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Re: Ezekiel 3:17-21

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  • cort24ss
    All these verses are talking about those who do not give warning and those who do give the warning can be blood guilty or not. Those who do not give the
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 1, 2012
      All these verses are talking about those who do not give warning and those who do give the warning can be blood guilty or not. Those who do not give the warning will become blood guilty and both will die.  Those who do the warning will not become blood guilty and not die, but the one who is given the warning will have to answer for their own choice to listen or not.
      WT 1981 2/1 pp. 22-23 par. 10 The Time for a Watchman like Ezekiel
      10 Very plainly, the position of a watchman is a highly responsible one. In wartime, if a soldier goes to sleep at his sentry post he is put to death, because the lives of others were put at stake with also the risk of suffering defeat. (Judg. 7:19) So God is concerned, not only about the lives of those needing to be warned, but also about the life of his watchman. This is shown in his further words to Ezekiel: "But as for you, in case you have warned someone wicked and he does not actually turn back from his wickedness and from his wicked way, he himself for his error will die; but as for you, you will have delivered your own soul. And when someone righteous turns back from his righteousness and actually does injustice and I must put a stumbling block before him, he himself will die because you did not warn him. For his sin he will die, and his righteous acts that he did will not be remembered, but his blood I shall ask back from your own hand. And as for you, in case you have warned someone righteous that the righteous one should not sin, and he himself does not actually sin, he will without fail keep on living because he had been warned, and you yourself will have delivered your own soul."—Ezek. 3:19-21; 33:2-9.



      --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, "ajseekingthetruth@..." <ajseekingthetruth@...> wrote:
      >
      > Would someone explain Ezekiel 3:17-21? Especially the meaning of verse 20,
      > but his blood I shall ask back from your own hand"?
      >
      >
      > AJ
      >
    • Laurence Taylor
      In message ... Basically God is telling Ezekiel that if people are sinning and should be warned about the consequences, but
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 4, 2012
        In message <4F78A10F.000051.03156@OWNER-PC>
        "ajseekingthetruth@..." writes:

        > Would someone explain Ezekiel 3:17-21? Especially the meaning of verse 20,=
        > but his blood I shall ask back from your own hand"?=0D


        Basically God is telling Ezekiel that if people are sinning and
        should be warned about the consequences, but Ezekiel doesn't warn
        them, then it's his fault. If he does warn them, but they sin
        anyway, then he's in the clear because he's done his bit.

        Verse 20, although phrased strangely, is just amplifying the
        point; even if God tempts the people, it is is still their fault
        if they sin, they will still be punished, and still Ezekiel's
        fault if he didn't warn them so he will be punished too. If he did
        warn them, however, he's still in the clear.

        rgds
        LAurence
        <><
        ... Distance lends enchantment to the view..T.Campbell
        ~~~ Tag-O-Matic V.13F
      • John
        The implication here is that God will (brutally) punish them. I still have difficulty with this idea if it really comes from a benevolent God. Another way of
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 5, 2012
          The implication here is that God will (brutally) punish them. I still have difficulty with this idea if it really comes from a benevolent God.

          Another way of looking at it from modern parenting ideas is to explain to children that if they do certain things (eg run in the road without looking for traffic, or hang out with infectious people) then the results will be injury and ill health.

          In terms of "God's Creation" certain admonitions are like an instruction manual for its use. With something like an automobile, you are told to keep the windows clean, or otherwise you will miss something and have an accident.

          Maybe I am still not getting it, but a benevolent God acting like a brutal father beating his children into obedience doesn't work for me.

          --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, Laurence Taylor <lozt@...> wrote:
          >
          <del>
          > Verse 20, although phrased strangely, is just amplifying the
          > point; even if God tempts the people, it is is still their fault
          > if they sin, they will still be punished, and still Ezekiel's
          > fault if he didn't warn them so he will be punished too. If he did
          > warn them, however, he's still in the clear.
          >
        • Laurence Taylor
          ... still have difficulty with this idea if it really comes from a benevolent God. (...) ... like a brutal father beating his children into obedience doesn t
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 11, 2012
            In message <jlk0pm+2fgi@...> "John" writes:

            > The implication here is that God will (brutally) punish them. I
            still have difficulty with this idea if it really comes
            from a benevolent God.
            (...)
            > Maybe I am still not getting it, but a benevolent God acting
            like a brutal father beating his children into obedience
            doesn't work for me.

            I'm sorry this has taken so long to respond, I wanted to have a
            good think about it before I put pen^H^H^H finger to keyboard.

            Having thunk, and read a lot, I'm not a huge amount wiser, but as
            I think I understand it, the brutal punishments were usually as a
            last resort because any form of reasoning had failed and mass
            elimination was the only way to effect any change. Remember that
            punishment is only meted out to those who deliberately re-offend;
            repentance brings forgiveness.

            Also don't forget the possibility of journalistic hyperbole on the
            part of the writers.

            Also also, don't forget that the early times when such things as
            mass punishment occurred were when the population was relatively
            small and correct behaviour was that much more important for the
            continuation of the race. After Jesus came on the scene,
            everything changed and such retribution is no longer performed or
            needed.

            (Off Topic question, John: did you used to write for Practical
            Television?)

            rgds
            LAurence
            <><
            ... If you're getting run out of town, get in front of the crowd and make
            ... it look like a parade.
            ~~~ Tag-O-Matic V.13F
          • cort24ss
            I do not understand why you want to think Jehovah a brutally father, just because you fail to understand Jehovah mind of justices. What you seem to fail to
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 13, 2012
              I do not understand why you want to think Jehovah a brutally father, just because you fail to understand Jehovah mind of justices.  What you seem to fail to understand that the Watchmen class of people have been assign duties to fulfill.  It is a life saving assignment and they know what they have to do before it need to be done.  First you seem to forget that the ones who not sound the warning is disobeying Jehovah, also  causing the death of those who they did not warn and may have change their wicked ways if they were given that warning.   Adam and Eve were told what would  happen if they disobey and  they chose to follow Satan anyway.  
              See, Jehovah is telling the Watchmen class what going to happen if they disobey this lifesaving work.  If they do what Jehovah asked them to  do then they will gain life and the wicked one who listen will also gain their life.  If they chose to disobey then they lose their life and the wicked one lose their life for not changing their wicked way.

              Read the account of Jonah, a warning was to be giving  to the  Nineveh. To the northeast was Assyria, with its capital, Nineveh, about which Nahum wrote: "Woe to the city of bloodshed. She is all full of deception and of robbery. Prey does not depart!" (Nahum 3:1) The Assyrians were known for aggressive warfare and cruelty to prisoners of war—some prisoners were burned or skinned alive, and others were blinded or had their nose, ears, or fingers cut off. The book Gods, Graves, and Scholars says: "Nineveh was impressed on the consciousness of mankind by little else than murder, plunder, suppression, and the violation of the weak; by war and all manner of physical violence.
              But they did repented and so Jehovah put off their punishment for another time when they return to their wicked ways .   At the time of the end as when the final judgement come we are either for Jehovah and his Kingdom or we are against Jehovah and his Kingdom.  
               

                  

              --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, Laurence Taylor <lozt@...> wrote:
              >
              > In message <jlk0pm+2fgi@... "John" writes:
              >
              > > The implication here is that God will (brutally) punish them. I
              > still have difficulty with this idea if it really comes
              > from a benevolent God.
              > (...)
              > > Maybe I am still not getting it, but a benevolent God acting
              > like a brutal father beating his children into obedience
              > doesn't work for me.
              >
              > I'm sorry this has taken so long to respond, I wanted to have a
              > good think about it before I put pen^H^H^H finger to keyboard.
              >
              > Having thunk, and read a lot, I'm not a huge amount wiser, but as
              > I think I understand it, the brutal punishments were usually as a
              > last resort because any form of reasoning had failed and mass
              > elimination was the only way to effect any change. Remember that
              > punishment is only meted out to those who deliberately re-offend;
              > repentance brings forgiveness.
              >
              > Also don't forget the possibility of journalistic hyperbole on the
              > part of the writers.
              >
              > Also also, don't forget that the early times when such things as
              > mass punishment occurred were when the population was relatively
              > small and correct behaviour was that much more important for the
              > continuation of the race. After Jesus came on the scene,
              > everything changed and such retribution is no longer performed or
              > needed.
              >
              > (Off Topic question, John: did you used to write for Practical
              > Television?)
              >
              > rgds
              > LAurence
              > <><
              > ... If you're getting run out of town, get in front of the crowd and make
              > ... it look like a parade.
              > ~~~ Tag-O-Matic V.13F
              >
            • Debilyn McPhate
              I would invite us all to remember to answer, and share your own experiences in a loving way. Not using the word you is one point that will not turn people
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 13, 2012
                I would invite us all to remember to answer, and share "your own" experiences in a loving way. Not using the word you is one point that will not turn people from wanting to listen.
                 
                It's always best to make point to the issue. Then there are no hurt feelings. I do my best to  be tender as Jesus was,even when sharing things that we ourselves have come to believe as truth.
                 
                Myself would doubt anyone would "want" to believe Jehovah uses brutality.
                 
                We are to share the message. It is up to each of us to make our own decision.
                 
                For example stick to what you believe to be true, "My understanding is, I feel it is this way etc.
                 
                This all may be true information but for me I found it harsh, judgemental and would not want to cause bloodguilt by how I approach a subject.
                 
                I sincerely respect your beliefs and what you shared however as far as about our Father.
                 
                Also I want to say we are mere goldfish when it comes to Jehovah. He does not think like us, his wiseness is far beyond what we can comprehend. There is a reason he says vengence is his.
                 
                I picture myself creating humans, I love them and ones that come to really know me, treat me as their Father,follow my wishes the best they can. Then there are others who do not love me, bring pain and death to my loving people. Then I take it upon myself to love them enough to give them many chances to repent. Yet it is THEIR choice when they choose not to follow me.
                Vengence is mine, as I am the creator, as the Bible says, hurting his followers his children is like touching his eyeball. I surely can imagine accepting the unrepentant ones choice to die and not be forgiven.
                 
                All I know is I want to be the best child of Jehovah I can be in every part of my life. Work hard at following Jesus example.
                 
                As much as Jehovah takes care of the evil ones , on the other side he loved us sooo very much he gave his son for us!
                 
                I am too much nothing, too humble to question his ways. I know I trust him 100% as he is who created me.
                 
                much love,debilyn
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: cort24ss
                Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 6:07 PM
                Subject: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Ezekiel 3:17-21

                 

                I do not understand why you want to think Jehovah a brutally father, just because you fail to understand Jehovah mind of justices.  What you seem to fail to understand that the Watchmen class of people have been assign duties to fulfill.  It is a life saving assignment and they know what they have to do before it need to be done.  First you seem to forget that the ones who not sound the warning is disobeying Jehovah, also  causing the death of those who they did not warn and may have change their wicked ways if they were given that warning.   Adam and Eve were told what would  happen if they disobey and  they chose to follow Satan anyway.  
                See, Jehovah is telling the Watchmen class what going to happen if they disobey this lifesaving work.  If they do what Jehovah asked them to  do then they will gain life and the wicked one who listen will also gain their life.  If they chose to disobey then they lose their life and the wicked one lose their life for not changing their wicked way.

                Read the account of Jonah, a warning was to be giving  to the  Nineveh. To the northeast was Assyria, with its capital, Nineveh, about which Nahum wrote: "Woe to the city of bloodshed. She is all full of deception and of robbery. Prey does not depart!" (Nahum 3:1) The Assyrians were known for aggressive warfare and cruelty to prisoners of war—some prisoners were burned or skinned alive, and others were blinded or had their nose, ears, or fingers cut off. The book Gods, Graves, and Scholars says: "Nineveh was impressed on the consciousness of mankind by little else than murder, plunder, suppression, and the violation of the weak; by war and all manner of physical violence.
                But they did repented and so Jehovah put off their punishment for another time when they return to their wicked ways .   At the time of the end as when the final judgement come we are either for Jehovah and his Kingdom or we are against Jehovah and his Kingdom.  
                 

                    

                --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, Laurence Taylor <lozt@...> wrote:
                >
                > In message <jlk0pm+2fgi@... "John" writes:
                >
                > > The implication here is that God will (brutally) punish them. I
                > still have difficulty with this idea if it really comes
                > from a benevolent God.
                > (...)
                > > Maybe I am still not getting it, but a benevolent God acting
                > like a brutal father beating his children into obedience
                > doesn't work for me.
                >
                > I'm sorry this has taken so long to respond, I wanted to have a
                > good think about it before I put pen^H^H^H finger to keyboard.
                >
                > Having thunk, and read a lot, I'm not a huge amount wiser, but as
                > I think I understand it, the brutal punishments were usually as a
                > last resort because any form of reasoning had failed and mass
                > elimination was the only way to effect any change. Remember that
                > punishment is only meted out to those who deliberately re-offend;
                > repentance brings forgiveness.
                >
                > Also don't forget the possibility of journalistic hyperbole on the
                > part of the writers.
                >
                > Also also, don't forget that the early times when such things as
                > mass punishment occurred were when the population was relatively
                > small and correct behaviour was that much more important for the
                > continuation of the race. After Jesus came on the scene,
                > everything changed and such retribution is no longer performed or
                > needed.
                >
                > (Off Topic question, John: did you used to write for Practical
                > Television?)
                >
                > rgds
                > LAurence
                > <><
                > ... If you're getting run out of town, get in front of the crowd and make
                > ... it look like a parade.
                > ~~~ Tag-O-Matic V.13F
                >

              • bgnewname
                To address this question I have found in the Watchtower of the February 1, 1981 The Time for a Watchman like Ezekiel. page 20 to page 27. inwhich Lovers of
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 13, 2012
                  To address this question I have found in the Watchtower of the February 1, 1981 "The Time for a Watchman like Ezekiel." page 20 to page 27. inwhich "Lovers of God resolve for more than a 100 years have been serving warning notice that this world or system of things cannot last.
                  And in the Jan.1,2000 Watchtower we have pointed out the words of Isaiah 60:22 "The Little One" Has become "A Thousand." and "Serving with The Watchman."

                  The faithful and discreet slave class that Jehovah has appointed as His Watchman do take Ezek.3:19-21 and 33:2-9 very seriously as they do not want to be like Christendom; And I feel we as thier helpers and companions are doing so.

                  For the most part, I am thinking of the sheep and the goats and this in view of what will become of each and why. We who are of the great crowd are only fellow workers of and with The Watchman of Ezekiels words to them.

                  BG

                  --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, "cort24ss" <corfam24@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I do not understand why you want to think Jehovah a brutally father,
                  > just because you fail to understand Jehovah mind of justices. What you
                  > seem to fail to understand that the Watchmen class of people have been
                  > assign duties to fulfill. It is a life saving assignment and they know
                  > what they have to do before it need to be done. First you seem to
                  > forget that the ones who not sound the warning is disobeying Jehovah,
                  > also causing the death of those who they did not warn and may have
                  > change their wicked ways if they were given that warning. Adam and Eve
                  > were told what would happen if they disobey and they chose to follow
                  > Satan anyway.
                  > See, Jehovah is telling the Watchmen class what going to happen if they
                  > disobey this lifesaving work. If they do what Jehovah asked them to do
                  > then they will gain life and the wicked one who listen will also gain
                  > their life. If they chose to disobey then they lose their life and the
                  > wicked one lose their life for not changing their wicked way.
                  >
                  > Read the account of Jonah, a warning was to be giving to the Nineveh.
                  > To the northeast was Assyria, with its capital, Nineveh, about which
                  > Nahum wrote: "Woe to the city of bloodshed. She is all full of
                  > deception and of robbery. Prey does not depart!" (Nahum 3:1) The
                  > Assyrians were known for aggressive warfare and cruelty to prisoners of
                  > war—some prisoners were burned or skinned alive, and others were
                  > blinded or had their nose, ears, or fingers cut off. The book Gods,
                  > Graves, and Scholars says: "Nineveh was impressed on the
                  > consciousness of mankind by little else than murder, plunder,
                  > suppression, and the violation of the weak; by war and all manner of
                  > physical violence.
                  > But they did repented and so Jehovah put off their punishment for
                  > another time when they return to their wicked ways . At the time of
                  > the end as when the final judgement come we are either for Jehovah and
                  > his Kingdom or we are against Jehovah and his Kingdom.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, Laurence Taylor
                  > <lozt@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > In message <jlk0pm+2fgi@ "John" writes:
                  > >
                  > > > The implication here is that God will (brutally) punish them. I
                  > > still have difficulty with this idea if it really comes
                  > > from a benevolent God.
                  > > (...)
                  > > > Maybe I am still not getting it, but a benevolent God acting
                  > > like a brutal father beating his children into obedience
                  > > doesn't work for me.
                  > >
                  > > I'm sorry this has taken so long to respond, I wanted to have a
                  > > good think about it before I put pen^H^H^H finger to keyboard.
                  > >
                  > > Having thunk, and read a lot, I'm not a huge amount wiser, but as
                  > > I think I understand it, the brutal punishments were usually as a
                  > > last resort because any form of reasoning had failed and mass
                  > > elimination was the only way to effect any change. Remember that
                  > > punishment is only meted out to those who deliberately re-offend;
                  > > repentance brings forgiveness.
                  > >
                  > > Also don't forget the possibility of journalistic hyperbole on the
                  > > part of the writers.
                  > >
                  > > Also also, don't forget that the early times when such things as
                  > > mass punishment occurred were when the population was relatively
                  > > small and correct behaviour was that much more important for the
                  > > continuation of the race. After Jesus came on the scene,
                  > > everything changed and such retribution is no longer performed or
                  > > needed.
                  > >
                  > > (Off Topic question, John: did you used to write for Practical
                  > > Television?)
                  > >
                  > > rgds
                  > > LAurence
                  > > <><
                  > > ... If you're getting run out of town, get in front of the crowd and
                  > make
                  > > ... it look like a parade.
                  > > ~~~ Tag-O-Matic V.13F
                  > >
                  >
                • John
                  Thanks for that. I am actually on this list in an attempt to understand a friend who has joined the JW a few years ago, rather than as an ardent believer in
                  Message 8 of 9 , Apr 14, 2012
                    Thanks for that.

                    I am actually on this list in an attempt to understand a friend who has joined the JW a few years ago, rather than as an ardent believer in anything beyond evidence based observation. Also I try to understand what Biblical students make of various criticisms made against The Bible by other writers, the "petalant character called 'god'" idea being one of them. Usually such criticisms pass unnanswered as books give just one side of an argument or hypothesis.

                    I also seem to remember reading somewhere that JWs beleive that The Bible is the actual Word of Jehovah, not just journalistic reports of what some people though may have been "acts of god". Of course this could be wrong, and further comments would be of interest.

                    Yes, I did write for (Practical) Television, on modifying early Philips VCRs to play for longer. Now you can get a complete recording system for the price of just two of the cassettes used on these machines, physically a lot smaller than just one of them.

                    --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, Laurence Taylor <lozt@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > In message <jlk0pm+2fgi@...> "John" writes:
                    >
                    > > The implication here is that God will (brutally) punish them. I
                    > still have difficulty with this idea if it really comes
                    > from a benevolent God.
                    > (...)
                    > > Maybe I am still not getting it, but a benevolent God acting
                    > like a brutal father beating his children into obedience
                    > doesn't work for me.
                    >
                    > I'm sorry this has taken so long to respond, I wanted to have a
                    > good think about it before I put pen^H^H^H finger to keyboard.
                    >
                    > Having thunk, and read a lot, I'm not a huge amount wiser, but as
                    > I think I understand it, the brutal punishments were usually as a
                    > last resort because any form of reasoning had failed and mass
                    > elimination was the only way to effect any change. Remember that
                    > punishment is only meted out to those who deliberately re-offend;
                    > repentance brings forgiveness.
                    >
                    > Also don't forget the possibility of journalistic hyperbole on the
                    > part of the writers.
                    >
                    > Also also, don't forget that the early times when such things as
                    > mass punishment occurred were when the population was relatively
                    > small and correct behaviour was that much more important for the
                    > continuation of the race. After Jesus came on the scene,
                    > everything changed and such retribution is no longer performed or
                    > needed.
                    >
                    > (Off Topic question, John: did you used to write for Practical
                    > Television?)
                    >
                    > rgds
                    > LAurence
                    > <><
                    > ... If you're getting run out of town, get in front of the crowd and make
                    > ... it look like a parade.
                    > ~~~ Tag-O-Matic V.13F
                    >
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