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Re: Maharaja Ranjit Singh - a hero to us all

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  • historian_geek
    what difference does that make? I watched the website Simranji posted about Dna. It says all of us originated in Africa, including Europeans:-)
    Message 1 of 84 , Oct 5, 2009
      what difference does that make? I watched the website Simranji posted about Dna.

      It says all of us originated in Africa, including Europeans:-)

      --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, Singh - Jat <jatrajput@...> wrote:
      >
      > Simran Ji,
      >  
      > Please substantiate the X, N, W, U5a MtDNA MtDNA haplotypes among Jats/Punjabis.  Could you please reference your information.   I would like to post it on another group that says Jats are not from beyond the Khyber pass. 
      >  
      > Thanks
      >
      > --- On Mon, 9/21/09, Simranjit Singh Sandhu <simranjits@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > From: Simranjit Singh Sandhu <simranjits@...>
      > Subject: Re: [JatHistory] Re: Maharaja Ranjit Singh - a hero to us all
      > To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 3:33 PM
      >
      >
      >  
      >
      >
      >
      > We need more jats testing their dna , at the very least a str test with ftdna. 23andme which covers the autosomal range is much better because it covers all the chromosomes( not whole sequence though). For example my highest autosomal match is a pakistani lady of butt kashmiri origin, only after her do i have my next match who is a jhaj Jatt. Brahmins have varied Y-dna , but mtdna is generally R or M, i know this because i'm sharing with about 25 south asians , the bulk being brahmins of some sort.
      >
      >
      > One thing i've noticed is that punjabis seem to have very interesting mtdna , y-dna is most of the time r1a1a( which is barely interesting since it is all over india and europe). But we get X, N,W, U5a mtdna which contradicts what some historians claim that jat established in punjab by marrying local females. If that were the case , we should be seeing more M's in the punjab/jatt gene pool.
      >
      >
      > On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 11:20 PM, historian_geek <histriographer@ gmail.com> wrote:
      >
      >
      >  
      >
      >
      >
      > Hmm...I see...but what if Jats had borrowed from the same gene pool as did Sansis, Rajputs and some other non-Jat tribes who have great morphometric similarity with Jats.
      >
      > We are assuming that Jats will have unique Y-str matches all across not shared by other tribes. Is there a study which has measured this aspect? Not sure of this...maybe you can guide...I'd love to learn more about it. I don't know much about this aspect.
      >
      > The study I referred to shows there is considerable genetic distance between Jats belonging to various regions....but it is based on morphometric analysis , not DNA. DNA study will be more interesting. ...
      >
      >
      > --- In JatHistory@yahoogro ups.com, Simranjit Singh Sandhu <simranjits@ ..> wrote:
      > >
      >
      > > I'm talking abt STR matching , if an ancestor of ranjit has close matches
      > > with mainly jats , we can safely conclude that his paternal line would be
      > > jat. If you don't find any matches then we would be able to infer something
      > > else. Jats should at least have other jat matches , my only 12marker y-str
      > > match for example is a virk jatt. One step off at 11 markers are a bunch of
      > > pathans/afghans/ uzbeks and even uyghurs.
      > > Of course he could have a some rare dna that would have no match , but it's
      > > better to know than to speculate.
      > >
      > > On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 10:36 AM, historian_geek
      > > <histriographer@ ...>wrote:
      >
      > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > You are assuming Jats , Rajputs and other groups are genetically homogenous
      > > > all across.
      > > >
      > > > I have an access to some anthropometric data on Punjabi tribes. Jats of
      > > > Majha greatly differ from Jats of Doaba. Jats of Doaba on an average are 2
      > > > cm shorter than Majha Jats. Further Majha Jats are more akin to Khatris of
      > > > Majha than Jats of Doaba who were morphometrically closer to Sainis of
      > > > Doaba.
      > > >
      > > > Surprise. Brahmins, Rajputs and Chamars of Shiwalik region, who are
      > > > socially heterogenous, form a morphometric cluster indicating they are
      > > > closely linked genetically.
      > > >
      > > > None of the social group showed any homogenity across the regions. A Rajput
      > > > of hills will greatly differ from Rajput of Haryana who is generally much
      > > > taller.
      > > >
      > > > What do you make of all this?
      > > >
      > > > The only conclusion one can reach is all Indian social groups are related
      > > > and cross-assimilated culturally, socially and genetically. Race or caste
      > > > purity is a myth.
      > > >
      > > > Given this , not sure what the DNA test would be able to prove.
      > > >
      > > > If somebody is interested, they can read complete study in following
      > > > publication:
      > > >
      > > > Anthropometric Variations in Punjab, Haryana....Anthropo logical Survey of
      > > > India, J Shreenath and Anabinda Basu
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogro ups.com <JatHistory%40yahoogroups. com>,
      >
      > > > Simranjit Singh Sandhu <simranjits@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > A Simple dna test would easily settle this question , rather than all
      > > > this
      > > > > back and forth , if his dna profile has close matches with jats , it
      > > > would
      > > > > mean a common ancestor at some point.
      > > > >
      > > > > On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 9:38 AM, historian_geek <histriographer@
      > > > ...>wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Sardar Harinder Singh, former Revenue Minister of Punjab, who
      > > > represented
      > > > > > Raja Sansi constituency in Punjab was acknowledged by all as related to
      > > > > > Ranjit Singh's clan. He was a 9th generation descendant of Chanda
      > > > Singh,
      > > > > > brother of Ranjit Singh's great grandfather Nodh Singh (son of Buddha
      > > > > > Sansi). You can ask Jat elders from around Raja Sansi who knew him
      > > > whether
      > > > > > he was considered to be a Jat by them. This could clarify this doubt to
      > > > some
      > > > > > extent.
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogro ups.com <JatHistory%40yahoogroups. com><JatHistory%
      >
      >
      >
      > > > 40yahoogroups. com>, Singh -
      > > > > > Jat <jatrajput@> wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > It is known that Ranjit Singh's mother was a Brar. She was called
      > > > Mata
      > > > > > Malwain. Meaning she was from the Malwa region of Punjab which is
      > > > southern
      > > > > > part of Punjab.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > I would find it difficult for anyone to marry their daughter to a
      > > > non-Jat
      > > > > > in those past centuries, now it is a different time. But there are
      > > > rumors
      > > > > > that Ranjit Singh's forefathers were not Jat. So who knows.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > I know some Sandhanwalias here in California. They are married into
      > > > > > Jats and are considered Jats by all? I heard that they are one of the
      > > > > > smaller tribes of Jats for example like the Khela tribe of Jats. There
      > > > are
      > > > > > other tribes of Jats with very small numbers.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Certain Jat tribes are found all over the greater Punjab regions.
      > > > Some
      > > > > > tribes are specific to certain areas. For example; Dhillons, Virks and
      > > > > > Chaals are found all over Punjab in the past. Some like the Sandhu,
      > > > > > Randhwa, Bajwa are considered Majhail Jats, who predominante in the
      > > > central
      > > > > > part of greater Punjab which is the region of Lahore-Amritsar.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Some of the tribes with mostly Muslim members and very few Sikh /
      > > > Arya
      > > > > > Samajis are also there for example the Sial tribe, whose members are
      > > > mostly
      > > > > > on the other side of Punjab the districts that border the Pathan areas.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > --- On Fri, 9/18/09, Ajay Singh <asingh71@> wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > From: Ajay Singh <asingh71@>
      > > > > >
      > > > > > > Subject: Re: [JatHistory] Maharaja Ranjit Singh - a hero to us all
      > > > > > > To: JatHistory@yahoogro ups.com <JatHistory%40yahoogroups. com><JatHistory%
      >
      >
      >
      > > > 40yahoogroups. com>
      > > >
      > > > > > > Date: Friday, September 18, 2009, 5:07 PM
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > HG you came back with new disguise. 100% of the historians agree that
      > > > > > Ranjeet Singh was a Jat.No disputes except you. With your own logic Rai
      > > > > > Pitora was not a Rajput but just a tribal chief.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 2:18 PM, history.geek@ ymail.com
      > > > <histriographer@
      > > > > > gmail.com> wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > With due respect to all, Maharaja Ranjit Singh was neither a Jat nor
      > > > a
      > > > > > Rajput. He belonged to Sansi tribe according to all neutral and reputed
      > > > > > scholars.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Sansis claim origin from Bhati Rajputs but could not be regarded as
      > > > part
      > > > > > of them. Unless Rajputs and Jats are ready to claim all people of Sansi
      > > > > > caste, they should not try to selectively claim Ranjit Singh. During
      > > > British
      > > > > > era, they were listed as a "criminal tribe".
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Sir Griffin Lepel writes the following about Sansi origin of Ranjit
      > > > > > Singh:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > "and from Sansi the Sindhanwalias and the Sansis have a common
      > > > descent.
      > > > > > The Sansis were the theivish and degraded tribe and the house of
      > > > > > Sindhanwalia naturally feeling ashamed of its Sansi name invented a
      > > > romantic
      > > > > > story to account for it. But the relationship between the nobles and
      > > > the
      > > > > > beggars, does not seem the less certain and if history of Maharaja
      > > > Ranjit
      > > > > > Singh is attentively considered it will appear that much his policy and
      > > > many
      > > > > > of his actions had the true Sansi complexion"
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > (Sir Lepel Griffin, Punjab Chiefs, Vol. 1, p 219)
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Following scholars have also considered him to be from Sansi tribe
      > > > from
      > > > > > both sides of his family:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Dr. Sher Singh Sher
      > > > > > > Fauja Singh
      > > > > > > Sangat Singh
      > > > > > > Syad Muhammad Latif
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Maharaja Ranjit Singh was beyond caste and he took wives from many
      > > > > > communities, including Jats, Rajputs, Kalals, etc.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Two of Raja Sansar Chand Katoch's daughters were married to him. One
      > > > of
      > > > > > them , Guddan Katoch, commited Sati on his funeral pyre.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > For somebody rising up from his background and forcing a Katoch Raja
      > > > to
      > > > > > marry his daughters to him was indeed revolutionary and speaks of the
      > > > > > irrisistible power he wielded in Punjab and around.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > For a Sansi rising to such a rank is not unusual for Sikhism. A
      > > > number of
      > > > > > Jagirdars during Sikh rule came from Naharane Sikh community, who were
      > > > > > barbers before conversion to Sikhism.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > For a period of about 100 or so years after Guru Gobind Singh, for
      > > > the
      > > > > > first time in Indian history polity and military had become totally
      > > > > > caste-blind and this led to military successes. Maharaja's conquering
      > > > > > generals came from all castes and he was totally free from any caste
      > > > > > consciousness (I now learn that Sarva Khap was also based on similar
      > > > > > dynamics).
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Too bad we were enslaved again by British and they re-introduced
      > > > these
      > > > > > caste bickerings and unscientific concepts like "martial race" which
      > > > was
      > > > > > rejected by Sikh gurus and later by Indian army too after independence.
      > > > The
      > > > > > very inception of Khalsa laid in the total rejection of the concept
      > > > that
      > > > > > certain castes were naturally "martial" than others. Guruji wanted
      > > > people
      > > > > > from all communities to participate in military enterprises and Sikh
      > > > history
      > > > > > of 18th and early 19th century is a shining example of the success of
      > > > this
      > > > > > policy.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Lets not fight over Maharaja Ranjit Singh's caste origin. He was a
      > > > hero
      > > > > > to all. Lets not forget he was a uniter, not a divider.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Just my two cents.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Cheers
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > HG
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogro ups.com, Ajay Singh <asingh71@> wrote:
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Rai pithora won sue to Khokhar Jats in 1191 and lost war in 1192 as
      > > > > > Jats
      > > > > > > > refused to go participate in the war. marana Pratap was a great
      > > > warrior
      > > > > > but
      > > > > > > > he lost. Ranjist singh was not a Rajput and there is no link to
      > > > that.
      > > > > > Bhatti
      > > > > > > > is a Jat clan and will remain. Your history is tottaly lost under
      > > > your
      > > > > > > > disgusie english name.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 8:09 PM, michael nome <mike_kns9@ .>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > hey brij
      > > > > > > > > ur urself is ridiculous , u some of the indians r blaming col.
      > > > Tod
      > > > > > > > > & twisting the history as it makes to place the Jat tribe on a
      > > > > > fractional
      > > > > > > > > up level.the reality is Rajputs were on the peak levels always &
      > > > will
      > > > > > be
      > > > > > > > > for ever .Name any jat warrior from india who was gr8 warrior
      > > > like
      > > > > > Maharana
      > > > > > > > > Partap Singh or Prithvi Raj Chauhan of Rajput community .none is
      > > > thr
      > > > > > to
      > > > > > > > > support u. But* The infinite Rajput warriors* list is present &
      > > > will
      > > > > > > > > exist for ever till the life exists on this earth planet. i think
      > > > u
      > > > > > will
      > > > > > > > > n't dare to write anymore to distort the indian history.Jats were
      > > > so
      > > > > > poor
      > > > > > > > > and pennyless that they remained slaves of Moneylenders and
      > > > Thakurs
      > > > > > so hw
      > > > > > > > > could they think to act like land lords or Thakurs . Even
      > > > Maharaja
      > > > > > Ranjit
      > > > > > > > > Singh of Punjab was of Bhatti Rajput origin.THe Present Patiala
      > > > > > maharaja
      > > > > > > > > Captain Amarinder Singh is also of Bhatti Rajput origin.The
      > > > > > Ahluwalias The
      > > > > > > > > Kapurthala estate kings r of Bhatti Rajput origin too.Enough for
      > > > > > today.
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > --- On *Sat, 14/3/09, Gianender Rana <gianender.rana@ ...>*
      > > > wrote:
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > From: Gianender Rana <gianender.rana@ ...>
      > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [JatHistory] Re: Jat Chief -- ARMY
      > > > > > > > > To: JatHistory@yahoogro ups.com
      > > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, 14 March, 2009, 12:14 PM
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > dear ravi,
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > can i get an ebook version of the same?
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > 2009/3/14 <ranjitjat@talk21. com<http://in.mc947 mail.yahoo.
      > > > > > com/mc/compose? to=ranjitjat% 40talk21. com>
      > > > > > > > > >:
      > > > > > > > > > please read
      > > > > > > > > > history of haryana saravkhap martyrs and freedom fighters.
      > > > > > > > > > written by dharmpal singh dudee and published by sahiddham
      > > > trust
      > > > > > bhiwani
      > > > > > > > > > haryana.
      > > > > > > > > > ravi ji has few copies to spare
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 13/3/09, Ajay Singh <asingh71@gmail. com<
      > > > > > http://in.mc947 mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=asingh71% 40gmail.com
      > > > >>
      > > > > > > > > wrote:
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > From: Ajay Singh <asingh71@gmail. com<http://in.mc947 mail.yahoo.
      > > > > > .com/mc/compose? to=asingh71% 40gmail.com>
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [JatHistory] Re: Jat Chief -- ARMY
      > > > > > > > > > To: JatHistory@yahoogro ups.com<http://in.mc947 mail.yahoo.
      > > > > > com/mc/compose? to=JatHistory% 40yahoogroups. com>
      > > > > > > > > > Date: Friday, 13 March, 2009, 6:08 PM
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > I juts forgot to mention that even if Jat Chaudhary collects
      > > > > > revenue from
      > > > > > > > > 84
      > > > > > > > > > villages he still remain a big chaudhary but under hindu
      > > > brahmincal
      > > > > > > > > system a
      > > > > > > > > > Rajpu with 12 villages will be a Raja. Jats have that
      > > > horizontal
      > > > > > system
      > > > > > > > > and
      > > > > > > > > > if someone starte writig their Khap history Jat can easily
      > > > surpass
      > > > > > Rajput
      > > > > > > > > > dominanace.
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 10:17 AM, michael nome <mike_kns9@>
      > > >
      > > > > > > > > wrote:
      > > > > > > > > >>
      > > > > > > > > >> considered & in cognitive state of mind.thanx.. .
      > > > > > > > > >>
      > > > > > > > > >> --- On Fri, 13/3/09, rajesh kumar <rkddhaka@yahoo. com>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > > > > > > >>
      > > > > > > > > >> From: rajesh kumar <rkddhaka@yahoo. com>
      > > > > > > > > >> Subject: Re: [JatHistory] Re: Jat Chief -- ARMY
      > > > > > > > > >> To: JatHistory@yahoogro ups.com
      > > > > > > > > >> Date: Friday, 13 March, 2009, 7:19 AM
      > > > > > > > > >>
      > > > > > > > > >> ok mr. michael nome I agree to your views but you are talking
      > > > > > about
      > > > > > > > > >> history and we are talking about present. A black will be the
      > > > > > president
      > > > > > > > > of
      > > > > > > > > >> US had you ever thought. A black will be the most powerful man
      > > > in
      > > > > > the
      > > > > > > > > >> world does your any historian had mentioned it. So the JATS of
      > > > > > todays
      > > > > > > > > are
      > > > > > > > > >> not what they were in past and this is what we have to
      > > > prove.The
      > > > > > Indians
      > > > > > > > > >> were defeated by Alexnder, Mugals and than Britisher all out
      > > > > > siders and
      > > > > > > > > we
      > > > > > > > > >> were slaves for nearly about 1500 years this was because there
      > > > > > were no
      > > > > > > > > brave
      > > > > > > > > >> leaders of niether community.
      > > > > > > > > >>
      > > > > > > > > >>
      > > > > > > > > >>
      > > > > > > > > >> --- On Thu, 12/3/09, michael nome <mike_kns9@yahoo. com>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > > > > > > >>
      > > > > > > > > >> From: michael nome <mike_kns9@yahoo. com>
      > > > > > > > > >> Subject: Re: [JatHistory] Re: Jat Chief -- ARMY
      > > > > > > > > >> To: JatHistory@yahoogro ups.com
      > > > > > > > > >> Date: Thursday, 12 March, 2009, 4:12 PM
      > > > > > > > > >>
      > > > > > > > > >> have u tried to handicap the reality abt the origin of jats by
      > > > > > deleting
      > > > > > > > > >> the history pages ?,it's so bad...so bad...history can't be
      > > > > > buried. jats
      > > > > > > > > r
      > > > > > > > > >> the off shoot of some weaker sections of rajputs.read colonel
      > > > > > todd's
      > > > > > > > > stuff
      > > > > > > > > >> abt the punjab castes and tribes.do read Jatan da itihas by
      > > > some
      > > > > > punjabi
      > > > > > > > > >> writers.The brave rajputs never prefered cultivation to wage a
      > > > war
      > > > > > for
      > > > > > > > > >> lordship and self respect.
      > > > > > > > > >>
      > > > > > > > > >> --- On Wed, 11/3/09, Ravi Chaudhary <ravichaudhary2000@
      > > > yahoo.com
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > wrote:
      > > > > > > > > >>
      > > > > > > > > >> From: Ravi Chaudhary <ravichaudhary2000@ yahoo.com>
      > > > > > > > > >> Subject: [JatHistory] Re: Jat Chief -- ARMY
      > > > > > > > > >> To: JatHistory@yahoogro ups.com
      > > > > > > > > >> Date: Wednesday, 11 March, 2009, 9:22 AM
      > > > > > > > > >>
      > > > > > > > > >> I have deleted the last two messages, as the language was a
      > > > little
      > > > > > > > > >> intemperate
      > > > > > > > > >>
      > > > > > > > > >> Members may please conduct themselves appropriately
      > > > > > > > > >>
      > > > > > > > > >> Ravi
      > > > > > > > > >>
      > > > > > > > > >>
      > > > > > > > > >> ____________ _________ _________ __
      > > > > > > > > >> Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now.
      > > > > > > > > >>
      > > > > > > > > >> ____________ _________ _________ __
      > > > > > > > > >> Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now.
      > > > > > > > > >>
      > > > > > > > > >> ____________ _________ _________ __
      > > > > > > > > >> Connect with friends all over the world.. Get Yahoo! India
      > > > > > Messenger.
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > --
      > > > > > > > > with warm regards,
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > Gianender Rana
      > > > > > > > > Electro Technical Officer
      > > > > > > > > BP shipping
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > SAFETY IS FIRST, SECOND AND LAST AT ALL TIMES
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > NO ACCIDENTS, NO HARM TO PEOPLE AND NO DAMAGE TO THE ENVIRONMENT
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- ---------
      > > > > > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now.<
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      > > > > > yahoo.com/ invite/>
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    • historian_geek
      what difference does that make? I watched the website Simranji posted about Dna. It says all of us originated in Africa, including Europeans:-)
      Message 84 of 84 , Oct 5, 2009
        what difference does that make? I watched the website Simranji posted about Dna.

        It says all of us originated in Africa, including Europeans:-)

        --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, Singh - Jat <jatrajput@...> wrote:
        >
        > Simran Ji,
        >  
        > Please substantiate the X, N, W, U5a MtDNA MtDNA haplotypes among Jats/Punjabis.  Could you please reference your information.   I would like to post it on another group that says Jats are not from beyond the Khyber pass. 
        >  
        > Thanks
        >
        > --- On Mon, 9/21/09, Simranjit Singh Sandhu <simranjits@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > From: Simranjit Singh Sandhu <simranjits@...>
        > Subject: Re: [JatHistory] Re: Maharaja Ranjit Singh - a hero to us all
        > To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 3:33 PM
        >
        >
        >  
        >
        >
        >
        > We need more jats testing their dna , at the very least a str test with ftdna. 23andme which covers the autosomal range is much better because it covers all the chromosomes( not whole sequence though). For example my highest autosomal match is a pakistani lady of butt kashmiri origin, only after her do i have my next match who is a jhaj Jatt. Brahmins have varied Y-dna , but mtdna is generally R or M, i know this because i'm sharing with about 25 south asians , the bulk being brahmins of some sort.
        >
        >
        > One thing i've noticed is that punjabis seem to have very interesting mtdna , y-dna is most of the time r1a1a( which is barely interesting since it is all over india and europe). But we get X, N,W, U5a mtdna which contradicts what some historians claim that jat established in punjab by marrying local females. If that were the case , we should be seeing more M's in the punjab/jatt gene pool.
        >
        >
        > On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 11:20 PM, historian_geek <histriographer@ gmail.com> wrote:
        >
        >
        >  
        >
        >
        >
        > Hmm...I see...but what if Jats had borrowed from the same gene pool as did Sansis, Rajputs and some other non-Jat tribes who have great morphometric similarity with Jats.
        >
        > We are assuming that Jats will have unique Y-str matches all across not shared by other tribes. Is there a study which has measured this aspect? Not sure of this...maybe you can guide...I'd love to learn more about it. I don't know much about this aspect.
        >
        > The study I referred to shows there is considerable genetic distance between Jats belonging to various regions....but it is based on morphometric analysis , not DNA. DNA study will be more interesting. ...
        >
        >
        > --- In JatHistory@yahoogro ups.com, Simranjit Singh Sandhu <simranjits@ ..> wrote:
        > >
        >
        > > I'm talking abt STR matching , if an ancestor of ranjit has close matches
        > > with mainly jats , we can safely conclude that his paternal line would be
        > > jat. If you don't find any matches then we would be able to infer something
        > > else. Jats should at least have other jat matches , my only 12marker y-str
        > > match for example is a virk jatt. One step off at 11 markers are a bunch of
        > > pathans/afghans/ uzbeks and even uyghurs.
        > > Of course he could have a some rare dna that would have no match , but it's
        > > better to know than to speculate.
        > >
        > > On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 10:36 AM, historian_geek
        > > <histriographer@ ...>wrote:
        >
        > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > You are assuming Jats , Rajputs and other groups are genetically homogenous
        > > > all across.
        > > >
        > > > I have an access to some anthropometric data on Punjabi tribes. Jats of
        > > > Majha greatly differ from Jats of Doaba. Jats of Doaba on an average are 2
        > > > cm shorter than Majha Jats. Further Majha Jats are more akin to Khatris of
        > > > Majha than Jats of Doaba who were morphometrically closer to Sainis of
        > > > Doaba.
        > > >
        > > > Surprise. Brahmins, Rajputs and Chamars of Shiwalik region, who are
        > > > socially heterogenous, form a morphometric cluster indicating they are
        > > > closely linked genetically.
        > > >
        > > > None of the social group showed any homogenity across the regions. A Rajput
        > > > of hills will greatly differ from Rajput of Haryana who is generally much
        > > > taller.
        > > >
        > > > What do you make of all this?
        > > >
        > > > The only conclusion one can reach is all Indian social groups are related
        > > > and cross-assimilated culturally, socially and genetically. Race or caste
        > > > purity is a myth.
        > > >
        > > > Given this , not sure what the DNA test would be able to prove.
        > > >
        > > > If somebody is interested, they can read complete study in following
        > > > publication:
        > > >
        > > > Anthropometric Variations in Punjab, Haryana....Anthropo logical Survey of
        > > > India, J Shreenath and Anabinda Basu
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogro ups.com <JatHistory%40yahoogroups. com>,
        >
        > > > Simranjit Singh Sandhu <simranjits@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > A Simple dna test would easily settle this question , rather than all
        > > > this
        > > > > back and forth , if his dna profile has close matches with jats , it
        > > > would
        > > > > mean a common ancestor at some point.
        > > > >
        > > > > On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 9:38 AM, historian_geek <histriographer@
        > > > ...>wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Sardar Harinder Singh, former Revenue Minister of Punjab, who
        > > > represented
        > > > > > Raja Sansi constituency in Punjab was acknowledged by all as related to
        > > > > > Ranjit Singh's clan. He was a 9th generation descendant of Chanda
        > > > Singh,
        > > > > > brother of Ranjit Singh's great grandfather Nodh Singh (son of Buddha
        > > > > > Sansi). You can ask Jat elders from around Raja Sansi who knew him
        > > > whether
        > > > > > he was considered to be a Jat by them. This could clarify this doubt to
        > > > some
        > > > > > extent.
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogro ups.com <JatHistory%40yahoogroups. com><JatHistory%
        >
        >
        >
        > > > 40yahoogroups. com>, Singh -
        > > > > > Jat <jatrajput@> wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > It is known that Ranjit Singh's mother was a Brar. She was called
        > > > Mata
        > > > > > Malwain. Meaning she was from the Malwa region of Punjab which is
        > > > southern
        > > > > > part of Punjab.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > I would find it difficult for anyone to marry their daughter to a
        > > > non-Jat
        > > > > > in those past centuries, now it is a different time. But there are
        > > > rumors
        > > > > > that Ranjit Singh's forefathers were not Jat. So who knows.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > I know some Sandhanwalias here in California. They are married into
        > > > > > Jats and are considered Jats by all? I heard that they are one of the
        > > > > > smaller tribes of Jats for example like the Khela tribe of Jats. There
        > > > are
        > > > > > other tribes of Jats with very small numbers.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Certain Jat tribes are found all over the greater Punjab regions.
        > > > Some
        > > > > > tribes are specific to certain areas. For example; Dhillons, Virks and
        > > > > > Chaals are found all over Punjab in the past. Some like the Sandhu,
        > > > > > Randhwa, Bajwa are considered Majhail Jats, who predominante in the
        > > > central
        > > > > > part of greater Punjab which is the region of Lahore-Amritsar.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Some of the tribes with mostly Muslim members and very few Sikh /
        > > > Arya
        > > > > > Samajis are also there for example the Sial tribe, whose members are
        > > > mostly
        > > > > > on the other side of Punjab the districts that border the Pathan areas.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > --- On Fri, 9/18/09, Ajay Singh <asingh71@> wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > From: Ajay Singh <asingh71@>
        > > > > >
        > > > > > > Subject: Re: [JatHistory] Maharaja Ranjit Singh - a hero to us all
        > > > > > > To: JatHistory@yahoogro ups.com <JatHistory%40yahoogroups. com><JatHistory%
        >
        >
        >
        > > > 40yahoogroups. com>
        > > >
        > > > > > > Date: Friday, September 18, 2009, 5:07 PM
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > HG you came back with new disguise. 100% of the historians agree that
        > > > > > Ranjeet Singh was a Jat.No disputes except you. With your own logic Rai
        > > > > > Pitora was not a Rajput but just a tribal chief.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 2:18 PM, history.geek@ ymail.com
        > > > <histriographer@
        > > > > > gmail.com> wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > With due respect to all, Maharaja Ranjit Singh was neither a Jat nor
        > > > a
        > > > > > Rajput. He belonged to Sansi tribe according to all neutral and reputed
        > > > > > scholars.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Sansis claim origin from Bhati Rajputs but could not be regarded as
        > > > part
        > > > > > of them. Unless Rajputs and Jats are ready to claim all people of Sansi
        > > > > > caste, they should not try to selectively claim Ranjit Singh. During
        > > > British
        > > > > > era, they were listed as a "criminal tribe".
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Sir Griffin Lepel writes the following about Sansi origin of Ranjit
        > > > > > Singh:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > "and from Sansi the Sindhanwalias and the Sansis have a common
        > > > descent.
        > > > > > The Sansis were the theivish and degraded tribe and the house of
        > > > > > Sindhanwalia naturally feeling ashamed of its Sansi name invented a
        > > > romantic
        > > > > > story to account for it. But the relationship between the nobles and
        > > > the
        > > > > > beggars, does not seem the less certain and if history of Maharaja
        > > > Ranjit
        > > > > > Singh is attentively considered it will appear that much his policy and
        > > > many
        > > > > > of his actions had the true Sansi complexion"
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > (Sir Lepel Griffin, Punjab Chiefs, Vol. 1, p 219)
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Following scholars have also considered him to be from Sansi tribe
        > > > from
        > > > > > both sides of his family:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Dr. Sher Singh Sher
        > > > > > > Fauja Singh
        > > > > > > Sangat Singh
        > > > > > > Syad Muhammad Latif
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Maharaja Ranjit Singh was beyond caste and he took wives from many
        > > > > > communities, including Jats, Rajputs, Kalals, etc.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Two of Raja Sansar Chand Katoch's daughters were married to him. One
        > > > of
        > > > > > them , Guddan Katoch, commited Sati on his funeral pyre.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > For somebody rising up from his background and forcing a Katoch Raja
        > > > to
        > > > > > marry his daughters to him was indeed revolutionary and speaks of the
        > > > > > irrisistible power he wielded in Punjab and around.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > For a Sansi rising to such a rank is not unusual for Sikhism. A
        > > > number of
        > > > > > Jagirdars during Sikh rule came from Naharane Sikh community, who were
        > > > > > barbers before conversion to Sikhism.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > For a period of about 100 or so years after Guru Gobind Singh, for
        > > > the
        > > > > > first time in Indian history polity and military had become totally
        > > > > > caste-blind and this led to military successes. Maharaja's conquering
        > > > > > generals came from all castes and he was totally free from any caste
        > > > > > consciousness (I now learn that Sarva Khap was also based on similar
        > > > > > dynamics).
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Too bad we were enslaved again by British and they re-introduced
        > > > these
        > > > > > caste bickerings and unscientific concepts like "martial race" which
        > > > was
        > > > > > rejected by Sikh gurus and later by Indian army too after independence.
        > > > The
        > > > > > very inception of Khalsa laid in the total rejection of the concept
        > > > that
        > > > > > certain castes were naturally "martial" than others. Guruji wanted
        > > > people
        > > > > > from all communities to participate in military enterprises and Sikh
        > > > history
        > > > > > of 18th and early 19th century is a shining example of the success of
        > > > this
        > > > > > policy.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Lets not fight over Maharaja Ranjit Singh's caste origin. He was a
        > > > hero
        > > > > > to all. Lets not forget he was a uniter, not a divider.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Just my two cents.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Cheers
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > HG
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogro ups.com, Ajay Singh <asingh71@> wrote:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Rai pithora won sue to Khokhar Jats in 1191 and lost war in 1192 as
        > > > > > Jats
        > > > > > > > refused to go participate in the war. marana Pratap was a great
        > > > warrior
        > > > > > but
        > > > > > > > he lost. Ranjist singh was not a Rajput and there is no link to
        > > > that.
        > > > > > Bhatti
        > > > > > > > is a Jat clan and will remain. Your history is tottaly lost under
        > > > your
        > > > > > > > disgusie english name.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 8:09 PM, michael nome <mike_kns9@ .>
        > > > wrote:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > hey brij
        > > > > > > > > ur urself is ridiculous , u some of the indians r blaming col.
        > > > Tod
        > > > > > > > > & twisting the history as it makes to place the Jat tribe on a
        > > > > > fractional
        > > > > > > > > up level.the reality is Rajputs were on the peak levels always &
        > > > will
        > > > > > be
        > > > > > > > > for ever .Name any jat warrior from india who was gr8 warrior
        > > > like
        > > > > > Maharana
        > > > > > > > > Partap Singh or Prithvi Raj Chauhan of Rajput community .none is
        > > > thr
        > > > > > to
        > > > > > > > > support u. But* The infinite Rajput warriors* list is present &
        > > > will
        > > > > > > > > exist for ever till the life exists on this earth planet. i think
        > > > u
        > > > > > will
        > > > > > > > > n't dare to write anymore to distort the indian history.Jats were
        > > > so
        > > > > > poor
        > > > > > > > > and pennyless that they remained slaves of Moneylenders and
        > > > Thakurs
        > > > > > so hw
        > > > > > > > > could they think to act like land lords or Thakurs . Even
        > > > Maharaja
        > > > > > Ranjit
        > > > > > > > > Singh of Punjab was of Bhatti Rajput origin.THe Present Patiala
        > > > > > maharaja
        > > > > > > > > Captain Amarinder Singh is also of Bhatti Rajput origin.The
        > > > > > Ahluwalias The
        > > > > > > > > Kapurthala estate kings r of Bhatti Rajput origin too.Enough for
        > > > > > today.
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > --- On *Sat, 14/3/09, Gianender Rana <gianender.rana@ ...>*
        > > > wrote:
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > From: Gianender Rana <gianender.rana@ ...>
        > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [JatHistory] Re: Jat Chief -- ARMY
        > > > > > > > > To: JatHistory@yahoogro ups.com
        > > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, 14 March, 2009, 12:14 PM
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > dear ravi,
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > can i get an ebook version of the same?
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > 2009/3/14 <ranjitjat@talk21. com<http://in.mc947 mail.yahoo.
        > > > > > com/mc/compose? to=ranjitjat% 40talk21. com>
        > > > > > > > > >:
        > > > > > > > > > please read
        > > > > > > > > > history of haryana saravkhap martyrs and freedom fighters.
        > > > > > > > > > written by dharmpal singh dudee and published by sahiddham
        > > > trust
        > > > > > bhiwani
        > > > > > > > > > haryana.
        > > > > > > > > > ravi ji has few copies to spare
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 13/3/09, Ajay Singh <asingh71@gmail. com<
        > > > > > http://in.mc947 mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=asingh71% 40gmail.com
        > > > >>
        > > > > > > > > wrote:
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > From: Ajay Singh <asingh71@gmail. com<http://in.mc947 mail.yahoo.
        > > > > > .com/mc/compose? to=asingh71% 40gmail.com>
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [JatHistory] Re: Jat Chief -- ARMY
        > > > > > > > > > To: JatHistory@yahoogro ups.com<http://in.mc947 mail.yahoo.
        > > > > > com/mc/compose? to=JatHistory% 40yahoogroups. com>
        > > > > > > > > > Date: Friday, 13 March, 2009, 6:08 PM
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > I juts forgot to mention that even if Jat Chaudhary collects
        > > > > > revenue from
        > > > > > > > > 84
        > > > > > > > > > villages he still remain a big chaudhary but under hindu
        > > > brahmincal
        > > > > > > > > system a
        > > > > > > > > > Rajpu with 12 villages will be a Raja. Jats have that
        > > > horizontal
        > > > > > system
        > > > > > > > > and
        > > > > > > > > > if someone starte writig their Khap history Jat can easily
        > > > surpass
        > > > > > Rajput
        > > > > > > > > > dominanace.
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 10:17 AM, michael nome <mike_kns9@>
        > > >
        > > > > > > > > wrote:
        > > > > > > > > >>
        > > > > > > > > >> considered & in cognitive state of mind.thanx.. .
        > > > > > > > > >>
        > > > > > > > > >> --- On Fri, 13/3/09, rajesh kumar <rkddhaka@yahoo. com>
        > > > wrote:
        > > > > > > > > >>
        > > > > > > > > >> From: rajesh kumar <rkddhaka@yahoo. com>
        > > > > > > > > >> Subject: Re: [JatHistory] Re: Jat Chief -- ARMY
        > > > > > > > > >> To: JatHistory@yahoogro ups.com
        > > > > > > > > >> Date: Friday, 13 March, 2009, 7:19 AM
        > > > > > > > > >>
        > > > > > > > > >> ok mr. michael nome I agree to your views but you are talking
        > > > > > about
        > > > > > > > > >> history and we are talking about present. A black will be the
        > > > > > president
        > > > > > > > > of
        > > > > > > > > >> US had you ever thought. A black will be the most powerful man
        > > > in
        > > > > > the
        > > > > > > > > >> world does your any historian had mentioned it. So the JATS of
        > > > > > todays
        > > > > > > > > are
        > > > > > > > > >> not what they were in past and this is what we have to
        > > > prove.The
        > > > > > Indians
        > > > > > > > > >> were defeated by Alexnder, Mugals and than Britisher all out
        > > > > > siders and
        > > > > > > > > we
        > > > > > > > > >> were slaves for nearly about 1500 years this was because there
        > > > > > were no
        > > > > > > > > brave
        > > > > > > > > >> leaders of niether community.
        > > > > > > > > >>
        > > > > > > > > >>
        > > > > > > > > >>
        > > > > > > > > >> --- On Thu, 12/3/09, michael nome <mike_kns9@yahoo. com>
        > > > wrote:
        > > > > > > > > >>
        > > > > > > > > >> From: michael nome <mike_kns9@yahoo. com>
        > > > > > > > > >> Subject: Re: [JatHistory] Re: Jat Chief -- ARMY
        > > > > > > > > >> To: JatHistory@yahoogro ups.com
        > > > > > > > > >> Date: Thursday, 12 March, 2009, 4:12 PM
        > > > > > > > > >>
        > > > > > > > > >> have u tried to handicap the reality abt the origin of jats by
        > > > > > deleting
        > > > > > > > > >> the history pages ?,it's so bad...so bad...history can't be
        > > > > > buried. jats
        > > > > > > > > r
        > > > > > > > > >> the off shoot of some weaker sections of rajputs.read colonel
        > > > > > todd's
        > > > > > > > > stuff
        > > > > > > > > >> abt the punjab castes and tribes.do read Jatan da itihas by
        > > > some
        > > > > > punjabi
        > > > > > > > > >> writers.The brave rajputs never prefered cultivation to wage a
        > > > war
        > > > > > for
        > > > > > > > > >> lordship and self respect.
        > > > > > > > > >>
        > > > > > > > > >> --- On Wed, 11/3/09, Ravi Chaudhary <ravichaudhary2000@
        > > > yahoo.com
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > wrote:
        > > > > > > > > >>
        > > > > > > > > >> From: Ravi Chaudhary <ravichaudhary2000@ yahoo.com>
        > > > > > > > > >> Subject: [JatHistory] Re: Jat Chief -- ARMY
        > > > > > > > > >> To: JatHistory@yahoogro ups.com
        > > > > > > > > >> Date: Wednesday, 11 March, 2009, 9:22 AM
        > > > > > > > > >>
        > > > > > > > > >> I have deleted the last two messages, as the language was a
        > > > little
        > > > > > > > > >> intemperate
        > > > > > > > > >>
        > > > > > > > > >> Members may please conduct themselves appropriately
        > > > > > > > > >>
        > > > > > > > > >> Ravi
        > > > > > > > > >>
        > > > > > > > > >>
        > > > > > > > > >> ____________ _________ _________ __
        > > > > > > > > >> Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now.
        > > > > > > > > >>
        > > > > > > > > >> ____________ _________ _________ __
        > > > > > > > > >> Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now.
        > > > > > > > > >>
        > > > > > > > > >> ____________ _________ _________ __
        > > > > > > > > >> Connect with friends all over the world.. Get Yahoo! India
        > > > > > Messenger.
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > --
        > > > > > > > > with warm regards,
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > Gianender Rana
        > > > > > > > > Electro Technical Officer
        > > > > > > > > BP shipping
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > SAFETY IS FIRST, SECOND AND LAST AT ALL TIMES
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > NO ACCIDENTS, NO HARM TO PEOPLE AND NO DAMAGE TO THE ENVIRONMENT
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- ---------
        > > > > > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now.<
        > > > > > http://in.rd yahoo.com/ tagline_messenge r_6/*http: //messenger.
        > > > > > yahoo.com/ invite/>
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
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