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Re: [J28Sailors] advice on rudder bearing and rudder shaft stuffing box

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  • Hans Andersen
    Hi Frank, Don t worry too much about the Rudder bearing. First check the Packing around the Rudder Remove all the Bolts and install new Packing there is
    Message 1 of 5 , Jul 6, 2013
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      Hi Frank,
      Don't worry too much about the Rudder bearing.
      First check the Packing around the Rudder Remove all the Bolts and install new Packing
      there is information in the group,
      I had some play fore and aft when the boat was on the hard and I replaced the Stuffing
      I made a big mistake of dropping  two small Washers into the bearing and I did not know it until sometime after it
      was launch the wheel got VERY hard to turn but I finished the season
      When it was back out on the hard again I was able to drop the Rudder down until it was stopped by the
      Quadroon I had to remove the cables, but when it was down I could see the Stainless bearing and the sleeve
      They both looked good and the two Washers dropped out I did not know that I had dropped the washers until then
      After greasing the bearings the rudder was pushed back up and new Packing was replaced again
      the bolts on the sleeve should not be too tight
      I had a friend help me do this job and we are both over 65.
      I used a hydraulic lift under the rudder first to push it up to remove the bolts and again to let it down
      then to push up into place.
      My friend was in the cockpit and guided the rudder post he used the emergency tiller to guide it up as I used
      the hydraulic lift to push it up
      Note: I would start with replacing the packing then see if the bearings need to be replaced
      There are some info available on this site
      Good luck and welcome to our Group
      Hans
      J28
      "Last Dance"
       
      ---- Original Message ----
      From: wymanfrank <wymanfrank@...>
      To: J28Sailors <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sat, Jul 6, 2013 11:03 am
      Subject: [J28Sailors] advice on rudder bearing and rudder shaft stuffing box

       
      I am the proud new owner of a J28 and couldn't be more thrilled! This week will be in route to new hailing port Charleston SC, from TX. Gonna do a bit of work before refloating - nothing too major. Running rigging, bottom job, etc. But I'm concerned about one aspect - the rudder - and am looking for any advice. When I was on boat (in water) I couldn't have been happier with the movement in the wheel/rudder - no loose play whatever and turned totally free and smooth one end to other. I checked it pretty thoroughly since I'd read a good bit on the issue of the bottom bearing not being aligned w/ shape of hull bottom etc. So, although the recent survey (out of water, and no I wasn't there) didn't find any major issues w/ the boat, I was a bit surprised to get the following from surveyor:

      "The lower rudder bearing is worn - bearing needs to be renewed during the next haul-out. The fiberglass packing gland is loose - all securing bolts loose - recommend packing gland be properly installed."

      While I was able to reduce price a bit b/c of this, I am now a bit concerned it might cost way more than I bargained for, as I just found something from Jul 2010 in this group referencing $1800 for the job (1500+ of which was labor). I really don't want to tackle this job of dropping rudder myself and am willing to pay the pros to tackle this one -- should I really be expecting $1800 cost?

      Also, I saw somewhere about Jefa bearings being an excellent choice for replacement once. So a few weeks ago I contacted Jefa but they could not give me a specific bearing for the J28 rudder shaft. Any suggestions on a good replacement bearing?

      I've also read about basically keeping stuffing loose as can be without leaking - I am supposing to compensate for the "out of alignment with hull bottom" aspect. Is this perhaps why it was so lose on my boat? ... and maybe it needs to kinda stay that way?

      Anyhow, just a bit concerned (esp since all but one of my prior boats have had aft hung rudders so no worries about sinking b/c of rudder shaft issues!) and so looking for some friendly bottom-line advice on what works best regarding the J28 lower rudder bearing and rudder shaft stuffing box adjustment.

      Thanks!
      Frank

    • John
      Frank, I agree with Hans. The lower bearings on these boats are very robust and a bit play in the rudder is ok. Repack the gland if needed or just snug the
      Message 2 of 5 , Jul 9, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        Frank,

        I agree with Hans. The lower bearings on these boats are very robust and a bit play in the rudder is ok. Repack the gland if needed or just snug the bolts. The gland has a taper fit so the tighter the bolts the tighter the seal and hence the tighter the rudder. I have mine barely passed finger tight as I like a free feel on the wheel.

        John

        --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Hans Andersen <hansandsharon@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Hi Frank,
        > Don't worry too much about the Rudder bearing.
        > First check the Packing around the Rudder Remove all the Bolts and install new Packing
        > there is information in the group,
        > I had some play fore and aft when the boat was on the hard and I replaced the Stuffing
        > I made a big mistake of dropping two small Washers into the bearing and I did not know it until sometime after it
        > was launch the wheel got VERY hard to turn but I finished the season
        > When it was back out on the hard again I was able to drop the Rudder down until it was stopped by the
        > Quadroon I had to remove the cables, but when it was down I could see the Stainless bearing and the sleeve
        > They both looked good and the two Washers dropped out I did not know that I had dropped the washers until then
        > After greasing the bearings the rudder was pushed back up and new Packing was replaced again
        > the bolts on the sleeve should not be too tight
        > I had a friend help me do this job and we are both over 65.
        > I used a hydraulic lift under the rudder first to push it up to remove the bolts and again to let it down
        > then to push up into place.
        > My friend was in the cockpit and guided the rudder post he used the emergency tiller to guide it up as I used
        > the hydraulic lift to push it up
        > Note: I would start with replacing the packing then see if the bearings need to be replaced
        > There are some info available on this site
        > Good luck and welcome to our Group
        > Hans
        > J28
        > "Last Dance"
        >
        >
        >
        > ---- Original Message ----
        > From: wymanfrank <wymanfrank@...>
        > To: J28Sailors <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Sat, Jul 6, 2013 11:03 am
        > Subject: [J28Sailors] advice on rudder bearing and rudder shaft stuffing box
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > I am the proud new owner of a J28 and couldn't be more thrilled! This week will be in route to new hailing port Charleston SC, from TX. Gonna do a bit of work before refloating - nothing too major. Running rigging, bottom job, etc. But I'm concerned about one aspect - the rudder - and am looking for any advice. When I was on boat (in water) I couldn't have been happier with the movement in the wheel/rudder - no loose play whatever and turned totally free and smooth one end to other. I checked it pretty thoroughly since I'd read a good bit on the issue of the bottom bearing not being aligned w/ shape of hull bottom etc. So, although the recent survey (out of water, and no I wasn't there) didn't find any major issues w/ the boat, I was a bit surprised to get the following from surveyor:
        >
        > "The lower rudder bearing is worn - bearing needs to be renewed during the next haul-out. The fiberglass packing gland is loose - all securing bolts loose - recommend packing gland be properly installed."
        >
        > While I was able to reduce price a bit b/c of this, I am now a bit concerned it might cost way more than I bargained for, as I just found something from Jul 2010 in this group referencing $1800 for the job (1500+ of which was labor). I really don't want to tackle this job of dropping rudder myself and am willing to pay the pros to tackle this one -- should I really be expecting $1800 cost?
        >
        > Also, I saw somewhere about Jefa bearings being an excellent choice for replacement once. So a few weeks ago I contacted Jefa but they could not give me a specific bearing for the J28 rudder shaft. Any suggestions on a good replacement bearing?
        >
        > I've also read about basically keeping stuffing loose as can be without leaking - I am supposing to compensate for the "out of alignment with hull bottom" aspect. Is this perhaps why it was so lose on my boat? ... and maybe it needs to kinda stay that way?
        >
        > Anyhow, just a bit concerned (esp since all but one of my prior boats have had aft hung rudders so no worries about sinking b/c of rudder shaft issues!) and so looking for some friendly bottom-line advice on what works best regarding the J28 lower rudder bearing and rudder shaft stuffing box adjustment.
        >
        > Thanks!
        > Frank
        >
      • Bill Foster
        Frank, I agree with John, Hans as well. I worried about my lower bearing at first, 2 years ago when I bought our boat. Grabbing the bottom of the rudder I can
        Message 3 of 5 , Jul 9, 2013
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          Frank,

           

          I agree with John, Hans as well. I worried about my lower bearing at first, 2 years ago when I bought our boat. Grabbing the bottom of the rudder I can shake it around, a little bit (mostly side to side, and very little fore and aft). To most people it looks like some play, but in practice it seems to work well. I think the stock flexes a fair bit when the rudder is loaded and so some slop is required. The only time I have noticed it as an issue is when pushing the boat hard in reaching conditions with large quartering seas. When the boat starts to slow down after a surf and is overtaken by a quartering wave, it seems the pressure on the rudder may shift from one side to the other as I adjust the helm to counter the wave action. When this happens on a few occasions I have heard/felt the rudder slap from one side to the other in the bearing. I’m not saying this is good, just something I have noticed and I do try to be cognizant of. I am comfortable with the arrangement for now. If I were to plan to say, sail the boat to Bermuda I would drop the rudder and most likely replace the bearing as a precaution.

           

          On this topic, sorry Frank to maybe hijack here. But have others noticed the mild steel grease nipple in the side of the FRP lower bearing housing? I’m almost certain this bearing should not be greased, it should be water lubricated, so why the nipple? Also, have others noticed the grease nipple leaking? I did replace my rudder packing last spring, and found I could not fit much into the space, I think only one or two layers of 3/8” if I remember correctly. And I overnighted the FRP seating ring at first and it definitely bound the rudder up, as John warned. So I backed off to hand tight/loose and it turns nicely. However I have noticed this year when the boat is under power, pushing water at 6.25 to 6.5 knots I think I now have water coming in via the post, as the stern drops into the hole in the water im making. Has anyone else noticed this? I know my cockpit drains leak ever so slightly and they are on the list for replacement, but I don’t think they are the source when under power.

           

          Regards,


          Bill

           

           

           

           

          From: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com [mailto:J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John
          Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2013 11:01 AM
          To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: advice on rudder bearing and rudder shaft stuffing box

           

           

          Frank,

          I agree with Hans. The lower bearings on these boats are very robust and a bit play in the rudder is ok. Repack the gland if needed or just snug the bolts. The gland has a taper fit so the tighter the bolts the tighter the seal and hence the tighter the rudder. I have mine barely passed finger tight as I like a free feel on the wheel.

          John

          --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Hans Andersen <hansandsharon@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hi Frank,
          > Don't worry too much about the Rudder bearing.
          > First check the Packing around the Rudder Remove all the Bolts and install new Packing
          > there is information in the group,
          > I had some play fore and aft when the boat was on the hard and I replaced the Stuffing
          > I made a big mistake of dropping two small Washers into the bearing and I did not know it until sometime after it
          > was launch the wheel got VERY hard to turn but I finished the season
          > When it was back out on the hard again I was able to drop the Rudder down until it was stopped by the
          > Quadroon I had to remove the cables, but when it was down I could see the Stainless bearing and the sleeve
          > They both looked good and the two Washers dropped out I did not know that I had dropped the washers until then
          > After greasing the bearings the rudder was pushed back up and new Packing was replaced again
          > the bolts on the sleeve should not be too tight
          > I had a friend help me do this job and we are both over 65.
          > I used a hydraulic lift under the rudder first to push it up to remove the bolts and again to let it down
          > then to push up into place.
          > My friend was in the cockpit and guided the rudder post he used the emergency tiller to guide it up as I used
          > the hydraulic lift to push it up
          > Note: I would start with replacing the packing then see if the bearings need to be replaced
          > There are some info available on this site
          > Good luck and welcome to our Group
          > Hans
          > J28
          > "Last Dance"
          >
          >
          >
          > ---- Original Message ----
          > From: wymanfrank <wymanfrank@...>
          > To: J28Sailors <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Sat, Jul 6, 2013 11:03 am
          > Subject: [J28Sailors] advice on rudder bearing and rudder shaft stuffing box
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > I am the proud new owner of a J28 and couldn't be more thrilled! This week will be in route to new hailing port Charleston SC, from TX. Gonna do a bit of work before refloating - nothing too major. Running rigging, bottom job, etc. But I'm concerned about one aspect - the rudder - and am looking for any advice. When I was on boat (in water) I couldn't have been happier with the movement in the wheel/rudder - no loose play whatever and turned totally free and smooth one end to other. I checked it pretty thoroughly since I'd read a good bit on the issue of the bottom bearing not being aligned w/ shape of hull bottom etc. So, although the recent survey (out of water, and no I wasn't there) didn't find any major issues w/ the boat, I was a bit surprised to get the following from surveyor:
          >
          > "The lower rudder bearing is worn - bearing needs to be renewed during the next haul-out. The fiberglass packing gland is loose - all securing bolts loose - recommend packing gland be properly installed."
          >
          > While I was able to reduce price a bit b/c of this, I am now a bit concerned it might cost way more than I bargained for, as I just found something from Jul 2010 in this group referencing $1800 for the job (1500+ of which was labor). I really don't want to tackle this job of dropping rudder myself and am willing to pay the pros to tackle this one -- should I really be expecting $1800 cost?
          >
          > Also, I saw somewhere about Jefa bearings being an excellent choice for replacement once. So a few weeks ago I contacted Jefa but they could not give me a specific bearing for the J28 rudder shaft. Any suggestions on a good replacement bearing?
          >
          > I've also read about basically keeping stuffing loose as can be without leaking - I am supposing to compensate for the "out of alignment with hull bottom" aspect. Is this perhaps why it was so lose on my boat? ... and maybe it needs to kinda stay that way?
          >
          > Anyhow, just a bit concerned (esp since all but one of my prior boats have had aft hung rudders so no worries about sinking b/c of rudder shaft issues!) and so looking for some friendly bottom-line advice on what works best regarding the J28 lower rudder bearing and rudder shaft stuffing box adjustment.
          >
          > Thanks!
          > Frank
          >

        • wymanfrank
          Thanks so much Bill/John/Hans for relieving my stress over this lower rudder bearing issue! Esp after talking to the fine folks at Jefa bearings today who were
          Message 4 of 5 , Jul 9, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            Thanks so much Bill/John/Hans for relieving my stress over this lower rudder bearing issue! Esp after talking to the fine folks at Jefa bearings today who were suggesting two rather radical (IMO) options: cutting out the original rudder tube and replacing it with a bearing/rudder tube that gets glassed in the original's place and/or using an ~ $800 "self aligning" bearing. I'll start by just adjusting the packing.
            No problem hijacking - can never get too much info IMO no mater where discussion migrates to. so here let me hijack it myself! Your reaching with quartering sea reminded me of once many moons ago doing the exact same heading into Marathon trying to out run a little squall. With the leeward beach no more than quarter mile and me at the help POW and then ZING! The chain from the wheel inside pedestal had popped with just the type pressure I think you're talking about on the rudder. Suddenly no steering whatever - and the combers fast approaching straight downwind! After futzing around for 2-3 minutes with a ready found adjustable wrench and with the combers getting ever closer the boat owner finally found the emergency tiller and all was well as we swung back to continue reaching down the beach to the inlet w/ the emerg tiller in place. p.s. next day as I scouted all around Marathon all day unsuccessfully searching for a replacement chain I eventually wound up at some local motorcycle dive bar and found out that Harley chain is the exact same chain as what I needed! Had the helm all fixed up in just a couple hours after! I still sail on that Ericson 32 now 25 years later and I recently asked about the chain and he said it was still the same replacement! Ok - sorry in advance for the hijacking diversion!

            --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Foster" <bill@...> wrote:
            >
            > Frank,
            >
            >
            >
            > I agree with John, Hans as well. I worried about my lower bearing at first,
            > 2 years ago when I bought our boat. Grabbing the bottom of the rudder I can
            > shake it around, a little bit (mostly side to side, and very little fore and
            > aft). To most people it looks like some play, but in practice it seems to
            > work well. I think the stock flexes a fair bit when the rudder is loaded and
            > so some slop is required. The only time I have noticed it as an issue is
            > when pushing the boat hard in reaching conditions with large quartering
            > seas. When the boat starts to slow down after a surf and is overtaken by a
            > quartering wave, it seems the pressure on the rudder may shift from one side
            > to the other as I adjust the helm to counter the wave action. When this
            > happens on a few occasions I have heard/felt the rudder slap from one side
            > to the other in the bearing. I'm not saying this is good, just something I
            > have noticed and I do try to be cognizant of. I am comfortable with the
            > arrangement for now. If I were to plan to say, sail the boat to Bermuda I
            > would drop the rudder and most likely replace the bearing as a precaution.
            >
            >
            >
            > On this topic, sorry Frank to maybe hijack here. But have others noticed the
            > mild steel grease nipple in the side of the FRP lower bearing housing? I'm
            > almost certain this bearing should not be greased, it should be water
            > lubricated, so why the nipple? Also, have others noticed the grease nipple
            > leaking? I did replace my rudder packing last spring, and found I could not
            > fit much into the space, I think only one or two layers of 3/8" if I
            > remember correctly. And I overnighted the FRP seating ring at first and it
            > definitely bound the rudder up, as John warned. So I backed off to hand
            > tight/loose and it turns nicely. However I have noticed this year when the
            > boat is under power, pushing water at 6.25 to 6.5 knots I think I now have
            > water coming in via the post, as the stern drops into the hole in the water
            > im making. Has anyone else noticed this? I know my cockpit drains leak ever
            > so slightly and they are on the list for replacement, but I don't think they
            > are the source when under power.
            >
            >
            >
            > Regards,
            >
            >
            > Bill
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > From: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com [mailto:J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com] On
            > Behalf Of John
            > Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2013 11:01 AM
            > To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: advice on rudder bearing and rudder shaft stuffing
            > box
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Frank,
            >
            > I agree with Hans. The lower bearings on these boats are very robust and a
            > bit play in the rudder is ok. Repack the gland if needed or just snug the
            > bolts. The gland has a taper fit so the tighter the bolts the tighter the
            > seal and hence the tighter the rudder. I have mine barely passed finger
            > tight as I like a free feel on the wheel.
            >
            > John
            >
            > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com <mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com> ,
            > Hans Andersen <hansandsharon@> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > Hi Frank,
            > > Don't worry too much about the Rudder bearing.
            > > First check the Packing around the Rudder Remove all the Bolts and install
            > new Packing
            > > there is information in the group,
            > > I had some play fore and aft when the boat was on the hard and I replaced
            > the Stuffing
            > > I made a big mistake of dropping two small Washers into the bearing and I
            > did not know it until sometime after it
            > > was launch the wheel got VERY hard to turn but I finished the season
            > > When it was back out on the hard again I was able to drop the Rudder down
            > until it was stopped by the
            > > Quadroon I had to remove the cables, but when it was down I could see the
            > Stainless bearing and the sleeve
            > > They both looked good and the two Washers dropped out I did not know that
            > I had dropped the washers until then
            > > After greasing the bearings the rudder was pushed back up and new Packing
            > was replaced again
            > > the bolts on the sleeve should not be too tight
            > > I had a friend help me do this job and we are both over 65.
            > > I used a hydraulic lift under the rudder first to push it up to remove the
            > bolts and again to let it down
            > > then to push up into place.
            > > My friend was in the cockpit and guided the rudder post he used the
            > emergency tiller to guide it up as I used
            > > the hydraulic lift to push it up
            > > Note: I would start with replacing the packing then see if the bearings
            > need to be replaced
            > > There are some info available on this site
            > > Good luck and welcome to our Group
            > > Hans
            > > J28
            > > "Last Dance"
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ---- Original Message ----
            > > From: wymanfrank <wymanfrank@>
            > > To: J28Sailors <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
            > <mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com> >
            > > Sent: Sat, Jul 6, 2013 11:03 am
            > > Subject: [J28Sailors] advice on rudder bearing and rudder shaft stuffing
            > box
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > I am the proud new owner of a J28 and couldn't be more thrilled! This week
            > will be in route to new hailing port Charleston SC, from TX. Gonna do a bit
            > of work before refloating - nothing too major. Running rigging, bottom job,
            > etc. But I'm concerned about one aspect - the rudder - and am looking for
            > any advice. When I was on boat (in water) I couldn't have been happier with
            > the movement in the wheel/rudder - no loose play whatever and turned totally
            > free and smooth one end to other. I checked it pretty thoroughly since I'd
            > read a good bit on the issue of the bottom bearing not being aligned w/
            > shape of hull bottom etc. So, although the recent survey (out of water, and
            > no I wasn't there) didn't find any major issues w/ the boat, I was a bit
            > surprised to get the following from surveyor:
            > >
            > > "The lower rudder bearing is worn - bearing needs to be renewed during the
            > next haul-out. The fiberglass packing gland is loose - all securing bolts
            > loose - recommend packing gland be properly installed."
            > >
            > > While I was able to reduce price a bit b/c of this, I am now a bit
            > concerned it might cost way more than I bargained for, as I just found
            > something from Jul 2010 in this group referencing $1800 for the job (1500+
            > of which was labor). I really don't want to tackle this job of dropping
            > rudder myself and am willing to pay the pros to tackle this one -- should I
            > really be expecting $1800 cost?
            > >
            > > Also, I saw somewhere about Jefa bearings being an excellent choice for
            > replacement once. So a few weeks ago I contacted Jefa but they could not
            > give me a specific bearing for the J28 rudder shaft. Any suggestions on a
            > good replacement bearing?
            > >
            > > I've also read about basically keeping stuffing loose as can be without
            > leaking - I am supposing to compensate for the "out of alignment with hull
            > bottom" aspect. Is this perhaps why it was so lose on my boat? ... and maybe
            > it needs to kinda stay that way?
            > >
            > > Anyhow, just a bit concerned (esp since all but one of my prior boats have
            > had aft hung rudders so no worries about sinking b/c of rudder shaft
            > issues!) and so looking for some friendly bottom-line advice on what works
            > best regarding the J28 lower rudder bearing and rudder shaft stuffing box
            > adjustment.
            > >
            > > Thanks!
            > > Frank
            > >
            >
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