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Trinity

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    Like God, has the Son (Jesus Christ), always existed? He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; (Col. 1:15) These are the things
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 9 11:48 AM

      Like God, has the Son (Jesus Christ), always existed?

      "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;" (Col. 1:15)

      "These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God." (Rev. 3:14)

      "Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago." (Prov. 8:22)

      (Many Bible commentators agree that the Son is referred to as wisdom personified here. Also, notice how these trinitarian Bibles reluctantly render qanah at Prov. 8:22):

      (1) "[Jehovah] created me at the beginning of his work" - RSV;
      (2) "[Jehovah] created me" - NRSV;
      (3) "[Jehovah] made me" - MLB;
      (4) "Yahweh created me" - JB; "Yahweh created me" - NJB;
      (5) "[Jehovah] created me" - NEB;
      (6) "[Jehovah] created me" - REB;
      (7) "I was the first thing made" - ETRV;
      (8) "[Jehovah] created me as the first of his creations" - Lamsa;
      (9) "[Jehovah] created me first of all" - GNB;
      (10) "[Jehovah] formed me as the first of his works" - AT;
      (11) "[Jehovah] formed me first of his creation" - Mo;
      (12) "Jehovah framed me first" - Byington;
      (13) "[Jehovah] created me" - The Reader's Digest Bible;
      (14) "[Jehovah] brought me forth as the first of his works" - The NIV Study Bible. It also explains in a footnote for Prov. 8:22: "brought...forth. The Hebrew for this verb is also used in Ge 4:1; 14:19, 22 (`creator')." - Zondervan, 1985;
      (15) "[Jehovah] made me the beginning of his ways for his works" - The Apostles Bible;
      (16) "[Jehovah] made me as the start of his way, the first of his works in the past. - BBE;
      (17) "Yahweh created me first, at the beginning of his works" - Christian Community Bible;
      (18) "[Jehovah] made me as the beginning of his way, the first of his ancient works" - The Complete Jewish Bible;
      (19) "[Jehovah] made me at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago" - The Holman Christian Standard Bible;
      (20) "[Jehovah] created me as the first of his creations, before all of his works. - Peshitta - Lamsa Translation;
      (21) "[Jehovah] sovereignly made me—the first, the basic— before he did anything else." - The Message;
      (22) "[Jehovah] created me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago." - NET;
      (23) "I, wisdom, was with [Jehovah] when he began his work, long before he made anything else. 23 I was created in the very beginning, even before the world began." - New Century Version;
      (24) "[Jehovah] created me as the first of his works, before his acts of long ago." - New International Reader's Version;
      (25) "[Jehovah] made me at the beginning of His work, before His first works long ago." - New Life Bible;
      (26) "[Jehovah] formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else. - New Living Translation;
      (27) "Jehovah created me in the beginning of his way, before his works of antiquity." - New Simplified Bible;
      (28) "[Jehovah] created me as the head of His ways, to perform all of His works" - 2001 Translation.

    • public_message
      Trinity (click on one to view) Dozens of Debunked Trinity Proof Texts Trinity Research
      Message 2 of 12 , Jan 10 3:40 PM
      • Janice Huskey
        Since it has been up for discussion I would like to give a few answers as to why I do not believe in trinity..Duet. 6:14.Jehovah our God is ONE
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 28, 2008
          Since it has been up for discussion I would like to give a few answers as to why I do not believe in trinity..Duet. 6:14.Jehovah our God is ONE Jehovah...1Cor.11:3.Head of man Christ,head of woman is man,Head of Christ is God.If Christ,& God are one,how could the head of Christ be God? This indicates that there is one above Christ,as ps.83:18 says Jehovah is the most high..John 14:28 Jesus said [I am going away to my father,] also [The father is greater than I am]..If Jesus ,& Jehovah are one,then why would he say [The father is greater than I am]?  Also on several occasions Jesus was heard praying to his father,again, if they are the same person,then Jesus would have been praying to himself,would he not? At Matt.3:17 a voice was heard saying [This is my son].[The one whom I,ve approved ].I f Jesus was Jehovah then would he not have said,[this is me?...I want to appologize if I offended anyone by my statement that it was so simple that a child could understand it.I realize everyone is free to believe the way they understand.& I meant no offence to anyone..Thanks  Donna H


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        • Paul Leonard
          I think you are making very good scriptural points. Janice Huskey wrote: Since it has been up for discussion I would like to give
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 28, 2008
            I think you are making very good scriptural points.

            Janice Huskey <janicehuskey2007@...> wrote:
            Since it has been up for discussion I would like to give a few answers as to why I do not believe in trinity..Duet. 6:14.Jehovah our God is ONE Jehovah...1Cor. 11:3.Head of man Christ,head of woman is man,Head of Christ is God.If Christ,& God are one,how could the head of Christ be God? This indicates that there is one above Christ,as ps.83:18 says Jehovah is the most high..John 14:28 Jesus said [I am going away to my father,] also [The father is greater than I am]..If Jesus ,& Jehovah are one,then why would he say [The father is greater than I am]?  Also on several occasions Jesus was heard praying to his father,again, if they are the same person,then Jesus would have been praying to himself,would he not? At Matt.3:17 a voice was heard saying [This is my son].[The one whom I,ve approved ].I f Jesus was Jehovah then would he not have said,[this is me?...I want to appologize if I offended anyone by my statement that it was so simple that a child could understand it.I realize everyone is free to believe the way they understand.& I meant no offence to anyone..Thanks  Donna H


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          • moto_bl
            Hello Donna, I also agree that you make good scriptural points! First Cor.11:3 is very compelling to me as well. And in fact, your very first point (Deut.
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 29, 2008
              Hello Donna,
               
              I also agree that you make good scriptural points!
               
              First Cor.11:3 is very compelling to me as well. And in fact, your very first point (Deut. 6:4: "Jehovah our God is ONE Jehovah") reminded me of a quote from The New Encyclopedia Britannica:
               
              "Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord' -- Deut. 6:4
              . . . The [trinity] doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since." -- Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126. (1976); The New Encyclopedia Britannica
               
              (Quotes from what several other Encyclopedias say about the Trinity doctrine can be found by clicking  here.)


               

              --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, Paul Leonard <anotherpaul2001@...> wrote:
              >
              > I think you are making very good scriptural points.
              >
              > Janice Huskey janicehuskey2007@... wrote:
              > Since it has been up for discussion I would like to give a few answers as to why I do not believe in trinity..Duet. 6:14.Jehovah our God is ONE Jehovah...1Cor.11:3.Head of man Christ,head of woman is man,Head of Christ is God.If Christ,& God are one,how could the head of Christ be God? This indicates that there is one above Christ,as ps.83:18 says Jehovah is the most high..John 14:28 Jesus said [I am going away to my father,] also [The father is greater than I am]..If Jesus ,& Jehovah are one,then why would he say [The father is greater than I am]? Also on several occasions Jesus was heard praying to his father,again, if they are the same person,then Jesus would have been praying to himself,would he not? At Matt.3:17 a voice was heard saying [This is my son].[The one whom I,ve approved ].I f Jesus was Jehovah then would he not have said,[this is me?...I want to appologize if I offended anyone by my statement that it was so simple that a child could understand it.I realize
              > everyone is free to believe the way they understand.& I meant no offence to anyone..Thanks Donna H

            • James Dillon
              Why don t you believe in the Trinity?  Didn t Jesus tell the disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost ? Why don t you
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 10, 2010
                Why don't you believe in the Trinity?  Didn't Jesus tell the disciples to baptize in the name of "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost"?

              • Paul Leonard
                Hi, Where do you find the Trinity in that verse? It does not speak of persons/being, equality or a godhead. Using a singular name is used of others who are
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 10, 2010

                  Hi,

                  Where do you find the Trinity in that verse? It does not speak of persons/being, equality or a godhead. Using a singular  "name" is used of others who are two or more different beings.

                  In addition we do not find anyone actually being baptized using those words in Scripture.

                  If we took it as a requirement, then we would find it used elsewhere in Scripture.. However we do find baptized in the name of Jesus frequently. If we accept the Trinitarian position on Matt 28:19 it could lead to Sabellianism or Oneness, as it would mean Jesus was all three not just the Son.

                  Finally it is possible that it is a later addition to the text.

                  Here are some comments on the issue by scholars and translators. This is a short list.

                  The Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge:
                  "Jesus, however, cannot have given His disciples this Trinitarian order of baptism after His resurrection; for the New Testament knows only one baptism in the name of Jesus (Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:43; 19:5; Gal. 3:27; Rom. 6:3; 1 Cor. 1:13-15), which still occurs even in the second and third centuries, while the Trinitarian formula occurs only in Matt. 28:19, and then only again (in the) Didache 7:1 and Justin, Apol. 1:61...Finally, the distinctly liturgical character of the formula...is strange; it was not the way of Jesus to make such formulas... the formal authenticity of Matt. 28:19 must be disputed..." page 435.


                  The Jerusalem Bible, a scholarly Catholic work, states:
                  "It may be that this formula, (Triune Matthew 28:19) so far as the fullness of its expression is concerned, is a reflection of the (Man-made) liturgical usage established later in the primitive (Catholic) community. It will be remembered that Acts speaks of baptizing "in the name of Jesus,"..."


                  The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Vol. 4, page 2637, Under "Baptism," says:
                  "Matthew 28:19 in particular only canonizes a later ecclesiastical situation, that its universalism is contrary to the facts of early Christian history, and its Trinitarian formula (is) foreign to the mouth of Jesus."


                  The Bible Commentary 1919 page 723:
                  Dr. Peake makes it clear that: "The command to baptize into the threefold name is a late doctrinal expansion. Instead of the words baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost we should probably read simply-"into My Name."


                  The Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, I, 275:
                  "It is often affirmed that the words in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost are not the ipsissima verba [exact words] of Jesus, but...a later liturgical addition."


                  Consequently, to use Matt 28:19 as a "proof" text or support for the Trinity is not possible.

                   

                  Why don't you believe in the Trinity?  Didn't Jesus tell the disciples to baptize in the name of "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost"?

                • moto_bl
                  Hi. Even Trinitarian sources have admitted that the Trinity
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 10, 2010

                    Hi.

                    Even Trinitarian sources have admitted that the Trinity doctrine is not biblical:

                    "The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective." - The New Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. XIV, p. 299, (1967).

                    "Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord' (Deut. 6:4)" - The New Encyclopedia Britannica

                     

                    Concerning Mt. 28:19:

                    W. E. Vine, the New Testament language expert who is so highly respected by trinitarians tells us that Bible phrases beginning "in the name of..." indicate that the secondary meaning of "authority" or "power" was intended by the Bible writer. - p. 772, Vine. Therefore, Matt. 28:19 actually means: "baptizing them in recognition of the power [or the authority] of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy spirit."

                    Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Vol. 1, p. 245, makes the same admission when discussing Matt. 28:19:

                    "The use of name (onoma) here is a common one in the Septuagint and the papyri for power or authority."

                    Noted trinitarian scholars McClintock and Strong say in their Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature concerning Matthew 28:18-20:

                    "This text, however, taken by itself, would not prove decisively either the personality of the three subjects mentioned, or their equality or divinity." (1981 reprint, Vol. X, p. 552)

                    And trinitarian scholar Kittel in his Theological Dictionary of the New Testament:

                    "The N[ew] T[estament] does not actually speak of triunity. We seek this in vain in the triadic formulae [including Matthew 28:19] of the NT."

                    The fact that "name" is singular at Matt. 28:19 is only further proof that "authority" or "power" was meant and not a personal name. If more than one person is involved, then the plural "names" would be used (compare Rev. 21:12). Even trinitarians admit that their God is composed of 3 separate persons. And each one of those "persons" has his own personal name (except, upon further study, one will see that the holy spirit really does not). Therefore, if personal names were intended here for these three different "persons," the plural "names" would have been used in this scripture.

                    Since it clearly means "in recognition of the power, or authority of," it is perfectly correct to use "name" in the singular. In fact, it must be used that way. We even recognize this in our own language today. We say, for example, "I did it in the name [singular] of love, humanity, and justice."

                    For much more, see:

                    Why Don't Jehovah's Witnesses Believe in the Trinity?

                    Are Jehovah's Witnesses not Christians because they do not believe in the trinity?

                    Does Mt. 28:19 prove that the Holy Spirit is God?

                    Trinity Indexes

                    Examining Trinity 'Proof Texts'

                    --- In JWquestions-and_answers@yahoogroups.com, James Dillon <dillonzo88@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Why don't you believe in the Trinity?  Didn't Jesus tell the disciples to baptize in the name of "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost"?
                    >

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