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25594Re: [Janshakti] Re: [issuesonline_worldwide] Education past and present

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  • Jai Raj Yadav
    Jan 21, 2014

      It essential that original source(in this case Vedic sloka text ) be quoted to for people to judge atleast by those who understand Sanskrit.

      Quoting some ones's translation that may translators distortions as per the depth of his understanding or vested interests to distort meaning of sloka.
      Jairaj Yadav

      From: Rabinder Koul <ravindrakkoul@...>
      To: Janshakti@yahoogroups.com
      Cc: Rabinder Koul <RavindraKKoul@...>; Xavier William <varekatx@...>
      Sent: Wednesday, 22 January 2014 5:52 AM
      Subject: Re: [Janshakti] Re: [issuesonline_worldwide] Education past and present

      This is what this Jesuit Xavier writes regarding Rigveda Mandla 8, Sukta 33 Mantra 17. (8.33.17)

      In the Vedas:"Lord Indra himself has said, 'The mind of woman cannot be disciplined; she has very little intelligence.' -- Rig Veda 8:33:17.

      This what the actual Mantra is;

      IndraShchidgha tadabraveetstriyaa ashaasyam mana: | Uto aha kratum raghum  ||

      Indra:  chidgha tad abraveet striyaa ashaasyam mana: (This portion says Indra thought and then said, Women’s manas is difficult to control by any one. 

      (To start with here one should know in Indian psychological theories, it is considered very difficult to control even your own Manas, forget about others.)

      Uto aha Kratum Raghum,    Uto (and)   aha (indeed) Kratum (to act in present tense first person)   Raghum (moving fast);  implying that, and indeed Manas acts very fast.  
      Uto aha Kratum Raghum implies indeed this mind acts fast runs fast.  

      Notice there is no word for intellect in this verse, that  this ignorant Jesuit Xavier uses in his translation.  (The term for intellect is Buddhi)

      Notice the number of ignorant or malicious translational dis-honesties his Jesuit translator or this Xavier uses. Clearly he is lie a monkey, read, not with the intent of understanding but with the intent of demeaning and denigrating.  Her is the summary of his non-sense

      1. The Mantra talks about “Manas” to start with and not some heart. Next he is talking about controlling woman’s  Manas (crude equivalent word would be mind)
      2. Notice Manas is well defined term and has technical meaning, where as Mind is a loose term, and has loose meaning. In addition the ignorant or Maliciousness,  translator takes the liberty to change Manas to ‘heart”. 
      3. The fact that Indian tradition maintains,  that it i every difficult to control ones own mind be it man or woman.on top of that here a man wants to control a woman’s Manas, that will be impossible. That is what Indra is saying
      4. He next says why it is impossible to control the Mans. Because MANAS indeed moves with fast speed. 
      5. The translator changes the fast speed of the MANS (mind) in to intellect. That is one heck of an ignorant translation at best or at worst a malicious and intentional i.e. being propagated.
      6. Xavier should be ashamed of himself, which will be impossible, given the fact that he is Jesuit.

      Xavier should stop wasting time here. It takes time to dig up the Mantra and then educate this minimally literate Xavier. One does not have infinite time to refute his stupidity. And that is what he is relying on.

      Ravindra Koul
      अस्मद्रूपसमाविष्ठ: स्वात्मनात्मानिवारणे 
      शिव: करोतु निजया नम: शक्त्या ततात्मने 

      On Jan 21, 2014, at 4:37 PM, Xavier William <varekatx@...> wrote:


      I submit to your argument without any evidence that India was the highest civilization in the world. The technology for making rockets and nuclear arms and computers were known to the Brahmins who wrote the Rigveda which according to scholars was written from 3500 BCE onwards. 1700 years pass and then we see Dasarath going hunting in a horse-drawn chariot. Does not that strike you as strange that the king in a society that had acquired sophisticated technology in 3000 BCE was using primitive technology on 1700 BCE? Of course I know that no amount of evidence is going to convince you of anything.
      After Dasarath comes Ram and he has to prove his mettle by using the bow in order to marry Sita. This again is primitive technology. Even a policeman now has better techlogy now.
      300-400 years pass after Ram and we are on the grounds of Kurukshetra and here too the biggest philosopher scientist India has known is sitting in another horse-drawn chariot and advising Arjuna. He then takes on the Viswaroop of frightening proportions. But not even the ordinary soldiers on the Kaurava side are intimidated and the war goes on as if Viswaroop did not matter. Where was this sophisticated technology of yours even 2000 years after it had been made available to your ancestors?
      Krishna had the Sudarsana Chakra which according to the Puranas, was used for the ultimate destruction of an enemy.  Where was this chakra when wave after wave of enemies attacked India?
      Hindutvadis boast that they had sophisticated battle strategies such as the Padmavyooha from which there was no escape. Where was this when the Chines attacked India in 1962?
      I am fed up with arguing with you whose minds are so warped that no amount of reasoning will get to you. Your description of Lucas talking with Jesus is the biggest joke I have heard. Lukose was a writer who had not even met Jesus and you fabricate tales in typical fashion of Hindutvadis. You boast and boast about the Vedas being technologically sophisticated. Can you please cite a single verse which expounds any technology worth the name except for chariots and bows and arrows? They did not even know to spin clothes on a mass scale and so Ram and Krishn had no shirts on and most if not all women went topless like their menYou guys are hypnotised and will never get out of your reverie. 
      Kaul boasts that rapes and destruction was unknown in ancient India. Here are some snippets from ancient India which will set the record straight
      Brhadārankyaka Upanishad scripture(advocating rape):Surely, a woman who has changed her clothes at the end of her menstrual period is the most auspicious of women. When she has changed her clothes at the end of her menstrual period, therefore, one should approach that splendid woman and invite her to have sex. Should she refuse to consent, he should bribe her. If she still refuses, he should beat her with a stick or with his fists and overpower her, saying: “I take away the splendor from you with my virility and splendor (6.4.9,21).

      In Dharmasastra, which is a Hindu moral and legal text(all women are whores):Good looks do not matter to them, nor do they care about youth; 'A man!' they say, and enjoy sex with him, whether he is good-looking or ugly. By running after men like whores, by their fickle minds, and by their naturallack of affection these women are unfaithful to their husbands even when they are zealously guarded here. Knowing that their very own nature is like this, as it was born at the creation by the Lord of Creatures (Prajapati), a man should make the utmost effort to guard them. The bed and the seat, jewellery, lust, anger, crookedness, a malicious nature, and bad conduct are what Manu assigned to women. There is no ritual with Vedic verses for women; this is a firmly established point of law. For women, who have no virile strength, and no Vedic verses, are falsehood; this is well established. Manusmrti 9:14-18.

      In the Vedas:"Lord Indra himself has said, 'The mind of woman cannot be disciplined; she has very little intelligence.' -- Rig Veda 8:33:17.

      In the Purunas(Hindu Gods Rape Gautama's wife)Formerly the gods lusted for Gautama's wife and raped her, for their wits were destroyed by lust. Then they were terrified and went to the sage Durvasas [an incarnation of Siva], who said, 'I will remove all your defilements with the Satarudriya Mantra [an ancient Saiva prayer].' Then he gave them ashes which they smeared upon their bodies, and their sins were shaken off. -- Padma Purana 4:101:174-9.

      In the Smriti(method of turning women back to virgins):"A woman who has been unchaste should worship Siva in his calm aspect, Siva who is Kama. Then she should summon a Brahmin and give herself to him, thinking, 'This is Kama who has come for the sake of sexual pleasure.' Andwhatever the Brahmin wishes, the sensuous woman should do. For thirteen months she should honour in this way any Brahmin who comes to the house for the sake of sexual pleasures, and there is no immorality in this for noble ladies or prostitutes." -- Matsya Purana 70:40-60; cf. Mahabharata III:2:23.

      On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 6:47 PM, S kumar <kumar_8134@...> wrote:


      1.Are you not aware that Thakshasilla(Taxilla), Ladakh MOnasteries, Khatmandu, Patliputra(Patna) and Puri were important Centres of learning for Centuries before Jesus, and Jesus spent his 12-27, 15 years in these locations learning Hindu and Buddhist philosophies? In Gospel of Lucal, Jesus is reported to hve told Lucas" Lucas, we are close to each other as we both were born of the same star". The concept of birth star among 27 stars is still followed in South- even among Muslims and Christians in Kerala, the Northern parts of the Country having forgotten the importance due to invasions of alien culture and religions.

      2. Are you aware that Socrates spent a few years learning Indian philosophy and Sciences from Sage Susrutha, contemporary of Buddha- 535BC and on return to Greece sent his disciple Hippocrates to learn basics of medicine. Sage Nagarjuna, Susrutha's disciple taught Hippocrates medicine and modern medicine has Hippocrates as Father of medicine.

      3. Excavations in Munich revealed Germans were prearranged cannibals 5000 years back, the targeted human slaughtered and consumed by prearranged decisions. This was a period when in India, there was advanced civilisation in Harappa-Mohenjadaro stretching from Punjab to Gujarat,?

      You have read European and British History and not Indian history of the earlier period when Greeks and Mediterranian population sent the students to Centres of learning in India in pre-Jesus period.

      On Tuesday, January 21, 2014 2:36 PM, Xavier William <varekatx@...> wrote:
      A discussion has been going on about English education and ancient education in India. Here it might be relevant to go into the evolution of education as we know it.
      In the primitive stage of human evolution we were like animals and did not need any education. Then we evolved into the agrarian way of life. Here too most of the production activities were based on muscular power - both human and animal muscle power. Here too education was not needed except in large agricultural enterprises or in building monuments like the pyramids or tax collection etc. For this large scale universal education was not necessary. Most of the education was from father to son. Princes and nobles were educated mostly in home-tuition and they were apprenticed to learned men such as Alexander being apprenticed to Aristotle. In India there were gurukulam where too education was imparted to a few and much of it had to do with religious rites etc.
      The industrial revolution changed that. Without education no big industry could be run. There was the need to keep track of stock, customers, suppliers, workers etc and to correspond with them and to keep records for accounting, legal and other purposes. A large army of clerks, accountants and managers became imperative to manage the gargantuan industries and this meant schools, colleges etc where you could churn out educated people with some universal standard in the same way as industries churned out nuts and bolts with the same thread standards. 
      So if there was education in India before the English came it was suited to an agrarian way of life without any standardised syllabus or any public examination. Maybe it was the same in England too at the beginning of the Industrial revolution. But as industries grew and the industrial way of life became universal, education geared to the needs of industries came in with standardises syllabuses and standardised public examinations etc.
      So they are not the English invaders who introduced our present kind of education. Instead it was the need to run industries that introduced the present mode of education. It is not only in India that this system of education is in vogue. All industrial economies of the world as well as the upcoming economies have adopted much the same system of educaiton irrespective of whether they were colonized by the British or not. Now with computers and the internet things will change again drastically and English will become the world language whether we like it or not. So weeping over invasions and other past iniquities is like wailing all your life over milk spilt some 300 years ago.


      Xavier William

      "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." Hitchens


      Xavier William

      "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." Hitchens

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