's dismay, he did briefly tilt towards China -- but reverted to his old broadly pro-India policy after the Cuban showdown that began two days after the Chinese invasion of India was over.
            > There is no point going over Khrushchev's extraordinary cordiality to the departing Chinese ambassador, Liu Xiao, the Pravda editorial of October 25 that talked of "our Chinese brothers and Indian friends" and so on. At the end the People's Daily said: "During the Cuban crisis, the Russians spoke a few seemingly fair words, but when the crisis was over they went back. They have sided with reactionary India against China all the time." No wonder Mao tauntingly accused Khrushchev of "cowardice in the Caribbean and perfidy in the Himalayas."
            > (The writer is a Delhi-based political commentator)
            >


          • ravichaudhary2000
            Before everyone gets very emotional. Let me clarify. I have studied the 1962 war( fiasco)as much as the next person. An excellent book is The Unfought War of
            Message 5 of 19 , Dec 1, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              Before everyone gets very emotional.

              Let me clarify.

              I have studied the 1962 war( fiasco)as much as the next person.

              An excellent book is "The Unfought War of 1962 - J R Saigal( Lt Col), which goes into some detail how the entire division melted away, along with scathing accounts of the civilian politics of that time.

              A number of people received medals who should not have.

              There is no question in my mind that Brigadier faced an uphill task, was ordered to relinquish the Se-La( the Se - pass position) - something he loudly and repeatedly, said he could and would hold.Independent accounts also confirm that- it was a strong position, well stocked, well defended, there was no need to abandon it) He was ordered to abandon it.

              Service officers( present and past) justly keep the their mouths shut.They swallow the insults, day in and day out, all because they have taken an oath to defend their country.


              That being the case, my question is a broader one- when should be medal be granted and for what?.

              In that light why should Brigadier Hoshiar Singh have received a medal. Let us not fall into the trap, that it was an insult to the proud and brave Jats, not to give him a medal.


              Ravi Chaudhary









              --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, arvindmalik_2003@... wrote:
              >
              > I think, ravi missed the original post.
              > Resulted in Strange comments from him
              >
              >
              > Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: "Col.M.S Dahiya" <col_msdahiya@...>
              > Sender: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 18:05:57
              > To: <JatHistory@yahoogroups.com>
              > Reply-To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [JatHistory] Re: CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
              >
              > Ravi ji,
              > I take a very strong exception to what you have said about the gallant act of Brig Hoshiar singh .i strongly recomend that you update your knowlwdge before commenting on such emotional/sensitive issues .Only a soldier knows how he fights two set of enemies in such situations ,one the enemy in his front & the others, his higher HQ who give at times very unreasonable orders.Brig Hoshiar was one of those enumerables field commanders who experience these first hand.The Brig went down, executing one of the most unreasonable one .It needs lots of punk to do this.I am saying this based on my personal first hand experience in SIACHIN GLACIER ,THE HIGHEST BATTLE FIELD IN THE WORLD.
              >
              > col ms dahiya,shaurya chakra
              > --- On Wed, 1/12/10, ravichaudhary2000 <ravichaudhary2000@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: ravichaudhary2000 <ravichaudhary2000@...>
              > Subject: [JatHistory] Re: CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
              > To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Wednesday, 1 December, 2010, 5:21 PM
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              > With all respect.
              >
              > If I could play devil's advocate, and this will create some controversy-
              >
              > I am missing something?
              >
              > Why should he have been awarded a medal?
              >
              > He was a defeated commander, who abandoned a very strong position.
              >
              > Ravi Chaudhary
              >
              > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, rajender123 rana <rajender123@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > Sir,many of us think same way,but the harsh realty is that he was not awarded any medal.His village is in jhajjar district and i happen to serve as secratry zila sainik board of that district,and this is how i came to know about this .
              > >
              > >
              > > To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
              > > From: msbajwa@
              > > Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 19:31:57 +0530
              > > Subject: Re: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > I agree that he was from the Rathi Gotra but he was posthumously awarded the MVC.Of that I'm certain.
              > >
              > > Mandeep
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: rajender123 rana
              > > To: jathistory@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 11:38 AM
              > > Subject: RE: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > brig hoshiar singh was rathee gotra jat and was not awarded any gallantry medal in 1662 war
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
              > > From: msbajwa@
              > > Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 01:41:33 +0000
              > > Subject: Re: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Brig Hoshiar Singh was posthomously awarded the MVC.
              > >
              > > Mandeep Bajwa
              > >
              > > Sent from my BlackBerry® on Reliance Mobile, India's No. 1 Network. Go for it!
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > From: "Col.M.S Dahiya" <col_msdahiya@>
              > > Sender: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
              > > Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 06:56:40 +0530 (IST)
              > > To: <JatHistory@yahoogroups.com>
              > > ReplyTo: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: Re: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Dear Ajay Singh,
              > > A good article,however i suggest a small correction.Brig Hoshiar singh was from village SANKHOL near BAHADUR GARH.Hoshiar singh that you are mixing with was a PVC awardee in 1971 war with pak.He was from vill SISANA & rightly as you said was of DAHIYA GOTRA .
              > > col ms dahia
              > >
              > > --- On Mon, 29/11/10, Ajay Singh <asingh71@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > From: Ajay Singh <asingh71@>
              > > Subject: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
              > > To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
              > > Date: Monday, 29 November, 2010, 9:44 PM
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > http://news.in.msn.com/national/article.aspx?cp-documentid=4638428
              > >
              > >
              > > Had India's intelligence establishment not been utterly inadequate, it could probably have got wind of a carefully calibrated military action of limited duration that the Chinese were planning to "teach India a lesson". Roderick Macfarquhar, the eminent Harvard Sinologist, in the third volume of his trilogy, The Origins of the Chinese Cultural Revolution, has fully documented all the meetings Mao Zedong presided over to minutely plan the entire operation. The legendary Marshal Liu Bochang was given overall military command, with veterans of the 1950-53 Korean War commanding the divisions that fought. Today the intelligence machine is greatly expanded and diversified. We also have had the National Security Council, the National Security Advisory Board and a network of think-tanks for some years. But sadly the system of collection and evaluation of intelligence and that of making policy on national security has improved only marginally. Moreover, Nehru
              > was ill-served by his civilian and military advisers. None ever argued with him, leave alone expressing dissent from his view. "Panditji knows best" was the doctrine of the day.
              > > Lieutenant-General B. M. Kaul's appointment as the battlefield commander in NEFA was unfortunate. Though a first-rate military bureaucrat and a dynamic individual, he had no combat experience. Yet his clout with the defence minister and even the PM was so great that his superiors in the military thought it prudent not to cross his path. This resulted, on November 17, in the catastrophe of the commander of the once famous 4th Division, Major-General A. S. Pathania, panicking and demanding permission to withdraw immediately. Army Chief General P. N. Thapar(Karan Thapar Father), and GOC-in-C of Eastern Command Lieutenant-General S. P. Sen, were present at the corps HQ while Kaul was away, and could not be reached. They did nothing to restrain Pathania. When Brigadier Hoshiar Singh, sitting atop Sela Pass with enough men and equipment and determined to fight, tried to do so, he was threatened with court-martial. (A Haryanvi Jat with Dahiya Gotra)
              > > Finally, even today, there is insufficient awareness in this country about the impact on the India-China conflict of both the Sino-Soviet split and the Cuban missile crisis that, to an extent, coincided with the border war. In the first place, Mao's decision to "teach India a lesson" was addressed as much to Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev as it was to Nehru. According to Macfarquhar, the Chinese had foreknowledge of the secret deployment of Soviet missiles in Cuba "because of their excellent contacts in Havana." They did not know when exactly the crisis would burst into the open; but they were sure it would. They exploited the situation to their advantage. Khrushchev could not afford to take on both the US and China at the same time. So, to India's dismay, he did briefly tilt towards China -- but reverted to his old broadly pro-India policy after the Cuban showdown that began two days after the Chinese invasion of India was over.
              > > There is no point going over Khrushchev's extraordinary cordiality to the departing Chinese ambassador, Liu Xiao, the Pravda editorial of October 25 that talked of "our Chinese brothers and Indian friends" and so on. At the end the People's Daily said: "During the Cuban crisis, the Russians spoke a few seemingly fair words, but when the crisis was over they went back. They have sided with reactionary India against China all the time." No wonder Mao tauntingly accused Khrushchev of "cowardice in the Caribbean and perfidy in the Himalayas."
              > > (The writer is a Delhi-based political commentator)
              > >
              >
            • Ajay Singh
              Yeh desh hey Veer Jawanon Kaa, Dill waloon Ka, Matwalaonn Kaa.. Remember that song. Only country in the wordl where Honest is considered as Idiot even in
              Message 6 of 19 , Dec 1, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Yeh desh hey Veer Jawanon Kaa, Dill waloon Ka, Matwalaonn Kaa.. Remember that song. Only country in the wordl where "Honest" is considered as "Idiot" even in the families, Bold is considered Idiot and "Cowards" and "Desh Drohis" and corrupt generals got promotion and  rewards/medals.  Only things is all these corrupt muts be from bahman, Khatri, Rajput and Bania.That is why we even today don't know abot the castes of all our rulers before 1000 AD but after that every rulers caste is known and we were slaves for almost 1000 years, mentally or physically.

                On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 3:10 AM, rajender123 rana <rajender123@...> wrote:
                 

                Sir,many of us think same way,but the harsh realty is that he was not awarded any medal.His village is in jhajjar district and i happen to serve as secratry zila sainik board of that district,and this is how i came to know about this . 

                Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 19:31:57 +0530

                Subject: Re: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction

                 
                I agree that he was from the Rathi Gotra but he was posthumously awarded the MVC.Of that I'm certain.
                 
                Mandeep
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 11:38 AM
                Subject: RE: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction

                 

                brig hoshiar singh was rathee gotra jat and was  not awarded any gallantry medal in 1662 war


                To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
                From: msbajwa@...
                Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 01:41:33 +0000
                Subject: Re: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction

                 
                Brig Hoshiar Singh was posthomously awarded the MVC.

                Mandeep Bajwa

                Sent from my BlackBerry® on Reliance Mobile, India's No. 1 Network. Go for it!

                From: "Col.M.S Dahiya" <col_msdahiya@...>
                Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 06:56:40 +0530 (IST)
                Subject: Re: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction

                 
                Dear Ajay Singh,
                A good article,however i suggest a small correction.Brig Hoshiar singh was from village SANKHOL near BAHADUR GARH.Hoshiar singh that you are mixing with was a PVC awardee in 1971 war with pak.He was from vill SISANA & rightly as you said was of DAHIYA GOTRA .
                col ms dahia

                --- On Mon, 29/11/10, Ajay Singh <asingh71@...> wrote:

                From: Ajay Singh <asingh71@...>
                Subject: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
                To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Monday, 29 November, 2010, 9:44 PM

                 
                 
                 
                Had India's intelligence establishment not been utterly inadequate, it could probably have got wind of a carefully calibrated military action of limited duration that the Chinese were planning to "teach India a lesson". Roderick Macfarquhar, the eminent Harvard Sinologist, in the third volume of his trilogy, The Origins of the Chinese Cultural Revolution, has fully documented all the meetings Mao Zedong presided over to minutely plan the entire operation. The legendary Marshal Liu Bochang was given overall military command, with veterans of the 1950-53 Korean War commanding the divisions that fought. Today the intelligence machine is greatly expanded and diversified. We also have had the National Security Council, the National Security Advisory Board and a network of think-tanks for some years. But sadly the system of collection and evaluation of intelligence and that of making policy on national security has improved only marginally. Moreover, Nehru was ill-served by his civilian and military advisers. None ever argued with him, leave alone expressing dissent from his view. "Panditji knows best" was the doctrine of the day.
                Lieutenant-General B. M. Kaul's appointment as the battlefield commander in NEFA was unfortunate. Though a first-rate military bureaucrat and a dynamic individual, he had no combat experience. Yet his clout with the defence minister and even the PM was so great that his superiors in the military thought it prudent not to cross his path. This resulted, on November 17, in the catastrophe of the commander of the once famous 4th Division, Major-General A. S. Pathania, panicking and demanding permission to withdraw immediately. Army Chief General P. N. Thapar(Karan Thapar Father), and GOC-in-C of Eastern Command Lieutenant-General S. P. Sen, were present at the corps HQ while Kaul was away, and could not be reached. They did nothing to restrain Pathania. When Brigadier Hoshiar Singh, sitting atop Sela Pass with enough men and equipment and determined to fight, tried to do so, he was threatened with court-martial. (A Haryanvi Jat with Dahiya Gotra)
                Finally, even today, there is insufficient awareness in this country about the impact on the India-China conflict of both the Sino-Soviet split and the Cuban missile crisis that, to an extent, coincided with the border war. In the first place, Mao's decision to "teach India a lesson" was addressed as much to Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev as it was to Nehru. According to Macfarquhar, the Chinese had foreknowledge of the secret deployment of Soviet missiles in Cuba "because of their excellent contacts in Havana." They did not know when exactly the crisis would burst into the open; but they were sure it would. They exploited the situation to their advantage. Khrushchev could not afford to take on both the US and China at the same time. So, to India's dismay, he did briefly tilt towards China -- but reverted to his old broadly pro-India policy after the Cuban showdown that began two days after the Chinese invasion of India was over.
                There is no point going over Khrushchev's extraordinary cordiality to the departing Chinese ambassador, Liu Xiao, the Pravda editorial of October 25 that talked of "our Chinese brothers and Indian friends" and so on. At the end the People's Daily said: "During the Cuban crisis, the Russians spoke a few seemingly fair words, but when the crisis was over they went back. They have sided with reactionary India against China all the time." No wonder Mao tauntingly accused Khrushchev of "cowardice in the Caribbean and perfidy in the Himalayas."
                (The writer is a Delhi-based political commentator)






              • Mandeep Singh Bajwa
                Sorry, you re indeed right. I was mixing up the IOM and Croix de Guerre (equivalent awards) awarded to him during WW 2 with the MVC. I stand corrected. Mandeep
                Message 7 of 19 , Dec 1, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Sorry, you're indeed right. I was mixing up the IOM and Croix de Guerre (equivalent awards) awarded to him during WW 2 with the MVC. I stand corrected.
                   
                  Mandeep
                   
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 1:40 PM
                  Subject: RE: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction

                   

                  Sir,many of us think same way,but the harsh realty is that he was not awarded any medal.His village is in jhajjar district and i happen to serve as secratry zila sainik board of that district,and this is how i came to know about this . 


                  To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
                  From: msbajwa@...
                  Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 19:31:57 +0530
                  Subject: Re: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction

                   
                  I agree that he was from the Rathi Gotra but he was posthumously awarded the MVC.Of that I'm certain.
                   
                  Mandeep
                   
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 11:38 AM
                  Subject: RE: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction

                   

                  brig hoshiar singh was rathee gotra jat and was  not awarded any gallantry medal in 1662 war


                  To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
                  From: msbajwa@...
                  Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 01:41:33 +0000
                  Subject: Re: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction

                   
                  Brig Hoshiar Singh was posthomously awarded the MVC.

                  Mandeep Bajwa

                  Sent from my BlackBerry® on Reliance Mobile, India's No. 1 Network. Go for it!

                  From: "Col.M.S Dahiya" <col_msdahiya@...>
                  Sender: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 06:56:40 +0530 (IST)
                  To: <JatHistory@yahoogroups.com>
                  ReplyTo: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction

                   
                  Dear Ajay Singh,
                  A good article,however i suggest a small correction.Brig Hoshiar singh was from village SANKHOL near BAHADUR GARH.Hoshiar singh that you are mixing with was a PVC awardee in 1971 war with pak.He was from vill SISANA & rightly as you said was of DAHIYA GOTRA .
                  col ms dahia

                  --- On Mon, 29/11/10, Ajay Singh <asingh71@...> wrote:

                  From: Ajay Singh <asingh71@...>
                  Subject: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
                  To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Monday, 29 November, 2010, 9:44 PM

                   
                   
                   
                  Had India's intelligence establishment not been utterly inadequate, it could probably have got wind of a carefully calibrated military action of limited duration that the Chinese were planning to "teach India a lesson". Roderick Macfarquhar, the eminent Harvard Sinologist, in the third volume of his trilogy, The Origins of the Chinese Cultural Revolution, has fully documented all the meetings Mao Zedong presided over to minutely plan the entire operation. The legendary Marshal Liu Bochang was given overall military command, with veterans of the 1950-53 Korean War commanding the divisions that fought. Today the intelligence machine is greatly expanded and diversified. We also have had the National Security Council, the National Security Advisory Board and a network of think-tanks for some years. But sadly the system of collection and evaluation of intelligence and that of making policy on national security has improved only marginally. Moreover, Nehru was ill-served by his civilian and military advisers. None ever argued with him, leave alone expressing dissent from his view. "Panditji knows best" was the doctrine of the day.
                  Lieutenant-General B. M. Kaul's appointment as the battlefield commander in NEFA was unfortunate. Though a first-rate military bureaucrat and a dynamic individual, he had no combat experience. Yet his clout with the defence minister and even the PM was so great that his superiors in the military thought it prudent not to cross his path. This resulted, on November 17, in the catastrophe of the commander of the once famous 4th Division, Major-General A. S. Pathania, panicking and demanding permission to withdraw immediately. Army Chief General P. N. Thapar(Karan Thapar Father), and GOC-in-C of Eastern Command Lieutenant-General S. P. Sen, were present at the corps HQ while Kaul was away, and could not be reached. They did nothing to restrain Pathania. When Brigadier Hoshiar Singh, sitting atop Sela Pass with enough men and equipment and determined to fight, tried to do so, he was threatened with court-martial. (A Haryanvi Jat with Dahiya Gotra)
                  Finally, even today, there is insufficient awareness in this country about the impact on the India-China conflict of both the Sino-Soviet split and the Cuban missile crisis that, to an extent, coincided with the border war. In the first place, Mao's decision to "teach India a lesson" was addressed as much to Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev as it was to Nehru. According to Macfarquhar, the Chinese had foreknowledge of the secret deployment of Soviet missiles in Cuba "because of their excellent contacts in Havana." They did not know when exactly the crisis would burst into the open; but they were sure it would. They exploited the situation to their advantage. Khrushchev could not afford to take on both the US and China at the same time. So, to India's dismay, he did briefly tilt towards China -- but reverted to his old broadly pro-India policy after the Cuban showdown that began two days after the Chinese invasion of India was over.
                  There is no point going over Khrushchev's extraordinary cordiality to the departing Chinese ambassador, Liu Xiao, the Pravda editorial of October 25 that talked of "our Chinese brothers and Indian friends" and so on. At the end the People's Daily said: "During the Cuban crisis, the Russians spoke a few seemingly fair words, but when the crisis was over they went back. They have sided with reactionary India against China all the time." No wonder Mao tauntingly accused Khrushchev of "cowardice in the Caribbean and perfidy in the Himalayas."
                  (The writer is a Delhi-based political commentator)





                • rajender123 rana
                  Recently when my father expired while going through some paper s and document s i came across this historical peice of paper.I never wanted it to display it
                  Message 8 of 19 , Dec 2, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment

                    Recently when my father expired while going through some paper's and document's i came across this historical peice of paper.I never wanted it to display it publically but on second thought i felt that it is not a matter of personal glorification but a matter of history.
                    Ch.Harnath Singh was my grandfather,a very simple farmer who never looked back when it came to help others and society at large.I am really proud of my village(sisai) which contributed more than fifty thousand rupees in a single day for defence fund just after 1962 war

                    Regards
                    Rajender.    

                    To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
                    From: msbajwa@...
                    Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 01:29:12 +0530
                    Subject: Re: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction

                     
                    Sorry, you're indeed right. I was mixing up the IOM and Croix de Guerre (equivalent awards) awarded to him during WW 2 with the MVC. I stand corrected.
                     
                    Mandeep
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 1:40 PM
                    Subject: RE: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction

                     

                    Sir,many of us think same way,but the harsh realty is that he was not awarded any medal.His village is in jhajjar district and i happen to serve as secratry zila sainik board of that district,and this is how i came to know about this . 


                    To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
                    From: msbajwa@...
                    Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 19:31:57 +0530
                    Subject: Re: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction

                     
                    I agree that he was from the Rathi Gotra but he was posthumously awarded the MVC.Of that I'm certain.
                     
                    Mandeep
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 11:38 AM
                    Subject: RE: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction

                     

                    brig hoshiar singh was rathee gotra jat and was  not awarded any gallantry medal in 1662 war


                    To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
                    From: msbajwa@...
                    Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 01:41:33 +0000
                    Subject: Re: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction

                     
                    Brig Hoshiar Singh was posthomously awarded the MVC.

                    Mandeep Bajwa

                    Sent from my BlackBerry® on Reliance Mobile, India's No. 1 Network. Go for it!

                    From: "Col.M.S Dahiya" <col_msdahiya@...>
                    Sender: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 06:56:40 +0530 (IST)
                    To: <JatHistory@yahoogroups.com>
                    ReplyTo: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction

                     
                    Dear Ajay Singh,
                    A good article,however i suggest a small correction.Brig Hoshiar singh was from village SANKHOL near BAHADUR GARH.Hoshiar singh that you are mixing with was a PVC awardee in 1971 war with pak.He was from vill SISANA & rightly as you said was of DAHIYA GOTRA .
                    col ms dahia

                    --- On Mon, 29/11/10, Ajay Singh <asingh71@...> wrote:

                    From: Ajay Singh <asingh71@...>
                    Subject: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
                    To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Monday, 29 November, 2010, 9:44 PM

                     
                     
                     
                    Had India's intelligence establishment not been utterly inadequate, it could probably have got wind of a carefully calibrated military action of limited duration that the Chinese were planning to "teach India a lesson". Roderick Macfarquhar, the eminent Harvard Sinologist, in the third volume of his trilogy, The Origins of the Chinese Cultural Revolution, has fully documented all the meetings Mao Zedong presided over to minutely plan the entire operation. The legendary Marshal Liu Bochang was given overall military command, with veterans of the 1950-53 Korean War commanding the divisions that fought. Today the intelligence machine is greatly expanded and diversified. We also have had the National Security Council, the National Security Advisory Board and a network of think-tanks for some years. But sadly the system of collection and evaluation of intelligence and that of making policy on national security has improved only marginally. Moreover, Nehru was ill-served by his civilian and military advisers. None ever argued with him, leave alone expressing dissent from his view. "Panditji knows best" was the doctrine of the day.
                    Lieutenant-General B. M. Kaul's appointment as the battlefield commander in NEFA was unfortunate. Though a first-rate military bureaucrat and a dynamic individual, he had no combat experience. Yet his clout with the defence minister and even the PM was so great that his superiors in the military thought it prudent not to cross his path. This resulted, on November 17, in the catastrophe of the commander of the once famous 4th Division, Major-General A. S. Pathania, panicking and demanding permission to withdraw immediately. Army Chief General P. N. Thapar(Karan Thapar Father), and GOC-in-C of Eastern Command Lieutenant-General S. P. Sen, were present at the corps HQ while Kaul was away, and could not be reached. They did nothing to restrain Pathania. When Brigadier Hoshiar Singh, sitting atop Sela Pass with enough men and equipment and determined to fight, tried to do so, he was threatened with court-martial. (A Haryanvi Jat with Dahiya Gotra)
                    Finally, even today, there is insufficient awareness in this country about the impact on the India-China conflict of both the Sino-Soviet split and the Cuban missile crisis that, to an extent, coincided with the border war. In the first place, Mao's decision to "teach India a lesson" was addressed as much to Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev as it was to Nehru. According to Macfarquhar, the Chinese had foreknowledge of the secret deployment of Soviet missiles in Cuba "because of their excellent contacts in Havana." They did not know when exactly the crisis would burst into the open; but they were sure it would. They exploited the situation to their advantage. Khrushchev could not afford to take on both the US and China at the same time. So, to India's dismay, he did briefly tilt towards China -- but reverted to his old broadly pro-India policy after the Cuban showdown that began two days after the Chinese invasion of India was over.
                    There is no point going over Khrushchev's extraordinary cordiality to the departing Chinese ambassador, Liu Xiao, the Pravda editorial of October 25 that talked of "our Chinese brothers and Indian friends" and so on. At the end the People's Daily said: "During the Cuban crisis, the Russians spoke a few seemingly fair words, but when the crisis was over they went back. They have sided with reactionary India against China all the time." No wonder Mao tauntingly accused Khrushchev of "cowardice in the Caribbean and perfidy in the Himalayas."
                    (The writer is a Delhi-based political commentator)








                  • ravichaudhary2000
                    Dear Rajender That was a huge gift to the nation. In today s terms we would be looking at 5 crores at least. It is due to such nationalists like your family,
                    Message 9 of 19 , Dec 2, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dear Rajender


                      That was a huge gift to the nation.

                      In today's terms we would be looking at 5 crores at least.

                      It is due to such nationalists like your family, that all Jats can raise their head high.

                      Best wishes

                      Ravi Chaudhary



                      --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, rajender123 rana <rajender123@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Recently when my father expired while going through some paper's and document's i came across this historical peice of paper.I never wanted it to display it publically but on second thought i felt that it is not a matter of personal glorification but a matter of history.
                      > Ch.Harnath Singh was my grandfather,a very simple farmer who never looked back when it came to help others and society at large.I am really proud of my village(sisai) which contributed more than fifty thousand rupees in a single day for defence fund just after 1962 war
                      >
                      > Regards
                      > Rajender.
                      >
                    • ravichaudhary2000
                      ... The 50th anniversary is coming up in 2012, in alittel less that two years. Undoubtedly many will seek to sweep that event under the rug, and along with
                      Message 10 of 19 , Dec 2, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        >
                        >
                        > Sorry, you're indeed right. I was mixing up the IOM and Croix de Guerre (equivalent awards) awarded to him during WW 2 with the MVC. I stand corrected.
                        >
                        > Mandeep
                        >

                        The 50th anniversary is coming up in 2012, in alittel less that two years.

                        Undoubtedly many will seek to sweep that event under the rug, and along with the sacrifices our our honourable men and women in arms.

                        It is notable that no public enquiry was held into the debacle.

                        The positive side was that the armed forces recovered and showed their mettle in the events that followed- 65, 71, 99, etc.

                        What is generally not known is the number of skirmishes that occurred with the Chinese in the interim period, and the result.

                        Ravi Chaudhary
                      • Col.M.S Dahiya
                        Ravi ji, its a great idea.we are proud what Rajender,s grandfather contributed for the 1962 war.The problem is that JAT is too modest /humble to seek
                        Message 11 of 19 , Dec 2, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Ravi ji,
                          its a great idea.we are proud what Rajender,s grandfather contributed for the 1962 war.The problem is that JAT is too modest /humble to seek limelight&hence his contributions have been lost sight of in the history &now at this belated stage we are crying foul.General HENDERSON BROOKE COMMOTTEE did investigate the1962 war,but the report has not been made public so far .By celebratingthe anniversary in 2012 we can not only ask for the report but also pay tribute to all such gallant soldiers ,BRIG in particular.I am prepared to take this on ground provided all brothers &sisters on this group are prepared to hold my hand &support in every way. ANY TAKERS PLEASE?.
                          col ms dahiya 

                          --- On Fri, 3/12/10, ravichaudhary2000 <ravichaudhary2000@...> wrote:

                          From: ravichaudhary2000 <ravichaudhary2000@...>
                          Subject: [JatHistory] Re: CHINA WAR -- 50 th anniversary 2010- Brig Hosiaer Singh etc
                          To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Friday, 3 December, 2010, 12:54 AM

                           

                          >
                          >
                          > Sorry, you're indeed right. I was mixing up the IOM and Croix de Guerre (equivalent awards) awarded to him during WW 2 with the MVC. I stand corrected.
                          >
                          > Mandeep
                          >

                          The 50th anniversary is coming up in 2012, in alittel less that two years.

                          Undoubtedly many will seek to sweep that event under the rug, and along with the sacrifices our our honourable men and women in arms.

                          It is notable that no public enquiry was held into the debacle.

                          The positive side was that the armed forces recovered and showed their mettle in the events that followed- 65, 71, 99, etc.

                          What is generally not known is the number of skirmishes that occurred with the Chinese in the interim period, and the result.

                          Ravi Chaudhary


                        • ravichaudhary2000
                          I will support the initiative for the 50th anniversary. Others will too. This can be a function at suitable venue- Surajmal Institute? I am sure everyone
                          Message 12 of 19 , Dec 3, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I will support the initiative for the 50th anniversary. Others will too.

                            This can be a function at suitable venue- Surajmal Institute? I am sure everyone there will support it.

                            It may be desirable to accumulate as many names, and short bio's and pics as possible.

                            The net is a wonderful medium, to immortalize these heros.

                            Ravi




                            On Rajender's grandfather.

                            I will ask Rajender to send us a bio of his grandfather, with photographs

                            We will put up a page on Jatland Wiki. This will act as an inspiration to our youth in the community today


                            Ravi Chaudhary

                            --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "Col.M.S Dahiya" <col_msdahiya@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Ravi ji,
                            > its a great idea.we are proud what Rajender,s grandfather contributed for the 1962 war.The problem is that JAT is too modest /humble to seek limelight&hence his contributions have been lost sight of in the history &now at this belated stage we are crying foul.General HENDERSON BROOKE COMMOTTEE did investigate the1962 war,but the report has not been made public so far .By celebratingthe anniversary in 2012 we can not only ask for the report but also pay tribute to all such gallant soldiers ,BRIG in particular.I am prepared to take this on ground provided all brothers &sisters on this group are prepared to hold my hand &support in every way. ANY TAKERS PLEASE?.
                            > col ms dahiya 
                            >
                            > --- On Fri, 3/12/10, ravichaudhary2000 <ravichaudhary2000@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > From: ravichaudhary2000 <ravichaudhary2000@...>
                            > Subject: [JatHistory] Re: CHINA WAR -- 50 th anniversary 2010- Brig Hosiaer Singh etc
                            > To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
                            > Date: Friday, 3 December, 2010, 12:54 AM
                            >
                            >
                            >  
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Sorry, you're indeed right. I was mixing up the IOM and Croix de Guerre (equivalent awards) awarded to him during WW 2 with the MVC. I stand corrected.
                            > >
                            > > Mandeep
                            > >
                            >
                            > The 50th anniversary is coming up in 2012, in alittel less that two years.
                            >
                            > Undoubtedly many will seek to sweep that event under the rug, and along with the sacrifices our our honourable men and women in arms.
                            >
                            > It is notable that no public enquiry was held into the debacle.
                            >
                            > The positive side was that the armed forces recovered and showed their mettle in the events that followed- 65, 71, 99, etc.
                            >
                            > What is generally not known is the number of skirmishes that occurred with the Chinese in the interim period, and the result.
                            >
                            > Ravi Chaudhary
                            >
                          • s.s. rana
                            There is a bit of information I wish to share. Brig. Hoshiyar Singh was initially not awarded the M.V.C ,On the contrary he was seen as one whop dared to go
                            Message 13 of 19 , Dec 4, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              There is a bit of information I wish to share. Brig. Hoshiyar Singh was initially not awarded the M.V.C ,On the contrary he was seen as one whop dared to go against the advice of his Commander(to wqithdraw). It was a fortuopus meeting of Mrs Hoshiyar Singh with Mrs. Indira Gandhi arranged byu Dr. Sarup Singh, then Principal of Kirorimal College,Delhi University at a function of thje College. Mrs. Indira Gandhi gave a long and patient hnearing to Mrs. Hoshiyar Singh who gave  the correct version best known tol her. Mrs. Indira Gandhi of course was in a position to get the record straight and injustice undone.M.V.C medal to Brig. Hoshiyar Singh was the outcome.
                              S.S.Rana

                              --- On Wed, 1/12/10, Col.M.S Dahiya <col_msdahiya@...> wrote:

                              From: Col.M.S Dahiya <col_msdahiya@...>
                              Subject: Re: [JatHistory] Re: CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
                              To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Wednesday, 1 December, 2010, 6:05 PM

                               
                              Ravi ji,
                              I take a very strong exception to what you have said about the gallant act of Brig Hoshiar singh .i strongly recomend that you update your knowlwdge before commenting on such emotional/sensitive issues .Only a soldier knows how he fights two set of enemies in such situations ,one the enemy in his front & the others, his higher HQ who give at times very unreasonable orders.Brig Hoshiar was one of those enumerables field commanders who experience these first hand.The Brig went down, executing one of the most unreasonable one .It needs lots of punk to do this.I am saying this based on my personal first hand experience in SIACHIN GLACIER ,THE HIGHEST BATTLE FIELD IN THE WORLD.

                              col ms dahiya,shaurya chakra
                              --- On Wed, 1/12/10, ravichaudhary2000 <ravichaudhary2000@...> wrote:

                              From: ravichaudhary2000 <ravichaudhary2000@...>
                              Subject: [JatHistory] Re: CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
                              To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Wednesday, 1 December, 2010, 5:21 PM

                               
                              With all respect.

                              If I could play devil's advocate, and this will create some controversy-

                              I am missing something?

                              Why should he have been awarded a medal?

                              He was a defeated commander, who abandoned a very strong position.

                              Ravi Chaudhary

                              --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, rajender123 rana <rajender123@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Sir,many of us think same way,but the harsh realty is that he was not awarded any medal.His village is in jhajjar district and i happen to serve as secratry zila sainik board of that district,and this is how i came to know about this .
                              >
                              >
                              > To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
                              > From: msbajwa@...
                              > Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 19:31:57 +0530
                              > Subject: Re: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > I agree that he was from the Rathi Gotra but he was posthumously awarded the MVC.Of that I'm certain.
                              >
                              > Mandeep
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: rajender123 rana
                              > To: jathistory@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 11:38 AM
                              > Subject: RE: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > brig hoshiar singh was rathee gotra jat and was not awarded any gallantry medal in 1662 war
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
                              > From: msbajwa@...
                              > Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 01:41:33 +0000
                              > Subject: Re: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Brig Hoshiar Singh was posthomously awarded the MVC.
                              >
                              > Mandeep Bajwa
                              >
                              > Sent from my BlackBerry® on Reliance Mobile, India's No. 1 Network. Go for it!
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > From: "Col.M.S Dahiya" <col_msdahiya@...>
                              > Sender: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
                              > Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 06:56:40 +0530 (IST)
                              > To: <JatHistory@yahoogroups.com>
                              > ReplyTo: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: Re: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Dear Ajay Singh,
                              > A good article,however i suggest a small correction.Brig Hoshiar singh was from village SANKHOL near BAHADUR GARH.Hoshiar singh that you are mixing with was a PVC awardee in 1971 war with pak.He was from vill SISANA & rightly as you said was of DAHIYA GOTRA .
                              > col ms dahia
                              >
                              > --- On Mon, 29/11/10, Ajay Singh <asingh71@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > From: Ajay Singh <asingh71@...>
                              > Subject: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
                              > To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
                              > Date: Monday, 29 November, 2010, 9:44 PM
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > http://news.in.msn.com/national/article.aspx?cp-documentid=4638428
                              >
                              >
                              > Had India's intelligence establishment not been utterly inadequate, it could probably have got wind of a carefully calibrated military action of limited duration that the Chinese were planning to "teach India a lesson". Roderick Macfarquhar, the eminent Harvard Sinologist, in the third volume of his trilogy, The Origins of the Chinese Cultural Revolution, has fully documented all the meetings Mao Zedong presided over to minutely plan the entire operation. The legendary Marshal Liu Bochang was given overall military command, with veterans of the 1950-53 Korean War commanding the divisions that fought. Today the intelligence machine is greatly expanded and diversified. We also have had the National Security Council, the National Security Advisory Board and a network of think-tanks for some years. But sadly the system of collection and evaluation of intelligence and that of making policy on national security has improved only marginally. Moreover, Nehru was ill-served by his civilian and military advisers. None ever argued with him, leave alone expressing dissent from his view. "Panditji knows best" was the doctrine of the day.
                              > Lieutenant-General B. M. Kaul's appointment as the battlefield commander in NEFA was unfortunate. Though a first-rate military bureaucrat and a dynamic individual, he had no combat experience. Yet his clout with the defence minister and even the PM was so great that his superiors in the military thought it prudent not to cross his path. This resulted, on November 17, in the catastrophe of the commander of the once famous 4th Division, Major-General A. S. Pathania, panicking and demanding permission to withdraw immediately. Army Chief General P. N. Thapar(Karan Thapar Father), and GOC-in-C of Eastern Command Lieutenant-General S. P. Sen, were present at the corps HQ while Kaul was away, and could not be reached. They did nothing to restrain Pathania. When Brigadier Hoshiar Singh, sitting atop Sela Pass with enough men and equipment and determined to fight, tried to do so, he was threatened with court-martial. (A Haryanvi Jat with Dahiya Gotra)
                              > Finally, even today, there is insufficient awareness in this country about the impact on the India-China conflict of both the Sino-Soviet split and the Cuban missile crisis that, to an extent, coincided with the border war. In the first place, Mao's decision to "teach India a lesson" was addressed as much to Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev as it was to Nehru. According to Macfarquhar, the Chinese had foreknowledge of the secret deployment of Soviet missiles in Cuba "because of their excellent contacts in Havana." They did not know when exactly the crisis would burst into the open; but they were sure it would. They exploited the situation to their advantage. Khrushchev could not afford to take on both the US and China at the same time. So, to India's dismay, he did briefly tilt towards China -- but reverted to his old broadly pro-India policy after the Cuban showdown that began two days after the Chinese invasion of India was over.
                              > There is no point going over Khrushchev's extraordinary cordiality to the departing Chinese ambassador, Liu Xiao, the Pravda editorial of October 25 that talked of "our Chinese brothers and Indian friends" and so on. At the end the People's Daily said: "During the Cuban crisis, the Russians spoke a few seemingly fair words, but when the crisis was over they went back. They have sided with reactionary India against China all the time." No wonder Mao tauntingly accused Khrushchev of "cowardice in the Caribbean and perfidy in the Himalayas."
                              > (The writer is a Delhi-based political commentator)
                              >



                            • s.s. rana
                              ... From: s.s. rana Subject: Re: [JatHistory] Re: CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction To:
                              Message 14 of 19 , Dec 4, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment


                                --- On Sat, 4/12/10, s.s. rana <drssrana2003@...> wrote:

                                From: s.s. rana <drssrana2003@...>
                                Subject: Re: [JatHistory] Re: CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
                                To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Saturday, 4 December, 2010, 7:17 PM

                                 
                                There is a bit of information I wish to share. Brig. Hoshiyar Singh was initially not awarded the M.V.C ,On the contrary he was seen as one whop dared to go against the advice of his Commander(to wqithdraw). It was a fortuopus meeting of Mrs Hoshiyar Singh with Mrs. Indira Gandhi arranged byu Dr. Sarup Singh, then Principal of Kirorimal College,Delhi University at a function of thje College. Mrs. Indira Gandhi gave a long and patient hnearing to Mrs. Hoshiyar Singh who gave  the correct version best known tol her. Mrs. Indira Gandhi of course was in a position to get the record straight and injustice undone.M.V.C medal to Brig. Hoshiyar Singh was the outcome.
                                S.S.Rana

                                --- On Wed, 1/12/10, Col.M.S Dahiya <col_msdahiya@...> wrote:

                                From: Col.M.S Dahiya <col_msdahiya@...>
                                Subject: Re: [JatHistory] Re: CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
                                To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Wednesday, 1 December, 2010, 6:05 PM

                                 
                                Ravi ji,
                                I take a very strong exception to what you have said about the gallant act of Brig Hoshiar singh .i strongly recomend that you update your knowlwdge before commenting on such emotional/sensitive issues .Only a soldier knows how he fights two set of enemies in such situations ,one the enemy in his front & the others, his higher HQ who give at times very unreasonable orders.Brig Hoshiar was one of those enumerables field commanders who experience these first hand.The Brig went down, executing one of the most unreasonable one .It needs lots of punk to do this.I am saying this based on my personal first hand experience in SIACHIN GLACIER ,THE HIGHEST BATTLE FIELD IN THE WORLD.

                                col ms dahiya,shaurya chakra
                                --- On Wed, 1/12/10, ravichaudhary2000 <ravichaudhary2000@...> wrote:

                                From: ravichaudhary2000 <ravichaudhary2000@...>
                                Subject: [JatHistory] Re: CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
                                To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Wednesday, 1 December, 2010, 5:21 PM

                                 
                                With all respect.

                                If I could play devil's advocate, and this will create some controversy-

                                I am missing something?

                                Why should he have been awarded a medal?

                                He was a defeated commander, who abandoned a very strong position.

                                Ravi Chaudhary

                                --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, rajender123 rana <rajender123@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > Sir,many of us think same way,but the harsh realty is that he was not awarded any medal.His village is in jhajjar district and i happen to serve as secratry zila sainik board of that district,and this is how i came to know about this .
                                >
                                >
                                > To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
                                > From: msbajwa@...
                                > Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 19:31:57 +0530
                                > Subject: Re: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > I agree that he was from the Rathi Gotra but he was posthumously awarded the MVC.Of that I'm certain.
                                >
                                > Mandeep
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: rajender123 rana
                                > To: jathistory@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 11:38 AM
                                > Subject: RE: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > brig hoshiar singh was rathee gotra jat and was not awarded any gallantry medal in 1662 war
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
                                > From: msbajwa@...
                                > Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 01:41:33 +0000
                                > Subject: Re: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Brig Hoshiar Singh was posthomously awarded the MVC.
                                >
                                > Mandeep Bajwa
                                >
                                > Sent from my BlackBerry® on Reliance Mobile, India's No. 1 Network. Go for it!
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > From: "Col.M.S Dahiya" <col_msdahiya@...>
                                > Sender: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
                                > Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 06:56:40 +0530 (IST)
                                > To: <JatHistory@yahoogroups.com>
                                > ReplyTo: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: Re: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Dear Ajay Singh,
                                > A good article,however i suggest a small correction.Brig Hoshiar singh was from village SANKHOL near BAHADUR GARH.Hoshiar singh that you are mixing with was a PVC awardee in 1971 war with pak.He was from vill SISANA & rightly as you said was of DAHIYA GOTRA .
                                > col ms dahia
                                >
                                > --- On Mon, 29/11/10, Ajay Singh <asingh71@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > From: Ajay Singh <asingh71@...>
                                > Subject: [JatHistory] CHINA WAR -- Interesting Article and our Chiefs/Commanders reaction
                                > To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
                                > Date: Monday, 29 November, 2010, 9:44 PM
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > http://news.in.msn.com/national/article.aspx?cp-documentid=4638428
                                >
                                >
                                > Had India's intelligence establishment not been utterly inadequate, it could probably have got wind of a carefully calibrated military action of limited duration that the Chinese were planning to "teach India a lesson". Roderick Macfarquhar, the eminent Harvard Sinologist, in the third volume of his trilogy, The Origins of the Chinese Cultural Revolution, has fully documented all the meetings Mao Zedong presided over to minutely plan the entire operation. The legendary Marshal Liu Bochang was given overall military command, with veterans of the 1950-53 Korean War commanding the divisions that fought. Today the intelligence machine is greatly expanded and diversified. We also have had the National Security Council, the National Security Advisory Board and a network of think-tanks for some years. But sadly the system of collection and evaluation of intelligence and that of making policy on national security has improved only marginally. Moreover, Nehru was ill-served by his civilian and military advisers. None ever argued with him, leave alone expressing dissent from his view. "Panditji knows best" was the doctrine of the day.
                                > Lieutenant-General B. M. Kaul's appointment as the battlefield commander in NEFA was unfortunate. Though a first-rate military bureaucrat and a dynamic individual, he had no combat experience. Yet his clout with the defence minister and even the PM was so great that his superiors in the military thought it prudent not to cross his path. This resulted, on November 17, in the catastrophe of the commander of the once famous 4th Division, Major-General A. S. Pathania, panicking and demanding permission to withdraw immediately. Army Chief General P. N. Thapar(Karan Thapar Father), and GOC-in-C of Eastern Command Lieutenant-General S. P. Sen, were present at the corps HQ while Kaul was away, and could not be reached. They did nothing to restrain Pathania. When Brigadier Hoshiar Singh, sitting atop Sela Pass with enough men and equipment and determined to fight, tried to do so, he was threatened with court-martial. (A Haryanvi Jat with Dahiya Gotra)
                                > Finally, even today, there is insufficient awareness in this country about the impact on the India-China conflict of both the Sino-Soviet split and the Cuban missile crisis that, to an extent, coincided with the border war. In the first place, Mao's decision to "teach India a lesson" was addressed as much to Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev as it was to Nehru. According to Macfarquhar, the Chinese had foreknowledge of the secret deployment of Soviet missiles in Cuba "because of their excellent contacts in Havana." They did not know when exactly the crisis would burst into the open; but they were sure it would. They exploited the situation to their advantage. Khrushchev could not afford to take on both the US and China at the same time. So, to India's dismay, he did briefly tilt towards China -- but reverted to his old broadly pro-India policy after the Cuban showdown that began two days after the Chinese invasion of India was over.
                                > There is no point going over Khrushchev's extraordinary cordiality to the departing Chinese ambassador, Liu Xiao, the Pravda editorial of October 25 that talked of "our Chinese brothers and Indian friends" and so on. At the end the People's Daily said: "During the Cuban crisis, the Russians spoke a few seemingly fair words, but when the crisis was over they went back. They have sided with reactionary India against China all the time." No wonder Mao tauntingly accused Khrushchev of "cowardice in the Caribbean and perfidy in the Himalayas."
                                > (The writer is a Delhi-based political commentator)
                                >




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