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Jat history in Mandsaur Madhya Pradesh

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  • Laxman Burdak
    Mandsaur district in Madhya Pradesh, situated in the Malwa region, is very important from the point of view of Jat History. Mandsaur and its neighborhood are
    Message 1 of 14 , Sep 1, 2008
      Mandsaur district in Madhya Pradesh, situated in the Malwa region, is
      very important from the point of view of Jat History. Mandsaur and
      its neighborhood are full of archaeological interest. An inscription
      discovered near the town indicated the erection of a temple of the
      sun in 437, and at Sondani near Mandsaur are two great monolith
      pillars recording a victory of Yasodharman, a Virk Jat King of Malwa,
      in 528 AD.

      I have visited this area on 25-28 August 2008 and provided new facts
      linking with the Jat History. These are updated on Jatland Wiki along
      with Photographs. Interested members may see at links below:

      http://www.jatland.com/home/Mandsaur

      http://www.jatland.com/home/Hinglajgarh

      http://www.jatland.com/home/Taxakeshwar


      Regards,
      __________________
      Laxman Burdak
    • Ajay Singh
      A Great Work Sir.Thanks.
      Message 2 of 14 , Sep 1, 2008
        A Great Work Sir.Thanks.

        On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 7:46 AM, Laxman Burdak <lr_burdak@...> wrote:

        Mandsaur district in Madhya Pradesh, situated in the Malwa region, is
        very important from the point of view of Jat History. Mandsaur and
        its neighborhood are full of archaeological interest. An inscription
        discovered near the town indicated the erection of a temple of the
        sun in 437, and at Sondani near Mandsaur are two great monolith
        pillars recording a victory of Yasodharman, a Virk Jat King of Malwa,
        in 528 AD.

        I have visited this area on 25-28 August 2008 and provided new facts
        linking with the Jat History. These are updated on Jatland Wiki along
        with Photographs. Interested members may see at links below:

        http://www.jatland.com/home/Mandsaur

        http://www.jatland.com/home/Hinglajgarh

        http://www.jatland.com/home/Taxakeshwar

        Regards,
        __________________
        Laxman Burdak


      • Ravi Chaudhary
        Luxmanji Good piece of work members should add to this ravi
        Message 3 of 14 , Sep 2, 2008
          Luxmanji


          Good piece of work

          members should add to this



          ravi

          --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "Laxman Burdak" <lr_burdak@...> wrote:
          >
          > Mandsaur district in Madhya Pradesh, situated in the Malwa region, is
          > very important from the point of view of Jat History.
        • history.geek@ymail.com
          That s interesting but Virk Jats of Punjab trace their origin to Manhas Rajputs who took to farming and merged with Jats for various reasons. Nawab Kapur
          Message 4 of 14 , Sep 13, 2009
            That's interesting but Virk Jats of Punjab trace their origin to Manhas Rajputs who took to farming and merged with Jats for various reasons. Nawab Kapur Singh, Khalsa Jathedar of 18th century, was from Virk Jat family and led Sikh resistance to Afghans and Mughals at a critical time.

            History Geek

            --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "Ajay Singh" <asingh71@...> wrote:
            >
            > A Great Work Sir.Thanks.
            >
            > On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 7:46 AM, Laxman Burdak <lr_burdak@...> wrote:
            >
            > > Mandsaur district in Madhya Pradesh, situated in the Malwa region, is
            > > very important from the point of view of Jat History. Mandsaur and
            > > its neighborhood are full of archaeological interest. An inscription
            > > discovered near the town indicated the erection of a temple of the
            > > sun in 437, and at Sondani near Mandsaur are two great monolith
            > > pillars recording a victory of Yasodharman, a Virk Jat King of Malwa,
            > > in 528 AD.
            > >
            > > I have visited this area on 25-28 August 2008 and provided new facts
            > > linking with the Jat History. These are updated on Jatland Wiki along
            > > with Photographs. Interested members may see at links below:
            > >
            > > http://www.jatland.com/home/Mandsaur
            > >
            > > http://www.jatland.com/home/Hinglajgarh
            > >
            > > http://www.jatland.com/home/Taxakeshwar
            > >
            > > Regards,
            > > __________________
            > > Laxman Burdak
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • Simranjit Singh Sandhu
            An interesting thing is that for my Y-dna str profile , i have an exact 12 marker match with a Virk Jatt.It means a 70% chance of a common ancestor in the last
            Message 5 of 14 , Sep 14, 2009
              An interesting thing is that for my Y-dna str profile , i have an exact 12 marker match with a Virk Jatt.
              It means a 70% chance of a common ancestor in the last 12 generations , and if we go up to 24 generations, the probability goes up to 90%.
              This means that we had a common ancestor possibly around 600-1000 yrs ago. 

              Regards,
              Simran

              On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 11:41 PM, history.geek@... <histriographer@...> wrote:
               

              That's interesting but Virk Jats of Punjab trace their origin to Manhas Rajputs who took to farming and merged with Jats for various reasons. Nawab Kapur Singh, Khalsa Jathedar of 18th century, was from Virk Jat family and led Sikh resistance to Afghans and Mughals at a critical time.

              History Geek



              --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "Ajay Singh" <asingh71@...> wrote:
              >
              > A Great Work Sir.Thanks.
              >
              > On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 7:46 AM, Laxman Burdak <lr_burdak@...> wrote:
              >
              > > Mandsaur district in Madhya Pradesh, situated in the Malwa region, is
              > > very important from the point of view of Jat History. Mandsaur and
              > > its neighborhood are full of archaeological interest. An inscription
              > > discovered near the town indicated the erection of a temple of the
              > > sun in 437, and at Sondani near Mandsaur are two great monolith
              > > pillars recording a victory of Yasodharman, a Virk Jat King of Malwa,
              > > in 528 AD.
              > >
              > > I have visited this area on 25-28 August 2008 and provided new facts
              > > linking with the Jat History. These are updated on Jatland Wiki along
              > > with Photographs. Interested members may see at links below:
              > >
              > > http://www.jatland.com/home/Mandsaur
              > >
              > > http://www.jatland.com/home/Hinglajgarh
              > >
              > > http://www.jatland.com/home/Taxakeshwar
              > >
              > > Regards,
              > > __________________
              > > Laxman Burdak
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >


            • s.s. rana
              Laxman Ji, I have visited the site on Mandasaur indicated by you in this mail. I wish to make the following comments for your consideration: 1. Vishnuvardhana
              Message 6 of 14 , Sep 14, 2009
                Laxman Ji,
                I have visited the site on Mandasaur indicated by you in this mail. I wish to make the following comments for your consideration:
                1. Vishnuvardhana of the Bijayagarh inscription is described as Varika and not Virk. Fleet was not sure of the meaning of the term.However he had surmised it to be a family name. D.C.Sarkar has since examined the term and described it as an Official of superintanding rank. This term occurs in several inscriptions, Brihaspati Smriti and the Rajatarangini as shown by S.P.Tiwari in his monograph  'contibution of inscription to lexicography. He is also more or less in agreement with Sircar.
                2.The statement of Thakur Deshraj that Vishnuvardhana was the father of Yasodharmana goes against known facts of chronology.The known date of Vishnuvadhan is 428 Malava SamvatI.E.371 A.D., whereas the known date of Yashodharman is 589, i.e.532 A.D., a gap of 161 years , ruling out a father son relationship between the two.  

                --- On Mon, 14/9/09, Simranjit Singh Sandhu <simranjits@...> wrote:

                From: Simranjit Singh Sandhu <simranjits@...>
                Subject: Re: [JatHistory] Re: Jat history in Mandsaur Madhya Pradesh
                To: JatHistory@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Monday, 14 September, 2009, 9:07 PM

                 
                An interesting thing is that for my Y-dna str profile , i have an exact 12 marker match with a Virk Jatt.
                It means a 70% chance of a common ancestor in the last 12 generations , and if we go up to 24 generations, the probability goes up to 90%.
                This means that we had a common ancestor possibly around 600-1000 yrs ago. 

                Regards,
                Simran

                On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 11:41 PM, history.geek@ ymail.com <histriographer@ gmail.com> wrote:
                 
                That's interesting but Virk Jats of Punjab trace their origin to Manhas Rajputs who took to farming and merged with Jats for various reasons. Nawab Kapur Singh, Khalsa Jathedar of 18th century, was from Virk Jat family and led Sikh resistance to Afghans and Mughals at a critical time.

                History Geek


                --- In JatHistory@yahoogro ups.com, "Ajay Singh" <asingh71@...> wrote:
                >
                > A Great Work Sir.Thanks.
                >
                > On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 7:46 AM, Laxman Burdak <lr_burdak@.. .> wrote:
                >
                > > Mandsaur district in Madhya Pradesh, situated in the Malwa region, is
                > > very important from the point of view of Jat History. Mandsaur and
                > > its neighborhood are full of archaeological interest. An inscription
                > > discovered near the town indicated the erection of a temple of the
                > > sun in 437, and at Sondani near Mandsaur are two great monolith
                > > pillars recording a victory of Yasodharman, a Virk Jat King of Malwa,
                > > in 528 AD.
                > >
                > > I have visited this area on 25-28 August 2008 and provided new facts
                > > linking with the Jat History. These are updated on Jatland Wiki along
                > > with Photographs. Interested members may see at links below:
                > >
                > > http://www.jatland. com/home/ Mandsaur
                > >
                > > http://www.jatland. com/home/ Hinglajgarh
                > >
                > > http://www.jatland. com/home/ Taxakeshwar
                > >
                > > Regards,
                > > ____________ ______
                > > Laxman Burdak
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >




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              • Ajay Singh
                Sir, It has been proven that Rajput word itself is coined later in the history. Jats were mentioned long before the name of Rajput even mentioned.So your
                Message 7 of 14 , Sep 15, 2009
                  Sir, It has been proven that Rajput word itself is coined later in the history. Jats were mentioned long before the name of Rajput even mentioned.So your thought or question is nullified.

                  On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 11:41 AM, history.geek@... <histriographer@...> wrote:
                   

                  That's interesting but Virk Jats of Punjab trace their origin to Manhas Rajputs who took to farming and merged with Jats for various reasons. Nawab Kapur Singh, Khalsa Jathedar of 18th century, was from Virk Jat family and led Sikh resistance to Afghans and Mughals at a critical time.

                  History Geek

                  --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "Ajay Singh" <asingh71@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > A Great Work Sir.Thanks.
                  >
                  > On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 7:46 AM, Laxman Burdak <lr_burdak@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Mandsaur district in Madhya Pradesh, situated in the Malwa region, is
                  > > very important from the point of view of Jat History. Mandsaur and
                  > > its neighborhood are full of archaeological interest. An inscription
                  > > discovered near the town indicated the erection of a temple of the
                  > > sun in 437, and at Sondani near Mandsaur are two great monolith
                  > > pillars recording a victory of Yasodharman, a Virk Jat King of Malwa,
                  > > in 528 AD.
                  > >
                  > > I have visited this area on 25-28 August 2008 and provided new facts
                  > > linking with the Jat History. These are updated on Jatland Wiki along
                  > > with Photographs. Interested members may see at links below:
                  > >
                  > > http://www.jatland.com/home/Mandsaur
                  > >
                  > > http://www.jatland.com/home/Hinglajgarh
                  > >
                  > > http://www.jatland.com/home/Taxakeshwar
                  > >
                  > > Regards,
                  > > __________________
                  > > Laxman Burdak
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >


                • ravichaudhary2000
                  ... This is standard story, which has no basis. We have discussed this - jat- rajput question innumerable times before. Could you please go through the
                  Message 8 of 14 , Sep 16, 2009
                    --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "history.geek@..." <histriographer@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > That's interesting but Virk Jats of Punjab trace their origin to Manhas Rajputs who took to farming and merged with Jats for various reasons.
                    >
                    > History Geek



                    This is standard story, which has no basis.

                    We have discussed this - jat- rajput question innumerable times before.

                    Could you please go through the archives here, and then give us facts, line of reasoning, for your comment, if you are still of the same view.

                    Ravi Chaudhary
                  • history.geek@ymail.com
                    Hi Ravi Ji and Ajay Ji, This is an interesting debate. I do not hold any personal opinion on this one way or the other, nor should it matter. I will definitely
                    Message 9 of 14 , Sep 16, 2009
                      Hi Ravi Ji and Ajay Ji,

                      This is an interesting debate. I do not hold any personal opinion on this one way or the other, nor should it matter. I will definitely look through the archives.

                      But just on the same point, here is description provided by well known Jat Sikh scholar HS Duleh in his book "Jattan Da Itihas" on Virk Jats and Rajputs. I am reading and translating in verbatim from gurmukhi script, hoping that it will inform your stimulating debates in some way:

                      "Virks are an important and large "got" (sub clan) of Jats. These are of Saka ancestry. Their ancester was called Virk. These Jats were very dare-devil and brave. "Burey" are also offshoot of Virks. Sir Ibbetson linked Virks to Manhas Rajputs in his well researched book "Punjab Castes". Manhas are also Jats and Rajputs. Manhas Rajputs consider them superior to Manhas Jats. According to Virks, their "Vadera" (ancestor) migrated out of Jammu to village Khuchali in district Amritsar. They consider him linked with royal family of Jammu. This ancestor of Virks entered in matrimonial alliance with Gill Jats. His childern from his Gill wife got separated from their original 'varna'. The Jats of Virk "got" (gotra) consider Mal Hans to be their 'vadera' or ancestor who ruled the area around Sialkot, while his brother Suraj Hans ruled Jammu area. The 12 sons of Raja Malhans are known to be of Manhas Rajput lineage. Virks are also from this lineage. The people belonging to Virk brotherhood went beyond Amritsar to Lahore, Sialkot, Gujranwala and Shekhupura. In Gujranwala Virks have 132 villages. According to 1881 census, in Gujrwala there were 15944 Virk Jats ad 6871 Virk Rajputs. Lahore district had 6164 Virk Jats. In Sialkot there were around 3000 Virks. On all the three banks of river Chenab Muslim and Sikh Virk Jats were populated in majority...."

                      Reference: HS Duleh, Jattan Da Itihas, page 165

                      Translator's Note: This is translation of only first paragraph of section dedicated to Virks. In the subsequent para he also writes that some historians link Virks to Bhati Rajputs.

                      I generally do not believe every word this author writes unless I can trace it back to primary history text. I would recommend the same to others. References from primary history texts , numismatics, relics , etc always supercede history based on informant accounts only. Ibbestson's and also Dulleh's work are generally based on informant accounts (not always reliable).

                      Regards

                      History Geek

                      --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "ravichaudhary2000" <ravichaudhary2000@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "history.geek@" <histriographer@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > That's interesting but Virk Jats of Punjab trace their origin to Manhas Rajputs who took to farming and merged with Jats for various reasons.
                      > >
                      > > History Geek
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > This is standard story, which has no basis.
                      >
                      > We have discussed this - jat- rajput question innumerable times before.
                      >
                      > Could you please go through the archives here, and then give us facts, line of reasoning, for your comment, if you are still of the same view.
                      >
                      > Ravi Chaudhary
                      >
                    • ravichaudhary2000
                      I would hesitate to use terms like Well Known for Duleh ji If he just quoting Ibbetson, that will not do, for Ibbetson is simply writing from hearsay .
                      Message 10 of 14 , Sep 16, 2009
                        I would hesitate to use terms like ' Well Known" for Duleh ji

                        If he just quoting Ibbetson, that will not do, for Ibbetson is simply writing from " hearsay". Has he done any research?

                        This silly story, that the poor 'Virks' were ' Rajputs' before they took to agriculture, and thus became degraded into 'jats', does not hold any water academically.

                        This topic has been discussed many many times before.


                        We can get into that side of the topic, when it is necessary.

                        Before we do that, you should go into the archives and read what is there and the arguments that have been put forward.- for and against.

                        Now we are more interested in primary sources, not secondary and tertiary ones.


                        Ravi

                        --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "history.geek@..." <histriographer@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Ravi Ji and Ajay Ji,
                        >
                        > This is an interesting debate. I do not hold any personal opinion on this one way or the other, nor should it matter. I will definitely look through the archives.
                        >
                        > But just on the same point, here is description provided by well known Jat Sikh scholar HS Duleh in his book "Jattan Da Itihas" on Virk Jats and Rajputs. I am reading and translating in verbatim from gurmukhi script, hoping that it will inform your stimulating debates in some way:
                        >
                        > "Virks are an important and large "got" (sub clan) of Jats. These are of Saka ancestry. Their ancester was called Virk. These Jats were very dare-devil and brave. "Burey" are also offshoot of Virks. Sir Ibbetson linked Virks to Manhas Rajputs in his well researched book "Punjab Castes". Manhas are also Jats and Rajputs. Manhas Rajputs consider them superior to Manhas Jats. According to Virks, their "Vadera" (ancestor) migrated out of Jammu to village Khuchali in district Amritsar. They consider him linked with royal family of Jammu. This ancestor of Virks entered in matrimonial alliance with Gill Jats. His childern from his Gill wife got separated from their original 'varna'. The Jats of Virk "got" (gotra) consider Mal Hans to be their 'vadera' or ancestor who ruled the area around Sialkot, while his brother Suraj Hans ruled Jammu area. The 12 sons of Raja Malhans are known to be of Manhas Rajput lineage. Virks are also from this lineage. The people belonging to Virk brotherhood went beyond Amritsar to Lahore, Sialkot, Gujranwala and Shekhupura. In Gujranwala Virks have 132 villages. According to 1881 census, in Gujrwala there were 15944 Virk Jats ad 6871 Virk Rajputs. Lahore district had 6164 Virk Jats. In Sialkot there were around 3000 Virks. On all the three banks of river Chenab Muslim and Sikh Virk Jats were populated in majority...."
                        >
                        > Reference: HS Duleh, Jattan Da Itihas, page 165
                        >
                        > Translator's Note: This is translation of only first paragraph of section dedicated to Virks. In the subsequent para he also writes that some historians link Virks to Bhati Rajputs.
                        >
                        > I generally do not believe every word this author writes unless I can trace it back to primary history text. I would recommend the same to others. References from primary history texts , numismatics, relics , etc always supercede history based on informant accounts only. Ibbestson's and also Dulleh's work are generally based on informant accounts (not always reliable).
                        >
                        > Regards
                        >
                        > History Geek
                        >
                        > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "ravichaudhary2000" <ravichaudhary2000@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "history.geek@" <histriographer@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > That's interesting but Virk Jats of Punjab trace their origin to Manhas Rajputs who took to farming and merged with Jats for various reasons.
                        > > >
                        > > > History Geek
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > This is standard story, which has no basis.
                        > >
                        > > We have discussed this - jat- rajput question innumerable times before.
                        > >
                        > > Could you please go through the archives here, and then give us facts, line of reasoning, for your comment, if you are still of the same view.
                        > >
                        > > Ravi Chaudhary
                        > >
                        >
                      • history.geek@ymail.com
                        Like I said, Sir, I do not actually believe every word this author writes and he seems to be relying on Ibbetson who based his account on whatever Virk Jats of
                        Message 11 of 14 , Sep 16, 2009
                          Like I said, Sir, I do not actually believe every word this author writes and he seems to be relying on Ibbetson who based his account on whatever Virk Jats of Punjab told him or his deputies during 1880 census. We cannot assume these Virk Jat informants were really informed of their own history. It is not a primary text reference. So I see your point.

                          The reason I called him 'well known' is because Jat Sikhs generally quote him or Nijjar sometimes on a lot of historial issues. Maybe he is not that well-known outside Punjabi community.

                          Cheers

                          HG

                          --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "ravichaudhary2000" <ravichaudhary2000@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I would hesitate to use terms like ' Well Known" for Duleh ji
                          >
                          > If he just quoting Ibbetson, that will not do, for Ibbetson is simply writing from " hearsay". Has he done any research?
                          >
                          > This silly story, that the poor 'Virks' were ' Rajputs' before they took to agriculture, and thus became degraded into 'jats', does not hold any water academically.
                          >
                          > This topic has been discussed many many times before.
                          >
                          >
                          > We can get into that side of the topic, when it is necessary.
                          >
                          > Before we do that, you should go into the archives and read what is there and the arguments that have been put forward.- for and against.
                          >
                          > Now we are more interested in primary sources, not secondary and tertiary ones.
                          >
                          >
                          > Ravi
                          >
                          > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "history.geek@" <histriographer@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hi Ravi Ji and Ajay Ji,
                          > >
                          > > This is an interesting debate. I do not hold any personal opinion on this one way or the other, nor should it matter. I will definitely look through the archives.
                          > >
                          > > But just on the same point, here is description provided by well known Jat Sikh scholar HS Duleh in his book "Jattan Da Itihas" on Virk Jats and Rajputs. I am reading and translating in verbatim from gurmukhi script, hoping that it will inform your stimulating debates in some way:
                          > >
                          > > "Virks are an important and large "got" (sub clan) of Jats. These are of Saka ancestry. Their ancester was called Virk. These Jats were very dare-devil and brave. "Burey" are also offshoot of Virks. Sir Ibbetson linked Virks to Manhas Rajputs in his well researched book "Punjab Castes". Manhas are also Jats and Rajputs. Manhas Rajputs consider them superior to Manhas Jats. According to Virks, their "Vadera" (ancestor) migrated out of Jammu to village Khuchali in district Amritsar. They consider him linked with royal family of Jammu. This ancestor of Virks entered in matrimonial alliance with Gill Jats. His childern from his Gill wife got separated from their original 'varna'. The Jats of Virk "got" (gotra) consider Mal Hans to be their 'vadera' or ancestor who ruled the area around Sialkot, while his brother Suraj Hans ruled Jammu area. The 12 sons of Raja Malhans are known to be of Manhas Rajput lineage. Virks are also from this lineage. The people belonging to Virk brotherhood went beyond Amritsar to Lahore, Sialkot, Gujranwala and Shekhupura. In Gujranwala Virks have 132 villages. According to 1881 census, in Gujrwala there were 15944 Virk Jats ad 6871 Virk Rajputs. Lahore district had 6164 Virk Jats. In Sialkot there were around 3000 Virks. On all the three banks of river Chenab Muslim and Sikh Virk Jats were populated in majority...."
                          > >
                          > > Reference: HS Duleh, Jattan Da Itihas, page 165
                          > >
                          > > Translator's Note: This is translation of only first paragraph of section dedicated to Virks. In the subsequent para he also writes that some historians link Virks to Bhati Rajputs.
                          > >
                          > > I generally do not believe every word this author writes unless I can trace it back to primary history text. I would recommend the same to others. References from primary history texts , numismatics, relics , etc always supercede history based on informant accounts only. Ibbestson's and also Dulleh's work are generally based on informant accounts (not always reliable).
                          > >
                          > > Regards
                          > >
                          > > History Geek
                          > >
                          > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "ravichaudhary2000" <ravichaudhary2000@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "history.geek@" <histriographer@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > That's interesting but Virk Jats of Punjab trace their origin to Manhas Rajputs who took to farming and merged with Jats for various reasons.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > History Geek
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > This is standard story, which has no basis.
                          > > >
                          > > > We have discussed this - jat- rajput question innumerable times before.
                          > > >
                          > > > Could you please go through the archives here, and then give us facts, line of reasoning, for your comment, if you are still of the same view.
                          > > >
                          > > > Ravi Chaudhary
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • ravichaudhary2000
                          Actualy Duleh writes of a number of Sikhs families who started to claim Rajput identity- the Phulikian states Patiala, Jind , Nabha etc. and other families
                          Message 12 of 14 , Sep 16, 2009
                            Actualy

                            Duleh writes of a number of Sikhs families who started to claim Rajput identity- the Phulikian states Patiala, Jind , Nabha etc.

                            and other families too.

                            He was reporting what he heard.

                            Under the British period it was fashionable for the princely families to claim Rajput descent as it glorified them.

                            As Thakur Desraj put it, they had forgotten their own history.

                            Now these families are going away from claiming such identity as the rajput star wanes and as thye discover their own history, which thye had been ignorant of.


                            This happens all the time

                            Ravi




                            --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "history.geek@..." <histriographer@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Like I said, Sir, I do not actually believe every word this author writes and he seems to be relying on Ibbetson who based his account on whatever Virk Jats of Punjab told him or his deputies during 1880 census. We cannot assume these Virk Jat informants were really informed of their own history. It is not a primary text reference. So I see your point.
                            >
                            > The reason I called him 'well known' is because Jat Sikhs generally quote him or Nijjar sometimes on a lot of historial issues. Maybe he is not that well-known outside Punjabi community.
                            >
                            > Cheers
                            >
                            > HG
                            >
                            > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "ravichaudhary2000" <ravichaudhary2000@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > I would hesitate to use terms like ' Well Known" for Duleh ji
                            > >
                            > > If he just quoting Ibbetson, that will not do, for Ibbetson is simply writing from " hearsay". Has he done any research?
                            > >
                            > > This silly story, that the poor 'Virks' were ' Rajputs' before they took to agriculture, and thus became degraded into 'jats', does not hold any water academically.
                            > >
                            > > This topic has been discussed many many times before.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > We can get into that side of the topic, when it is necessary.
                            > >
                            > > Before we do that, you should go into the archives and read what is there and the arguments that have been put forward.- for and against.
                            > >
                            > > Now we are more interested in primary sources, not secondary and tertiary ones.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Ravi
                            > >
                            > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "history.geek@" <histriographer@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Hi Ravi Ji and Ajay Ji,
                            > > >
                            > > > This is an interesting debate. I do not hold any personal opinion on this one way or the other, nor should it matter. I will definitely look through the archives.
                            > > >
                            > > > But just on the same point, here is description provided by well known Jat Sikh scholar HS Duleh in his book "Jattan Da Itihas" on Virk Jats and Rajputs. I am reading and translating in verbatim from gurmukhi script, hoping that it will inform your stimulating debates in some way:
                            > > >
                            > > > "Virks are an important and large "got" (sub clan) of Jats. These are of Saka ancestry. Their ancester was called Virk. These Jats were very dare-devil and brave. "Burey" are also offshoot of Virks. Sir Ibbetson linked Virks to Manhas Rajputs in his well researched book "Punjab Castes". Manhas are also Jats and Rajputs. Manhas Rajputs consider them superior to Manhas Jats. According to Virks, their "Vadera" (ancestor) migrated out of Jammu to village Khuchali in district Amritsar. They consider him linked with royal family of Jammu. This ancestor of Virks entered in matrimonial alliance with Gill Jats. His childern from his Gill wife got separated from their original 'varna'. The Jats of Virk "got" (gotra) consider Mal Hans to be their 'vadera' or ancestor who ruled the area around Sialkot, while his brother Suraj Hans ruled Jammu area. The 12 sons of Raja Malhans are known to be of Manhas Rajput lineage. Virks are also from this lineage. The people belonging to Virk brotherhood went beyond Amritsar to Lahore, Sialkot, Gujranwala and Shekhupura. In Gujranwala Virks have 132 villages. According to 1881 census, in Gujrwala there were 15944 Virk Jats ad 6871 Virk Rajputs. Lahore district had 6164 Virk Jats. In Sialkot there were around 3000 Virks. On all the three banks of river Chenab Muslim and Sikh Virk Jats were populated in majority...."
                            > > >
                            > > > Reference: HS Duleh, Jattan Da Itihas, page 165
                            > > >
                            > > > Translator's Note: This is translation of only first paragraph of section dedicated to Virks. In the subsequent para he also writes that some historians link Virks to Bhati Rajputs.
                            > > >
                            > > > I generally do not believe every word this author writes unless I can trace it back to primary history text. I would recommend the same to others. References from primary history texts , numismatics, relics , etc always supercede history based on informant accounts only. Ibbestson's and also Dulleh's work are generally based on informant accounts (not always reliable).
                            > > >
                            > > > Regards
                            > > >
                            > > > History Geek
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "ravichaudhary2000" <ravichaudhary2000@> wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "history.geek@" <histriographer@> wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > That's interesting but Virk Jats of Punjab trace their origin to Manhas Rajputs who took to farming and merged with Jats for various reasons.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > History Geek
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > This is standard story, which has no basis.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > We have discussed this - jat- rajput question innumerable times before.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Could you please go through the archives here, and then give us facts, line of reasoning, for your comment, if you are still of the same view.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Ravi Chaudhary
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • ravichaudhary2000
                            - Duleh is not that popular among the Jat Sikhs, for writing such material. Ravi
                            Message 13 of 14 , Sep 16, 2009
                              - Duleh is not that popular among the Jat Sikhs, for writing such material.

                              Ravi
                            • Ajay Singh
                              HG, Great maratha king was linked to Sisodia Rajputs and was cornated as Chatrapati just 4 years before his death. He was one of the great military generals
                              Message 14 of 14 , Sep 18, 2009
                                HG,
                                Great maratha king was linked to Sisodia Rajputs and was cornated as "Chatrapati" just 4 years before his death. He was one of the great military generals of India and but was linked to rajputs after he gave lot money to brahmins. Lot of interpretation at various places but the fact is "Jat" is an old name and tribe than Rajputs. Chack chronolgy of islamic history and in 837 there was mention of "revolt of Jats"..Rajpu term is coined very late close to 13th century or later

                                On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 11:10 AM, history.geek@... <histriographer@...> wrote:
                                 

                                Hi Ravi Ji and Ajay Ji,

                                This is an interesting debate. I do not hold any personal opinion on this one way or the other, nor should it matter. I will definitely look through the archives.

                                But just on the same point, here is description provided by well known Jat Sikh scholar HS Duleh in his book "Jattan Da Itihas" on Virk Jats and Rajputs. I am reading and translating in verbatim from gurmukhi script, hoping that it will inform your stimulating debates in some way:

                                "Virks are an important and large "got" (sub clan) of Jats. These are of Saka ancestry. Their ancester was called Virk. These Jats were very dare-devil and brave. "Burey" are also offshoot of Virks. Sir Ibbetson linked Virks to Manhas Rajputs in his well researched book "Punjab Castes". Manhas are also Jats and Rajputs. Manhas Rajputs consider them superior to Manhas Jats. According to Virks, their "Vadera" (ancestor) migrated out of Jammu to village Khuchali in district Amritsar. They consider him linked with royal family of Jammu. This ancestor of Virks entered in matrimonial alliance with Gill Jats. His childern from his Gill wife got separated from their original 'varna'. The Jats of Virk "got" (gotra) consider Mal Hans to be their 'vadera' or ancestor who ruled the area around Sialkot, while his brother Suraj Hans ruled Jammu area. The 12 sons of Raja Malhans are known to be of Manhas Rajput lineage. Virks are also from this lineage. The people belonging to Virk brotherhood went beyond Amritsar to Lahore, Sialkot, Gujranwala and Shekhupura. In Gujranwala Virks have 132 villages. According to 1881 census, in Gujrwala there were 15944 Virk Jats ad 6871 Virk Rajputs. Lahore district had 6164 Virk Jats. In Sialkot there were around 3000 Virks. On all the three banks of river Chenab Muslim and Sikh Virk Jats were populated in majority...."

                                Reference: HS Duleh, Jattan Da Itihas, page 165

                                Translator's Note: This is translation of only first paragraph of section dedicated to Virks. In the subsequent para he also writes that some historians link Virks to Bhati Rajputs.

                                I generally do not believe every word this author writes unless I can trace it back to primary history text. I would recommend the same to others. References from primary history texts , numismatics, relics , etc always supercede history based on informant accounts only. Ibbestson's and also Dulleh's work are generally based on informant accounts (not always reliable).

                                Regards

                                History Geek

                                --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "ravichaudhary2000" <ravichaudhary2000@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > --- In JatHistory@yahoogroups.com, "history.geek@" <histriographer@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > That's interesting but Virk Jats of Punjab trace their origin to Manhas Rajputs who took to farming and merged with Jats for various reasons.
                                > >
                                > > History Geek
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > This is standard story, which has no basis.
                                >
                                > We have discussed this - jat- rajput question innumerable times before.
                                >
                                > Could you please go through the archives here, and then give us facts, line of reasoning, for your comment, if you are still of the same view.
                                >
                                > Ravi Chaudhary
                                >


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