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Re: John 14:14

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  • Bar_Enosh
    The Sahidic Coptic of John 14:14: etetnSanaiti nouHwb Hm paran. pai TnaaaF. Coptic scholar George Horner renders this as: If ye should ask a thing in my name,
    Message 1 of 5 , Oct 20, 2009
      The Sahidic Coptic of John 14:14:

      etetnSanaiti nouHwb Hm paran. pai TnaaaF.

      Coptic scholar George Horner renders this as: "If ye should ask a thing in my name, this I shall do." The Coptic text does not have "ask ME."

      Whereas "ask me" is found in p66 (the earliest extant Greek text) and similar early codices, it is absent from a variety of other early textual witnesses.

      Therefore, at best, the variant readings render the text ambiguous, and an ambiguous text cannot be used to "prove" anything.

      Even if by some happenstance Jesus did say on this occasion "ask me," this would have to be viewed in the context of his speaking to his immediate disciples who were with him at the time, while he was still alive on earth.

      But many ancient textual witnesses, including the Sahidic Coptic text, simply say "ask anything in my name," omitting "me."

      Solomon
      http://nwtandcoptic.blogspot.com

      --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, ginosko92 <no_reply@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Solomon or anyone familiar with Coptic
      >
      > can you please give me a rendition of how John 14:14 is translated in
      > the coptic?
      > It seems that trinitarians like to show that if Jesus is prayed to it
      > proves his deity.
      >
      > Teddy, Moto
      >
      > I read your article in response to Bowman on this issue. It seems though
      > that the older manuscripts available to us to have "me" in them. To be
      > honest I haven't considered all the evidence on this issue so I can't
      > say that that is for sure. If you guys have any further info to
      > contribute in this matter I would really appreciate it.
      >
      > Dom
      >
    • ginosko92
      Solomon, Is the coptic dated earlier than the present known greek MSS? as usual thank you very much for your replies! Dom ... thing in my name, this I shall
      Message 2 of 5 , Oct 21, 2009
        Solomon,

        Is the coptic dated earlier than the present known greek MSS?

        as usual thank you very much for your replies!

        Dom


        --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, "Bar_Enosh"
        <Awohili@...> wrote:
        >
        > The Sahidic Coptic of John 14:14:
        >
        > etetnSanaiti nouHwb Hm paran. pai TnaaaF.
        >
        > Coptic scholar George Horner renders this as: "If ye should ask a
        thing in my name, this I shall do." The Coptic text does not have "ask
        ME."
        >
        > Whereas "ask me" is found in p66 (the earliest extant Greek text) and
        similar early codices, it is absent from a variety of other early
        textual witnesses.
        >
        > Therefore, at best, the variant readings render the text ambiguous,
        and an ambiguous text cannot be used to "prove" anything.
        >
        > Even if by some happenstance Jesus did say on this occasion "ask me,"
        this would have to be viewed in the context of his speaking to his
        immediate disciples who were with him at the time, while he was still
        alive on earth.
        >
        > But many ancient textual witnesses, including the Sahidic Coptic text,
        simply say "ask anything in my name," omitting "me."
        >
        > Solomon
        > http://nwtandcoptic.blogspot.com
        >
        > --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, ginosko92 no_reply@
        wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > Solomon or anyone familiar with Coptic
        > >
        > > can you please give me a rendition of how John 14:14 is translated
        in
        > > the coptic?
        > > It seems that trinitarians like to show that if Jesus is prayed to
        it
        > > proves his deity.
        > >
        > > Teddy, Moto
        > >
        > > I read your article in response to Bowman on this issue. It seems
        though
        > > that the older manuscripts available to us to have "me" in them. To
        be
        > > honest I haven't considered all the evidence on this issue so I
        can't
        > > say that that is for sure. If you guys have any further info to
        > > contribute in this matter I would really appreciate it.
        > >
        > > Dom
        > >
        >
      • Bar_Enosh
        Papyrus Bodmer II, also known as p66, is the earliest extant text of John. It is dated to the middle second century, CE. The Sahidic Coptic text is dated
        Message 3 of 5 , Oct 22, 2009
          Papyrus Bodmer II, also known as p66, is the earliest extant text of John. It is dated to the middle second century, CE.

          The Sahidic Coptic text is dated generally from the late second century to early third century, CE.

          http://copticjohn.blogspot.com/2007/11/on-date-of-coptic-version.html

          Whereas all such early dates are approximate it would still appear that the Sahidic text is one of the earliest translations of John's Greek Gospel into any language.

          It should be remembered that Koine Greek was still a living language in Egypt when the Coptic version was made, and that Egyptians (proselytes or Egytian Jews) were present at Pentecost CE, and likely took Christianity to Egypt from earliest times. (Acts 2:10, 11) The eloquent Apollos was from Alexandria, Egypt, and may also have returned to his native land to preach. (Acts 18:24-28; Titus 3:13)

          Solomon

          --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, ginosko92 <no_reply@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Solomon,
          >
          > Is the coptic dated earlier than the present known greek MSS?
          >
          > as usual thank you very much for your replies!
          >
          > Dom
          >
          >
          > --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, "Bar_Enosh"
          > <Awohili@> wrote:
          > >
          > > The Sahidic Coptic of John 14:14:
          > >
          > > etetnSanaiti nouHwb Hm paran. pai TnaaaF.
          > >
          > > Coptic scholar George Horner renders this as: "If ye should ask a
          > thing in my name, this I shall do." The Coptic text does not have "ask
          > ME."
          > >
          > > Whereas "ask me" is found in p66 (the earliest extant Greek text) and
          > similar early codices, it is absent from a variety of other early
          > textual witnesses.
          > >
          > > Therefore, at best, the variant readings render the text ambiguous,
          > and an ambiguous text cannot be used to "prove" anything.
          > >
          > > Even if by some happenstance Jesus did say on this occasion "ask me,"
          > this would have to be viewed in the context of his speaking to his
          > immediate disciples who were with him at the time, while he was still
          > alive on earth.
          > >
          > > But many ancient textual witnesses, including the Sahidic Coptic text,
          > simply say "ask anything in my name," omitting "me."
          > >
          > > Solomon
          > > http://nwtandcoptic.blogspot.com
          > >
          > > --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, ginosko92 no_reply@
          > wrote:
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Solomon or anyone familiar with Coptic
          > > >
          > > > can you please give me a rendition of how John 14:14 is translated
          > in
          > > > the coptic?
          > > > It seems that trinitarians like to show that if Jesus is prayed to
          > it
          > > > proves his deity.
          > > >
          > > > Teddy, Moto
          > > >
          > > > I read your article in response to Bowman on this issue. It seems
          > though
          > > > that the older manuscripts available to us to have "me" in them. To
          > be
          > > > honest I haven't considered all the evidence on this issue so I
          > can't
          > > > say that that is for sure. If you guys have any further info to
          > > > contribute in this matter I would really appreciate it.
          > > >
          > > > Dom
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • ginosko92
          Solomon thank you that was very interesting. Dom ... John. It is dated to the middle second century, CE. ... century to early third century, CE. ... that the
          Message 4 of 5 , Oct 22, 2009
            Solomon

            thank you that was very interesting.

            Dom
            --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, "Bar_Enosh"
            <Awohili@...> wrote:
            >
            > Papyrus Bodmer II, also known as p66, is the earliest extant text of
            John. It is dated to the middle second century, CE.
            >
            > The Sahidic Coptic text is dated generally from the late second
            century to early third century, CE.
            >
            > http://copticjohn.blogspot.com/2007/11/on-date-of-coptic-version.html
            >
            > Whereas all such early dates are approximate it would still appear
            that the Sahidic text is one of the earliest translations of John's
            Greek Gospel into any language.
            >
            > It should be remembered that Koine Greek was still a living language
            in Egypt when the Coptic version was made, and that Egyptians
            (proselytes or Egytian Jews) were present at Pentecost CE, and likely
            took Christianity to Egypt from earliest times. (Acts 2:10, 11) The
            eloquent Apollos was from Alexandria, Egypt, and may also have returned
            to his native land to preach. (Acts 18:24-28; Titus 3:13)
            >
            > Solomon
            >
            > --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, ginosko92 no_reply@
            wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > Solomon,
            > >
            > > Is the coptic dated earlier than the present known greek MSS?
            > >
            > > as usual thank you very much for your replies!
            > >
            > > Dom
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, "Bar_Enosh"
            > > <Awohili@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > The Sahidic Coptic of John 14:14:
            > > >
            > > > etetnSanaiti nouHwb Hm paran. pai TnaaaF.
            > > >
            > > > Coptic scholar George Horner renders this as: "If ye should ask a
            > > thing in my name, this I shall do." The Coptic text does not have
            "ask
            > > ME."
            > > >
            > > > Whereas "ask me" is found in p66 (the earliest extant Greek text)
            and
            > > similar early codices, it is absent from a variety of other early
            > > textual witnesses.
            > > >
            > > > Therefore, at best, the variant readings render the text
            ambiguous,
            > > and an ambiguous text cannot be used to "prove" anything.
            > > >
            > > > Even if by some happenstance Jesus did say on this occasion "ask
            me,"
            > > this would have to be viewed in the context of his speaking to his
            > > immediate disciples who were with him at the time, while he was
            still
            > > alive on earth.
            > > >
            > > > But many ancient textual witnesses, including the Sahidic Coptic
            text,
            > > simply say "ask anything in my name," omitting "me."
            > > >
            > > > Solomon
            > > > http://nwtandcoptic.blogspot.com
            > > >
            > > > --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, ginosko92
            no_reply@
            > > wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Solomon or anyone familiar with Coptic
            > > > >
            > > > > can you please give me a rendition of how John 14:14 is
            translated
            > > in
            > > > > the coptic?
            > > > > It seems that trinitarians like to show that if Jesus is prayed
            to
            > > it
            > > > > proves his deity.
            > > > >
            > > > > Teddy, Moto
            > > > >
            > > > > I read your article in response to Bowman on this issue. It
            seems
            > > though
            > > > > that the older manuscripts available to us to have "me" in them.
            To
            > > be
            > > > > honest I haven't considered all the evidence on this issue so I
            > > can't
            > > > > say that that is for sure. If you guys have any further info to
            > > > > contribute in this matter I would really appreciate it.
            > > > >
            > > > > Dom
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
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