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Re: Group Statement and Rules of Discussion

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  • moto_bl
    Hi Gloria. You reiterated the importance of examining Rev. 14:10, 11. No one here would dispute that this is an inspired Scriptural passage. However, TJ
    Message 1 of 16 , Dec 7, 2010

      Hi Gloria.

      You reiterated the importance of examining Rev. 14:10, 11. No one here would dispute that this is an inspired Scriptural passage.  However, TJ correctly pointed out that the book of Revelation is a book full of symbols and that Rev. 14:10, 11 is full of figurative (not literal) language. So when the rest of the Bible clearly shows how when someone dies, they are not conscious of anything (Ps. 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5) and that the condition of the dead is one of inactivity - likened to a deep sleep (Ps. 13:3; John 11:11-14; Acts 7:60; 1 Cor. 7:39; 15:51; 1 Thess. 4:13), it would seem reasonable to conclude that what was written at Rev. 14:10, 11 is indeed phrased in figurative or symbolic terms.

      Below is an excerpt from the WBTS publication Revelation - It's Grand Climax at Hand. It provides an excellent examination of these scriptures in a way that exceeds my attempt at paraphrasing:

      "Speaking of the worshiper of the wild beast and its image, the angel informs John: "And he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest, those who worship the wild beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."—Revelation 14:10b, 11.

      "Some have viewed the mention here of fire and sulfur ("fire and brimstone," King James Version) as a proof of the existence of a hellfire. But a brief look at a similar prophecy shows the real import of these words in this context. Back in the days of Isaiah, Jehovah warned the nation of Edom that they would be punished because of their enmity toward Israel. He said: "Her torrents must be changed into pitch, and her dust into sulphur, and her land must become as burning pitch. By night or by day it will not be extinguished; to time indefinite its smoke will keep ascending. From generation to generation she will be parched; forever and ever no one will be passing across her."—Isaiah 34:9, 10.

      "Was Edom hurled into some mythical hellfire to burn forever? Of course not. Rather, the nation completely disappeared from the world scene as if she had been totally consumed with fire and sulfur. The final result of the punishment was not everlasting torment but "emptiness . . . wasteness . . . nothing." (Isaiah 34:11, 12) The smoke `ascending to time indefinite' vividly illustrates this. When a house burns down, smoke keeps coming from the ashes for some time after the flames have died down, providing onlookers with evidence that there has been a destructive conflagration. Even today God's people remember the lesson to be learned from the destruction of Edom. In this way `the smoke of her burning' is still ascending in a symbolic way.

      "Those who have the mark of the wild beast will also be destroyed completely, as if by fire. As the prophecy later reveals, their dead bodies will be left unburied for animals and birds to eat. (Revelation 19:17, 18) So, clearly, they are not being literally tortured forever! How are they "tormented with fire and sulphur"? In that the proclamation of truth exposes them and warns them of God's coming judgment. Therefore they vilify God's people and, where possible, slyly persuade the political wild beast to persecute and even kill Jehovah's Witnesses. As a climax, these opposers will be destroyed as with fire and brimstone. Then "the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" in that God's judgment of them will serve as a touchstone if ever again Jehovah's rightful sovereignty is challenged. That issue will have been settled for all eternity." - Revelation - It's Grand Climax at Hand, Chapter 30 "Babylon the Great Has Fallen!", par. 14-17


       

       

      --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, "TJ" <t35josiah@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello Gloria,
      >
      > How about Ecclesiastes 9:5, which says, "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all."
      >
      > The dead cannot be alive in hell because they are DEAD, the very opposite of alive. No consciousness, no awareness, they simply cease to exist. That is something a God of love would do with those who refuse to practice righteousness. Not torture them forever.
      >
      > Fire symbolizes DESTRUCTION. The book of Revelation is a book full of SYMBOLS. It isn't literal, as the verses you quote are full of figurative languange, are they not?
      >
      >
      > TJ
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, Gloria seppie925@ wrote:
      > >
      > > Everyone needs to read these verses....Mat. 25
      > >
      > > 40 And in reply the king will say to them, ‘Truly I say to YOU, To the extent
      > > that YOU did it to one of the least of these my brothers, YOU did it to me.’ 41
      > > “Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, ‘Be on YOUR way from me, YOU
      > > who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his
      > > angels. 42
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > rev. 14 vs9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone
      > > worships the wild beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead or
      > > upon his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is
      > > poured out undiluted into the cup of his wrath, and he shall be tormented with
      > > fire and sulphur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb.
      > > 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night
      > > they have no rest, those who worship the wild beast and its image, and whoever
      > > receives the mark of its name. 12 Here is where it means endurance for the holy
      > > ones, those who observe the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.”
      > >
      > > Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the life !!
      >

    • Janice Huskey
      Hi, I have been following these posts.I do not believe that hell is a hot place where people burn forever.I have shown the scriptuer in Eccl. to people,what I
      Message 2 of 16 , Dec 7, 2010
        Hi, I have been following these posts.I do not believe that hell is a hot place where people burn forever.I have shown the scriptuer in Eccl. to people,what I get thrown back at me is its not the body,but the soul that burns forever,I may be wrong in saying this,but the bible says [the soul that is sinning will die] it does not say the soul will burn in hell forever,also it says ALL have sinned,& fall short of the glory of God,that sounds to me as if the soul dies along with the body,please correct me if i,m wrong.I can,t post the scriptures the way youall do,but i,m sure you know the ones i,m talking about.I do know the book of Rev. says at the beginning that John wrote in signs,& symbols,& I can see that fire would be a good sign of complete destruction,i have a fireplace,& in winter i burn lots of my trash in it,but it does not burn forever,also the bible says that Jesus taught a lot in signs,& symbols,people throw the rich man,& Lazzarath at me to prove that hell is hot,but i have read that passage over,& over,& come to the conclussion that it is a symbol of something that is not to be taken literly again please correct me if I am wrong..Thanks  Janis


        From: moto_bl <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
        To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tue, December 7, 2010 11:47:34 AM
        Subject: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Group Statement and Rules of Discussion

         

        Hi Gloria.

        You reiterated the importance of examining Rev. 14:10, 11. No one here would dispute that this is an inspired Scriptural passage.  However, TJ correctly pointed out that the book of Revelation is a book full of symbols and that Rev. 14:10, 11 is full of figurative (not literal) language. So when the rest of the Bible clearly shows how when someone dies, they are not conscious of anything (Ps. 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5) and that the condition of the dead is one of inactivity - likened to a deep sleep (Ps. 13:3; John 11:11-14; Acts 7:60; 1 Cor. 7:39; 15:51; 1 Thess. 4:13), it would seem reasonable to conclude that what was written at Rev. 14:10, 11 is indeed phrased in figurative or symbolic terms.

        Below is an excerpt from the WBTS publication Revelation - It's Grand Climax at Hand. It provides an excellent examination of these scriptures in a way that exceeds my attempt at paraphrasing:

        "Speaking of the worshiper of the wild beast and its image, the angel informs John: "And he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest, those who worship the wild beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."—Revelation 14:10b, 11.

        "Some have viewed the mention here of fire and sulfur ("fire and brimstone," King James Version) as a proof of the existence of a hellfire. But a brief look at a similar prophecy shows the real import of these words in this context. Back in the days of Isaiah, Jehovah warned the nation of Edom that they would be punished because of their enmity toward Israel. He said: "Her torrents must be changed into pitch, and her dust into sulphur, and her land must become as burning pitch. By night or by day it will not be extinguished; to time indefinite its smoke will keep ascending. From generation to generation she will be parched; forever and ever no one will be passing across her."—Isaiah 34:9, 10.

        "Was Edom hurled into some mythical hellfire to burn forever? Of course not. Rather, the nation completely disappeared from the world scene as if she had been totally consumed with fire and sulfur. The final result of the punishment was not everlasting torment but "emptiness . . . wasteness . . . nothing." (Isaiah 34:11, 12) The smoke `ascending to time indefinite' vividly illustrates this. When a house burns down, smoke keeps coming from the ashes for some time after the flames have died down, providing onlookers with evidence that there has been a destructive conflagration. Even today God's people remember the lesson to be learned from the destruction of Edom. In this way `the smoke of her burning' is still ascending in a symbolic way.

        "Those who have the mark of the wild beast will also be destroyed completely, as if by fire. As the prophecy later reveals, their dead bodies will be left unburied for animals and birds to eat. (Revelation 19:17, 18) So, clearly, they are not being literally tortured forever! How are they "tormented with fire and sulphur"? In that the proclamation of truth exposes them and warns them of God's coming judgment. Therefore they vilify God's people and, where possible, slyly persuade the political wild beast to persecute and even kill Jehovah's Witnesses. As a climax, these opposers will be destroyed as with fire and brimstone. Then "the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" in that God's judgment of them will serve as a touchstone if ever again Jehovah's rightful sovereignty is challenged. That issue will have been settled for all eternity." - Revelation - It's Grand Climax at Hand, Chapter 30 "Babylon the Great Has Fallen!", par. 14-17


         

         

        --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, "TJ" <t35josiah@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello Gloria,
        >
        > How about Ecclesiastes 9:5, which says, "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all."
        >
        > The dead cannot be alive in hell because they are DEAD, the very opposite of alive. No consciousness, no awareness, they simply cease to exist. That is something a God of love would do with those who refuse to practice righteousness. Not torture them forever.
        >
        > Fire symbolizes DESTRUCTION. The book of Revelation is a book full of SYMBOLS. It isn't literal, as the verses you quote are full of figurative languange, are they not?
        >
        >
        > TJ
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, Gloria seppie925@ wrote:
        > >
        > > Everyone needs to read these verses....Mat. 25
        > >
        > > 40 And in reply the king will say to them, ‘Truly I say to YOU, To the extent
        > > that YOU did it to one of the least of these my brothers, YOU did it to me.’ 41
        > > “Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, ‘Be on YOUR way from me, YOU
        > > who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his
        > > angels. 42
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > rev. 14 vs9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone
        > > worships the wild beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead or
        > > upon his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is
        > > poured out undiluted into the cup of his wrath, and he shall be tormented with
        > > fire and sulphur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb.
        > > 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night
        > > they have no rest, those who worship the wild beast and its image, and whoever
        > > receives the mark of its name. 12 Here is where it means endurance for the holy
        > > ones, those who observe the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.�
        > >
        > > Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the life !!
        >

        Hi, I

      • vicwarren711
        The hell fire doctrine goes against the four cardinal qualities of Jehovah namely: Love Justice Power Wisdom Love would a loving God eternally torture persons
        Message 3 of 16 , Dec 8, 2010
          The hell fire doctrine goes against the four cardinal qualities of Jehovah namely: Love
                                                                                                                                           Justice
                                                                                                                                           Power
                                                                                                                                           Wisdom
          Love would a loving God eternally torture persons clearly not.

          Justice does the punishment fit the crime clearly not

          Power Hell fire would be an abuse of power it would go against the other cardinal qualities of Jehovah

          Wisdom showed that the penalty for sin is death NOT eternal Hellfire

          Your bro. Vic

          On 12/07/2010 01:24 PM, Janice Huskey wrote:
           
          Thank you very much for the site to the book i have read lots in it & will continue to do so also thanks for the scripture in Jeremiah its a good one to show to my brother-in law who condems me to hell to burn forever..Janis


          From: TJ <t35josiah@...>
          To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Mon, December 6, 2010 4:32:59 PM
          Subject: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Group Statement and Rules of Discussion

           

          Hello Janis,

          It's wonderful to have you here and thank you for sharing a bit about your situation. I couldn't agree more with you that the hellfire teaching is a disgrace to God. Consider what Jehovah himself told Jeremiah:

          "The sons of Israel and the sons of Judah have proved to be mere doers of what was bad in my eyes . . . they built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to make their sons and their daughters pass through the fire to Molech, a thing that I did not command them, neither did it come up into my heart to do this detestable thing." (Jeremiah 32:30, 35)

          Burning someone with fire eternally is certainly a "detestable thing" and isn't something Jehovah God would ever do or even think to do. Nor does he have the same type of anxious glee for punishing people that those judging others tend to have. "'Do I take any delight at all in the death of someone wicked,' is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, 'and not in that he should turn back from his ways and actually keep living?'" (Ezekiel 18:23)

          Have you thought about taking the free Bible course we offer? It's actually a lot of fun, you cover the major themes and teachings found in the Bible and you get any of your questions answered. The textbook we use is here: http://www.watchtower.org/e/bh/article_00.htm I think you might really enjoy it.

          Thanks,
          TJ

          --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, "JaniceH" <janicehuskey2007@...> wrote:
          >
          > Thank you soo much for allowing me to join your,group.I am so glad to know that the moderators are real JW,S.I am not a JW,I claim no religion at this time,I have been disappointed so many times by religion,but I do love God,& His word which I truly believe to be the bible.I have talked with a few JW,S,& they have all been really nice people,but then I get laughted at,& condemned to hell by my Baptist brother-in law,but I really don,t care.I do not believe that God would burn someone in a fire forever,also I beleive that it is a disgrace to God to even say He would do such a thing.I can,t understand why people say they believe in hell fire,& then turn,& do some of the things they do.I,m by no means a perfect person,but if I truly belived that God would burn me forever I would not do some of the things I see them do.I don,t believe one goes to hell,& burns forever,but out of the respect that I have for God.I would never do things I see them do.There are lots more things I beleive that I get laughted at about.I have been with several different churches,& none of them is for me.I do go on Watchtower website,& read a lot,& it seems you people teach from the bible,& not from what some person says .Again thank you very much...Janis

          T


        • Janice Huskey
          Thanks.I have coppied lots of info. for my brother-in-law who condems me to hell,because his Baptist preacher tells him to help me.I went to that church 1 time
          Message 4 of 16 , Dec 8, 2010
            Thanks.I have coppied lots of info. for my brother-in-law who condems me to hell,because his Baptist preacher tells him to help me.I went to that church 1 time with him & my sister,but i,ll NEVER GO AGAIN that preacher screamed,yelled at the top of his voice the whole time,while he beat on a bible never opned it,just stomped all over the house beating on it screaming about people burning in hell,it was horriable,my brother-in-law said he would take any info. I could find to show to him,we,ll just see what the precher can do with this probably nothing,but i,m hoping it will get them off me because I want no part of that relegion.Thanks a bunch !! Janis


            From: vicwarren711 <vicwarren711@...>
            To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wed, December 8, 2010 8:50:14 AM
            Subject: Re: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Group Statement and Rules of Discussion

             

            The hell fire doctrine goes against the four cardinal qualities of Jehovah namely: Love
                                                                                                                                             Justice
                                                                                                                                             Power
                                                                                                                                             Wisdom
            Love would a loving God eternally torture persons clearly not.

            Justice does the punishment fit the crime clearly not

            Power Hell fire would be an abuse of power it would go against the other cardinal qualities of Jehovah

            Wisdom showed that the penalty for sin is death NOT eternal Hellfire

            Your bro. Vic

            On 12/07/2010 01:24 PM, Janice Huskey wrote:
             
            Thank you very much for the site to the book i have read lots in it & will continue to do so also thanks for the scripture in Jeremiah its a good one to show to my brother-in law who condems me to hell to burn forever..Janis


            From: TJ <t35josiah@...>
            To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Mon, December 6, 2010 4:32:59 PM
            Subject: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Group Statement and Rules of Discussion

             

            Hello Janis,

            It's wonderful to have you here and thank you for sharing a bit about your situation. I couldn't agree more with you that the hellfire teaching is a disgrace to God. Consider what Jehovah himself told Jeremiah:

            "The sons of Israel and the sons of Judah have proved to be mere doers of what was bad in my eyes . . . they built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to make their sons and their daughters pass through the fire to Molech, a thing that I did not command them, neither did it come up into my heart to do this detestable thing." (Jeremiah 32:30, 35)

            Burning someone with fire eternally is certainly a "detestable thing" and isn't something Jehovah God would ever do or even think to do. Nor does he have the same type of anxious glee for punishing people that those judging others tend to have. "'Do I take any delight at all in the death of someone wicked,' is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, 'and not in that he should turn back from his ways and actually keep living?'" (Ezekiel 18:23)

            Have you thought about taking the free Bible course we offer? It's actually a lot of fun, you cover the major themes and teachings found in the Bible and you get any of your questions answered. The textbook we use is here: http://www.watchtower.org/e/bh/article_00.htm I think you might really enjoy it.

            Thanks,
            TJ

            --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, "JaniceH" <janicehuskey2007@...> wrote:
            >
            > Thank you soo much for allowing me to join your,group.I am so glad to know that the moderators are real JW,S.I am not a JW,I claim no religion at this time,I have been disappointed so many times by religion,but I do love God,& His word which I truly believe to be the bible.I have talked with a few JW,S,& they have all been really nice people,but then I get laughted at,& condemned to hell by my Baptist brother-in law,but I really don,t care.I do not believe that God would burn someone in a fire forever,also I beleive that it is a disgrace to God to even say He would do such a thing.I can,t understand why people say they believe in hell fire,& then turn,& do some of the things they do.I,m by no means a perfect person,but if I truly belived that God would burn me forever I would not do some of the things I see them do.I don,t believe one goes to hell,& burns forever,but out of the respect that I have for God.I would never do things I see them do.There are lots more things I beleive that I get laughted at about.I have been with several different churches,& none of them is for me.I do go on Watchtower website,& read a lot,& it seems you people teach from the bible,& not from what some person says .Again thank you very much...Janis

            T



          • Gloria
            The wrath of God towards the evil people that did nothing to help others... Math.25:41 eternal fire prepared for the devil Also in Rev. 20:14 and15 - If
            Message 5 of 16 , Dec 8, 2010
              The wrath of God towards the evil people that did nothing to help others...   Math.25:41
              "eternal fire prepared for the devil"

              Also in Rev. 20:14 and15 -   If your name is not in the Lamb's book of life you go into the lake of fire with the devil and his angels.
                                    







              From: vicwarren711 <vicwarren711@...>
              To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, December 8, 2010 5:50:14 AM
              Subject: Re: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Group Statement and Rules of Discussion

               

              The hell fire doctrine goes against the four cardinal qualities of Jehovah namely: Love
                                                                                                                                               Justice
                                                                                                                                               Power
                                                                                                                                               Wisdom
              Love would a loving God eternally torture persons clearly not.

              Justice does the punishment fit the crime clearly not

              Power Hell fire would be an abuse of power it would go against the other cardinal qualities of Jehovah

              Wisdom showed that the penalty for sin is death NOT eternal Hellfire

              Your bro. Vic

              On 12/07/2010 01:24 PM, Janice Huskey wrote:

               
              Thank you very much for the site to the book i have read lots in it & will continue to do so also thanks for the scripture in Jeremiah its a good one to show to my brother-in law who condems me to hell to burn forever..Janis


              From: TJ <t35josiah@...>
              To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, December 6, 2010 4:32:59 PM
              Subject: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Group Statement and Rules of Discussion

               

              Hello Janis,

              It's wonderful to have you here and thank you for sharing a bit about your situation. I couldn't agree more with you that the hellfire teaching is a disgrace to God. Consider what Jehovah himself told Jeremiah:

              "The sons of Israel and the sons of Judah have proved to be mere doers of what was bad in my eyes . . . they built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to make their sons and their daughters pass through the fire to Molech, a thing that I did not command them, neither did it come up into my heart to do this detestable thing." (Jeremiah 32:30, 35)

              Burning someone with fire eternally is certainly a "detestable thing" and isn't something Jehovah God would ever do or even think to do. Nor does he have the same type of anxious glee for punishing people that those judging others tend to have. "'Do I take any delight at all in the death of someone wicked,' is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, 'and not in that he should turn back from his ways and actually keep living?'" (Ezekiel 18:23)

              Have you thought about taking the free Bible course we offer? It's actually a lot of fun, you cover the major themes and teachings found in the Bible and you get any of your questions answered. The textbook we use is here: http://www.watchtower.org/e/bh/article_00.htm I think you might really enjoy it.

              Thanks,
              TJ

              --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, "JaniceH" <janicehuskey2007@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thank you soo much for allowing me to join your,group.I am so glad to know that the moderators are real JW,S.I am not a JW,I claim no religion at this time,I have been disappointed so many times by religion,but I do love God,& His word which I truly believe to be the bible.I have talked with a few JW,S,& they have all been really nice people,but then I get laughted at,& condemned to hell by my Baptist brother-in law,but I really don,t care.I do not believe that God would burn someone in a fire forever,also I beleive that it is a disgrace to God to even say He would do such a thing.I can,t understand why people say they believe in hell fire,& then turn,& do some of the things they do.I,m by no means a perfect person,but if I truly belived that God would burn me forever I would not do some of the things I see them do.I don,t believe one goes to hell,& burns forever,but out of the respect that I have for God.I would never do things I see them do.There are lots more things I beleive that I get laughted at about.I have been with several different churches,& none of them is for me.I do go on Watchtower website,& read a lot,& it seems you people teach from the bible,& not from what some person says .Again thank you very much...Janis

              T



            • bjt
              Hello Gloria, I would like to ask, just where is this place located? Where are the flames? What substance of a wicked person burns forever? Your interpretation
              Message 6 of 16 , Dec 8, 2010
                Hello Gloria,

                I would like to ask, just where is this place located? Where are the flames? What substance of a wicked person burns forever? Your interpretation does not agree with Scripture. For what purpose are the wicked and incorrigible, kept alive? The Scripture indicates that the penalty for sin is death. That is what Jehovah told Adam and Eve. Is it your position that Jehovah changed his mind and decided to burn the wicked forever?

                The scripture indicates that there is no dichotomy/dual parts in the creation of man - he was created exactly the same as the flying creatures, marine animals and land animals [they are all made from dust]. They all have the same breath [nish math] and are all called nephesh chai yah living souls. The prophet Ezekiel stated of man: "The soul that is sinning is the one that will die" han nephesh ha cho te th' hi' tha muth.'

                How can "death" [an inanimate condition] and "hell" [a burning place] be thrown into "the lake of fire" ? As for those who prove wicked after the thousand year reign - Revelation 20:9 states that "…fire came down out of heaven and devoured them." There was no longer an existence for them, they are blotted out, cut off, consumed as if by an all destructive fire.

                This completely and totally - harmonizes with Psalm 37:9 "…evildoers themselves will be cut off." 10) "…and the wicked one will be no more;…" 20) "For the wicked themselves will perish…They must come to their end. In smoke they must come to their end." 28) "…But as for the offspring of the wicked ones, they will indeed be cut off."…34) …When the wicked ones are cut off, you will see [it]." 38) "But the transgressors themselves will certainly be annihilated together; The future of wicked people will indeed be cut off." compare 2 Peter 2:9,12; Proverbs 2:22; 10:7; Psalm 21:8-10; Job 27:13,14

                "The sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Hades gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. And death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire."
                This means that those whose death was attributable to deterioration and failings because of Adamic sin - will be raised up from their burial place - Hades/Sheol, which is the common earthly grave of dead mankind. None of these mentioned in the text were in Gehenna or the lake of fire, but were in memorial tombs - as stated - in Hades/Sheol.

                These whom Almighty God did not attribute the condemnation of wickedness, but are said to be unrighteous, are allowed to live and grow to perfection during the thousand years . Those proving their righteousness after this period will be gifted with everlasting life Revelation 20:5

                The ones proving to be rebellious, wicked opposes of Almighty God, after Satan's release from the abyss, will be cut off, annihilated, devoured, destroyed forever. Their complete destruction comes from heaven.

                Satan and his demons will not live on in some kind of fiery pit, Genesis 3:15 states that Christ Jesus will bruise him in the head - a death dealing blow, neither will the angels that followed him as - 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6 make abundantly clear.

                As Jesus used the term - Gehenna was a final cutting off, a place from whence there was no resurrection.

                The valley of Hinnom was used as the incinerator for the filth of Jerusalem. Bodies of dead animals were thrown into the valley these were consumed in the fires kept burning by sulfur or brimstone. Bodies of executed criminals, were considered undeserving of burial in a memorial tomb [from where there would be a resurrection] those undeserving of a resurrection are totally annihilated, as if consumed in Gehenna.





                --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, Gloria <seppie925@...> wrote:
                >
                > The wrath of God towards the evil people that did nothing to help others...
                > Math.25:41
                > "eternal fire prepared for the devil"
                >
                > Also in Rev. 20:14 and15 - If your name is not in the Lamb's book of life you
                > go into the lake of fire with the devil and his angels.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: vicwarren711 <vicwarren711@...>
                > To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Wed, December 8, 2010 5:50:14 AM
                > Subject: Re: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Group Statement and Rules of
                > Discussion
                >
                >
                > The hell fire doctrine goes against the four cardinal qualities of Jehovah
                > namely: Love
                >
                > Justice
                >
                > Power
                >
                > Wisdom
                > Love would a loving God eternally torture persons clearly not.
                >
                > Justice does the punishment fit the crime clearly not
                >
                > Power Hell fire would be an abuse of power it would go against the other
                > cardinal qualities of Jehovah
                >
                > Wisdom showed that the penalty for sin is death NOT eternal Hellfire
                >
                > Your bro. Vic
                >
                > On 12/07/2010 01:24 PM, Janice Huskey wrote:
                >
                > >Thank you very much for the site to the book i have read lots in
                > >it & will continue to do so also thanks for the scripture in
                > >Jeremiah its a good one to show to my brother-in law who condems
                > >me to hell to burn forever..Janis
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > ________________________________
                > From: TJ <t35josiah@...>
                > >To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com
                > >Sent: Mon, December 6, 2010 4:32:59 PM
                > >Subject: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Group Statement and
                > >Rules of Discussion
                > >
                > >
                > >Hello Janis,
                > >
                > >It's wonderful to have you here and thank you for sharing
                > >a bit about your situation. I couldn't agree more with you
                > >that the hellfire teaching is a disgrace to God. Consider
                > >what Jehovah himself told Jeremiah:
                > >
                > >"The sons of Israel and the sons of Judah have proved to
                > >be mere doers of what was bad in my eyes . . . they built
                > >the high places of Baal that are in the valley of the son
                > >of Hinnom, in order to make their sons and their daughters
                > >pass through the fire to Molech, a thing that I did not
                > >command them, neither did it come up into my heart to do
                > >this detestable thing." (Jeremiah 32:30, 35)
                > >
                > >Burning someone with fire eternally is certainly a
                > >"detestable thing" and isn't something Jehovah God would
                > >ever do or even think to do. Nor does he have the same
                > >type of anxious glee for punishing people that those
                > >judging others tend to have. "'Do I take any delight at
                > >all in the death of someone wicked,' is the utterance of
                > >the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, 'and not in that he should
                > >turn back from his ways and actually keep living?'"
                > >(Ezekiel 18:23)
                > >
                > >Have you thought about taking the free Bible course we
                > >offer? It's actually a lot of fun, you cover the major
                > >themes and teachings found in the Bible and you get any of
                > >your questions answered. The textbook we use is here:
                > >http://www.watchtower.org/e/bh/article_00.htm I think you
                > >might really enjoy it.
                > >
                > >Thanks,
                > >TJ
                > >
                > >--- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, "JaniceH"
                > ><janicehuskey2007@> wrote:
                > >>
                > >> Thank you soo much for allowing me to join your,group.I
                > >>am so glad to know that the moderators are real JW,S.I am
                > >>not a JW,I claim no religion at this time,I have been
                > >>disappointed so many times by religion,but I do love God,&
                > >>His word which I truly believe to be the bible.I have
                > >>talked with a few JW,S,& they have all been really nice
                > >>people,but then I get laughted at,& condemned to hell by
                > >>my Baptist brother-in law,but I really don,t care.I do not
                > >>believe that God would burn someone in a fire forever,also
                > >>I beleive that it is a disgrace to God to even say He
                > >>would do such a thing.I can,t understand why people say
                > >>they believe in hell fire,& then turn,& do some of the
                > >>things they do.I,m by no means a perfect person,but if I
                > >>truly belived that God would burn me forever I would not
                > >>do some of the things I see them do.I don,t believe one
                > >>goes to hell,& burns forever,but out of the respect that I
                > >>have for God.I would never do things I see them do.There
                > >>are lots more things I beleive that I get laughted at
                > >>about.I have been with several different churches,& none
                > >>of them is for me.I do go on Watchtower website,& read a
                > >>lot,& it seems you people teach from the bible,& not from
                > >>what some person says .Again thank you very much...Janis
                > >
                > >
                > T
                > >
                >
              • Paul Leonard
                Right along with death and hades/hell. ________________________________ From: Gloria To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                Message 7 of 16 , Dec 8, 2010
                  Right along with death and hades/hell.



                  From: Gloria <seppie925@...>
                  To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wed, December 8, 2010 1:48:12 PM
                  Subject: Re: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Group Statement and Rules of Discussion

                   

                  The wrath of God towards the evil people that did nothing to help others...   Math.25:41
                  "eternal fire prepared for the devil"

                  Also in Rev. 20:14 and15 -   If your name is not in the Lamb's book of life you go into the lake of fire with the devil and his angels.
                                        







                  From: vicwarren711 <vicwarren711@...>
                  To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wed, December 8, 2010 5:50:14 AM
                  Subject: Re: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Group Statement and Rules of Discussion

                   

                  The hell fire doctrine goes against the four cardinal qualities of Jehovah namely: Love
                                                                                                                                                   Justice
                                                                                                                                                   Power
                                                                                                                                                   Wisdom
                  Love would a loving God eternally torture persons clearly not.

                  Justice does the punishment fit the crime clearly not

                  Power Hell fire would be an abuse of power it would go against the other cardinal qualities of Jehovah

                  Wisdom showed that the penalty for sin is death NOT eternal Hellfire

                  Your bro. Vic

                  On 12/07/2010 01:24 PM, Janice Huskey wrote:

                   
                  Thank you very much for the site to the book i have read lots in it & will continue to do so also thanks for the scripture in Jeremiah its a good one to show to my brother-in law who condems me to hell to burn forever..Janis


                  From: TJ <t35josiah@...>
                  To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Mon, December 6, 2010 4:32:59 PM
                  Subject: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Group Statement and Rules of Discussion

                   

                  Hello Janis,

                  It's wonderful to have you here and thank you for sharing a bit about your situation. I couldn't agree more with you that the hellfire teaching is a disgrace to God. Consider what Jehovah himself told Jeremiah:

                  "The sons of Israel and the sons of Judah have proved to be mere doers of what was bad in my eyes . . . they built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to make their sons and their daughters pass through the fire to Molech, a thing that I did not command them, neither did it come up into my heart to do this detestable thing." (Jeremiah 32:30, 35)

                  Burning someone with fire eternally is certainly a "detestable thing" and isn't something Jehovah God would ever do or even think to do. Nor does he have the same type of anxious glee for punishing people that those judging others tend to have. "'Do I take any delight at all in the death of someone wicked,' is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, 'and not in that he should turn back from his ways and actually keep living?'" (Ezekiel 18:23)

                  Have you thought about taking the free Bible course we offer? It's actually a lot of fun, you cover the major themes and teachings found in the Bible and you get any of your questions answered. The textbook we use is here: http://www.watchtower.org/e/bh/article_00.htm I think you might really enjoy it.

                  Thanks,
                  TJ

                  --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, "JaniceH" <janicehuskey2007@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Thank you soo much for allowing me to join your,group.I am so glad to know that the moderators are real JW,S.I am not a JW,I claim no religion at this time,I have been disappointed so many times by religion,but I do love God,& His word which I truly believe to be the bible.I have talked with a few JW,S,& they have all been really nice people,but then I get laughted at,& condemned to hell by my Baptist brother-in law,but I really don,t care.I do not believe that God would burn someone in a fire forever,also I beleive that it is a disgrace to God to even say He would do such a thing.I can,t understand why people say they believe in hell fire,& then turn,& do some of the things they do.I,m by no means a perfect person,but if I truly belived that God would burn me forever I would not do some of the things I see them do.I don,t believe one goes to hell,& burns forever,but out of the respect that I have for God.I would never do things I see them do.There are lots more things I beleive that I get laughted at about.I have been with several different churches,& none of them is for me.I do go on Watchtower website,& read a lot,& it seems you people teach from the bible,& not from what some person says .Again thank you very much...Janis

                  T



                • moto_bl
                  At Matthew 25:41, Jesus said, Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and
                  Message 8 of 16 , Dec 8, 2010

                    At Matthew 25:41, Jesus said, "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels".

                    The fact that this "everlasting fire" is also "prepared for the devil and his angels" is significant because elsewhere in the Bible we are informed that the devil will be destroyed or forced into non-existence. On this the latter part of Hebrews 2:14 tells us that, "...Through death (Jesus) might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil". This means then that "everlasting fire" prepared for the devil means that he will be `destroyed' forever. That makes sense since it does not appear from scripture that literal fire could do anything to harm spirit creatures like the devil and his angels. Since the earthly wicked are thrown into the same "fire", we seemed to be forced to conclude that the "fire" confronting them is symbolic, not literal.

                    Speaking of symbolic fire, anotherpaul and Beverly brought out a good point. If the lake of fire is literal, how can death or hades/hell be literally burned?  Likewise, the Devil, an invisible spirit creature, is thrown into the lake. Being spirit, he also cannot be hurt by literal fire. (Rev. 20:10)  

                    The Bible gives its own explanation and definition of the symbol by stating: "This means the second death, the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:14; 21:8)

                    Since the lake of fire represents "the second death" and since Revelation 20:14 says that both "death and Hades" are to be cast into it, it is evident that those not found written in "the book of life," are hurled into the lake of fire, meaning eternal destruction, or the second death. (Rev. 20:15)

                     

                    --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, Paul Leonard <anotherpaul2001@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Right along with death and hades/hell.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: Gloria seppie925@...
                    > To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Wed, December 8, 2010 1:48:12 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Group Statement and Rules of
                    > Discussion
                    >
                    >
                    > The wrath of God towards the evil people that did nothing to help others...
                    > Math.25:41
                    > "eternal fire prepared for the devil"
                    >
                    > Also in Rev. 20:14 and15 - If your name is not in the Lamb's book of life you
                    > go into the lake of fire with the devil and his angels.

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