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Re: NWT

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  • a_measured_brush
    You are right; the Greek has no punctuation and so it is up to the translator who translates into languages which do have punctuation to put it in
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 19, 2007

      You are right; the Greek has no punctuation and so it is up to the translator who translates into languages which do have punctuation to put it in themselves, and in cases like this it does affect the meaning of the passage where the punctuation is inserted. First of all the New World translation is not the only one which words this in such a way that Jesus is saying "I am telling you this day", and then leaves the question open about when the man being executed alongside Christ would be in paradise:

      (Rotherham) Luke 23:43 And he said unto him--Verily, I say unto thee this day: With me, shalt thou be in Paradise.

      The translator has to put in the punctuation that is in harmony with what the Bible says overall. Many people claim that the paradise that Jesus spoke of was in heaven, but if that is true was Jesus himself in heaven that same day? The Bible  says that he was not resurrected until the third day:

      (Matthew 20:17-19) 17 Being now about to go up to Jerusalem, Jesus took the twelve disciples off privately and said to them on the road: 18 "Look! We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of man will be delivered up to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn him to death, 19 and will deliver him up to [men of] the nations to make fun of and to scourge and to impale, and the third day he will be raised up."

      (Matthew 27:62-64) 62 The next day, which was after the Preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered together before Pilate, 63 saying: "Sir, we have called to mind that that impostor said while yet alive, `After three days I am to be raised up.' 64 Therefore command the grave to be made secure until the third day, that his disciples may never come and steal him and say to the people, `He was raised up from the dead!' and this last imposture will be worse than the first."

      (Luke 23:50-24:5) 50 And, look! a man named Joseph, who was a member of the Council, a good and righteous man— 51 this [man] had not voted in support of their design and action—he was from Ar·i·ma·the´a, a city of the Ju·de´ans, and was waiting for the kingdom of God; 52 this man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. 53 And he took it down and wrapped it up in fine linen, and he laid him in a tomb carved in the rock, in which no man had yet lain. 54 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the evening light of the sabbath was approaching. 55 But the women, who had come with him out of Gal´i·lee, followed along and took a look at the memorial tomb and how his body was laid; 56 and they went back to prepare spices and perfumed oils. But, of course, they rested on the sabbath according to the commandment. 24 On the first day of the week, however, they went very early to the tomb, bearing the spices they had prepared. 2 But they found the stone rolled away from the memorial tomb, 3 and when they entered they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. 4 While they were in perplexity over this, look! two men in flashing clothing stood by them. 5 As the [women] became frightened and kept their faces turned to the ground, the [men] said to them: "Why are YOU looking for the living One among the dead?

      (Luke 24:21-24) 21 But we were hoping that this [man] was the one destined to deliver Israel; yes, and besides all these things, this makes the third day since these things occurred. 22 Moreover, certain women from among us also astonished us, because they had been early to the memorial tomb 23 but did not find his body and they came saying they had also seen a supernatural sight of angels, who said he is alive. 24 Further, some of those with us went off to the memorial tomb; and they found it so, just as the women had said, but they did not see him."

      (Acts 10:40-41) 40 God raised this One up on the third day and granted him to become manifest, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God, to us, who ate and drank with him after his rising from the dead. . .

      Also Jesus did not ascend to heaven on the day he was resurrected but it was forty days later:

      (Acts 1:1-3) 1 The first account, O The·oph´i·lus, I composed about all the things Jesus started both to do and to teach, 2 until the day that he was taken up, after he had given commandment through holy spirit to the apostles whom he chose. 3 To these also by many positive proofs he showed himself alive after he had suffered, being seen by them throughout forty days and telling the things about the kingdom of God.

      Furthermore the criminal could not have been resurrected on the same day that Jesus was, or have ascended to heaven before Jesus:

      (1 Corinthians 15:20-23) 20 However, now Christ has been raised up from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep [in death]. 21 For since death is through a man, resurrection of the dead is also through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each one in his own rank: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence.

      If you read the entire chapter of 1 Corinthians chapter 15 you can see that the Apostle Paul was speaking of this resurrection as yet being future from the point in time when he was writing.

      I could also go into a discussion from the Bible about the fact that God created a Paradise on earth and it was his stated purpose for man to take care of it and cultivate it. There is nothing in the Bible that tells us that his purpose has changed. He still intends for the earth to be a paradise and for humans to live forever on the paradise earth to take care of it. This is where the criminal will live and Christ does not have to be on earth to be with him, but he will make him an earthly subject of his government which will rule from heaven. So the promise that Christ made on that day will be fulfilled.


      >
    • a_measured_brush
      Later Greek manuscripts did add the punctuation, but the earliest did not . Punctuation did not come into general use until the ninth century C.E. ,and by
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 20, 2007

        Later Greek manuscripts did add the punctuation, but the earliest did not . Punctuation did not come into general use until the ninth century C.E. ,and by that time Christendom had taken God's purpose for the earth out of it's theology. Even today the same is still true: you never hear about what God intends for Earth, and if you hear anything at all about the future of the earth they say it will be destroyed. As I mentioned before, it is the New World Translation, and a few other versions here, which is in harmony with other scriptures on this subject, and with the Bible as a whole. This rendering can easily be understood if you consider God's purpose and why he permits wickedness and suffering:

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JWquestions-and_answers/message/509

         

      • Steve Klemetti
        ... You said it yourself, that in the original Greek there is no punctuation. So what reason is there to place the coma before today ? The reason that we
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 20, 2007
          betsyrains wrote:
          > Hello.
          >
          > I have a sincere question.
          >
          > I am led to believe that the original Greek had no punctuation at
          > all. Yet, I notice that many Bibles place the comma in Luke 23:43 BEFORE the word 'today'. So I was wondering what the reasoning was for the the New World Translation to place the comma AFTER the word 'today'? The placement of the comma changes the meaning of the verse completely.
          >
          > Thank you in advance to any who respond to this question.
          >
          >
          You said it yourself, that in the original Greek there is no punctuation.

          So what reason is there to place the coma before 'today'?

          The reason that we place it after is that it does not change the verse.
          Change it from what? The wrong meaning
          to the right one? Placing it after agrees with the rest of the Bible in
          that the man was dead, not with Jesus in paradise that day.
        • A.J. Duff
          Ancient Greek was written in All capitols, and they didn t separate any words that would make that line if we re using Greek look like this
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 20, 2007
            Ancient Greek was written in All capitols, and they didn't separate any
            words

            that would make that line if we're using Greek look like this

            ANCIENTGREEKWASWRITTENINALLCAPITOLSANDTHEYDIDNTSEPARATEANYWORDS

            so as we have found that separating words makes for good sense, and
            punctuation too, there you go.

            Does that help answer any questions?
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "betsyrains" <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
            To: <JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2007 15:51
            Subject: [JWquestions-and_answers] NWT


            > Hello.
            >
            > I have a sincere question.
            >
            > I am led to believe that the original Greek had no punctuation at
            > all. Yet, I notice that many Bibles place the comma in Luke 23:43 BEFORE
            > the word 'today'. So I was wondering what the reasoning was for the the
            > New World Translation to place the comma AFTER the word 'today'? The
            > placement of the comma changes the meaning of the verse completely.
            >
            > Thank you in advance to any who respond to this question.
          • betsyrains
            Thank you very much, Another Paul, A Measured Brush & A.J. Duff. It is so clear, now that it was pointed out to me. For some dumb reason I didn t recall that
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 20, 2007
              Thank you very much, Another Paul, A Measured Brush & A.J. Duff.

              It is so clear, now that it was pointed out to me. For some dumb reason
              I didn't recall that Jesus was not resurrected until the third day!
              Like it was said, "The translator has to put in the punctuation that is
              in harmony with what the Bible says overall."

              Well done, Guys!


              --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, "a_measured_brush"
              <bambootiger@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > You are right; the Greek has no punctuation and so it is up to the
              > translator who translates into languages which do have punctuation to
              > put it in themselves, and in cases like this it does affect the
              meaning
              > of the passage where the punctuation is inserted. First of all the New
              > World translation is not the only one which words this in such a way
              > that Jesus is saying "I am telling you this day", and then leaves the
              > question open about when the man being executed alongside Christ would
              > be in paradise:
              >
              > (Rotherham) Luke 23:43 And he said unto him--Verily, I say unto thee
              > this day: With me, shalt thou be in Paradise.
              >
              > The translator has to put in the punctuation that is in harmony with
              > what the Bible says overall. Many people claim that the paradise that
              > Jesus spoke of was in heaven, but if that is true was Jesus himself in
              > heaven that same day? The Bible says that he was not resurrected until
              > the third day:
              >
              > (Matthew 20:17-19) 17 Being now about to go up to Jerusalem, Jesus
              took
              > the twelve disciples off privately and said to them on the road: 18
              > "Look! We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of man will be
              > delivered up to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn
              > him to death, 19 and will deliver him up to [men of] the nations to
              > make fun of and to scourge and to impale, and the third day he will be
              > raised up."
              >
              > (Matthew 27:62-64) 62 The next day, which was after the Preparation,
              > the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered together before Pilate,
              63
              > saying: "Sir, we have called to mind that that impostor said while yet
              > alive, `After three days I am to be raised up.' 64 Therefore
              > command the grave to be made secure until the third day, that his
              > disciples may never come and steal him and say to the people, `He
              > was raised up from the dead!' and this last imposture will be worse
              > than the first."
              >
              > (Luke 23:50-24:5) 50 And, look! a man named Joseph, who was a member
              of
              > the Council, a good and righteous man— 51 this [man] had not voted
              > in support of their design and action—he was from
              > Ar·i·ma·the´a, a city of the Ju·de´ans, and was
              > waiting for the kingdom of God; 52 this man went to Pilate and asked
              > for the body of Jesus. 53 And he took it down and wrapped it up in
              fine
              > linen, and he laid him in a tomb carved in the rock, in which no man
              > had yet lain. 54 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the evening
              > light of the sabbath was approaching. 55 But the women, who had come
              > with him out of Gal´i·lee, followed along and took a look at the
              > memorial tomb and how his body was laid; 56 and they went back to
              > prepare spices and perfumed oils. But, of course, they rested on the
              > sabbath according to the commandment. 24 On the first day of the week,
              > however, they went very early to the tomb, bearing the spices they had
              > prepared. 2 But they found the stone rolled away from the memorial
              > tomb, 3 and when they entered they did not find the body of the Lord
              > Jesus. 4 While they were in perplexity over this, look! two men in
              > flashing clothing stood by them. 5 As the [women] became frightened
              and
              > kept their faces turned to the ground, the [men] said to them: "Why
              are
              > YOU looking for the living One among the dead?
              >
              > (Luke 24:21-24) 21 But we were hoping that this [man] was the one
              > destined to deliver Israel; yes, and besides all these things, this
              > makes the third day since these things occurred. 22 Moreover, certain
              > women from among us also astonished us, because they had been early to
              > the memorial tomb 23 but did not find his body and they came saying
              > they had also seen a supernatural sight of angels, who said he is
              > alive. 24 Further, some of those with us went off to the memorial
              tomb;
              > and they found it so, just as the women had said, but they did not see
              > him."
              >
              > (Acts 10:40-41) 40 God raised this One up on the third day and granted
              > him to become manifest, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses
              > appointed beforehand by God, to us, who ate and drank with him after
              > his rising from the dead. . .
              >
              > Also Jesus did not ascend to heaven on the day he was resurrected but
              > it was forty days later:
              >
              > (Acts 1:1-3) 1 The first account, O The·oph´i·lus, I composed
              > about all the things Jesus started both to do and to teach, 2 until
              the
              > day that he was taken up, after he had given commandment through holy
              > spirit to the apostles whom he chose. 3 To these also by many positive
              > proofs he showed himself alive after he had suffered, being seen by
              > them throughout forty days and telling the things about the kingdom of
              > God.
              >
              > Furthermore the criminal could not have been resurrected on the same
              > day that Jesus was, or have ascended to heaven before Jesus:
              >
              > (1 Corinthians 15:20-23) 20 However, now Christ has been raised up
              from
              > the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep [in death].
              > 21 For since death is through a man, resurrection of the dead is also
              > through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the
              > Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each one in his own rank: Christ
              > the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his
              > presence.
              >
              > If you read the entire chapter of 1 Corinthians chapter 15 you can see
              > that the Apostle Paul was speaking of this resurrection as yet being
              > future from the point in time when he was writing.
              >
              >
              > I could also go into a discussion from the Bible about the fact that
              God
              > created a Paradise on earth and it was his stated purpose for man to
              > take care of it and cultivate it. There is nothing in the Bible that
              > tells us that his purpose has changed. He still intends for the earth
              > to be a paradise and for humans to live forever on the paradise earth
              to
              > take care of it. This is where the criminal will live and Christ does
              > not have to be on earth to be with him, but he will make him an
              earthly
              > subject of his government which will rule from heaven. So the promise
              > that Christ made on that day will be fulfilled.
              >
              > >
              >
            • moto_bl
              Unfortunately, and for whatever reasons, there are some who make many false claims concerning the New World Translation. The following link will take you to a
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 21, 2007

                Unfortunately, and for whatever reasons, there are some who make many false claims concerning the New World Translation.

                The following link will take you to a host of links that address many of these false claims and show why they do not have merit:

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JWquestions-and_answers/links/New_World_Translatio_001177111674/

                --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, Paul Leonard <anotherpaul2001@...> wrote:
                >
                > Look up this article if you have access to the WT CD or check out the local Kingdom Hall library. Let me know if you do not have access to the info at all.
                >
                > *** w71 4/15 p. 255 Questions From Readers ***
                >
                > Questions From Readers
                >
                > • At Luke 23:43, why does the New World Translation put the comma after the word "today"?—E. D., U.S.A.
                >
                > betsyrains no_reply@yahoogroups.com wrote: Hello.
                >
                > I have a sincere question.
                >
                > I am led to believe that the original Greek had no punctuation at
                > all. Yet, I notice that many Bibles place the comma in Luke 23:43 BEFORE the word 'today'. So I was wondering what the reasoning was for the the New World Translation to place the comma AFTER the word 'today'? The placement of the comma changes the meaning of the verse completely.
                >
                > Thank you in advance to any who respond to this question.
                >

              • rgwir
                in the king james it says in exodus 20:13 thou shalt not kill. but in the nwt is says you must not murder. why? ... of ...
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 22, 2007
                  in the king james it says in exodus 20:13 thou shalt not kill. but in
                  the nwt is says you must not murder.

                  why?
                  --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, moto_bl <no_reply@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Unfortunately, and for whatever reasons, there are some who make many
                  > false claims concerning the New World Translation.
                  >
                  > The following link will take you to a host of links that address many
                  of
                  > these false claims and show why they do not have merit:
                  >
                  >
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JWquestions-and_answers/links/New_World_Tr\
                  \
                  > anslatio_001177111674/
                  >
                  <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JWquestions-and_answers/links/New_World_T\
                  \
                  > ranslatio_001177111674/>
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, Paul Leonard
                  > anotherpaul2001@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Look up this article if you have access to the WT CD or check out
                  the
                  > local Kingdom Hall library. Let me know if you do not have access to
                  the
                  > info at all.
                  > >
                  > > *** w71 4/15 p. 255 Questions From Readers ***
                  > >
                  > > Questions From Readers
                  > >
                  > > • At Luke 23:43, why does the New World Translation put the
                  comma
                  > after the word "today"?—E. D., U.S.A.
                  > >
                  > > betsyrains no_reply@yahoogroups.com wrote: Hello.
                  > >
                  > > I have a sincere question.
                  > >
                  > > I am led to believe that the original Greek had no punctuation at
                  > > all. Yet, I notice that many Bibles place the comma in Luke 23:43
                  > BEFORE the word 'today'. So I was wondering what the reasoning was for
                  > the the New World Translation to place the comma AFTER the word
                  'today'?
                  > The placement of the comma changes the meaning of the verse
                  completely.
                  > >
                  > > Thank you in advance to any who respond to this question.
                  > >
                  >
                • a_measured_brush
                  The Bible does not contradict itself, but sometimes the King James version does. Murder is unlawfully killing someone, and therefore it is not describing the
                  Message 8 of 13 , Aug 22, 2007
                    The Bible does not contradict itself, but sometimes the King James
                    version does. Murder is unlawfully killing someone, and therefore it is
                    not describing the lawful execution of criminals, or warfare which is
                    ordained By God. The Mosaic law forbade murder, but it also listed
                    crimes for which people were to be put to death, and rules for warfare
                    ordained by God.
                  • candice strauss
                    kill & murder are the same. if you kill someone, then you murder someone. Either way they end up dead, non-existent. rgwir wrote: in
                    Message 9 of 13 , Aug 22, 2007
                      kill & murder are the same. if you kill someone, then you murder someone. Either way they end up dead, non-existent.

                      rgwir <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                      in the king james it says in exodus 20:13 thou shalt not kill. but in
                      the nwt is says you must not murder.

                      why?
                      --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, moto_bl <no_reply@.. .>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Unfortunately, and for whatever reasons, there are some who make many
                      > false claims concerning the New World Translation.
                      >
                      > The following link will take you to a host of links that address many
                      of
                      > these false claims and show why they do not have merit:
                      >
                      >
                      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/JWquestion s-and_answers/ links/New_ World_Tr\
                      \
                      > anslatio_0011771116 74/
                      >
                      <http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/JWquestion s-and_answers/ links/New_ World_T\
                      \
                      > ranslatio_001177111 674/>
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Leonard
                      > anotherpaul2001@ wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Look up this article if you have access to the WT CD or check out
                      the
                      > local Kingdom Hall library. Let me know if you do not have access to
                      the
                      > info at all.
                      > >
                      > > *** w71 4/15 p. 255 Questions From Readers ***
                      > >
                      > > Questions From Readers
                      > >
                      > > • At Luke 23:43, why does the New World Translation put the
                      comma
                      > after the word "today"?—E. D., U.S.A.
                      > >
                      > > betsyrains no_reply@yahoogroup s.com wrote: Hello.
                      > >
                      > > I have a sincere question.
                      > >
                      > > I am led to believe that the original Greek had no punctuation at
                      > > all. Yet, I notice that many Bibles place the comma in Luke 23:43
                      > BEFORE the word 'today'. So I was wondering what the reasoning was for
                      > the the New World Translation to place the comma AFTER the word
                      'today'?
                      > The placement of the comma changes the meaning of the verse
                      completely.
                      > >
                      > > Thank you in advance to any who respond to this question.
                    • tik_of_totg
                      If one were to take the command extremely literally and never kill , then the mere inadvertant action of stepping on a bug would have violated the
                      Message 10 of 13 , Aug 22, 2007

                           If one were to take the command extremely literally and never "kill", then the mere inadvertant action of stepping on a bug would have violated the commandment. One "kills" microscopic life just by brushing their teeth or by even breathing. To eat and survive, plant or animal life must be "killed" in the process.

                           The Hebrew word in question (ra·tsach´) is variously rendered "kill," "murder," and "slay" depending on the context or other scriptures that determine whether the deliberate and unauthorized or unlawful taking of another person's life is involved.

                           At Ex. 20:13, it clearly refers to deliberate and unlawful killing and so the New World Translation correctly renders it as "murder".


                        --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, rgwir <no_reply@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > in the king james it says in exodus 20:13 thou shalt not kill. but in
                        > the nwt is says you must not murder.

                      • A.J. Duff
                        If that is the case all persons who aren t vegetarians are murderers. State Executioners would then be murderers, and after they perform executions that are
                        Message 11 of 13 , Aug 23, 2007
                          If that is the case all persons who aren't vegetarians are murderers.
                           
                          State Executioners would then be murderers, and after they perform executions that are legally binding and allowed By Jehovah (under CÆSAR's Law).
                           
                          In fact under the mosaic law, That would make Moses, every soldier, Even Priest Phineas all murderers
                           
                          The Angel that AT God's direction protected the nation of Israel and Killed 100,000 Assyrians
                           
                          I'm assuming we all believe that God has his reasons, and are believers in the True and literal word of the bible here now. I'm making that assumption
                           
                           
                          That being the case, God told us to Not murder, but many instances where for either self defense, Defense of the people of Israel from outside groups, or the Defense of the moral purity of Jehovah's chosen people the capitol form of punishment and tools such as war, were used reaching those goals
                           
                          None of them are Murders, they were killing lawfully
                           
                          and Since that book in the old Hebrew testament said that as the soul of the man dies so does the beast.  Then we'd all have to become vegetarians because animals do have souls, and if we eat them then we're taking part in their killing which as they have souls if all killing of men is murder, then killing of animals who possess sentience, a type of intelligence (except for cows) and have souls according to ecclesiasties.
                           
                          So we're all giving up food, we're all allowing ourselves to be killed by assailants rather then exercise the legal and divine right of self defense, what else?
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 20:32
                          Subject: Re: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: NWT

                          kill & murder are the same. if you kill someone, then you murder someone. Either way they end up dead, non-existent.

                          rgwir <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                          in the king james it says in exodus 20:13 thou shalt not kill. but in
                          the nwt is says you must not murder.

                          why?
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