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Re: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: I just Joined

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  • Paul Leonard
    Hi Lisa, Let s look at Scripture to help us. Consider a very important verse. (2 Peter 3:10) 10 Yet Jehovah’s day will come as a thief, in which the heavens
    Message 1 of 15 , Mar 31, 2008
      Hi Lisa,

      Let's look at Scripture to help us. Consider a very important verse.

      (2 Peter 3:10) 10 Yet Jehovah’s day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a hissing noise, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be discovered.

      This is an example of where something is spoken of as being done away with. Yet is it actually referring to Heaven itself?

      Nope, look just before this.

      (2 Peter 3:5-6) 5 For, according to their wish, this fact escapes their notice, that there were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6 and by those [means] the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water.

      OK, was the "earth" destroyed in the flood or????

      (2 Peter 3:7) 7 But by the same word the heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men.

      It was not the earth as in the planet, rather the "world".

      Note the various meanings of the word 'earth/world" in Greek:

      1093 gh/ ge {ghay}
      Meaning:  1) arable land 2) the ground, the earth as a standing place 3) the main land as opposed to the sea or water 4) the earth as a whole 4a) the earth as opposed to the heavens 4b) the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animals 5) a country, land e

      Thayer's Greek lexicon:4. the earth as a whole, the world (Latin terrarum orbis); a. the earth as opposed to the heavens:  Matt. 5:18,35; 6:10; 16:19; 18:18; 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 2:14; John 12:32; Acts 2:19; 4:24; 2 Pet. 3:5,7,10,13; Rev. 21:1; ta, evpi, th/j gh/j the things and beings that are on the earth, 

      Friberg Greek lexicon: 5431  gh/, gh/j, h` earth; (1) as receiving seed or rain soil, ground, earth (MT 13.5); (2) as a place to lay a foundation ground (LU 6.49); (3) land (MK 4.1), in contrast to qa,lassa (sea); (4) earth (MT 5.18), in contrast to ouvrano,j (heaven); (5) as a specific territory land, region, country (MT 2.20); (6) as the whole inhabited earth (LU 21.35); by metonymy mankind, world (MT 5.13); evpi. th/j gh/j among people (LU 18.8)

      UBS Lexicon: 1293  gh/ , gh/j f the earth; land, country, region; soil, ground; mankind 

      Louw-Nida Greek lexicon:
      1.39  gh/, gh/j f ; oivkoume,nh, hj f ; ko,smoj, ou m: the surface of the earth as the dwelling place of mankind, in contrast with the heavens above and the world below - 'earth, world.' gh/ ouvai. tou.j katoikou/ntaj evpi. th/j gh/j 'how horrible it will be for all who live on earth!' Re 8.13. oivkoume,nh: e;deixen auvtw|/ pa,saj ta.j basilei,aj th/j oivkoume,nhj 'he showed him all the kingdoms of the world' Lk 4.5. ko,smoj: dei,knusin auvtw|/ pa,saj ta.j basilei,aj tou/ ko,smou 'he showed him all the kingdoms of the world' Mt 4.8.
      In He 2.5 there is a reference to th.n oivkoume,nhn th.n me,llousan 'the world to come, the future world.' This has generally been interpreted as being equivalent to 'the coming age,' but the use of oivkoume,nh would seem to imply an inhabited world.

      In other words the planet will not be destroyed rather the system and people who live on it. In fact, just as in Noah's day ONLY the bad died.The earth:

      ASV Ecclesiastes 1:4 One generation goeth, and another generation cometh; but the earth abideth for ever.

      Here men come and go, but the earth or planet exists forever.

      So in Noah's day the system of world of men was destroyed. Now how would that apply to a new heavens? Well an old heavens was also spoken of. What was that? How about the satanic influence over the world that made it so bad?

      (Genesis 6:9-12) 9 This is the history of Noah. Noah was a righteous man. He proved himself faultless among his contemporaries. Noah walked with the [true] God. 10 In time Noah became father to three sons, Shem, Ham and Ja´pheth. 11 And the earth came to be ruined in the sight of the [true] God and the earth became filled with violence. 12 So God saw the earth and, look! it was ruined, because all flesh had ruined its way on the earth.

      What haoppened?

      (Genesis 6:4) 4 The Neph´i·lim proved to be in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of the [true] God continued to have relations with the daughters of men and they bore sons to them, they were the mighty ones who were of old, the men of fame.

      Demons walked the earth as men and had children. THEY became the rulers. Heavenly beings. They were removed as having any authority. Now do we see any thought similar today of the heavens being cleansed of bad angels, etc in any way???

      Revelation 12:7-9   7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,  8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.  9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

      OK< now we have a clean or "new heavens". But what about the earth. Well remember what was said about the earth in Noah's day?

      11 And the earth came to be ruined in the sight of the [true] God and the earth became filled with violence.

      Humm consider Revelation 11:18:

      (Revelation 11:18) 18 But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give [their] reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and to those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”

      Yep the new heavens exists with Christ enthroned and about to cleans the earth by destroying evil ma and his works. No destruction of the planet anymore than a destruction of God's home. Just a destruction of cleansing of the evil.

      Hope this helps.

      abidenchrist09 <abidenchrist09@...> wrote:
      Exactly Paul, this is what I thought in reading about this, but it was always shot down as heresy, and so I waited patiently,,I look forward to hearing more on this, and I know your at work now, so thank you for answering at all, from there, it is appreciated. Lisa
      --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Leonard <anotherpaul2001@ ...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi,
      >
      > I am at work now so just have time for a short note. I am sure others will answer also.
      >
      > Think about what and a New earth a New Heavens requires. Do the literal heavens where God , the angels, etc reside get destroyed and if so why? Where do they reside during the destruction?
      >
      > Or can it mean something OTHER than the literal destruction of the heavens and the earth?
      >
      > I will post a couple of verses later this evening to help, assuming many others do not beat me to it. :^)
      >
      > abidenchrist09 abidenchrist09@ ... wrote: Hi Paul, thank you. I typed a response to your message 10 minutes ago but it never showed up, guess yahoo is slow today. I have read quite a bit so far, but really the only thing for now that I ask your help on is where the Bible teaches a New Earth will come down, you see, many people told me through the years that , that verse simply refered to Jerusalem that would be destroyed and be made new later. I accepted that, so I wouldn't be argumentive, but it bothered me, because those verses really seem to teach there will be an actual New Earth and Heaven, could you expound on this? I'd appreciate it, thank you, Lisa
      > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Leonard anotherpaul2001@ wrote:
      > >
      > > Any questions, just ask.
      > >
      > > abidenchrist09 abidenchrist09@ wrote: Thx for the welcome. I guess finally my message came through. I've been reading alot in here and its very interesting reading. Lisa
      > > --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Leonard anotherpaul2001@ wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Welcome
      > > >
      > > > abidenchrist09 abidenchrist09@ wrote: Hello, I was accepted into this group today (saturday), I found this group from a link in another group while checking out information on bible issues. I'm glad I found it, because I am quite interested in learning more about what JW's believe and why. I'm here to read and learn things, never to attack you, so I hope you accept me here. My name is Elisa, and I am an older woman, lets just say past 40, and I live in Arkansas, and am baptized for remission of sins as found in Acts 22:16 and Acts 2:38. I assure the owner of the group that my messages will be repectful always so no need to be approved. Thank you for accepting me, Elisa
      > > >
      > >
      >

    • abidenchrist09
      Paul, this helped alot, thank you, when I have Ink again in my printer I ll print this out and show it to anyone who tells me what they have before, that this
      Message 2 of 15 , Apr 1, 2008
        Paul, this helped alot, thank you, when I have Ink again in my printer I'll print this out and show it to anyone who tells me what they have before, that this is false belief. I read the scriptures and have before, and it made sense then just like it does now, it is not the literal earth that will be destroyed but the world of evil. I appreciate the time it took for you to type all of this, it will help in the future too. Thx again, Lisa
        --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, Paul Leonard <anotherpaul2001@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Lisa,
        >
        > Let's look at Scripture to help us. Consider a very important verse.
        >
        > (2 Peter 3:10) 10 Yet Jehovah's day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a hissing noise, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be discovered.
        >
        > This is an example of where something is spoken of as being done away with. Yet is it actually referring to Heaven itself?
        >
        > Nope, look just before this.
        >
        > (2 Peter 3:5-6) 5 For, according to their wish, this fact escapes their notice, that there were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6 and by those [means] the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water.
        >
        > OK, was the "earth" destroyed in the flood or????
        >
        > (2 Peter 3:7) 7 But by the same word the heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men.
        >
        > It was not the earth as in the planet, rather the "world".
        >
        > Note the various meanings of the word 'earth/world" in Greek:
        >
        > 1093 gh/ ge {ghay}
        > Meaning: 1) arable land 2) the ground, the earth as a standing place 3) the main land as opposed to the sea or water 4) the earth as a whole 4a) the earth as opposed to the heavens 4b) the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animals 5) a country, land e
        >
        > Thayer's Greek lexicon:4. the earth as a whole, the world (Latin terrarum orbis); a. the earth as opposed to the heavens: Matt. 5:18,35; 6:10; 16:19; 18:18; 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 2:14; John 12:32; Acts 2:19; 4:24; 2 Pet. 3:5,7,10,13; Rev. 21:1; ta, evpi, th/j gh/j the things and beings that are on the earth,
        >
        > Friberg Greek lexicon: 5431 gh/, gh/j, h` earth; (1) as receiving seed or rain soil, ground, earth (MT 13.5); (2) as a place to lay a foundation ground (LU 6.49); (3) land (MK 4.1), in contrast to qa,lassa (sea); (4) earth (MT 5.18), in contrast to ouvrano,j (heaven); (5) as a specific territory land, region, country (MT 2.20); (6) as the whole inhabited earth (LU 21.35); by metonymy mankind, world (MT 5.13); evpi. th/j gh/j among people (LU 18.8)
        >
        > UBS Lexicon: 1293 gh/ , gh/j f the earth; land, country, region; soil, ground; mankind
        >
        > Louw-Nida Greek lexicon:1.39 gh/, gh/j f ; oivkoume,nh, hj f ; ko,smoj, ou m: the surface of the earth as the dwelling place of mankind, in contrast with the heavens above and the world below - 'earth, world.' gh/ ouvai. tou.j katoikou/ntaj evpi. th/j gh/j 'how horrible it will be for all who live on earth!' Re 8.13. oivkoume,nh: e;deixen auvtw|/ pa,saj ta.j basilei,aj th/j oivkoume,nhj 'he showed him all the kingdoms of the world' Lk 4.5. ko,smoj: dei,knusin auvtw|/ pa,saj ta.j basilei,aj tou/ ko,smou 'he showed him all the kingdoms of the world' Mt 4.8.
        > In He 2.5 there is a reference to th.n oivkoume,nhn th.n me,llousan 'the world to come, the future world.' This has generally been interpreted as being equivalent to 'the coming age,' but the use of oivkoume,nh would seem to imply an inhabited world.
        >
        > In other words the planet will not be destroyed rather the system and people who live on it. In fact, just as in Noah's day ONLY the bad died.The earth:
        >
        > ASV Ecclesiastes 1:4 One generation goeth, and another generation cometh; but the earth abideth for ever.
        >
        > Here men come and go, but the earth or planet exists forever.
        >
        > So in Noah's day the system of world of men was destroyed. Now how would that apply to a new heavens? Well an old heavens was also spoken of. What was that? How about the satanic influence over the world that made it so bad?
        >
        > (Genesis 6:9-12) 9 This is the history of Noah. Noah was a righteous man. He proved himself faultless among his contemporaries. Noah walked with the [true] God. 10 In time Noah became father to three sons, Shem, Ham and Ja´pheth. 11 And the earth came to be ruined in the sight of the [true] God and the earth became filled with violence. 12 So God saw the earth and, look! it was ruined, because all flesh had ruined its way on the earth.
        >
        > What haoppened?
        >
        > (Genesis 6:4) 4 The Neph´i·lim proved to be in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of the [true] God continued to have relations with the daughters of men and they bore sons to them, they were the mighty ones who were of old, the men of fame.
        >
        > Demons walked the earth as men and had children. THEY became the rulers. Heavenly beings. They were removed as having any authority. Now do we see any thought similar today of the heavens being cleansed of bad angels, etc in any way???
        >
        > Revelation 12:7-9 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
        >
        > OK< now we have a clean or "new heavens". But what about the earth. Well remember what was said about the earth in Noah's day?
        >
        > 11 And the earth came to be ruined in the sight of the [true] God and the earth became filled with violence.
        >
        > Humm consider Revelation 11:18:
        >
        > (Revelation 11:18) 18 But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give [their] reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and to those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth."
        >
        > Yep the new heavens exists with Christ enthroned and about to cleans the earth by destroying evil ma and his works. No destruction of the planet anymore than a destruction of God's home. Just a destruction of cleansing of the evil.
        >
        > Hope this helps.
        >
        > abidenchrist09 abidenchrist09@... wrote: Exactly Paul, this is what I thought in reading about this, but it was always shot down as heresy, and so I waited patiently,,I look forward to hearing more on this, and I know your at work now, so thank you for answering at all, from there, it is appreciated. Lisa
        > --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, Paul Leonard anotherpaul2001@ wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi,
        > >
        > > I am at work now so just have time for a short note. I am sure others will answer also.
        > >
        > > Think about what and a New earth a New Heavens requires. Do the literal heavens where God , the angels, etc reside get destroyed and if so why? Where do they reside during the destruction?
        > >
        > > Or can it mean something OTHER than the literal destruction of the heavens and the earth?
        > >
        > > I will post a couple of verses later this evening to help, assuming many others do not beat me to it. :^)
        > >
        > > abidenchrist09 abidenchrist09@ wrote: Hi Paul, thank you. I typed a response to your message 10 minutes ago but it never showed up, guess yahoo is slow today. I have read quite a bit so far, but really the only thing for now that I ask your help on is where the Bible teaches a New Earth will come down, you see, many people told me through the years that , that verse simply refered to Jerusalem that would be destroyed and be made new later. I accepted that, so I wouldn't be argumentive, but it bothered me, because those verses really seem to teach there will be an actual New Earth and Heaven, could you expound on this? I'd appreciate it, thank you, Lisa
        > > --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, Paul Leonard anotherpaul2001@ wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Any questions, just ask.
        > > >
        > > > abidenchrist09 abidenchrist09@ wrote: Thx for the welcome. I guess finally my message came through. I've been reading alot in here and its very interesting reading. Lisa
        > > > --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, Paul Leonard anotherpaul2001@ wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Welcome
        > > > >
        > > > > abidenchrist09 abidenchrist09@ wrote: Hello, I was accepted into this group today (saturday), I found this group from a link in another group while checking out information on bible issues. I'm glad I found it, because I am quite interested in learning more about what JW's believe and why. I'm here to read and learn things, never to attack you, so I hope you accept me here. My name is Elisa, and I am an older woman, lets just say past 40, and I live in Arkansas, and am baptized for remission of sins as found in Acts 22:16 and Acts 2:38. I assure the owner of the group that my messages will be repectful always so no need to be approved. Thank you for accepting me, Elisa
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
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