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Re: [JaneAusten] S&S kindred spirits

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  • Jeanne Stapleton
    ... Kindred spirits would work. Soulmate has more of an exclusive meaning to it. Jeanne __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?
    Message 1 of 6 , Dec 8, 2000
      > Well, kindred spirits have an translation into
      > Swedish. Do you think
      > that Marianne and W was kindred spirits?
      >
      > Regards
      > Anders H
      >
      "Kindred spirits" would work. "Soulmate" has more of
      an exclusive meaning to it.

      Jeanne

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    • Anders Henningsson
      ... Well, I wonder if W didn t just adjusted his views to Marianne s Anders
      Message 2 of 6 , Dec 9, 2000
        Jeanne Stapleton wrote:
        >
        > > Do you think
        > > that Marianne and W was kindred spirits?

        > "Kindred spirits" would work. "Soulmate" has more of
        > an exclusive meaning to it.
        >

        Well, I wonder if W didn't just adjusted his views to Marianne's

        Anders
      • Jeanne Stapleton
        ... Anders, I could see how you might think that. A common cynical response in modern times when a woman speaks of how much she and a guy have in common is
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 18, 2001
          --- Anders Henningsson
          <anders-b.henningsson.768@...> wrote:
          > Jeanne Stapleton wrote:
          > >
          > > > Do you think
          > > > that Marianne and W was kindred spirits?
          >
          > > "Kindred spirits" would work. "Soulmate" has more
          > of
          > > an exclusive meaning to it.
          > >
          >
          > Well, I wonder if W didn't just adjusted his views
          > to Marianne's
          >
          > Anders
          >
          Anders,

          I could see how you might think that. A common
          cynical response in modern times when a woman speaks
          of how much she and a guy have in common is "Oh,
          he's just saying what you want to hear".

          ???

          My thought is, how can anybody possibly "know" what
          someone else "wants to hear"? I've had guys approach
          me talking about money, and it makes me run far and
          fast the opposite direction, since money things are
          a major turn-off to me. (My view: "Rich or poor,
          just *shut up about it*! ;-)) Anyway, how could
          Willoughby have possibly known all the right poetry
          and all the "correct opinions" in advance? Further,
          what would be the point? At the start of the book,
          he has money and an inheritance coming his way. One
          would imagine he would have a reasonable selection
          of young women to attach to himself, and need not
          learn wiles to get a suitable one.

          Jeanne

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        • Jane Dunsworth
          ... Knowing the dynamic of those of Marianne s conversations that are given in detail, it s likely enough that she might have expressed her opinion on
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 18, 2001
            >Anyway, how could
            > Willoughby have possibly known all the right poetry
            > and all the "correct opinions" in advance?

            Knowing the dynamic of those of Marianne's conversations that are given in
            detail, it's likely enough that she might have expressed her opinion on
            everything without prompting, and Willoughby might just have had to agree
            with everything to convince her that he had the right opinions. Remember,
            unlike Edward, whose taste she criticized, she was already infatuated with
            Willoughby almost from the first due to his rescue of her and his charming
            manners and good looks, and so might have been more open with him, and more
            ready to receive his assent to her opinions as equal to actually expressing
            his own good opinions.

            >Further,
            > what would be the point? At the start of the book,
            > he has money and an inheritance coming his way. One
            > would imagine he would have a reasonable selection
            > of young women to attach to himself, and need not
            > learn wiles to get a suitable one.

            Later events show that his initial interest in Marianne was not about
            finding a "suitable" woman, it was about finding her attractive (in many
            senses of the word). Probably he just wanted to do what most of us want to
            do -- impress the people we find attractive in some way. Remember that
            Marianne was very young and very pretty -- a shallow, idle young man like
            Willoughby could easily be envisioned as wanting to make himself pleasing
            just for the sheer pleasure of being admired by such a girl, whether his
            intentions were serious or not. It need not have been any conscious intent
            to deceive, just a natural reaction to the pleasant sensations created by
            the admiration of a pretty, lively girl.

            IOW, I guess it's just a long-winded way of saying we all (or most of us,
            and Willoughby not appearing to be one of the exceptions) want to be liked,
            especially by attractive members of the other sex.

            Jane
          • Jeanne Stapleton
            ... I was rereading this passage carefully last night with this post in mind: while I don t have the exact quote there, the book states basically that
            Message 5 of 6 , Feb 12, 2001
              --- Jane Dunsworth <jdworth@...> wrote:
              > >Anyway, how could
              > > Willoughby have possibly known all the right
              > poetry
              > > and all the "correct opinions" in advance?
              >
              > Knowing the dynamic of those of Marianne's
              > conversations that are given in
              > detail, it's likely enough that she might have
              > expressed her opinion on
              > everything without prompting, and Willoughby might
              > just have had to agree
              > with everything to convince her that he had the
              > right opinions. Remember,
              > unlike Edward, whose taste she criticized, she was
              > already infatuated with
              > Willoughby almost from the first due to his rescue
              > of her and his charming
              > manners and good looks, and so might have been more
              > open with him, and more
              > ready to receive his assent to her opinions as equal
              > to actually expressing
              > his own good opinions.
              >
              I was rereading this passage carefully last night
              with this post in mind: while I don't have the
              exact quote there, the book states basically that
              Marianne's eyes were downcast for much of her
              rescue (out of "modesty") and that she did not have
              a clear impression of his looks from their first
              meeting alone.

              There was also a line in there where it is clear
              that Marianne did speak first in uttering her
              opinions in some cases; and then another which
              supports some of what you have said, basically
              saying that even when Willoughby did voice a
              contrary opinion, how could he not be won over by
              her charming manner and impassioned defense/

              But I believe that they were very much in synch by
              nature. I honestly do not think Austen was trying
              to set us up for the modern "con artist". There
              is never much question that Willoughby was in
              love with Marianne, and really that they were well
              suited to each other, had he but had fortune. I
              believe it is a certain modern cynicism, which I do
              not share, in trying to make matters in retrospect
              that he *really* wasn't that right for her.

              He was. They were soulmates about such matters, if
              not about values. And since I do believe that people
              can inspire each other to change for the better, I
              believe that were it not for choices Willoughby had
              already made, they would've fared pretty well toge-
              ther. The one issue they might have run afoul of,
              even had Lady Allenham left her estate to her nephew
              as planned, was detailed somewhat by Austen in com-
              paring what Marianne believed to be an adequate
              income with what Elinor believed to be an adequate
              income.

              I believe it is also a modern sensibility to rule
              as "the right one" the relationship that "works out"
              in terms of getting to marry someone. That simply
              is not the case. Most of us will not get to marry
              our soulmate. We may marry someone very nice and
              very suitable from externals and do well together--
              marriage is not a black and white success or failure
              issue. But what happened to Marianne was not a
              triumph for her--it was a tragedy. The one note
              that rings false for me about S&S is the ending,
              where Austen assures us Marianne comes to love her
              husband with all the fervor she had for Willoughby.
              The only thing I can think about that, and this *is*
              modern cynicism showing, is that they found sexual
              compatibility--and with a comfortable income, Mari-
              anne never had to want for new music or travel or
              company or other amusements. I'm sure it went well;
              I'm also sure Brandon doesn't deserve to be lauded
              as a "better" match for her, because he's not. I
              believe, as others have written, that Mrs. Dashwood
              was the right mate for the Colonel, in age, tem-
              perament and tastes.

              > >Further,
              > > what would be the point? At the start of the
              > book,
              > > he has money and an inheritance coming his way.
              > One
              > > would imagine he would have a reasonable selection
              > > of young women to attach to himself, and need not
              > > learn wiles to get a suitable one.
              >
              > Later events show that his initial interest in
              > Marianne was not about
              > finding a "suitable" woman, it was about finding her
              > attractive (in many
              > senses of the word). Probably he just wanted to do
              > what most of us want to
              > do -- impress the people we find attractive in some
              > way. Remember that
              > Marianne was very young and very pretty -- a
              > shallow, idle young man like
              > Willoughby could easily be envisioned as wanting to
              > make himself pleasing
              > just for the sheer pleasure of being admired by such
              > a girl, whether his
              > intentions were serious or not. It need not have
              > been any conscious intent
              > to deceive, just a natural reaction to the pleasant
              > sensations created by
              > the admiration of a pretty, lively girl.
              >
              He says that that was his initial intent. He fell in
              love with her.

              Jeanne

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