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Re: Re: [JUGGLING_GA] FW: This weekend - Braves series

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  • mergor@bellsouth.net
    They called me a few days ago. I can t do it because I m in Vegas. Jonathan is right don t do it on the cheap. Meredith ... still get professional jugglers.
    Message 1 of 22 , Jun 16, 2006
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      They called me a few days ago. I can't do it because I'm in Vegas. Jonathan is right don't do it on the
      cheap.

      Meredith


      >
      > From: "jugglah@..." <Jugglah@...>
      > Date: 2006/06/15 Thu PM 05:03:01 EDT
      > To: JUGGLING_GA@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [JUGGLING_GA] FW: This weekend - Braves series
      >
      > Mitali is a her not a him (she called me)... and from what I've heard... she is trying to lowball it and
      still get professional jugglers. Don't do it on the cheap!!! Anything less than $75 per hour is
      somewhat insulting and that's almost half of the going rates. This is the Braves... they can afford
      actual jugglers.
      >
      > - Jonathan
      >
      >
      > ___
      > JIP
      > (Juggle In Peace)
      >
      > -- "Dave Altman" <farm369@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Ya'll,
      >
      > I got the same message, Rodger, I emailed him back, but I haven't heard from him back. I'll call if I
      don't hear from him soon.
      >
      > Dave
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Rodger French
      > To: Atlanta Jugglers Association
      > Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 1:35 PM
      > Subject: [JUGGLING_GA] FW: This weekend - Braves series
      >
      > ------ Forwarded Message
      > From: "Chakraborty, Mitali" <Mitali.Chakraborty@...>
      > Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 11:28:23 -0400
      > To: <deluxevaudeville@...>
      > Subject: This weekend - Braves series
      >
      > Hi Rodger,
      > I found your link from the Atlanta Jugglers Association for Deluxe
      > Vaudeville Orchestra.
      >
      > I know this is short notice, but I am looking for more street type
      > performers for our pre-game celebration before our game this weekend against
      > the Boston Red Sox Series.
      >
      > We are expecting 3 sold out games and want to make sure we activate the
      > ballpark the entire night.
      >
      > Fri:
      > 4:30 ­ approx. 7:30
      >
      > Sat:
      >
      > 10:20 ­ 1:30
      >
      > Sun:
      >
      > 5:00 ­ approx. 8:00
      >
      > Let me know if you think any of these days are doable?
      > I look forward to hearing from you.
      >
      > Thanks so much,
      > Mitali Chakraborty
      >
      > Mitali Chakraborty
      >
      > Entertainment Manager
      >
      > Atlanta Braves
      >
      > 404-614-2441 (work)
      >
      > 678-592-8219 (cell)
      >
      > 404-614-1329 (fax)
      >
      > Mitali.Chakraborty@...
      >
      > <http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/atl/ticketing/ticket_marketplace.
      > jsp> BRAVES TICKET MARKETPLACE
      > Buy choice seats from Season Ticket Holders ยป
      > <http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/atl/ticketing/ticket_marketplace.j
      > sp>
      >
      > ------ End of Forwarded Message
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
      >
      > TO JOIN EMAIL ONLY, SEND BLANK EMAIL TO:
      > Juggling_GA-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > TO JOIN VIA WEB (YOU GET MORE OPTIONS):
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JUGGLING_GA/join
      >
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      > Http://www.YahooGroups.com/group/juggling_ga
      > TO UN_SUBSCRIBE, SEND BLANK EMAIL TO:
      > Juggling_GA-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > VISIT THE ATLANTA JUGGLERS ASSOCIATION web site:
      > Http://www.atlantajugglers.org
      > VISIT THE ATLANTA JUGGLERS ASSOCIATION TwIki page:
      > http://tomshiro.org/cgi-bin/twiki/view/AJA/WebHome
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • seasideshowman
      ... forum, ... are doing ... room for ... heard... she ... Don t do it on ... insulting and ... can ... Hey all, As an outsider looking in I wanted to defend
      Message 2 of 22 , Jun 17, 2006
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        --- In JUGGLING_GA@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Altman" <farm369@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Hi Jonathan,
        >
        > Yes, I've talked to "her" and I don't like talking prices over the
        forum,
        > but I have made arrangements that are workable. Andy Ford and I
        are doing
        > it, for sure, and I've asked Ron Aglin if he can work. There is
        room for
        > about 8 others, so any one else interested? Thanks for the info.
        >
        > Dave
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "jugglah@..." <Jugglah@...>
        > To: <JUGGLING_GA@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 5:03 PM
        > Subject: Re: [JUGGLING_GA] FW: This weekend - Braves series
        >
        >
        > Mitali is a her not a him (she called me)... and from what I've
        heard... she
        > is trying to lowball it and still get professional jugglers.
        Don't do it on
        > the cheap!!! Anything less than $75 per hour is somewhat
        insulting and
        > that's almost half of the going rates. This is the Braves... they
        can
        > afford actual jugglers.
        >
        > - Jonathan

        Hey all,

        As an 'outsider' looking in I wanted to defend Jonathan's post and
        Dave's response. I don't see the problem with discussing rates for
        services. We, as professional entertainers, need to know what is
        low and what is high in regards to a rate so we don't spoil the
        scene for all the other acts out there. If a major client like The
        Braves say they don't have the funds to pay the full rate consider a
        trade exchange of a like amount such as VIP seating for 4 for a game
        of your choice, etc. Don't be afraid you're insulting them by
        asking for the price you want. Remember, it's nothing personal,
        just professional especially when they're coming to YOU with SHORT
        notice.

        So, what are you getting, Dave? :O)

        Aloha,
        Cap'n Mike
        Myrtle Beach, SC

        PS. Dave, you don't have to tell me ...

        ============================================
      • jugglah@juno.com
        And more importantly, you don t want to water down the standard rates since the community of professional jugglers have worked quite hard to establish a
        Message 3 of 22 , Jun 17, 2006
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          And more importantly, you don't want to water down the standard rates since the community of professional jugglers have worked quite hard to establish a reasonable standard rate. If clients feel they can just keep shopping around for a lower rate, the performance quality will drop as the skilled performers move on to other markets where they are paid fair rates.
          If enough jugglers insist on appropriate rates, the client will have to produce that amount... and learn what the appropriate amount is for professional entertainment. I've seen it done before where the client goes on the cheap... is dissapointed and then "miraculously" finds the money to hire professionals and is satisfied. And mind you, I'm not saying there isn't a range here... if you wanted quality (read that as hiring me) you would need to pay more than hiring Dave. <duck> Just kidding, what I really mean is that we need to work hard to help everybody get higher rates.
          I'm sure she can find "somebody" to work for ten bucks an hour as a performer... but that's not my point. We're trying to raise the standards for the juggling community and not dilute them and still maintain a reasonable experience for the lay people.

          - Jonathan
          www.Jugglah.com

          ___
          JIP
          (Juggle In Peace)




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Rodger French
          Spoken like a pro. RgF
          Message 4 of 22 , Jun 17, 2006
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            Spoken like a pro.

            RgF

            On 06/17/06 13:00, "jugglah@..." <Jugglah@...> wrote:

            >
            > And more importantly, you don't want to water down the standard rates since
            > the community of professional jugglers have worked quite hard to establish a
            > reasonable standard rate. If clients feel they can just keep shopping around
            > for a lower rate, the performance quality will drop as the skilled performers
            > move on to other markets where they are paid fair rates.
            > If enough jugglers insist on appropriate rates, the client will have to
            > produce that amount... and learn what the appropriate amount is for
            > professional entertainment. I've seen it done before where the client goes on
            > the cheap... is dissapointed and then "miraculously" finds the money to hire
            > professionals and is satisfied. And mind you, I'm not saying there isn't a
            > range here... if you wanted quality (read that as hiring me) you would need to
            > pay more than hiring Dave. <duck> Just kidding, what I really mean is that
            > we need to work hard to help everybody get higher rates.
            > I'm sure she can find "somebody" to work for ten bucks an hour as a
            > performer... but that's not my point. We're trying to raise the standards for
            > the juggling community and not dilute them and still maintain a reasonable
            > experience for the lay people.
            >
            > - Jonathan
            > www.Jugglah.com
            >
            > ___
            > JIP
            > (Juggle In Peace)
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
            >
            > TO JOIN EMAIL ONLY, SEND BLANK EMAIL TO:
            > Juggling_GA-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > TO JOIN VIA WEB (YOU GET MORE OPTIONS):
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JUGGLING_GA/join
            >
            > TO EDIT EMAIL SUBSCRIPTION (or UN-SUBSCRIBE):
            > Http://www.YahooGroups.com/group/juggling_ga
            > TO UN_SUBSCRIBE, SEND BLANK EMAIL TO:
            > Juggling_GA-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > VISIT THE ATLANTA JUGGLERS ASSOCIATION web site:
            > Http://www.atlantajugglers.org
            > VISIT THE ATLANTA JUGGLERS ASSOCIATION TwIki page:
            > http://tomshiro.org/cgi-bin/twiki/view/AJA/WebHome
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Dave Altman
            Hi Cap n Mike, You might have misunderstood me. I did appreciate Jonathan advice. Personally, I would rather discuss actual prices and fees by private email.
            Message 5 of 22 , Jun 17, 2006
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              Hi Cap'n Mike,

              You might have misunderstood me. I did appreciate Jonathan advice. Personally, I would rather discuss actual prices and fees by private email. The forum is a little too public, but I agree that we should communicate with each other about pricing and other concerns.

              Something did happen about this gig. We worked Fri and today, than we were told that on Sunday wasn't necessary for us to come because the lines weren't as long as they had hoped. I'm not happy with Mitali. First she calls on Thursday for the weekend. I have to make several calls to get a confirmation from her, then call four other people to get them to work on such short notice. Then she backs out of the contract by shorting the agreed upon dates.

              I am going to double check with her tomorrow to see if our services were up to par, if not, what was wrong; if they were satisfactory, she should live up to the contract. She originally wanted 10 people, I supplied 5; she asked if I knew any mimes on Friday afternoon, indicating she was happy with everyone and she wanted even more people, then when we got there this morning, we were told not to bother coming on Sunday.

              Dave


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: seasideshowman
              To: JUGGLING_GA@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2006 9:42 AM
              Subject: [JUGGLING_GA] Re: FW: This weekend - Braves series


              --- In JUGGLING_GA@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Altman" <farm369@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Hi Jonathan,
              >
              > Yes, I've talked to "her" and I don't like talking prices over the
              forum,
              > but I have made arrangements that are workable. Andy Ford and I
              are doing
              > it, for sure, and I've asked Ron Aglin if he can work. There is
              room for
              > about 8 others, so any one else interested? Thanks for the info.
              >
              > Dave
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "jugglah@..." <Jugglah@...>
              > To: <JUGGLING_GA@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 5:03 PM
              > Subject: Re: [JUGGLING_GA] FW: This weekend - Braves series
              >
              >
              > Mitali is a her not a him (she called me)... and from what I've
              heard... she
              > is trying to lowball it and still get professional jugglers.
              Don't do it on
              > the cheap!!! Anything less than $75 per hour is somewhat
              insulting and
              > that's almost half of the going rates. This is the Braves... they
              can
              > afford actual jugglers.
              >
              > - Jonathan

              Hey all,

              As an 'outsider' looking in I wanted to defend Jonathan's post and
              Dave's response. I don't see the problem with discussing rates for
              services. We, as professional entertainers, need to know what is
              low and what is high in regards to a rate so we don't spoil the
              scene for all the other acts out there. If a major client like The
              Braves say they don't have the funds to pay the full rate consider a
              trade exchange of a like amount such as VIP seating for 4 for a game
              of your choice, etc. Don't be afraid you're insulting them by
              asking for the price you want. Remember, it's nothing personal,
              just professional especially when they're coming to YOU with SHORT
              notice.

              So, what are you getting, Dave? :O)

              Aloha,
              Cap'n Mike
              Myrtle Beach, SC

              PS. Dave, you don't have to tell me ...

              ============================================





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Dave Altman
              Hi Jonathon, I agreed to a price about what you mentioned, like I said, I will talk about exact prices by private email, not on this forum. I agree with what
              Message 6 of 22 , Jun 17, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Jonathon,

                I agreed to a price about what you mentioned, like I said, I will talk about exact prices by private email, not on this forum. I agree with what you said below. I have known this principle for over twenty five years, in other words, before you were out of diapers.

                I stayed within the Atlanta professional range. I don't think Ron, Drew, Bruce, Mike, Todd, and myself would have agreed on a price below the standard rate.

                Dave

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: jugglah@...
                To: JUGGLING_GA@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2006 1:00 PM
                Subject: Re: [JUGGLING_GA] Re: FW: This weekend - Braves series



                And more importantly, you don't want to water down the standard rates since the community of professional jugglers have worked quite hard to establish a reasonable standard rate. If clients feel they can just keep shopping around for a lower rate, the performance quality will drop as the skilled performers move on to other markets where they are paid fair rates.
                If enough jugglers insist on appropriate rates, the client will have to produce that amount... and learn what the appropriate amount is for professional entertainment. I've seen it done before where the client goes on the cheap... is dissapointed and then "miraculously" finds the money to hire professionals and is satisfied. And mind you, I'm not saying there isn't a range here... if you wanted quality (read that as hiring me) you would need to pay more than hiring Dave. <duck> Just kidding, what I really mean is that we need to work hard to help everybody get higher rates.
                I'm sure she can find "somebody" to work for ten bucks an hour as a performer... but that's not my point. We're trying to raise the standards for the juggling community and not dilute them and still maintain a reasonable experience for the lay people.

                - Jonathan
                www.Jugglah.com

                ___
                JIP
                (Juggle In Peace)

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Dave Altman
                CORRECTION: The first line should read: I agreed to a price ABOVE what you mentioned... Dave ... From: Dave Altman To: JUGGLING_GA@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                Message 7 of 22 , Jun 17, 2006
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                  CORRECTION: The first line should read: I agreed to a price ABOVE what you mentioned...

                  Dave
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Dave Altman
                  To: JUGGLING_GA@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2006 1:20 AM
                  Subject: Re: [JUGGLING_GA] Re: FW: This weekend - Braves series


                  Hi Jonathon,

                  I agreed to a price about what you mentioned, like I said, I will talk about exact prices by private email, not on this forum. I agree with what you said below. I have known this principle for over twenty five years, in other words, before you were out of diapers.

                  I stayed within the Atlanta professional range. I don't think Ron, Drew, Bruce, Mike, Todd, and myself would have agreed on a price below the standard rate.

                  Dave

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: jugglah@...
                  To: JUGGLING_GA@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2006 1:00 PM
                  Subject: Re: [JUGGLING_GA] Re: FW: This weekend - Braves series

                  And more importantly, you don't want to water down the standard rates since the community of professional jugglers have worked quite hard to establish a reasonable standard rate. If clients feel they can just keep shopping around for a lower rate, the performance quality will drop as the skilled performers move on to other markets where they are paid fair rates.
                  If enough jugglers insist on appropriate rates, the client will have to produce that amount... and learn what the appropriate amount is for professional entertainment. I've seen it done before where the client goes on the cheap... is dissapointed and then "miraculously" finds the money to hire professionals and is satisfied. And mind you, I'm not saying there isn't a range here... if you wanted quality (read that as hiring me) you would need to pay more than hiring Dave. <duck> Just kidding, what I really mean is that we need to work hard to help everybody get higher rates.
                  I'm sure she can find "somebody" to work for ten bucks an hour as a performer... but that's not my point. We're trying to raise the standards for the juggling community and not dilute them and still maintain a reasonable experience for the lay people.

                  - Jonathan
                  www.Jugglah.com

                  ___
                  JIP
                  (Juggle In Peace)

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • sglpics
                  ... rather discuss actual prices and fees by private email. The forum is a little too public, but I agree that we should communicate with each other about
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jun 18, 2006
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                    --- In JUGGLING_GA@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Altman" <farm369@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Cap'n Mike,
                    >
                    > You might have misunderstood me. I did appreciate Jonathan advice. Personally, I would
                    rather discuss actual prices and fees by private email. The forum is a little too public, but I
                    agree that we should communicate with each other about pricing and other concerns.
                    >
                    > Something did happen about this gig. We worked Fri and today, than we were told that
                    on Sunday wasn't necessary for us to come because the lines weren't as long as they had
                    hoped. I'm not happy with Mitali. First she calls on Thursday for the weekend. I have to
                    make several calls to get a confirmation from her, then call four other people to get them
                    to work on such short notice. Then she backs out of the contract by shorting the agreed
                    upon dates.
                    >
                    > I am going to double check with her tomorrow to see if our services were up to par, if
                    not, what was wrong; if they were satisfactory, she should live up to the contract. She
                    originally wanted 10 people, I supplied 5; she asked if I knew any mimes on Friday
                    afternoon, indicating she was happy with everyone and she wanted even more people,
                    then when we got there this morning, we were told not to bother coming on Sunday.
                    >
                    > Dave
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: seasideshowman
                    > To: JUGGLING_GA@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2006 9:42 AM
                    > Subject: [JUGGLING_GA] Re: FW: This weekend - Braves series
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >

                    Alfredo Fettucini here,
                    Happy post "World Juggling Day" to all you Georgia Jugglers. I just wanted to add a few
                    comments to the mix here. I do not personally feel that it is that much of a bad thing to
                    discuss rates as a group. Firstly, I did not realize that this was a true "public forum" and
                    that mostly jugglers and related people were members. May be I am wrong on that note.
                    However, even if it is a true "public forum" and open to anyone, then a discussion of rates
                    could sort of give perspective buyers/clients an idea of what to expect to pay for such
                    services. Therefore setting a certain level of fees that all can benfeit from. The bottom line
                    is you decide how much you will work for, and if a client can't pay your fees then they
                    don't get your services. There is always someone who will work cheaper, but, as I tell
                    clients who "cheap out" on me, you get what you pay for. Sell a quality product, build a
                    name/reputation for your self/act and people will pay you quality prices for it. I have
                    always been a big fan of setting collective price setting in a certain market. Some
                    performers are very secretive and protective of discusing rates with other performers.
                    Myself, I have always been willing to share the info. of what I make with other performers.
                    It helps everyone. For example, all of the caracaturists in our town collectively got
                    together and decided what they will get per hour. They all stick to that, and now they all
                    get better rates as a result, because the client can't "shop around" for a better price. Pretty
                    smart move, I think.
                    On the note of the client backing out on the 3rd day... well, that could easily
                    have been prevented by a simple written, signed, contract/agreement. I know that this was
                    last minute...but you should have taken a contract to the first day of the gig, and had her
                    sign it before you started any work. That's what I would have done. Dave invited me to
                    come down for the gig. I am glad that I was already booked, as I would have been very
                    dissapointed to have come down there for 3 days of work and only worked 2. In the
                    future, always have them sign on the dotted line, even if it is last minute...no make that,
                    "especaily" if it is last minute. Those are the ones you have to watch out for the most.
                    Hope that the gig was fun, the check cleared, and no one got hurt (that is my criteria for a
                    good gig)...
                    AL

                    PS: On that OJ thing, if you really wanted bragging rights, you shoud have passed kinves/
                    machetes around him. Now that would have been funny...
                  • Dave Altman
                    Hi Ya ll, Yeah, you guys are right, please post all your rates here, also, you might as well post your 2005 income taxes, I d like to know what everyone s
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jun 18, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Ya'll,

                      Yeah, you guys are right, please post all your rates here, also, you might as well post your 2005 income taxes, I'd like to know what everyone's makes and what deductions you are getting away with. Good hide-sight call, about the contract, Steve. It is good advice and that will be my SOP from now on. I am in the process to still work today. It was a real crappy thing for them to do. Ya'll are blaming the victim, too. This hasn't ever happened to me before and if she doesn't live up to her side of the contact, either a contract thru email/phone calls or a signed contract; I strongly suggest that anyone that deals with her in the future, be extremely weary.

                      I reminds me of a story about a man riding a horse on a long trip and his horse got stolen. One bystander said, you should have hobbled your horse, another bystander said you shouldn't be traveling at this time of the year, and yet another bystander said, its not right to own a horse, you should be walking anyway.

                      Jonathan, why are you still working walk-around gigs in Atlanta, anyway? I thought you moved out of state and if you are so fricking good, why aren't you doing just stage work? Leave walk-around gigs to us low quality jugglers and you go work in Vegas or something.

                      Dave


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: sglpics
                      To: JUGGLING_GA@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2006 9:17 AM
                      Subject: [JUGGLING_GA] Re: FW: This weekend - Braves series


                      --- In JUGGLING_GA@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Altman" <farm369@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Cap'n Mike,
                      >
                      > You might have misunderstood me. I did appreciate Jonathan advice. Personally, I would
                      rather discuss actual prices and fees by private email. The forum is a little too public, but I
                      agree that we should communicate with each other about pricing and other concerns.
                      >
                      > Something did happen about this gig. We worked Fri and today, than we were told that
                      on Sunday wasn't necessary for us to come because the lines weren't as long as they had
                      hoped. I'm not happy with Mitali. First she calls on Thursday for the weekend. I have to
                      make several calls to get a confirmation from her, then call four other people to get them
                      to work on such short notice. Then she backs out of the contract by shorting the agreed
                      upon dates.
                      >
                      > I am going to double check with her tomorrow to see if our services were up to par, if
                      not, what was wrong; if they were satisfactory, she should live up to the contract. She
                      originally wanted 10 people, I supplied 5; she asked if I knew any mimes on Friday
                      afternoon, indicating she was happy with everyone and she wanted even more people,
                      then when we got there this morning, we were told not to bother coming on Sunday.
                      >
                      > Dave
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: seasideshowman
                      > To: JUGGLING_GA@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2006 9:42 AM
                      > Subject: [JUGGLING_GA] Re: FW: This weekend - Braves series
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >

                      Alfredo Fettucini here,
                      Happy post "World Juggling Day" to all you Georgia Jugglers. I just wanted to add a few
                      comments to the mix here. I do not personally feel that it is that much of a bad thing to
                      discuss rates as a group. Firstly, I did not realize that this was a true "public forum" and
                      that mostly jugglers and related people were members. May be I am wrong on that note.
                      However, even if it is a true "public forum" and open to anyone, then a discussion of rates
                      could sort of give perspective buyers/clients an idea of what to expect to pay for such
                      services. Therefore setting a certain level of fees that all can benfeit from. The bottom line
                      is you decide how much you will work for, and if a client can't pay your fees then they
                      don't get your services. There is always someone who will work cheaper, but, as I tell
                      clients who "cheap out" on me, you get what you pay for. Sell a quality product, build a
                      name/reputation for your self/act and people will pay you quality prices for it. I have
                      always been a big fan of setting collective price setting in a certain market. Some
                      performers are very secretive and protective of discusing rates with other performers.
                      Myself, I have always been willing to share the info. of what I make with other performers.
                      It helps everyone. For example, all of the caracaturists in our town collectively got
                      together and decided what they will get per hour. They all stick to that, and now they all
                      get better rates as a result, because the client can't "shop around" for a better price. Pretty
                      smart move, I think.
                      On the note of the client backing out on the 3rd day... well, that could easily
                      have been prevented by a simple written, signed, contract/agreement. I know that this was
                      last minute...but you should have taken a contract to the first day of the gig, and had her
                      sign it before you started any work. That's what I would have done. Dave invited me to
                      come down for the gig. I am glad that I was already booked, as I would have been very
                      dissapointed to have come down there for 3 days of work and only worked 2. In the
                      future, always have them sign on the dotted line, even if it is last minute...no make that,
                      "especaily" if it is last minute. Those are the ones you have to watch out for the most.
                      Hope that the gig was fun, the check cleared, and no one got hurt (that is my criteria for a
                      good gig)...
                      AL

                      PS: On that OJ thing, if you really wanted bragging rights, you shoud have passed kinves/
                      machetes around him. Now that would have been funny...





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • jugglah@juno.com
                      Dave... please don t take this personally. You are overreacting. I am trying to help out the juggling community at large. We are a small community and need
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jun 18, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dave... please don't take this personally. You are overreacting.

                        I am trying to help out the juggling community at large. We are a small community and need to look after each other's backs. Talking about fair practices is not the same as revealing personal data. It is good for aspiring performers, seasoned performers and potential clients so no one is surprised as to what is out there. No matter what the "standard" rates are, if the details of the contract are not clear either the client or the performer may end up not happy. Low rates probably equal inexperienced performers (which any seasoned performer has worked through that stage) or sketchy business. Higher rates almost always equal better treated performers.

                        If we all work together, the rates WILL go up as well as how jugglers are treated.

                        - Jonathan

                        PS. I'll work almost anywhere where there is enough money to make it worth my while. :)


                        ___
                        JIP
                        (Juggle In Peace)

                        -- "Dave Altman" <farm369@...> wrote:

                        Hi Ya'll,

                        Yeah, you guys are right, please post all your rates here, also, you might as well post your 2005 income taxes, I'd like to know what everyone's makes and what deductions you are getting away with. Good hide-sight call, about the contract, Steve. It is good advice and that will be my SOP from now on. I am in the process to still work today. It was a real crappy thing for them to do. Ya'll are blaming the victim, too. This hasn't ever happened to me before and if she doesn't live up to her side of the contact, either a contract thru email/phone calls or a signed contract; I strongly suggest that anyone that deals with her in the future, be extremely weary.

                        I reminds me of a story about a man riding a horse on a long trip and his horse got stolen. One bystander said, you should have hobbled your horse, another bystander said you shouldn't be traveling at this time of the year, and yet another bystander said, its not right to own a horse, you should be walking anyway.

                        Jonathan, why are you still working walk-around gigs in Atlanta, anyway? I thought you moved out of state and if you are so fricking good, why aren't you doing just stage work? Leave walk-around gigs to us low quality jugglers and you go work in Vegas or something.

                        Dave

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: sglpics
                        To: JUGGLING_GA@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2006 9:17 AM
                        Subject: [JUGGLING_GA] Re: FW: This weekend - Braves series

                        --- In JUGGLING_GA@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Altman" <farm369@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Cap'n Mike,
                        >
                        > You might have misunderstood me. I did appreciate Jonathan advice. Personally, I would
                        rather discuss actual prices and fees by private email. The forum is a little too public, but I
                        agree that we should communicate with each other about pricing and other concerns.
                        >
                        > Something did happen about this gig. We worked Fri and today, than we were told that
                        on Sunday wasn't necessary for us to come because the lines weren't as long as they had
                        hoped. I'm not happy with Mitali. First she calls on Thursday for the weekend. I have to
                        make several calls to get a confirmation from her, then call four other people to get them
                        to work on such short notice. Then she backs out of the contract by shorting the agreed
                        upon dates.
                        >
                        > I am going to double check with her tomorrow to see if our services were up to par, if
                        not, what was wrong; if they were satisfactory, she should live up to the contract. She
                        originally wanted 10 people, I supplied 5; she asked if I knew any mimes on Friday
                        afternoon, indicating she was happy with everyone and she wanted even more people,
                        then when we got there this morning, we were told not to bother coming on Sunday.
                        >
                        > Dave
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: seasideshowman
                        > To: JUGGLING_GA@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2006 9:42 AM
                        > Subject: [JUGGLING_GA] Re: FW: This weekend - Braves series
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >

                        Alfredo Fettucini here,
                        Happy post "World Juggling Day" to all you Georgia Jugglers. I just wanted to add a few
                        comments to the mix here. I do not personally feel that it is that much of a bad thing to
                        discuss rates as a group. Firstly, I did not realize that this was a true "public forum" and
                        that mostly jugglers and related people were members. May be I am wrong on that note.
                        However, even if it is a true "public forum" and open to anyone, then a discussion of rates
                        could sort of give perspective buyers/clients an idea of what to expect to pay for such
                        services. Therefore setting a certain level of fees that all can benfeit from. The bottom line
                        is you decide how much you will work for, and if a client can't pay your fees then they
                        don't get your services. There is always someone who will work cheaper, but, as I tell
                        clients who "cheap out" on me, you get what you pay for. Sell a quality product, build a
                        name/reputation for your self/act and people will pay you quality prices for it. I have
                        always been a big fan of setting collective price setting in a certain market. Some
                        performers are very secretive and protective of discusing rates with other performers.
                        Myself, I have always been willing to share the info. of what I make with other performers.
                        It helps everyone. For example, all of the caracaturists in our town collectively got
                        together and decided what they will get per hour. They all stick to that, and now they all
                        get better rates as a result, because the client can't "shop around" for a better price. Pretty
                        smart move, I think.
                        On the note of the client backing out on the 3rd day... well, that could easily
                        have been prevented by a simple written, signed, contract/agreement. I know that this was
                        last minute...but you should have taken a contract to the first day of the gig, and had her
                        sign it before you started any work. That's what I would have done. Dave invited me to
                        come down for the gig. I am glad that I was already booked, as I would have been very
                        dissapointed to have come down there for 3 days of work and only worked 2. In the
                        future, always have them sign on the dotted line, even if it is last minute...no make that,
                        "especaily" if it is last minute. Those are the ones you have to watch out for the most.
                        Hope that the gig was fun, the check cleared, and no one got hurt (that is my criteria for a
                        good gig)...
                        AL

                        PS: On that OJ thing, if you really wanted bragging rights, you shoud have passed kinves/
                        machetes around him. Now that would have been funny...

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Dave Altman
                        Jonathon, Take this personally, posts your rates or be quiet about it. I don t care which you do. As for a me working a gig in Atlanta cheaper than you can, of
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jun 18, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Jonathon,

                          Take this personally, posts your rates or be quiet about it. I don't care which you do. As for a me working a gig in Atlanta cheaper than you can, of course I can, because you have to figure in travel from several hundreds of miles. Its true I'm not in a good mood after being screwed by a client and I don't need to hear show business platitudes from you or anyone else. I have seen you perform and I haven't noticed such a high quality of showmanship, oh I'm just kidding, or am I?

                          Dave

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: jugglah@...
                          To: JUGGLING_GA@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2006 11:04 AM
                          Subject: Re: [JUGGLING_GA] Re: FW: This weekend - Braves series


                          Dave... please don't take this personally. You are overreacting.

                          I am trying to help out the juggling community at large. We are a small community and need to look after each other's backs. Talking about fair practices is not the same as revealing personal data. It is good for aspiring performers, seasoned performers and potential clients so no one is surprised as to what is out there. No matter what the "standard" rates are, if the details of the contract are not clear either the client or the performer may end up not happy. Low rates probably equal inexperienced performers (which any seasoned performer has worked through that stage) or sketchy business. Higher rates almost always equal better treated performers.

                          If we all work together, the rates WILL go up as well as how jugglers are treated.

                          - Jonathan

                          PS. I'll work almost anywhere where there is enough money to make it worth my while. :)

                          ___
                          JIP
                          (Juggle In Peace)

                          -- "Dave Altman" <farm369@...> wrote:

                          Hi Ya'll,

                          Yeah, you guys are right, please post all your rates here, also, you might as well post your 2005 income taxes, I'd like to know what everyone's makes and what deductions you are getting away with. Good hide-sight call, about the contract, Steve. It is good advice and that will be my SOP from now on. I am in the process to still work today. It was a real crappy thing for them to do. Ya'll are blaming the victim, too. This hasn't ever happened to me before and if she doesn't live up to her side of the contact, either a contract thru email/phone calls or a signed contract; I strongly suggest that anyone that deals with her in the future, be extremely weary.

                          I reminds me of a story about a man riding a horse on a long trip and his horse got stolen. One bystander said, you should have hobbled your horse, another bystander said you shouldn't be traveling at this time of the year, and yet another bystander said, its not right to own a horse, you should be walking anyway.

                          Jonathan, why are you still working walk-around gigs in Atlanta, anyway? I thought you moved out of state and if you are so fricking good, why aren't you doing just stage work? Leave walk-around gigs to us low quality jugglers and you go work in Vegas or something.

                          Dave

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: sglpics
                          To: JUGGLING_GA@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2006 9:17 AM
                          Subject: [JUGGLING_GA] Re: FW: This weekend - Braves series

                          --- In JUGGLING_GA@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Altman" <farm369@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi Cap'n Mike,
                          >
                          > You might have misunderstood me. I did appreciate Jonathan advice. Personally, I would
                          rather discuss actual prices and fees by private email. The forum is a little too public, but I
                          agree that we should communicate with each other about pricing and other concerns.
                          >
                          > Something did happen about this gig. We worked Fri and today, than we were told that
                          on Sunday wasn't necessary for us to come because the lines weren't as long as they had
                          hoped. I'm not happy with Mitali. First she calls on Thursday for the weekend. I have to
                          make several calls to get a confirmation from her, then call four other people to get them
                          to work on such short notice. Then she backs out of the contract by shorting the agreed
                          upon dates.
                          >
                          > I am going to double check with her tomorrow to see if our services were up to par, if
                          not, what was wrong; if they were satisfactory, she should live up to the contract. She
                          originally wanted 10 people, I supplied 5; she asked if I knew any mimes on Friday
                          afternoon, indicating she was happy with everyone and she wanted even more people,
                          then when we got there this morning, we were told not to bother coming on Sunday.
                          >
                          > Dave
                          >
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: seasideshowman
                          > To: JUGGLING_GA@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2006 9:42 AM
                          > Subject: [JUGGLING_GA] Re: FW: This weekend - Braves series
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >

                          Alfredo Fettucini here,
                          Happy post "World Juggling Day" to all you Georgia Jugglers. I just wanted to add a few
                          comments to the mix here. I do not personally feel that it is that much of a bad thing to
                          discuss rates as a group. Firstly, I did not realize that this was a true "public forum" and
                          that mostly jugglers and related people were members. May be I am wrong on that note.
                          However, even if it is a true "public forum" and open to anyone, then a discussion of rates
                          could sort of give perspective buyers/clients an idea of what to expect to pay for such
                          services. Therefore setting a certain level of fees that all can benfeit from. The bottom line
                          is you decide how much you will work for, and if a client can't pay your fees then they
                          don't get your services. There is always someone who will work cheaper, but, as I tell
                          clients who "cheap out" on me, you get what you pay for. Sell a quality product, build a
                          name/reputation for your self/act and people will pay you quality prices for it. I have
                          always been a big fan of setting collective price setting in a certain market. Some
                          performers are very secretive and protective of discusing rates with other performers.
                          Myself, I have always been willing to share the info. of what I make with other performers.
                          It helps everyone. For example, all of the caracaturists in our town collectively got
                          together and decided what they will get per hour. They all stick to that, and now they all
                          get better rates as a result, because the client can't "shop around" for a better price. Pretty
                          smart move, I think.
                          On the note of the client backing out on the 3rd day... well, that could easily
                          have been prevented by a simple written, signed, contract/agreement. I know that this was
                          last minute...but you should have taken a contract to the first day of the gig, and had her
                          sign it before you started any work. That's what I would have done. Dave invited me to
                          come down for the gig. I am glad that I was already booked, as I would have been very
                          dissapointed to have come down there for 3 days of work and only worked 2. In the
                          future, always have them sign on the dotted line, even if it is last minute...no make that,
                          "especaily" if it is last minute. Those are the ones you have to watch out for the most.
                          Hope that the gig was fun, the check cleared, and no one got hurt (that is my criteria for a
                          good gig)...
                          AL

                          PS: On that OJ thing, if you really wanted bragging rights, you shoud have passed kinves/
                          machetes around him. Now that would have been funny...

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Dave Altman
                          PS I m glad you are trying to help out the juggling community at large, what did we ever do before you came along? Dave ... From: jugglah@juno.com To:
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jun 18, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            PS I'm glad you are trying to help out the juggling community at large, what did we ever do before you came along?

                            Dave

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: jugglah@...
                            To: JUGGLING_GA@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2006 11:04 AM
                            Subject: Re: [JUGGLING_GA] Re: FW: This weekend - Braves series


                            Dave... please don't take this personally. You are overreacting.

                            I am trying to help out the juggling community at large. We are a small community and need to look after each other's backs. Talking about fair practices is not the same as revealing personal data. It is good for aspiring performers, seasoned performers and potential clients so no one is surprised as to what is out there. No matter what the "standard" rates are, if the details of the contract are not clear either the client or the performer may end up not happy. Low rates probably equal inexperienced performers (which any seasoned performer has worked through that stage) or sketchy business. Higher rates almost always equal better treated performers.

                            If we all work together, the rates WILL go up as well as how jugglers are treated.

                            - Jonathan

                            PS. I'll work almost anywhere where there is enough money to make it worth my while. :)

                            ___
                            JIP
                            (Juggle In Peace)

                            -- "Dave Altman" <farm369@...> wrote:

                            Hi Ya'll,

                            Yeah, you guys are right, please post all your rates here, also, you might as well post your 2005 income taxes, I'd like to know what everyone's makes and what deductions you are getting away with. Good hide-sight call, about the contract, Steve. It is good advice and that will be my SOP from now on. I am in the process to still work today. It was a real crappy thing for them to do. Ya'll are blaming the victim, too. This hasn't ever happened to me before and if she doesn't live up to her side of the contact, either a contract thru email/phone calls or a signed contract; I strongly suggest that anyone that deals with her in the future, be extremely weary.

                            I reminds me of a story about a man riding a horse on a long trip and his horse got stolen. One bystander said, you should have hobbled your horse, another bystander said you shouldn't be traveling at this time of the year, and yet another bystander said, its not right to own a horse, you should be walking anyway.

                            Jonathan, why are you still working walk-around gigs in Atlanta, anyway? I thought you moved out of state and if you are so fricking good, why aren't you doing just stage work? Leave walk-around gigs to us low quality jugglers and you go work in Vegas or something.

                            Dave

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: sglpics
                            To: JUGGLING_GA@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2006 9:17 AM
                            Subject: [JUGGLING_GA] Re: FW: This weekend - Braves series

                            --- In JUGGLING_GA@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Altman" <farm369@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi Cap'n Mike,
                            >
                            > You might have misunderstood me. I did appreciate Jonathan advice. Personally, I would
                            rather discuss actual prices and fees by private email. The forum is a little too public, but I
                            agree that we should communicate with each other about pricing and other concerns.
                            >
                            > Something did happen about this gig. We worked Fri and today, than we were told that
                            on Sunday wasn't necessary for us to come because the lines weren't as long as they had
                            hoped. I'm not happy with Mitali. First she calls on Thursday for the weekend. I have to
                            make several calls to get a confirmation from her, then call four other people to get them
                            to work on such short notice. Then she backs out of the contract by shorting the agreed
                            upon dates.
                            >
                            > I am going to double check with her tomorrow to see if our services were up to par, if
                            not, what was wrong; if they were satisfactory, she should live up to the contract. She
                            originally wanted 10 people, I supplied 5; she asked if I knew any mimes on Friday
                            afternoon, indicating she was happy with everyone and she wanted even more people,
                            then when we got there this morning, we were told not to bother coming on Sunday.
                            >
                            > Dave
                            >
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: seasideshowman
                            > To: JUGGLING_GA@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2006 9:42 AM
                            > Subject: [JUGGLING_GA] Re: FW: This weekend - Braves series
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >

                            Alfredo Fettucini here,
                            Happy post "World Juggling Day" to all you Georgia Jugglers. I just wanted to add a few
                            comments to the mix here. I do not personally feel that it is that much of a bad thing to
                            discuss rates as a group. Firstly, I did not realize that this was a true "public forum" and
                            that mostly jugglers and related people were members. May be I am wrong on that note.
                            However, even if it is a true "public forum" and open to anyone, then a discussion of rates
                            could sort of give perspective buyers/clients an idea of what to expect to pay for such
                            services. Therefore setting a certain level of fees that all can benfeit from. The bottom line
                            is you decide how much you will work for, and if a client can't pay your fees then they
                            don't get your services. There is always someone who will work cheaper, but, as I tell
                            clients who "cheap out" on me, you get what you pay for. Sell a quality product, build a
                            name/reputation for your self/act and people will pay you quality prices for it. I have
                            always been a big fan of setting collective price setting in a certain market. Some
                            performers are very secretive and protective of discusing rates with other performers.
                            Myself, I have always been willing to share the info. of what I make with other performers.
                            It helps everyone. For example, all of the caracaturists in our town collectively got
                            together and decided what they will get per hour. They all stick to that, and now they all
                            get better rates as a result, because the client can't "shop around" for a better price. Pretty
                            smart move, I think.
                            On the note of the client backing out on the 3rd day... well, that could easily
                            have been prevented by a simple written, signed, contract/agreement. I know that this was
                            last minute...but you should have taken a contract to the first day of the gig, and had her
                            sign it before you started any work. That's what I would have done. Dave invited me to
                            come down for the gig. I am glad that I was already booked, as I would have been very
                            dissapointed to have come down there for 3 days of work and only worked 2. In the
                            future, always have them sign on the dotted line, even if it is last minute...no make that,
                            "especaily" if it is last minute. Those are the ones you have to watch out for the most.
                            Hope that the gig was fun, the check cleared, and no one got hurt (that is my criteria for a
                            good gig)...
                            AL

                            PS: On that OJ thing, if you really wanted bragging rights, you shoud have passed kinves/
                            machetes around him. Now that would have been funny...

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Rob McDonald
                            ... which you do. As for a me working a gig in Atlanta cheaper than you can, of course I can, because you have to figure in travel from several hundreds of
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jun 19, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              > Jonathon,
                              >
                              > Take this personally, posts your rates or be quiet about it. I don't care
                              which you do. As for a me working a gig in Atlanta cheaper than you can, of
                              course I can, because you have to figure in travel from several hundreds of
                              miles. Its true I'm not in a good mood after being screwed by a client and I
                              don't need to hear show business platitudes from you or anyone else. I have
                              seen you perform and I haven't noticed such a high quality of showmanship,
                              oh I'm just kidding, or am I?
                              >
                              > Dave
                              >

                              Dave, I think you'll come back a week after getting screwed by the Braves to
                              regret this post. This is really uncalled for.

                              If you're worried about this being a public forum, don't make an ass out of
                              yourself El Presidente.

                              I am on this forum. To me, juggling is a lot like sex. I love them both,
                              and I wouldn't do either one for money. When you get paid for your hobby,
                              and your livelihood relies on it, there is a danger of it becoming work
                              instead of fun.

                              I wouldn't know what a fair rate is. I'm glad Jonathan gave a vague clue
                              about what a performer should expect. That way, if I am ever asked to make
                              a recommendation, I am informed. It is true that _anyone_ can sign up to
                              this list and listen in anonymously. Jonathan didn't post anything specific
                              or personal. I have no doubt he would only share details with discretion.

                              Rob, a juggler.
                            • Drewbob
                              DrewBob here. I feel that I should be in on this conversation. After all, I took the job, too. And so did several other people who Jonathon knows ( maybe Cap n
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jun 19, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                DrewBob here.
                                I feel that I should be in on this conversation. After all, I took
                                the job, too.
                                And so did several other people who Jonathon knows ( maybe Cap'n
                                Mike,too). I hope it's not being suggested that we all
                                undercut our industry.
                                Could this be clarified?
                                I see people saying we should discuss our rates here, yet I don't
                                see people actually discussing their rates here.
                                Who goes first?
                                Everyone here has valid concerns, but is Dave is the only one who's
                                supposed to tell what he makes?
                                And think about this: if A doesn't want to undercut B, A needs to
                                know B's rates. But what if A *does* want to undercut B?
                                What does A need to know? Answer: same thing.
                                In some industries, agreeing on prices is more than unethical, it's
                                a federal crime.
                                Some industries are union-controlled, and equal pay is mandated.
                                Which is right? I dunno.
                                DrewBob
                              • sglpics
                                ... Hey Drew Bob, ...and hello to all my Atlanta Juggling friends...leave it to drew Bob to be the voice of reason, and bring up good points. While I am not a
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jun 20, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  --- In JUGGLING_GA@yahoogroups.com, Drewbob <wobble@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > DrewBob here.
                                  > I feel that I should be in on this conversation. After all, I took
                                  > the job, too.
                                  > And so did several other people who Jonathon knows ( maybe Cap'n
                                  > Mike,too). I hope it's not being suggested that we all
                                  > undercut our industry.
                                  > Could this be clarified?
                                  > I see people saying we should discuss our rates here, yet I don't
                                  > see people actually discussing their rates here.
                                  > Who goes first?
                                  > Everyone here has valid concerns, but is Dave is the only one who's
                                  > supposed to tell what he makes?
                                  > And think about this: if A doesn't want to undercut B, A needs to
                                  > know B's rates. But what if A *does* want to undercut B?
                                  > What does A need to know? Answer: same thing.
                                  > In some industries, agreeing on prices is more than unethical, it's
                                  > a federal crime.
                                  > Some industries are union-controlled, and equal pay is mandated.
                                  > Which is right? I dunno.
                                  > DrewBob
                                  >

                                  Hey Drew Bob,
                                  ...and hello to all my Atlanta Juggling friends...leave it to drew Bob to be the voice of
                                  reason, and bring up good points. While I am not a regular member of the Atlanta Juggling
                                  community, and am a little reluctant to get into this. I am a full time professional juggler
                                  and I do work in the Southeastern region, and am also a member of this forum, so I'll
                                  throw my few cents in...
                                  I won't touch the subject of who accused who of undercutting or doing whatever...I will
                                  touch in the subject of rates... (I also happen to be a member of the stagehands union,
                                  IATSE) My rates are ususally based on a per job basis. While there is a certain range that
                                  always applies. I make it a habit of not printing or advertising rates as they are always
                                  negotiable (routing, block bookings, other perks thrown in, relationship with the client,
                                  etc.) however, to discuss them in juggling forum , I feel, is a little different than
                                  adverstising my rates. This is not a commercial forum, is it? I'm not sure what the final
                                  consensus was on whether discussing rates on this forum is OK or not. But I have no
                                  problems discussing my rates with anyone at anytime. As I stated in my earlier post, I feel
                                  that when all artists in a certain field (perticularly a newby) are informed as to what the
                                  range of going rates are, then they are more able to determine what is an acceptable range
                                  of fees to charge. I don't think that this kind of talk could ever be constituted as a federal
                                  offense. In unions, we call it collective bargaining. We are not "price fixing". As far as one
                                  act tryng to undercut another, well... not much you can do about that. I set my rates on
                                  each job based on the particular gig and what they want from me, as well as my own level
                                  of skill and experience...I never, ever, base my rate on what anyone alse might be asking.
                                  Sure I probably have lost a few gigs to other cheaper, less qualified acts. But you know
                                  what, a client who is just shopping for the cheapest act is usually not the type of clients I
                                  want to work with anyway. I like to work for people who want my specific act, or they want
                                  a certain level of quality and experience, not the most affordable.
                                  My final thought is...I think what both Mike and Jonathan were trying to say is, The Braves
                                  have lots of money and the market can afford to pay reasonable rates for good talent,
                                  don't let them try to get you for anything less than you deserve...that's just the way I read
                                  it...
                                  Steve aka Alfredo Fettucini
                                • LUIC
                                  ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jul 3, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    >

                                    > When Anthony Gatto quits juggling to go into the family landscape
                                    > business,
                                    > that tells me its a hard market..
                                    > I think we have to wait for a new
                                    > renissance (agfter King George Bush is outta there)..
                                    >
                                    > bobler
                                    >



                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: Dave Altman
                                    > Sent: Jun 18, 2006 10:55 AM
                                    > To: JUGGLING_GA@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: Re: [JUGGLING_GA] Re: FW: This weekend - Braves series
                                    >
                                    > Hi Ya'll,
                                    >
                                    > Yeah, you guys are right, please post all your rates here, also,
                                    > you might as well post your 2005 income taxes, I'd like to know
                                    > what everyone's makes and what deductions you are getting away
                                    > with. Good hide-sight call, about the contract, Steve. It is good
                                    > advice and that will be my SOP from now on. I am in the process to
                                    > still work today. It was a real crappy thing for them to do. Ya'll
                                    > are blaming the victim, too. This hasn't ever happened to me before
                                    > and if she doesn't live up to her side of the contact, either a
                                    > contract thru email/phone calls or a signed contract; I strongly
                                    > suggest that anyone that deals with her in the future, be extremely
                                    > weary.
                                    >
                                    > I reminds me of a story about a man riding a horse on a long trip
                                    > and his horse got stolen. One bystander said, you should have
                                    > hobbled your horse, another bystander said you shouldn't be
                                    > traveling at this time of the year, and yet another bystander said,
                                    > its not right to own a horse, you should be walking anyway.
                                    >
                                    > Jonathan, why are you still working walk-around gigs in Atlanta,
                                    > anyway? I thought you moved out of state and if you are so fricking
                                    > good, why aren't you doing just stage work? Leave walk-around gigs
                                    > to us low quality jugglers and you go work in Vegas or something.
                                    >
                                    > Dave
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: sglpics
                                    > To: JUGGLING_GA@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2006 9:17 AM
                                    > Subject: [JUGGLING_GA] Re: FW: This weekend - Braves series
                                    >
                                    > --- In JUGGLING_GA@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Altman" <farm369@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hi Cap'n Mike,
                                    > >
                                    > > You might have misunderstood me. I did appreciate Jonathan
                                    > advice. Personally, I would
                                    > rather discuss actual prices and fees by private email. The forum
                                    > is a little too public, but I
                                    > agree that we should communicate with each other about pricing and
                                    > other concerns.
                                    > >
                                    > > Something did happen about this gig. We worked Fri and today,
                                    > than we were told that
                                    > on Sunday wasn't necessary for us to come because the lines weren't
                                    > as long as they had
                                    > hoped. I'm not happy with Mitali. First she calls on Thursday for
                                    > the weekend. I have to
                                    > make several calls to get a confirmation from her, then call four
                                    > other people to get them
                                    > to work on such short notice. Then she backs out of the contract by
                                    > shorting the agreed
                                    > upon dates.
                                    > >
                                    > > I am going to double check with her tomorrow to see if our
                                    > services were up to par, if
                                    > not, what was wrong; if they were satisfactory, she should live up
                                    > to the contract. She
                                    > originally wanted 10 people, I supplied 5; she asked if I knew any
                                    > mimes on Friday
                                    > afternoon, indicating she was happy with everyone and she wanted
                                    > even more people,
                                    > then when we got there this morning, we were told not to bother
                                    > coming on Sunday.
                                    > >
                                    > > Dave
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > From: seasideshowman
                                    > > To: JUGGLING_GA@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2006 9:42 AM
                                    > > Subject: [JUGGLING_GA] Re: FW: This weekend - Braves series
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > Alfredo Fettucini here,
                                    > Happy post "World Juggling Day" to all you Georgia Jugglers. I just
                                    > wanted to add a few
                                    > comments to the mix here. I do not personally feel that it is that
                                    > much of a b



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