Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: Who gets disfellowshipped and why?

Expand Messages
  • moto_bl
    There is a lot of misinformation and just plain outright lies out there about us. I commend you for appearing to desire to understand our beliefs and the
    Message 1 of 18 , Jan 30, 2008

      There is a lot of misinformation and just plain outright lies out there about us. I commend you for appearing to desire to understand our beliefs and the source of them (the Bible) and not simply take everything you hear at face value.

      Concerning your questions:

      You asked, "1) But then some people told me that you take the matter to the elders,
      leaders, pastors, and not go to the police. Is this true?"

      It is important to realize that elders today do not have divine authority to forgive serious wrongdoing in the sense of pronouncing a serious sinner clean in the eyes of Jehovah. This kind of forgiveness has to be on the basis of the ransom sacrifice, and only Jehovah can forgive on that basis. (See Psalm 32:5; Matthew 6:9, 12; and 1 John 1:9)

      The elders are not the police...that is not their job. If a situation occurs which requires the assistance of law enforcement, a Christian should consult the police...not the elders.

      Now, if someone in the Christian congregation unrepentantly practices grave sin, elders have the divine direction to apply the biblical practice of disfellowshipping the wrongdoer in order to keep the congregation clean and in good standing before God. (See 1 Corinthians 5:1-5, 11-13)

      2)You are caught smoking, drinking, or doing drugs that the doctor
      didn't prescribe. And then I was told that if it was a daughter or son of one of the
      leaders, then it was told to everyone that they wouldn't do it again
      but if not related, then they were kicked out.

      If you noticed, I used the phrase "unrepentantly practice" above. Being "caught" once doing the things mentioned above does not constitute a heart condition which typically accompanies one who "unrepentantly practices" something.

      But someone who unrepentantly practices the things you mentioned is not heeding the Bible counsel found in 2 Cor. 7:1 where it tells us to "cleanse ourselves of every defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in God's fear." Neither would they be heeding the counsel to "love your neighbor as yourself." (Mt. 22:3)

      These Bible principles hold true to everyone...no matter who they are related to. What you were told regarding this is contrary to this fact.

      3) If you dated or persued dating someone without the leader's
      permission.

      This is just more bad information that you received.

      Properly, courting should be carried on with marriage as its goal. And the Scriptures counsel us to marry "only in the Lord". (1 Corinthians 7:39) Under the Christian system of things, a believer is not cut off for marrying an unbeliever. However, what influence would the unbelieving mate have on the believer? What future would the unbeliever have if he or she did not change? Realizing this, one can see how serious dating can be. Though dating in itself is not a disfellowshipping offense, there is to be caution in avoiding fornication, which the Bible definitely rules out. Fornication is sexual intercourse by unmarried persons, including engaged couples. The Bible also warns against immorality and "uncleanness," which can take place during courtship. (Galatians 5:19-21)

      --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, "Serena" <serenaj92@...> wrote:
      >
      > I have some friends that told me some things about this religion that
      > I would like to hear for myself. You guys are true Jehovah's
      > witnesses I hope.
      > I was told some reasons why you would get disfellowshipped.
      > 1) You broke the law.
      > But then some people told me that you take the matter to the elders,
      > leaders, pastors, and not go to the police. Is this true?
      > 2)You are caught smoking, drinking, or doing drugs that the doctor
      > didn't perscribe.
      > And then I was told that if it was a daughter or son of one of the
      > leaders, then it was told to everyone that they wouldn't do it again
      > but if not related, then they were kicked out.
      > 3) If you dated or persued dating someone without the leader's
      > permission.
      > 4) If you were getting paid under the table and didn't pay your taxes
      > that only some kingdom halls ok'd this and some don't.
      >
      > Sometimes I wonder if this is just a church preferrence and its not
      > all. I don't know. I'm getting bombarded with stuff ever since I
      > said I was joined here and asking questions.
      >
      > What scriptures do you follow for these particular things like
      > smoking, drinking, dating, Oh and someone said that if you attend or
      > ask questions of another Christian religion then you could get kicked
      > out....I'm confused and concerned. Can you help? I like to know how
      > other religious beliefs teach and what is important to them or not.
      > Would I get disfellowshipped if I was one?
      >

    • Irene
      I m new to Jehovah s Witnesses. I ve been studying for about four months. I would suggest seeking out a JW to study with. They can and will answer all
      Message 2 of 18 , Jan 30, 2008
        I'm new to Jehovah's Witnesses.  I've been studying for about four months.  I would suggest seeking out a JW to study with.  They can and will answer all questions based on scriptures.  The thing I found out when I shared that I was studying JW is that Satan has a lot of people working for him.  Here I am thrilled that I found a religion that is true to the Bible and want to share with everyone.  It seems everyone I shared with suddenly became an expert on Jehovah's Witnesses.  Remember when you are seeking the Truth, Satan will be working overtime to keep you in his circle.  There is absolutely no pressures from my mentors for me to become a Jehovah's Witness.  They truly want to share the Truth.  It will be my decision to become a Jehovah's Witness when I feel I've gained the knowledge to proceed.  It's truly a wonderful Organization, and my life has been enriched by studying.  When my friends and family want to influence me, I remind myself that Satan rules this world.  My hope is for eternal life in Paradise so I will not listen to Satan.
         
        I'm sure many here will share with you the appropriate scriptures, etc.  Take a look at the Watch Tower web site.  They have a lot of information and of course this site, in the file section, is a blessing.    Just keep on seeking the Truth.  Start studying with a Jehovah's Witness, and attend the services.  You will not be disappointed.
         
        Irene
         
        -------Original Message-------
         
        From: Serena
        Date: 1/30/2008 12:14:03 PM
        Subject: [JWquestions-and_answers] Who gets disfellowshipped and why?
         
        I have some friends that told me some things about this religion that
        I would like to hear for myself.  You guys are true Jehovah's
        witnesses I hope.
        I was told some reasons why you would get disfellowshipped.
        1) You broke the law.
        But then some people told me that you take the matter to the elders,
        leaders, pastors, and not go to the police.  Is this true?
        2)You are caught smoking, drinking, or doing drugs that the doctor
        didn't perscribe.
        And then I was told that if it was a daughter or son of one of the
        leaders, then it was told to everyone that they wouldn't do it again
        but if not related, then they were kicked out.
        3) If you dated or persued dating someone without the leader's
        permission.
        4) If you were getting paid under the table and didn't pay your taxes
        that only some kingdom halls ok'd this and some don't.
         
        Sometimes I wonder if this is just a church preferrence and its not
        all.  I don't know.  I'm getting bombarded with stuff ever since I
        said I was joined here and asking questions.
         
        What scriptures do you follow for these particular things like
        smoking, drinking, dating, Oh and someone said that if you attend or
        ask questions of another Christian religion then you could get kicked
        out....I'm confused and concerned.  Can you help?  I like to know how
        other religious beliefs teach and what is important to them or not.
        Would I get disfellowshipped if I was one?
      • tik_of_totg
        It is very nice to hear from you, Irene. Great advice and well said! ... months. ... answer ... that ... Here I ... to ... an ... Truth, ... Witness ... It s
        Message 3 of 18 , Jan 30, 2008

             It is very nice to hear from you, Irene.

           
             Great advice and well said!


          --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, "Irene" <imclark@...> wrote:
          >
          > I'm new to Jehovah's Witnesses. I've been studying for about four months.
          > I would suggest seeking out a JW to study with. They can and will answer
          > all questions based on scriptures. The thing I found out when I shared that
          > I was studying JW is that Satan has a lot of people working for him. Here I
          > am thrilled that I found a religion that is true to the Bible and want to
          > share with everyone. It seems everyone I shared with suddenly became an
          > expert on Jehovah's Witnesses. Remember when you are seeking the Truth,
          > Satan will be working overtime to keep you in his circle. There is
          > absolutely no pressures from my mentors for me to become a Jehovah's Witness
          > They truly want to share the Truth. It will be my decision to become a
          > Jehovah's Witness when I feel I've gained the knowledge to proceed. It's
          > truly a wonderful Organization, and my life has been enriched by studying.
          > When my friends and family want to influence me, I remind myself that Satan
          > rules this world. My hope is for eternal life in Paradise so I will not
          > listen to Satan.
          >
          > I'm sure many here will share with you the appropriate scriptures, etc.
          > Take a look at the Watch Tower web site. They have a lot of information and
          > of course this site, in the file section, is a blessing. Just keep on
          > seeking the Truth. Start studying with a Jehovah's Witness, and attend the
          > services. You will not be disappointed.
          >
          > Irene

        • Irene
          Thank you. This forum has been a great research tool for me. It has provided me with great information to forward to those doubting my choices. Irene ...
          Message 4 of 18 , Jan 30, 2008
            Thank you.  This forum has been a great research tool for me.  It has provided me with great information to forward to those doubting my choices.
             
            Irene
             
            -------Original Message-------
             
            Date: 1/30/2008 6:05:38 PM
            Subject: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Who gets disfellowshipped and why?
             

               It is very nice to hear from you, Irene.

             
               Great advice and well said!
          • a_measured_brush
            Serena, I would like to comment on your statement: I like to know how other religious beliefs teach and what is important to them or not. Unlike most
            Message 5 of 18 , Jan 30, 2008

              Serena,

                        I would like to comment on your statement:

              " I like to know how
              other religious beliefs teach and what is important to them or not."

              Unlike most religions which discourages or outright bars it's members from talking to people of other religions we are just the opposite. When we work in harmony with the commission Jesus gave us to preach the good news and make disciples of people throughout the earth we come into contact with every religion and belief that there is. Do you think that we would have good results if we didn't listen to people explain their own beliefs and viewpoint? When we listen to others it helps us to discern how we might reason with them to help them understand the truth, and also the respectful attitude we display encourages them to show the same. and listen to our message. That is really all we ask. We want people to make an informed choice. If you think about it that is what Jehovah has done from the beginning. This is the principle of "free will".

              (Deuteronomy 30:19-20) 19 I do take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against YOU today, that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the malediction; and you must choose life in order that you may keep alive, you and your offspring, 20 by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice and by sticking to him; for he is your life and the length of your days, . . .

              (Revelation 22:17) 17 And the spirit and the bride keep on saying: "Come!" And let anyone hearing say: "Come!" And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life's water free.

              The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society prints a book titled "Mankind's' Search for God" which was compiled by researchers in different lands and it discusses in detail the history and beliefs of different religions. In addition to that there are many articles in the Watchtower and Awake on the same subject  We are certainly interested in what others believe, but the opposite is not true: it is others who do wish to listen to what we believe. If you consider that one of us is interested in what the truth is, and the other is not, then how can you tell the difference? Jehovah's Witnesses are willing to take great lengths and time to prove the basis of their beliefs and how these are all in harmony with the Bible. That isn't true of any other religion. For example the southern Baptist convention labels us as a "cult" and tell it's members not to talk to us, but those same Baptists are not interested in defending their beliefs, such as the Trinity, and immortality of the Soul, from the Bible. In fact, that is what they are trying to avoid because their beliefs conflict with what the Bible teaches.

              There is only one group of people that we will not talk to, or listen, and that is "Apostates." If you have a Bible concordance you can look up the word in it and see that we are following the Bible in this regard.

              Also, the Bible does not condemn drinking (i.e. alcohol), but what it does condemn is drunkenness.

            • Paul Leonard
              Hi Irene, I appreciate your post. Good info and it is good to hear of your progress. Irene wrote: I m
              Message 6 of 18 , Jan 30, 2008
                Hi Irene,

                I appreciate your post.

                Good info and it is good to hear of your progress.

                Irene <imclark@...> wrote:
                I'm new to Jehovah's Witnesses.  I've been studying for about four months.  I would suggest seeking out a JW to study with.  They can and will answer all questions based on scriptures.  The thing I found out when I shared that I was studying JW is that Satan has a lot of people working for him.  Here I am thrilled that I found a religion that is true to the Bible and want to share with everyone.  It seems everyone I shared with suddenly became an expert on Jehovah's Witnesses.  Remember when you are seeking the Truth, Satan will be working overtime to keep you in his circle.  There is absolutely no pressures from my mentors for me to become a Jehovah's Witness.  They truly want to share the Truth.  It will be my decision to become a Jehovah's Witness when I feel I've gained the knowledge to proceed.  It's truly a wonderful Organization, and my life has been enriched by studying.  When my friends and family want to influence me, I remind myself that Satan rules this world.  My hope is for eternal life in Paradise so I will not listen to Satan.
                 
                I'm sure many here will share with you the appropriate scriptures, etc.  Take a look at the Watch Tower web site.  They have a lot of information and of course this site, in the file section, is a blessing.    Just keep on seeking the Truth.  Start studying with a Jehovah's Witness, and attend the services.  You will not be disappointed.
                 
                Irene
                 
                -------Original Message----- --
                 
                From: Serena
                Date: 1/30/2008 12:14:03 PM
                Subject: [JWquestions- and_answers] Who gets disfellowshipped and why?
                 
                I have some friends that told me some things about this religion that
                I would like to hear for myself.  You guys are true Jehovah's
                witnesses I hope.
                I was told some reasons why you would get disfellowshipped.
                1) You broke the law.
                But then some people told me that you take the matter to the elders,
                leaders, pastors, and not go to the police.  Is this true?
                2)You are caught smoking, drinking, or doing drugs that the doctor
                didn't perscribe.
                And then I was told that if it was a daughter or son of one of the
                leaders, then it was told to everyone that they wouldn't do it again
                but if not related, then they were kicked out.
                3) If you dated or persued dating someone without the leader's
                permission.
                4) If you were getting paid under the table and didn't pay your taxes
                that only some kingdom halls ok'd this and some don't.
                 
                Sometimes I wonder if this is just a church preferrence and its not
                all.  I don't know.  I'm getting bombarded with stuff ever since I
                said I was joined here and asking questions.
                 
                What scriptures do you follow for these particular things like
                smoking, drinking, dating, Oh and someone said that if you attend or
                ask questions of another Christian religion then you could get kicked
                out....I'm confused and concerned.  Can you help?  I like to know how
                other religious beliefs teach and what is important to them or not.
                Would I get disfellowshipped if I was one?

              • Irene
                Paul, Thank you. It s great to find Christians that want to share the truth. I m making progress, but I still have a lot to learn. Irene ... From: Paul
                Message 7 of 18 , Jan 30, 2008
                  Paul,
                   
                  Thank you.  It's great to find Christians that want to share the truth.  I'm making progress, but I still have a lot to learn.
                   
                  Irene
                   
                  -------Original Message-------
                   
                  Date: 1/30/2008 9:59:56 PM
                  Subject: Re: [JWquestions-and_answers] Who gets disfellowshipped and why?
                   
                  Hi Irene,

                  I appreciate your post.

                  Good info and it is good to hear of your progress.

                   
                  FREE  Animations for your email - By IncrediMail! Click Here!
                • helen107024
                  The congregation of Jehovah s Witnesses is a loving provision from Jehovah. The Elders are qualified spiritually to take the lead, however they are men.
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jan 31, 2008
                    The congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses is a loving provision from
                    Jehovah. The Elders are qualified spiritually to take the lead,
                    however they are men. Jehovah's organisation has had a lot of Bad
                    Press in light of some issues that have gone to press. If any person
                    commits a wrong, they are condemned. If a person who happens to have
                    been a witness commits wrong - fingers are pointed at the witnesses.

                    The organisation does not tolerate wrongdoing. Elders work hard to
                    offer advice, and help ones that have fallen. However unrepentant
                    sinners, ones that commit adultery/fornication/homosexuality are
                    practiced condemned in the bible.

                    1Timothy 1:9,10 in the knowledge of this fact, that law is
                    promulgated, not for a righteous man, but for persons lawless and
                    unruly, ungodly and sinners, lacking loving-kindness, and profane,
                    murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, manslayers,
                    10 fornicators, men who lie with males, kidnappers, liars, false
                    swearers, and whatever other thing is in opposition to the healthful
                    teaching

                    The Elders are not out to catch anyone out. They want us to remain
                    in God's Love. In his fold, and not stray into the cold as it were.
                    (Jude 21 keep yourselves in God's love, while YOU are waiting for
                    the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ with everlasting life in view.)

                    Each witness has an accountability to Jehovah. There is no
                    distinction or favouritism in the organisation. A Disfellowshipping
                    or cutting off is the last resort, and is only taken if the one
                    concerned fails to demonstrate a repentant attitude, to turn around
                    and change - demonstrating works that befit repentance.

                    In conclusion I would like to quote one more scripture. Wise council
                    indeed which we can keep in mind.

                    Ephesians 5:6-9 Let no man deceive YOU with empty words, for because
                    of the aforesaid things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of
                    disobedience. 7 Therefore do not become partakers with them; 8 for
                    YOU were once darkness, but YOU are now light in connection with
                    [the] Lord. Go on walking as children of light, 9 for the fruitage of
                    the light consists of every sort of goodness and righteousness and
                    truth.

                    Christian love
                    Helen


                    > I have some friends that told me some things about this religion
                    that
                    > I would like to hear for myself. You guys are true Jehovah's
                    > witnesses I hope.
                    > I was told some reasons why you would get disfellowshipped.
                    > 1) You broke the law.
                    > But then some people told me that you take the matter to the
                    elders,
                    > leaders, pastors, and not go to the police. Is this true?
                    > 2)You are caught smoking, drinking, or doing drugs that the doctor
                    > didn't perscribe.
                    > And then I was told that if it was a daughter or son of one of the
                    > leaders, then it was told to everyone that they wouldn't do it
                    again
                    > but if not related, then they were kicked out.
                    > 3) If you dated or persued dating someone without the leader's
                    > permission.
                    > 4) If you were getting paid under the table and didn't pay your
                    taxes
                    > that only some kingdom halls ok'd this and some don't.
                    >
                    > Sometimes I wonder if this is just a church preferrence and its not
                    > all. I don't know. I'm getting bombarded with stuff ever since I
                    > said I was joined here and asking questions.
                    >
                    > What scriptures do you follow for these particular things like
                    > smoking, drinking, dating, Oh and someone said that if you attend
                    or
                    > ask questions of another Christian religion then you could get
                    kicked
                    > out....I'm confused and concerned. Can you help? I like to know
                    how
                    > other religious beliefs teach and what is important to them or
                    not.
                    > Would I get disfellowshipped if I was one?
                    >
                  • Steve Klemetti
                    ... Well, that is the proper way to get answers. ... Which law? Man s or God s? A person is not removed from the congregation for only breaking certain laws
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jan 31, 2008
                      Serena wrote:
                      >
                      > >I have some friends that told me some things about this religion that
                      > >I would like to hear for myself. You guys are true Jehovah's
                      > >witnesses I hope.
                      >




                      Well, that is the proper way to get answers.

                      > >I was told some reasons why you would get disfellowshipped.
                      > >1) You broke the law.
                      > >But then some people told me that you take the matter to the elders,
                      > >leaders, pastors, and not go to the police. Is this true?
                      >





                      Which law? Man's or God's? A person is not removed from the
                      congregation for only breaking certain laws of man's unless it also violates God's
                      law or puts the congregation in disrepute for noteriety over the
                      incident.

                      It is a person's choice whether to take a matter to qualified spiritual
                      shepherds or to the police. If one needs protection, one should go
                      to the police, but since the system is so screwed up that people
                      want some guidance as to how to proceed with matters.

                      >2)You are caught smoking, drinking, or doing drugs that the doctor
                      >didn't perscribe.

                      Nothing wrong with taking (over the counter) drugs that a doctor did not prescribe if
                      one has a use and does it properly. Doctors are expensive and
                      people know what they need.

                      Smoking is bad and dirty. that is the reason that it is outlawed.
                      Alcohol has its uses when controlled, excesses are wrong.

                      >And then I was told that if it was a daughter or son of one of the
                      >leaders, then it was told to everyone that they wouldn't do it again
                      >but if not related, then they were kicked out.

                      That has sometimes happened and thus the claim. But that is not
                      the policy or procedure.

                      >3) If you dated or persued dating someone without the leader's
                      >permission.

                      No permission is needed unless under 18.

                      >4) If you were getting paid under the table and didn't pay your taxes
                      >that only some kingdom halls ok'd this and some don't.

                      It depends. But how would anyone know?

                      >Sometimes I wonder if this is just a church preferrence and its not
                      >all. I don't know. I'm getting bombarded with stuff ever since I
                      >said I was joined here and asking questions.

                      That goes back to where you get your information.

                      >What scriptures do you follow for these particular things like
                      >smoking, drinking, dating,

                      One need not even have to use scriptures for things like that. Don't you hear enough
                      in the news, Dr. Phil, etc about the problems with those things.

                      Don't focus on the disfellowshipping...rather, focus on
                      the principles behind it. Focus on that which is virtuous and there won't
                      be problems in that area.

                      >Oh and someone said that if you attend or
                      >ask questions of another Christian religion then you could get kicked
                      >out....I'm confused and concerned. Can you help? I like to know how
                      >other religious beliefs teach and what is important to them or not.
                      >Would I get disfellowshipped if I was one?

                      No, asking questions is not wrong, just the manner one does it.
                    • Serena
                      I want to thank you all for your answers to my question. These are questions that I posted earlier and answers that I was given with a few more questions. I
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jan 31, 2008
                        I want to thank you all for your answers to my question.
                        These are questions that I posted earlier and answers that I was
                        given with a few more questions. I hope I'm not being a pest.

                        On the question of dating I recieved a good answer but it struck
                        another question. If you are a JW and marry a nonmember and if that nonmember doens't convert and they have
                        marital problems, could the JW get a divorce in the sight of God? I have never found a scripture that says God allows divorce if the nonbeliever never converts.

                        There was another comment that most religions tell their
                        congregations to not talk to you guys. My church cautions us about
                        talking to jws. They don't tell us we can't. So I do belong to a
                        church that isn't in that 'most' catagory.

                        Bear with me in this letter because as I'm writing it, I am also
                        reading the replies from other members.

                        In another reply an answer was:
                        Each witness has an accountability to Jehovah. There is no
                        distinction or favouritism in the organisation. A Disfellowshipping
                        or cutting off is the last resort, and is only taken if the one
                        concerned fails to demonstrate a repentant attitude, to turn around
                        and change - demonstrating works that befit repentance.

                        In another reply, if I may shorten it a bit for context,
                        The person commiting the wrongdoing is taken before the elders, the
                        elders decide what happens next.

                        Can a person, in many cases of women, when taken in front of the elders, just act or overreact (with tears or fear) and not get disfellowshipped? Is this true?

                        In another reply my question was, if you broke the law, would you get
                        disfellowshipped?
                        An answer was presented to me:
                        Which law? Man's or God's? A person is not removed from the
                        congregation for only breaking certain laws of man's unless it also
                        violates God's law or puts the congregation in disrepute for
                        noteriety over the incident.

                        The bible states that governments were put here to make laws by God.
                        So doesn't that include all laws, even man-made?
                        The church I attend stresses that we obey the laws of the governments
                        because it is written. See also cross references to Romans 13:1-3
                        that I have provided below. Doesn't JWs believe this should be a
                        priority? There was another statement from one of the members who
                        has only started with you that Satan is the ruler of this system. Do
                        you believe that Satan rules the Governments? The bible says God has
                        control over that (again see cross referrences). Or did I
                        misunderstand? I'm sorry but I'm taking that person's statement not
                        so literal since they are new but I still feel I should ask.

                        Romans 13:1-3
                        [ Be Subject to Government ] 1Every person is to be in subjection to
                        the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God,
                        and those which exist are established by God.
                        2Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of
                        God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon
                        themselves. 3For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior,
                        but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is
                        good and you will have praise from the same;

                        Romans 13:1 : Titus 3:1; 1 Pet 2:13; Dan 2:21; 4:17; John 19:11;
                        1 Pet 2:14

                        I thank you very much for your time. I'm looking forward to your
                        answers. All of you have cleared up a lot of things for me.
                      • Paul Leonard
                        Hi, See below: Serena wrote: I want to thank you all for your answers to my question. These are questions
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jan 31, 2008
                          Hi,

                          See below:

                          Serena <serenaj92@...> wrote:
                          I want to thank you all for your answers to my question.
                          These are questions that I posted earlier and answers that I was
                          given with a few more questions. I hope I'm not being a pest.
                          A.P. Nope, not a pest.

                          On the question of dating I recieved a good answer but it struck
                          another question. If you are a JW and marry a nonmember and if that nonmember doens't convert and they have
                          marital problems, could the JW get a divorce in the sight of God? I have never found a scripture that says God allows divorce if the nonbeliever never converts.
                          A.P. A person may elect to get a divorce ONLY on the grounds of adultery. The partner being a non Witness has no impact on it. Now a legal separation due to physical abuse, emotional abuse or spiritual abuse, is up to the person.

                          There was another comment that most religions tell their
                          congregations to not talk to you guys. My church cautions us about
                          talking to jws. They don't tell us we can't. So I do belong to a
                          church that isn't in that 'most' catagory.
                          A.P. Keep in mind that we are told to talk to all members of other churches. After all how can a person carry out their personal/individual obligation to obey the "Great Commission" in Matt 28: 18,19 if they avoid talking to those not of their church?

                          Bear with me in this letter because as I'm writing it, I am also
                          reading the replies from other members.

                          In another reply an answer was:
                          Each witness has an accountability to Jehovah. There is no
                          distinction or favouritism in the organisation. A Disfellowshipping
                          or cutting off is the last resort, and is only taken if the one
                          concerned fails to demonstrate a repentant attitude, to turn around
                          and change - demonstrating works that befit repentance.

                          In another reply, if I may shorten it a bit for context,
                          The person commiting the wrongdoing is taken before the elders, the
                          elders decide what happens next.

                          Can a person, in many cases of women, when taken in front of the elders, just act or overreact (with tears or fear) and not get disfellowshipped? Is this true?
                          A.P.  I suppose some may try. However it is not simply their reaction at a meeting or meetings with the elders that is determinative. Rather their over all attitude, behavior after the sin and a critical point of being able to pray to God. Tears can indicate feelings, but by themselves they do not indicate repentance. Elders are careful in cases like this. On the other hand some people show no emotion at all. That is not an indication they are not repentant either. Each person and case is unique and treated that way.
                          In another reply my question was, if you broke the law, would you get
                          disfellowshipped?
                          An answer was presented to me:
                          Which law? Man's or God's? A person is not removed from the
                          congregation for only breaking certain laws of man's unless it also
                          violates God's law or puts the congregation in disrepute for
                          noteriety over the incident.

                          The bible states that governments were put here to make laws by God.
                          So doesn't that include all laws, even man-made?
                          A.P. If you get a speeding ticket should you be tossed out of your church? As An example; Paul did not obey the Law of Rome in reporting a run away slave, Onesimus, as he should have. The congregation took no action either. No serious sin was committed against God. A person can only be disfellowshipped for an activity/action that is specifically mentioned in scripture as sanctionable. Consider:
                          (1 Corinthians 6:9-11) 9 What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of YOU were. But YOU have been washed clean, but YOU have been sanctified, but YOU have been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.

                          Traffic tickets or other "minor" infractions are up to Caesar/the Governments to punish.

                          The church I attend stresses that we obey the laws of the governments
                          because it is written. See also cross references to Romans 13:1-3
                          that I have provided below. Doesn't JWs believe this should be a
                          priority? There was another statement from one of the members who
                          has only started with you that Satan is the ruler of this system. Do
                          you believe that Satan rules the Governments? The bible says God has
                          control over that (again see cross referrences) . Or did I
                          misunderstand? I'm sorry but I'm taking that person's statement not
                          so literal since they are new but I still feel I should ask.
                          A.P. We should obey the Governments as long as their laws do not contradict God's laws. However unless it is a law that is similar or the same as one of God's laws with a sanction, it is up to the Governments to enforce it and punish law breakers. Now if someone regularly was breaking such laws then things may change. As an example and elder that gets a couple of speeding tickets is subject to removal as an elder.

                          Satan is the ruler according to God's word. God allows him certain unfettered activities. The Governments are under Satan, though God may at times interfere in their plans, as he so choses. Remember Satan offered all the kingdoms of the earth to Jesus. No temptation, unless Satan controlled them and could give them. Satan ruled Rome as it were, but that was no excuse not to obey the Laws, as long as they did not conflict with God's laws. Ditto today.


                          I thank you very much for your time. I'm looking forward to your
                          answers. All of you have cleared up a lot of things for me.
                          A.P. No problem.
                          Just let us know of the answers you receive make sense.

                        • tik_of_totg
                          Hi Serena! Concerning your question about Satan: The apostle John said that the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one. (1 John 5:19)
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jan 31, 2008
                             Hi Serena!
                            Concerning your question about Satan:
                             
                               The apostle John said that "the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one."(1 John 5:19)
                             
                               Jesus said that Satan is "the ruler of the world." (John 14:30; Matthew 4:1-11)
                             
                               When Satan lied about the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, Satan implied that as free moral agents, Adam and Eve should have complete self-determination. (Genesis 3:1-5) This action raised critical issues concerning God's way of ruling. So Jehovah has allowed time for these issues to be settled. This means that Satan has been allowed to continue living for a while and while confined to earth, he now only has "a short period of time" to "mislead the entire inhabited earth". (Revelation 12:9-12)
                             
                               So, when Rom. 13:1-3 says, "For there is no authority except from God,
                            and those which exist are established by God," even though many of these authorities may be actively against God's principles, God has allowed these authorities to exist. And soon He will establish His ultimate authority over them when "God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite." (Dan. 2:44)
                             
                               For much more information about what the Bible says about who Satan is and his role in world affairs today, see:
                             

                             

                            --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, "Serena" <serenaj92@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I want to thank you all for your answers to my question.
                            >There was another statement from one of the members who
                            > has only started with you that Satan is the ruler of this system. Do
                            > you believe that Satan rules the Governments? The bible says God has
                            > control over that (again see cross referrences). Or did I
                            > misunderstand? I'm sorry but I'm taking that person's statement not
                            > so literal since they are new but I still feel I should ask.
                            >
                            > Romans 13:1-3
                            > [ Be Subject to Government ] 1Every person is to be in subjection to
                            > the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God,
                            > and those which exist are established by God.
                            > 2Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of
                            > God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon
                            > themselves. 3For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior,
                            > but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is
                            > good and you will have praise from the same;
                            >
                            > Romans 13:1 : Titus 3:1; 1 Pet 2:13; Dan 2:21; 4:17; John 19:11;
                            > 1 Pet 2:14
                            >
                            > I thank you very much for your time. I'm looking forward to your
                            > answers. All of you have cleared up a lot of things for me.
                            >

                          • Steve Klemetti
                            ... Actually people can get divorces. That is just a personal decision and a legal situation. It is just that they can not get remarried without adultery
                            Message 13 of 18 , Feb 1, 2008
                              Paul Leonard wrote:

                              Hi,

                              See below:

                              Serena <serenaj92@yahoo. com> wrote:

                              I want to thank you all for your answers to my question.
                              These are questions that I posted earlier and answers that I was
                              given with a few more questions. I hope I'm not being a pest.
                              A.P. Nope, not a pest.

                              On the question of dating I recieved a good answer but it struck
                              another question. If you are a JW and marry a nonmember and if that nonmember doens't convert and they have
                              marital problems, could the JW get a divorce in the sight of God? I have never found a scripture that says God allows divorce if the nonbeliever never converts.
                              A.P. A person may elect to get a divorce ONLY on the grounds of adultery. The partner being a non Witness has no impact on it. Now a legal separation due to physical abuse, emotional abuse or spiritual abuse, is up to the person.























                              Actually people can get divorces.  That is just a personal decision
                              and a legal situation.  It is just that they can not get remarried without adultery being involved
                              in the prior marriage.  But one should not have a frivilous reason for divorcing.  It is not congregational
                              unless that is the case.  If one gets a divorce for frivilous reasons, one would not have
                              privileges in the congregation.  Since all cases  different, no more can be said about it.



                            • Paul Leonard
                              Hi Steve, That is correct. However it is rarely done here in the US. In some countries it is actually necessary to get a divorce rather than a separation for
                              Message 14 of 18 , Feb 1, 2008
                                Hi Steve,

                                That is correct. However it is rarely done here in the US. In some countries it is actually necessary to get a divorce rather than a separation for legal reasons dealing with debt and liability, etc.

                                There have been some who for frivolous reasons have gotten divorces here, but they cannot re marry as you point out.

                                Steve Klemetti <sklemetti@...> wrote:
                                Paul Leonard wrote:
                                Hi,

                                See below:

                                Serena <serenaj92@yahoo. com> wrote:
                                I want to thank you all for your answers to my question.
                                These are questions that I posted earlier and answers that I was
                                given with a few more questions. I hope I'm not being a pest.
                                A.P. Nope, not a pest.

                                On the question of dating I recieved a good answer but it struck
                                another question. If you are a JW and marry a nonmember and if that nonmember doens't convert and they have
                                marital problems, could the JW get a divorce in the sight of God? I have never found a scripture that says God allows divorce if the nonbeliever never converts.
                                A.P. A person may elect to get a divorce ONLY on the grounds of adultery. The partner being a non Witness has no impact on it. Now a legal separation due to physical abuse, emotional abuse or spiritual abuse, is up to the person.



                                Actually people can get divorces.  That is just a personal decision
                                and a legal situation.  It is just that they can not get remarried without adultery being involved
                                in the prior marriage.  But one should not have a frivilous reason for divorcing.  It is not congregational
                                unless that is the case.  If one gets a divorce for frivilous reasons, one would not have
                                privileges in the congregation.  Since all cases  different, no more can be said about it.




                              • a_measured_brush
                                Serena, This is in regard to the question of obedience to secular authorities. We refer to this as relative subjection . First of all look at something Jesus
                                Message 15 of 18 , Feb 1, 2008
                                  Serena,
                                  This is in regard to the question of obedience to secular
                                  authorities. We refer to this as "relative subjection". First of all
                                  look at something Jesus said when he was questioned about paying
                                  taxes:

                                  (Matthew 22:19-21) 19 Show me the head tax coin." They brought him a
                                  de·nar´i·us. 20 And he said to them: "Whose image and inscription is
                                  this?" 21 They said: "Caesar's." Then he said to them: "Pay back,
                                  therefore, Caesar's things to Caesar, but God's things to God."
                                  We believe that we have an obligation, according to the scriptures,
                                  to pay back to whom it is owing. The secular government prints and
                                  distributes a currency and asks back a portion of that in the form of
                                  taxes, and in return we are supplied with government services, and
                                  whether we agree with everything the government does we still have an
                                  obligation to pay our taxes. From God we receive our life and we owe
                                  our life and allegiance to him. If we give our life to a country then
                                  we are stealing from God, and no country can resurrect the dead; thus
                                  giving our life back to us. Look again at what Romans chapter 13
                                  says. Sometimes to understand what a scripture is talking about you
                                  need to look at the context and consider how it affects the meaning.
                                  (Romans 13:5-7) 5 There is therefore compelling reason for YOU people
                                  to be in subjection, not only on account of that wrath but also on
                                  account of [YOUR] conscience. 6 For that is why YOU are also paying
                                  taxes; for they are God's public servants constantly serving this
                                  very purpose. 7 Render to all their dues, to him who [calls for] the
                                  tax, the tax; to him who [calls for] the tribute, the tribute; to him
                                  who [calls for] fear, such fear; to him who [calls for] honor, such
                                  honor.

                                  There are three things that Christians owe to the secular
                                  goverment:tax, tribute, and honor. In general we are the most law
                                  abiding people on earth, but there are times when a Christian should
                                  not obey the secular authority. The apostles did not always obey the
                                  government and they ended up in prison a number of times because of
                                  this. Consider one instance:

                                  (Acts 5:27-30) 27 So they brought them and stood them in the
                                  San´he·drin hall. And the high priest questioned them 28 and
                                  said: "We positively ordered YOU not to keep teaching upon the basis
                                  of this name, and yet, look! YOU have filled Jerusalem with YOUR
                                  teaching, and YOU are determined to bring the blood of this man upon
                                  us." 29 In answer Peter and the [other] apostles said: "We must obey
                                  God as ruler rather than men."

                                  Like the first century, the secular authority, sometimes under
                                  pressure from the clergy, has banned or restricted the preaching work
                                  that we have been commanded to do by God:

                                  *** br84 p. 23 Watch Tower Society Defends the Good News in the
                                  Courts ***From 1935 to 1950 there were some 10,000 arrests and 190
                                  cases taken up on appeal. There were 28 different kinds of laws in
                                  hundreds of towns that were rendered invalid, and a total of 150
                                  state supreme court cases were won. By 1955 the United States Supreme
                                  Court had decided 50 cases involving Jehovah's Witnesses, resulting
                                  in 23 favorable decisions involving 37 cases and 10 unfavorable
                                  decisions involving 13 cases. On two occasions the Supreme Court
                                  reversed itself in favor of Jehovah's Witnesses.

                                  Let's go back to the wording of Romans 13:1
                                  (Romans 13:1) 13 Let every soul be in subjection to the superior
                                  authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing
                                  authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God.
                                  Does that mean that God has appointed each authority and that that
                                  they do his will? That certainly wasn't the case in the first century
                                  since the secular authority put God's own Son to death, and then
                                  fought bitterly against his servants. That is because God has allowed
                                  Satan to rule the world for a period of time with little interference
                                  from him.

                                  (Luke 4:5-6) 5 So he brought him up and showed him all the kingdoms
                                  of the inhabited earth in an instant of time; 6 and the Devil said to
                                  him: "I will give you all this authority and the glory of them,
                                  because it has been delivered to me, and to whomever I wish I give it.
                                  (John 12:31) 31 Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler
                                  of this world will be cast out.

                                  (John 14:29-30) . . .. 30 I shall not speak much with YOU anymore,
                                  for the ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me,
                                  (1 John 5:19) 19 We know we originate with God, but the whole world
                                  is lying in the [power of the] wicked one.

                                  The scripture in Daniel 4:17 is a prophecy concerning God's Kingdom
                                  and his appointed King: Christ Jesus. It has nothing to do with being
                                  in subjection to the secular authorities.

                                  In the United States if a federal law conflicts with a state law
                                  which are you supposed to obey? Legally you are supposed to obey the
                                  higher authority. The secular authorities do not recognize Jehovah
                                  and his laws, but as Christians we do, and when there is a conflict
                                  we obey the higher authority. Sometimes to be loyal to God we have to
                                  disobey the secular ruler. Jochebed disobeyed the ruler of her time.
                                  Moses, a "divinely beautiful" child, was spared from Pharaoh's
                                  genocidal decree commanding the destruction of every newborn Hebrew
                                  male. He was hidden by his mother for three months, then placed in a
                                  papyrus ark among the reeds by the bank of the Nile River, where
                                  Pharaoh's daughter found him. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego
                                  (Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah) disobeyed the King of Babylon and
                                  refused to bow down to the image he set up, and Daniel dis-obeyed the
                                  law which told him not to pray to Jehovah. These are just a few
                                  examples in the Bible.

                                  I personally know men who served prison time during the Vietnam war
                                  because as Christians they refused to kill their fellow man:
                                  preferring to obey God as ruler and respect his view of life. If you
                                  go to the national Holocaust museum you will see that Jehovah's
                                  Witnesses, who were identified with a purple triangle, were not only
                                  in the German concentration camps for refusing to either take part in
                                  the military or to hail Hitler as their savoir. They were the only
                                  people who could have left at any time by signing a paper, but very
                                  few of them choose to do so. While other religions, including
                                  Mormons, supported Hitler, and joined his military to fight against
                                  and kill even members of their own religion.
                                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.