Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [JatHistory] What's Gotra Got To Do With It?

Expand Messages
  • arvind kumar
    Dear all ,   This is pleasant to see that your TOI column ‘What’s Gotra What To Do With It’ is not featuring on your site under ‘columns’ and
    Message 1 of 13 , Jun 6, 2010

      Dear all ,

       

      This is pleasant to see that your TOI column ‘What’s Gotra What To Do With It’ is not featuring on your site under ‘columns’ and ‘blog’ where your past and present columns are available.

      I seriously consider that you should  say sorry and  be apologies for tarnishing the image of Khap Panchayat without knowing the facts and carried away by the some far from truth , stories of ‘off the shelf’  journalists.

      Khaps can’t demand apology from you as they are informal institution , no address , no office and no spokesperson … but they represent a culture ,  ethnicity and community.

      We still believe that you not from the genre of ‘off the shelf’ , you are independent  voice so don’t dilute it  by writing such baseless and far from truth comments sitting in Mumbai.

      Regards

      Arvind Malik

      http://www.arvindmalikblog.blogspot.com/

      --- On Sun, 5/30/10, arvind kumar <arvindmalik_2003@...> wrote:

      From: arvind kumar <arvindmalik_2003@...>
      Subject: Re: [JatHistory] What's Gotra Got To Do With It?
      To: chetan.bhagat@..., JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
      Cc: tavleensingh@..., nandita.sengupta@..., letters@..., paramitaghosh@..., letters@..., neha@..., letters@..., tavleen.singh@..., letters@..., rajdeep.sardesai@..., barkha@..., rajeshtripathi@..., vineet.journalist@..., sushil_gangwar@..., Manveer.Saini@..., Chetan.Bhagat@..., ronojoy.sen@..., nbtonline@..., mailerservice@..., toiblogseditor@..., toireporter@..., editor@..., info@..., kavitakrish73@...
      Date: Sunday, May 30, 2010, 1:59 PM

      At last I will take the opportunity to clear a few points.

      Bloodline make the clan members brother and sister , and we have our bloodline and clan linage very clear , so same clan marriage is  unacceptable in  Jat communities .

      For us we have options lined up

      (1)    Easiest way is to accommodate the tradition of the  community ,  4 -5 Crore in numbers , in the Hindu Marriage act . HMA also acknowledge “Custom and usage signify any rule which having been continuously and uniformly observed for a long time ,has obtained the force of law among Hindus in any local area , tribe ,community, group of family.”   ( WE are proposing amendment for Jats only , we are not concerned  in what custom other communities indulge in)

      (2)    Next option is , We are ready to severe our association with Hindu religion , we were always on the fringe and were loggerhead with the puranic/Bhrahmenical  mindset . We never bow down  to rigid and inhumane practices ,  massacre of Buddhists  in the name of religion , sacrifice of animals , ritual on the basis of false purans , Sati … list is long . On the contrary we observes widow marriage . All these things kept us on the fringe of Hindu religion and were never a complete Hindu.

             So if people will keep on imposing us the custom of Hindus , under the disguise of Hindu   marriage act . We should call us ourselves non-Hindu  , and demand  our right as minority religion , like Sikh  & Muslim.

      (3)    Finally , In the case of continuous  oppression  by the hand of these Hindus , in their pursuit of creating a homogenous religion and  from state who don’t want to acknowledge our ethnic  identity and culture and want to force the  constitutional clause of marriage , those are against the belief and ethos of our community. We should approach the UN and other world bodies and raise the issue that  in Indian state our ethnic community’s culture and tradition is not safe and not being protected and we are facing  soft ethnic cleansing,  so  need a separate homeland , like Kurd are demanding in Iraq and Turkey , Jews got Israel .

       

        Indian subcontinent is the house of may nations and ethnic groups  . These groups have their own customs ,  tradition  , way of life and they put more loyalties and pride in their ethnicity then their religion and nationality.

      We have seen the example of Pakistan , who tried to create a homogenous society in the name of ISLAM and with the slogans “Hum sab musalman hain” ,hoping that religion will be the glue to keep the different ethnicity together even without a cumbersome  democracy. First causality was in the form of  Bangladesh ,  Bengoli ethnicity came out of Islamic glue ,when their  tradition and culture was ridiculed and humiliated by the powerful Punjabi  ethnicity , it was a loss for Pakistan and setback for Muslim ummat.

      To day in Pakistan , there is very visible divide on ethnic lines , Baloch are all out for freedom and it can happen at any time , Sindhi , Mohajir , Hazara , Pakhtun , Pathan and Punjabi  ethnicity are suspicious with each other . So, it’s clear in this  subcontinent  Ethnic  affiliation is far more emotional issue and people has very clear priority ,ethnicity comes on top of priority compare to religion and nationality .

      USSR  broke into numerous countries formed basically on ethnic basis , so monolithic and homogenous society  created by the name of nationality can’t survive too.

        We can change  our faith in two minutes  ,can change our nationality in manageable time ,  but never our ethnic linage.

      Hope this will make you little more wiser , NOW , people like you should think , in which way you want us to  behave  and pursue the option . Compromising on our ethnic identity and it’s institution is unacceptable to every young Jat.

       

      Chetan Bhagat ji , I’m not a revered writer like you still mustering the courage to reply line by line (my comments in blue) of your article .

      You disappointed greatly because we expect clarity of thought , social awareness and sensibility some one like you, sorry to say your article is insipid ,immature and shows that you haven’t qualified to write on social issues yet,  and probably never be , because it seems you have not seen the Indian society  and don’t have any first hand experience . There is nothing wrong , we have plethora of such thinkers and sociologist around  and fiercely vocal , those have just the birds’ eye view on every social issue , long gone the days when Premchand , Sharatchand and Gurudatt..etc.  could reflect the Indian society in just few lines.

      Knowingly or unknowing you have joined the chain of pseudo journalist engage in tarnishing the image of khap Panchayats  , like by birth we become Indian  in the  same way every  Jat is defecto member of Khap. And  this compelling reason forcing me to try to bridges some gaps transpire from your article.

       

      I don't know my own gotra. I didn't even know what gotra meant until recently.

      In what account this is a matter of pride , not able to understand. I hope ,you at least  know name of your grandfather. It’s all in lineage , if our family and we are proud of it we will be aware of it thoroughly  else family will not touch this thread and child will be ignorant. 2ndly , if we incline towards  social subject.. like history, literature this will lead to us automatically to this understanding , if we are incline towards Science subject  , our inclination towards math and science have less to do with  history and anthropology , in your case you were incline to science subject and writer by accident.

      Many people still don't, but calling it a sub-caste is a good proxy definition.

      Chetan ji , one thing I will admire about you that you are thoroughly honest in  showing your ignorance and that too on a national daily. Gotra a subcast , such a lame definition can be expected from a foreign journalist who is on one month tour of incredible India or from some Firangi professor teaching about  indian society in some foreign university . Their ignorance is pardonable  , but here a whole lot of writers  and social thinkers  are making   all sort of comments and definition based on sallow knowledge of matter at hand and over simplifying it that it become counter productive.

       

       I don't know why it was invented, or why it is still relevant.

      You are right up to some extent that these were “Invented” , Brahmins they invented by the names of rishies. These Brahnmin further invented gotra for rajputs at Agnikund of Mount Abu around  1100 years back.  Gotra is the word mainly used with Brahmin terminology, different people interpret it differently. 

      For Jats we have clan system   and  organized in 4000 different patrilineal  clans. These clans are started from some historical person , families . Over the time decedents of these person or family grown up and we have clans living in only one village and some big clans live in 70,80 villages.  Our clan is taken as gotra by all non jats those are unaware of clan system.

      Because of these clan , this give us far rigorous social bonding and we are aware of the house and family from where the whole clan started centuries ago . The eldest member or patriarch of this house and family is known as Baba or Dada like in our family.  So whole bloodline and clan genealogy is in front  of our eyes .  If you visit house of any of these Baba , (ust 100 KM from delhi) ,you will find them among the modest household in village ,but  whole clan give respect to clan’s Baba and this is only power they have . Over the years they never let down their extended family members (clan). That’s the reason we don’t marry in clan because of this strong feeling of brotherhood/sisterhood among the clan members.

      So there is vast difference between “Gotra” and Clan , former is just for name sake and some time use during marriage ceremonies , while Clan is family linage , not something imaginary gotra name that has no meaning today.

      When you are saying “why it is still relevant” . I would say it is very subjective  , it’s upto individuals how much respects and affection he bestow on his family and extended family (clan) . We have cases where all children settled in US and old parents are left behind in India. So instead of being judgmental , lets leave it on the family/community members.

      As if it wasn't good enough to divide people on caste, we needed one more level of sub-caste slicing to ensure as many Indians hate each other as possible. 

      Nothing was created to divide and to integrate  , everything happened as a part of social evolution . So ,don’t  take these from prejudice mindset  . And level don’t ends here , level are upto individual  , even born in same family , siblings do differently  , some add the level of BE some will add MBA and they may hate each other for some or other reason  , and this give the birth of word  “sibling rivalry”  . So these individual emotions of hate , love can’t be generalize on the basis of any structure.

      However, this time it isn't being from different gotras that is a problem, it is being from the same one. Unlike inter-caste marriages that are considered problematic, the problem lies in intra-gotra marriages. These, according to some, will completely tarnish a family's reputation and pose health risks to kids of the wedded couple, due to genetic similarities. People from the same gotra aren't blood related, but marriage between them is not encouraged (read: death sentences are passed). 

       



      Leading the 'no-same-gotra- love' T-shirt brigade are the khap panchayats. The khap system is thousands of years old, and our erstwhile British rulers lived with it and probably encouraged it, to avoid the judicial system being flooded with petty disputes and enabling these to be solved at the local level.

      Dear Chetan , you really  don’t know history. During  and after 1857 British rulers put Khap Panchayat members under the steam rollers , hang them on nearest tree .

      Yes , Brits as more rational people didn’t  interfere in the social custom and traditions of our community   that includes widow remarriage (so no sati system) and almost no child marriage.

      Are issues of property , land holding , water sharing  are petty dispute ? , if any of such issue is not talked timely may start a series of murder in village .  So what are “Real” dispute , wrong parking ?  , because this is only issue urbanite face  and keep city police busy.

      I hope you haven’t forgotten the term “ Gram Swaraj” ,  a word coined by Mahatam Ghandhi , in  recognition of the competence of the people to manage its own life according to its traditions and customs. It would have been  the real freedom for the people of india  living in ‘7-lakh Village Republics’  , instead of centrally managed beurocracy  with the help of all tools and paraphernalia by which British was ruling the masses , like  Indian Penal code  , and a replica of US,UK,Ireland constitution. 

      “Read Death Sentences pass” : However a lot of hue and cry is being made about death sentences  but at a time when  video camera has make way to the bedroom of Governor and Swamis , no one has  produced single video clipping of panchayat delivering such sentence in broad day light in front of hundred of people.

      The British left 63 years ago, but khaps have survived, aided by the patronage of local political parties which in turn find them nice little rural vote banks. 

      These Khaps  have written references in Vedic text , 2500 BC , Buddhist and Panini text . This was the first attempt of humanity to live in republic formation and till that time they are in practice .  Just imagine how much challenges have been passed by these republic formation .

      These republic formation bore  the brunt of Muslim invasion and if India still has it’s old faith , major credit goes to these Khaps. Muslim wave started from Arab has the history of changing the socio political landscape of the country it pass thru,  in 100 years , take the example of any country from Arab to  border of Spain.

       


      The khap justice system is neither as rigorous as nor always consistent with the Indian legal system. Nor has it been reformed. However, given political patronage, khaps still thrive in parts of north India. One of the most controversial khap diktats is the no-same-gotra- marriage, something the youth in rural areas find quite baffling. Desperate for reform, the youth had hoped a young leader like their MP Naveen Jindal would come and change draconian rules. But he backed the khap's demand to turn no-same-gotra- marriage into a law. While shocking and disappointing to many, one can see his motivation in backing regressive ideas. It is always easier to tap into traditions and win support. It is much harder to be progressive, change thinking and still take people along. 

       I have explained why same clan marriage is considered incest in Jat community or in any Aryan community like Gujjar and Ahir.  Mixed Caste and community having dubious ancestry will not be able to comprehend it  , out of their historical and ancestral guilt they will do what is expected from a frustrated lot , malign the image of impeccable community on false charges . I really don’t know which youth you are talking about I personally never came across any lad who is finding it’s baffling. Just go to any related web page and see what the young Jats are saying , now they are talking about some “direct Action” because they feel  this is the only way left for the deaf ears .



      Fears of genetic similarities leading to offspring risks do not hold. Apparently, there are historical roots between same gotra people and hence there could be genetic similarities. Those roots may be 10 generations old, and anyone with basic knowledge of genetics and mathematics will tell you that in 10 generations, less than 0.1 per cent of DNA may be sibling-like between two offspring of the same roots. Legality is also a non-issue. Many communities have marriages between cousins, without any legal issues. 

      I would recommend  you study the findings of  Renowned DNA scientist James D Watson , who endorse the view point of avoiding marriages in the bloodline as it’s reduce the genetic diseases.

      BBC reported high number of birth related diseases in Muslim community in UK because of marriages in family.

      Another BBC report suggest high number of microcephalics-babies born in Pakistan because of genetic diseases , also linked to marriages in bloodline.

       Parsi are struggling with various genetic diseases and low potency and community has reached a level of wiped out from with in.

      Dr Praveen C Sobti, a thalassaemic expert at Dayanand Medical College and Hospital (DMCH) found that Punjabi Khatri  are more prone to congenital disease  and to overcome this now only choice they have is inter-cast marriage , because they didn’t care bloodline ,clan and as a results whole community is contaminated with disease.

      0.1 percent is one out of 10 or 10%   , the above thalassemic case  is 7.5 % of population  and crossed the signification limit. Doctors suggest  that  ideal situation is 0% gene match , might be impractical but nearer is better.

       

      I’m not able to understand  , at one place you say  that these concepts are outdated and not progressive and on  the other hand you shrug off the genetic  findings , biology and health data.

      You judge yourself , who is real progressive and who is just prejudice.



      While chances of the no-same-gotra diktat becoming a law are extremely remote, outright support of medieval traditions by modern era leaders make one shudder about which direction politicians are taking our country.

      If we leave everything  to  people like you , I tell you where our country will lead , in next 2-4 years you gays will be admiring  and supporting following cases in Indian society too , on the basis of Individual choice.

      1-April 30,2010’Dakota news” , In UK grandmother and grandson having baby together.

      2-Feb 27,2007,guardian.co.uk ,Brother and sister had 4 children together and brother is saying incest law is outdated and they should be allowed to make their personal choice.

      These are enough to suggest that we have completed the circle and have started and willing to lead a animal life.

       Jindal had earlier fought in court for every citizen's freedom to hoist the Indian flag. When a crusader for individual freedom backs a proposal preventing two human beings to be in love and make a future together, one wonders what our politicians will do to get a few extra votes. Did he make a calculation? Did the number of older people versus younger people (those who actually vote) go in favour of the older people? Is that the only criterion for making political decisions? Or is it about doing the right thing and leading the country to progress? 

      I really don’t know how did you get the impression that we young are so dumb that  we are not able to read between the lines , and will give a toss to history , ancestry  and scientific reasoning.

      Will you support marriage of brother and sister in your family in the name of individual freedom ,  if your answer is ‘No’ then you are not honest to your conviction , you also hold some concepts and tradition which you feel right . I hope you will not impose your concepts and tradition on this loving pair , being  a crusader  of  ‘individual Freedom’ even this adrift to immorality and incest.

      We live in rare times where conflict between the thought of the old and new generations is at its peak.

      Here is nothing permanent except change ,new generation will be old very soon, and this is happening since the time immemorial  , all these concepts have reached us shows ,that generations passes these from one to next , and time has tested the veracity of these.  we feel , now questions should be asked whether we want a  civilized life or animal life like freedom of gay sex, unnatural sex , sex with in immediate or extended family , live in sex…etc. and last custodian of family value “KHAP’ is under attack by corporate funded NGOs and media houses.

      We have Indian women leading global corporations. We also have Indian parents who don't want their daughters to study further. I was in Gorakhpur last week, where a young girl in a semi-rural area confessed to me that her father didn't want her to go to college unless it was within a five-kilometre radius of the house. There was no consideration for what the girl wanted to become in life. This is just one example. 

      Just compare the background  of both the ladies , a lot has been said about Bharat and India in this country  , but this India do almost nothing  to make the Bharat capable enough so that it can use his full potential . Question should be asked why there is no college with in 5 KM , why govt. and establishment not able to generate the feeling of safety and protection in the mind of father of this young girl . We just can’t discard the concerns of a father , who is very much willing to send his daughter but seems a  “trust  deficit” on part of system for safety.

      From khap rules to individual rules, India-old and India-new battle everyday. India-old is powerful: khaps wield power. However, India-new has better ideas for progress. India-old has dominated thought for the last six decades and, to put it bluntly, not achieved much. We are, despite all our missile and satellite launches, one of the poorest nations on earth. Our biggest cities don't have basics like good water and power. With such a poor report card, it is suprising India-old still makes and imposes rules. The only reason it can do so is difference in power. This is where politicians come in. 

      Where and how does Khap rules , Mr Chetan .  Do they have any home/office address , any bank account , any ‘rule’ enforcing agency . You know highest per capita income district of India , falls in Khap area “Muzaffarnagar in west UP’ happen to be 8th in the world . And this not  because of  India-new  and it’s BPO and  ITEs  but by old traditional  family labour ‘Agriculture’ . I think rest of questions  you should ask from politicians , as far KHAP (Farmers) is concerns they did more then expected by making Green revolution successful  so that India don’t bag for daily diet.

      Frankly speaking , I tried my best to make out something from your above Para , but this is more or less  jumbled up thoughts .


      Politicians have power which they can lend to India-new and back them all the way. They can take a stand, embrace progress, back individual freedom, uphold modern laws and focus on real rural issues (corruption in NREGA, for instance). This will lead to a more prosperous country and a better life for all Indians. Jindal had a chance to do that, to play a part in history, be the role model for rural Haryana's youth. However, he blew it, with his short-sightedness to remain in power. What use is power when it isn't used to help others? 


      OK, again all chatter  no substance .

      I think IITs  and similar prominent institutes of other fields are branded as the top dens of ‘India-new’.

      What is the contribution of India-new to  the society , every indian including beggars fund these institutes  like IIT , in form of taxes he pays . What is outcome , some ready to employ skilled hands for foreign and Indian MNCs.

      In last 60 years tell me a single invention from IITs , that has touched the life of common Indians , these IITs have  research centers , labs , workshops , have they produced some thing like a better hand pump  , which will take less effort & will give more water , a better bullock cart which can carry much load , a cost and quality effective water purifier for masses to save them from water born diseases , a better power alternative …list is long  , and outcome  is none.

      So why should society care about the ‘India-new’ , which has turn out to be NPA (non performing Asset)

      So This branding of “IIT”  and shining “India-new”  may means something  at US Shores ,  but  a Indian farmer may be  aware of PUSA not IIT, et al.

       

       most of  DMs and SPs of rural district are in bracket of Young , still corruption is  going on in NREGA , NGOs those are crying horse on a non issue like gotra  ,what is their report card in unearthing scam in NREGA , almost none because very soon they become cozy with the system. No NGO really wants to work in field  except initial 2-3 formative years , once they get some recognition and assurance of steady fund from some govt. department  and foreign philanthropy trust , they will look for such issues those can be handled from cozy offices ,TV studio and will help them in news and media glare.

      Individual freedom has become   favorite phrase in support of animal instinct.  Will this individual freedom will work in some moral and social framework  or this will consider every other “body”  a good for love , and every behavior driven by whim ,lust and desire will be considered a sacrosanct  expression of Individual freedom. If we are to be logically consistent we must embrace and celebrate pretty much every desire or whim that crosses anyone’s heart regarding anything.


      Meantime, pass whatever diktats and make whatever laws - none of them can take on Mother Nature, and prevent two people from falling in love. Try as much as you can. Meanwhile, i still don't know my gotra. And i hope i never find out. 

       Unfortunately it’s not mother nature that driving the thing , it’s all to create a few places like SoHo in India , particularly NCR ,  a lot of corporate funding is going on to buy shrill NGOs and media groups , just look at the coordinated way of campaign against the informal institution KHAP. All and sundry joined this campaign , with the palpable ignorance on the issue…and you have joined too.

      Following the very relevant t excerpt from one social activist.

      “The corporate agenda on the question of ‘love, sex and marriage’ has reached a point of decisive assertion. The crusaders feel confident that their past labour is going to pay dividends now or never. The war is at decisive level. They feel emboldened enough to demolish Khaps now openly and pointedly. As custodian of these values Gotra Khaps and Khaps or Bhaichara assemblies, being informal institutions of social interaction and dispute resolution with rural India, also known by many such other names, are in for an intense berating. -both as concept and practice. The shrill chorus to ban these institutions signify this assault. Simultaneously, the dare-devil campaign in favour of gay sex or unnatural sex and opening doors wide for live-in relationship, is that unmistakeable turning point the corporate capital has gained foothold on this accord through its steady and long drawn effort for the past two decades of liberalism to make it truly irretrievable.

       

       

      Opening the country to FDI and collaboration regime in the economic field from the West, corporate world needs congenial atmosphere for entertainment of western investors who revel in sexual forays as entertainment. Smooth ground is being prepared by free India with feverish speed and removing all hurdles like family norms, which British rulers had feared to tread in their times. The country is being prepared for these ‘valuable guests’ with such infrastructure in place. Is it a mere sublime coincidence that, on one hand unnatural sex and live-in relations are made acceptable to Indian mind just on the eve of Commonwealth Games and, on the other a high pitch campaign is released for banning the custodians of family ethos like Gotra Khaps in tow? You are in a hurry to ban beggars in the Capital, de-criminalising gay sex, legitimising live-in relationship and clamping ban on Khaps in the interest of corporate capital to gain fabulous profits simply because these institutions do not approve of an alien agenda!! Is it not a part of the same game plan? Pl. deny, if it is wrong.”

       

      As far your Gotra imbroglio is concern, that you have to resolve yourself  as it’s your personal issue , it’s hardly matter to anybody ,  if you know the name of your Gotra or not , or for that matter name of your father and grand father….after all it’s individual choice.



    • lr_burdak
      I don t know my own gotra. I didn t even know what gotra meant until recently. The above sentence of Chetan Bhagat pained me a lot when I read this article.
      Message 2 of 13 , Jun 8, 2010
        I don't know my own gotra. I didn't even know what gotra meant until recently.

        The above sentence of Chetan Bhagat pained me a lot when I read this article. Why he is feeling so proud on his ignorance of his own lineage. If he does not know his gotra then why should he not try to know it. Can one be an expert of Indian Society by simply writing a few novels in English. If such a person does not realize about the diversity of Indian Society it is unfortunate !!!

        Regards,

        *************
        Laxman Burdak
        *************

        --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, arvind kumar <arvindmalik_2003@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear all ,
        >  
        > This is pleasant to see that your TOI column ‘What’s Gotra What To Do With It’ is not featuring on your site under ‘columns’ and ‘blog’ where your past and present columns are available.
        > I seriously consider that you should  say sorry and  be apologies for tarnishing the image of Khap Panchayat without knowing the facts and carried away by the some far from truth , stories of ‘off the shelf’  journalists.
        > Khaps can’t demand apology from you as they are informal institution , no address , no office and no spokesperson … but they represent a culture ,  ethnicity and community.
        > We still believe that you not from the genre of ‘off the shelf’ , you are independent  voice so don’t dilute it  by writing such baseless and far from truth comments sitting in Mumbai.
        > Regards
        > Arvind Malik
        > http://www.arvindmalikblog.blogspot.com/
        >
        > --- On Sun, 5/30/10, arvind kumar arvindmalik_2003@... wrote:
        >
        >
        > From: arvind kumar arvindmalik_2003@...
        > Subject: Re: [JatHistory] What's Gotra Got To Do With It?
        > To: chetan.bhagat@..., JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
        > Cc: tavleensingh@..., nandita.sengupta@..., letters@..., paramitaghosh@..., letters@..., neha@..., letters@..., tavleen.singh@..., letters@..., rajdeep.sardesai@..., barkha@..., rajeshtripathi@..., vineet.journalist@..., sushil_gangwar@..., Manveer.Saini@..., Chetan.Bhagat@..., ronojoy.sen@..., nbtonline@..., mailerservice@..., toiblogseditor@..., toireporter@..., editor@..., info@..., kavitakrish73@...
        > Date: Sunday, May 30, 2010, 1:59 PM
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Chetan Bhagat ji , I’m not a revered writer like you still mustering the courage to reply line by line (my comments in blue) of your article .
        > You disappointed greatly because we expect clarity of thought , social awareness and sensibility some one like you, sorry to say your article is insipid ,immature and shows that you haven’t qualified to write on social issues yet,  and probably never be , because it seems you have not seen the Indian society  and don’t have any first hand experience . There is nothing wrong , we have plethora of such thinkers and sociologist around  and fiercely vocal , those have just the birds’ eye view on every social issue , long gone the days when Premchand , Sharatchand and Gurudatt..etc.  could reflect the Indian society in just few lines.
        > Knowingly or unknowing you have joined the chain of pseudo journalist engage in tarnishing the image of khap Panchayats  , like by birth we become Indian  in the  same way every  Jat is defecto member of Khap. And  this compelling reason forcing me to try to bridges some gaps transpire from your article.
        >  
        > I don't know my own gotra. I didn't even know what gotra meant until recently.
        > In what account this is a matter of pride , not able to understand. I hope ,you at least  know name of your grandfather. It’s all in lineage , if our family and we are proud of it we will be aware of it thoroughly  else family will not touch this thread and child will be ignorant. 2ndly , if we incline towards  social subject.. like history, literature this will lead to us automatically to this understanding , if we are incline towards Science subject  , our inclination towards math and science have less to do with  history and anthropology , in your case you were incline to science subject and writer by accident.
        > Many people still don't, but calling it a sub-caste is a good proxy definition.
        > Chetan ji , one thing I will admire about you that you are thoroughly honest in  showing your ignorance and that too on a national daily. Gotra a subcast , such a lame definition can be expected from a foreign journalist who is on one month tour of incredible India or from some Firangi professor teaching about  indian society in some foreign university . Their ignorance is pardonable  , but here a whole lot of writers  and social thinkers  are making   all sort of comments and definition based on sallow knowledge of matter at hand and over simplifying it that it become counter productive.
        >  
        >  I don't know why it was invented, or why it is still relevant.
        > You are right up to some extent that these were “Invented” , Brahmins they invented by the names of rishies. These Brahnmin further invented gotra for rajputs at Agnikund of Mount Abu around  1100 years back.  Gotra is the word mainly used with Brahmin terminology, different people interpret it differently. 
        > For Jats we have clan system   and  organized in 4000 different patrilineal  clans. These clans are started from some historical person , families . Over the time decedents of these person or family grown up and we have clans living in only one village and some big clans live in 70,80 villages.  Our clan is taken as gotra by all non jats those are unaware of clan system.
        > Because of these clan , this give us far rigorous social bonding and we are aware of the house and family from where the whole clan started centuries ago . The eldest member or patriarch of this house and family is known as Baba or Dada like in our family.  So whole bloodline and clan genealogy is in front  of our eyes .  If you visit house of any of these Baba , (ust 100 KM from delhi) ,you will find them among the modest household in village ,but  whole clan give respect to clan’s Baba and this is only power they have . Over the years they never let down their extended family members (clan). That’s the reason we don’t marry in clan because of this strong feeling of brotherhood/sisterhood among the clan members.
        > So there is vast difference between “Gotra” and Clan , former is just for name sake and some time use during marriage ceremonies , while Clan is family linage , not something imaginary gotra name that has no meaning today.
        > When you are saying “why it is still relevant” . I would say it is very subjective  , it’s upto individuals how much respects and affection he bestow on his family and extended family (clan) . We have cases where all children settled in US and old parents are left behind in India. So instead of being judgmental , lets leave it on the family/community members.
        > As if it wasn't good enough to divide people on caste, we needed one more level of sub-caste slicing to ensure as many Indians hate each other as possible. 
        > Nothing was created to divide and to integrate  , everything happened as a part of social evolution . So ,don’t  take these from prejudice mindset  . And level don’t ends here , level are upto individual  , even born in same family , siblings do differently  , some add the level of BE some will add MBA and they may hate each other for some or other reason  , and this give the birth of word  “sibling rivalry”  . So these individual emotions of hate , love can’t be generalize on the basis of any structure.
        >
        > However, this time it isn't being from different gotras that is a problem, it is being from the same one. Unlike inter-caste marriages that are considered problematic, the problem lies in intra-gotra marriages. These, according to some, will completely tarnish a family's reputation and pose health risks to kids of the wedded couple, due to genetic similarities. People from the same gotra aren't blood related, but marriage between them is not encouraged (read: death sentences are passed). 
        >  
        >
        >
        > Leading the 'no-same-gotra- love' T-shirt brigade are the khap panchayats. The khap system is thousands of years old, and our erstwhile British rulers lived with it and probably encouraged it, to avoid the judicial system being flooded with petty disputes and enabling these to be solved at the local level.
        > Dear Chetan , you really  don’t know history. During  and after 1857 British rulers put Khap Panchayat members under the steam rollers , hang them on nearest tree .
        > Yes , Brits as more rational people didn’t  interfere in the social custom and traditions of our community   that includes widow remarriage (so no sati system) and almost no child marriage.
        > Are issues of property , land holding , water sharing  are petty dispute ? , if any of such issue is not talked timely may start a series of murder in village .  So what are “Real” dispute , wrong parking ?  , because this is only issue urbanite face  and keep city police busy.
        > I hope you haven’t forgotten the term “ Gram Swaraj” ,  a word coined by Mahatam Ghandhi , in  recognition of the competence of the people to manage its own life according to its traditions and customs. It would have been  the real freedom for the people of india  living in ‘7-lakh Village Republics’  , instead of centrally managed beurocracy  with the help of all tools and paraphernalia by which British was ruling the masses , like  Indian Penal code  , and a replica of US,UK,Ireland constitution. 
        > “Read Death Sentences pass” : However a lot of hue and cry is being made about death sentences  but at a time when  video camera has make way to the bedroom of Governor and Swamis , no one has  produced single video clipping of panchayat delivering such sentence in broad day light in front of hundred of people.
        > The British left 63 years ago, but khaps have survived, aided by the patronage of local political parties which in turn find them nice little rural vote banks. 
        > These Khaps  have written references in Vedic text , 2500 BC , Buddhist and Panini text . This was the first attempt of humanity to live in republic formation and till that time they are in practice .  Just imagine how much challenges have been passed by these republic formation .
        > These republic formation bore  the brunt of Muslim invasion and if India still has it’s old faith , major credit goes to these Khaps. Muslim wave started from Arab has the history of changing the socio political landscape of the country it pass thru,  in 100 years , take the example of any country from Arab to  border of Spain.
        >  
        >
        > The khap justice system is neither as rigorous as nor always consistent with the Indian legal system. Nor has it been reformed. However, given political patronage, khaps still thrive in parts of north India. One of the most controversial khap diktats is the no-same-gotra- marriage, something the youth in rural areas find quite baffling. Desperate for reform, the youth had hoped a young leader like their MP Naveen Jindal would come and change draconian rules. But he backed the khap's demand to turn no-same-gotra- marriage into a law. While shocking and disappointing to many, one can see his motivation in backing regressive ideas. It is always easier to tap into traditions and win support. It is much harder to be progressive, change thinking and still take people along. 
        >  I have explained why same clan marriage is considered incest in Jat community or in any Aryan community like Gujjar and Ahir.  Mixed Caste and community having dubious ancestry will not be able to comprehend it  , out of their historical and ancestral guilt they will do what is expected from a frustrated lot , malign the image of impeccable community on false charges . I really don’t know which youth you are talking about I personally never came across any lad who is finding it’s baffling. Just go to any related web page and see what the young Jats are saying , now they are talking about some “direct Action” because they feel  this is the only way left for the deaf ears .
        >
        >
        > Fears of genetic similarities leading to offspring risks do not hold. Apparently, there are historical roots between same gotra people and hence there could be genetic similarities. Those roots may be 10 generations old, and anyone with basic knowledge of genetics and mathematics will tell you that in 10 generations, less than 0.1 per cent of DNA may be sibling-like between two offspring of the same roots. Legality is also a non-issue. Many communities have marriages between cousins, without any legal issues. 
        > I would recommend  you study the findings of  Renowned DNA scientist James D Watson , who endorse the view point of avoiding marriages in the bloodline as it’s reduce the genetic diseases.
        > BBC reported high number of birth related diseases in Muslim community in UK because of marriages in family.
        >
        > Another BBC report suggest high number of microcephalics-babies born in Pakistan because of genetic diseases , also linked to marriages in bloodline.
        >
        >  Parsi are struggling with various genetic diseases and low potency and community has reached a level of wiped out from with in.
        > Dr Praveen C Sobti, a thalassaemic expert at Dayanand Medical College and Hospital (DMCH) found that Punjabi Khatri  are more prone to congenital disease  and to overcome this now only choice they have is inter-cast marriage , because they didn’t care bloodline ,clan and as a results whole community is contaminated with disease.
        > 0.1 percent is one out of 10 or 10%   , the above thalassemic case  is 7.5 % of population  and crossed the signification limit. Doctors suggest  that  ideal situation is 0% gene match , might be impractical but nearer is better.
        >  
        > I’m not able to understand  , at one place you say  that these concepts are outdated and not progressive and on  the other hand you shrug off the genetic  findings , biology and health data.
        > You judge yourself , who is real progressive and who is just prejudice.
        >
        >
        > While chances of the no-same-gotra diktat becoming a law are extremely remote, outright support of medieval traditions by modern era leaders make one shudder about which direction politicians are taking our country.
        > If we leave everything  to  people like you , I tell you where our country will lead , in next 2-4 years you gays will be admiring  and supporting following cases in Indian society too , on the basis of Individual choice.
        > 1-April 30,2010’Dakota news” , In UK grandmother and grandson having baby together.
        > 2-Feb 27,2007,guardian.co.uk ,Brother and sister had 4 children together and brother is saying incest law is outdated and they should be allowed to make their personal choice.
        > These are enough to suggest that we have completed the circle and have started and willing to lead a animal life.
        >  Jindal had earlier fought in court for every citizen's freedom to hoist the Indian flag. When a crusader for individual freedom backs a proposal preventing two human beings to be in love and make a future together, one wonders what our politicians will do to get a few extra votes. Did he make a calculation? Did the number of older people versus younger people (those who actually vote) go in favour of the older people? Is that the only criterion for making political decisions? Or is it about doing the right thing and leading the country to progress? 
        > I really don’t know how did you get the impression that we young are so dumb that  we are not able to read between the lines , and will give a toss to history , ancestry  and scientific reasoning.
        > Will you support marriage of brother and sister in your family in the name of individual freedom ,  if your answer is ‘No’ then you are not honest to your conviction , you also hold some concepts and tradition which you feel right . I hope you will not impose your concepts and tradition on this loving pair , being  a crusader  of  ‘individual Freedom’ even this adrift to immorality and incest.
        >
        > We live in rare times where conflict between the thought of the old and new generations is at its peak.
        > Here is nothing permanent except change ,new generation will be old very soon, and this is happening since the time immemorial  , all these concepts have reached us shows ,that generations passes these from one to next , and time has tested the veracity of these.  we feel , now questions should be asked whether we want a  civilized life or animal life like freedom of gay sex, unnatural sex , sex with in immediate or extended family , live in sex…etc. and last custodian of family value “KHAP’ is under attack by corporate funded NGOs and media houses.
        > We have Indian women leading global corporations. We also have Indian parents who don't want their daughters to study further. I was in Gorakhpur last week, where a young girl in a semi-rural area confessed to me that her father didn't want her to go to college unless it was within a five-kilometre radius of the house. There was no consideration for what the girl wanted to become in life. This is just one example. 
        > Just compare the background  of both the ladies , a lot has been said about Bharat and India in this country  , but this India do almost nothing  to make the Bharat capable enough so that it can use his full potential . Question should be asked why there is no college with in 5 KM , why govt. and establishment not able to generate the feeling of safety and protection in the mind of father of this young girl . We just can’t discard the concerns of a father , who is very much willing to send his daughter but seems a  “trust  deficit” on part of system for safety.
        >
        > From khap rules to individual rules, India-old and India-new battle everyday. India-old is powerful: khaps wield power. However, India-new has better ideas for progress. India-old has dominated thought for the last six decades and, to put it bluntly, not achieved much. We are, despite all our missile and satellite launches, one of the poorest nations on earth. Our biggest cities don't have basics like good water and power. With such a poor report card, it is suprising India-old still makes and imposes rules. The only reason it can do so is difference in power. This is where politicians come in. 
        > Where and how does Khap rules , Mr Chetan .  Do they have any home/office address , any bank account , any ‘rule’ enforcing agency . You know highest per capita income district of India , falls in Khap area “Muzaffarnagar in west UP’ happen to be 8th in the world . And this not  because of  India-new  and it’s BPO and  ITEs  but by old traditional  family labour ‘Agriculture’ . I think rest of questions  you should ask from politicians , as far KHAP (Farmers) is concerns they did more then expected by making Green revolution successful  so that India don’t bag for daily diet.
        > Frankly speaking , I tried my best to make out something from your above Para , but this is more or less  jumbled up thoughts .
        >
        > Politicians have power which they can lend to India-new and back them all the way. They can take a stand, embrace progress, back individual freedom, uphold modern laws and focus on real rural issues (corruption in NREGA, for instance). This will lead to a more prosperous country and a better life for all Indians. Jindal had a chance to do that, to play a part in history, be the role model for rural Haryana's youth. However, he blew it, with his short-sightedness to remain in power. What use is power when it isn't used to help others? 
        >
        > OK, again all chatter  no substance .
        > I think IITs  and similar prominent institutes of other fields are branded as the top dens of ‘India-new’.
        > What is the contribution of India-new to  the society , every indian including beggars fund these institutes  like IIT , in form of taxes he pays . What is outcome , some ready to employ skilled hands for foreign and Indian MNCs.
        > In last 60 years tell me a single invention from IITs , that has touched the life of common Indians , these IITs have  research centers , labs , workshops , have they produced some thing like a better hand pump  , which will take less effort & will give more water , a better bullock cart which can carry much load , a cost and quality effective water purifier for masses to save them from water born diseases , a better power alternative …list is long  , and outcome  is none.
        > So why should society care about the ‘India-new’ , which has turn out to be NPA (non performing Asset)
        > So This branding of “IIT”  and shining “India-new”  may means something  at US Shores ,  but  a Indian farmer may be  aware of PUSA not IIT, et al.
        >  
        >  most of  DMs and SPs of rural district are in bracket of Young , still corruption is  going on in NREGA , NGOs those are crying horse on a non issue like gotra  ,what is their report card in unearthing scam in NREGA , almost none because very soon they become cozy with the system. No NGO really wants to work in field  except initial 2-3 formative years , once they get some recognition and assurance of steady fund from some govt. department  and foreign philanthropy trust , they will look for such issues those can be handled from cozy offices ,TV studio and will help them in news and media glare.
        > Individual freedom has become   favorite phrase in support of animal instinct.  Will this individual freedom will work in some moral and social framework  or this will consider every other “body”  a good for love , and every behavior driven by whim ,lust and desire will be considered a sacrosanct  expression of Individual freedom. If we are to be logically consistent we must embrace and celebrate pretty much every desire or whim that crosses anyone’s heart regarding anything.
        >
        > Meantime, pass whatever diktats and make whatever laws - none of them can take on Mother Nature, and prevent two people from falling in love. Try as much as you can. Meanwhile, i still don't know my gotra. And i hope i never find out. 
        >  Unfortunately it’s not mother nature that driving the thing , it’s all to create a few places like SoHo in India , particularly NCR ,  a lot of corporate funding is going on to buy shrill NGOs and media groups , just look at the coordinated way of campaign against the informal institution KHAP. All and sundry joined this campaign , with the palpable ignorance on the issue…and you have joined too.
        > Following the very relevant t excerpt from one social activist.
        > “The corporate agenda on the question of ‘love, sex and marriage’ has reached a point of decisive assertion. The crusaders feel confident that their past labour is going to pay dividends now or never. The war is at decisive level. They feel emboldened enough to demolish Khaps now openly and pointedly. As custodian of these values Gotra Khaps and Khaps or Bhaichara assemblies, being informal institutions of social interaction and dispute resolution with rural India, also known by many such other names, are in for an intense berating. -both as concept and practice. The shrill chorus to ban these institutions signify this assault. Simultaneously, the dare-devil campaign in favour of gay sex or unnatural sex and opening doors wide for live-in relationship, is that unmistakeable turning point the corporate capital has gained foothold on this accord through its steady and long drawn effort for the past two decades of liberalism to make it truly
        > irretrievable.
        >  
        >  
        > Opening the country to FDI and collaboration regime in the economic field from the West, corporate world needs congenial atmosphere for entertainment of western investors who revel in sexual forays as entertainment. Smooth ground is being prepared by free India with feverish speed and removing all hurdles like family norms, which British rulers had feared to tread in their times. The country is being prepared for these ‘valuable guests’ with such infrastructure in place. Is it a mere sublime coincidence that, on one hand unnatural sex and live-in relations are made acceptable to Indian mind just on the eve of Commonwealth Games and, on the other a high pitch campaign is released for banning the custodians of family ethos like Gotra Khaps in tow? You are in a hurry to ban beggars in the Capital, de-criminalising gay sex, legitimising live-in relationship and clamping ban on Khaps in the interest of corporate capital to gain fabulous profits simply
        > because these institutions do not approve of an alien agenda!! Is it not a part of the same game plan? Pl. deny, if it is wrong.”
        >  
        >
        > As far your Gotra imbroglio is concern, that you have to resolve yourself  as it’s your personal issue , it’s hardly matter to anybody ,  if you know the name of your Gotra or not , or for that matter name of your father and grand father….after all it’s individual choice.
        > At last I will take the opportunity to clear a few points.
        > Bloodline make the clan members brother and sister , and we have our bloodline and clan linage very clear , so same clan marriage is  unacceptable in  Jat communities .
        > For us we have options lined up
        > (1)    Easiest way is to accommodate the tradition of the  community ,  4 -5 Crore in numbers , in the Hindu Marriage act . HMA also acknowledge “Custom and usage signify any rule which having been continuously and uniformly observed for a long time ,has obtained the force of law among Hindus in any local area , tribe ,community, group of family.”   ( WE are proposing amendment for Jats only , we are not concerned  in what custom other communities indulge in)
        > (2)    Next option is , We are ready to severe our association with Hindu religion , we were always on the fringe and were loggerhead with the puranic/Bhrahmenical  mindset . We never bow down  to rigid and inhumane practices ,  massacre of Buddhists  in the name of religion , sacrifice of animals , ritual on the basis of false purans , Sati … list is long . On the contrary we observes widow marriage . All these things kept us on the fringe of Hindu religion and were never a complete Hindu.
        >        So if people will keep on imposing us the custom of Hindus , under the disguise of Hindu   marriage act . We should call us ourselves non-Hindu  , and demand  our right as minority religion , like Sikh  & Muslim.
        > (3)    Finally , In the case of continuous  oppression  by the hand of these Hindus , in their pursuit of creating a homogenous religion and  from state who don’t want to acknowledge our ethnic  identity and culture and want to force the  constitutional clause of marriage , those are against the belief and ethos of our community. We should approach the UN and other world bodies and raise the issue that  in Indian state our ethnic community’s culture and tradition is not safe and not being protected and we are facing  soft ethnic cleansing,  so  need a separate homeland , like Kurd are demanding in Iraq and Turkey , Jews got Israel .
        >  
        >   Indian subcontinent is the house of may nations and ethnic groups  . These groups have their own customs ,  tradition  , way of life and they put more loyalties and pride in their ethnicity then their religion and nationality.
        > We have seen the example of Pakistan , who tried to create a homogenous society in the name of ISLAM and with the slogans “Hum sab musalman hain” ,hoping that religion will be the glue to keep the different ethnicity together even without a cumbersome  democracy. First causality was in the form of  Bangladesh ,  Bengoli ethnicity came out of Islamic glue ,when their  tradition and culture was ridiculed and humiliated by the powerful Punjabi  ethnicity , it was a loss for Pakistan and setback for Muslim ummat.
        > To day in Pakistan , there is very visible divide on ethnic lines , Baloch are all out for freedom and it can happen at any time , Sindhi , Mohajir , Hazara , Pakhtun , Pathan and Punjabi  ethnicity are suspicious with each other . So, it’s clear in this  subcontinent  Ethnic  affiliation is far more emotional issue and people has very clear priority ,ethnicity comes on top of priority compare to religion and nationality .
        > USSR  broke into numerous countries formed basically on ethnic basis , so monolithic and homogenous society  created by the name of nationality can’t survive too.
        >   We can change  our faith in two minutes  ,can change our nationality in manageable time ,  but never our ethnic linage.
        > Hope this will make you little more wiser , NOW , people like you should think , in which way you want us to  behave  and pursue the option . Compromising on our ethnic identity and it’s institution is unacceptable to every young Jat.
        >  
        >
      • s.s. rana
        Laxman ji has rightly underlined the place of gotra in thelife of certain communities. India is a country of diversities. It is a country where pluraliity is
        Message 3 of 13 , Jun 9, 2010
          Laxman ji has rightly underlined the place of gotra in thelife of certain communities. India is a country of diversities. It is a country where pluraliity is the real living spetrum. But the broader picture is divided into two well identified worlds, viz. the rural and urban worlds, each very different in many ways from the other. The latter, a congomeration of fragmented souls takes pride in labeling itself modern and progressive on the basis of parameters which are superficial and mundane leading to a anonymous individualistic way of life where happiness is a wild goose chase. tThe former on the other hand is a  interdependant emotionally stable and happy society drawing its strenghth from custom and tradition though not averse to the use of technology available any where.Such communities lay great emphasis on their way of life proved since centuries. Social interaction and matrimony are the important areas which set the pattern of life. No wonder then that such rural communities accept and practice voluntarily, for mutual benefit certain code in these areas of their life.Gotra is just one of the parameters among the prohibitions in matrimonial alliances. different cultural or social groups have their own set of such prohibitions which have been observed to enjoy the environment. There is vast amunt of ignorance on the part of the urban bred on such practices and their neceesity.One can only pity such people for their very narrow vision.
          Dr. S,S. Rana    

          --- On Tue, 8/6/10, lr_burdak <lr_burdak@...> wrote:

          From: lr_burdak <lr_burdak@...>
          Subject: [JatHistory] Re: What's Gotra Got To Do With It?
          To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Tuesday, 8 June, 2010, 8:48 PM

           
          I don't know my own gotra. I didn't even know what gotra meant until recently.

          The above sentence of Chetan Bhagat pained me a lot when I read this article. Why he is feeling so proud on his ignorance of his own lineage. If he does not know his gotra then why should he not try to know it. Can one be an expert of Indian Society by simply writing a few novels in English. If such a person does not realize about the diversity of Indian Society it is unfortunate !!!

          Regards,

          ************ *
          Laxman Burdak
          ************ *

          --- In JatHistory@yahoogro ups.com, arvind kumar <arvindmalik_ 2003@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear all ,
          >  
          > This is pleasant to see that your TOI column ‘What’s Gotra What To Do With It’ is not featuring on your site under ‘columns’ and ‘blog’ where your past and present columns are available.
          > I seriously consider that you should  say sorry and  be apologies for tarnishing the image of Khap Panchayat without knowing the facts and carried away by the some far from truth , stories of ‘off the shelf’  journalists.
          > Khaps can’t demand apology from you as they are informal institution , no address , no office and no spokesperson … but they represent a culture ,  ethnicity and community.
          > We still believe that you not from the genre of ‘off the shelf’ , you are independent  voice so don’t dilute it  by writing such baseless and far from truth comments sitting in Mumbai.
          > Regards
          > Arvind Malik
          > http://www.arvindma likblog.blogspot .com/
          >
          > --- On Sun, 5/30/10, arvind kumar arvindmalik_ 2003@... wrote:
          >
          >
          > From: arvind kumar arvindmalik_ 2003@...
          > Subject: Re: [JatHistory] What's Gotra Got To Do With It?
          > To: chetan.bhagat@ ..., JatHistory@yahoogro ups.com
          > Cc: tavleensingh@ ..., nandita.sengupta@ ..., letters@..., paramitaghosh@ ..., letters@..., neha@..., letters@..., tavleen.singh@ ..., letters@..., rajdeep.sardesai@ ..., barkha@..., rajeshtripathi@ ..., vineet.journalist@ ..., sushil_gangwar@ ..., Manveer.Saini@ ..., Chetan.Bhagat@ ..., ronojoy.sen@ ..., nbtonline@.. ., mailerservice@ ..., toiblogseditor@ ..., toireporter@ ..., editor@..., info@..., kavitakrish73@ ...
          > Date: Sunday, May 30, 2010, 1:59 PM
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Chetan Bhagat ji , I’m not a revered writer like you still mustering the courage to reply line by line (my comments in blue) of your article .
          > You disappointed greatly because we expect clarity of thought , social awareness and sensibility some one like you, sorry to say your article is insipid ,immature and shows that you haven’t qualified to write on social issues yet,  and probably never be , because it seems you have not seen the Indian society  and don’t have any first hand experience . There is nothing wrong , we have plethora of such thinkers and sociologist around  and fiercely vocal , those have just the birds’ eye view on every social issue , long gone the days when Premchand , Sharatchand and Gurudatt..etc.  could reflect the Indian society in just few lines.
          > Knowingly or unknowing you have joined the chain of pseudo journalist engage in tarnishing the image of khap Panchayats  , like by birth we become Indian  in the  same way every  Jat is defecto member of Khap. And  this compelling reason forcing me to try to bridges some gaps transpire from your article.
          >  
          > I don't know my own gotra. I didn't even know what gotra meant until recently.
          > In what account this is a matter of pride , not able to understand. I hope ,you at least  know name of your grandfather. It’s all in lineage , if our family and we are proud of it we will be aware of it thoroughly  else family will not touch this thread and child will be ignorant. 2ndly , if we incline towards  social subject.. like history, literature this will lead to us automatically to this understanding , if we are incline towards Science subject  , our inclination towards math and science have less to do with  history and anthropology , in your case you were incline to science subject and writer by accident.
          > Many people still don't, but calling it a sub-caste is a good proxy definition.
          > Chetan ji , one thing I will admire about you that you are thoroughly honest in  showing your ignorance and that too on a national daily. Gotra a subcast , such a lame definition can be expected from a foreign journalist who is on one month tour of incredible India or from some Firangi professor teaching about  indian society in some foreign university . Their ignorance is pardonable  , but here a whole lot of writers  and social thinkers  are making   all sort of comments and definition based on sallow knowledge of matter at hand and over simplifying it that it become counter productive.
          >  
          >  I don't know why it was invented, or why it is still relevant.
          > You are right up to some extent that these were “Invented� , Brahmins they invented by the names of rishies. These Brahnmin further invented gotra for rajputs at Agnikund of Mount Abu around  1100 years back.  Gotra is the word mainly used with Brahmin terminology, different people interpret it differently. 
          > For Jats we have clan system   and  organized in 4000 different patrilineal  clans. These clans are started from some historical person , families . Over the time decedents of these person or family grown up and we have clans living in only one village and some big clans live in 70,80 villages.  Our clan is taken as gotra by all non jats those are unaware of clan system.
          > Because of these clan , this give us far rigorous social bonding and we are aware of the house and family from where the whole clan started centuries ago . The eldest member or patriarch of this house and family is known as Baba or Dada like in our family.  So whole bloodline and clan genealogy is in front  of our eyes .  If you visit house of any of these Baba , (ust 100 KM from delhi) ,you will find them among the modest household in village ,but  whole clan give respect to clan’s Baba and this is only power they have . Over the years they never let down their extended family members (clan). That’s the reason we don’t marry in clan because of this strong feeling of brotherhood/ sisterhood among the clan members.
          > So there is vast difference between “Gotra� and Clan , former is just for name sake and some time use during marriage ceremonies , while Clan is family linage , not something imaginary gotra name that has no meaning today.
          > When you are saying “why it is still relevant� . I would say it is very subjective  , it’s upto individuals how much respects and affection he bestow on his family and extended family (clan) . We have cases where all children settled in US and old parents are left behind in India. So instead of being judgmental , lets leave it on the family/community members.
          > As if it wasn't good enough to divide people on caste, we needed one more level of sub-caste slicing to ensure as many Indians hate each other as possible. 
          > Nothing was created to divide and to integrate  , everything happened as a part of social evolution . So ,don’t  take these from prejudice mindset  . And level don’t ends here , level are upto individual  , even born in same family , siblings do differently  , some add the level of BE some will add MBA and they may hate each other for some or other reason  , and this give the birth of word  “sibling rivalry�  . So these individual emotions of hate , love can’t be generalize on the basis of any structure.
          >
          > However, this time it isn't being from different gotras that is a problem, it is being from the same one. Unlike inter-caste marriages that are considered problematic, the problem lies in intra-gotra marriages. These, according to some, will completely tarnish a family's reputation and pose health risks to kids of the wedded couple, due to genetic similarities. People from the same gotra aren't blood related, but marriage between them is not encouraged (read: death sentences are passed). 
          >  
          >
          >
          > Leading the 'no-same-gotra- love' T-shirt brigade are the khap panchayats. The khap system is thousands of years old, and our erstwhile British rulers lived with it and probably encouraged it, to avoid the judicial system being flooded with petty disputes and enabling these to be solved at the local level.
          > Dear Chetan , you really  don’t know history. During  and after 1857 British rulers put Khap Panchayat members under the steam rollers , hang them on nearest tree .
          > Yes , Brits as more rational people didn’t  interfere in the social custom and traditions of our community   that includes widow remarriage (so no sati system) and almost no child marriage.
          > Are issues of property , land holding , water sharing  are petty dispute ? , if any of such issue is not talked timely may start a series of murder in village .  So what are “Real� dispute , wrong parking ?  , because this is only issue urbanite face  and keep city police busy.
          > I hope you haven’t forgotten the term “ Gram Swaraj� ,  a word coined by Mahatam Ghandhi , in  recognition of the competence of the people to manage its own life according to its traditions and customs. It would have been  the real freedom for the people of india  living in ‘7-lakh Village Republics’  , instead of centrally managed beurocracy  with the help of all tools and paraphernalia by which British was ruling the masses , like  Indian Penal code  , and a replica of US,UK,Ireland constitution. 
          > “Read Death Sentences pass� : However a lot of hue and cry is being made about death sentences  but at a time when  video camera has make way to the bedroom of Governor and Swamis , no one has  produced single video clipping of panchayat delivering such sentence in broad day light in front of hundred of people.
          > The British left 63 years ago, but khaps have survived, aided by the patronage of local political parties which in turn find them nice little rural vote banks. 
          > These Khaps  have written references in Vedic text , 2500 BC , Buddhist and Panini text . This was the first attempt of humanity to live in republic formation and till that time they are in practice .  Just imagine how much challenges have been passed by these republic formation .
          > These republic formation bore  the brunt of Muslim invasion and if India still has it’s old faith , major credit goes to these Khaps. Muslim wave started from Arab has the history of changing the socio political landscape of the country it pass thru,  in 100 years , take the example of any country from Arab to  border of Spain.
          >  
          >
          > The khap justice system is neither as rigorous as nor always consistent with the Indian legal system. Nor has it been reformed. However, given political patronage, khaps still thrive in parts of north India. One of the most controversial khap diktats is the no-same-gotra- marriage, something the youth in rural areas find quite baffling. Desperate for reform, the youth had hoped a young leader like their MP Naveen Jindal would come and change draconian rules. But he backed the khap's demand to turn no-same-gotra- marriage into a law. While shocking and disappointing to many, one can see his motivation in backing regressive ideas. It is always easier to tap into traditions and win support. It is much harder to be progressive, change thinking and still take people along. 
          >  I have explained why same clan marriage is considered incest in Jat community or in any Aryan community like Gujjar and Ahir.  Mixed Caste and community having dubious ancestry will not be able to comprehend it  , out of their historical and ancestral guilt they will do what is expected from a frustrated lot , malign the image of impeccable community on false charges . I really don’t know which youth you are talking about I personally never came across any lad who is finding it’s baffling. Just go to any related web page and see what the young Jats are saying , now they are talking about some “direct Action� because they feel  this is the only way left for the deaf ears .
          >
          >
          > Fears of genetic similarities leading to offspring risks do not hold. Apparently, there are historical roots between same gotra people and hence there could be genetic similarities. Those roots may be 10 generations old, and anyone with basic knowledge of genetics and mathematics will tell you that in 10 generations, less than 0.1 per cent of DNA may be sibling-like between two offspring of the same roots. Legality is also a non-issue. Many communities have marriages between cousins, without any legal issues. 
          > I would recommend  you study the findings of  Renowned DNA scientist James D Watson , who endorse the view point of avoiding marriages in the bloodline as it’s reduce the genetic diseases.
          > BBC reported high number of birth related diseases in Muslim community in UK because of marriages in family.
          >
          > Another BBC report suggest high number of microcephalics- babies born in Pakistan because of genetic diseases , also linked to marriages in bloodline.
          >
          >  Parsi are struggling with various genetic diseases and low potency and community has reached a level of wiped out from with in.
          > Dr Praveen C Sobti, a thalassaemic expert at Dayanand Medical College and Hospital (DMCH) found that Punjabi Khatri  are more prone to congenital disease  and to overcome this now only choice they have is inter-cast marriage , because they didn’t care bloodline ,clan and as a results whole community is contaminated with disease.
          > 0.1 percent is one out of 10 or 10%   , the above thalassemic case  is 7.5 % of population  and crossed the signification limit. Doctors suggest  that  ideal situation is 0% gene match , might be impractical but nearer is better.
          >  
          > I’m not able to understand  , at one place you say  that these concepts are outdated and not progressive and on  the other hand you shrug off the genetic  findings , biology and health data.
          > You judge yourself , who is real progressive and who is just prejudice.
          >
          >
          > While chances of the no-same-gotra diktat becoming a law are extremely remote, outright support of medieval traditions by modern era leaders make one shudder about which direction politicians are taking our country.
          > If we leave everything  to  people like you , I tell you where our country will lead , in next 2-4 years you gays will be admiring  and supporting following cases in Indian society too , on the basis of Individual choice.
          > 1-April 30,2010’Dakota news� , In UK grandmother and grandson having baby together.
          > 2-Feb 27,2007,guardian. co.uk ,Brother and sister had 4 children together and brother is saying incest law is outdated and they should be allowed to make their personal choice.
          > These are enough to suggest that we have completed the circle and have started and willing to lead a animal life.
          >  Jindal had earlier fought in court for every citizen's freedom to hoist the Indian flag. When a crusader for individual freedom backs a proposal preventing two human beings to be in love and make a future together, one wonders what our politicians will do to get a few extra votes. Did he make a calculation? Did the number of older people versus younger people (those who actually vote) go in favour of the older people? Is that the only criterion for making political decisions? Or is it about doing the right thing and leading the country to progress? 
          > I really don’t know how did you get the impression that we young are so dumb that  we are not able to read between the lines , and will give a toss to history , ancestry  and scientific reasoning.
          > Will you support marriage of brother and sister in your family in the name of individual freedom ,  if your answer is ‘No’ then you are not honest to your conviction , you also hold some concepts and tradition which you feel right . I hope you will not impose your concepts and tradition on this loving pair , being  a crusader  of  ‘individual Freedom’ even this adrift to immorality and incest.
          >
          > We live in rare times where conflict between the thought of the old and new generations is at its peak.
          > Here is nothing permanent except change ,new generation will be old very soon, and this is happening since the time immemorial  , all these concepts have reached us shows ,that generations passes these from one to next , and time has tested the veracity of these.  we feel , now questions should be asked whether we want a  civilized life or animal life like freedom of gay sex, unnatural sex , sex with in immediate or extended family , live in sex…etc. and last custodian of family value “KHAP’ is under attack by corporate funded NGOs and media houses.
          > We have Indian women leading global corporations. We also have Indian parents who don't want their daughters to study further. I was in Gorakhpur last week, where a young girl in a semi-rural area confessed to me that her father didn't want her to go to college unless it was within a five-kilometre radius of the house. There was no consideration for what the girl wanted to become in life. This is just one example. 
          > Just compare the background  of both the ladies , a lot has been said about Bharat and India in this country  , but this India do almost nothing  to make the Bharat capable enough so that it can use his full potential . Question should be asked why there is no college with in 5 KM , why govt. and establishment not able to generate the feeling of safety and protection in the mind of father of this young girl . We just can’t discard the concerns of a father , who is very much willing to send his daughter but seems a  “trust  deficit� on part of system for safety.
          >
          > From khap rules to individual rules, India-old and India-new battle everyday. India-old is powerful: khaps wield power. However, India-new has better ideas for progress. India-old has dominated thought for the last six decades and, to put it bluntly, not achieved much. We are, despite all our missile and satellite launches, one of the poorest nations on earth. Our biggest cities don't have basics like good water and power. With such a poor report card, it is suprising India-old still makes and imposes rules. The only reason it can do so is difference in power. This is where politicians come in. 
          > Where and how does Khap rules , Mr Chetan .  Do they have any home/office address , any bank account , any ‘rule’ enforcing agency . You know highest per capita income district of India , falls in Khap area “Muzaffarnagar in west UP’ happen to be 8th in the world . And this not  because of  India-new  and it’s BPO and  ITEs  but by old traditional  family labour ‘Agriculture’ . I think rest of questions  you should ask from politicians , as far KHAP (Farmers) is concerns they did more then expected by making Green revolution successful  so that India don’t bag for daily diet.
          > Frankly speaking , I tried my best to make out something from your above Para , but this is more or less  jumbled up thoughts .
          >
          > Politicians have power which they can lend to India-new and back them all the way. They can take a stand, embrace progress, back individual freedom, uphold modern laws and focus on real rural issues (corruption in NREGA, for instance). This will lead to a more prosperous country and a better life for all Indians. Jindal had a chance to do that, to play a part in history, be the role model for rural Haryana's youth. However, he blew it, with his short-sightedness to remain in power. What use is power when it isn't used to help others? 
          >
          > OK, again all chatter  no substance .
          > I think IITs  and similar prominent institutes of other fields are branded as the top dens of ‘India-new’.
          > What is the contribution of India-new to  the society , every indian including beggars fund these institutes  like IIT , in form of taxes he pays . What is outcome , some ready to employ skilled hands for foreign and Indian MNCs.
          > In last 60 years tell me a single invention from IITs , that has touched the life of common Indians , these IITs have  research centers , labs , workshops , have they produced some thing like a better hand pump  , which will take less effort & will give more water , a better bullock cart which can carry much load , a cost and quality effective water purifier for masses to save them from water born diseases , a better power alternative …list is long  , and outcome  is none.
          > So why should society care about the ‘India-new’ , which has turn out to be NPA (non performing Asset)
          > So This branding of “IIT�  and shining “India-new�  may means something  at US Shores ,  but  a Indian farmer may be  aware of PUSA not IIT, et al.
          >  
          >  most of  DMs and SPs of rural district are in bracket of Young , still corruption is  going on in NREGA , NGOs those are crying horse on a non issue like gotra  ,what is their report card in unearthing scam in NREGA , almost none because very soon they become cozy with the system. No NGO really wants to work in field  except initial 2-3 formative years , once they get some recognition and assurance of steady fund from some govt. department  and foreign philanthropy trust , they will look for such issues those can be handled from cozy offices ,TV studio and will help them in news and media glare.
          > Individual freedom has become   favorite phrase in support of animal instinct.  Will this individual freedom will work in some moral and social framework  or this will consider every other “body�  a good for love , and every behavior driven by whim ,lust and desire will be considered a sacrosanct  expression of Individual freedom. If we are to be logically consistent we must embrace and celebrate pretty much every desire or whim that crosses anyone’s heart regarding anything.
          >
          > Meantime, pass whatever diktats and make whatever laws - none of them can take on Mother Nature, and prevent two people from falling in love. Try as much as you can. Meanwhile, i still don't know my gotra. And i hope i never find out. 
          >  Unfortunately it’s not mother nature that driving the thing , it’s all to create a few places like SoHo in India , particularly NCR ,  a lot of corporate funding is going on to buy shrill NGOs and media groups , just look at the coordinated way of campaign against the informal institution KHAP. All and sundry joined this campaign , with the palpable ignorance on the issue…and you have joined too.
          > Following the very relevant t excerpt from one social activist.
          > “The corporate agenda on the question of ‘love, sex and marriage’ has reached a point of decisive assertion. The crusaders feel confident that their past labour is going to pay dividends now or never. The war is at decisive level. They feel emboldened enough to demolish Khaps now openly and pointedly. As custodian of these values Gotra Khaps and Khaps or Bhaichara assemblies, being informal institutions of social interaction and dispute resolution with rural India, also known by many such other names, are in for an intense berating. -both as concept and practice. The shrill chorus to ban these institutions signify this assault. Simultaneously, the dare-devil campaign in favour of gay sex or unnatural sex and opening doors wide for live-in relationship, is that unmistakeable turning point the corporate capital has gained foothold on this accord through its steady and long drawn effort for the past two decades of liberalism to make it truly
          > irretrievable.
          >  
          >  
          > Opening the country to FDI and collaboration regime in the economic field from the West, corporate world needs congenial atmosphere for entertainment of western investors who revel in sexual forays as entertainment. Smooth ground is being prepared by free India with feverish speed and removing all hurdles like family norms, which British rulers had feared to tread in their times. The country is being prepared for these ‘valuable guests’ with such infrastructure in place. Is it a mere sublime coincidence that, on one hand unnatural sex and live-in relations are made acceptable to Indian mind just on the eve of Commonwealth Games and, on the other a high pitch campaign is released for banning the custodians of family ethos like Gotra Khaps in tow? You are in a hurry to ban beggars in the Capital, de-criminalising gay sex, legitimising live-in relationship and clamping ban on Khaps in the interest of corporate capital to gain fabulous profits simply
          > because these institutions do not approve of an alien agenda!! Is it not a part of the same game plan? Pl. deny, if it is wrong.�
          >  
          >
          > As far your Gotra imbroglio is concern, that you have to resolve yourself  as it’s your personal issue , it’s hardly matter to anybody ,  if you know the name of your Gotra or not , or for that matter name of your father and grand father….after all it’s individual choice.
          > At last I will take the opportunity to clear a few points.
          > Bloodline make the clan members brother and sister , and we have our bloodline and clan linage very clear , so same clan marriage is  unacceptable in  Jat communities .
          > For us we have options lined up
          > (1)    Easiest way is to accommodate the tradition of the  community ,  4 -5 Crore in numbers , in the Hindu Marriage act . HMA also acknowledge “Custom and usage signify any rule which having been continuously and uniformly observed for a long time ,has obtained the force of law among Hindus in any local area , tribe ,community, group of family.�   ( WE are proposing amendment for Jats only , we are not concerned  in what custom other communities indulge in)
          > (2)    Next option is , We are ready to severe our association with Hindu religion , we were always on the fringe and were loggerhead with the puranic/Bhrahmenica l  mindset . We never bow down  to rigid and inhumane practices ,  massacre of Buddhists  in the name of religion , sacrifice of animals , ritual on the basis of false purans , Sati … list is long . On the contrary we observes widow marriage . All these things kept us on the fringe of Hindu religion and were never a complete Hindu.
          >        So if people will keep on imposing us the custom of Hindus , under the disguise of Hindu   marriage act . We should call us ourselves non-Hindu  , and demand  our right as minority religion , like Sikh  & Muslim.
          > (3)    Finally , In the case of continuous  oppression  by the hand of these Hindus , in their pursuit of creating a homogenous religion and  from state who don’t want to acknowledge our ethnic  identity and culture and want to force the  constitutional clause of marriage , those are against the belief and ethos of our community. We should approach the UN and other world bodies and raise the issue that  in Indian state our ethnic community’s culture and tradition is not safe and not being protected and we are facing  soft ethnic cleansing,  so  need a separate homeland , like Kurd are demanding in Iraq and Turkey , Jews got Israel .
          >  
          >   Indian subcontinent is the house of may nations and ethnic groups  . These groups have their own customs ,  tradition  , way of life and they put more loyalties and pride in their ethnicity then their religion and nationality.
          > We have seen the example of Pakistan , who tried to create a homogenous society in the name of ISLAM and with the slogans “Hum sab musalman hain� ,hoping that religion will be the glue to keep the different ethnicity together even without a cumbersome  democracy. First causality was in the form of  Bangladesh ,  Bengoli ethnicity came out of Islamic glue ,when their  tradition and culture was ridiculed and humiliated by the powerful Punjabi  ethnicity , it was a loss for Pakistan and setback for Muslim ummat.
          > To day in Pakistan , there is very visible divide on ethnic lines , Baloch are all out for freedom and it can happen at any time , Sindhi , Mohajir , Hazara , Pakhtun , Pathan and Punjabi  ethnicity are suspicious with each other . So, it’s clear in this  subcontinent  Ethnic  affiliation is far more emotional issue and people has very clear priority ,ethnicity comes on top of priority compare to religion and nationality .
          > USSR  broke into numerous countries formed basically on ethnic basis , so monolithic and homogenous society  created by the name of nationality can’t survive too.
          >   We can change  our faith in two minutes  ,can change our nationality in manageable time ,  but never our ethnic linage.
          > Hope this will make you little more wiser , NOW , people like you should think , in which way you want us to  behave  and pursue the option . Compromising on our ethnic identity and it’s institution is unacceptable to every young Jat.
          >  
          >

        • Ajay Singh
          Bhagat is a Khatri last name and at anytime of his or his family marriage he must avoided some gotra(read any newspaper). Malik bhai, since the birth of new
          Message 4 of 13 , Jun 14, 2010
            Bhagat is a Khatri last name and at anytime of his or his family marriage he must avoided some gotra(read any newspaper). Malik bhai, since the birth of new brahminsim 1000 yeras back, all the so self claimed forward caste just focused on money and purely money. Rajputs flourished because they supported muslim invaders excpet few and copied their tax colletion system and sucked the poor Jat farmers, Brahmins copied the British and now Banias aping the american system of suck the blood of common man in the name of market economy. Even if you try to educate them, their pure focus is to finish "Khaps" so that Jat power can be reduced to dust and Jats can be easily enslaved like in the past. All media is hitting by  using "Jat" name everywhere. They never mentioned that lalit modi a bania with 2 marriages and all bania's fruad very well etc.. They never highlight the caste of Rajput, Khatri, Bania or Bahman but always try to project jat in bad name

            On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 6:18 AM, s.s. rana <drssrana2003@...> wrote:
             

            Laxman ji has rightly underlined the place of gotra in thelife of certain communities. India is a country of diversities. It is a country where pluraliity is the real living spetrum. But the broader picture is divided into two well identified worlds, viz. the rural and urban worlds, each very different in many ways from the other. The latter, a congomeration of fragmented souls takes pride in labeling itself modern and progressive on the basis of parameters which are superficial and mundane leading to a anonymous individualistic way of life where happiness is a wild goose chase. tThe former on the other hand is a  interdependant emotionally stable and happy society drawing its strenghth from custom and tradition though not averse to the use of technology available any where.Such communities lay great emphasis on their way of life proved since centuries. Social interaction and matrimony are the important areas which set the pattern of life. No wonder then that such rural communities accept and practice voluntarily, for mutual benefit certain code in these areas of their life.Gotra is just one of the parameters among the prohibitions in matrimonial alliances. different cultural or social groups have their own set of such prohibitions which have been observed to enjoy the environment. There is vast amunt of ignorance on the part of the urban bred on such practices and their neceesity.One can only pity such people for their very narrow vision.
            Dr. S,S. Rana    

            --- On Tue, 8/6/10, lr_burdak <lr_burdak@...> wrote:

            From: lr_burdak <lr_burdak@...>
            Subject: [JatHistory] Re: What's Gotra Got To Do With It?
            To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Tuesday, 8 June, 2010, 8:48 PM

             
            I don't know my own gotra. I didn't even know what gotra meant until recently.

            The above sentence of Chetan Bhagat pained me a lot when I read this article. Why he is feeling so proud on his ignorance of his own lineage. If he does not know his gotra then why should he not try to know it. Can one be an expert of Indian Society by simply writing a few novels in English. If such a person does not realize about the diversity of Indian Society it is unfortunate !!!

            Regards,

            ************ *
            Laxman Burdak
            ************ *

            --- In JatHistory@yahoogro ups.com, arvind kumar <arvindmalik_ 2003@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear all ,
            >  
            > This is pleasant to see that your TOI column ‘What’s Gotra What To Do With It’ is not featuring on your site under ‘columns’ and ‘blog’ where your past and present columns are available.
            > I seriously consider that you should  say sorry and  be apologies for tarnishing the image of Khap Panchayat without knowing the facts and carried away by the some far from truth , stories of ‘off the shelf’  journalists.
            > Khaps can’t demand apology from you as they are informal institution , no address , no office and no spokesperson … but they represent a culture ,  ethnicity and community.
            > We still believe that you not from the genre of ‘off the shelf’ , you are independent  voice so don’t dilute it  by writing such baseless and far from truth comments sitting in Mumbai.
            > Regards
            > Arvind Malik
            > http://www.arvindma likblog.blogspot .com/

            >
            > --- On Sun, 5/30/10, arvind kumar arvindmalik_ 2003@... wrote:
            >
            >
            > From: arvind kumar arvindmalik_ 2003@...
            > Subject: Re: [JatHistory] What's Gotra Got To Do With It?
            > To: chetan.bhagat@ ..., JatHistory@yahoogro ups.com

            > Cc: tavleensingh@ ..., nandita.sengupta@ ..., letters@..., paramitaghosh@ ..., letters@..., neha@..., letters@..., tavleen.singh@ ..., letters@..., rajdeep.sardesai@ ..., barkha@..., rajeshtripathi@ ..., vineet.journalist@ ..., sushil_gangwar@ ..., Manveer.Saini@ ..., Chetan.Bhagat@ ..., ronojoy.sen@ ..., nbtonline@.. ., mailerservice@ ..., toiblogseditor@ ..., toireporter@ ..., editor@..., info@..., kavitakrish73@ ...
            > Date: Sunday, May 30, 2010, 1:59 PM
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Chetan Bhagat ji , I’m not a revered writer like you still mustering the courage to reply line by line (my comments in blue) of your article .
            > You disappointed greatly because we expect clarity of thought , social awareness and sensibility some one like you, sorry to say your article is insipid ,immature and shows that you haven’t qualified to write on social issues yet,  and probably never be , because it seems you have not seen the Indian society  and don’t have any first hand experience . There is nothing wrong , we have plethora of such thinkers and sociologist around  and fiercely vocal , those have just the birds’ eye view on every social issue , long gone the days when Premchand , Sharatchand and Gurudatt..etc.  could reflect the Indian society in just few lines.
            > Knowingly or unknowing you have joined the chain of pseudo journalist engage in tarnishing the image of khap Panchayats  , like by birth we become Indian  in the  same way every  Jat is defecto member of Khap. And  this compelling reason forcing me to try to bridges some gaps transpire from your article.
            >  
            > I don't know my own gotra. I didn't even know what gotra meant until recently.
            > In what account this is a matter of pride , not able to understand. I hope ,you at least  know name of your grandfather. It’s all in lineage , if our family and we are proud of it we will be aware of it thoroughly  else family will not touch this thread and child will be ignorant. 2ndly , if we incline towards  social subject.. like history, literature this will lead to us automatically to this understanding , if we are incline towards Science subject  , our inclination towards math and science have less to do with  history and anthropology , in your case you were incline to science subject and writer by accident.
            > Many people still don't, but calling it a sub-caste is a good proxy definition.
            > Chetan ji , one thing I will admire about you that you are thoroughly honest in  showing your ignorance and that too on a national daily. Gotra a subcast , such a lame definition can be expected from a foreign journalist who is on one month tour of incredible India or from some Firangi professor teaching about  indian society in some foreign university . Their ignorance is pardonable  , but here a whole lot of writers  and social thinkers  are making   all sort of comments and definition based on sallow knowledge of matter at hand and over simplifying it that it become counter productive.
            >  
            >  I don't know why it was invented, or why it is still relevant.
            > You are right up to some extent that these were “Invented� , Brahmins they invented by the names of rishies. These Brahnmin further invented gotra for rajputs at Agnikund of Mount Abu around  1100 years back.  Gotra is the word mainly used with Brahmin terminology, different people interpret it differently. 
            > For Jats we have clan system   and  organized in 4000 different patrilineal  clans. These clans are started from some historical person , families . Over the time decedents of these person or family grown up and we have clans living in only one village and some big clans live in 70,80 villages.  Our clan is taken as gotra by all non jats those are unaware of clan system.
            > Because of these clan , this give us far rigorous social bonding and we are aware of the house and family from where the whole clan started centuries ago . The eldest member or patriarch of this house and family is known as Baba or Dada like in our family.  So whole bloodline and clan genealogy is in front  of our eyes .  If you visit house of any of these Baba , (ust 100 KM from delhi) ,you will find them among the modest household in village ,but  whole clan give respect to clan’s Baba and this is only power they have . Over the years they never let down their extended family members (clan). That’s the reason we don’t marry in clan because of this strong feeling of brotherhood/ sisterhood among the clan members.
            > So there is vast difference between “Gotra� and Clan , former is just for name sake and some time use during marriage ceremonies , while Clan is family linage , not something imaginary gotra name that has no meaning today.
            > When you are saying “why it is still relevant� . I would say it is very subjective  , it’s upto individuals how much respects and affection he bestow on his family and extended family (clan) . We have cases where all children settled in US and old parents are left behind in India. So instead of being judgmental , lets leave it on the family/community members.
            > As if it wasn't good enough to divide people on caste, we needed one more level of sub-caste slicing to ensure as many Indians hate each other as possible. 
            > Nothing was created to divide and to integrate  , everything happened as a part of social evolution . So ,don’t  take these from prejudice mindset  . And level don’t ends here , level are upto individual  , even born in same family , siblings do differently  , some add the level of BE some will add MBA and they may hate each other for some or other reason  , and this give the birth of word  “sibling rivalry�  . So these individual emotions of hate , love can’t be generalize on the basis of any structure.
            >
            > However, this time it isn't being from different gotras that is a problem, it is being from the same one. Unlike inter-caste marriages that are considered problematic, the problem lies in intra-gotra marriages. These, according to some, will completely tarnish a family's reputation and pose health risks to kids of the wedded couple, due to genetic similarities. People from the same gotra aren't blood related, but marriage between them is not encouraged (read: death sentences are passed). 
            >  
            >
            >
            > Leading the 'no-same-gotra- love' T-shirt brigade are the khap panchayats. The khap system is thousands of years old, and our erstwhile British rulers lived with it and probably encouraged it, to avoid the judicial system being flooded with petty disputes and enabling these to be solved at the local level.
            > Dear Chetan , you really  don’t know history. During  and after 1857 British rulers put Khap Panchayat members under the steam rollers , hang them on nearest tree .
            > Yes , Brits as more rational people didn’t  interfere in the social custom and traditions of our community   that includes widow remarriage (so no sati system) and almost no child marriage.
            > Are issues of property , land holding , water sharing  are petty dispute ? , if any of such issue is not talked timely may start a series of murder in village .  So what are “Real� dispute , wrong parking ?  , because this is only issue urbanite face  and keep city police busy.
            > I hope you haven’t forgotten the term “ Gram Swaraj� ,  a word coined by Mahatam Ghandhi , in  recognition of the competence of the people to manage its own life according to its traditions and customs. It would have been  the real freedom for the people of india  living in ‘7-lakh Village Republics’  , instead of centrally managed beurocracy  with the help of all tools and paraphernalia by which British was ruling the masses , like  Indian Penal code  , and a replica of US,UK,Ireland constitution. 
            > “Read Death Sentences pass� : However a lot of hue and cry is being made about death sentences  but at a time when  video camera has make way to the bedroom of Governor and Swamis , no one has  produced single video clipping of panchayat delivering such sentence in broad day light in front of hundred of people.
            > The British left 63 years ago, but khaps have survived, aided by the patronage of local political parties which in turn find them nice little rural vote banks. 
            > These Khaps  have written references in Vedic text , 2500 BC , Buddhist and Panini text . This was the first attempt of humanity to live in republic formation and till that time they are in practice .  Just imagine how much challenges have been passed by these republic formation .
            > These republic formation bore  the brunt of Muslim invasion and if India still has it’s old faith , major credit goes to these Khaps. Muslim wave started from Arab has the history of changing the socio political landscape of the country it pass thru,  in 100 years , take the example of any country from Arab to  border of Spain.
            >  
            >
            > The khap justice system is neither as rigorous as nor always consistent with the Indian legal system. Nor has it been reformed. However, given political patronage, khaps still thrive in parts of north India. One of the most controversial khap diktats is the no-same-gotra- marriage, something the youth in rural areas find quite baffling. Desperate for reform, the youth had hoped a young leader like their MP Naveen Jindal would come and change draconian rules. But he backed the khap's demand to turn no-same-gotra- marriage into a law. While shocking and disappointing to many, one can see his motivation in backing regressive ideas. It is always easier to tap into traditions and win support. It is much harder to be progressive, change thinking and still take people along. 
            >  I have explained why same clan marriage is considered incest in Jat community or in any Aryan community like Gujjar and Ahir.  Mixed Caste and community having dubious ancestry will not be able to comprehend it  , out of their historical and ancestral guilt they will do what is expected from a frustrated lot , malign the image of impeccable community on false charges . I really don’t know which youth you are talking about I personally never came across any lad who is finding it’s baffling. Just go to any related web page and see what the young Jats are saying , now they are talking about some “direct Action� because they feel  this is the only way left for the deaf ears .
            >
            >
            > Fears of genetic similarities leading to offspring risks do not hold. Apparently, there are historical roots between same gotra people and hence there could be genetic similarities. Those roots may be 10 generations old, and anyone with basic knowledge of genetics and mathematics will tell you that in 10 generations, less than 0.1 per cent of DNA may be sibling-like between two offspring of the same roots. Legality is also a non-issue. Many communities have marriages between cousins, without any legal issues. 
            > I would recommend  you study the findings of  Renowned DNA scientist James D Watson , who endorse the view point of avoiding marriages in the bloodline as it’s reduce the genetic diseases.
            > BBC reported high number of birth related diseases in Muslim community in UK because of marriages in family.
            >
            > Another BBC report suggest high number of microcephalics- babies born in Pakistan because of genetic diseases , also linked to marriages in bloodline.
            >
            >  Parsi are struggling with various genetic diseases and low potency and community has reached a level of wiped out from with in.
            > Dr Praveen C Sobti, a thalassaemic expert at Dayanand Medical College and Hospital (DMCH) found that Punjabi Khatri  are more prone to congenital disease  and to overcome this now only choice they have is inter-cast marriage , because they didn’t care bloodline ,clan and as a results whole community is contaminated with disease.
            > 0.1 percent is one out of 10 or 10%   , the above thalassemic case  is 7.5 % of population  and crossed the signification limit. Doctors suggest  that  ideal situation is 0% gene match , might be impractical but nearer is better.
            >  
            > I’m not able to understand  , at one place you say  that these concepts are outdated and not progressive and on  the other hand you shrug off the genetic  findings , biology and health data.
            > You judge yourself , who is real progressive and who is just prejudice.
            >
            >
            > While chances of the no-same-gotra diktat becoming a law are extremely remote, outright support of medieval traditions by modern era leaders make one shudder about which direction politicians are taking our country.
            > If we leave everything  to  people like you , I tell you where our country will lead , in next 2-4 years you gays will be admiring  and supporting following cases in Indian society too , on the basis of Individual choice.
            > 1-April 30,2010’Dakota news� , In UK grandmother and grandson having baby together.
            > 2-Feb 27,2007,guardian. co.uk ,Brother and sister had 4 children together and brother is saying incest law is outdated and they should be allowed to make their personal choice.
            > These are enough to suggest that we have completed the circle and have started and willing to lead a animal life.
            >  Jindal had earlier fought in court for every citizen's freedom to hoist the Indian flag. When a crusader for individual freedom backs a proposal preventing two human beings to be in love and make a future together, one wonders what our politicians will do to get a few extra votes. Did he make a calculation? Did the number of older people versus younger people (those who actually vote) go in favour of the older people? Is that the only criterion for making political decisions? Or is it about doing the right thing and leading the country to progress? 
            > I really don’t know how did you get the impression that we young are so dumb that  we are not able to read between the lines , and will give a toss to history , ancestry  and scientific reasoning.
            > Will you support marriage of brother and sister in your family in the name of individual freedom ,  if your answer is ‘No’ then you are not honest to your conviction , you also hold some concepts and tradition which you feel right . I hope you will not impose your concepts and tradition on this loving pair , being  a crusader  of  ‘individual Freedom’ even this adrift to immorality and incest.
            >
            > We live in rare times where conflict between the thought of the old and new generations is at its peak.
            > Here is nothing permanent except change ,new generation will be old very soon, and this is happening since the time immemorial  , all these concepts have reached us shows ,that generations passes these from one to next , and time has tested the veracity of these.  we feel , now questions should be asked whether we want a  civilized life or animal life like freedom of gay sex, unnatural sex , sex with in immediate or extended family , live in sex…etc. and last custodian of family value “KHAP’ is under attack by corporate funded NGOs and media houses.
            > We have Indian women leading global corporations. We also have Indian parents who don't want their daughters to study further. I was in Gorakhpur last week, where a young girl in a semi-rural area confessed to me that her father didn't want her to go to college unless it was within a five-kilometre radius of the house. There was no consideration for what the girl wanted to become in life. This is just one example. 
            > Just compare the background  of both the ladies , a lot has been said about Bharat and India in this country  , but this India do almost nothing  to make the Bharat capable enough so that it can use his full potential . Question should be asked why there is no college with in 5 KM , why govt. and establishment not able to generate the feeling of safety and protection in the mind of father of this young girl . We just can’t discard the concerns of a father , who is very much willing to send his daughter but seems a  “trust  deficit� on part of system for safety.
            >
            > From khap rules to individual rules, India-old and India-new battle everyday. India-old is powerful: khaps wield power. However, India-new has better ideas for progress. India-old has dominated thought for the last six decades and, to put it bluntly, not achieved much. We are, despite all our missile and satellite launches, one of the poorest nations on earth. Our biggest cities don't have basics like good water and power. With such a poor report card, it is suprising India-old still makes and imposes rules. The only reason it can do so is difference in power. This is where politicians come in. 
            > Where and how does Khap rules , Mr Chetan .  Do they have any home/office address , any bank account , any ‘rule’ enforcing agency . You know highest per capita income district of India , falls in Khap area “Muzaffarnagar in west UP’ happen to be 8th in the world . And this not  because of  India-new  and it’s BPO and  ITEs  but by old traditional  family labour ‘Agriculture’ . I think rest of questions  you should ask from politicians , as far KHAP (Farmers) is concerns they did more then expected by making Green revolution successful  so that India don’t bag for daily diet.
            > Frankly speaking , I tried my best to make out something from your above Para , but this is more or less  jumbled up thoughts .
            >
            > Politicians have power which they can lend to India-new and back them all the way. They can take a stand, embrace progress, back individual freedom, uphold modern laws and focus on real rural issues (corruption in NREGA, for instance). This will lead to a more prosperous country and a better life for all Indians. Jindal had a chance to do that, to play a part in history, be the role model for rural Haryana's youth. However, he blew it, with his short-sightedness to remain in power. What use is power when it isn't used to help others? 
            >
            > OK, again all chatter  no substance .
            > I think IITs  and similar prominent institutes of other fields are branded as the top dens of ‘India-new’.
            > What is the contribution of India-new to  the society , every indian including beggars fund these institutes  like IIT , in form of taxes he pays . What is outcome , some ready to employ skilled hands for foreign and Indian MNCs.
            > In last 60 years tell me a single invention from IITs , that has touched the life of common Indians , these IITs have  research centers , labs , workshops , have they produced some thing like a better hand pump  , which will take less effort & will give more water , a better bullock cart which can carry much load , a cost and quality effective water purifier for masses to save them from water born diseases , a better power alternative …list is long  , and outcome  is none.
            > So why should society care about the ‘India-new’ , which has turn out to be NPA (non performing Asset)
            > So This branding of “IIT�  and shining “India-new�  may means something  at US Shores ,  but  a Indian farmer may be  aware of PUSA not IIT, et al.
            >  
            >  most of  DMs and SPs of rural district are in bracket of Young , still corruption is  going on in NREGA , NGOs those are crying horse on a non issue like gotra  ,what is their report card in unearthing scam in NREGA , almost none because very soon they become cozy with the system. No NGO really wants to work in field  except initial 2-3 formative years , once they get some recognition and assurance of steady fund from some govt. department  and foreign philanthropy trust , they will look for such issues those can be handled from cozy offices ,TV studio and will help them in news and media glare.
            > Individual freedom has become   favorite phrase in support of animal instinct.  Will this individual freedom will work in some moral and social framework  or this will consider every other “body�  a good for love , and every behavior driven by whim ,lust and desire will be considered a sacrosanct  expression of Individual freedom. If we are to be logically consistent we must embrace and celebrate pretty much every desire or whim that crosses anyone’s heart regarding anything.
            >
            > Meantime, pass whatever diktats and make whatever laws - none of them can take on Mother Nature, and prevent two people from falling in love. Try as much as you can. Meanwhile, i still don't know my gotra. And i hope i never find out. 
            >  Unfortunately it’s not mother nature that driving the thing , it’s all to create a few places like SoHo in India , particularly NCR ,  a lot of corporate funding is going on to buy shrill NGOs and media groups , just look at the coordinated way of campaign against the informal institution KHAP. All and sundry joined this campaign , with the palpable ignorance on the issue…and you have joined too.
            > Following the very relevant t excerpt from one social activist.
            > “The corporate agenda on the question of ‘love, sex and marriage’ has reached a point of decisive assertion. The crusaders feel confident that their past labour is going to pay dividends now or never. The war is at decisive level. They feel emboldened enough to demolish Khaps now openly and pointedly. As custodian of these values Gotra Khaps and Khaps or Bhaichara assemblies, being informal institutions of social interaction and dispute resolution with rural India, also known by many such other names, are in for an intense berating. -both as concept and practice. The shrill chorus to ban these institutions signify this assault. Simultaneously, the dare-devil campaign in favour of gay sex or unnatural sex and opening doors wide for live-in relationship, is that unmistakeable turning point the corporate capital has gained foothold on this accord through its steady and long drawn effort for the past two decades of liberalism to make it truly
            > irretrievable.
            >  
            >  
            > Opening the country to FDI and collaboration regime in the economic field from the West, corporate world needs congenial atmosphere for entertainment of western investors who revel in sexual forays as entertainment. Smooth ground is being prepared by free India with feverish speed and removing all hurdles like family norms, which British rulers had feared to tread in their times. The country is being prepared for these ‘valuable guests’ with such infrastructure in place. Is it a mere sublime coincidence that, on one hand unnatural sex and live-in relations are made acceptable to Indian mind just on the eve of Commonwealth Games and, on the other a high pitch campaign is released for banning the custodians of family ethos like Gotra Khaps in tow? You are in a hurry to ban beggars in the Capital, de-criminalising gay sex, legitimising live-in relationship and clamping ban on Khaps in the interest of corporate capital to gain fabulous profits simply
            > because these institutions do not approve of an alien agenda!! Is it not a part of the same game plan? Pl. deny, if it is wrong.�
            >  
            >
            > As far your Gotra imbroglio is concern, that you have to resolve yourself  as it’s your personal issue , it’s hardly matter to anybody ,  if you know the name of your Gotra or not , or for that matter name of your father and grand father….after all it’s individual choice.
            > At last I will take the opportunity to clear a few points.
            > Bloodline make the clan members brother and sister , and we have our bloodline and clan linage very clear , so same clan marriage is  unacceptable in  Jat communities .
            > For us we have options lined up
            > (1)    Easiest way is to accommodate the tradition of the  community ,  4 -5 Crore in numbers , in the Hindu Marriage act . HMA also acknowledge “Custom and usage signify any rule which having been continuously and uniformly observed for a long time ,has obtained the force of law among Hindus in any local area , tribe ,community, group of family.�   ( WE are proposing amendment for Jats only , we are not concerned  in what custom other communities indulge in)
            > (2)    Next option is , We are ready to severe our association with Hindu religion , we were always on the fringe and were loggerhead with the puranic/Bhrahmenica l  mindset . We never bow down  to rigid and inhumane practices ,  massacre of Buddhists  in the name of religion , sacrifice of animals , ritual on the basis of false purans , Sati … list is long . On the contrary we observes widow marriage . All these things kept us on the fringe of Hindu religion and were never a complete Hindu.
            >        So if people will keep on imposing us the custom of Hindus , under the disguise of Hindu   marriage act . We should call us ourselves non-Hindu  , and demand  our right as minority religion , like Sikh  & Muslim.
            > (3)    Finally , In the case of continuous  oppression  by the hand of these Hindus , in their pursuit of creating a homogenous religion and  from state who don’t want to acknowledge our ethnic  identity and culture and want to force the  constitutional clause of marriage , those are against the belief and ethos of our community. We should approach the UN and other world bodies and raise the issue that  in Indian state our ethnic community’s culture and tradition is not safe and not being protected and we are facing  soft ethnic cleansing,  so  need a separate homeland , like Kurd are demanding in Iraq and Turkey , Jews got Israel .
            >  
            >   Indian subcontinent is the house of may nations and ethnic groups  . These groups have their own customs ,  tradition  , way of life and they put more loyalties and pride in their ethnicity then their religion and nationality.
            > We have seen the example of Pakistan , who tried to create a homogenous society in the name of ISLAM and with the slogans “Hum sab musalman hain� ,hoping that religion will be the glue to keep the different ethnicity together even without a cumbersome  democracy. First causality was in the form of  Bangladesh ,  Bengoli ethnicity came out of Islamic glue ,when their  tradition and culture was ridiculed and humiliated by the powerful Punjabi  ethnicity , it was a loss for Pakistan and setback for Muslim ummat.
            > To day in Pakistan , there is very visible divide on ethnic lines , Baloch are all out for freedom and it can happen at any time , Sindhi , Mohajir , Hazara , Pakhtun , Pathan and Punjabi  ethnicity are suspicious with each other . So, it’s clear in this  subcontinent  Ethnic  affiliation is far more emotional issue and people has very clear priority ,ethnicity comes on top of priority compare to religion and nationality .
            > USSR  broke into numerous countries formed basically on ethnic basis , so monolithic and homogenous society  created by the name of nationality can’t survive too.
            >   We can change  our faith in two minutes  ,can change our nationality in manageable time ,  but never our ethnic linage.
            > Hope this will make you little more wiser , NOW , people like you should think , in which way you want us to  behave  and pursue the option . Compromising on our ethnic identity and it’s institution is unacceptable to every young Jat.
            >  
            >


          • Ajay Singh
            ALL THIS BIG DRAMA IS PURELY A BIG PLAN FOR LAND AND MONEY. They have no love for money and in a way they are spreading a bad name on the whole community for
            Message 5 of 13 , Jun 14, 2010
              ALL THIS BIG DRAMA IS PURELY A BIG PLAN FOR LAND AND MONEY. They have no love for money and in a way they are spreading a bad name on the whole community for few incidents which may be personal or social and our leaders are sitting idle.Translating and misrepresting facts like they used to do in past. Jats control the best land in 300 KM radius of Delhi and will be the beneficial of any changes in the NCR. If they have bad name and if they try to do good they can be easily exploited that's why they never mention and try to brand other castes in the bad light. Jat image has to restored and we have to prosper financially.

              On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 3:18 PM, Ajay Singh <asingh71@...> wrote:
              Bhagat is a Khatri last name and at anytime of his or his family marriage he must avoided some gotra(read any newspaper). Malik bhai, since the birth of new brahminsim 1000 yeras back, all the so self claimed forward caste just focused on money and purely money. Rajputs flourished because they supported muslim invaders excpet few and copied their tax colletion system and sucked the poor Jat farmers, Brahmins copied the British and now Banias aping the american system of suck the blood of common man in the name of market economy. Even if you try to educate them, their pure focus is to finish "Khaps" so that Jat power can be reduced to dust and Jats can be easily enslaved like in the past. All media is hitting by  using "Jat" name everywhere. They never mentioned that lalit modi a bania with 2 marriages and all bania's fruad very well etc.. They never highlight the caste of Rajput, Khatri, Bania or Bahman but always try to project jat in bad name


              On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 6:18 AM, s.s. rana <drssrana2003@...> wrote:
               

              Laxman ji has rightly underlined the place of gotra in thelife of certain communities. India is a country of diversities. It is a country where pluraliity is the real living spetrum. But the broader picture is divided into two well identified worlds, viz. the rural and urban worlds, each very different in many ways from the other. The latter, a congomeration of fragmented souls takes pride in labeling itself modern and progressive on the basis of parameters which are superficial and mundane leading to a anonymous individualistic way of life where happiness is a wild goose chase. tThe former on the other hand is a  interdependant emotionally stable and happy society drawing its strenghth from custom and tradition though not averse to the use of technology available any where.Such communities lay great emphasis on their way of life proved since centuries. Social interaction and matrimony are the important areas which set the pattern of life. No wonder then that such rural communities accept and practice voluntarily, for mutual benefit certain code in these areas of their life.Gotra is just one of the parameters among the prohibitions in matrimonial alliances. different cultural or social groups have their own set of such prohibitions which have been observed to enjoy the environment. There is vast amunt of ignorance on the part of the urban bred on such practices and their neceesity.One can only pity such people for their very narrow vision.
              Dr. S,S. Rana    

              --- On Tue, 8/6/10, lr_burdak <lr_burdak@...> wrote:

              From: lr_burdak <lr_burdak@...>
              Subject: [JatHistory] Re: What's Gotra Got To Do With It?
              To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Tuesday, 8 June, 2010, 8:48 PM

               
              I don't know my own gotra. I didn't even know what gotra meant until recently.

              The above sentence of Chetan Bhagat pained me a lot when I read this article. Why he is feeling so proud on his ignorance of his own lineage. If he does not know his gotra then why should he not try to know it. Can one be an expert of Indian Society by simply writing a few novels in English. If such a person does not realize about the diversity of Indian Society it is unfortunate !!!

              Regards,

              ************ *
              Laxman Burdak
              ************ *

              --- In JatHistory@yahoogro ups.com, arvind kumar <arvindmalik_ 2003@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear all ,
              >  
              > This is pleasant to see that your TOI column ‘What’s Gotra What To Do With It’ is not featuring on your site under ‘columns’ and ‘blog’ where your past and present columns are available.
              > I seriously consider that you should  say sorry and  be apologies for tarnishing the image of Khap Panchayat without knowing the facts and carried away by the some far from truth , stories of ‘off the shelf’  journalists.
              > Khaps can’t demand apology from you as they are informal institution , no address , no office and no spokesperson … but they represent a culture ,  ethnicity and community.
              > We still believe that you not from the genre of ‘off the shelf’ , you are independent  voice so don’t dilute it  by writing such baseless and far from truth comments sitting in Mumbai.
              > Regards
              > Arvind Malik
              > http://www.arvindma likblog.blogspot .com/

              >
              > --- On Sun, 5/30/10, arvind kumar arvindmalik_ 2003@... wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: arvind kumar arvindmalik_ 2003@...
              > Subject: Re: [JatHistory] What's Gotra Got To Do With It?
              > To: chetan.bhagat@ ..., JatHistory@yahoogro ups.com

              > Cc: tavleensingh@ ..., nandita.sengupta@ ..., letters@..., paramitaghosh@ ..., letters@..., neha@..., letters@..., tavleen.singh@ ..., letters@..., rajdeep.sardesai@ ..., barkha@..., rajeshtripathi@ ..., vineet.journalist@ ..., sushil_gangwar@ ..., Manveer.Saini@ ..., Chetan.Bhagat@ ..., ronojoy.sen@ ..., nbtonline@.. ., mailerservice@ ..., toiblogseditor@ ..., toireporter@ ..., editor@..., info@..., kavitakrish73@ ...
              > Date: Sunday, May 30, 2010, 1:59 PM
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Chetan Bhagat ji , I’m not a revered writer like you still mustering the courage to reply line by line (my comments in blue) of your article .
              > You disappointed greatly because we expect clarity of thought , social awareness and sensibility some one like you, sorry to say your article is insipid ,immature and shows that you haven’t qualified to write on social issues yet,  and probably never be , because it seems you have not seen the Indian society  and don’t have any first hand experience . There is nothing wrong , we have plethora of such thinkers and sociologist around  and fiercely vocal , those have just the birds’ eye view on every social issue , long gone the days when Premchand , Sharatchand and Gurudatt..etc.  could reflect the Indian society in just few lines.
              > Knowingly or unknowing you have joined the chain of pseudo journalist engage in tarnishing the image of khap Panchayats  , like by birth we become Indian  in the  same way every  Jat is defecto member of Khap. And  this compelling reason forcing me to try to bridges some gaps transpire from your article.
              >  
              > I don't know my own gotra. I didn't even know what gotra meant until recently.
              > In what account this is a matter of pride , not able to understand. I hope ,you at least  know name of your grandfather. It’s all in lineage , if our family and we are proud of it we will be aware of it thoroughly  else family will not touch this thread and child will be ignorant. 2ndly , if we incline towards  social subject.. like history, literature this will lead to us automatically to this understanding , if we are incline towards Science subject  , our inclination towards math and science have less to do with  history and anthropology , in your case you were incline to science subject and writer by accident.
              > Many people still don't, but calling it a sub-caste is a good proxy definition.
              > Chetan ji , one thing I will admire about you that you are thoroughly honest in  showing your ignorance and that too on a national daily. Gotra a subcast , such a lame definition can be expected from a foreign journalist who is on one month tour of incredible India or from some Firangi professor teaching about  indian society in some foreign university . Their ignorance is pardonable  , but here a whole lot of writers  and social thinkers  are making   all sort of comments and definition based on sallow knowledge of matter at hand and over simplifying it that it become counter productive.
              >  
              >  I don't know why it was invented, or why it is still relevant.
              > You are right up to some extent that these were “Invented� , Brahmins they invented by the names of rishies. These Brahnmin further invented gotra for rajputs at Agnikund of Mount Abu around  1100 years back.  Gotra is the word mainly used with Brahmin terminology, different people interpret it differently. 
              > For Jats we have clan system   and  organized in 4000 different patrilineal  clans. These clans are started from some historical person , families . Over the time decedents of these person or family grown up and we have clans living in only one village and some big clans live in 70,80 villages.  Our clan is taken as gotra by all non jats those are unaware of clan system.
              > Because of these clan , this give us far rigorous social bonding and we are aware of the house and family from where the whole clan started centuries ago . The eldest member or patriarch of this house and family is known as Baba or Dada like in our family.  So whole bloodline and clan genealogy is in front  of our eyes .  If you visit house of any of these Baba , (ust 100 KM from delhi) ,you will find them among the modest household in village ,but  whole clan give respect to clan’s Baba and this is only power they have . Over the years they never let down their extended family members (clan). That’s the reason we don’t marry in clan because of this strong feeling of brotherhood/ sisterhood among the clan members.
              > So there is vast difference between “Gotra� and Clan , former is just for name sake and some time use during marriage ceremonies , while Clan is family linage , not something imaginary gotra name that has no meaning today.
              > When you are saying “why it is still relevant� . I would say it is very subjective  , it’s upto individuals how much respects and affection he bestow on his family and extended family (clan) . We have cases where all children settled in US and old parents are left behind in India. So instead of being judgmental , lets leave it on the family/community members.
              > As if it wasn't good enough to divide people on caste, we needed one more level of sub-caste slicing to ensure as many Indians hate each other as possible. 
              > Nothing was created to divide and to integrate  , everything happened as a part of social evolution . So ,don’t  take these from prejudice mindset  . And level don’t ends here , level are upto individual  , even born in same family , siblings do differently  , some add the level of BE some will add MBA and they may hate each other for some or other reason  , and this give the birth of word  “sibling rivalry�  . So these individual emotions of hate , love can’t be generalize on the basis of any structure.
              >
              > However, this time it isn't being from different gotras that is a problem, it is being from the same one. Unlike inter-caste marriages that are considered problematic, the problem lies in intra-gotra marriages. These, according to some, will completely tarnish a family's reputation and pose health risks to kids of the wedded couple, due to genetic similarities. People from the same gotra aren't blood related, but marriage between them is not encouraged (read: death sentences are passed). 
              >  
              >
              >
              > Leading the 'no-same-gotra- love' T-shirt brigade are the khap panchayats. The khap system is thousands of years old, and our erstwhile British rulers lived with it and probably encouraged it, to avoid the judicial system being flooded with petty disputes and enabling these to be solved at the local level.
              > Dear Chetan , you really  don’t know history. During  and after 1857 British rulers put Khap Panchayat members under the steam rollers , hang them on nearest tree .
              > Yes , Brits as more rational people didn’t  interfere in the social custom and traditions of our community   that includes widow remarriage (so no sati system) and almost no child marriage.
              > Are issues of property , land holding , water sharing  are petty dispute ? , if any of such issue is not talked timely may start a series of murder in village .  So what are “Real� dispute , wrong parking ?  , because this is only issue urbanite face  and keep city police busy.
              > I hope you haven’t forgotten the term “ Gram Swaraj� ,  a word coined by Mahatam Ghandhi , in  recognition of the competence of the people to manage its own life according to its traditions and customs. It would have been  the real freedom for the people of india  living in ‘7-lakh Village Republics’  , instead of centrally managed beurocracy  with the help of all tools and paraphernalia by which British was ruling the masses , like  Indian Penal code  , and a replica of US,UK,Ireland constitution. 
              > “Read Death Sentences pass� : However a lot of hue and cry is being made about death sentences  but at a time when  video camera has make way to the bedroom of Governor and Swamis , no one has  produced single video clipping of panchayat delivering such sentence in broad day light in front of hundred of people.
              > The British left 63 years ago, but khaps have survived, aided by the patronage of local political parties which in turn find them nice little rural vote banks. 
              > These Khaps  have written references in Vedic text , 2500 BC , Buddhist and Panini text . This was the first attempt of humanity to live in republic formation and till that time they are in practice .  Just imagine how much challenges have been passed by these republic formation .
              > These republic formation bore  the brunt of Muslim invasion and if India still has it’s old faith , major credit goes to these Khaps. Muslim wave started from Arab has the history of changing the socio political landscape of the country it pass thru,  in 100 years , take the example of any country from Arab to  border of Spain.
              >  
              >
              > The khap justice system is neither as rigorous as nor always consistent with the Indian legal system. Nor has it been reformed. However, given political patronage, khaps still thrive in parts of north India. One of the most controversial khap diktats is the no-same-gotra- marriage, something the youth in rural areas find quite baffling. Desperate for reform, the youth had hoped a young leader like their MP Naveen Jindal would come and change draconian rules. But he backed the khap's demand to turn no-same-gotra- marriage into a law. While shocking and disappointing to many, one can see his motivation in backing regressive ideas. It is always easier to tap into traditions and win support. It is much harder to be progressive, change thinking and still take people along. 
              >  I have explained why same clan marriage is considered incest in Jat community or in any Aryan community like Gujjar and Ahir.  Mixed Caste and community having dubious ancestry will not be able to comprehend it  , out of their historical and ancestral guilt they will do what is expected from a frustrated lot , malign the image of impeccable community on false charges . I really don’t know which youth you are talking about I personally never came across any lad who is finding it’s baffling. Just go to any related web page and see what the young Jats are saying , now they are talking about some “direct Action� because they feel  this is the only way left for the deaf ears .
              >
              >
              > Fears of genetic similarities leading to offspring risks do not hold. Apparently, there are historical roots between same gotra people and hence there could be genetic similarities. Those roots may be 10 generations old, and anyone with basic knowledge of genetics and mathematics will tell you that in 10 generations, less than 0.1 per cent of DNA may be sibling-like between two offspring of the same roots. Legality is also a non-issue. Many communities have marriages between cousins, without any legal issues. 
              > I would recommend  you study the findings of  Renowned DNA scientist James D Watson , who endorse the view point of avoiding marriages in the bloodline as it’s reduce the genetic diseases.
              > BBC reported high number of birth related diseases in Muslim community in UK because of marriages in family.
              >
              > Another BBC report suggest high number of microcephalics- babies born in Pakistan because of genetic diseases , also linked to marriages in bloodline.
              >
              >  Parsi are struggling with various genetic diseases and low potency and community has reached a level of wiped out from with in.
              > Dr Praveen C Sobti, a thalassaemic expert at Dayanand Medical College and Hospital (DMCH) found that Punjabi Khatri  are more prone to congenital disease  and to overcome this now only choice they have is inter-cast marriage , because they didn’t care bloodline ,clan and as a results whole community is contaminated with disease.
              > 0.1 percent is one out of 10 or 10%   , the above thalassemic case  is 7.5 % of population  and crossed the signification limit. Doctors suggest  that  ideal situation is 0% gene match , might be impractical but nearer is better.
              >  
              > I’m not able to understand  , at one place you say  that these concepts are outdated and not progressive and on  the other hand you shrug off the genetic  findings , biology and health data.
              > You judge yourself , who is real progressive and who is just prejudice.
              >
              >
              > While chances of the no-same-gotra diktat becoming a law are extremely remote, outright support of medieval traditions by modern era leaders make one shudder about which direction politicians are taking our country.
              > If we leave everything  to  people like you , I tell you where our country will lead , in next 2-4 years you gays will be admiring  and supporting following cases in Indian society too , on the basis of Individual choice.
              > 1-April 30,2010’Dakota news� , In UK grandmother and grandson having baby together.
              > 2-Feb 27,2007,guardian. co.uk ,Brother and sister had 4 children together and brother is saying incest law is outdated and they should be allowed to make their personal choice.
              > These are enough to suggest that we have completed the circle and have started and willing to lead a animal life.
              >  Jindal had earlier fought in court for every citizen's freedom to hoist the Indian flag. When a crusader for individual freedom backs a proposal preventing two human beings to be in love and make a future together, one wonders what our politicians will do to get a few extra votes. Did he make a calculation? Did the number of older people versus younger people (those who actually vote) go in favour of the older people? Is that the only criterion for making political decisions? Or is it about doing the right thing and leading the country to progress? 
              > I really don’t know how did you get the impression that we young are so dumb that  we are not able to read between the lines , and will give a toss to history , ancestry  and scientific reasoning.
              > Will you support marriage of brother and sister in your family in the name of individual freedom ,  if your answer is ‘No’ then you are not honest to your conviction , you also hold some concepts and tradition which you feel right . I hope you will not impose your concepts and tradition on this loving pair , being  a crusader  of  ‘individual Freedom’ even this adrift to immorality and incest.
              >
              > We live in rare times where conflict between the thought of the old and new generations is at its peak.
              > Here is nothing permanent except change ,new generation will be old very soon, and this is happening since the time immemorial  , all these concepts have reached us shows ,that generations passes these from one to next , and time has tested the veracity of these.  we feel , now questions should be asked whether we want a  civilized life or animal life like freedom of gay sex, unnatural sex , sex with in immediate or extended family , live in sex…etc. and last custodian of family value “KHAP’ is under attack by corporate funded NGOs and media houses.
              > We have Indian women leading global corporations. We also have Indian parents who don't want their daughters to study further. I was in Gorakhpur last week, where a young girl in a semi-rural area confessed to me that her father didn't want her to go to college unless it was within a five-kilometre radius of the house. There was no consideration for what the girl wanted to become in life. This is just one example. 
              > Just compare the background  of both the ladies , a lot has been said about Bharat and India in this country  , but this India do almost nothing  to make the Bharat capable enough so that it can use his full potential . Question should be asked why there is no college with in 5 KM , why govt. and establishment not able to generate the feeling of safety and protection in the mind of father of this young girl . We just can’t discard the concerns of a father , who is very much willing to send his daughter but seems a  “trust  deficit� on part of system for safety.
              >
              > From khap rules to individual rules, India-old and India-new battle everyday. India-old is powerful: khaps wield power. However, India-new has better ideas for progress. India-old has dominated thought for the last six decades and, to put it bluntly, not achieved much. We are, despite all our missile and satellite launches, one of the poorest nations on earth. Our biggest cities don't have basics like good water and power. With such a poor report card, it is suprising India-old still makes and imposes rules. The only reason it can do so is difference in power. This is where politicians come in. 
              > Where and how does Khap rules , Mr Chetan .  Do they have any home/office address , any bank account , any ‘rule’ enforcing agency . You know highest per capita income district of India , falls in Khap area “Muzaffarnagar in west UP’ happen to be 8th in the world . And this not  because of  India-new  and it’s BPO and  ITEs  but by old traditional  family labour ‘Agriculture’ . I think rest of questions  you should ask from politicians , as far KHAP (Farmers) is concerns they did more then expected by making Green revolution successful  so that India don’t bag for daily diet.
              > Frankly speaking , I tried my best to make out something from your above Para , but this is more or less  jumbled up thoughts .
              >
              > Politicians have power which they can lend to India-new and back them all the way. They can take a stand, embrace progress, back individual freedom, uphold modern laws and focus on real rural issues (corruption in NREGA, for instance). This will lead to a more prosperous country and a better life for all Indians. Jindal had a chance to do that, to play a part in history, be the role model for rural Haryana's youth. However, he blew it, with his short-sightedness to remain in power. What use is power when it isn't used to help others? 
              >
              > OK, again all chatter  no substance .
              > I think IITs  and similar prominent institutes of other fields are branded as the top dens of ‘India-new’.
              > What is the contribution of India-new to  the society , every indian including beggars fund these institutes  like IIT , in form of taxes he pays . What is outcome , some ready to employ skilled hands for foreign and Indian MNCs.
              > In last 60 years tell me a single invention from IITs , that has touched the life of common Indians , these IITs have  research centers , labs , workshops , have they produced some thing like a better hand pump  , which will take less effort & will give more water , a better bullock cart which can carry much load , a cost and quality effective water purifier for masses to save them from water born diseases , a better power alternative …list is long  , and outcome  is none.
              > So why should society care about the ‘India-new’ , which has turn out to be NPA (non performing Asset)
              > So This branding of “IIT�  and shining “India-new�  may means something  at US Shores ,  but  a Indian farmer may be  aware of PUSA not IIT, et al.
              >  
              >  most of  DMs and SPs of rural district are in bracket of Young , still corruption is  going on in NREGA , NGOs those are crying horse on a non issue like gotra  ,what is their report card in unearthing scam in NREGA , almost none because very soon they become cozy with the system. No NGO really wants to work in field  except initial 2-3 formative years , once they get some recognition and assurance of steady fund from some govt. department  and foreign philanthropy trust , they will look for such issues those can be handled from cozy offices ,TV studio and will help them in news and media glare.
              > Individual freedom has become   favorite phrase in support of animal instinct.  Will this individual freedom will work in some moral and social framework  or this will consider every other “body�  a good for love , and every behavior driven by whim ,lust and desire will be considered a sacrosanct  expression of Individual freedom. If we are to be logically consistent we must embrace and celebrate pretty much every desire or whim that crosses anyone’s heart regarding anything.
              >
              > Meantime, pass whatever diktats and make whatever laws - none of them can take on Mother Nature, and prevent two people from falling in love. Try as much as you can. Meanwhile, i still don't know my gotra. And i hope i never find out. 
              >  Unfortunately it’s not mother nature that driving the thing , it’s all to create a few places like SoHo in India , particularly NCR ,  a lot of corporate funding is going on to buy shrill NGOs and media groups , just look at the coordinated way of campaign against the informal institution KHAP. All and sundry joined this campaign , with the palpable ignorance on the issue…and you have joined too.
              > Following the very relevant t excerpt from one social activist.
              > “The corporate agenda on the question of ‘love, sex and marriage’ has reached a point of decisive assertion. The crusaders feel confident that their past labour is going to pay dividends now or never. The war is at decisive level. They feel emboldened enough to demolish Khaps now openly and pointedly. As custodian of these values Gotra Khaps and Khaps or Bhaichara assemblies, being informal institutions of social interaction and dispute resolution with rural India, also known by many such other names, are in for an intense berating. -both as concept and practice. The shrill chorus to ban these institutions signify this assault. Simultaneously, the dare-devil campaign in favour of gay sex or unnatural sex and opening doors wide for live-in relationship, is that unmistakeable turning point the corporate capital has gained foothold on this accord through its steady and long drawn effort for the past two decades of liberalism to make it truly
              > irretrievable.
              >  
              >  
              > Opening the country to FDI and collaboration regime in the economic field from the West, corporate world needs congenial atmosphere for entertainment of western investors who revel in sexual forays as entertainment. Smooth ground is being prepared by free India with feverish speed and removing all hurdles like family norms, which British rulers had feared to tread in their times. The country is being prepared for these ‘valuable guests’ with such infrastructure in place. Is it a mere sublime coincidence that, on one hand unnatural sex and live-in relations are made acceptable to Indian mind just on the eve of Commonwealth Games and, on the other a high pitch campaign is released for banning the custodians of family ethos like Gotra Khaps in tow? You are in a hurry to ban beggars in the Capital, de-criminalising gay sex, legitimising live-in relationship and clamping ban on Khaps in the interest of corporate capital to gain fabulous profits simply
              > because these institutions do not approve of an alien agenda!! Is it not a part of the same game plan? Pl. deny, if it is wrong.�
              >  
              >
              > As far your Gotra imbroglio is concern, that you have to resolve yourself  as it’s your personal issue , it’s hardly matter to anybody ,  if you know the name of your Gotra or not , or for that matter name of your father and grand father….after all it’s individual choice.
              > At last I will take the opportunity to clear a few points.
              > Bloodline make the clan members brother and sister , and we have our bloodline and clan linage very clear , so same clan marriage is  unacceptable in  Jat communities .
              > For us we have options lined up
              > (1)    Easiest way is to accommodate the tradition of the  community ,  4 -5 Crore in numbers , in the Hindu Marriage act . HMA also acknowledge “Custom and usage signify any rule which having been continuously and uniformly observed for a long time ,has obtained the force of law among Hindus in any local area , tribe ,community, group of family.�   ( WE are proposing amendment for Jats only , we are not concerned  in what custom other communities indulge in)
              > (2)    Next option is , We are ready to severe our association with Hindu religion , we were always on the fringe and were loggerhead with the puranic/Bhrahmenica l  mindset . We never bow down  to rigid and inhumane practices ,  massacre of Buddhists  in the name of religion , sacrifice of animals , ritual on the basis of false purans , Sati … list is long . On the contrary we observes widow marriage . All these things kept us on the fringe of Hindu religion and were never a complete Hindu.
              >        So if people will keep on imposing us the custom of Hindus , under the disguise of Hindu   marriage act . We should call us ourselves non-Hindu  , and demand  our right as minority religion , like Sikh  & Muslim.
              > (3)    Finally , In the case of continuous  oppression  by the hand of these Hindus , in their pursuit of creating a homogenous religion and  from state who don’t want to acknowledge our ethnic  identity and culture and want to force the  constitutional clause of marriage , those are against the belief and ethos of our community. We should approach the UN and other world bodies and raise the issue that  in Indian state our ethnic community’s culture and tradition is not safe and not being protected and we are facing  soft ethnic cleansing,  so  need a separate homeland , like Kurd are demanding in Iraq and Turkey , Jews got Israel .
              >  
              >   Indian subcontinent is the house of may nations and ethnic groups  . These groups have their own customs ,  tradition  , way of life and they put more loyalties and pride in their ethnicity then their religion and nationality.
              > We have seen the example of Pakistan , who tried to create a homogenous society in the name of ISLAM and with the slogans “Hum sab musalman hain� ,hoping that religion will be the glue to keep the different ethnicity together even without a cumbersome  democracy. First causality was in the form of  Bangladesh ,  Bengoli ethnicity came out of Islamic glue ,when their  tradition and culture was ridiculed and humiliated by the powerful Punjabi  ethnicity , it was a loss for Pakistan and setback for Muslim ummat.
              > To day in Pakistan , there is very visible divide on ethnic lines , Baloch are all out for freedom and it can happen at any time , Sindhi , Mohajir , Hazara , Pakhtun , Pathan and Punjabi  ethnicity are suspicious with each other . So, it’s clear in this  subcontinent  Ethnic  affiliation is far more emotional issue and people has very clear priority ,ethnicity comes on top of priority compare to religion and nationality .
              > USSR  broke into numerous countries formed basically on ethnic basis , so monolithic and homogenous society  created by the name of nationality can’t survive too.
              >   We can change  our faith in two minutes  ,can change our nationality in manageable time ,  but never our ethnic linage.
              > Hope this will make you little more wiser , NOW , people like you should think , in which way you want us to  behave  and pursue the option . Compromising on our ethnic identity and it’s institution is unacceptable to every young Jat.
              >  
              >



            • Ajay Singh
              I am doing some research on the financial frauds done in last 60 plus years of independence and people who migtared to US / UK shors of Indian origin and with
              Message 6 of 13 , Jun 14, 2010
                I am doing some research on the financial frauds done in last 60 plus years of independence and people who migtared to US / UK shors of Indian origin and with my initial numbers Banias and Khatris lead the list of buisness or financial frauds, then bahmans and then this new groupd of south india. Yesterdya also in Milwauki "Sue" Sachdeva was caught with $31 million embezzelemnt of company money..I am keeping a track of all these big faruds highlihghted by media but they never say about the whole caste like Banias name etc. then why a Jat name to exploited fro small rights fight.
                 
                After Independence all the country wealth have been stolen by these group people and they now wants to keep jats in small villages or relocate them like the british to make grand colonies with a small price for the "Golden" land on the planet of earth. Check Google earth map.

                On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Ajay Singh <asingh71@...> wrote:
                ALL THIS BIG DRAMA IS PURELY A BIG PLAN FOR LAND AND MONEY. They have no love for money and in a way they are spreading a bad name on the whole community for few incidents which may be personal or social and our leaders are sitting idle.Translating and misrepresting facts like they used to do in past. Jats control the best land in 300 KM radius of Delhi and will be the beneficial of any changes in the NCR. If they have bad name and if they try to do good they can be easily exploited that's why they never mention and try to brand other castes in the bad light. Jat image has to restored and we have to prosper financially.


                On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 3:18 PM, Ajay Singh <asingh71@...> wrote:
                Bhagat is a Khatri last name and at anytime of his or his family marriage he must avoided some gotra(read any newspaper). Malik bhai, since the birth of new brahminsim 1000 yeras back, all the so self claimed forward caste just focused on money and purely money. Rajputs flourished because they supported muslim invaders excpet few and copied their tax colletion system and sucked the poor Jat farmers, Brahmins copied the British and now Banias aping the american system of suck the blood of common man in the name of market economy. Even if you try to educate them, their pure focus is to finish "Khaps" so that Jat power can be reduced to dust and Jats can be easily enslaved like in the past. All media is hitting by  using "Jat" name everywhere. They never mentioned that lalit modi a bania with 2 marriages and all bania's fruad very well etc.. They never highlight the caste of Rajput, Khatri, Bania or Bahman but always try to project jat in bad name


                On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 6:18 AM, s.s. rana <drssrana2003@...> wrote:
                 

                Laxman ji has rightly underlined the place of gotra in thelife of certain communities. India is a country of diversities. It is a country where pluraliity is the real living spetrum. But the broader picture is divided into two well identified worlds, viz. the rural and urban worlds, each very different in many ways from the other. The latter, a congomeration of fragmented souls takes pride in labeling itself modern and progressive on the basis of parameters which are superficial and mundane leading to a anonymous individualistic way of life where happiness is a wild goose chase. tThe former on the other hand is a  interdependant emotionally stable and happy society drawing its strenghth from custom and tradition though not averse to the use of technology available any where.Such communities lay great emphasis on their way of life proved since centuries. Social interaction and matrimony are the important areas which set the pattern of life. No wonder then that such rural communities accept and practice voluntarily, for mutual benefit certain code in these areas of their life.Gotra is just one of the parameters among the prohibitions in matrimonial alliances. different cultural or social groups have their own set of such prohibitions which have been observed to enjoy the environment. There is vast amunt of ignorance on the part of the urban bred on such practices and their neceesity.One can only pity such people for their very narrow vision.
                Dr. S,S. Rana    

                --- On Tue, 8/6/10, lr_burdak <lr_burdak@...> wrote:

                From: lr_burdak <lr_burdak@...>
                Subject: [JatHistory] Re: What's Gotra Got To Do With It?
                To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Tuesday, 8 June, 2010, 8:48 PM

                 
                I don't know my own gotra. I didn't even know what gotra meant until recently.

                The above sentence of Chetan Bhagat pained me a lot when I read this article. Why he is feeling so proud on his ignorance of his own lineage. If he does not know his gotra then why should he not try to know it. Can one be an expert of Indian Society by simply writing a few novels in English. If such a person does not realize about the diversity of Indian Society it is unfortunate !!!

                Regards,

                ************ *
                Laxman Burdak
                ************ *

                --- In JatHistory@yahoogro ups.com, arvind kumar <arvindmalik_ 2003@...> wrote:
                >
                > Dear all ,
                >  
                > This is pleasant to see that your TOI column ‘What’s Gotra What To Do With It’ is not featuring on your site under ‘columns’ and ‘blog’ where your past and present columns are available.
                > I seriously consider that you should  say sorry and  be apologies for tarnishing the image of Khap Panchayat without knowing the facts and carried away by the some far from truth , stories of ‘off the shelf’  journalists.
                > Khaps can’t demand apology from you as they are informal institution , no address , no office and no spokesperson … but they represent a culture ,  ethnicity and community.
                > We still believe that you not from the genre of ‘off the shelf’ , you are independent  voice so don’t dilute it  by writing such baseless and far from truth comments sitting in Mumbai.
                > Regards
                > Arvind Malik
                > http://www.arvindma likblog.blogspot .com/

                >
                > --- On Sun, 5/30/10, arvind kumar arvindmalik_ 2003@... wrote:
                >
                >
                > From: arvind kumar arvindmalik_ 2003@...
                > Subject: Re: [JatHistory] What's Gotra Got To Do With It?
                > To: chetan.bhagat@ ..., JatHistory@yahoogro ups.com

                > Cc: tavleensingh@ ..., nandita.sengupta@ ..., letters@..., paramitaghosh@ ..., letters@..., neha@..., letters@..., tavleen.singh@ ..., letters@..., rajdeep.sardesai@ ..., barkha@..., rajeshtripathi@ ..., vineet.journalist@ ..., sushil_gangwar@ ..., Manveer.Saini@ ..., Chetan.Bhagat@ ..., ronojoy.sen@ ..., nbtonline@.. ., mailerservice@ ..., toiblogseditor@ ..., toireporter@ ..., editor@..., info@..., kavitakrish73@ ...
                > Date: Sunday, May 30, 2010, 1:59 PM
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Chetan Bhagat ji , I’m not a revered writer like you still mustering the courage to reply line by line (my comments in blue) of your article .
                > You disappointed greatly because we expect clarity of thought , social awareness and sensibility some one like you, sorry to say your article is insipid ,immature and shows that you haven’t qualified to write on social issues yet,  and probably never be , because it seems you have not seen the Indian society  and don’t have any first hand experience . There is nothing wrong , we have plethora of such thinkers and sociologist around  and fiercely vocal , those have just the birds’ eye view on every social issue , long gone the days when Premchand , Sharatchand and Gurudatt..etc.  could reflect the Indian society in just few lines.
                > Knowingly or unknowing you have joined the chain of pseudo journalist engage in tarnishing the image of khap Panchayats  , like by birth we become Indian  in the  same way every  Jat is defecto member of Khap. And  this compelling reason forcing me to try to bridges some gaps transpire from your article.
                >  
                > I don't know my own gotra. I didn't even know what gotra meant until recently.
                > In what account this is a matter of pride , not able to understand. I hope ,you at least  know name of your grandfather. It’s all in lineage , if our family and we are proud of it we will be aware of it thoroughly  else family will not touch this thread and child will be ignorant. 2ndly , if we incline towards  social subject.. like history, literature this will lead to us automatically to this understanding , if we are incline towards Science subject  , our inclination towards math and science have less to do with  history and anthropology , in your case you were incline to science subject and writer by accident.
                > Many people still don't, but calling it a sub-caste is a good proxy definition.
                > Chetan ji , one thing I will admire about you that you are thoroughly honest in  showing your ignorance and that too on a national daily. Gotra a subcast , such a lame definition can be expected from a foreign journalist who is on one month tour of incredible India or from some Firangi professor teaching about  indian society in some foreign university . Their ignorance is pardonable  , but here a whole lot of writers  and social thinkers  are making   all sort of comments and definition based on sallow knowledge of matter at hand and over simplifying it that it become counter productive.
                >  
                >  I don't know why it was invented, or why it is still relevant.
                > You are right up to some extent that these were “Invented� , Brahmins they invented by the names of rishies. These Brahnmin further invented gotra for rajputs at Agnikund of Mount Abu around  1100 years back.  Gotra is the word mainly used with Brahmin terminology, different people interpret it differently. 
                > For Jats we have clan system   and  organized in 4000 different patrilineal  clans. These clans are started from some historical person , families . Over the time decedents of these person or family grown up and we have clans living in only one village and some big clans live in 70,80 villages.  Our clan is taken as gotra by all non jats those are unaware of clan system.
                > Because of these clan , this give us far rigorous social bonding and we are aware of the house and family from where the whole clan started centuries ago . The eldest member or patriarch of this house and family is known as Baba or Dada like in our family.  So whole bloodline and clan genealogy is in front  of our eyes .  If you visit house of any of these Baba , (ust 100 KM from delhi) ,you will find them among the modest household in village ,but  whole clan give respect to clan’s Baba and this is only power they have . Over the years they never let down their extended family members (clan). That’s the reason we don’t marry in clan because of this strong feeling of brotherhood/ sisterhood among the clan members.
                > So there is vast difference between “Gotra� and Clan , former is just for name sake and some time use during marriage ceremonies , while Clan is family linage , not something imaginary gotra name that has no meaning today.
                > When you are saying “why it is still relevant� . I would say it is very subjective  , it’s upto individuals how much respects and affection he bestow on his family and extended family (clan) . We have cases where all children settled in US and old parents are left behind in India. So instead of being judgmental , lets leave it on the family/community members.
                > As if it wasn't good enough to divide people on caste, we needed one more level of sub-caste slicing to ensure as many Indians hate each other as possible. 
                > Nothing was created to divide and to integrate  , everything happened as a part of social evolution . So ,don’t  take these from prejudice mindset  . And level don’t ends here , level are upto individual  , even born in same family , siblings do differently  , some add the level of BE some will add MBA and they may hate each other for some or other reason  , and this give the birth of word  “sibling rivalry�  . So these individual emotions of hate , love can’t be generalize on the basis of any structure.
                >
                > However, this time it isn't being from different gotras that is a problem, it is being from the same one. Unlike inter-caste marriages that are considered problematic, the problem lies in intra-gotra marriages. These, according to some, will completely tarnish a family's reputation and pose health risks to kids of the wedded couple, due to genetic similarities. People from the same gotra aren't blood related, but marriage between them is not encouraged (read: death sentences are passed). 
                >  
                >
                >
                > Leading the 'no-same-gotra- love' T-shirt brigade are the khap panchayats. The khap system is thousands of years old, and our erstwhile British rulers lived with it and probably encouraged it, to avoid the judicial system being flooded with petty disputes and enabling these to be solved at the local level.
                > Dear Chetan , you really  don’t know history. During  and after 1857 British rulers put Khap Panchayat members under the steam rollers , hang them on nearest tree .
                > Yes , Brits as more rational people didn’t  interfere in the social custom and traditions of our community   that includes widow remarriage (so no sati system) and almost no child marriage.
                > Are issues of property , land holding , water sharing  are petty dispute ? , if any of such issue is not talked timely may start a series of murder in village .  So what are “Real� dispute , wrong parking ?  , because this is only issue urbanite face  and keep city police busy.
                > I hope you haven’t forgotten the term “ Gram Swaraj� ,  a word coined by Mahatam Ghandhi , in  recognition of the competence of the people to manage its own life according to its traditions and customs. It would have been  the real freedom for the people of india  living in ‘7-lakh Village Republics’  , instead of centrally managed beurocracy  with the help of all tools and paraphernalia by which British was ruling the masses , like  Indian Penal code  , and a replica of US,UK,Ireland constitution. 
                > “Read Death Sentences pass� : However a lot of hue and cry is being made about death sentences  but at a time when  video camera has make way to the bedroom of Governor and Swamis , no one has  produced single video clipping of panchayat delivering such sentence in broad day light in front of hundred of people.
                > The British left 63 years ago, but khaps have survived, aided by the patronage of local political parties which in turn find them nice little rural vote banks. 
                > These Khaps  have written references in Vedic text , 2500 BC , Buddhist and Panini text . This was the first attempt of humanity to live in republic formation and till that time they are in practice .  Just imagine how much challenges have been passed by these republic formation .
                > These republic formation bore  the brunt of Muslim invasion and if India still has it’s old faith , major credit goes to these Khaps. Muslim wave started from Arab has the history of changing the socio political landscape of the country it pass thru,  in 100 years , take the example of any country from Arab to  border of Spain.
                >  
                >
                > The khap justice system is neither as rigorous as nor always consistent with the Indian legal system. Nor has it been reformed. However, given political patronage, khaps still thrive in parts of north India. One of the most controversial khap diktats is the no-same-gotra- marriage, something the youth in rural areas find quite baffling. Desperate for reform, the youth had hoped a young leader like their MP Naveen Jindal would come and change draconian rules. But he backed the khap's demand to turn no-same-gotra- marriage into a law. While shocking and disappointing to many, one can see his motivation in backing regressive ideas. It is always easier to tap into traditions and win support. It is much harder to be progressive, change thinking and still take people along. 
                >  I have explained why same clan marriage is considered incest in Jat community or in any Aryan community like Gujjar and Ahir.  Mixed Caste and community having dubious ancestry will not be able to comprehend it  , out of their historical and ancestral guilt they will do what is expected from a frustrated lot , malign the image of impeccable community on false charges . I really don’t know which youth you are talking about I personally never came across any lad who is finding it’s baffling. Just go to any related web page and see what the young Jats are saying , now they are talking about some “direct Action� because they feel  this is the only way left for the deaf ears .
                >
                >
                > Fears of genetic similarities leading to offspring risks do not hold. Apparently, there are historical roots between same gotra people and hence there could be genetic similarities. Those roots may be 10 generations old, and anyone with basic knowledge of genetics and mathematics will tell you that in 10 generations, less than 0.1 per cent of DNA may be sibling-like between two offspring of the same roots. Legality is also a non-issue. Many communities have marriages between cousins, without any legal issues. 
                > I would recommend  you study the findings of  Renowned DNA scientist James D Watson , who endorse the view point of avoiding marriages in the bloodline as it’s reduce the genetic diseases.
                > BBC reported high number of birth related diseases in Muslim community in UK because of marriages in family.
                >
                > Another BBC report suggest high number of microcephalics- babies born in Pakistan because of genetic diseases , also linked to marriages in bloodline.
                >
                >  Parsi are struggling with various genetic diseases and low potency and community has reached a level of wiped out from with in.
                > Dr Praveen C Sobti, a thalassaemic expert at Dayanand Medical College and Hospital (DMCH) found that Punjabi Khatri  are more prone to congenital disease  and to overcome this now only choice they have is inter-cast marriage , because they didn’t care bloodline ,clan and as a results whole community is contaminated with disease.
                > 0.1 percent is one out of 10 or 10%   , the above thalassemic case  is 7.5 % of population  and crossed the signification limit. Doctors suggest  that  ideal situation is 0% gene match , might be impractical but nearer is better.
                >  
                > I’m not able to understand  , at one place you say  that these concepts are outdated and not progressive and on  the other hand you shrug off the genetic  findings , biology and health data.
                > You judge yourself , who is real progressive and who is just prejudice.
                >
                >
                > While chances of the no-same-gotra diktat becoming a law are extremely remote, outright support of medieval traditions by modern era leaders make one shudder about which direction politicians are taking our country.
                > If we leave everything  to  people like you , I tell you where our country will lead , in next 2-4 years you gays will be admiring  and supporting following cases in Indian society too , on the basis of Individual choice.
                > 1-April 30,2010’Dakota news� , In UK grandmother and grandson having baby together.
                > 2-Feb 27,2007,guardian. co.uk ,Brother and sister had 4 children together and brother is saying incest law is outdated and they should be allowed to make their personal choice.
                > These are enough to suggest that we have completed the circle and have started and willing to lead a animal life.
                >  Jindal had earlier fought in court for every citizen's freedom to hoist the Indian flag. When a crusader for individual freedom backs a proposal preventing two human beings to be in love and make a future together, one wonders what our politicians will do to get a few extra votes. Did he make a calculation? Did the number of older people versus younger people (those who actually vote) go in favour of the older people? Is that the only criterion for making political decisions? Or is it about doing the right thing and leading the country to progress? 
                > I really don’t know how did you get the impression that we young are so dumb that  we are not able to read between the lines , and will give a toss to history , ancestry  and scientific reasoning.
                > Will you support marriage of brother and sister in your family in the name of individual freedom ,  if your answer is ‘No’ then you are not honest to your conviction , you also hold some concepts and tradition which you feel right . I hope you will not impose your concepts and tradition on this loving pair , being  a crusader  of  ‘individual Freedom’ even this adrift to immorality and incest.
                >
                > We live in rare times where conflict between the thought of the old and new generations is at its peak.
                > Here is nothing permanent except change ,new generation will be old very soon, and this is happening since the time immemorial  , all these concepts have reached us shows ,that generations passes these from one to next , and time has tested the veracity of these.  we feel , now questions should be asked whether we want a  civilized life or animal life like freedom of gay sex, unnatural sex , sex with in immediate or extended family , live in sex…etc. and last custodian of family value “KHAP’ is under attack by corporate funded NGOs and media houses.
                > We have Indian women leading global corporations. We also have Indian parents who don't want their daughters to study further. I was in Gorakhpur last week, where a young girl in a semi-rural area confessed to me that her father didn't want her to go to college unless it was within a five-kilometre radius of the house. There was no consideration for what the girl wanted to become in life. This is just one example. 
                > Just compare the background  of both the ladies , a lot has been said about Bharat and India in this country  , but this India do almost nothing  to make the Bharat capable enough so that it can use his full potential . Question should be asked why there is no college with in 5 KM , why govt. and establishment not able to generate the feeling of safety and protection in the mind of father of this young girl . We just can’t discard the concerns of a father , who is very much willing to send his daughter but seems a  “trust  deficit� on part of system for safety.
                >
                > From khap rules to individual rules, India-old and India-new battle everyday. India-old is powerful: khaps wield power. However, India-new has better ideas for progress. India-old has dominated thought for the last six decades and, to put it bluntly, not achieved much. We are, despite all our missile and satellite launches, one of the poorest nations on earth. Our biggest cities don't have basics like good water and power. With such a poor report card, it is suprising India-old still makes and imposes rules. The only reason it can do so is difference in power. This is where politicians come in. 
                > Where and how does Khap rules , Mr Chetan .  Do they have any home/office address , any bank account , any ‘rule’ enforcing agency . You know highest per capita income district of India , falls in Khap area “Muzaffarnagar in west UP’ happen to be 8th in the world . And this not  because of  India-new  and it’s BPO and  ITEs  but by old traditional  family labour ‘Agriculture’ . I think rest of questions  you should ask from politicians , as far KHAP (Farmers) is concerns they did more then expected by making Green revolution successful  so that India don’t bag for daily diet.
                > Frankly speaking , I tried my best to make out something from your above Para , but this is more or less  jumbled up thoughts .
                >
                > Politicians have power which they can lend to India-new and back them all the way. They can take a stand, embrace progress, back individual freedom, uphold modern laws and focus on real rural issues (corruption in NREGA, for instance). This will lead to a more prosperous country and a better life for all Indians. Jindal had a chance to do that, to play a part in history, be the role model for rural Haryana's youth. However, he blew it, with his short-sightedness to remain in power. What use is power when it isn't used to help others? 
                >
                > OK, again all chatter  no substance .
                > I think IITs  and similar prominent institutes of other fields are branded as the top dens of ‘India-new’.
                > What is the contribution of India-new to  the society , every indian including beggars fund these institutes  like IIT , in form of taxes he pays . What is outcome , some ready to employ skilled hands for foreign and Indian MNCs.
                > In last 60 years tell me a single invention from IITs , that has touched the life of common Indians , these IITs have  research centers , labs , workshops , have they produced some thing like a better hand pump  , which will take less effort & will give more water , a better bullock cart which can carry much load , a cost and quality effective water purifier for masses to save them from water born diseases , a better power alternative …list is long  , and outcome  is none.
                > So why should society care about the ‘India-new’ , which has turn out to be NPA (non performing Asset)
                > So This branding of “IIT�  and shining “India-new�  may means something  at US Shores ,  but  a Indian farmer may be  aware of PUSA not IIT, et al.
                >  
                >  most of  DMs and SPs of rural district are in bracket of Young , still corruption is  going on in NREGA , NGOs those are crying horse on a non issue like gotra  ,what is their report card in unearthing scam in NREGA , almost none because very soon they become cozy with the system. No NGO really wants to work in field  except initial 2-3 formative years , once they get some recognition and assurance of steady fund from some govt. department  and foreign philanthropy trust , they will look for such issues those can be handled from cozy offices ,TV studio and will help them in news and media glare.
                > Individual freedom has become   favorite phrase in support of animal instinct.  Will this individual freedom will work in some moral and social framework  or this will consider every other “body�  a good for love , and every behavior driven by whim ,lust and desire will be considered a sacrosanct  expression of Individual freedom. If we are to be logically consistent we must embrace and celebrate pretty much every desire or whim that crosses anyone’s heart regarding anything.
                >
                > Meantime, pass whatever diktats and make whatever laws - none of them can take on Mother Nature, and prevent two people from falling in love. Try as much as you can. Meanwhile, i still don't know my gotra. And i hope i never find out. 
                >  Unfortunately it’s not mother nature that driving the thing , it’s all to create a few places like SoHo in India , particularly NCR ,  a lot of corporate funding is going on to buy shrill NGOs and media groups , just look at the coordinated way of campaign against the informal institution KHAP. All and sundry joined this campaign , with the palpable ignorance on the issue…and you have joined too.
                > Following the very relevant t excerpt from one social activist.
                > “The corporate agenda on the question of ‘love, sex and marriage’ has reached a point of decisive assertion. The crusaders feel confident that their past labour is going to pay dividends now or never. The war is at decisive level. They feel emboldened enough to demolish Khaps now openly and pointedly. As custodian of these values Gotra Khaps and Khaps or Bhaichara assemblies, being informal institutions of social interaction and dispute resolution with rural India, also known by many such other names, are in for an intense berating. -both as concept and practice. The shrill chorus to ban these institutions signify this assault. Simultaneously, the dare-devil campaign in favour of gay sex or unnatural sex and opening doors wide for live-in relationship, is that unmistakeable turning point the corporate capital has gained foothold on this accord through its steady and long drawn effort for the past two decades of liberalism to make it truly
                > irretrievable.
                >  
                >  
                > Opening the country to FDI and collaboration regime in the economic field from the West, corporate world needs congenial atmosphere for entertainment of western investors who revel in sexual forays as entertainment. Smooth ground is being prepared by free India with feverish speed and removing all hurdles like family norms, which British rulers had feared to tread in their times. The country is being prepared for these ‘valuable guests’ with such infrastructure in place. Is it a mere sublime coincidence that, on one hand unnatural sex and live-in relations are made acceptable to Indian mind just on the eve of Commonwealth Games and, on the other a high pitch campaign is released for banning the custodians of family ethos like Gotra Khaps in tow? You are in a hurry to ban beggars in the Capital, de-criminalising gay sex, legitimising live-in relationship and clamping ban on Khaps in the interest of corporate capital to gain fabulous profits simply
                > because these institutions do not approve of an alien agenda!! Is it not a part of the same game plan? Pl. deny, if it is wrong.�
                >  
                >
                > As far your Gotra imbroglio is concern, that you have to resolve yourself  as it’s your personal issue , it’s hardly matter to anybody ,  if you know the name of your Gotra or not , or for that matter name of your father and grand father….after all it’s individual choice.
                > At last I will take the opportunity to clear a few points.
                > Bloodline make the clan members brother and sister , and we have our bloodline and clan linage very clear , so same clan marriage is  unacceptable in  Jat communities .
                > For us we have options lined up
                > (1)    Easiest way is to accommodate the tradition of the  community ,  4 -5 Crore in numbers , in the Hindu Marriage act . HMA also acknowledge “Custom and usage signify any rule which having been continuously and uniformly observed for a long time ,has obtained the force of law among Hindus in any local area , tribe ,community, group of family.�   ( WE are proposing amendment for Jats only , we are not concerned  in what custom other communities indulge in)
                > (2)    Next option is , We are ready to severe our association with Hindu religion , we were always on the fringe and were loggerhead with the puranic/Bhrahmenica l  mindset . We never bow down  to rigid and inhumane practices ,  massacre of Buddhists  in the name of religion , sacrifice of animals , ritual on the basis of false purans , Sati … list is long . On the contrary we observes widow marriage . All these things kept us on the fringe of Hindu religion and were never a complete Hindu.
                >        So if people will keep on imposing us the custom of Hindus , under the disguise of Hindu   marriage act . We should call us ourselves non-Hindu  , and demand  our right as minority religion , like Sikh  & Muslim.
                > (3)    Finally , In the case of continuous  oppression  by the hand of these Hindus , in their pursuit of creating a homogenous religion and  from state who don’t want to acknowledge our ethnic  identity and culture and want to force the  constitutional clause of marriage , those are against the belief and ethos of our community. We should approach the UN and other world bodies and raise the issue that  in Indian state our ethnic community’s culture and tradition is not safe and not being protected and we are facing  soft ethnic cleansing,  so  need a separate homeland , like Kurd are demanding in Iraq and Turkey , Jews got Israel .
                >  
                >   Indian subcontinent is the house of may nations and ethnic groups  . These groups have their own customs ,  tradition  , way of life and they put more loyalties and pride in their ethnicity then their religion and nationality.
                > We have seen the example of Pakistan , who tried to create a homogenous society in the name of ISLAM and with the slogans “Hum sab musalman hain� ,hoping that religion will be the glue to keep the different ethnicity together even without a cumbersome  democracy. First causality was in the form of  Bangladesh ,  Bengoli ethnicity came out of Islamic glue ,when their  tradition and culture was ridiculed and humiliated by the powerful Punjabi  ethnicity , it was a loss for Pakistan and setback for Muslim ummat.
                > To day in Pakistan , there is very visible divide on ethnic lines , Baloch are all out for freedom and it can happen at any time , Sindhi , Mohajir , Hazara , Pakhtun , Pathan and Punjabi  ethnicity are suspicious with each other . So, it’s clear in this  subcontinent  Ethnic  affiliation is far more emotional issue and people has very clear priority ,ethnicity comes on top of priority compare to religion and nationality .
                > USSR  broke into numerous countries formed basically on ethnic basis , so monolithic and homogenous society  created by the name of nationality can’t survive too.
                >   We can change  our faith in two minutes  ,can change our nationality in manageable time ,  but never our ethnic linage.
                > Hope this will make you little more wiser , NOW , people like you should think , in which way you want us to  behave  and pursue the option . Compromising on our ethnic identity and it’s institution is unacceptable to every young Jat.
                >  
                >




              • sudhir kumar
                All these days there is furore created by the city dwellers in india about the khap panchayts.I wish to ask them if there is anything called indian left in
                Message 7 of 13 , Jun 20, 2010
                  All these days there is furore created by the city dwellers in india about the khap panchayts.I wish to ask them if there is anything called indian left in these modern indians.they doesnt speak their own language, they wear exotic cloths,they eat pizza and degrade roti.these guys seems to have a very low self esteem and their is something very serios about their self belief.
                  these guys who are making such hooplah about khap panchayts have no relations with villages and they seems to be lacking in having true indian custom roots.they are the same men who advocates indian education and send their own wards to convent. they fashionably become indian after watching hum apke hain kaun and DDLJ,they have no idea of customs of marriages but claims to be mentor of indian custom.
                  These intellectuals are curse of maccaulay , they have only one way and viewpoint and that is purely english point view.What a shame that till date we have borrowed everything for this great  country. IPC,CRPC,marriage laws , administrative services,even constitution.
                  the so called intellectuals of this country couldnt give even a single thing of truly indian origin.
                  the day is not far when these shameless fellow will advocate marriages of brother and sisters . day by day this great country of ours is being filled with headless morons lacking in self esteem.
                  they lack conviction and advocate rationality and human rights.rationality is a prelude to fear and is a tool of weak, if columbus doubted his conviction and self belief then he would have ended at sea shore making plans and doubting them in the light of rationality. they forget that society is manifestation of practices and emotions of a particular group.
                  time has come to tell them that it was jats who guarded this country against alexender and taimur  lang,it was jats who defeated brtish and mughals .
                  self esteem stems from conviction and jats have plenty of both. dont forget that every time delhi was invaded it was only jats and its khaps who united and fought the invaders .
                  It is a shame for this country that people who do justice have full knowlede of british rational laws but do not know about the roots of this country, it is a shame that a time has come when fashinable NGOs have become vanguards of indian custom and society .
                  in these tough times only our proud heritage and self esteem will save jats from the tentacles of these PAPPUS of indian metro.

                  --- On Tue, 15/6/10, Ajay Singh <asingh71@...> wrote:

                  From: Ajay Singh <asingh71@...>
                  Subject: Re: [JatHistory] Re: What's Gotra Got To Do With It?
                  To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Tuesday, 15 June, 2010, 1:03 AM

                   
                  I am doing some research on the financial frauds done in last 60 plus years of independence and people who migtared to US / UK shors of Indian origin and with my initial numbers Banias and Khatris lead the list of buisness or financial frauds, then bahmans and then this new groupd of south india. Yesterdya also in Milwauki "Sue" Sachdeva was caught with $31 million embezzelemnt of company money..I am keeping a track of all these big faruds highlihghted by media but they never say about the whole caste like Banias name etc. then why a Jat name to exploited fro small rights fight.
                   
                  After Independence all the country wealth have been stolen by these group people and they now wants to keep jats in small villages or relocate them like the british to make grand colonies with a small price for the "Golden" land on the planet of earth. Check Google earth map.

                  On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Ajay Singh <asingh71@gmail. com> wrote:
                  ALL THIS BIG DRAMA IS PURELY A BIG PLAN FOR LAND AND MONEY. They have no love for money and in a way they are spreading a bad name on the whole community for few incidents which may be personal or social and our leaders are sitting idle.Translating and misrepresting facts like they used to do in past. Jats control the best land in 300 KM radius of Delhi and will be the beneficial of any changes in the NCR. If they have bad name and if they try to do good they can be easily exploited that's why they never mention and try to brand other castes in the bad light. Jat image has to restored and we have to prosper financially.


                  On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 3:18 PM, Ajay Singh <asingh71@gmail. com> wrote:
                  Bhagat is a Khatri last name and at anytime of his or his family marriage he must avoided some gotra(read any newspaper). Malik bhai, since the birth of new brahminsim 1000 yeras back, all the so self claimed forward caste just focused on money and purely money. Rajputs flourished because they supported muslim invaders excpet few and copied their tax colletion system and sucked the poor Jat farmers, Brahmins copied the British and now Banias aping the american system of suck the blood of common man in the name of market economy. Even if you try to educate them, their pure focus is to finish "Khaps" so that Jat power can be reduced to dust and Jats can be easily enslaved like in the past. All media is hitting by  using "Jat" name everywhere. They never mentioned that lalit modi a bania with 2 marriages and all bania's fruad very well etc.. They never highlight the caste of Rajput, Khatri, Bania or Bahman but always try to project jat in bad name


                  On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 6:18 AM, s.s. rana <drssrana2003@ yahoo.co. in> wrote:
                   
                  Laxman ji has rightly underlined the place of gotra in thelife of certain communities. India is a country of diversities. It is a country where pluraliity is the real living spetrum. But the broader picture is divided into two well identified worlds, viz. the rural and urban worlds, each very different in many ways from the other. The latter, a congomeration of fragmented souls takes pride in labeling itself modern and progressive on the basis of parameters which are superficial and mundane leading to a anonymous individualistic way of life where happiness is a wild goose chase. tThe former on the other hand is a  interdependant emotionally stable and happy society drawing its strenghth from custom and tradition though not averse to the use of technology available any where.Such communities lay great emphasis on their way of life proved since centuries. Social interaction and matrimony are the important areas which set the pattern of life. No wonder then that such rural communities accept and practice voluntarily, for mutual benefit certain code in these areas of their life.Gotra is just one of the parameters among the prohibitions in matrimonial alliances. different cultural or social groups have their own set of such prohibitions which have been observed to enjoy the environment. There is vast amunt of ignorance on the part of the urban bred on such practices and their neceesity.One can only pity such people for their very narrow vision.
                  Dr. S,S. Rana    

                  --- On Tue, 8/6/10, lr_burdak <lr_burdak@yahoo. com> wrote:

                  From: lr_burdak <lr_burdak@yahoo. com>
                  Subject: [JatHistory] Re: What's Gotra Got To Do With It?
                  To: JatHistory@yahoogro ups.com
                  Date: Tuesday, 8 June, 2010, 8:48 PM

                   
                  I don't know my own gotra. I didn't even know what gotra meant until recently.

                  The above sentence of Chetan Bhagat pained me a lot when I read this article. Why he is feeling so proud on his ignorance of his own lineage. If he does not know his gotra then why should he not try to know it. Can one be an expert of Indian Society by simply writing a few novels in English. If such a person does not realize about the diversity of Indian Society it is unfortunate !!!

                  Regards,

                  ************ *
                  Laxman Burdak
                  ************ *

                  --- In JatHistory@yahoogro ups.com, arvind kumar <arvindmalik_ 2003@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear all ,
                  >  
                  > This is pleasant to see that your TOI column ‘What’s Gotra What To Do With It’ is not featuring on your site under ‘columns’ and ‘blog’ where your past and present columns are available.
                  > I seriously consider that you should  say sorry and  be apologies for tarnishing the image of Khap Panchayat without knowing the facts and carried away by the some far from truth , stories of ‘off the shelf’  journalists.
                  > Khaps can’t demand apology from you as they are informal institution , no address , no office and no spokesperson … but they represent a culture ,  ethnicity and community.
                  > We still believe that you not from the genre of ‘off the shelf’ , you are independent  voice so don’t dilute it  by writing such baseless and far from truth comments sitting in Mumbai.
                  > Regards
                  > Arvind Malik
                  > http://www.arvindma likblog.blogspot .com/

                  >
                  > --- On Sun, 5/30/10, arvind kumar arvindmalik_ 2003@... wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > From: arvind kumar arvindmalik_ 2003@...
                  > Subject: Re: [JatHistory] What's Gotra Got To Do With It?
                  > To: chetan.bhagat@ ..., JatHistory@yahoogro ups.com

                  > Cc: tavleensingh@ ..., nandita.sengupta@ ..., letters@..., paramitaghosh@ ..., letters@..., neha@..., letters@..., tavleen.singh@ ..., letters@..., rajdeep.sardesai@ ..., barkha@..., rajeshtripathi@ ..., vineet.journalist@ ..., sushil_gangwar@ ..., Manveer.Saini@ ..., Chetan.Bhagat@ ..., ronojoy.sen@ ..., nbtonline@.. ., mailerservice@ ..., toiblogseditor@ ..., toireporter@ ..., editor@..., info@..., kavitakrish73@ ...
                  > Date: Sunday, May 30, 2010, 1:59 PM
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Chetan Bhagat ji , I’m not a revered writer like you still mustering the courage to reply line by line (my comments in blue) of your article .
                  > You disappointed greatly because we expect clarity of thought , social awareness and sensibility some one like you, sorry to say your article is insipid ,immature and shows that you haven’t qualified to write on social issues yet,  and probably never be , because it seems you have not seen the Indian society  and don’t have any first hand experience . There is nothing wrong , we have plethora of such thinkers and sociologist around  and fiercely vocal , those have just the birds’ eye view on every social issue , long gone the days when Premchand , Sharatchand and Gurudatt..etc.  could reflect the Indian society in just few lines.
                  > Knowingly or unknowing you have joined the chain of pseudo journalist engage in tarnishing the image of khap Panchayats  , like by birth we become Indian  in the  same way every  Jat is defecto member of Khap. And  this compelling reason forcing me to try to bridges some gaps transpire from your article.
                  >  
                  > I don't know my own gotra. I didn't even know what gotra meant until recently.
                  > In what account this is a matter of pride , not able to understand. I hope ,you at least  know name of your grandfather. It’s all in lineage , if our family and we are proud of it we will be aware of it thoroughly  else family will not touch this thread and child will be ignorant. 2ndly , if we incline towards  social subject.. like history, literature this will lead to us automatically to this understanding , if we are incline towards Science subject  , our inclination towards math and science have less to do with  history and anthropology , in your case you were incline to science subject and writer by accident.
                  > Many people still don't, but calling it a sub-caste is a good proxy definition.
                  > Chetan ji , one thing I will admire about you that you are thoroughly honest in  showing your ignorance and that too on a national daily. Gotra a subcast , such a lame definition can be expected from a foreign journalist who is on one month tour of incredible India or from some Firangi professor teaching about  indian society in some foreign university . Their ignorance is pardonable  , but here a whole lot of writers  and social thinkers  are making   all sort of comments and definition based on sallow knowledge of matter at hand and over simplifying it that it become counter productive.
                  >  
                  >  I don't know why it was invented, or why it is still relevant.
                  > You are right up to some extent that these were “Invented� , Brahmins they invented by the names of rishies. These Brahnmin further invented gotra for rajputs at Agnikund of Mount Abu around  1100 years back.  Gotra is the word mainly used with Brahmin terminology, different people interpret it differently. 
                  > For Jats we have clan system   and  organized in 4000 different patrilineal  clans. These clans are started from some historical person , families . Over the time decedents of these person or family grown up and we have clans living in only one village and some big clans live in 70,80 villages.  Our clan is taken as gotra by all non jats those are unaware of clan system.
                  > Because of these clan , this give us far rigorous social bonding and we are aware of the house and family from where the whole clan started centuries ago . The eldest member or patriarch of this house and family is known as Baba or Dada like in our family.  So whole bloodline and clan genealogy is in front  of our eyes .  If you visit house of any of these Baba , (ust 100 KM from delhi) ,you will find them among the modest household in village ,but  whole clan give respect to clan’s Baba and this is only power they have . Over the years they never let down their extended family members (clan). That’s the reason we don’t marry in clan because of this strong feeling of brotherhood/ sisterhood among the clan members.
                  > So there is vast difference between “Gotra� and Clan , former is just for name sake and some time use during marriage ceremonies , while Clan is family linage , not something imaginary gotra name that has no meaning today.
                  > When you are saying “why it is still relevant� . I would say it is very subjective  , it’s upto individuals how much respects and affection he bestow on his family and extended family (clan) . We have cases where all children settled in US and old parents are left behind in India. So instead of being judgmental , lets leave it on the family/community members.
                  > As if it wasn't good enough to divide people on caste, we needed one more level of sub-caste slicing to ensure as many Indians hate each other as possible. 
                  > Nothing was created to divide and to integrate  , everything happened as a part of social evolution . So ,don’t  take these from prejudice mindset  . And level don’t ends here , level are upto individual  , even born in same family , siblings do differently  , some add the level of BE some will add MBA and they may hate each other for some or other reason  , and this give the birth of word  “sibling rivalry�  . So these individual emotions of hate , love can’t be generalize on the basis of any structure.
                  >
                  > However, this time it isn't being from different gotras that is a problem, it is being from the same one. Unlike inter-caste marriages that are considered problematic, the problem lies in intra-gotra marriages. These, according to some, will completely tarnish a family's reputation and pose health risks to kids of the wedded couple, due to genetic similarities. People from the same gotra aren't blood related, but marriage between them is not encouraged (read: death sentences are passed). 
                  >  
                  >
                  >
                  > Leading the 'no-same-gotra- love' T-shirt brigade are the khap panchayats. The khap system is thousands of years old, and our erstwhile British rulers lived with it and probably encouraged it, to avoid the judicial system being flooded with petty disputes and enabling these to be solved at the local level.
                  > Dear Chetan , you really  don’t know history. During  and after 1857 British rulers put Khap Panchayat members under the steam rollers , hang them on nearest tree .
                  > Yes , Brits as more rational people didn’t  interfere in the social custom and traditions of our community   that includes widow remarriage (so no sati system) and almost no child marriage.
                  > Are issues of property , land holding , water sharing  are petty dispute ? , if any of such issue is not talked timely may start a series of murder in village .  So what are “Real� dispute , wrong parking ?  , because this is only issue urbanite face  and keep city police busy.
                  > I hope you haven’t forgotten the term “ Gram Swaraj� ,  a word coined by Mahatam Ghandhi , in  recognition of the competence of the people to manage its own life according to its traditions and customs. It would have been  the real freedom for the people of india  living in ‘7-lakh Village Republics’  , instead of centrally managed beurocracy  with the help of all tools and paraphernalia by which British was ruling the masses , like  Indian Penal code  , and a replica of US,UK,Ireland constitution. 
                  > “Read Death Sentences pass� : However a lot of hue and cry is being made about death sentences  but at a time when  video camera has make way to the bedroom of Governor and Swamis , no one has  produced single video clipping of panchayat delivering such sentence in broad day light in front of hundred of people.
                  > The British left 63 years ago, but khaps have survived, aided by the patronage of local political parties which in turn find them nice little rural vote banks. 
                  > These Khaps  have written references in Vedic text , 2500 BC , Buddhist and Panini text . This was the first attempt of humanity to live in republic formation and till that time they are in practice .  Just imagine how much challenges have been passed by these republic formation .
                  > These republic formation bore  the brunt of Muslim invasion and if India still has it’s old faith , major credit goes to these Khaps. Muslim wave started from Arab has the history of changing the socio political landscape of the country it pass thru,  in 100 years , take the example of any country from Arab to  border of Spain.
                  >  
                  >
                  > The khap justice system is neither as rigorous as nor always consistent with the Indian legal system. Nor has it been reformed. However, given political patronage, khaps still thrive in parts of north India. One of the most controversial khap diktats is the no-same-gotra- marriage, something the youth in rural areas find quite baffling. Desperate for reform, the youth had hoped a young leader like their MP Naveen Jindal would come and change draconian rules. But he backed the khap's demand to turn no-same-gotra- marriage into a law. While shocking and disappointing to many, one can see his motivation in backing regressive ideas. It is always easier to tap into traditions and win support. It is much harder to be progressive, change thinking and still take people along. 
                  >  I have explained why same clan marriage is considered incest in Jat community or in any Aryan community like Gujjar and Ahir.  Mixed Caste and community having dubious ancestry will not be able to comprehend it  , out of their historical and ancestral guilt they will do what is expected from a frustrated lot , malign the image of impeccable community on false charges . I really don’t know which youth you are talking about I personally never came across any lad who is finding it’s baffling. Just go to any related web page and see what the young Jats are saying , now they are talking about some “direct Action� because they feel  this is the only way left for the deaf ears .
                  >
                  >
                  > Fears of genetic similarities leading to offspring risks do not hold. Apparently, there are historical roots between same gotra people and hence there could be genetic similarities. Those roots may be 10 generations old, and anyone with basic knowledge of genetics and mathematics will tell you that in 10 generations, less than 0.1 per cent of DNA may be sibling-like between two offspring of the same roots. Legality is also a non-issue. Many communities have marriages between cousins, without any legal issues. 
                  > I would recommend  you study the findings of  Renowned DNA scientist James D Watson , who endorse the view point of avoiding marriages in the bloodline as it’s reduce the genetic diseases.
                  > BBC reported high number of birth related diseases in Muslim community in UK because of marriages in family.
                  >
                  > Another BBC report suggest high number of microcephalics- babies born in Pakistan because of genetic diseases , also linked to marriages in bloodline.
                  >
                  >  Parsi are struggling with various genetic diseases and low potency and community has reached a level of wiped out from with in.
                  > Dr Praveen C Sobti, a thalassaemic expert at Dayanand Medical College and Hospital (DMCH) found that Punjabi Khatri  are more prone to congenital disease  and to overcome this now only choice they have is inter-cast marriage , because they didn’t care bloodline ,clan and as a results whole community is contaminated with disease.
                  > 0.1 percent is one out of 10 or 10%   , the above thalassemic case  is 7.5 % of population  and crossed the signification limit. Doctors suggest  that  ideal situation is 0% gene match , might be impractical but nearer is better.
                  >  
                  > I’m not able to understand  , at one place you say  that these concepts are outdated and not progressive and on  the other hand you shrug off the genetic  findings , biology and health data.
                  > You judge yourself , who is real progressive and who is just prejudice.
                  >
                  >
                  > While chances of the no-same-gotra diktat becoming a law are extremely remote, outright support of medieval traditions by modern era leaders make one shudder about which direction politicians are taking our country.
                  > If we leave everything  to  people like you , I tell you where our country will lead , in next 2-4 years you gays will be admiring  and supporting following cases in Indian society too , on the basis of Individual choice.
                  > 1-April 30,2010’Dakota news� , In UK grandmother and grandson having baby together.
                  > 2-Feb 27,2007,guardian. co.uk ,Brother and sister had 4 children together and brother is saying incest law is outdated and they should be allowed to make their personal choice.
                  > These are enough to suggest that we have completed the circle and have started and willing to lead a animal life.
                  >  Jindal had earlier fought in court for every citizen's freedom to hoist the Indian flag. When a crusader for individual freedom backs a proposal preventing two human beings to be in love and make a future together, one wonders what our politicians will do to get a few extra votes. Did he make a calculation? Did the number of older people versus younger people (those who actually vote) go in favour of the older people? Is that the only criterion for making political decisions? Or is it about doing the right thing and leading the country to progress? 
                  > I really don’t know how did you get the impression that we young are so dumb that  we are not able to read between the lines , and will give a toss to history , ancestry  and scientific reasoning.
                  > Will you support marriage of brother and sister in your family in the name of individual freedom ,  if your answer is ‘No’ then you are not honest to your conviction , you also hold some concepts and tradition which you feel right . I hope you will not impose your concepts and tradition on this loving pair , being  a crusader  of  ‘individual Freedom’ even this adrift to immorality and incest.
                  >
                  > We live in rare times where conflict between the thought of the old and new generations is at its peak.
                  > Here is nothing permanent except change ,new generation will be old very soon, and this is happening since the time immemorial  , all these concepts have reached us shows ,that generations passes these from one to next , and time has tested the veracity of these.  we feel , now questions should be asked whether we want a  civilized life or animal life like freedom of gay sex, unnatural sex , sex with in immediate or extended family , live in sex…etc. and last custodian of family value “KHAP’ is under attack by corporate funded NGOs and media houses.
                  > We have Indian women leading global corporations. We also have Indian parents who don't want their daughters to study further. I was in Gorakhpur last week, where a young girl in a semi-rural area confessed to me that her father didn't want her to go to college unless it was within a five-kilometre radius of the house. There was no consideration for what the girl wanted to become in life. This is just one example. 
                  > Just compare the background  of both the ladies , a lot has been said about Bharat and India in this country  , but this India do almost nothing  to make the Bharat capable enough so that it can use his full potential . Question should be asked why there is no college with in 5 KM , why govt. and establishment not able to generate the feeling of safety and protection in the mind of father of this young girl . We just can’t discard the concerns of a father , who is very much willing to send his daughter but seems a  “trust  deficit� on part of system for safety.
                  >
                  > From khap rules to individual rules, India-old and India-new battle everyday. India-old is powerful: khaps wield power. However, India-new has better ideas for progress. India-old has dominated thought for the last six decades and, to put it bluntly, not achieved much. We are, despite all our missile and satellite launches, one of the poorest nations on earth. Our biggest cities don't have basics like good water and power. With such a poor report card, it is suprising India-old still makes and imposes rules. The only reason it can do so is difference in power. This is where politicians come in. 
                  > Where and how does Khap rules , Mr Chetan .  Do they have any home/office address , any bank account , any ‘rule’ enforcing agency . You know highest per capita income district of India , falls in Khap area “Muzaffarnagar in west UP’ happen to be 8th in the world . And this not  because of  India-new  and it’s BPO and  ITEs  but by old traditional  family labour ‘Agriculture’ . I think rest of questions  you should ask from politicians , as far KHAP (Farmers) is concerns they did more then expected by making Green revolution successful  so that India don’t bag for daily diet.
                  > Frankly speaking , I tried my best to make out something from your above Para , but this is more or less  jumbled up thoughts .
                  >
                  > Politicians have power which they can lend to India-new and back them all the way. They can take a stand, embrace progress, back individual freedom, uphold modern laws and focus on real rural issues (corruption in NREGA, for instance). This will lead to a more prosperous country and a better life for all Indians. Jindal had a chance to do that, to play a part in history, be the role model for rural Haryana's youth. However, he blew it, with his short-sightedness to remain in power. What use is power when it isn't used to help others? 
                  >
                  > OK, again all chatter  no substance .
                  > I think IITs  and similar prominent institutes of other fields are branded as the top dens of ‘India-new’.
                  > What is the contribution of India-new to  the society , every indian including beggars fund these institutes  like IIT , in form of taxes he pays . What is outcome , some ready to employ skilled hands for foreign and Indian MNCs.
                  > In last 60 years tell me a single invention from IITs , that has touched the life of common Indians , these IITs have  research centers , labs , workshops , have they produced some thing like a better hand pump  , which will take less effort & will give more water , a better bullock cart which can carry much load , a cost and quality effective water purifier for masses to save them from water born diseases , a better power alternative …list is long  , and outcome  is none.
                  > So why should society care about the ‘India-new’ , which has turn out to be NPA (non performing Asset)
                  > So This branding of “IIT�  and shining “India-new�  may means something  at US Shores ,  but  a Indian farmer may be  aware of PUSA not IIT, et al.
                  >  
                  >  most of  DMs and SPs of rural district are in bracket of Young , still corruption is  going on in NREGA , NGOs those are crying horse on a non issue like gotra  ,what is their report card in unearthing scam in NREGA , almost none because very soon they become cozy with the system. No NGO really wants to work in field  except initial 2-3 formative years , once they get some recognition and assurance of steady fund from some govt. department  and foreign philanthropy trust , they will look for such issues those can be handled from cozy offices ,TV studio and will help them in news and media glare.
                  > Individual freedom has become   favorite phrase in support of animal instinct.  Will this individual freedom will work in some moral and social framework  or this will consider every other “body�  a good for love , and every behavior driven by whim ,lust and desire will be considered a sacrosanct  expression of Individual freedom. If we are to be logically consistent we must embrace and celebrate pretty much every desire or whim that crosses anyone’s heart regarding anything.
                  >
                  > Meantime, pass whatever diktats and make whatever laws - none of them can take on Mother Nature, and prevent two people from falling in love. Try as much as you can. Meanwhile, i still don't know my gotra. And i hope i never find out. 
                  >  Unfortunately it’s not mother nature that driving the thing , it’s all to create a few places like SoHo in India , particularly NCR ,  a lot of corporate funding is going on to buy shrill NGOs and media groups , just look at the coordinated way of campaign against the informal institution KHAP. All and sundry joined this campaign , with the palpable ignorance on the issue…and you have joined too.
                  > Following the very relevant t excerpt from one social activist.
                  > “The corporate agenda on the question of ‘love, sex and marriage’ has reached a point of decisive assertion. The crusaders feel confident that their past labour is going to pay dividends now or never. The war is at decisive level. They feel emboldened enough to demolish Khaps now openly and pointedly. As custodian of these values Gotra Khaps and Khaps or Bhaichara assemblies, being informal institutions of social interaction and dispute resolution with rural India, also known by many such other names, are in for an intense berating. -both as concept and practice. The shrill chorus to ban these institutions signify this assault. Simultaneously, the dare-devil campaign in favour of gay sex or unnatural sex and opening doors wide for live-in relationship, is that unmistakeable turning point the corporate capital has gained foothold on this accord through its steady and long drawn effort for the past two decades of liberalism to make it truly
                  > irretrievable.
                  >  
                  >  
                  > Opening the country to FDI and collaboration regime in the economic field from the West, corporate world needs congenial atmosphere for entertainment of western investors who revel in sexual forays as entertainment. Smooth ground is being prepared by free India with feverish speed and removing all hurdles like family norms, which British rulers had feared to tread in their times. The country is being prepared for these ‘valuable guests’ with such infrastructure in place. Is it a mere sublime coincidence that, on one hand unnatural sex and live-in relations are made acceptable to Indian mind just on the eve of Commonwealth Games and, on the other a high pitch campaign is released for banning the custodians of family ethos like Gotra Khaps in tow? You are in a hurry to ban beggars in the Capital, de-criminalising gay sex, legitimising live-in relationship and clamping ban on Khaps in the interest of corporate capital to gain fabulous profits simply
                  > because these institutions do not approve of an alien agenda!! Is it not a part of the same game plan? Pl. deny, if it is wrong.�
                  >  
                  >
                  > As far your Gotra imbroglio is concern, that you have to resolve yourself  as it’s your personal issue , it’s hardly matter to anybody ,  if you know the name of your Gotra or not , or for that matter name of your father and grand father….after all it’s individual choice.
                  > At last I will take the opportunity to clear a few points.
                  > Bloodline make the clan members brother and sister , and we have our bloodline and clan linage very clear , so same clan marriage is  unacceptable in  Jat communities .
                  > For us we have options lined up
                  > (1)    Easiest way is to accommodate the tradition of the  community ,  4 -5 Crore in numbers , in the Hindu Marriage act . HMA also acknowledge “Custom and usage signify any rule which having been continuously and uniformly observed for a long time ,has obtained the force of law among Hindus in any local area , tribe ,community, group of family.�   ( WE are proposing amendment for Jats only , we are not concerned  in what custom other communities indulge in)
                  > (2)    Next option is , We are ready to severe our association with Hindu religion , we were always on the fringe and were loggerhead with the puranic/Bhrahmenica l  mindset . We never bow down  to rigid and inhumane practices ,  massacre of Buddhists  in the name of religion , sacrifice of animals , ritual on the basis of false purans , Sati … list is long . On the contrary we observes widow marriage . All these things kept us on the fringe of Hindu religion and were never a complete Hindu.
                  >        So if people will keep on imposing us the custom of Hindus , under the disguise of Hindu   marriage act . We should call us ourselves non-Hindu  , and demand  our right as minority religion , like Sikh  & Muslim.
                  > (3)    Finally , In the case of continuous  oppression  by the hand of these Hindus , in their pursuit of creating a homogenous religion and  from state who don’t want to acknowledge our ethnic  identity and culture and want to force the  constitutional clause of marriage , those are against the belief and ethos of our community. We should approach the UN and other world bodies and raise the issue that  in Indian state our ethnic community’s culture and tradition is not safe and not being protected and we are facing  soft ethnic cleansing,  so  need a separate homeland , like Kurd are demanding in Iraq and Turkey , Jews got Israel .
                  >  
                  >   Indian subcontinent is the house of may nations and ethnic groups  . These groups have their own customs ,  tradition  , way of life and they put more loyalties and pride in their ethnicity then their religion and nationality.
                  > We have seen the example of Pakistan , who tried to create a homogenous society in the name of ISLAM and with the slogans “Hum sab musalman hain� ,hoping that religion will be the glue to keep the different ethnicity together even without a cumbersome  democracy. First causality was in the form of  Bangladesh ,  Bengoli ethnicity came out of Islamic glue ,when their  tradition and culture was ridiculed and humiliated by the powerful Punjabi  ethnicity , it was a loss for Pakistan and setback for Muslim ummat.
                  > To day in Pakistan , there is very visible divide on ethnic lines , Baloch are all out for freedom and it can happen at any time , Sindhi , Mohajir , Hazara , Pakhtun , Pathan and Punjabi  ethnicity are suspicious with each other . So, it’s clear in this  subcontinent  Ethnic  affiliation is far more emotional issue and people has very clear priority ,ethnicity comes on top of priority compare to religion and nationality .
                  > USSR  broke into numerous countries formed basically on ethnic basis , so monolithic and homogenous society  created by the name of nationality can’t survive too.
                  >   We can change  our faith in two minutes  ,can change our nationality in manageable time ,  but never our ethnic linage.
                  > Hope this will make you little more wiser , NOW , people like you should think , in which way you want us to  behave  and pursue the option . Compromising on our ethnic identity and it’s institution is unacceptable to every young Jat.
                  >  
                  >





                • Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.