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Re: Request

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  • teddy_trueblood
    It appears that the oldest existing manuscripts of the Septuagint which include Isaiah 9:6 are the 4th century AD Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus. They
    Message 1 of 23 , Jul 5, 2008

      It appears that the oldest existing manuscripts of the Septuagint which include Isaiah 9:6 are the 4th century AD Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus.

      They both render Is. 9:6 as:

      "For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger [or 'Angel' - aggelos] of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him."

      Codex Alexandrinus of the 5th century, however, translates Is. 9:6 as found in our English Bibles.

      .....................................


      --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, takacs ianos <iul41@...> wrote:
      >
      > Another question, please.
      > I want to know if exist an ancient copy of Septuaginta, BC, and how is translated there Isaiah 9:6
      > Thank's a lot.
      > John
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message ----
      > From: takacs ianos iul41@...
      > To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Friday, July 4, 2008 5:57:51 PM
      > Subject: Re: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Request
      >
      >
      > Thank you very much.
      > It is a very good document.
      > John
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message ----
      > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com>
      > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
      > Sent: Thursday, July 3, 2008 9:57:50 PM
      > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
      >
      >
      > Click on the following and then select "History of the Trinity":
      > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/JWquestion s-and_answers/ files/Trinity/ 
      >
      > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, "iul41" iul41@ wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi,
      > > Somebody sent me a mail about
      > > Pythagoras and Pythagoreanism
      > > (From "History of the 'Christian' Trinity" in the Files section here:
      > > Files->Trinity-> History of the 'Christian' Trinity )
      > >
      > > and
      > >
      > > a short commentary before this.
      > >
      > > If somebody have this letter, pls sent me again.
      > > Thank's a lot.
      > > John
      > >
      >

    • takacs ianos
      Thank s a lot brother, this is a great resource. Another question How is translated Isaiah 9:6 in old Aramaic Targums? Thank s a lot John ... From:
      Message 2 of 23 , Jul 6, 2008
        Thank's a lot brother, this is a great resource.
        Another question> How is translated Isaiah 9:6 in old Aramaic Targums?
        Thank's a lot
        John

        ----- Original Message ----
        From: teddy_trueblood <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
        To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, July 6, 2008 3:35:17 AM
        Subject: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Request

        It appears that the oldest existing manuscripts of the Septuagint which include Isaiah 9:6 are the 4th century AD Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus.

        They both render Is. 9:6 as:

        "For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger [or 'Angel' - aggelos] of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him."

        Codex Alexandrinus of the 5th century, however, translates Is. 9:6 as found in our English Bibles.

        ............ ......... ......... .......


        --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos <iul41@...> wrote:
        >
        > Another question, please.
        > I want to know if exist an ancient copy of Septuaginta, BC, and how is translated there Isaiah 9:6
        > Thank's a lot.
        > John
        >
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message ----
        > From: takacs ianos iul41@...
        > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
        > Sent: Friday, July 4, 2008 5:57:51 PM
        > Subject: Re: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
        >
        >
        > Thank you very much.
        > It is a very good document.
        > John
        >
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message ----
        > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com>
        > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
        > Sent: Thursday, July 3, 2008 9:57:50 PM
        > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
        >
        >
        > Click on the following and then select "History of the Trinity":
        > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/JWquestion s-and_answers/ files/Trinity/ 
        >
        > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, "iul41" iul41@ wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi,
        > > Somebody sent me a mail about
        > > Pythagoras and Pythagoreanism
        > > (From "History of the 'Christian' Trinity" in the Files section here:
        > > Files->Trinity-> History of the 'Christian' Trinity )
        > >
        > > and
        > >
        > > a short commentary before this.
        > >
        > > If somebody have this letter, pls sent me again.
        > > Thank's a lot.
        > > John
        > >
        >


      • teddy_trueblood
        This is all I ve found: Is. 9:6 So what is in this person s name. I submit that all of the terms but the last one Sar Shalom are not part of the person s
        Message 3 of 23 , Jul 6, 2008

          This is all I've found:

           Is. 9:6

          "So what is in this person's name. I submit that all of the terms but the last one "Sar Shalom" are not part of the person's name but are descriptions of G-d himself. for evidence I give the Aramaic targum of Yonatan to Isaiah to clarify the misconception of the person's name:
           
          Targum Yonatan:
          àÇîÇø ðÀáÄéÈà ìÀáÅéú ãÈåÄã àÂøÅé øÈáÅé àÄéúÀéÀìÄéã ìÈðÈà áÌÇø àÄúÀéÀäÇá ìÈðÈà åÀ÷ÇáÌÅì àåÉøÇéÀúÈà òÂìåÉäÄé ìÀîÇèÀøÈäÌ åÀàÄúÀ÷ÀøÅé ùÀîÅéäÌ îÄï ÷ÇãÈí îÇôÀìÄéà òÅöÈä àÃìÈäÈà ðÄáÌÈøÈà ÷ÇéÈí ìÀòÇìÀîÇéÈà îÀùÄéçÈà ãÄùÀìÈîÈà éÇñÀâÅé òÂìÈðÈà áÌÀéåÉîåÉäÄé
           
          "Translation:
           
          "The Prophet said to the House of David, For a Child is born to us, to us a son is given; and he will accept the Torah upon himself to observe it, and his name shall be called before the Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty G-d, who exists forever, "The anointed one in who's days peace will increase upon us."
           
          "From the Targum we can tell that the terms "Pele yo'etz ( ôÌÆìÆà éÌåÉòÅõ )," "El gibbor ( àÅì âÌÄáÌåÉø )," "Avi-Ad ( àÂáÄé-òÇã )" were never meant to be human attributes but that of G-d's himself. the only thing that was left to the child mentioned was "Sar-Shalom ( ùÇø-ùÈìåÉí )" rendered correctly as "Peaceful Ruler." The Targum calls this person "the anointed one in who's days peace will increase upon us." the Targum makes a careful play on the words "Sar-Shalom" trying to place it as a future King who will bring peace in his days." - http://jewishcountermissionary.blogspot.com/


          --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, takacs ianos <iul41@...> wrote:
          >
          > Thank's a lot brother, this is a great resource.
          > Another question> How is translated Isaiah 9:6 in old Aramaic Targums?
          > Thank's a lot
          > John
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message ----
          > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroups.com
          > To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Sunday, July 6, 2008 3:35:17 AM
          > Subject: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Request
          >
          >
          > It appears that the oldest existing manuscripts of the Septuagint which include Isaiah 9:6 are the 4th century AD Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus.
          > They both render Is. 9:6 as:
          > "For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger [or 'Angel' - aggelos] of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him."
          > Codex Alexandrinus of the 5th century, however, translates Is. 9:6 as found in our English Bibles.
          > ............ ......... ......... .......
          >
          > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos iul41@ wrote:
          > >
          > > Another question, please.
          > > I want to know if exist an ancient copy of Septuaginta, BC, and how is translated there Isaiah 9:6
          > > Thank's a lot.
          > > John

        • takacs ianos
          Thank s again. It looks like a pharaphase... Well, a last question in this subject. In jewish common Torah, how is Is. 9:6? ... From: teddy_trueblood
          Message 4 of 23 , Jul 7, 2008
            Thank's again. It looks like a pharaphase...
            Well, a last question in this subject. In jewish common Torah, how is Is. 9:6?

            ----- Original Message ----
            From: teddy_trueblood <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
            To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, July 7, 2008 2:29:47 AM
            Subject: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Request

            This is all I've found:

             Is. 9:6

            "So what is in this person's name. I submit that all of the terms but the last one "Sar Shalom" are not part of the person's name but are descriptions of G-d himself. for evidence I give the Aramaic targum of Yonatan to Isaiah to clarify the misconception of the person's name:
             
            Targum Yonatan:
            àÇîÇø ðÀáÄéÈà ìÀáÅéú ãÈåÄã àÂøÅé øÈáÅé àÄéúÀéÀìÄéã ìÈðÈà áÌÇø àÄúÀéÀäÇá ìÈðÈà åÀ÷ÇáÌÅì àåÉøÇéÀúÈà òÂìåÉäÄé ìÀîÇèÀøÈäÌ åÀàÄúÀ÷ÀøÅé ùÀîÅéäÌ îÄï ÷ÇãÈí îÇôÀìÄéà òÅöÈä àÃìÈäÈà ðÄáÌÈøÈà ÷ÇéÈí ìÀòÇìÀîÇéÈà îÀùÄéçÈà ãÄùÀìÈîÈà éÇñÀâÅé òÂìÈðÈà áÌÀéåÉîåÉäÄé
             
            "Translation:
             
            "The Prophet said to the House of David, For a Child is born to us, to us a son is given; and he will accept the Torah upon himself to observe it, and his name shall be called before the Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty G-d, who exists forever, "The anointed one in who's days peace will increase upon us."
             
            "From the Targum we can tell that the terms "Pele yo'etz ( ôÌÆìÆà éÌåÉòÅõ )," "El gibbor ( àÅì âÌÄáÌåÉø )," "Avi-Ad ( àÂáÄé-òÇã )" were never meant to be human attributes but that of G-d's himself. the only thing that was left to the child mentioned was "Sar-Shalom ( ùÇø-ùÈìåÉí )" rendered correctly as "Peaceful Ruler." The Targum calls this person "the anointed one in who's days peace will increase upon us." the Targum makes a careful play on the words "Sar-Shalom" trying to place it as a future King who will bring peace in his days." - http://jewishcounte rmissionary. blogspot. com/


            --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos <iul41@...> wrote:
            >
            > Thank's a lot brother, this is a great resource.
            > Another question> How is translated Isaiah 9:6 in old Aramaic Targums?
            > Thank's a lot
            > John
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message ----
            > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
            > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
            > Sent: Sunday, July 6, 2008 3:35:17 AM
            > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
            >
            >
            > It appears that the oldest existing manuscripts of the Septuagint which include Isaiah 9:6 are the 4th century AD Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus.
            > They both render Is. 9:6 as:
            > "For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger [or 'Angel' - aggelos] of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him."
            > Codex Alexandrinus of the 5th century, however, translates Is. 9:6 as found in our English Bibles.
            > ............ ......... ......... .......
            >
            > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos iul41@ wrote:
            > >
            > > Another question, please.
            > > I want to know if exist an ancient copy of Septuaginta, BC, and how is translated there Isaiah 9:6
            > > Thank's a lot.
            > > John


          • teddy_trueblood
            As usually understood, the Torah is the first five books of the OT (the writings of Moses). So Is. 9:6 would not be included in the Torah. However, the OT
            Message 5 of 23 , Jul 7, 2008
              As usually understood, the Torah is the first five books of the OT (the
              writings of Moses). So Is. 9:6 would not be included in the Torah.
              However, the OT also includes much more as found in the Masoretic Text.
              There Is. 9:5 (9:6 in most English Bibles) is literally written as:

              "for child he-is-born to-us son he-is-given to-us and-she-will-be
              the-government on shoulder-of-him and-he-will-call name-of-him
              Wonder-of One-Counseling God-of Might Father-of Everlasting
              Prince-of Peace" - The NIV Interlinear Hebrew-English Old Testament,
              Vol. 4, Zondervan Publ., 1985.




              --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, takacs ianos <iul41@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Thank's again. It looks like a pharaphase...
              > Well, a last question in this subject. In jewish common Torah, how is
              Is. 9:6?
              >
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message ----
              > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroups.com
              > To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Monday, July 7, 2008 2:29:47 AM
              > Subject: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Request
              >
              >
              > This is all I've found:
              > Is. 9:6
              > "So what is in this person's name. I submit that all of the terms but
              the last one "Sar Shalom" are not part of the person's name but are
              descriptions of G-d himself. for evidence I give the Aramaic targum of
              Yonatan to Isaiah to clarify the misconception of the person's name:
              >
              > Targum Yonatan:
              > àÇîÇø ðÀáÄéÈà ìÀáÅéú ãÈåÄã àÂøÅé øÈáÅé
              àÄéúÀéÀìÄéã ìÈðÈà áÌÇø àÄúÀéÀäÇá ìÈðÈà åÀ÷ÇáÌÅì
              àåÉøÇéÀúÈà òÂìåÉäÄé ìÀîÇèÀøÈäÌ åÀàÄúÀ÷ÀøÅé ùÀîÅéäÌ îÄï
              ÷ÇãÈí îÇôÀìÄéà òÅöÈä àÃìÈäÈà ðÄáÌÈøÈà ÷ÇéÈí
              ìÀòÇìÀîÇéÈà îÀùÄéçÈà ãÄùÀìÈîÈà éÇñÀâÅé òÂìÈðÈà
              áÌÀéåÉîåÉäÄé
              >
              > "Translation:
              >
              > "The Prophet said to the House of David, For a Child is born to us, to
              us a son is given; and he will accept the Torah upon himself to observe
              it, and his name shall be called before the Wonderful Counselor, the
              Mighty G-d, who exists forever, "The anointed one in who's days peace
              will increase upon us."
              >
              > "From the Targum we can tell that the terms "Pele yo'etz ( ôÌÆìÆà
              éÌåÉòÅõ )," "El gibbor ( àÅì âÌÄáÌåÉø )," "Avi-Ad (
              àÂáÄé-òÇã )" were never meant to be human attributes but that of
              G-d's himself. the only thing that was left to the child mentioned was
              "Sar-Shalom ( ùÇø-ùÈìåÉí )" rendered correctly as "Peaceful
              Ruler." The Targum calls this person "the anointed one in who's days
              peace will increase upon us." the Targum makes a careful play on the
              words "Sar-Shalom" trying to place it as a future King who will bring
              peace in his days." - http://jewishcounte rmissionary. blogspot. com/
              >
              > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos iul41@
              wrote:
              > >
              > > Thank's a lot brother, this is a great resource.
              > > Another question> How is translated Isaiah 9:6 in old Aramaic
              Targums?
              > > Thank's a lot
              > > John
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message ----
              > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
              > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
              > > Sent: Sunday, July 6, 2008 3:35:17 AM
              > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
              > >
              > >
              > > It appears that the oldest existing manuscripts of the Septuagint
              which include Isaiah 9:6 are the 4th century AD Codex Vaticanus and
              Codex Sinaiticus.
              > > They both render Is. 9:6 as:
              > > "For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose
              government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger
              [or 'Angel' - aggelos] of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the
              princes, and health to him."
              > > Codex Alexandrinus of the 5th century, however, translates Is. 9:6
              as found in our English Bibles.
              > > ............ ......... ......... .......
              > >
              > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos
              iul41@ wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Another question, please.
              > > > I want to know if exist an ancient copy of Septuaginta, BC, and
              how is translated there Isaiah 9:6
              > > > Thank's a lot.
              > > > John
              >
            • geri elmer
              This is wonderful research. ... From: takacs ianos Subject: Re: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Request To:
              Message 6 of 23 , Jul 7, 2008
                This is wonderful research.

                --- On Mon, 7/7/08, takacs ianos <iul41@...> wrote:
                From: takacs ianos <iul41@...>
                Subject: Re: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Request
                To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Monday, July 7, 2008, 1:08 PM

                Thank's again. It looks like a pharaphase.. .
                Well, a last question in this subject. In jewish common Torah, how is Is. 9:6?

                ----- Original Message ----
                From: teddy_trueblood <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com>
                To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                Sent: Monday, July 7, 2008 2:29:47 AM
                Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request

                This is all I've found:

                 Is. 9:6

                "So what is in this person's name. I submit that all of the terms but the last one "Sar Shalom" are not part of the person's name but are descriptions of G-d himself. for evidence I give the Aramaic targum of Yonatan to Isaiah to clarify the misconception of the person's name:
                 
                Targum Yonatan:
                àÇîÇø ðÀáÄéÈà ìÀáÅéú ãÈåÄã àÂøÅé øÈáÅé àÄéúÀéÀìÄéã ìÈðÈà áÌÇø àÄúÀéÀäÇá ìÈðÈà åÀ÷ÇáÌÅì àåÉøÇéÀúÈà òÂìåÉäÄé ìÀîÇèÀøÈäÌ åÀàÄúÀ÷ÀøÅé ùÀîÅéäÌ îÄï ÷ÇãÈí îÇôÀìÄéà òÅöÈä àÃìÈäÈà ðÄáÌÈøÈà ÷ÇéÈí ìÀòÇìÀîÇéÈà îÀùÄéçÈà ãÄùÀìÈîÈà éÇñÀâÅé òÂìÈðÈà áÌÀéåÉîåÉäÄé
                 
                "Translation:
                 
                "The Prophet said to the House of David, For a Child is born to us, to us a son is given; and he will accept the Torah upon himself to observe it, and his name shall be called before the Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty G-d, who exists forever, "The anointed one in who's days peace will increase upon us."
                 
                "From the Targum we can tell that the terms "Pele yo'etz ( ôÌÆìÆà éÌåÉòÅõ )," "El gibbor ( àÅì âÌÄáÌåÉø )," "Avi-Ad ( àÂáÄé-òÇã )" were never meant to be human attributes but that of G-d's himself. the only thing that was left to the child mentioned was "Sar-Shalom ( ùÇø-ùÈìåÉí )" rendered correctly as "Peaceful Ruler." The Targum calls this person "the anointed one in who's days peace will increase upon us." the Targum makes a careful play on the words "Sar-Shalom" trying to place it as a future King who will bring peace in his days." - http://jewishcounte rmissionary. blogspot. com/


                --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos <iul41@...> wrote:
                >
                > Thank's a lot brother, this is a great resource.
                > Another question> How is translated Isaiah 9:6 in old Aramaic Targums?
                > Thank's a lot
                > John
                >
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message ----
                > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                > Sent: Sunday, July 6, 2008 3:35:17 AM
                > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                >
                >
                > It appears that the oldest existing manuscripts of the Septuagint which include Isaiah 9:6 are the 4th century AD Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus.
                > They both render Is. 9:6 as:
                > "For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger [or 'Angel' - aggelos] of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him."
                > Codex Alexandrinus of the 5th century, however, translates Is. 9:6 as found in our English Bibles.
                > ............ ......... ......... .......
                >
                > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos iul41@ wrote:
                > >
                > > Another question, please.
                > > I want to know if exist an ancient copy of Septuaginta, BC, and how is translated there Isaiah 9:6
                > > Thank's a lot.
                > > John



              • takacs ianos
                OK. Yes. This is not in Torah. The NIV International Hebrew English text is translated by christians? If yes, could you give me a judaist translation, please?
                Message 7 of 23 , Jul 8, 2008
                  OK. Yes. This is not in Torah.
                  The NIV International Hebrew English text is translated by christians?
                  If yes, could you give me a judaist translation, please?
                  Thank's again

                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: teddy_trueblood <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                  To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, July 7, 2008 10:07:09 PM
                  Subject: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Request



                  As usually understood, the Torah is the first five books of the OT (the
                  writings of Moses). So Is. 9:6 would not be included in the Torah.
                  However, the OT also includes much more as found in the Masoretic Text.
                  There Is. 9:5 (9:6 in most English Bibles) is literally written as:

                  "for child he-is-born to-us son he-is-given to-us and-she-will- be
                  the-government on shoulder-of- him and-he-will- call name-of-him
                  Wonder-of One-Counseling God-of Might Father-of Everlasting
                  Prince-of Peace" - The NIV Interlinear Hebrew-English Old Testament,
                  Vol. 4, Zondervan Publ., 1985.

                  --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos <iul41@...>
                  wrote:

                  >
                  > Thank's again. It looks like a pharaphase.. .
                  > Well, a last question in this
                  subject. In jewish common Torah, how is
                  Is. 9:6?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message ----
                  > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                  > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                  > Sent: Monday, July 7, 2008 2:29:47 AM
                  > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                  >
                  >
                  > This is all I've found:
                  > Is. 9:6
                  > "So what is in this person's name. I submit that all of the terms but
                  the last one "Sar Shalom" are not part of the person's name but are
                  descriptions of G-d himself. for evidence I give the Aramaic targum of
                  Yonatan to Isaiah to clarify the misconception of the person's name:
                  >
                  >
                  Targum Yonatan:
                  > àÇîÇø ðÀáÄéÈà ìÀáÅéú ãÈåÄã àÂøÅé øÈáÅé
                  àÄéúÀéÀìÄéã ìÈðÈà áÌÇø àÄúÀéÀäÇá ìÈðÈà åÀ÷ÇáÌÅì
                  àåÉøÇéÀúÈà òÂìåÉäÄé ìÀîÇèÀøÈäÌ åÀàÄúÀ÷ÀøÅé ùÀîÅéäÌ îÄï
                  ÷ÇãÈí îÇôÀìÄéà òÅöÈä àÃìÈäÈà ðÄáÌÈøÈà ÷ÇéÈí
                  ìÀòÇìÀîÇéÈà îÀùÄéçÈà ãÄùÀìÈîÈà éÇñÀâÅé òÂìÈðÈà
                  áÌÀéåÉîåÉäÄé
                  >
                  > "Translation:
                  >
                  > "The Prophet said to the House of David, For a Child is born to us, to
                  us a son is given; and he will accept the Torah upon himself to observe
                  it, and his name shall be called before the Wonderful Counselor, the
                  Mighty G-d, who exists forever, "The anointed one in who's days peace
                  will increase upon us."
                  >
                  > "From the Targum we can tell that the terms "Pele yo'etz (
                  ôÌÆìÆà
                  éÌåÉòÅõ )," "El gibbor ( àÅì âÌÄáÌåÉø )," "Avi-Ad (
                  àÂáÄé-òÇã )" were never meant to be human attributes but that of
                  G-d's himself. the only thing that was left to the child mentioned was
                  "Sar-Shalom ( ùÇø-ùÈìåÉí )" rendered correctly as "Peaceful
                  Ruler." The Targum calls this person "the anointed one in who's days
                  peace will increase upon us." the Targum makes a careful play on the
                  words "Sar-Shalom" trying to place it as a future King who will bring
                  peace in his days." - http://jewishcounte rmissionary. blogspot. com/
                  >
                  > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos iul41@
                  wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Thank's a lot brother, this is a great resource.
                  > > Another question> How is translated Isaiah 9:6 in old Aramaic
                  Targums?
                  > > Thank's a lot
                  > >
                  John
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message ----
                  > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                  > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                  > > Sent: Sunday, July 6, 2008 3:35:17 AM
                  > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > It appears that the oldest existing manuscripts of the Septuagint
                  which include Isaiah 9:6 are the 4th century AD Codex Vaticanus and
                  Codex Sinaiticus.
                  > > They both render Is. 9:6 as:
                  > > "For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose
                  government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger
                  [or 'Angel' - aggelos] of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the
                  princes, and health to him."
                  > > Codex Alexandrinus of the 5th century, however, translates Is. 9:6
                  as found in our English Bibles.
                  > > ............ ......... ......... .......
                  > >
                  > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos
                  iul41@ wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Another question, please.
                  > > > I want to know if exist an ancient copy of Septuaginta, BC, and
                  how is translated there Isaiah 9:6
                  > > > Thank's a lot.
                  > > > John
                  >


                • teddy_trueblood
                  Whether translated by Judaists, trinitarians, or non-trinitarians, the literal word-for-word rendering of the Hebrew text in the interlinear version provided
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jul 8, 2008

                    Whether translated by Judaists, trinitarians, or non-trinitarians, the literal word-for-word rendering of the Hebrew text in the interlinear version provided earlier is essentially the same.

                    When it is rendered into English in a more readable form, there must be some interpretation to make it understandable to modern English speakers.  So, although others would render the word-for-word literal translation of the Masoretic text here essentially the same as has already been provided, their translating it into a Bible will reflect their own interpretations.

                    Here, then are the only two translations I have by the Jewish Publication Society (JPS):

                    "Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace."- footnote in the 1917 Margolis edition of The Holy Scriptures.

                    And,

                    "The Mighty God is planning grace,

                    "The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler" - Tanakh, JPS, 1985.


                    --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, takacs ianos <iul41@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > OK. Yes. This is not in Torah.
                    > The NIV International Hebrew English text is translated by christians?
                    > If yes, could you give me a judaist translation, please?
                    > Thank's again
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message ----
                    > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroups.com
                    > To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Monday, July 7, 2008 10:07:09 PM
                    > Subject: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Request
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > As usually understood, the Torah is the first five books of the OT (the
                    > writings of Moses). So Is. 9:6 would not be included in the Torah.
                    > However, the OT also includes much more as found in the Masoretic Text.
                    > There Is. 9:5 (9:6 in most English Bibles) is literally written as:
                    >
                    > "for child he-is-born to-us son he-is-given to-us and-she-will- be
                    > the-government on shoulder-of- him and-he-will- call name-of-him
                    > Wonder-of One-Counseling God-of Might Father-of Everlasting
                    > Prince-of Peace" - The NIV Interlinear Hebrew-English Old Testament,
                    > Vol. 4, Zondervan Publ., 1985.
                    >
                    > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos iul41@
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Thank's again. It looks like a pharaphase.. .
                    > > Well, a last question in this subject. In jewish common Torah, how is
                    > Is. 9:6?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ----- Original Message ----
                    > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                    > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                    > > Sent: Monday, July 7, 2008 2:29:47 AM
                    > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > This is all I've found:
                    > > Is. 9:6
                    > > "So what is in this person's name. I submit that all of the terms but
                    > the last one "Sar Shalom" are not part of the person's name but are
                    > descriptions of G-d himself. for evidence I give the Aramaic targum of
                    > Yonatan to Isaiah to clarify the misconception of the person's name:
                    > >
                    > > Targum Yonatan:
                    > > àÇîÇø ðÀáÄéÈà ìÀáÅéú ãÈåÄã àÂøÅé øÈáÅé
                    > àÄéúÀéÀìÄéã ìÈðÈà áÌÇø àÄúÀéÀäÇá ìÈðÈà åÀ÷ÇáÌÅì
                    > àåÉøÇéÀúÈà òÂìåÉäÄé ìÀîÇèÀøÈäÌ åÀàÄúÀ÷ÀøÅé ùÀîÅéäÌ îÄï
                    > ÷ÇãÈí îÇôÀìÄéà òÅöÈä àÃìÈäÈà ðÄáÌÈøÈà ÷ÇéÈí
                    > ìÀòÇìÀîÇéÈà îÀùÄéçÈà ãÄùÀìÈîÈà éÇñÀâÅé òÂìÈðÈà
                    > áÌÀéåÉîåÉäÄé
                    > >
                    > > "Translation:
                    > >
                    > > "The Prophet said to the House of David, For a Child is born to us, to
                    > us a son is given; and he will accept the Torah upon himself to observe
                    > it, and his name shall be called before the Wonderful Counselor, the
                    > Mighty G-d, who exists forever, "The anointed one in who's days peace
                    > will increase upon us."
                    > >
                    > > "From the Targum we can tell that the terms "Pele yo'etz ( ôÌÆìÆà
                    > éÌåÉòÅõ )," "El gibbor ( àÅì âÌÄáÌåÉø )," "Avi-Ad (
                    > àÂáÄé-òÇã )" were never meant to be human attributes but that of
                    > G-d's himself. the only thing that was left to the child mentioned was
                    > "Sar-Shalom ( ùÇø-ùÈìåÉí )" rendered correctly as "Peaceful
                    > Ruler." The Targum calls this person "the anointed one in who's days
                    > peace will increase upon us." the Targum makes a careful play on the
                    > words "Sar-Shalom" trying to place it as a future King who will bring
                    > peace in his days." - http://jewishcounte rmissionary. blogspot. com/
                    > >
                    > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos iul41@
                    > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Thank's a lot brother, this is a great resource.
                    > > > Another question> How is translated Isaiah 9:6 in old Aramaic
                    > Targums?
                    > > > Thank's a lot
                    > > > John
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ----- Original Message ----
                    > > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                    > > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                    > > > Sent: Sunday, July 6, 2008 3:35:17 AM
                    > > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > It appears that the oldest existing manuscripts of the Septuagint
                    > which include Isaiah 9:6 are the 4th century AD Codex Vaticanus and
                    > Codex Sinaiticus.
                    > > > They both render Is. 9:6 as:
                    > > > "For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose
                    > government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger
                    > [or 'Angel' - aggelos] of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the
                    > princes, and health to him."
                    > > > Codex Alexandrinus of the 5th century, however, translates Is. 9:6
                    > as found in our English Bibles.
                    > > > ............ ......... ......... .......
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos
                    > iul41@ wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Another question, please.
                    > > > > I want to know if exist an ancient copy of Septuaginta, BC, and
                    > how is translated there Isaiah 9:6
                    > > > > Thank's a lot.
                    > > > > John
                    > >
                    >

                  • takacs ianos
                    Yes, this is clear that is a pharaphase. I see the English translation of The Dead Sea Scroll of Isaiah 9:6. This is the same like in our modern Bibles. But I
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jul 9, 2008
                      Yes, this is clear that is a pharaphase. I see the English translation of The Dead Sea Scroll of Isaiah 9:6. This is the same like in our modern Bibles.
                      But I chek the word, and I find that there is "El Gibbor" for Mighty God. I have a new question. I ask if Mighty is Gibbor in Hebrew, becouse I understand Gibbor is not Mighty. Gibbor mean Hero, like in Genesis 6:4 part b? Or I am wrong?
                      In other places I find that the word El is translated with Mighty in Ezekiel 32:21.
                      Now it is a big problem> Gibbor don't could be mighty, if El is mighty, or El don't could be mighty if Gibbor is mighty.
                      What is the truth?
                      I have a theory. It is possible that the El Gibbor means Mighty Hero.
                      Please chek if the Mighty God is El Gibbor in the Isaiah 10:21.
                      Thank's a lot.
                      John

                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: teddy_trueblood <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                      To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, July 8, 2008 11:33:07 PM
                      Subject: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Request

                      Whether translated by Judaists, trinitarians, or non-trinitarians, the literal word-for-word rendering of the Hebrew text in the interlinear version provided earlier is essentially the same.

                      When it is rendered into English in a more readable form, there must be some interpretation to make it understandable to modern English speakers.  So, although others would render the word-for-word literal translation of the Masoretic text here essentially the same as has already been provided, their translating it into a Bible will reflect their own interpretations.

                      Here, then are the only two translations I have by the Jewish Publication Society (JPS):

                      "Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace."- footnote in the 1917 Margolis edition of The Holy Scriptures.

                      And,

                      "The Mighty God is planning grace,

                      "The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler" - Tanakh, JPS, 1985.


                      --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos <iul41@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > OK. Yes. This is not in Torah.
                      > The NIV International Hebrew English text is translated by christians?
                      > If yes, could you give me a judaist translation, please?
                      > Thank's again
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message ----
                      > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                      > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                      > Sent: Monday, July 7, 2008 10:07:09 PM
                      > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > As usually understood, the Torah is the first five books of the OT (the
                      > writings of Moses). So Is. 9:6 would not be included in the Torah.
                      > However, the OT also includes much more as found in the Masoretic Text.
                      > There Is. 9:5 (9:6 in most English Bibles) is literally written as:
                      >
                      > "for child he-is-born to-us son he-is-given to-us and-she-will- be
                      > the-government on shoulder-of- him and-he-will- call name-of-him
                      > Wonder-of One-Counseling God-of Might Father-of Everlasting
                      > Prince-of Peace" - The NIV Interlinear Hebrew-English Old Testament,
                      > Vol. 4, Zondervan Publ., 1985.
                      >
                      > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos iul41@
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Thank's again. It looks like a pharaphase.. .
                      > > Well, a last question in this subject. In jewish common Torah, how is
                      > Is. 9:6?
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ----- Original Message ----
                      > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                      > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                      > > Sent: Monday, July 7, 2008 2:29:47 AM
                      > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > This is all I've found:
                      > > Is. 9:6
                      > > "So what is in this person's name. I submit that all of the terms but
                      > the last one "Sar Shalom" are not part of the person's name but are
                      > descriptions of G-d himself. for evidence I give the Aramaic targum of
                      > Yonatan to Isaiah to clarify the misconception of the person's name:
                      > >
                      > > Targum Yonatan:
                      > > àÇîÇø ðÀáÄéÈà ìÀáÅéú ãÈåÄã àÂøÅé øÈáÅé
                      > àÄéúÀéÀìÄéã ìÈðÈà áÌÇø àÄúÀéÀäÇá ìÈðÈà åÀ÷ÇáÌÅì
                      > àåÉøÇéÀúÈà òÂìåÉäÄé ìÀîÇèÀøÈäÌ åÀàÄúÀ÷ÀøÅé ùÀîÅéäÌ îÄï
                      > ÷ÇãÈí îÇôÀìÄéà òÅöÈä àÃìÈäÈà ðÄáÌÈøÈà ÷ÇéÈí
                      > ìÀòÇìÀîÇéÈà îÀùÄéçÈà ãÄùÀìÈîÈà éÇñÀâÅé òÂìÈðÈà
                      > áÌÀéåÉîåÉäÄé
                      > >
                      > > "Translation:
                      > >
                      > > "The Prophet said to the House of David, For a Child is born to us, to
                      > us a son is given; and he will accept the Torah upon himself to observe
                      > it, and his name shall be called before the Wonderful Counselor, the
                      > Mighty G-d, who exists forever, "The anointed one in who's days peace
                      > will increase upon us."
                      > >
                      > > "From the Targum we can tell that the terms "Pele yo'etz ( ôÌÆìÆà
                      > éÌåÉòÅõ )," "El gibbor ( àÅì âÌÄáÌåÉø )," "Avi-Ad (
                      > àÂáÄé-òÇã )" were never meant to be human attributes but that of
                      > G-d's himself. the only thing that was left to the child mentioned was
                      > "Sar-Shalom ( ùÇø-ùÈìåÉí )" rendered correctly as "Peaceful
                      > Ruler." The Targum calls this person "the anointed one in who's days
                      > peace will increase upon us." the Targum makes a careful play on the
                      > words "Sar-Shalom" trying to place it as a future King who will bring
                      > peace in his days." - http://jewishcounte rmissionary. blogspot. com/
                      > >
                      > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos iul41@
                      > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Thank's a lot brother, this is a great resource.
                      > > > Another question> How is translated Isaiah 9:6 in old Aramaic
                      > Targums?
                      > > > Thank's a lot
                      > > > John
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > ----- Original Message ----
                      > > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                      > > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                      > > > Sent: Sunday, July 6, 2008 3:35:17 AM
                      > > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > It appears that the oldest existing manuscripts of the Septuagint
                      > which include Isaiah 9:6 are the 4th century AD Codex Vaticanus and
                      > Codex Sinaiticus.
                      > > > They both render Is. 9:6 as:
                      > > > "For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose
                      > government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger
                      > [or 'Angel' - aggelos] of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the
                      > princes, and health to him."
                      > > > Codex Alexandrinus of the 5th century, however, translates Is. 9:6
                      > as found in our English Bibles.
                      > > > ............ ......... ......... .......
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos
                      > iul41@ wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Another question, please.
                      > > > > I want to know if exist an ancient copy of Septuaginta, BC, and
                      > how is translated there Isaiah 9:6
                      > > > > Thank's a lot.
                      > > > > John
                      > >
                      >


                    • teddy_trueblood
                      Yes, some Bibles have translated El Gibbor as Mighty Hero, Divine Hero, etc. For much more about this famous scripture see pages 2-4 in the following
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jul 9, 2008

                         

                        Yes, some Bibles have translated 'El Gibbor' as "Mighty Hero," "Divine Hero," etc.  For much more about this famous scripture see pages 2-4 in the following file:

                        http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/wBh1SKDJN2MFd6O23C1u-ZQH4pHUlw4fQir1FsrLaWqcVJVid4PYchRJNvSClFJqoMv-jAJoVLZ6B4rSDBz1aQ/Trinity/NAME.rtf


                        --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, takacs ianos <iul41@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Yes, this is clear that is a pharaphase. I see the English translation of The Dead Sea Scroll of Isaiah 9:6. This is the same like in our modern Bibles.
                        > But I chek the word, and I find that there is "El Gibbor" for Mighty God. I have a new question. I ask if Mighty is Gibbor in Hebrew, becouse I understand Gibbor is not Mighty. Gibbor mean Hero, like in Genesis 6:4 part b? Or I am wrong?
                        > In other places I find that the word El is translated with Mighty in Ezekiel 32:21.
                        > Now it is a big problem> Gibbor don't could be mighty, if El is mighty, or El don't could be mighty if Gibbor is mighty.
                        > What is the truth?
                        > I have a theory. It is possible that the El Gibbor means Mighty Hero.
                        > Please chek if the Mighty God is El Gibbor in the Isaiah 10:21.
                        > Thank's a lot.
                        > John
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message ----
                        > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroups.com
                        > To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Tuesday, July 8, 2008 11:33:07 PM
                        > Subject: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Request
                        >
                        >
                        > Whether translated by Judaists, trinitarians, or non-trinitarians, the literal word-for-word rendering of the Hebrew text in the interlinear version provided earlier is essentially the same.
                        > When it is rendered into English in a more readable form, there must be some interpretation to make it understandable to modern English speakers.  So, although others would render the word-for-word literal translation of the Masoretic text here essentially the same as has already been provided, their translating it into a Bible will reflect their own interpretations.
                        > Here, then are the only two translations I have by the Jewish Publication Society (JPS):
                        > "Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace."- footnote in the 1917 Margolis edition of The Holy Scriptures.
                        > And,
                        > "The Mighty God is planning grace,
                        > "The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler" - Tanakh, JPS, 1985.
                        >
                        > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos iul41@ wrote:
                        > >
                        > > OK. Yes. This is not in Torah.
                        > > The NIV International Hebrew English text is translated by christians?
                        > > If yes, could you give me a judaist translation, please?
                        > > Thank's again
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ----- Original Message ----
                        > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                        > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                        > > Sent: Monday, July 7, 2008 10:07:09 PM
                        > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > As usually understood, the Torah is the first five books of the OT (the
                        > > writings of Moses). So Is. 9:6 would not be included in the Torah.
                        > > However, the OT also includes much more as found in the Masoretic Text.
                        > > There Is. 9:5 (9:6 in most English Bibles) is literally written as:
                        > >
                        > > "for child he-is-born to-us son he-is-given to-us and-she-will- be
                        > > the-government on shoulder-of- him and-he-will- call name-of-him
                        > > Wonder-of One-Counseling God-of Might Father-of Everlasting
                        > > Prince-of Peace" - The NIV Interlinear Hebrew-English Old Testament,
                        > > Vol. 4, Zondervan Publ., 1985.
                        > >
                        > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos iul41@
                        > > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Thank's again. It looks like a pharaphase.. .
                        > > > Well, a last question in this subject. In jewish common Torah, how is
                        > > Is. 9:6?
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > ----- Original Message ----
                        > > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                        > > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                        > > > Sent: Monday, July 7, 2008 2:29:47 AM
                        > > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > This is all I've found:
                        > > > Is. 9:6
                        > > > "So what is in this person's name. I submit that all of the terms but
                        > > the last one "Sar Shalom" are not part of the person's name but are
                        > > descriptions of G-d himself. for evidence I give the Aramaic targum of
                        > > Yonatan to Isaiah to clarify the misconception of the person's name:
                        > > >
                        > > > Targum Yonatan:
                        > > > àÇîÇø ðÀáÄéÈà ìÀáÅéú ãÈåÄã àÂøÅé øÈáÅé
                        > > àÄéúÀéÀìÄéã ìÈðÈà áÌÇø àÄúÀéÀäÇá ìÈðÈà åÀ÷ÇáÌÅì
                        > > àåÉøÇéÀúÈà òÂìåÉäÄé ìÀîÇèÀøÈäÌ åÀàÄúÀ÷ÀøÅé ùÀîÅéäÌ îÄï
                        > > ÷ÇãÈí îÇôÀìÄéà òÅöÈä àÃìÈäÈà ðÄáÌÈøÈà ÷ÇéÈí
                        > > ìÀòÇìÀîÇéÈà îÀùÄéçÈà ãÄùÀìÈîÈà éÇñÀâÅé òÂìÈðÈà
                        > > áÌÀéåÉîåÉäÄé
                        > > >
                        > > > "Translation:
                        > > >
                        > > > "The Prophet said to the House of David, For a Child is born to us, to
                        > > us a son is given; and he will accept the Torah upon himself to observe
                        > > it, and his name shall be called before the Wonderful Counselor, the
                        > > Mighty G-d, who exists forever, "The anointed one in who's days peace
                        > > will increase upon us."
                        > > >
                        > > > "From the Targum we can tell that the terms "Pele yo'etz ( ôÌÆìÆà
                        > > éÌåÉòÅõ )," "El gibbor ( àÅì âÌÄáÌåÉø )," "Avi-Ad (
                        > > àÂáÄé-òÇã )" were never meant to be human attributes but that of
                        > > G-d's himself. the only thing that was left to the child mentioned was
                        > > "Sar-Shalom ( ùÇø-ùÈìåÉí )" rendered correctly as "Peaceful
                        > > Ruler." The Targum calls this person "the anointed one in who's days
                        > > peace will increase upon us." the Targum makes a careful play on the
                        > > words "Sar-Shalom" trying to place it as a future King who will bring
                        > > peace in his days." - http://jewishcounte rmissionary. blogspot. com/
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos iul41@
                        > > wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Thank's a lot brother, this is a great resource.
                        > > > > Another question> How is translated Isaiah 9:6 in old Aramaic
                        > > Targums?
                        > > > > Thank's a lot
                        > > > > John
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > ----- Original Message ----
                        > > > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                        > > > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                        > > > > Sent: Sunday, July 6, 2008 3:35:17 AM
                        > > > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > It appears that the oldest existing manuscripts of the Septuagint
                        > > which include Isaiah 9:6 are the 4th century AD Codex Vaticanus and
                        > > Codex Sinaiticus.
                        > > > > They both render Is. 9:6 as:
                        > > > > "For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose
                        > > government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger
                        > > [or 'Angel' - aggelos] of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the
                        > > princes, and health to him."
                        > > > > Codex Alexandrinus of the 5th century, however, translates Is. 9:6
                        > > as found in our English Bibles.
                        > > > > ............ ......... ......... .......
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos
                        > > iul41@ wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Another question, please.
                        > > > > > I want to know if exist an ancient copy of Septuaginta, BC, and
                        > > how is translated there Isaiah 9:6
                        > > > > > Thank's a lot.
                        > > > > > John
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >

                      • teddy_trueblood
                        I forgot to answer your last question. Yes, el gibbor is found at Isaiah 10:21. ...
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jul 9, 2008

                          I forgot to answer your last question.  Yes, 'el gibbor' is found at Isaiah 10:21.


                          --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, teddy_trueblood <no_reply@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yes, some Bibles have translated 'El Gibbor' as "Mighty Hero," "Divine
                          > Hero," etc. For much more about this famous scripture see pages 2-4 in
                          > the following file:
                          >
                          > http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/wBh1SKDJN2MFd6O23C1u-ZQH4pHUlw4fQir1FsrLaWq\
                          > cVJVid4PYchRJNvSClFJqoMv-jAJoVLZ6B4rSDBz1aQ/Trinity/NAME.rtf
                          > <http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/wBh1SKDJN2MFd6O23C1u-ZQH4pHUlw4fQir1FsrLaW\
                          > qcVJVid4PYchRJNvSClFJqoMv-jAJoVLZ6B4rSDBz1aQ/Trinity/NAME.rtf>
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, takacs ianos iul41@
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Yes, this is clear that is a pharaphase. I see the English translation
                          > of The Dead Sea Scroll of Isaiah 9:6. This is the same like in our
                          > modern Bibles.
                          > > But I chek the word, and I find that there is "El Gibbor" for Mighty
                          > God. I have a new question. I ask if Mighty is Gibbor in Hebrew, becouse
                          > I understand Gibbor is not Mighty. Gibbor mean Hero, like in Genesis 6:4
                          > part b? Or I am wrong?
                          > > In other places I find that the word El is translated with Mighty in
                          > Ezekiel 32:21.
                          > > Now it is a big problem> Gibbor don't could be mighty, if El is
                          > mighty, or El don't could be mighty if Gibbor is mighty.
                          > > What is the truth?
                          > > I have a theory. It is possible that the El Gibbor means Mighty Hero.
                          > > Please chek if the Mighty God is El Gibbor in the Isaiah 10:21.
                          > > Thank's a lot.
                          > > John
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ----- Original Message ----
                          > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroups.com
                          > > To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Sent: Tuesday, July 8, 2008 11:33:07 PM
                          > > Subject: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Request
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Whether translated by Judaists, trinitarians, or non-trinitarians, the
                          > literal word-for-word rendering of the Hebrew text in the interlinear
                          > version provided earlier is essentially the same.
                          > > When it is rendered into English in a more readable form, there must
                          > be some interpretation to make it understandable to modern English
                          > speakers. So, although others would render the word-for-word literal
                          > translation of the Masoretic text here essentially the same as has
                          > already been provided, their translating it into a Bible will reflect
                          > their own interpretations.
                          > > Here, then are the only two translations I have by the Jewish
                          > Publication Society (JPS):
                          > > "Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the
                          > Ruler of peace."- footnote in the 1917 Margolis edition of The Holy
                          > Scriptures.
                          > > And,
                          > > "The Mighty God is planning grace,
                          > > "The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler" - Tanakh, JPS, 1985.
                          > >
                          > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos iul41@
                          > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > OK. Yes. This is not in Torah.
                          > > > The NIV International Hebrew English text is translated by
                          > christians?
                          > > > If yes, could you give me a judaist translation, please?
                          > > > Thank's again
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > ----- Original Message ----
                          > > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                          > > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                          > > > Sent: Monday, July 7, 2008 10:07:09 PM
                          > > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > As usually understood, the Torah is the first five books of the OT
                          > (the
                          > > > writings of Moses). So Is. 9:6 would not be included in the Torah.
                          > > > However, the OT also includes much more as found in the Masoretic
                          > Text.
                          > > > There Is. 9:5 (9:6 in most English Bibles) is literally written as:
                          > > >
                          > > > "for child he-is-born to-us son he-is-given to-us and-she-will- be
                          > > > the-government on shoulder-of- him and-he-will- call name-of-him
                          > > > Wonder-of One-Counseling God-of Might Father-of Everlasting
                          > > > Prince-of Peace" - The NIV Interlinear Hebrew-English Old Testament,
                          > > > Vol. 4, Zondervan Publ., 1985.
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos
                          > iul41@
                          > > > wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Thank's again. It looks like a pharaphase.. .
                          > > > > Well, a last question in this subject. In jewish common Torah, how
                          > is
                          > > > Is. 9:6?
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > ----- Original Message ----
                          > > > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                          > > > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                          > > > > Sent: Monday, July 7, 2008 2:29:47 AM
                          > > > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > This is all I've found:
                          > > > > Is. 9:6
                          > > > > "So what is in this person's name. I submit that all of the terms
                          > but
                          > > > the last one "Sar Shalom" are not part of the person's name but are
                          > > > descriptions of G-d himself. for evidence I give the Aramaic targum
                          > of
                          > > > Yonatan to Isaiah to clarify the misconception of the person's name:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Targum Yonatan:
                          > > > > àÇîÇø ðÀáÄéÈà ìÀáÅéú ãÈåÄã àÂøÅé øÈáÅé
                          > > > àÄéúÀéÀìÄéã ìÈðÈà áÌÇø àÄúÀéÀäÇá ìÈðÈà åÀ÷ÇáÌÅì
                          > > > àåÉøÇéÀúÈà òÂìåÉäÄé ìÀîÇèÀøÈäÌ åÀàÄúÀ÷ÀøÅé ùÀîÅéäÌ
                          > îÄï
                          > > > ÷ÇãÈí îÇôÀìÄéà òÅöÈä àÃìÈäÈà ðÄáÌÈøÈà ÷ÇéÈí
                          > > > ìÀòÇìÀîÇéÈà îÀùÄéçÈà ãÄùÀìÈîÈà éÇñÀâÅé òÂìÈðÈà
                          > > > áÌÀéåÉîåÉäÄé
                          > > > >
                          > > > > "Translation:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > "The Prophet said to the House of David, For a Child is born to
                          > us, to
                          > > > us a son is given; and he will accept the Torah upon himself to
                          > observe
                          > > > it, and his name shall be called before the Wonderful Counselor, the
                          > > > Mighty G-d, who exists forever, "The anointed one in who's days
                          > peace
                          > > > will increase upon us."
                          > > > >
                          > > > > "From the Targum we can tell that the terms "Pele yo'etz (
                          > ôÌÆìÆà
                          > > > éÌåÉòÅõ )," "El gibbor ( àÅì âÌÄáÌåÉø )," "Avi-Ad (
                          > > > àÂáÄé-òÇã )" were never meant to be human attributes but that
                          > of
                          > > > G-d's himself. the only thing that was left to the child mentioned
                          > was
                          > > > "Sar-Shalom ( ùÇø-ùÈìåÉí )" rendered correctly as "Peaceful
                          > > > Ruler." The Targum calls this person "the anointed one in who's days
                          > > > peace will increase upon us." the Targum makes a careful play on the
                          > > > words "Sar-Shalom" trying to place it as a future King who will
                          > bring
                          > > > peace in his days." - http://jewishcounte rmissionary. blogspot.
                          > com/
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos
                          > iul41@
                          > > > wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Thank's a lot brother, this is a great resource.
                          > > > > > Another question> How is translated Isaiah 9:6 in old Aramaic
                          > > > Targums?
                          > > > > > Thank's a lot
                          > > > > > John
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > ----- Original Message ----
                          > > > > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                          > > > > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                          > > > > > Sent: Sunday, July 6, 2008 3:35:17 AM
                          > > > > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > It appears that the oldest existing manuscripts of the
                          > Septuagint
                          > > > which include Isaiah 9:6 are the 4th century AD Codex Vaticanus and
                          > > > Codex Sinaiticus.
                          > > > > > They both render Is. 9:6 as:
                          > > > > > "For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose
                          > > > government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the
                          > Messenger
                          > > > [or 'Angel' - aggelos] of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon
                          > the
                          > > > princes, and health to him."
                          > > > > > Codex Alexandrinus of the 5th century, however, translates Is.
                          > 9:6
                          > > > as found in our English Bibles.
                          > > > > > ............ ......... ......... .......
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos
                          > > > iul41@ wrote:
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Another question, please.
                          > > > > > > I want to know if exist an ancient copy of Septuaginta, BC,
                          > and
                          > > > how is translated there Isaiah 9:6
                          > > > > > > Thank's a lot.
                          > > > > > > John
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >

                        • takacs ianos
                          It is amazing, but unfortunately I don t could opened this. Why? Please copy paste that information here. Thank s a lot ... From: teddy_trueblood
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jul 10, 2008
                            It is amazing, but unfortunately I don't could opened this. Why?
                            Please copy paste that information here.
                            Thank's a lot

                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: teddy_trueblood <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                            To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Wednesday, July 9, 2008 11:19:36 PM
                            Subject: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Request

                             

                            Yes, some Bibles have translated 'El Gibbor' as "Mighty Hero," "Divine Hero," etc.  For much more about this famous scripture see pages 2-4 in the following file:

                            http://f1.grp. yahoofs.com/ v1/wBh1SKDJN2MFd 6O23C1u-ZQH4pHUl w4fQir1FsrLaWqcV JVid4PYchRJNvSCl FJqoMv-jAJoVLZ6B 4rSDBz1aQ/ Trinity/NAME. rtf


                            --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos <iul41@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Yes, this is clear that is a pharaphase. I see the English translation of The Dead Sea Scroll of Isaiah 9:6. This is the same like in our modern Bibles.
                            > But I chek the word, and I find that there is "El Gibbor" for Mighty God. I have a new question. I ask if Mighty is Gibbor in Hebrew, becouse I understand Gibbor is not Mighty. Gibbor mean Hero, like in Genesis 6:4 part b? Or I am wrong?
                            > In other places I find that the word El is translated with Mighty in Ezekiel 32:21.
                            > Now it is a big problem> Gibbor don't could be mighty, if El is mighty, or El don't could be mighty if Gibbor is mighty.
                            > What is the truth?
                            > I have a theory. It is possible that the El Gibbor means Mighty Hero.
                            > Please chek if the Mighty God is El Gibbor in the Isaiah 10:21.
                            > Thank's a lot.
                            > John
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message ----
                            > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                            > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                            > Sent: Tuesday, July 8, 2008 11:33:07 PM
                            > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                            >
                            >
                            > Whether translated by Judaists, trinitarians, or non-trinitarians, the literal word-for-word rendering of the Hebrew text in the interlinear version provided earlier is essentially the same.
                            > When it is rendered into English in a more readable form, there must be some interpretation to make it understandable to modern English speakers.  So, although others would render the word-for-word literal translation of the Masoretic text here essentially the same as has already been provided, their translating it into a Bible will reflect their own interpretations.
                            > Here, then are the only two translations I have by the Jewish Publication Society (JPS):
                            > "Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace."- footnote in the 1917 Margolis edition of The Holy Scriptures.
                            > And,
                            > "The Mighty God is planning grace,
                            > "The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler" - Tanakh, JPS, 1985.
                            >
                            > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos iul41@ wrote:
                            > >
                            > > OK. Yes. This is not in Torah.
                            > > The NIV International Hebrew English text is translated by christians?
                            > > If yes, could you give me a judaist translation, please?
                            > > Thank's again
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ----- Original Message ----
                            > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                            > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                            > > Sent: Monday, July 7, 2008 10:07:09 PM
                            > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > As usually understood, the Torah is the first five books of the OT (the
                            > > writings of Moses). So Is. 9:6 would not be included in the Torah.
                            > > However, the OT also includes much more as found in the Masoretic Text.
                            > > There Is. 9:5 (9:6 in most English Bibles) is literally written as:
                            > >
                            > > "for child he-is-born to-us son he-is-given to-us and-she-will- be
                            > > the-government on shoulder-of- him and-he-will- call name-of-him
                            > > Wonder-of One-Counseling God-of Might Father-of Everlasting
                            > > Prince-of Peace" - The NIV Interlinear Hebrew-English Old Testament,
                            > > Vol. 4, Zondervan Publ., 1985.
                            > >
                            > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos iul41@
                            > > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Thank's again. It looks like a pharaphase.. .
                            > > > Well, a last question in this subject. In jewish common Torah, how is
                            > > Is. 9:6?
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > ----- Original Message ----
                            > > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                            > > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                            > > > Sent: Monday, July 7, 2008 2:29:47 AM
                            > > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > This is all I've found:
                            > > > Is. 9:6
                            > > > "So what is in this person's name. I submit that all of the terms but
                            > > the last one "Sar Shalom" are not part of the person's name but are
                            > > descriptions of G-d himself. for evidence I give the Aramaic targum of
                            > > Yonatan to Isaiah to clarify the misconception of the person's name:
                            > > >
                            > > > Targum Yonatan:
                            > > > àÇîÇø ðÀáÄéÈà ìÀáÅéú ãÈåÄã àÂøÅé øÈáÅé
                            > > àÄéúÀéÀìÄéã ìÈðÈà áÌÇø àÄúÀéÀäÇá ìÈðÈà åÀ÷ÇáÌÅì
                            > > àåÉøÇéÀúÈà òÂìåÉäÄé ìÀîÇèÀøÈäÌ åÀàÄúÀ÷ÀøÅé ùÀîÅéäÌ îÄï
                            > > ÷ÇãÈí îÇôÀìÄéà òÅöÈä àÃìÈäÈà ðÄáÌÈøÈà ÷ÇéÈí
                            > > ìÀòÇìÀîÇéÈà îÀùÄéçÈà ãÄùÀìÈîÈà éÇñÀâÅé òÂìÈðÈà
                            > > áÌÀéåÉîåÉäÄé
                            > > >
                            > > > "Translation:
                            > > >
                            > > > "The Prophet said to the House of David, For a Child is born to us, to
                            > > us a son is given; and he will accept the Torah upon himself to observe
                            > > it, and his name shall be called before the Wonderful Counselor, the
                            > > Mighty G-d, who exists forever, "The anointed one in who's days peace
                            > > will increase upon us."
                            > > >
                            > > > "From the Targum we can tell that the terms "Pele yo'etz ( ôÌÆìÆà
                            > > éÌåÉòÅõ )," "El gibbor ( àÅì âÌÄáÌåÉø )," "Avi-Ad (
                            > > àÂáÄé-òÇã )" were never meant to be human attributes but that of
                            > > G-d's himself. the only thing that was left to the child mentioned was
                            > > "Sar-Shalom ( ùÇø-ùÈìåÉí )" rendered correctly as "Peaceful
                            > > Ruler." The Targum calls this person "the anointed one in who's days
                            > > peace will increase upon us." the Targum makes a careful play on the
                            > > words "Sar-Shalom" trying to place it as a future King who will bring
                            > > peace in his days." - http://jewishcounte rmissionary. blogspot. com/
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos iul41@
                            > > wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Thank's a lot brother, this is a great resource.
                            > > > > Another question> How is translated Isaiah 9:6 in old Aramaic
                            > > Targums?
                            > > > > Thank's a lot
                            > > > > John
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > ----- Original Message ----
                            > > > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                            > > > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                            > > > > Sent: Sunday, July 6, 2008 3:35:17 AM
                            > > > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > It appears that the oldest existing manuscripts of the Septuagint
                            > > which include Isaiah 9:6 are the 4th century AD Codex Vaticanus and
                            > > Codex Sinaiticus.
                            > > > > They both render Is. 9:6 as:
                            > > > > "For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose
                            > > government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger
                            > > [or 'Angel' - aggelos] of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the
                            > > princes, and health to him."
                            > > > > Codex Alexandrinus of the 5th century, however, translates Is. 9:6
                            > > as found in our English Bibles.
                            > > > > ............ ......... ......... .......
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos
                            > > iul41@ wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Another question, please.
                            > > > > > I want to know if exist an ancient copy of Septuaginta, BC, and
                            > > how is translated there Isaiah 9:6
                            > > > > > Thank's a lot.
                            > > > > > John
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >


                          • takacs ianos
                            Thank s. Exist El Gibbor in other places too? ... From: teddy_trueblood To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday,
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jul 10, 2008
                              Thank's. Exist El Gibbor in other places too?


                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: teddy_trueblood <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                              To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 12:00:11 AM
                              Subject: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Request

                              I forgot to answer your last question.  Yes, 'el gibbor' is found at Isaiah 10:21.


                              --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, teddy_trueblood <no_reply@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Yes, some Bibles have translated 'El Gibbor' as "Mighty Hero," "Divine
                              > Hero," etc. For much more about this famous scripture see pages 2-4 in
                              > the following file:
                              >
                              > http://f1.grp. yahoofs.com/ v1/wBh1SKDJN2MFd 6O23C1u-ZQH4pHUl w4fQir1FsrLaWq\
                              > cVJVid4PYchRJNvSClF JqoMv-jAJoVLZ6B4 rSDBz1aQ/ Trinity/NAME. rtf
                              > <http://f1.grp. yahoofs.com/ v1/wBh1SKDJN2MFd 6O23C1u-ZQH4pHUl w4fQir1FsrLaW\
                              > qcVJVid4PYchRJNvSCl FJqoMv-jAJoVLZ6B 4rSDBz1aQ/ Trinity/NAME. rtf>
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos iul41@
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Yes, this is clear that is a pharaphase. I see the English translation
                              > of The Dead Sea Scroll of Isaiah 9:6. This is the same like in our
                              > modern Bibles.
                              > > But I chek the word, and I find that there is "El Gibbor" for Mighty
                              > God. I have a new question. I ask if Mighty is Gibbor in Hebrew, becouse
                              > I understand Gibbor is not Mighty. Gibbor mean Hero, like in Genesis 6:4
                              > part b? Or I am wrong?
                              > > In other places I find that the word El is translated with Mighty in
                              > Ezekiel 32:21.
                              > > Now it is a big problem> Gibbor don't could be mighty, if El is
                              > mighty, or El don't could be mighty if Gibbor is mighty.
                              > > What is the truth?
                              > > I have a theory. It is possible that the El Gibbor means Mighty Hero.
                              > > Please chek if the Mighty God is El Gibbor in the Isaiah 10:21.
                              > > Thank's a lot.
                              > > John
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ----- Original Message ----
                              > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                              > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                              > > Sent: Tuesday, July 8, 2008 11:33:07 PM
                              > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Whether translated by Judaists, trinitarians, or non-trinitarians, the
                              > literal word-for-word rendering of the Hebrew text in the interlinear
                              > version provided earlier is essentially the same.
                              > > When it is rendered into English in a more readable form, there must
                              > be some interpretation to make it understandable to modern English
                              > speakers. So, although others would render the word-for-word literal
                              > translation of the Masoretic text here essentially the same as has
                              > already been provided, their translating it into a Bible will reflect
                              > their own interpretations.
                              > > Here, then are the only two translations I have by the Jewish
                              > Publication Society (JPS):
                              > > "Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the
                              > Ruler of peace."- footnote in the 1917 Margolis edition of The Holy
                              > Scriptures.
                              > > And,
                              > > "The Mighty God is planning grace,
                              > > "The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler" - Tanakh, JPS, 1985.
                              > >
                              > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos iul41@
                              > wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > OK. Yes. This is not in Torah.
                              > > > The NIV International Hebrew English text is translated by
                              > christians?
                              > > > If yes, could you give me a judaist translation, please?
                              > > > Thank's again
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > ----- Original Message ----
                              > > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                              > > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                              > > > Sent: Monday, July 7, 2008 10:07:09 PM
                              > > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > As usually understood, the Torah is the first five books of the OT
                              > (the
                              > > > writings of Moses). So Is. 9:6 would not be included in the Torah.
                              > > > However, the OT also includes much more as found in the Masoretic
                              > Text.
                              > > > There Is. 9:5 (9:6 in most English Bibles) is literally written as:
                              > > >
                              > > > "for child he-is-born to-us son he-is-given to-us and-she-will- be
                              > > > the-government on shoulder-of- him and-he-will- call name-of-him
                              > > > Wonder-of One-Counseling God-of Might Father-of Everlasting
                              > > > Prince-of Peace" - The NIV Interlinear Hebrew-English Old Testament,
                              > > > Vol. 4, Zondervan Publ., 1985.
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos
                              > iul41@
                              > > > wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Thank's again. It looks like a pharaphase.. .
                              > > > > Well, a last question in this subject. In jewish common Torah, how
                              > is
                              > > > Is. 9:6?
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > ----- Original Message ----
                              > > > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                              > > > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                              > > > > Sent: Monday, July 7, 2008 2:29:47 AM
                              > > > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > This is all I've found:
                              > > > > Is. 9:6
                              > > > > "So what is in this person's name. I submit that all of the terms
                              > but
                              > > > the last one "Sar Shalom" are not part of the person's name but are
                              > > > descriptions of G-d himself. for evidence I give the Aramaic targum
                              > of
                              > > > Yonatan to Isaiah to clarify the misconception of the person's name:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Targum Yonatan:
                              > > > > àÇîÇø ðÀáÄéÈà ìÀáÅéú ãÈåÄã àÂøÅé øÈáÅé
                              > > > àÄéúÀéÀìÄéã ìÈðÈà áÌÇø àÄúÀéÀäÇá ìÈðÈà åÀ÷ÇáÌÅì
                              > > > àåÉøÇéÀúÈà òÂìåÉäÄé ìÀîÇèÀøÈäÌ åÀàÄúÀ÷ÀøÅé ùÀîÅéäÌ
                              > îÄï
                              > > > ÷ÇãÈí îÇôÀìÄéà òÅöÈä àÃìÈäÈà ðÄáÌÈøÈà ÷ÇéÈí
                              > > > ìÀòÇìÀîÇéÈà îÀùÄéçÈà ãÄùÀìÈîÈà éÇñÀâÅé òÂìÈðÈà
                              > > > áÌÀéåÉîåÉäÄé
                              > > > >
                              > > > > "Translation:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > "The Prophet said to the House of David, For a Child is born to
                              > us, to
                              > > > us a son is given; and he will accept the Torah upon himself to
                              > observe
                              > > > it, and his name shall be called before the Wonderful Counselor, the
                              > > > Mighty G-d, who exists forever, "The anointed one in who's days
                              > peace
                              > > > will increase upon us."
                              > > > >
                              > > > > "From the Targum we can tell that the terms "Pele yo'etz (
                              > ôÌÆìÆà
                              > > > éÌåÉòÅõ )," "El gibbor ( àÅì âÌÄáÌåÉø )," "Avi-Ad (
                              > > > àÂáÄé-òÇã )" were never meant to be human attributes but that
                              > of
                              > > > G-d's himself. the only thing that was left to the child mentioned
                              > was
                              > > > "Sar-Shalom ( ùÇø-ùÈìåÉí )" rendered correctly as "Peaceful
                              > > > Ruler." The Targum calls this person "the anointed one in who's days
                              > > > peace will increase upon us." the Targum makes a careful play on the
                              > > > words "Sar-Shalom" trying to place it as a future King who will
                              > bring
                              > > > peace in his days." - http://jewishcounte rmissionary. blogspot.
                              > com/
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos
                              > iul41@
                              > > > wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Thank's a lot brother, this is a great resource.
                              > > > > > Another question> How is translated Isaiah 9:6 in old Aramaic
                              > > > Targums?
                              > > > > > Thank's a lot
                              > > > > > John
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > ----- Original Message ----
                              > > > > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                              > > > > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                              > > > > > Sent: Sunday, July 6, 2008 3:35:17 AM
                              > > > > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > It appears that the oldest existing manuscripts of the
                              > Septuagint
                              > > > which include Isaiah 9:6 are the 4th century AD Codex Vaticanus and
                              > > > Codex Sinaiticus.
                              > > > > > They both render Is. 9:6 as:
                              > > > > > "For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose
                              > > > government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the
                              > Messenger
                              > > > [or 'Angel' - aggelos] of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon
                              > the
                              > > > princes, and health to him."
                              > > > > > Codex Alexandrinus of the 5th century, however, translates Is.
                              > 9:6
                              > > > as found in our English Bibles.
                              > > > > > ............ ......... ......... .......
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos
                              > > > iul41@ wrote:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Another question, please.
                              > > > > > > I want to know if exist an ancient copy of Septuaginta, BC,
                              > and
                              > > > how is translated there Isaiah 9:6
                              > > > > > > Thank's a lot.
                              > > > > > > John
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >


                            • teddy_trueblood
                              I believe those are the only two places where el gibbor occur together. Gibbor is most often used for men and only occasionally for God or angels, whereas
                              Message 14 of 23 , Jul 10, 2008
                                I believe those are the only two places where 'el gibbor' occur
                                together.

                                'Gibbor' is most often used for men and only occasionally for God or
                                angels, whereas 'shaddai' ('Almighty') is used for God many times.


                                --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, takacs ianos <iul41@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Thank's. Exist El Gibbor in other places too?
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message ----
                                > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroups.com
                                > To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 12:00:11 AM
                                > Subject: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Request
                                >
                                >
                                > I forgot to answer your last question. Yes, 'el gibbor' is found at
                                Isaiah 10:21.
                                >
                                > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, teddy_trueblood
                                no_reply@ wrote:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Yes, some Bibles have translated 'El Gibbor' as "Mighty Hero,"
                                "Divine
                                > > Hero," etc. For much more about this famous scripture see pages 2-4
                                in
                                > > the following file:
                                > >
                                > > http://f1.grp. yahoofs.com/ v1/wBh1SKDJN2MFd 6O23C1u-ZQH4pHUl
                                w4fQir1FsrLaWq\
                                > > cVJVid4PYchRJNvSClF JqoMv-jAJoVLZ6B4 rSDBz1aQ/ Trinity/NAME. rtf
                                > > <http://f1.grp. yahoofs.com/ v1/wBh1SKDJN2MFd 6O23C1u-ZQH4pHUl
                                w4fQir1FsrLaW\
                                > > qcVJVid4PYchRJNvSCl FJqoMv-jAJoVLZ6B 4rSDBz1aQ/ Trinity/NAME. rtf>
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos
                                iul41@
                                > > wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Yes, this is clear that is a pharaphase. I see the English
                                translation
                                > > of The Dead Sea Scroll of Isaiah 9:6. This is the same like in our
                                > > modern Bibles.
                                > > > But I chek the word, and I find that there is "El Gibbor" for
                                Mighty
                                > > God. I have a new question. I ask if Mighty is Gibbor in Hebrew,
                                becouse
                                > > I understand Gibbor is not Mighty. Gibbor mean Hero, like in Genesis
                                6:4
                                > > part b? Or I am wrong?
                                > > > In other places I find that the word El is translated with Mighty
                                in
                                > > Ezekiel 32:21.
                                > > > Now it is a big problem> Gibbor don't could be mighty, if El is
                                > > mighty, or El don't could be mighty if Gibbor is mighty.
                                > > > What is the truth?
                                > > > I have a theory. It is possible that the El Gibbor means Mighty
                                Hero.
                                > > > Please chek if the Mighty God is El Gibbor in the Isaiah 10:21.
                                > > > Thank's a lot.
                                > > > John
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > ----- Original Message ----
                                > > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                                > > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                                > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 8, 2008 11:33:07 PM
                                > > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Whether translated by Judaists, trinitarians, or non-trinitarians,
                                the
                                > > literal word-for-word rendering of the Hebrew text in the
                                interlinear
                                > > version provided earlier is essentially the same.
                                > > > When it is rendered into English in a more readable form, there
                                must
                                > > be some interpretation to make it understandable to modern English
                                > > speakers. So, although others would render the word-for-word literal
                                > > translation of the Masoretic text here essentially the same as has
                                > > already been provided, their translating it into a Bible will
                                reflect
                                > > their own interpretations.
                                > > > Here, then are the only two translations I have by the Jewish
                                > > Publication Society (JPS):
                                > > > "Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father,
                                the
                                > > Ruler of peace."- footnote in the 1917 Margolis edition of The Holy
                                > > Scriptures.
                                > > > And,
                                > > > "The Mighty God is planning grace,
                                > > > "The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler" - Tanakh, JPS, 1985.
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos
                                iul41@
                                > > wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > OK. Yes. This is not in Torah.
                                > > > > The NIV International Hebrew English text is translated by
                                > > christians?
                                > > > > If yes, could you give me a judaist translation, please?
                                > > > > Thank's again
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > ----- Original Message ----
                                > > > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                                > > > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                                > > > > Sent: Monday, July 7, 2008 10:07:09 PM
                                > > > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > As usually understood, the Torah is the first five books of the
                                OT
                                > > (the
                                > > > > writings of Moses). So Is. 9:6 would not be included in the
                                Torah.
                                > > > > However, the OT also includes much more as found in the
                                Masoretic
                                > > Text.
                                > > > > There Is. 9:5 (9:6 in most English Bibles) is literally written
                                as:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > "for child he-is-born to-us son he-is-given to-us and-she-will-
                                be
                                > > > > the-government on shoulder-of- him and-he-will- call name-of-him
                                > > > > Wonder-of One-Counseling God-of Might Father-of Everlasting
                                > > > > Prince-of Peace" - The NIV Interlinear Hebrew-English Old
                                Testament,
                                > > > > Vol. 4, Zondervan Publ., 1985.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos
                                > > iul41@
                                > > > > wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Thank's again. It looks like a pharaphase.. .
                                > > > > > Well, a last question in this subject. In jewish common Torah,
                                how
                                > > is
                                > > > > Is. 9:6?
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > ----- Original Message ----
                                > > > > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                                > > > > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                                > > > > > Sent: Monday, July 7, 2008 2:29:47 AM
                                > > > > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > This is all I've found:
                                > > > > > Is. 9:6
                                > > > > > "So what is in this person's name. I submit that all of the
                                terms
                                > > but
                                > > > > the last one "Sar Shalom" are not part of the person's name but
                                are
                                > > > > descriptions of G-d himself. for evidence I give the Aramaic
                                targum
                                > > of
                                > > > > Yonatan to Isaiah to clarify the misconception of the person's
                                name:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Targum Yonatan:
                                > > > > > àÇîÇø ðÀáÄéÈà ìÀáÅéú ãÈåÄã àÂøÅé øÈáÅé
                                > > > > àÄéúÀéÀìÄéã ìÈðÈà áÌÇø àÄúÀéÀäÇá ìÈðÈà
                                åÀ÷ÇáÌÅì
                                > > > > àåÉøÇéÀúÈà òÂìåÉäÄé ìÀîÇèÀøÈäÌ åÀàÄúÀ÷ÀøÅé
                                ùÀîÅéäÌ
                                > > îÄï
                                > > > > ÷ÇãÈí îÇôÀìÄéà òÅöÈä àÃìÈäÈà ðÄáÌÈøÈà ÷ÇéÈí
                                > > > > ìÀòÇìÀîÇéÈà îÀùÄéçÈà ãÄùÀìÈîÈà éÇñÀâÅé òÂìÈðÈà
                                > > > > áÌÀéåÉîåÉäÄé
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > "Translation:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > "The Prophet said to the House of David, For a Child is born
                                to
                                > > us, to
                                > > > > us a son is given; and he will accept the Torah upon himself to
                                > > observe
                                > > > > it, and his name shall be called before the Wonderful Counselor,
                                the
                                > > > > Mighty G-d, who exists forever, "The anointed one in who's days
                                > > peace
                                > > > > will increase upon us."
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > "From the Targum we can tell that the terms "Pele yo'etz (
                                > > ôÌÆìÆà
                                > > > > éÌåÉòÅõ )," "El gibbor ( àÅì âÌÄáÌåÉø )," "Avi-Ad (
                                > > > > àÂáÄé-òÇã )" were never meant to be human attributes but
                                that
                                > > of
                                > > > > G-d's himself. the only thing that was left to the child
                                mentioned
                                > > was
                                > > > > "Sar-Shalom ( ùÇø-ùÈìåÉí )" rendered correctly as
                                "Peaceful
                                > > > > Ruler." The Targum calls this person "the anointed one in who's
                                days
                                > > > > peace will increase upon us." the Targum makes a careful play on
                                the
                                > > > > words "Sar-Shalom" trying to place it as a future King who will
                                > > bring
                                > > > > peace in his days." - http://jewishcounte rmissionary. blogspot.
                                > > com/
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs
                                ianos
                                > > iul41@
                                > > > > wrote:
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Thank's a lot brother, this is a great resource.
                                > > > > > > Another question> How is translated Isaiah 9:6 in old
                                Aramaic
                                > > > > Targums?
                                > > > > > > Thank's a lot
                                > > > > > > John
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----
                                > > > > > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                                > > > > > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                                > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, July 6, 2008 3:35:17 AM
                                > > > > > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > It appears that the oldest existing manuscripts of the
                                > > Septuagint
                                > > > > which include Isaiah 9:6 are the 4th century AD Codex Vaticanus
                                and
                                > > > > Codex Sinaiticus.
                                > > > > > > They both render Is. 9:6 as:
                                > > > > > > "For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose
                                > > > > government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the
                                > > Messenger
                                > > > > [or 'Angel' - aggelos] of great counsel: for I will bring peace
                                upon
                                > > the
                                > > > > princes, and health to him."
                                > > > > > > Codex Alexandrinus of the 5th century, however, translates
                                Is.
                                > > 9:6
                                > > > > as found in our English Bibles.
                                > > > > > > ............ ......... ......... .......
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs
                                ianos
                                > > > > iul41@ wrote:
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > Another question, please.
                                > > > > > > > I want to know if exist an ancient copy of Septuaginta,
                                BC,
                                > > and
                                > > > > how is translated there Isaiah 9:6
                                > > > > > > > Thank's a lot.
                                > > > > > > > John
                                > > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • teddy_trueblood
                                It s a large amount to cut-and-paste. I have noticed that sometimes it takes a long time to download a file, and on some days I can t get it to download at
                                Message 15 of 23 , Jul 10, 2008

                                  It's a large amount to cut-and-paste.

                                  I have noticed that sometimes it takes a long time to download a file, and on some days I can't get it to download at all.  Other times, like today, it only took a few minutes. 

                                   Perhaps you could keep trying until it works for you.

                                  If it still won't work, here is a way to a condensed version of it:

                                  http://groups.msn.com/ReasoningFromScripture/isaiah96.msnw


                                  --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, takacs ianos <iul41@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > It is amazing, but unfortunately I don't could opened this. Why?
                                  > Please copy paste that information here.
                                  > Thank's a lot
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message ----
                                  > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroups.com
                                  > To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, July 9, 2008 11:19:36 PM
                                  > Subject: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Request
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >  
                                  > Yes, some Bibles have translated 'El Gibbor' as "Mighty Hero," "Divine Hero," etc.  For much more about this famous scripture see pages 2-4 in the following file:
                                  > http://f1.grp. yahoofs.com/ v1/wBh1SKDJN2MFd 6O23C1u-ZQH4pHUl w4fQir1FsrLaWqcV JVid4PYchRJNvSCl FJqoMv-jAJoVLZ6B 4rSDBz1aQ/ Trinity/NAME. rtf
                                  >
                                  > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos iul41@ wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Yes, this is clear that is a pharaphase. I see the English translation of The Dead Sea Scroll of Isaiah 9:6. This is the same like in our modern Bibles.
                                  > > But I chek the word, and I find that there is "El Gibbor" for Mighty God. I have a new question. I ask if Mighty is Gibbor in Hebrew, becouse I understand Gibbor is not Mighty. Gibbor mean Hero, like in Genesis 6:4 part b? Or I am wrong?
                                  > > In other places I find that the word El is translated with Mighty in Ezekiel 32:21.
                                  > > Now it is a big problem> Gibbor don't could be mighty, if El is mighty, or El don't could be mighty if Gibbor is mighty.
                                  > > What is the truth?
                                  > > I have a theory. It is possible that the El Gibbor means Mighty Hero.
                                  > > Please chek if the Mighty God is El Gibbor in the Isaiah 10:21.
                                  > > Thank's a lot.
                                  > > John
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > ----- Original Message ----
                                  > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                                  > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > > Sent: Tuesday, July 8, 2008 11:33:07 PM
                                  > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Whether translated by Judaists, trinitarians, or non-trinitarians, the literal word-for-word rendering of the Hebrew text in the interlinear version provided earlier is essentially the same.
                                  > > When it is rendered into English in a more readable form, there must be some interpretation to make it understandable to modern English speakers.  So, although others would render the word-for-word literal translation of the Masoretic text here essentially the same as has already been provided, their translating it into a Bible will reflect their own interpretations.
                                  > > Here, then are the only two translations I have by the Jewish Publication Society (JPS):
                                  > > "Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace."- footnote in the 1917 Margolis edition of The Holy Scriptures.
                                  > > And,
                                  > > "The Mighty God is planning grace,
                                  > > "The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler" - Tanakh, JPS, 1985.
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos iul41@ wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > OK. Yes. This is not in Torah.
                                  > > > The NIV International Hebrew English text is translated by christians?
                                  > > > If yes, could you give me a judaist translation, please?
                                  > > > Thank's again
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ----- Original Message ----
                                  > > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                                  > > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > > > Sent: Monday, July 7, 2008 10:07:09 PM
                                  > > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > As usually understood, the Torah is the first five books of the OT (the
                                  > > > writings of Moses). So Is. 9:6 would not be included in the Torah.
                                  > > > However, the OT also includes much more as found in the Masoretic Text.
                                  > > > There Is. 9:5 (9:6 in most English Bibles) is literally written as:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > "for child he-is-born to-us son he-is-given to-us and-she-will- be
                                  > > > the-government on shoulder-of- him and-he-will- call name-of-him
                                  > > > Wonder-of One-Counseling God-of Might Father-of Everlasting
                                  > > > Prince-of Peace" - The NIV Interlinear Hebrew-English Old Testament,
                                  > > > Vol. 4, Zondervan Publ., 1985.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos iul41@
                                  > > > wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Thank's again. It looks like a pharaphase.. .
                                  > > > > Well, a last question in this subject. In jewish common Torah, how is
                                  > > > Is. 9:6?
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > ----- Original Message ----
                                  > > > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                                  > > > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > > > > Sent: Monday, July 7, 2008 2:29:47 AM
                                  > > > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > This is all I've found:
                                  > > > > Is. 9:6
                                  > > > > "So what is in this person's name. I submit that all of the terms but
                                  > > > the last one "Sar Shalom" are not part of the person's name but are
                                  > > > descriptions of G-d himself. for evidence I give the Aramaic targum of
                                  > > > Yonatan to Isaiah to clarify the misconception of the person's name:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Targum Yonatan:
                                  > > > > àÇîÇø ðÀáÄéÈà ìÀáÅéú ãÈåÄã àÂøÅé øÈáÅé
                                  > > > àÄéúÀéÀìÄéã ìÈðÈà áÌÇø àÄúÀéÀäÇá ìÈðÈà åÀ÷ÇáÌÅì
                                  > > > àåÉøÇéÀúÈà òÂìåÉäÄé ìÀîÇèÀøÈäÌ åÀàÄúÀ÷ÀøÅé ùÀîÅéäÌ îÄï
                                  > > > ÷ÇãÈí îÇôÀìÄéà òÅöÈä àÃìÈäÈà ðÄáÌÈøÈà ÷ÇéÈí
                                  > > > ìÀòÇìÀîÇéÈà îÀùÄéçÈà ãÄùÀìÈîÈà éÇñÀâÅé òÂìÈðÈà
                                  > > > áÌÀéåÉîåÉäÄé
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > "Translation:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > "The Prophet said to the House of David, For a Child is born to us, to
                                  > > > us a son is given; and he will accept the Torah upon himself to observe
                                  > > > it, and his name shall be called before the Wonderful Counselor, the
                                  > > > Mighty G-d, who exists forever, "The anointed one in who's days peace
                                  > > > will increase upon us."
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > "From the Targum we can tell that the terms "Pele yo'etz ( ôÌÆìÆà
                                  > > > éÌåÉòÅõ )," "El gibbor ( àÅì âÌÄáÌåÉø )," "Avi-Ad (
                                  > > > àÂáÄé-òÇã )" were never meant to be human attributes but that of
                                  > > > G-d's himself. the only thing that was left to the child mentioned was
                                  > > > "Sar-Shalom ( ùÇø-ùÈìåÉí )" rendered correctly as "Peaceful
                                  > > > Ruler." The Targum calls this person "the anointed one in who's days
                                  > > > peace will increase upon us." the Targum makes a careful play on the
                                  > > > words "Sar-Shalom" trying to place it as a future King who will bring
                                  > > > peace in his days." - http://jewishcounte rmissionary. blogspot. com/
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos iul41@
                                  > > > wrote:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Thank's a lot brother, this is a great resource.
                                  > > > > > Another question> How is translated Isaiah 9:6 in old Aramaic
                                  > > > Targums?
                                  > > > > > Thank's a lot
                                  > > > > > John
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > ----- Original Message ----
                                  > > > > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                                  > > > > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                                  > > > > > Sent: Sunday, July 6, 2008 3:35:17 AM
                                  > > > > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > It appears that the oldest existing manuscripts of the Septuagint
                                  > > > which include Isaiah 9:6 are the 4th century AD Codex Vaticanus and
                                  > > > Codex Sinaiticus.
                                  > > > > > They both render Is. 9:6 as:
                                  > > > > > "For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose
                                  > > > government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger
                                  > > > [or 'Angel' - aggelos] of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the
                                  > > > princes, and health to him."
                                  > > > > > Codex Alexandrinus of the 5th century, however, translates Is. 9:6
                                  > > > as found in our English Bibles.
                                  > > > > > ............ ......... ......... .......
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos
                                  > > > iul41@ wrote:
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Another question, please.
                                  > > > > > > I want to know if exist an ancient copy of Septuaginta, BC, and
                                  > > > how is translated there Isaiah 9:6
                                  > > > > > > Thank's a lot.
                                  > > > > > > John
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >

                                • takacs ianos
                                  Thank s. In Genesis 6:4 exist gibbor? ... From: teddy_trueblood To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 10,
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Jul 11, 2008
                                    Thank's.
                                    In Genesis 6:4 exist gibbor?

                                    ----- Original Message ----
                                    From: teddy_trueblood <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                                    To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 11:03:39 PM
                                    Subject: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Request


                                    I believe those are the only two places where 'el gibbor' occur
                                    together.

                                    'Gibbor' is most often used for men and only occasionally for God or
                                    angels, whereas 'shaddai' ('Almighty') is used for God many times.

                                    --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos <iul41@...>
                                    wrote:

                                    >
                                    > Thank's. Exist El Gibbor in other places too?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message ----
                                    > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                                    > To: JWquestions- and_answers@
                                    yahoogroups. com
                                    > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 12:00:11 AM
                                    > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I forgot to answer your last question. Yes, 'el gibbor' is found at
                                    Isaiah 10:21.
                                    >
                                    > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, teddy_trueblood
                                    no_reply@ wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Yes, some Bibles have translated 'El Gibbor' as "Mighty Hero,"
                                    "Divine
                                    > > Hero," etc. For much more about this famous scripture see pages 2-4
                                    in
                                    > > the following file:
                                    > >
                                    > > http://f1.grp. yahoofs.com/ v1/wBh1SKDJN2MFd 6O23C1u-ZQH4pHUl
                                    w4fQir1FsrLaWq\
                                    > > cVJVid4PYchRJNvSClF JqoMv-jAJoVLZ6B4 rSDBz1aQ/ Trinity/NAME. rtf
                                    > > <
                                    rel=nofollow>http://f1.grp. yahoofs.com/ v1/wBh1SKDJN2MFd 6O23C1u-ZQH4pHUl
                                    w4fQir1FsrLaW\
                                    > > qcVJVid4PYchRJNvSCl FJqoMv-jAJoVLZ6B 4rSDBz1aQ/ Trinity/NAME. rtf>
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos
                                    iul41@
                                    > > wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Yes, this is clear that is a pharaphase. I see the English
                                    translation
                                    > > of The Dead Sea Scroll of Isaiah 9:6. This is the same like in our
                                    > > modern Bibles.
                                    > > > But I chek the word, and I find that there is "El Gibbor" for
                                    Mighty
                                    > > God. I have a new question. I ask if Mighty is Gibbor in Hebrew,
                                    becouse
                                    > > I understand Gibbor is not Mighty. Gibbor mean Hero, like in Genesis
                                    6:4
                                    > > part b? Or I am wrong?
                                    > > > In other places I find that the word El is translated with Mighty
                                    in
                                    > > Ezekiel 32:21.
                                    > > > Now it is a big problem> Gibbor don't could be mighty, if El is
                                    > > mighty, or El don't could be mighty if Gibbor is mighty.
                                    > > > What is the truth?
                                    > > > I have a theory. It is possible that the El Gibbor means Mighty
                                    Hero.
                                    > > > Please chek if the Mighty God is El Gibbor in the Isaiah 10:21.
                                    > > > Thank's a lot.
                                    > > > John
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > ----- Original Message ----
                                    > > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                                    > > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                                    > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 8, 2008 11:33:07 PM
                                    > > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Whether translated by Judaists, trinitarians, or non-trinitarians,
                                    the
                                    > > literal word-for-word
                                    rendering of the Hebrew text in the
                                    interlinear
                                    > > version provided earlier is essentially the same.
                                    > > > When it is rendered into English in a more readable form, there
                                    must
                                    > > be some interpretation to make it understandable to modern English
                                    > > speakers. So, although others would render the word-for-word literal
                                    > > translation of the Masoretic text here essentially the same as has
                                    > > already been provided, their translating it into a Bible will
                                    reflect
                                    > > their own interpretations.
                                    > > > Here, then are the only two translations I have by the Jewish
                                    > > Publication Society (JPS):
                                    > > > "Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father,
                                    the
                                    > > Ruler of peace."- footnote in the 1917 Margolis edition of The Holy
                                    > > Scriptures.
                                    > > > And,
                                    > > > "The Mighty God is planning
                                    grace,
                                    > > > "The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler" - Tanakh, JPS, 1985.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos
                                    iul41@
                                    > > wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > OK. Yes. This is not in Torah.
                                    > > > > The NIV International Hebrew English text is translated by
                                    > > christians?
                                    > > > > If yes, could you give me a judaist translation, please?
                                    > > > > Thank's again
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > ----- Original Message ----
                                    > > > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                                    > > > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                                    > > > > Sent: Monday, July 7, 2008 10:07:09 PM
                                    > > > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > As usually understood, the Torah is the first five books of the
                                    OT
                                    > > (the
                                    > > > > writings of Moses). So Is. 9:6 would not be included in the
                                    Torah.
                                    > > > > However, the OT also includes much more as found in the
                                    Masoretic
                                    > > Text.
                                    > > > > There Is. 9:5 (9:6 in most English Bibles) is literally written
                                    as:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > "for child he-is-born to-us son he-is-given to-us and-she-will-
                                    be
                                    > > > > the-government on shoulder-of- him and-he-will- call name-of-him
                                    > > > > Wonder-of One-Counseling God-of Might Father-of Everlasting
                                    > > > > Prince-of Peace" - The NIV Interlinear Hebrew-English Old
                                    Testament,
                                    > > > > Vol. 4, Zondervan Publ., 1985.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@
                                    yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos
                                    > > iul41@
                                    > > > > wrote:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Thank's again. It looks like a pharaphase.. .
                                    > > > > > Well, a last question in this subject. In jewish common Torah,
                                    how
                                    > > is
                                    > > > > Is. 9:6?
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > ----- Original Message ----
                                    > > > > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                                    > > > > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                                    > > > > > Sent: Monday, July 7, 2008 2:29:47 AM
                                    > > > > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > This is all I've found:
                                    > > > > > Is. 9:6
                                    > > > > > "So what is in this person's
                                    name. I submit that all of the
                                    terms
                                    > > but
                                    > > > > the last one "Sar Shalom" are not part of the person's name but
                                    are
                                    > > > > descriptions of G-d himself. for evidence I give the Aramaic
                                    targum
                                    > > of
                                    > > > > Yonatan to Isaiah to clarify the misconception of the person's
                                    name:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Targum Yonatan:
                                    > > > > > àÇîÇø ðÀáÄéÈà ìÀáÅéú ãÈåÄã àÂøÅé øÈáÅé
                                    > > > > àÄéúÀéÀìÄéã ìÈðÈà áÌÇø àÄúÀéÀäÇá ìÈðÈà
                                    åÀ÷ÇáÌÅì
                                    > > > > àåÉøÇéÀúÈà òÂìåÉäÄé ìÀîÇèÀøÈäÌ åÀàÄúÀ÷ÀøÅé
                                    ùÀîÅéäÌ
                                    > > îÄï
                                    > > > > ÷ÇãÈí îÇôÀìÄéà òÅöÈä àÃìÈäÈà ðÄáÌÈøÈà ÷ÇéÈí
                                    > > > > ìÀòÇìÀîÇéÈà îÀùÄéçÈà
                                    ãÄùÀìÈîÈà éÇñÀâÅé òÂìÈðÈà
                                    > > > > áÌÀéåÉîåÉäÄé
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > "Translation:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > "The Prophet said to the House of David, For a Child is born
                                    to
                                    > > us, to
                                    > > > > us a son is given; and he will accept the Torah upon himself to
                                    > > observe
                                    > > > > it, and his name shall be called before the Wonderful Counselor,
                                    the
                                    > > > > Mighty G-d, who exists forever, "The anointed one in who's days
                                    > > peace
                                    > > > > will increase upon us."
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > "From the Targum we can tell that the terms "Pele yo'etz (
                                    > > ôÌÆìÆà
                                    > > > > éÌåÉòÅõ )," "El gibbor ( àÅì âÌÄáÌåÉø )," "Avi-Ad (
                                    > > > > àÂáÄé-òÇã )" were never meant to be
                                    human attributes but
                                    that
                                    > > of
                                    > > > > G-d's himself. the only thing that was left to the child
                                    mentioned
                                    > > was
                                    > > > > "Sar-Shalom ( ùÇø-ùÈìåÉí )" rendered correctly as
                                    "Peaceful
                                    > > > > Ruler." The Targum calls this person "the anointed one in who's
                                    days
                                    > > > > peace will increase upon us." the Targum makes a careful play on
                                    the
                                    > > > > words "Sar-Shalom" trying to place it as a future King who will
                                    > > bring
                                    > > > > peace in his days." - http://jewishcounte rmissionary. blogspot.
                                    > > com/
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs
                                    ianos
                                    > > iul41@
                                    > > > > wrote:
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Thank's a lot
                                    brother, this is a great resource.
                                    > > > > > > Another question> How is translated Isaiah 9:6 in old
                                    Aramaic
                                    > > > > Targums?
                                    > > > > > > Thank's a lot
                                    > > > > > > John
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----
                                    > > > > > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                                    > > > > > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                                    > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, July 6, 2008 3:35:17 AM
                                    > > > > > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > It appears that the oldest existing manuscripts of the
                                    > > Septuagint
                                    > > > > which include Isaiah 9:6 are the 4th
                                    century AD Codex Vaticanus
                                    and
                                    > > > > Codex Sinaiticus.
                                    > > > > > > They both render Is. 9:6 as:
                                    > > > > > > "For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose
                                    > > > > government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the
                                    > > Messenger
                                    > > > > [or 'Angel' - aggelos] of great counsel: for I will bring peace
                                    upon
                                    > > the
                                    > > > > princes, and health to him."
                                    > > > > > > Codex Alexandrinus of the 5th century, however, translates
                                    Is.
                                    > > 9:6
                                    > > > > as found in our English Bibles.
                                    > > > > > > ............ ......... ......... .......
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs
                                    ianos
                                    > > > > iul41@ wrote:
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > Another question, please.
                                    > > > > > > > I want to know if exist an ancient copy of Septuaginta,
                                    BC,
                                    > > and
                                    > > > > how is translated there Isaiah 9:6
                                    > > > > > > > Thank's a lot.
                                    > > > > > > > John
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >


                                  • teddy_trueblood
                                    Yes, in its definite plural form: ha gibborim : the mighty ones (often rendered as heroes ). ... 2-4 ... Genesis ... Mighty ... non-trinitarians, ...
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Jul 11, 2008
                                      Yes, in its definite plural form: "ha gibborim": "the mighty ones"
                                      (often rendered as "heroes").


                                      --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, takacs ianos <iul41@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Thank's.
                                      > In Genesis 6:4 exist gibbor?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message ----
                                      > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroups.com
                                      > To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 11:03:39 PM
                                      > Subject: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Request
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I believe those are the only two places where 'el gibbor' occur
                                      > together.
                                      >
                                      > 'Gibbor' is most often used for men and only occasionally for God or
                                      > angels, whereas 'shaddai' ('Almighty') is used for God many times.
                                      >
                                      > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos iul41@
                                      > wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Thank's. Exist El Gibbor in other places too?
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > ----- Original Message ----
                                      > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                                      > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                                      > > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 12:00:11 AM
                                      > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > I forgot to answer your last question. Yes, 'el gibbor' is found at
                                      > Isaiah 10:21.
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, teddy_trueblood
                                      > no_reply@ wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Yes, some Bibles have translated 'El Gibbor' as "Mighty Hero,"
                                      > "Divine
                                      > > > Hero," etc. For much more about this famous scripture see pages
                                      2-4
                                      > in
                                      > > > the following file:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > http://f1.grp. yahoofs.com/ v1/wBh1SKDJN2MFd 6O23C1u-ZQH4pHUl
                                      > w4fQir1FsrLaWq\
                                      > > > cVJVid4PYchRJNvSClF JqoMv-jAJoVLZ6B4 rSDBz1aQ/ Trinity/NAME. rtf
                                      > > > <http://f1.grp. yahoofs.com/ v1/wBh1SKDJN2MFd 6O23C1u-ZQH4pHUl
                                      > w4fQir1FsrLaW\
                                      > > > qcVJVid4PYchRJNvSCl FJqoMv-jAJoVLZ6B 4rSDBz1aQ/ Trinity/NAME. rtf>
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos
                                      > iul41@
                                      > > > wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Yes, this is clear that is a pharaphase. I see the English
                                      > translation
                                      > > > of The Dead Sea Scroll of Isaiah 9:6. This is the same like in our
                                      > > > modern Bibles.
                                      > > > > But I chek the word, and I find that there is "El Gibbor" for
                                      > Mighty
                                      > > > God. I have a new question. I ask if Mighty is Gibbor in Hebrew,
                                      > becouse
                                      > > > I understand Gibbor is not Mighty. Gibbor mean Hero, like in
                                      Genesis
                                      > 6:4
                                      > > > part b? Or I am wrong?
                                      > > > > In other places I find that the word El is translated with
                                      Mighty
                                      > in
                                      > > > Ezekiel 32:21.
                                      > > > > Now it is a big problem> Gibbor don't could be mighty, if El is
                                      > > > mighty, or El don't could be mighty if Gibbor is mighty.
                                      > > > > What is the truth?
                                      > > > > I have a theory. It is possible that the El Gibbor means Mighty
                                      > Hero.
                                      > > > > Please chek if the Mighty God is El Gibbor in the Isaiah 10:21.
                                      > > > > Thank's a lot.
                                      > > > > John
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > ----- Original Message ----
                                      > > > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                                      > > > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                                      > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 8, 2008 11:33:07 PM
                                      > > > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Whether translated by Judaists, trinitarians, or
                                      non-trinitarians,
                                      > the
                                      > > > literal word-for-word rendering of the Hebrew text in the
                                      > interlinear
                                      > > > version provided earlier is essentially the same.
                                      > > > > When it is rendered into English in a more readable form, there
                                      > must
                                      > > > be some interpretation to make it understandable to modern English
                                      > > > speakers. So, although others would render the word-for-word
                                      literal
                                      > > > translation of the Masoretic text here essentially the same as has
                                      > > > already been provided, their translating it into a Bible will
                                      > reflect
                                      > > > their own interpretations.
                                      > > > > Here, then are the only two translations I have by the Jewish
                                      > > > Publication Society (JPS):
                                      > > > > "Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father,
                                      > the
                                      > > > Ruler of peace."- footnote in the 1917 Margolis edition of The
                                      Holy
                                      > > > Scriptures.
                                      > > > > And,
                                      > > > > "The Mighty God is planning grace,
                                      > > > > "The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler" - Tanakh, JPS, 1985.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos
                                      > iul41@
                                      > > > wrote:
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > OK. Yes. This is not in Torah.
                                      > > > > > The NIV International Hebrew English text is translated by
                                      > > > christians?
                                      > > > > > If yes, could you give me a judaist translation, please?
                                      > > > > > Thank's again
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > ----- Original Message ----
                                      > > > > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                                      > > > > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                                      > > > > > Sent: Monday, July 7, 2008 10:07:09 PM
                                      > > > > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > As usually understood, the Torah is the first five books of
                                      the
                                      > OT
                                      > > > (the
                                      > > > > > writings of Moses). So Is. 9:6 would not be included in the
                                      > Torah.
                                      > > > > > However, the OT also includes much more as found in the
                                      > Masoretic
                                      > > > Text.
                                      > > > > > There Is. 9:5 (9:6 in most English Bibles) is literally
                                      written
                                      > as:
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > "for child he-is-born to-us son he-is-given to-us
                                      and-she-will-
                                      > be
                                      > > > > > the-government on shoulder-of- him and-he-will- call
                                      name-of-him
                                      > > > > > Wonder-of One-Counseling God-of Might Father-of Everlasting
                                      > > > > > Prince-of Peace" - The NIV Interlinear Hebrew-English Old
                                      > Testament,
                                      > > > > > Vol. 4, Zondervan Publ., 1985.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs
                                      ianos
                                      > > > iul41@
                                      > > > > > wrote:
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Thank's again. It looks like a pharaphase.. .
                                      > > > > > > Well, a last question in this subject. In jewish common
                                      Torah,
                                      > how
                                      > > > is
                                      > > > > > Is. 9:6?
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----
                                      > > > > > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                                      > > > > > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                                      > > > > > > Sent: Monday, July 7, 2008 2:29:47 AM
                                      > > > > > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > This is all I've found:
                                      > > > > > > Is. 9:6
                                      > > > > > > "So what is in this person's name. I submit that all of the
                                      > terms
                                      > > > but
                                      > > > > > the last one "Sar Shalom" are not part of the person's name
                                      but
                                      > are
                                      > > > > > descriptions of G-d himself. for evidence I give the Aramaic
                                      > targum
                                      > > > of
                                      > > > > > Yonatan to Isaiah to clarify the misconception of the person's
                                      > name:
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Targum Yonatan:
                                      > > > > > > àÇîÇø ðÀáÄéÈà ìÀáÅéú ãÈåÄã àÂøÅé øÈáÅé
                                      > > > > > àÄéúÀéÀìÄéã ìÈðÈà áÌÇø àÄúÀéÀäÇá ìÈðÈà
                                      > åÀ÷ÇáÌÅì
                                      > > > > > àåÉøÇéÀúÈà òÂìåÉäÄé ìÀîÇèÀøÈäÌ åÀàÄúÀ÷ÀøÅé
                                      > ùÀîÅéäÌ
                                      > > > îÄï
                                      > > > > > ÷ÇãÈí îÇôÀìÄéà òÅöÈä àÃìÈäÈà ðÄáÌÈøÈà ÷ÇéÈí
                                      > > > > > ìÀòÇìÀîÇéÈà îÀùÄéçÈà ãÄùÀìÈîÈà éÇñÀâÅé òÂìÈðÈà
                                      > > > > > áÌÀéåÉîåÉäÄé
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > "Translation:
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > "The Prophet said to the House of David, For a Child is born
                                      > to
                                      > > > us, to
                                      > > > > > us a son is given; and he will accept the Torah upon himself
                                      to
                                      > > > observe
                                      > > > > > it, and his name shall be called before the Wonderful
                                      Counselor,
                                      > the
                                      > > > > > Mighty G-d, who exists forever, "The anointed one in who's
                                      days
                                      > > > peace
                                      > > > > > will increase upon us."
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > "From the Targum we can tell that the terms "Pele yo'etz (
                                      > > > ôÌÆìÆà
                                      > > > > > éÌåÉòÅõ )," "El gibbor ( àÅì âÌÄáÌåÉø )," "Avi-Ad (
                                      > > > > > àÂáÄé-òÇã )" were never meant to be human attributes but
                                      > that
                                      > > > of
                                      > > > > > G-d's himself. the only thing that was left to the child
                                      > mentioned
                                      > > > was
                                      > > > > > "Sar-Shalom ( ùÇø-ùÈìåÉí )" rendered correctly as
                                      > "Peaceful
                                      > > > > > Ruler." The Targum calls this person "the anointed one in
                                      who's
                                      > days
                                      > > > > > peace will increase upon us." the Targum makes a careful play
                                      on
                                      > the
                                      > > > > > words "Sar-Shalom" trying to place it as a future King who
                                      will
                                      > > > bring
                                      > > > > > peace in his days." - http://jewishcounte rmissionary.
                                      blogspot.
                                      > > > com/
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs
                                      > ianos
                                      > > > iul41@
                                      > > > > > wrote:
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > Thank's a lot brother, this is a great resource.
                                      > > > > > > > Another question> How is translated Isaiah 9:6 in old
                                      > Aramaic
                                      > > > > > Targums?
                                      > > > > > > > Thank's a lot
                                      > > > > > > > John
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----
                                      > > > > > > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                                      > > > > > > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                                      > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, July 6, 2008 3:35:17 AM
                                      > > > > > > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > It appears that the oldest existing manuscripts of the
                                      > > > Septuagint
                                      > > > > > which include Isaiah 9:6 are the 4th century AD Codex
                                      Vaticanus
                                      > and
                                      > > > > > Codex Sinaiticus.
                                      > > > > > > > They both render Is. 9:6 as:
                                      > > > > > > > "For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us,
                                      whose
                                      > > > > > government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the
                                      > > > Messenger
                                      > > > > > [or 'Angel' - aggelos] of great counsel: for I will bring
                                      peace
                                      > upon
                                      > > > the
                                      > > > > > princes, and health to him."
                                      > > > > > > > Codex Alexandrinus of the 5th century, however, translates
                                      > Is.
                                      > > > 9:6
                                      > > > > > as found in our English Bibles.
                                      > > > > > > > ............ ......... ......... .......
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs
                                      > ianos
                                      > > > > > iul41@ wrote:
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > Another question, please.
                                      > > > > > > > > I want to know if exist an ancient copy of Septuaginta,
                                      > BC,
                                      > > > and
                                      > > > > > how is translated there Isaiah 9:6
                                      > > > > > > > > Thank's a lot.
                                      > > > > > > > > John
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • takacs ianos
                                      Thank s. It is clear that mighty ones could be peoples also. But maybee gibbor is not mighty, possible is hero. Exist another word for hero, in hebrew? ...
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Jul 12, 2008
                                        Thank's. It is clear that "mighty ones" could be peoples also. But maybee gibbor is not mighty, possible is hero. Exist another word for hero, in hebrew?


                                        ----- Original Message ----
                                        From: teddy_trueblood <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                                        To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 11:12:35 PM
                                        Subject: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Request


                                        Yes, in its definite plural form: "ha gibborim": "the mighty ones"
                                        (often rendered as "heroes").

                                        --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos <iul41@...>
                                        wrote:

                                        >
                                        > Thank's.
                                        > In Genesis 6:4 exist gibbor?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ----- Original Message ----
                                        > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                                        > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                                        > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 11:03:39 PM
                                        > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re:
                                        Request
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > I believe those are the only two places where 'el gibbor' occur
                                        > together.
                                        >
                                        > 'Gibbor' is most often used for men and only occasionally for God or
                                        > angels, whereas 'shaddai' ('Almighty') is used for God many times.
                                        >
                                        > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos iul41@
                                        > wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Thank's. Exist El Gibbor in other places too?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > ----- Original Message ----
                                        > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                                        > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                                        > > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 12:00:11 AM
                                        > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > I forgot to answer your last question. Yes, 'el gibbor' is found at
                                        > Isaiah 10:21.
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, teddy_trueblood
                                        > no_reply@ wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Yes, some Bibles have translated 'El Gibbor' as "Mighty Hero,"
                                        > "Divine
                                        > > > Hero," etc. For much more about this famous scripture see pages
                                        2-4
                                        > in
                                        > > > the following file:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > http://f1.grp. yahoofs.com/ v1/wBh1SKDJN2MFd 6O23C1u-ZQH4pHUl
                                        > w4fQir1FsrLaWq\
                                        > > > cVJVid4PYchRJNvSClF JqoMv-jAJoVLZ6B4 rSDBz1aQ/ Trinity/NAME. rtf
                                        > > > <http://f1.grp. yahoofs.com/ v1/wBh1SKDJN2MFd 6O23C1u-ZQH4pHUl
                                        > w4fQir1FsrLaW\
                                        > > > qcVJVid4PYchRJNvSCl FJqoMv-jAJoVLZ6B 4rSDBz1aQ/ Trinity/NAME.
                                        rtf>
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos
                                        > iul41@
                                        > > > wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Yes, this is clear that is a pharaphase. I see the English
                                        > translation
                                        > > > of The Dead Sea Scroll of Isaiah 9:6. This is the same like in our
                                        > > > modern Bibles.
                                        > > > > But I chek the word, and I find that there is "El Gibbor" for
                                        > Mighty
                                        > > > God. I have a new question. I ask if Mighty is Gibbor in Hebrew,
                                        > becouse
                                        > > > I understand Gibbor is not Mighty. Gibbor mean Hero, like in
                                        Genesis
                                        > 6:4
                                        > > > part b? Or I am wrong?
                                        > > > > In other places I find that the word El is translated with
                                        Mighty
                                        > in
                                        > > > Ezekiel 32:21.
                                        > > > > Now it is a big problem> Gibbor don't could be mighty,
                                        if El is
                                        > > > mighty, or El don't could be mighty if Gibbor is mighty.
                                        > > > > What is the truth?
                                        > > > > I have a theory. It is possible that the El Gibbor means Mighty
                                        > Hero.
                                        > > > > Please chek if the Mighty God is El Gibbor in the Isaiah 10:21.
                                        > > > > Thank's a lot.
                                        > > > > John
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > ----- Original Message ----
                                        > > > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                                        > > > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                                        > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 8, 2008 11:33:07 PM
                                        > > > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Whether translated by Judaists, trinitarians, or
                                        non-trinitarians,
                                        > the
                                        > > > literal word-for-word
                                        rendering of the Hebrew text in the
                                        > interlinear
                                        > > > version provided earlier is essentially the same.
                                        > > > > When it is rendered into English in a more readable form, there
                                        > must
                                        > > > be some interpretation to make it understandable to modern English
                                        > > > speakers. So, although others would render the word-for-word
                                        literal
                                        > > > translation of the Masoretic text here essentially the same as has
                                        > > > already been provided, their translating it into a Bible will
                                        > reflect
                                        > > > their own interpretations.
                                        > > > > Here, then are the only two translations I have by the Jewish
                                        > > > Publication Society (JPS):
                                        > > > > "Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father,
                                        > the
                                        > > > Ruler of peace."- footnote in the 1917 Margolis edition of The
                                        Holy
                                        > > >
                                        Scriptures.
                                        > > > > And,
                                        > > > > "The Mighty God is planning grace,
                                        > > > > "The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler" - Tanakh, JPS, 1985.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs ianos
                                        > iul41@
                                        > > > wrote:
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > OK. Yes. This is not in Torah.
                                        > > > > > The NIV International Hebrew English text is translated by
                                        > > > christians?
                                        > > > > > If yes, could you give me a judaist translation, please?
                                        > > > > > Thank's again
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > ----- Original Message ----
                                        > > > > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                                        > > > > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                                        > > > > > Sent: Monday, July 7, 2008 10:07:09 PM
                                        > > > > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > As usually understood, the Torah is the first five books of
                                        the
                                        > OT
                                        > > > (the
                                        > > > > > writings of Moses). So Is. 9:6 would not be included in the
                                        > Torah.
                                        > > > > > However, the OT also includes much more as found in the
                                        > Masoretic
                                        > > > Text.
                                        > > > > > There Is. 9:5 (9:6 in most English Bibles) is literally
                                        written
                                        > as:
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > "for child he-is-born to-us son he-is-given to-us
                                        and-she-will-
                                        > be
                                        > > > > > the-government on shoulder-of- him and-he-will- call
                                        name-of-him
                                        > > > > >
                                        Wonder-of One-Counseling God-of Might Father-of Everlasting
                                        > > > > > Prince-of Peace" - The NIV Interlinear Hebrew-English Old
                                        > Testament,
                                        > > > > > Vol. 4, Zondervan Publ., 1985.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs
                                        ianos
                                        > > > iul41@
                                        > > > > > wrote:
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Thank's again. It looks like a pharaphase.. .
                                        > > > > > > Well, a last question in this subject. In jewish common
                                        Torah,
                                        > how
                                        > > > is
                                        > > > > > Is. 9:6?
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----
                                        > > > > > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                                        > > > > > > To:
                                        JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                                        > > > > > > Sent: Monday, July 7, 2008 2:29:47 AM
                                        > > > > > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > This is all I've found:
                                        > > > > > > Is. 9:6
                                        > > > > > > "So what is in this person's name. I submit that all of the
                                        > terms
                                        > > > but
                                        > > > > > the last one "Sar Shalom" are not part of the person's name
                                        but
                                        > are
                                        > > > > > descriptions of G-d himself. for evidence I give the Aramaic
                                        > targum
                                        > > > of
                                        > > > > > Yonatan to Isaiah to clarify the misconception of the person's
                                        > name:
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Targum Yonatan:
                                        > > > > > > àÇîÇø ðÀáÄéÈà
                                        ìÀáÅéú ãÈåÄã àÂøÅé øÈáÅé
                                        > > > > > àÄéúÀéÀìÄéã ìÈðÈà áÌÇø àÄúÀéÀäÇá ìÈðÈà
                                        > åÀ÷ÇáÌÅì
                                        > > > > > àåÉøÇéÀúÈà òÂìåÉäÄé ìÀîÇèÀøÈäÌ åÀàÄúÀ÷ÀøÅé
                                        > ùÀîÅéäÌ
                                        > > > îÄï
                                        > > > > > ÷ÇãÈí îÇôÀìÄéà òÅöÈä àÃìÈäÈà ðÄáÌÈøÈà ÷ÇéÈí
                                        > > > > > ìÀòÇìÀîÇéÈà îÀùÄéçÈà ãÄùÀìÈîÈà éÇñÀâÅé òÂìÈðÈà
                                        > > > > > áÌÀéåÉîåÉäÄé
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > "Translation:
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > "The Prophet said to the House of David, For a Child is born
                                        > to
                                        > > > us, to
                                        > > > > > us a son is given; and he will accept the Torah upon himself
                                        to
                                        > > >
                                        observe
                                        > > > > > it, and his name shall be called before the Wonderful
                                        Counselor,
                                        > the
                                        > > > > > Mighty G-d, who exists forever, "The anointed one in who's
                                        days
                                        > > > peace
                                        > > > > > will increase upon us."
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > "From the Targum we can tell that the terms "Pele yo'etz (
                                        > > > ôÌÆìÆà
                                        > > > > > éÌåÉòÅõ )," "El gibbor ( àÅì âÌÄáÌåÉø )," "Avi-Ad (
                                        > > > > > àÂáÄé-òÇã )" were never meant to be human attributes but
                                        > that
                                        > > > of
                                        > > > > > G-d's himself. the only thing that was left to the child
                                        > mentioned
                                        > > > was
                                        > > > > > "Sar-Shalom ( ùÇø-ùÈìåÉí )" rendered correctly as
                                        > "Peaceful
                                        > > > > > Ruler." The Targum calls this person "the
                                        anointed one in
                                        who's
                                        > days
                                        > > > > > peace will increase upon us." the Targum makes a careful play
                                        on
                                        > the
                                        > > > > > words "Sar-Shalom" trying to place it as a future King who
                                        will
                                        > > > bring
                                        > > > > > peace in his days." - http://jewishcounte rmissionary.
                                        blogspot.
                                        > > > com/
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs
                                        > ianos
                                        > > > iul41@
                                        > > > > > wrote:
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > Thank's a lot brother, this is a great resource.
                                        > > > > > > > Another question> How is translated Isaiah 9:6 in old
                                        > Aramaic
                                        > > > > > Targums?
                                        > > > > > > > Thank's a
                                        lot
                                        > > > > > > > John
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----
                                        > > > > > > > From: teddy_trueblood no_reply@yahoogroup s.com
                                        > > > > > > > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                                        > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, July 6, 2008 3:35:17 AM
                                        > > > > > > > Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Request
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > It appears that the oldest existing manuscripts of the
                                        > > > Septuagint
                                        > > > > > which include Isaiah 9:6 are the 4th century AD Codex
                                        Vaticanus
                                        > and
                                        > > > > > Codex Sinaiticus.
                                        > > > > > > > They both render
                                        Is. 9:6 as:
                                        > > > > > > > "For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us,
                                        whose
                                        > > > > > government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the
                                        > > > Messenger
                                        > > > > > [or 'Angel' - aggelos] of great counsel: for I will bring
                                        peace
                                        > upon
                                        > > > the
                                        > > > > > princes, and health to him."
                                        > > > > > > > Codex Alexandrinus of the 5th century, however, translates
                                        > Is.
                                        > > > 9:6
                                        > > > > > as found in our English Bibles.
                                        > > > > > > > ............ ......... ......... .......
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, takacs
                                        > ianos
                                        > > > > > iul41@ wrote:
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        Another question, please.
                                        > > > > > > > > I want to know if exist an ancient copy of Septuaginta,
                                        > BC,
                                        > > > and
                                        > > > > > how is translated there Isaiah 9:6
                                        > > > > > > > > Thank's a lot.
                                        > > > > > > > > John
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        >


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