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Re: Questions from Readers

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  • teddy_trueblood
    From 1992 Watchtower: CERTAIN translations of Hebrews 1:6 say: Let all the angels of God worship him [Jesus]. (King James Version; The Jerusalem Bible) The
    Message 1 of 25 , Jan 23, 2008
       
      From 1992 Watchtower:
       
      CERTAIN translations of Hebrews 1:6 say: "Let all the angels of God worship him [Jesus]." (King James Version; The Jerusalem Bible) The apostle Paul evidently quoted the Septuagint, which says at Psalm 97:7: "Worship Him [God] all ye His angels." - C. Thomson.
       
        The Greek word pro-sky-ne-o, rendered "worship" at Hebrews 1:6, is used at Psalm 97:7 in the Septuagint for a Hebrew term, sha-chah, meaning "to bow down."  This can be an acceptable act of respect for humans. (Genesis 23:7; 1 Samuel 24:8; 2 Kings 2:15) Or it can relate to worship of the true God or that wrongly directed to false gods. - Exodus 23:24; 24:1; 34:14; Deuteronomy 8:19.
       
        Usually pro-sky-ne-o given to Jesus corresponds with obeisance to kings and others. (Compare Matthew 2:2, 8; 8:2; 9:18; 15:25; 20:20 with 1 Samuel 25:23, 24; 2 Samuel 14:4-7; 1 Kings 1:16; 2 Kings 4:36, 37.)  Often it is clear that obeisance is rendered to Jesus not as God but as "God's Son" or the Messianic "Son of man." - Matthew 14:32, 33; Luke 24:50-52; John 9:35, 38.
       
        Hebrews 1:6 relates to Jesus' position under God. (Philippians 2:9-11) Here some versions render pro-sky-ne-o  "pay . . . homage" (The New English Bible), "do obeisance to"  (New World Translation), or "bow before" (An American Translation [and Young's Literal Translation]). If one prefers the rendering "worship," such worship is relative, for Jesus told Satan: "It is Jehovah your God you must worship [form of pro-sky-ne-o], and it is to him alone you must render sacred service."  - Matthew 4:8-10.
       
        Though Psalm 97:7, which speaks about worshiping God, was applied to Christ at Hebrews 1:6, Paul had shown that the resurrected Jesus is "the reflection of [God's] glory and the exact representation of his very being."  (Hebrews 1:1-3)  So any "worship" the angels give God's Son is relative and is directed through him to Jehovah. -  15 Jan. 1992 WT, p. 23.
      .................................................
      So, to be accurate, the writer of Hebrews (who we understand to be Paul) has 'spoken' most of the words at Heb. 1:1-6.  Here is a clarified interpretation showing who is 'speaking':
       
      Writer of Hebrews says (writes) all of Heb. 1-4.  He continues with the first part of verse 5 with, "For to which of the angels did He (God) ever say," Then Paul quotes Ps. 2:7 where Jehovah says concerning the Messiah: 'Thou art My Son, Today I have begotten thee.' 
       
      And then Paul quotes 2 Sam. 7:14 where Jehovah is speaking of Solomon (and in a further sense of the Messiah): "I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to me"
       
      In verse 6 the writer of Hebrews says "And when he (God) again brings the first-born into the world, he (God) says": [The writer of Hebrews then continues by quoting Moses' words at Deut. 32:43 in the Septuagint (but not in the Hebrew scriptures)]: "And let all the angels of God Worship him [God]."  The writer of Hebrews has interpreted the words originally applied to Jehovah by Moses as now being applied to the Messiah as explained in the WT article above.
       
      So we have the writer of Hebrews (Paul) saying all of Hebrews 1:1-4 and the first part of verse 5.

      The first two quotes from the OT are Jehovah speaking about the Messiah becoming His son. 
       
      The final quote by Paul was originally by Moses speaking of Jehovah (who is shown by the first two quotes to be God, not the Messiah).  To explain the apparent contradiction of this last quote, the WT Society has explained as shown above.
       
      At any rate, the Father (Jehovah - Is. 64:8) originally said only the first two quotes which are found in verse 5.
       
      The last quote (in verse 6) was initially by Moses, but Paul ascribes them to Jehovah since Moses was a representative of Jehovah.  In a similar sense, Paul has taken the "him" (Jehovah in Moses' original statement) as the Messiah since the Messiah is the highest representative of Jehovah.
       
      The Son says nothing in these verses.

      --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, tik_of_totg <no_reply@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, tik_of_totg
      > no_reply@ wrote:
      > >
      > > Since the discussions from this group are available for veiwing by
      > > the public, occasional questions are sometimes received from members
      > and
      > > non-members about ongoing topics being considered here. These
      > questions
      > > usually do not make it to the discussion board because they are
      > > received via email or other means. Perhaps
      > > the best way to address these questions would be to post them here for
      > > discussion and proper consideration:
      >
      >
      >
      > Here is the latest of these questions (in blue):
      > "At Hebrews 1:1-6, did the Father originally say the words, and Jesus
      > repeated them starting at verse 2 and through at least to verse 6? If
      > the Father
      > said them originally, then at verse 6 he would have said, "and let all
      > of gods
      > angels worship me". But when the Son repeats it, he would say, "and let
      > all gods angels worship him".
      >
    • moto_bl
      Questions about God s Name: 1.) How exactly could one take God s name in vain? 2.) Is Jehovah the correct way to pronounce the divine name? 3.) Is the name
      Message 2 of 25 , Nov 6 5:13 PM

        Questions about God's Name:

        1.) How exactly could one take God's name in vain?

        2.) Is "Jehovah" the correct way to pronounce the divine name?

        3.) Is the name of God too holy to be pronounced and should the use of it be avoided?

        4.) Should the divine name not be read as written because of the spelling of the (intentional?) unvowelized consonants?

        5.) Does the fact that the exact pronunciation of the divine name is unknown mean that Christians should avoid using it?

        --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, tik_of_totg <no_reply@...> wrote:
        >
        > Since the discussions from this group are available for veiwing by
        > the public, occasional questions are sometimes received from members and
        > non-members about ongoing topics being considered here. These questions
        > usually do not make it to the discussion board because they are
        > received via email or other means. However, recently the
        > questions have begun building up in a short amount of time and perhaps
        > the best way to address these questions would be to post them here for
        > discussion and proper consideration: 1) "Do we really know what
        > God's name is?" 1a) "If we do know what God's name is, how is it
        > most likely to be pronounced?" 2) "Why do Jehovah's Witnesses
        > primarily use the New World Translation Bible?" 2a) "Why not just
        > use the King James Version?" 3) "How is the Watchtower Bible and
        > Tract Society's publication production/distribution and teaching work
        > financed?" 4) "What is meant at 2 Kings 2:11, 12 where the prophet
        > Elijah is described as "ascending in the windstorm to the heavens"?"
        >

      • Paul Leonard
        ________________________________ Hi, See below: Questions about God s Name: 1.) How exactly could one take God s name in vain? Use it in a worthless or
        Message 3 of 25 , Nov 7 4:59 PM



          Hi,

          See below:

           

          Questions about God's Name:

          1.) How exactly could one take God's name in vain?

          Use it in a worthless or derogatory way by word or deed.

          2.) Is "Jehovah" the correct way to pronounce the divine name?

          In English.

          3.) Is the name of God too holy to be pronounced and should the use of it be avoided?

          No.

          4.) Should the divine name not be read as written because of the spelling of the (intentional? ) unvowelized consonants?

          In Hebrew, if anyone speaks Biblical Hebrew.

          5.) Does the fact that the exact pronunciation of the divine name is unknown mean that Christians should avoid using it? 

          Nope as we do not know the exact pronunciation of "Jesus" in either Hebrew or Greek either. In fact how it would be pronounced in Greek could vary widely from say Athens, to Alexandria.

          --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, tik_of_totg <no_reply@...> wrote:
          >
          > Since the discussions from this group are available for veiwing by
          > the public, occasional questions are sometimes received from members and
          > non-members about ongoing topics being considered here. These questions
          > usually do not make it to the discussion board because they are
          > received via email or other means. However, recently the
          > questions have begun building up in a short amount of time and perhaps
          > the best way to address these questions would be to post them here for
          > discussion and proper consideration: 1) "Do we really know what
          > God's name is?" 1a) "If we do know what God's name is, how is it
          > most likely to be pronounced?" 2) "Why do Jehovah's Witnesses
          > primarily use the New World Translation Bible?" 2a) "Why not just
          > use the King James Version?" 3) "How is the Watchtower Bible and
          > Tract Society's publication production/distribu tion and teaching work
          > financed?" 4) "What is meant at 2 Kings 2:11, 12 where the prophet
          > Elijah is described as "ascending in the windstorm to the heavens"?"
          >

        • moto_bl
          The following is taken from Teddy s RDB Files: Jehovah - Importance of Name The Israelites used the only personal name of God profusely (in prayer, and
          Message 4 of 25 , Nov 9 4:52 PM

            The following is taken from Teddy's RDB Files: 

            Jehovah - Importance of Name

            The Israelites used the only personal name of God profusely (in prayer, and respectfully in everyday language [see end note] - see King David's words, for example). We are instructed in scripture to call upon that name and to invoke it.

            There is nothing wrong with also calling him 'Father,' but to completely ignore the name, as much of Christendom has, is scripturally wrong.

            Ex. 3:15

            -

            "Jehovah ... This is my name for ever; this is my title in every generation."- NEB.

            Jehovah, .... This is My name forever, and this is My memorial from generation to generation. - LITV (Green)

            "Jehovah, ...This is My name forever and by this I am to be remembered through all generations." - MLB.

            "Jehovah ... This is my eternal name, to be used throughout all generations." - LB.

            "Jehovah, ....This is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations." - Darby.

            "Jehovah, .... this [is] My name--to the age, and this My memorial, to generation--generation." - Young's.

            .................................

            1 Chron. 16:8 -

            "O give thanks unto Jehovah, call upon his name; Make known his doings among the peoples." - ASV.

            "Give thanks to Yahweh, call his name aloud, proclaim his deeds to the peoples [among the nations- NAB (1991); MLB; GNB; world - LB]." - NJB.

            "Give thanks unto Jehovah, call upon his name; Make known his acts among the peoples." - Darby.

            ...................................

            Is. 12:4 -

            "And in that day shall ye say, Give thanks unto Jehovah, call upon his name, declare his doings among the peoples, make mention that his name is exalted." - ASV.

            "And, that day, you will say, Praise Yahweh, invoke his name. Proclaim his deeds to the people [nations, RSV, NRSV, MLB, NAB (1991), GNB; worldLB], declare his name sublime." - NJB.

            "call his name aloud." - JB.

            "And in that day shall ye say, Give ye thanks to Jehovah, call upon his name, declare his deeds among the peoples, make mention that his name is exalted." - Darby.

            ..................................

            Zeph. 3:9 -

            "For then will I turn to the peoples a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of Jehovah, to serve him with one consent." - ASV.

            "Yes, then [the last days] I shall purge the lips of the peoples, so that all may invoke the name of Yahweh." - NJB, c.f. JB.

            "For then will I turn to the peoples a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of Jehovah, to serve him with one consent." - Darby

            ..................................

            Joel 2:26, 32 -

            "And ye ... shall praise the name of Jehovah your God .... And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Jehovah shall be delivered." - ASV.

            "You will ... praise the name of Yahweh your God .... All who call on [invoke- REB & NEB] the name of Yahweh will be saved" - JB & NJB.

            "And ye shall ... praise the name of Jehovah your God, who hath dealt wondrously with you: .... And it shall be that whosoever shall call upon the name of Jehovah shall be saved" - Darby.

            .................................

            Jer. 16:19, 21 -

            "O Jehovah [YHWH] ... unto thee shall the nations come from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Our fathers have inherited nought but lies ... and they will know that my name is Jehovah [YHWH]." - ASV.

            "and they shall know that My name is Jehovah." - KJIIV & MKJV.

            "Therefore, behold, I will this once cause them to know, I will cause them to know my hand and my might; and they shall know that my name is Jehovah." - Darby.

            ................................

            Zech. 13:9 -

            "They shall call upon my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people; and they shall say, Jehovah is my God." - ASV.

            "They shall call on My name, and I will answer them. I will say, It is My people, and they shall say, Jehovah is my God." - KJIIV.

            "They shall call on my name, and I will answer them: I will say, It is my people; and they shall say, Jehovah is my God." - Darby

            [Notice the parallelism: "They shall call upon my name" is paralleled with "Jehovah is my God."]

            ...............................

            Ezek. 39:7 -

            "And my holy name will I make known ... and the nations shall know that I am Jehovah" - ASV.

            "... and no longer allow my holy name to be profaned; and the nations will know that I am Yahweh" - NJB.

            "I will not suffer my holy name to be profaned any more: and the nations shall know that I [am] Jehovah, the Holy One in Israel." - Darby.

            ...............................

            Ps. 83:16-18

            "Fill their faces with shame; that they may seek thy name, [O YHWH]. let them be put to shame and perish .... that men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH [YHWH], art the most high over all the earth." - KJV.

            "Fill their faces with shame, that they may seek Your name .... Let them be ashamed and troubled forever; yea, let them be put to shame, and lost; so that men may know that Your name is JEHOVAH, that You alone are the Most High over all the earth." - MKJV.

            ...............................

            Ps. 135:13 -

            "Thy name, O Jehovah, endureth forever; Thy memorial name, O Jehovah, throughout all generations" - ASV.

            "Thy name, O Jehovah, is for ever; thy memorial, O Jehovah, from generation to generation." - Darby.

            "O Jehovah, your name endures forever" - LB.

            ...................................

            We are to know and use Jehovah's name, but we must not misunderstand how extremely important it is to Him (and to us). One of God's Ten Commandments, for example commands:

            "You shall not misuse the name of Yahweh your God, for Yahweh will not leave unpunished anyone who misuses his name." - Ex. 20:7, NJB [cf. NRSV, NIV, NEB, REB, GNB, NLV, ETRV].

            God certainly didn't say, "Don't ever use my Holy Name"! By direct Bible statements and commands and by the clear, thousand-fold repeated examples of all the prophets of God in the OT we know that God's Holy Name must be known and used by his people - for all generations. Instead, this Scripture shows the extreme importance of that name (would God really punish anyone who deceitfully misuses his name if that name weren't extremely important?) and that it must be used in a manner that shows its great importance.

            Notice how two of the most-respected, "orthodox," trinitarian Bible study publications address this extremely important issue:

            "Of primary significance is the name of Yahweh [or Jehovah] which he himself made known in his revelation (Gen. 17:1; Exod. 3:14 [and 3:15]; 6:2...). One of the most fundamental and essential features of the biblical revelation is the fact that God is not without a name: he has a personal name [Jehovah or Yahweh], by which he can, and is to be, invoked." - p. 649, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Vol. 2, Zondervan, 1986.

            And the New Bible Dictionary, Tyndale House Publ., 1984, after telling us on p. 812 that God changed his previously external relationship with mankind by revealing his PERSONAL NAME to his people and thereby established with them "the highly personal relationship to a God who has given his people the liberty to call him by name [Yahweh or Jehovah]," further states:

            "The name of God is described as his holy name more often than all other adjectival qualifications [titles, descriptions, etc.] taken together. It was this sense of the sacredness of the name that finally led to the obtuse [dull-witted, stupid] refusal to use  Yahweh, leading as it has done to a deep loss of the sense of the divine name in [English-language Bibles]." - p. 813, section d.

            Also, the trinitarian Today's Dictionary of the Bible (Bethany House, 1982) says:

            "Jehovah, the special and significant name (not merely an appellative title such as Lord [or God]) by which God revealed himself .... The Hebrew name Jehovah is generally translated [in most English Bibles] by the word LORD printed in small capitals to distinguish it from the [honest] rendering of the Hebrew Adonai and the Greek Kurios, which are also rendered "Lord" but in the usual type." - p. 330.

            Even trinitarian translator and scholar Jay P. Green writes in the Preface of his The Interlinear Bible:

            "The only personal name of God that belongs to Him alone was rendered Jehovah or, in its shortened form, Jah. We preferred the transliteration JHWH (thus Jehovah) over YHWH (or Yahweh) because this is established English usage for Bible names beginning with this letter (e.g., Jacob and Joseph). - p. v, Baker Book House, 1982.

            LITV (Green) - Malachi 2:2; 3:16 "If you will not hear, and if you will not set it on your heart to give glory to My name, says Jehovah of Hosts, then I will send the curse on you, .... Then those fearing Jehovah spoke together, each man to his neighbor. And Jehovah gave attention and heard. And a Book of Remembrance was written before Him for those who feared Jehovah, and for those esteeming His name. - Literal Translation Version.

            ASV - Ezekiel 39:6, 7 "And I will send a fire on Magog, and on them that dwell securely in the isles; and they shall know that I am Jehovah . And my holy name will I make known in the midst of my people Israel; neither will I suffer my holy name to be profaned any more: and the nations shall know that I am Jehovah." - American Standard Version.

            Bracketed information [ ] and emphasis have been added above.

            ...........................................

            End Note

            :

            We see that in the very first section of the Jewish Mishnah (Darby's translation) the decree that "a man should salute his fellow with [the use of] the Name [of God]," the example of Boaz (Ru 2:4) then being cited. - Berakhot 9:5.


             

            --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, moto_bl <no_reply@...> wrote:
            >
            > Questions about God's Name:
            >
            > 1.) How exactly could one take God's name in vain?
            >
            > 2.) Is "Jehovah" the correct way to pronounce the divine name?
            >
            > 3.) Is the name of God too holy to be pronounced and should the use of
            > it be avoided?
            >
            > 4.) Should the divine name not be read as written because of the
            > spelling of the (intentional?)unvowelized consonants?
            >
            > 5.) Does the fact that the exact pronunciation of the divine name is
            > unknown mean that Christians should avoid using it?

          • Marcus Ampe & Belgian Christadelphians
            ... How would you do that? How would it sound?
            Message 5 of 25 , Nov 11 9:34 AM
              moto_bl wrote:
               

              4.) Should the divine name not be read as written because of the spelling of the (intentional? ) unvowelized consonants?

              How would you do that? How would it sound?
            • Paul Leonard
              In what language? Hebrew or English or? ________________________________ From: Marcus Ampe & Belgian Christadelphians To:
              Message 6 of 25 , Nov 11 4:11 PM
                In what language?

                Hebrew or English or?


                From: Marcus Ampe & Belgian Christadelphians <marcus_ampe@...>
                To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wed, November 11, 2009 12:34:45 PM
                Subject: Re: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Questions from Readers

                 

                moto_bl wrote:

                 

                4.) Should the divine name not be read as written because of the spelling of the (intentional? ) unvowelized consonants?

                How would you do that? How would it sound?
              • Marcus Ampe & Belgian Christadelphians
                Paul Leonard /wrote/: / Is Jehovah the correct way to pronounce the divine name?//In English. /and I think in a lot of other languages as well. * /5.)/*/
                Message 7 of 25 , Nov 13 10:33 AM
                  Paul Leonard wrote:

                  "Is "Jehovah" the correct way to pronounce the divine name?In English." and I think in a lot of other languages as well.


                  "5.) Does the fact that the exact pronunciation of the divine name is unknown mean that Christians should avoid using it? 

                  Nope as we do not know the exact pronunciation of "Jesus" in either Hebrew or Greek either. In fact how it would be pronounced in Greek could vary widely from say Athens, to Alexandria." For the son of Jesus their is more difference in the many languages: Jesu, Chesu, Jezus, but Yeshua or Yashua would be the most rightly name. Though why change it to come to this general denominator? Best is that everybody uses the most common name for Jesus in their own language. But for The God it would be best that over all the world people would write that name the same, though the pronouncement would be (perhaps) different.
                   


                • Abdijah
                  The pronunciation of God s Name raises many discussions, with many points. In the ministry I have talked with those who say Jehovah cannot be correct for the
                  Message 8 of 25 , Nov 16 11:11 AM
                    The pronunciation of God's Name raises many discussions, with many points.

                    In the ministry I have talked with those who say "Jehovah" cannot be correct for the usual reasons (Hebrew doesn't have a "J", etc ...)
                    I would point out we speak English. They would point out that if John" goes to Mexico he is still "John" not "Juan."

                    I would point out that the Engish Bible has books called John, but in Spanish those same books are called Juan. They would point out those are just translations.

                    And so on yadayadayadayada....

                    I always wished I had a good Biblical example. I thought of some such as Saul became Paul; Peter, Simon, Cephas all the same purpose, but they did not quite prove the point the way I wished I could prove it.

                    Finally, I found the perfect biblical example. Someone in the Bible with their name used in two different languages interchangeably and it made no difference. Remember, everything in there is there for teaching, for setting things straight, etc. (2 Timothy 3:16, 17)

                    Ready? OK, here it is: Acts 9:36-40:

                    "But in Joppa there was a certain disciple named Tabitha, which, when translated, means Dorcas. She abounded in good deeds and gifts of mercy that she was rendering. But in those days she happened to fall sick and die. So they bathed her and laid her in an upper chamber. Now as Lydda was near Joppa, when the disciples heard that Peter was in this city they dispatched two men to him to entreat [him]: "Please do not hesitate to come on as far as us." At that Peter rose and went with them. And when he arrived, they led him up into the upper chamber; and all the widows presented themselves to him weeping and exhibiting many inner garments and outer garments that Dorcas used to make while she was with them. But Peter put everybody outside and, bending his knees, he prayed, and, turning to the body, he said: "Tabitha, rise!" She opened her eyes and, as she caught sight of Peter, she sat up."

                    Did you notice that? Right there in that one passage it calls her both Dorcas and Tabitha. You can see this very clearly if you read verses 39 and 40 together.

                    So, we can call our Gof Yahweh or Jehovah, or the same Name in another language, as long as it is to him we are referring. Otherwise, He wouldn't have inspired this example for us to consider.

                    --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, Paul Leonard <anotherpaul2001@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > In what language?
                    >
                    > Hebrew or English or?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: Marcus Ampe & Belgian Christadelphians <marcus_ampe@...>
                    > To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Wed, November 11, 2009 12:34:45 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Questions from Readers
                    >
                    >
                    > moto_bl wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >4.) Should the divine name not be read as written
                    > >because of the spelling of the (intentional? ) unvowelized
                    > >consonants?
                    > How would you do that? How would it sound?
                    >
                  • teddy_trueblood
                    I agree with Abdijah. I would like to remind everyone of the important example of Jesus. His name was the same as the person we know as Joshua as shown in
                    Message 9 of 25 , Nov 16 1:22 PM


                      I agree with Abdijah.

                      I would like to remind everyone of the important example of "Jesus."  His name was the same as the person we know as Joshua as shown in the OT Septuagint as well as the NT itself.

                      Joshua's name was "Yehoshua" shortened to "Yehosha," and finally to "Yeshua."

                      When this same name was rendered into the Septuagint and the NT it became "Yay-soos."  It is this Greek form of the original "Yehoshua" which has become "Jesus" (English), or "Hay-soos" (Spanish).

                      Consider that this perfectly acceptable change to most professed Christians is the name of their God!!  Jesus is God to trinitarians (and Oneness folks).  And yet they cannot accept a name for the Father which is probably much closer to the original than "Jesus" and which was used much more often in Scripture!

                      For more see this study:

                      http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/11/pronounce-gods-name.html 

                      "Joshua - ... i. THE  NAME. - 1. The English form Joshua is an abbreviation of the Heb. 3&;&%* [yehoshua] (only in Dt 3:21, Jg 2:7) or  3;&%*  [yehosha] (the usual form, e.g. Ex 17:9, Dt 1:38 etc., 1 Ki 16:34), later abbreviated to  3&;* [yeshua] (of Joshua himself, Neh 8:17) .... The LXX [Septuagint] give[s] it as IhsouV [yaysoos - "Jesus"], and so it occurs in the NT both as Joshua's own name (Ac 7:45) and that of our Lord (Mt 1:21, 25)." - p. 779, Vol. 2, Hastings' A Dictionary of the Bible, Hendrickson Publishers, 1988 printing.

                      ...........................................

                      .............................................

                      --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, "Abdijah" <Abdijah@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > The pronunciation of God's Name raises many discussions, with many points.
                      >
                      > In the ministry I have talked with those who say "Jehovah" cannot be correct for the usual reasons (Hebrew doesn't have a "J", etc ...)
                      > I would point out we speak English. They would point out that if John" goes to Mexico he is still "John" not "Juan."
                      >
                      > I would point out that the Engish Bible has books called John, but in Spanish those same books are called Juan. They would point out those are just translations.
                      >
                      > And so on yadayadayadayada....
                      >
                      > I always wished I had a good Biblical example. I thought of some such as Saul became Paul; Peter, Simon, Cephas all the same purpose, but they did not quite prove the point the way I wished I could prove it.
                      >
                      > Finally, I found the perfect biblical example. Someone in the Bible with their name used in two different languages interchangeably and it made no difference. Remember, everything in there is there for teaching, for setting things straight, etc. (2 Timothy 3:16, 17)
                      >
                      > Ready? OK, here it is: Acts 9:36-40:
                      >
                      > "But in Joppa there was a certain disciple named Tabitha, which, when translated, means Dorcas. She abounded in good deeds and gifts of mercy that she was rendering. But in those days she happened to fall sick and die. So they bathed her and laid her in an upper chamber. Now as Lydda was near Joppa, when the disciples heard that Peter was in this city they dispatched two men to him to entreat [him]: "Please do not hesitate to come on as far as us." At that Peter rose and went with them. And when he arrived, they led him up into the upper chamber; and all the widows presented themselves to him weeping and exhibiting many inner garments and outer garments that Dorcas used to make while she was with them. But Peter put everybody outside and, bending his knees, he prayed, and, turning to the body, he said: "Tabitha, rise!" She opened her eyes and, as she caught sight of Peter, she sat up."
                      >
                      > Did you notice that? Right there in that one passage it calls her both Dorcas and Tabitha. You can see this very clearly if you read verses 39 and 40 together.
                      >
                      > So, we can call our Gof Yahweh or Jehovah, or the same Name in another language, as long as it is to him we are referring. Otherwise, He wouldn't have inspired this example for us to consider.
                      >
                      > --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, Paul Leonard anotherpaul2001@ wrote:
                      > >
                      > > In what language?
                      > >
                      > > Hebrew or English or?
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ________________________________
                      > > From: Marcus Ampe & Belgian Christadelphians marcus_ampe@
                      > > To: JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Sent: Wed, November 11, 2009 12:34:45 PM
                      > > Subject: Re: [JWquestions-and_answers] Re: Questions from Readers
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > moto_bl wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >4.) Should the divine name not be read as written
                      > > >because of the spelling of the (intentional? ) unvowelized
                      > > >consonants?
                      > > How would you do that? How would it sound?
                      > >
                      >

                    • Marcus Ampe & Belgian Christadelphians
                      ... That s what I want to point out in every language it is going to sound differently. Today, Just listen to the different pronunciations of Jehovah and Jesus
                      Message 10 of 25 , Nov 19 3:16 AM
                        Paul Leonard wrote:
                         
                        In what language?

                        Hebrew or English or?
                        That's what I want to point out in every language it is going to sound differently.
                        Today, Just listen to the different pronunciations of Jehovah and Jesus / Yeshua.


                        From: Marcus Ampe & Belgian Christadelphians <marcus_ampe@ yahoo.co. uk>
                        To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                        Sent: Wed, November 11, 2009 12:34:45 PM
                        Subject: Re: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Questions from Readers

                         

                        moto_bl wrote:

                        4.) Should the divine name not be read as written because of the spelling of the (intentional? ) unvowelized consonants?
                        How would you do that? How would it sound?

                      • Marcus Ampe & Belgian Christadelphians
                        Thank you Abdijah for the beautiful example. This confirms the reason why we as Cd accept both usages of the name of God: Jehovah & Yahweh. Being Flemish, in
                        Message 11 of 25 , Nov 23 10:51 PM
                          Thank you Abdijah for the beautiful example. This confirms the reason why we as Cd accept both usages of the name of God: Jehovah & Yahweh.

                          Being Flemish, in Dutch both Yahweh and Jehova(h) are used, though I do give preference to Jehovah for I personally also do believe that that is the most closest form to the name that was used by the Israelites. (Also by checking by Antwerp Jews, how they thought it should be pronounced)

                          Abdijah wrote:
                           

                          The pronunciation of God's Name raises many discussions, with many points.

                          In the ministry I have talked with those who say "Jehovah" cannot be correct for the usual reasons (Hebrew doesn't have a "J", etc ...)
                          I would point out we speak English. They would point out that if John" goes to Mexico he is still "John" not "Juan."

                          I would point out that the Engish Bible has books called John, but in Spanish those same books are called Juan. They would point out those are just translations.

                          And so on yadayadayadayada. ...

                          I always wished I had a good Biblical example. I thought of some such as Saul became Paul; Peter, Simon, Cephas all the same purpose, but they did not quite prove the point the way I wished I could prove it.

                          Finally, I found the perfect biblical example. Someone in the Bible with their name used in two different languages interchangeably and it made no difference. Remember, everything in there is there for teaching, for setting things straight, etc. (2 Timothy 3:16, 17)

                          Ready? OK, here it is: Acts 9:36-40:

                          "But in Joppa there was a certain disciple named Tabitha, which, when translated, means Dorcas. She abounded in good deeds and gifts of mercy that she was rendering. But in those days she happened to fall sick and die. So they bathed her and laid her in an upper chamber. Now as Lydda was near Joppa, when the disciples heard that Peter was in this city they dispatched two men to him to entreat [him]: "Please do not hesitate to come on as far as us." At that Peter rose and went with them. And when he arrived, they led him up into the upper chamber; and all the widows presented themselves to him weeping and exhibiting many inner garments and outer garments that Dorcas used to make while she was with them. But Peter put everybody outside and, bending his knees, he prayed, and, turning to the body, he said: "Tabitha, rise!" She opened her eyes and, as she caught sight of Peter, she sat up."

                          Did you notice that? Right there in that one passage it calls her both Dorcas and Tabitha. You can see this very clearly if you read verses 39 and 40 together.

                          So, we can call our Gof Yahweh or Jehovah, or the same Name in another language, as long as it is to him we are referring. Otherwise, He wouldn't have inspired this example for us to consider.

                          --- In JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com, Paul Leonard <anotherpaul2001@ ...> wrote:
                          >
                          > In what language?
                          >
                          > Hebrew or English or?
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ____________ _________ _________ __
                          > From: Marcus Ampe & Belgian Christadelphians <marcus_ampe@ ...>
                          > To: JWquestions- and_answers@ yahoogroups. com
                          > Sent: Wed, November 11, 2009 12:34:45 PM
                          > Subject: Re: [JWquestions- and_answers] Re: Questions from Readers
                          >
                          >
                          > moto_bl wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >4.) Should the divine name not be read as written
                          > >because of the spelling of the (intentional? ) unvowelized
                          > >consonants?
                          > How would you do that? How would it sound?


                        • Marcus Ampe & Belgian Christadelphians
                          ... The strange thing is also that lots of folk seem to have an aversion for Gods name. - As soon as people hear the name Jehovah, they do not want to know
                          Message 12 of 25 , Nov 23 11:24 PM
                            teddy_trueblood wrote:
                             


                            ...  "Jesus."  His name was the same as the person we know as Joshua as shown in the OT Septuagint as well as the NT itself.

                            Joshua's = "Yehoshua" shortened to "Yehosha," and finally to "Yeshua."

                            ... it became "Yay-soos."  It is this Greek form of the original "Yehoshua" which has become "Jesus" (English), or "Hay-soos" (Spanish).

                            Consider that this perfectly acceptable change to most professed Christians is the name of their God!!  Jesus is God to trinitarians (and Oneness folks).  And yet they cannot accept a name for the Father which is probably much closer to the original than "Jesus" and which was used much more often in Scripture!


                            The strange thing is also that lots of folk seem to have an aversion for Gods name. - As soon as people hear the name Jehovah, they do not want to know anything more.  Here in our region most people have a dislike for "Jehovah" and are against that name. They use God's title and assume that it is a name. When you bring forth that for a loved one you use a name they either say "God" is the name or "Jesus" is the name. We have to go against that and have to try to convince those people that Gods name should really be known.

                            Therefore some of our Cd brothers prefer using Yahweh, because this does not bring so much protest as Jehovah. On the matter of not shocking people the Cd community preferred not to much to mention the Name Jehovah itself on the internet pages, so that they first could introduce further important points of beliefs.
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