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Re: [J28Sailors] More diesel questions

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  • thistle4002
    now i wish i had bought the gori...but the fouling (barnaccles) in m area are so bad, i was talked out of a gear prop by other local sailors... live and learn!
    Message 1 of 18 , Jun 3, 2013
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      now i wish i had bought the gori...but the fouling (barnaccles) in m area are so bad, i was talked out of a gear prop by other local sailors...
      live and learn!


      On Jun 3, 2013, at 10:24 PM, Jason Smith wrote:

       

      Yeah....I have a variprofile feathering prop....it's geared and it's awesome.  $1800

      On Monday, June 3, 2013, David Hastings wrote:

       

      JP,

      There is no comparison between a geared, feathering prop and a Martec. There is absolutely no play in the geared feathering prop. Zero. Tight. There is always play in a Martec no matter how new and balanced. Thus, there's always vibration and noise with a Martec that is not present on a Geared prop. The original Martec on my J29 fell off and I replaced it with a Gori geared folding prop and there was an immediate noticeable change. Less vibration, less noise and much more stopping power. It cost double a Martec at that time. My J28 came with a geared feathering prop. I don't know the brand but it looks it cost mega bucks, like triple or more than a Martec. BUT, it is solid, no play, stops the boat on a dime, it's smooth and quiet. Still, any two banger is going to vibrate. I think you worry too much.

      Sent from my iPad

      David L. Hastings
      5608 W. Woodside Dr.
      Crystal River, FL 34429
      Home: 352-794-6440
      Cell: 315-345-2078

      On Jun 3, 2013, at 9:54 PM, sailingmaster@... wrote:

       

      I just put a brand new Martec 16X12 on the boat. It is noisey when it opens and closes.  The old prop was also Martec, but out of balance. (I tried to save a few bucks on ebay)  Its the original 16X14 which is a little too much for the diesel.  Does anybody want a spare?  :)    The vibration is MUCH better than the other prop but there is still some...I only have a few (much newer) boats to compare that seem smoother...but I would assume there would be some on any small engine?


      JP
      On Jun 3, 2013, at 7:44 PM, jhoagg123 wrote:

       



      I think I definitely get noise and vibration from the Martec prop, as David indicated. However, I now wonder if that could be greatly alleviated by having Martec refurbish the prop, which they do at reasonable cost. I wish I had sent it to them while I had the boat on the hard.

      --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@...> wrote:
      >
      > JP,
      >
      > My boat has a feathering prop. She runs smooth as silk. No unusual vibrations. This past winter I went sailing with Jeff Hoagg, and his boat, a shoal draft just like mine, has the original Martec gravity opening prop. I couldn't believe the difference. It was noisy and certainly had plenty of vibration. (Please excuse my comments, Jeff. I Had a wonderful sail and hope you'll have me down again this coming winter). Based on this, I'd suspect the prop. And, there's no way your two banger can compare to the smooth ride of the three cylinder Kubota. But, I'll take a Yanmar any day. Nothing runs like a Yanmar, not even a Deere.
      >
      > Sent from my iPad
      >
      > David L. Hastings
      > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
      > Crystal River, FL 34429
      > Home: 352-794-6440
      > Cell: 315-345-2078
      >
      > On Jun 2, 2013, at 7:38 PM, "John" <sailingmaster@...> wrote:
      >
      > > Okay, I maybe buying trouble here.....
      > >
      > > I am curious as to how much vibration experience with the engine running.
      > >
      > > I recently sailed on an olson 30 and the engine was incredibly smooth. (Kubota 3 cylinder)
      > >
      > > I would expect some vibration with a 2 cyl engine...even my boat yard says the Yanmar 2gm shuld be "doing and Irish Jig" with everything aligned properly
      > >
      > > Last year, I had to replace a prop, after buying a bad used one (lesson learned) the vibration was much less...but there is still some...enough to that there is a little chatter from loose lateches on the lazerette etc... but not shaking the boat.
      > >
      > > I inspected my cutless bearing this year and it seemed looser then memory servers...just a tiny bit of play...but again, Im still learning about big boats and sometimes my curiosity gets me worried!
      > >
      > > LOL
      > >
      > > JP
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > __________________________________________________________
      > > Top 3 Stocks for 2013
      > > 3 Stocks with Outstanding Growth Potential.
      > > TheStockReport.com
      >





      ____________________________________________________________
      "New Way to Build Muscle"
      The Bizarre Approach to New Muscle Growth and Belly Fat Loss...
      HLifestyles.com



    • David Hastings
      JP, you need to get a Laser. Sent from my iPad David L. Hastings 5608 W. Woodside Dr. Crystal River, FL 34429 Home: 352-794-6440 Cell: 315-345-2078
      Message 2 of 18 , Jun 3, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        JP, you need to get a Laser.

        Sent from my iPad

        David L. Hastings
        5608 W. Woodside Dr.
        Crystal River, FL 34429
        Home: 352-794-6440
        Cell: 315-345-2078

        On Jun 3, 2013, at 10:20 PM, sailingmaster@... wrote:

         

        You can get pretty good idea on the Gori Web site.

        My martec was about 750 and I think the comparable gori was going to be about 1200...I spent that and more after trying to save a few bucks on ebay...especailly have the short haul

        I am beginning to think David is right.....I worrry too much lol!   Sorry, I am used to boats with NO engine that sail really fast and can be stored in a garage!

        JP
        On Jun 3, 2013, at 10:14 PM, Jerry Nulton wrote:

         

        I'm curious, how much did the geared prop cost?  That's still a folding prop right?

        Sent from my iPhone

        On Jun 3, 2013, at 10:11 PM, David Hastings <david.hastings@...> wrote:

         

        JP,

        There is no comparison between a geared, feathering prop and a Martec. There is absolutely no play in the geared feathering prop. Zero. Tight. There is always play in a Martec no matter how new and balanced. Thus, there's always vibration and noise with a Martec that is not present on a Geared prop. The original Martec on my J29 fell off and I replaced it with a Gori geared folding prop and there was an immediate noticeable change. Less vibration, less noise and much more stopping power. It cost double a Martec at that time. My J28 came with a geared feathering prop. I don't know the brand but it looks it cost mega bucks, like triple or more than a Martec. BUT, it is solid, no play, stops the boat on a dime, it's smooth and quiet. Still, any two banger is going to vibrate. I think you worry too much.

        Sent from my iPad

        David L. Hastings
        5608 W. Woodside Dr.
        Crystal River, FL 34429
        Home: 352-794-6440
        Cell: 315-345-2078

        On Jun 3, 2013, at 9:54 PM, sailingmaster@... wrote:

         

        I just put a brand new Martec 16X12 on the boat. It is noisey when it opens and closes.  The old prop was also Martec, but out of balance. (I tried to save a few bucks on ebay)  Its the original 16X14 which is a little too much for the diesel.  Does anybody want a spare?  :)    The vibration is MUCH better than the other prop but there is still some...I only have a few (much newer) boats to compare that seem smoother...but I would assume there would be some on any small engine?


        JP
        On Jun 3, 2013, at 7:44 PM, jhoagg123 wrote:

         



        I think I definitely get noise and vibration from the Martec prop, as David indicated. However, I now wonder if that could be greatly alleviated by having Martec refurbish the prop, which they do at reasonable cost.! I wish I had sent it to them while I had the boat on the hard.

        --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@...> wrote:
        >
        > JP,
        >
        > My boat has a feathering prop. She runs smooth as silk. No unusual vibrations. This past winter I went sailing with Jeff Hoagg, and his boat, a shoal draft just like mine, has the original Martec gravity opening prop. I couldn't believe the difference. It was noisy and certainly had plenty of vibration. (Please excuse my comments, Jeff. I Had a wonderful sail and hope you'll have me down again this coming winter). Based on this, I'd suspect the prop. And, there's no way your two banger can compare to the smooth ride of the three cylinder Kubota. But, I'll take a Yanmar any day. Nothing runs like a Yanmar, not even a Deere.
        >
        > Sent from my iPad
        >
        > David L. Hastings
        > 5608 W. Woodside Dr. > Crystal River, FL 34429
        > Home: 352-794-6440
        > C ell: 315-345-2078
        >
        > On Jun 2, 2013, at 7:38 PM, "John" <sailingmaster@...> wrote:
        >
        > > Okay, I maybe buying trouble here.....
        > >
        > > I am curious as to how much vibration experience with the engine running.
        > >
        > > I recently sailed on an olson 30 and the engine was incredibly smooth. (Kubota 3 cylinder)
        > >
        > > I would expect some vibration with a 2 cyl engine...even my boat yard says the Yanmar 2gm shuld be "doing and Irish Jig" with everything aligned properly
        > >
        > > Last year, I had to replace a prop, after buying a bad used one (lesson learned) the vibration was much less...but there is still some...enough to that there is a little chatter from loose lateches on the lazerette etc... but not shaking the boat.
        > >
        > > I inspected my cutless bearing this year and it seemed looser then memory servers...just a tiny bit of play..! .but again, Im still learning about big boats and sometimes my curiosity gets me worried!
        > >
        > > LOL
        > >
        > > JP
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > __________________________________________________________
        > > Top 3 Stocks for 2013
        > > 3 Stocks with Outstanding Growth Potential.
        > > TheStockReport.com
        >





        ____________________________________________________________
        "New Way to Build Muscle"
        The Bizarre Approach to New Muscle Growth and Belly Fat Loss...
        HLifestyles.com





        ____________________________________________________________
        "New Way to Build Muscle"
        The Bizarre Approach to New Muscle Growth and Belly Fat Loss...
        HLifestyles.com
      • David Hastings
        Jason, I think mine is Variprofile and yes, it s awesome, better than the Gori and Martec. I figured it would be more than $1,800. It s well worth the price
        Message 3 of 18 , Jun 3, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          Jason, I think mine is Variprofile and yes, it's awesome, better than the Gori and Martec. I figured it would be more than $1,800. It's well worth the price and I can't imagine barnacles could be a problem with it. But, I'm sure you'd want to run it pretty regularly.

          Sent from my iPad

          David L. Hastings
          5608 W. Woodside Dr.
          Crystal River, FL 34429
          Home: 352-794-6440
          Cell: 315-345-2078

          On Jun 3, 2013, at 10:24 PM, Jason Smith <jason3317@...> wrote:

           

          Yeah....I have a variprofile feathering prop....it's geared and it's awesome.  $1800

          On Monday, June 3, 2013, David Hastings wrote:

           

          JP,

          There is no comparison between a geared, feathering prop and a Martec. There is absolutely no play in the geared feathering prop. Zero. Tight. There is always play in a Martec no matter how new and balanced. Thus, there's always vibration and noise with a Martec that is not present on a Geared prop. The original Martec on my J29 fell off and I replaced it with a Gori geared folding prop and there was an immediate noticeable change. Less vibration, less noise and much more stopping power. It cost double a Martec at that time. My J28 came with a geared feathering prop. I don't know the brand but it looks it cost mega bucks, like triple or more than a Martec. BUT, it is solid, no play, stops the boat on a dime, it's smooth and quiet. Still, any two banger is going to vibrate. I think you worry too much.

          Sent from my iPad

          David L. Hastings
          5608 W. Woodside Dr.
          Crystal River, FL 34429
          Home: 352-794-6440
          Cell: 315-345-2078

          On Jun 3, 2013, at 9:54 PM, sailingmaster@... wrote:

           

          I just put a brand new Martec 16X12 on the boat. It is noisey when it opens and closes.  The old prop was also Martec, but out of balance. (I tried to save a few bucks on ebay)  Its the original 16X14 which is a little too much for the diesel.  Does anybody want a spare?  :)    The vibration is MUCH better than the other prop but there is still some...I only have a few (much newer) boats to compare that seem smoother...but I would assume there would be some on any small engine?


          JP
          On Jun 3, 2013, at 7:44 PM, jhoagg123 wrote:

           



          I think I definitely get noise and vibration from the Martec prop, as David indicated. However, I now wonder if that could be greatly alleviated by having Martec refurbish the prop, which they do at reasonable cost. I wish I had sent it to them while I had the boat on the hard.

          --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@...> wrote:
          >
          > JP,
          >
          > My boat has a feathering prop. She runs smooth as silk. No unusual vibrations. This past winter I went sailing with Jeff Hoagg, and his boat, a shoal draft just like mine, has the original Martec gravity opening prop. I couldn't believe the difference. It was noisy and certainly had plenty of vibration. (Please excuse my comments, Jeff. I Had a wonderful sail and hope you'll have me down again this coming winter). Based on this, I'd suspect the prop. And, there's no way your two banger can compare to the smooth ride of the three cylinder Kubota. But, I'll take a Yanmar any day. Nothing runs like a Yanmar, not even a Deere.
          >
          > Sent from my iPad
          >
          > David L. Hastings
          > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
          > Crystal River, FL 34429
          > Home: 352-794-6440
          > Cell: 315-345-2078
          >
          > On Jun 2, 2013, at 7:38 PM, "John" <sailingmaster@...> wrote:
          >
          > > Okay, I maybe buying trouble here.....
          > >
          > > I am curious as to how much vibration experience with the engine running.
          > >
          > > I recently sailed on an olson 30 and the engine was incredibly smooth. (Kubota 3 cylinder)
          > >
          > > I would expect some vibration with a 2 cyl engine...even my boat yard says the Yanmar 2gm shuld be "doing and Irish Jig" with everything aligned properly
          > >
          > > Last year, I had to replace a prop, after buying a bad used one (lesson learned) the vibration was much less...but there is still some...enough to that there is a little chatter from loose lateches on the lazerette etc... but not shaking the boat.
          > >
          > > I inspected my cutless bearing this year and it seemed looser then memory servers...just a tiny bit of play...but again, Im still learning about big boats and sometimes my curiosity gets me worried!
          > >
          > > LOL
          > >
          > > JP
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > __________________________________________________________
          > > Top 3 Stocks for 2013
          > > 3 Stocks with Outstanding Growth Potential.
          > > TheStockReport.com
          >




          ____________________________________________________________
          "New Way to Build Muscle"
          The Bizarre Approach to New Muscle Growth and Belly Fat Loss...
          HLifestyles.com



          ____________________________________________________________
        • thistle4002
          not a laser,,,,im too big and slow...MC scow, Finn, Mobjack witha small crew for the trap lol...lasers are toys boats, I need one sized for a human....
          Message 4 of 18 , Jun 4, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            not a laser,,,,im too big and slow...MC scow, Finn, Mobjack witha small crew for the trap  lol...lasers are toys boats, I need one sized for a human....
            hahahah
            On Jun 3, 2013, at 10:53 PM, David Hastings wrote:

             

            JP, you need to get a Laser.

            Sent from my iPad

            David L. Hastings
            5608 W. Woodside Dr.
            Crystal River, FL 34429
            Home: 352-794-6440
            Cell: 315-345-2078

            On Jun 3, 2013, at 10:20 PM, sailingmaster@... wrote:

             

            You can get pretty good idea on the Gori Web site.

            My martec was about 750 and I think the comparable gori was going to be about 1200...I spent that and more after trying to save a few bucks on ebay...especailly have the short haul

            I am beginning to think David is right.....I worrry too much lol!   Sorry, I am used to boats with NO engine that sail really fast and can be stored in a garage!

            JP
            On Jun 3, 2013, at 10:14 PM, Jerry Nulton wrote:

             

            I'm curious, how much did the geared prop cost?  That's still a folding prop right?

            Sent from my iPhone

            On Jun 3, 2013, at 10:11 PM, David Hastings <david.hastings@...> wrote:

             

            JP,

            There is no comparison between a geared, feathering prop and a Martec. There is absolutely no play in the geared feathering prop. Zero. Tight. There is always play in a Martec no matter how new and balanced. Thus, there's always vibration and noise with a Martec that is not present on a Geared prop. The original Martec on my J29 fell off and I replaced it with a Gori geared folding prop and there was an immediate noticeable change. Less vibration, less noise and much more stopping power. It cost double a Martec at that time. My J28 came with a geared feathering prop. I don't know the brand but it looks it cost mega bucks, like triple or more than a Martec. BUT, it is solid, no play, stops the boat on a dime, it's smooth and quiet. Still, any two banger is going to vibrate. I think you worry too much.

            Sent from my iPad

            David L. Hastings
            5608 W. Woodside Dr.
            Crystal River, FL 34429
            Home: 352-794-6440
            Cell: 315-345-2078

            On Jun 3, 2013, at 9:54 PM, sailingmaster@... wrote:

             

            I just put a brand new Martec 16X12 on the boat. It is noisey when it opens and closes.  The old prop was also Martec, but out of balance. (I tried to save a few bucks on ebay)  Its the original 16X14 which is a little too much for the diesel.  Does anybody want a spare?  :)    The vibration is MUCH better than the other prop but there is still some...I only have a few (much newer) boats to compare that seem smoother...but I would assume there would be some on any small engine?


            JP
            On Jun 3, 2013, at 7:44 PM, jhoagg123 wrote:

             



            I think I definitely get noise and vibration from the Martec prop, as David indicated. However, I now wonder if that could be greatly alleviated by having Martec refurbish the prop, which they do at reasonable cost.! I wish I had sent it to them while I had the boat on the hard.

            --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@...> wrote:
            >
            > JP,
            >
            > My boat has a feathering prop. She runs smooth as silk. No unusual vibrations. This past winter I went sailing with Jeff Hoagg, and his boat, a shoal draft just like mine, has the original Martec gravity opening prop. I couldn't believe the difference. It was noisy and certainly had plenty of vibration. (Please excuse my comments, Jeff. I Had a wonderful sail and hope you'll have me down again this coming winter). Based on this, I'd suspect the prop. And, there's no way your two banger can compare to the smooth ride of the three cylinder Kubota. But, I'll take a Yanmar any day. Nothing runs like a Yanmar, not even a Deere.
            >
            > Sent from my iPad
            >
            > David L. Hastings
            > 5608 W. Woodside Dr. > Crystal River, FL 34429
            > Home: 352-794-6440
            > C ell: 315-345-2078
            >
            > On Jun 2, 2013, at 7:38 PM, "John" <sailingmaster@...> wrote:
            >
            > > Okay, I maybe buying trouble here.....
            > >
            > > I am curious as to how much vibration experience with the engine running.
            > >
            > > I recently sailed on an olson 30 and the engine was incredibly smooth. (Kubota 3 cylinder)
            > >
            > > I would expect some vibration with a 2 cyl engine...even my boat yard says the Yanmar 2gm shuld be "doing and Irish Jig" with everything aligned properly
            > >
            > > Last year, I had to replace a prop, after buying a bad used one (lesson learned) the vibration was much less...but there is still some...enough to that there is a little chatter from loose lateches on the lazerette etc... but not shaking the boat.
            > >
            > > I inspected my cutless bearing this year and it seemed looser then memory servers...just a tiny bit of play..! .but again, Im still learning about big boats and sometimes my curiosity gets me worried!
            > >
            > > LOL
            > >
            > > JP
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > __________________________________________________________
            > > Top 3 Stocks for 2013
            > > 3 Stocks with Outstanding Growth Potential.
            > > TheStockReport.com
            >





            ____________________________________________________________
            "New Way to Build Muscle"
            The Bizarre Approach to New Muscle Growth and Belly Fat Loss...
            HLifestyles.com






            ____________________________________________________________
            "New Way to Build Muscle"
            The Bizarre Approach to New Muscle Growth and Belly Fat Loss...
            HLifestyles.com


          • Hans Andersen
            Hi I have a GORI folding prop shipped directly from Denmark I like it it works great If I was to change prop s now and had the Money I would check into the MAX
            Message 5 of 18 , Jun 4, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi
              I have a GORI folding prop shipped directly from Denmark
              I like it it works great
              If I was to change prop's now and had the Money I would check into the MAX prop
              You can go to their Web site "Max Propellers" they have a correct Size for your J28 Just put your
              Boat J28 and they will give you the correct Size.
              I would go for a 2 Blade Max
              Hans
              J28
              ---- Original Message ----
              From: David Hastings <david.hastings@...>
              To: J28Sailors <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Mon, Jun 3, 2013 10:53 pm
              Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: More diesel questions

               
              JP, you need to get a Laser.

              Sent from my iPad

              David L. Hastings
              5608 W. Woodside Dr.
              Crystal River, FL 34429
              Home: 352-794-6440
              Cell: 315-345-2078

              On Jun 3, 2013, at 10:20 PM, sailingmaster@... wrote:

               
              You can get pretty good idea on the Gori Web site.
              My martec was about 750 and I think the comparable gori was going to be about 1200...I spent that and more after trying to save a few bucks on ebay...especailly have the short haul

              I am beginning to think David is right.....I worrry too much lol!   Sorry, I am used to boats with NO engine that sail really fast and can be stored in a garage!

              JP
              On Jun 3, 2013, at 10:14 PM, Jerry Nulton wrote:

               

              I'm curious, how much did the geared prop cost?  That's still a folding prop right?

              Sent from my iPhone

              On Jun 3, 2013, at 10:11 PM, David Hastings <david.hastings@...> w rote:

               

              JP,

              There is no comparison between a geared, feathering prop and a Martec. There is absolutely no play in the geared feathering prop. Zero. Tight. There is always play in a Martec no matter how new and balanced. Thus, there's always vibration and noise with a Martec that is not present on a Geared prop. The original Martec on my J29 fell off and I replaced it with a Gori geared folding prop and there was an immediate noticeable change. Less vibration, less noise and much more stopping power. It cost double a Martec at that time. My J28 came with a geared feathering prop. I don't know the brand but it looks it cost mega bucks, like triple or more than a Martec. BUT, it is solid, no play, stops the boat on a dime, it's smooth and quiet. Still, any two banger is going to vibrate. I think you worry too much.

              Sent from my iPad

              David L. Hastings
              5608 W. Woodside Dr.
              Crystal River, FL 34429
              Home: 352-794-6440
              Cell: 315-345-2078

              On Jun 3, 2013, at 9:54 PM, sailingmaster@... wrote:

               
              I just put a brand new Martec 16X12 on the boat. It is noisey when it opens and closes.  The old prop was also Martec, but out of balance. (I tried to save a few bucks on ebay)  Its the original 16X14 which is a little too much for the diesel.  Does anybody want a spare?  :)    The vibration is MUCH better than the other prop but there is still some...I only have a few (much newer) boats to compare that seem smoother...but I would assume there would be some on any small engine?

              JP
              On Jun 3, 2013, at 7:44 PM, jhoagg123 wrote:

               


              I think I definitely get noise and vibration from the Martec prop, as David indicated. However, I now wonder if that could be greatly alleviated by having Martec refurbish the prop, which they do at reasonable cost.! I wish I had sent it to them while I had the boat on the hard.

              --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@...> wrote:
              >
              > JP,
              >
              > My boat has a feathering prop. She runs smooth as silk. No unusual vibrations. This past winter I went sailing with Jeff Hoagg, and his boat, a shoal draft just like mine, has the original Martec gravity opening prop. I couldn't believe the difference. It was noisy and certainly had plenty of vibration. (Please excuse my comments, Jeff. I Had a wonderful sail and hope you'll have me down again this coming winter). Based on this, I'd suspect the prop. And, there's no way your two banger can compare to the smooth ride of the three cylinder Kubota. But, I'll take a Yanmar any day. Nothing runs like a Yanmar, not even a Deere.
              >
              > Sent from my iPad
              >
              > David L. Hastings
              > 5608 W. Woodside Dr. > Crystal River, FL 34429
              > Home: 352-794-6440
              > C ell: 315-345-2078
              >
              > On Jun 2, 2013, at 7:38 PM, "John" <sailingmaster@...> wrote:
              >
              > > Okay, I maybe buying trouble here.....
              > >
              > > I am curious as to how much vibration experience with the engine running.
              > >
              > > I recently sailed on an olson 30 and the engine was incredibly smooth. (Kubota 3 cylinder)
              > >
              > > I would expect some vibration with a 2 cyl engine...even my boat yard says the Yanmar 2gm shuld be "doing and Irish Jig" with everything aligned properly
              > >
              > > Last year, I had to replace a prop, after buying a bad used one (lesson learned) the vibration was much less...but there is still some...enough to that there is a little chatter from loose lateches on the lazerette etc... but not shaking the boat.
              > >
              > > I inspected my cutless bearing this year and it seemed looser then memory servers...just a tiny bit of play..! .but again, Im still learning about big boats and sometimes my curiosity gets me worried!
              > >
              > > LOL
              > >
              > > JP
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > __________________________________________________________
              > > Top 3 Stocks for 2013
              > > 3 Stocks with Outstanding Growth Potential.
              > > TheStockReport.com
              >





              ____________________________________________________________
              "New Way to Build Muscle"
              The Bizarre Approach to New Muscle Growth and Belly Fat Loss...
              HLifestyles.com




              ____________________________________________________________
              "New Way to Build Muscle"
              The Bizarre Approach to New Muscle Growth and Belly Fat Loss...
              HLifestyles.com
            • Jeff Keen
              I also have the original Martec folding prop and I get vibrations. Not too bad at 6 knots or slower but it worsens if I push it harder. I have considered both
              Message 6 of 18 , Jun 4, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                I also have the original Martec folding prop and I get vibrations. Not too bad at 6 knots or slower but it worsens if I push it harder.  I have considered both a prop refurb and a new prop.  I got some quotes for geared folding props over the winter from Gori and Varifold and they ranged from $1200 to $2000 for two-blade versions.


                On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 8:05 AM, Hans Andersen <hansandsharon@...> wrote:
                 

                Hi
                I have a GORI folding prop shipped directly from Denmark
                I like it it works great
                If I was to change prop's now and had the Money I would check into the MAX prop
                You can go to their Web site "Max Propellers" they have a correct Size for your J28 Just put your
                Boat J28 and they will give you the correct Size.
                I would go for a 2 Blade Max
                Hans
                J28
                ---- Original Message ----
                From: David Hastings <david.hastings@...>
                To: J28Sailors <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Mon, Jun 3, 2013 10:53 pm
                Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: More diesel questions

                 
                JP, you need to get a Laser.

                Sent from my iPad

                David L. Hastings
                5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                Crystal River, FL 34429
                Cell: 315-345-2078

                On Jun 3, 2013, at 10:20 PM, sailingmaster@... wrote:

                 
                You can get pretty good idea on the Gori Web site.
                My martec was about 750 and I think the comparable gori was going to be about 1200...I spent that and more after trying to save a few bucks on ebay...especailly have the short haul

                I am beginning to think David is right.....I worrry too much lol!   Sorry, I am used to boats with NO engine that sail really fast and can be stored in a garage!

                JP
                On Jun 3, 2013, at 10:14 PM, Jerry Nulton wrote:

                 

                I'm curious, how much did the geared prop cost?  That's still a folding prop right?

                Sent from my iPhone

                On Jun 3, 2013, at 10:11 PM, David Hastings <david.hastings@...> w rote:

                 

                JP,

                There is no comparison between a geared, feathering prop and a Martec. There is absolutely no play in the geared feathering prop. Zero. Tight. There is always play in a Martec no matter how new and balanced. Thus, there's always vibration and noise with a Martec that is not present on a Geared prop. The original Martec on my J29 fell off and I replaced it with a Gori geared folding prop and there was an immediate noticeable change. Less vibration, less noise and much more stopping power. It cost double a Martec at that time. My J28 came with a geared feathering prop. I don't know the brand but it looks it cost mega bucks, like triple or more than a Martec. BUT, it is solid, no play, stops the boat on a dime, it's smooth and quiet. Still, any two banger is going to vibrate. I think you worry too much.

                Sent from my iPad

                David L. Hastings
                5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                Crystal River, FL 34429
                Home: 352-794-6440
                Cell: 315-345-2078

                On Jun 3, 2013, at 9:54 PM, sailingmaster@... wrote:

                 
                I just put a brand new Martec 16X12 on the boat. It is noisey when it opens and closes.  The old prop was also Martec, but out of balance. (I tried to save a few bucks on ebay)  Its the original 16X14 which is a little too much for the diesel.  Does anybody want a spare?  :)    The vibration is MUCH better than the other prop but there is still some...I only have a few (much newer) boats to compare that seem smoother...but I would assume there would be some on any small engine?

                JP
                On Jun 3, 2013, at 7:44 PM, jhoagg123 wrote:

                 


                I think I definitely get noise and vibration from the Martec prop, as David indicated. However, I now wonder if that could be greatly alleviated by having Martec refurbish the prop, which they do at reasonable cost.! I wish I had sent it to them while I had the boat on the hard.

                --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@...> wrote:
                >
                > JP,
                >
                > My boat has a feathering prop. She runs smooth as silk. No unusual vibrations. This past winter I went sailing with Jeff Hoagg, and his boat, a shoal draft just like mine, has the original Martec gravity opening prop. I couldn't believe the difference. It was noisy and certainly had plenty of vibration. (Please excuse my comments, Jeff. I Had a wonderful sail and hope you'll have me down again this coming winter). Based on this, I'd suspect the prop. And, there's no way your two banger can compare to the smooth ride of the three cylinder Kubota. But, I'll take a Yanmar any day. Nothing runs like a Yanmar, not even a Deere.
                >
                > Sent from my iPad
                >
                > David L. Hastings
                > 5608 W. Woodside Dr. > Crystal River, FL 34429
                > Home: 352-794-6440
                > C ell: 315-345-2078
                >
                > On Jun 2, 2013, at 7:38 PM, "John" <sailingmaster@...> wrote:
                >
                > > Okay, I maybe buying trouble here.....
                > >
                > > I am curious as to how much vibration experience with the engine running.
                > >
                > > I recently sailed on an olson 30 and the engine was incredibly smooth. (Kubota 3 cylinder)
                > >
                > > I would expect some vibration with a 2 cyl engine...even my boat yard says the Yanmar 2gm shuld be "doing and Irish Jig" with everything aligned properly
                > >
                > > Last year, I had to replace a prop, after buying a bad used one (lesson learned) the vibration was much less...but there is still some...enough to that there is a little chatter from loose lateches on the lazerette etc... but not shaking the boat.
                > >
                > > I inspected my cutless bearing this year and it seemed looser then memory servers...just a tiny bit of play..! .but again, Im still learning about big boats and sometimes my curiosity gets me worried!
                > >
                > > LOL
                > >
                > > JP
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > __________________________________________________________
                > > Top 3 Stocks for 2013
                > > 3 Stocks with Outstanding Growth Potential.
                > > TheStockReport.com
                >





                ____________________________________________________________
                "New Way to Build Muscle"
                The Bizarre Approach to New Muscle Growth and Belly Fat Loss...
                HLifestyles.com




                ____________________________________________________________
                "New Way to Build Muscle"
                The Bizarre Approach to New Muscle Growth and Belly Fat Loss...
                HLifestyles.com


              • John
                I just installed a flexofold two blade folder to replace my martec. What a difference. Reverse is now a command not a suggestion. I stopped and reversed from
                Message 7 of 18 , Jun 5, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  I just installed a flexofold two blade folder to replace my martec. What a difference. Reverse is now a command not a suggestion. I stopped and reversed from 4.5 knots in two boat lenghts. Vibration is still there but not nearly as bad. The yanmar still has a harmonic right around 1800 rpm but once past it smooths out a bit.

                  John

                  --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Keen <sendtokeen@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I also have the original Martec folding prop and I get vibrations. Not too
                  > bad at 6 knots or slower but it worsens if I push it harder. I have
                  > considered both a prop refurb and a new prop. I got some quotes for geared
                  > folding props over the winter from Gori and Varifold and they ranged from
                  > $1200 to $2000 for two-blade versions.
                  >
                  >
                  > On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 8:05 AM, Hans Andersen <hansandsharon@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > **
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Hi
                  > > I have a GORI folding prop shipped directly from Denmark
                  > > I like it it works great
                  > > If I was to change prop's now and had the Money I would check into the MAX
                  > > prop
                  > > You can go to their Web site "Max Propellers" they have a correct Size for
                  > > your J28 Just put your
                  > > Boat J28 and they will give you the correct Size.
                  > > I would go for a 2 Blade Max
                  > > Hans
                  > > J28
                  > > ---- Original Message ----
                  > > From: David Hastings <david.hastings@...>
                  > > To: J28Sailors <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Sent: Mon, Jun 3, 2013 10:53 pm
                  > > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: More diesel questions
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > JP, you need to get a Laser.
                  > >
                  > > Sent from my iPad
                  > >
                  > > David L. Hastings
                  > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                  > > Crystal River, FL 34429
                  > > Home: 352-794-6440
                  > > Cell: 315-345-2078
                  > >
                  > > On Jun 3, 2013, at 10:20 PM, sailingmaster@... wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > You can get pretty good idea on the Gori Web site.
                  > > My martec was about 750 and I think the comparable gori was going to be
                  > > about 1200...I spent that and more after trying to save a few bucks on
                  > > ebay...especailly have the short haul
                  > >
                  > > I am beginning to think David is right.....I worrry too much lol!
                  > > Sorry, I am used to boats with NO engine that sail really fast and can be
                  > > stored in a garage!
                  > >
                  > > JP
                  > > On Jun 3, 2013, at 10:14 PM, Jerry Nulton wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I'm curious, how much did the geared prop cost? That's still a folding
                  > > prop right?
                  > >
                  > > Sent from my iPhone
                  > >
                  > > On Jun 3, 2013, at 10:11 PM, David Hastings <david.hastings@...> w
                  > > rote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > JP,
                  > >
                  > > There is no comparison between a geared, feathering prop and a Martec.
                  > > There is absolutely no play in the geared feathering prop. Zero. Tight.
                  > > There is always play in a Martec no matter how new and balanced. Thus,
                  > > there's always vibration and noise with a Martec that is not present on a
                  > > Geared prop. The original Martec on my J29 fell off and I replaced it with
                  > > a Gori geared folding prop and there was an immediate noticeable change.
                  > > Less vibration, less noise and much more stopping power. It cost double a
                  > > Martec at that time. My J28 came with a geared feathering prop. I don't
                  > > know the brand but it looks it cost mega bucks, like triple or more than a
                  > > Martec. BUT, it is solid, no play, stops the boat on a dime, it's smooth
                  > > and quiet. Still, any two banger is going to vibrate. I think you worry too
                  > > much.
                  > >
                  > > Sent from my iPad
                  > >
                  > > David L. Hastings
                  > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                  > > Crystal River, FL 34429
                  > > Home: 352-794-6440
                  > > Cell: 315-345-2078
                  > >
                  > > On Jun 3, 2013, at 9:54 PM, sailingmaster@... wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I just put a brand new Martec 16X12 on the boat. It is noisey when it
                  > > opens and closes. The old prop was also Martec, but out of balance. (I
                  > > tried to save a few bucks on ebay) Its the original 16X14 which is a
                  > > little too much for the diesel. Does anybody want a spare? :) The
                  > > vibration is MUCH better than the other prop but there is still some...I
                  > > only have a few (much newer) boats to compare that seem smoother...but I
                  > > would assume there would be some on any small engine?
                  > >
                  > > JP
                  > > On Jun 3, 2013, at 7:44 PM, jhoagg123 wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I think I definitely get noise and vibration from the Martec prop, as
                  > > David indicated. However, I now wonder if that could be greatly alleviated
                  > > by having Martec refurbish the prop, which they do at reasonable cost.! I
                  > > wish I had sent it to them while I had the boat on the hard.
                  > >
                  > > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > JP,
                  > > >
                  > > > My boat has a feathering prop. She runs smooth as silk. No unusual
                  > > vibrations. This past winter I went sailing with Jeff Hoagg, and his boat,
                  > > a shoal draft just like mine, has the original Martec gravity opening prop.
                  > > I couldn't believe the difference. It was noisy and certainly had plenty of
                  > > vibration. (Please excuse my comments, Jeff. I Had a wonderful sail and
                  > > hope you'll have me down again this coming winter). Based on this, I'd
                  > > suspect the prop. And, there's no way your two banger can compare to the
                  > > smooth ride of the three cylinder Kubota. But, I'll take a Yanmar any day.
                  > > Nothing runs like a Yanmar, not even a Deere.
                  > > >
                  > > > Sent from my iPad
                  > > >
                  > > > David L. Hastings
                  > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.* > Crystal River, FL 34429
                  > > > Home: 352-794-6440
                  > > > C ell: 315-345-2078
                  > > >
                  > > > On Jun 2, 2013, at 7:38 PM, "John" <sailingmaster@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > > Okay, I maybe buying trouble here.....
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I am curious as to how much vibration experience with the engine
                  > > running.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I recently sailed on an olson 30 and the engine was incredibly smooth.
                  > > (Kubota 3 cylinder)
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I would expect some vibration with a 2 cyl engine...even my boat yard
                  > > says the Yanmar 2gm shuld be "doing and Irish Jig" with everything aligned
                  > > properly
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Last year, I had to replace a prop, after buying a bad used one
                  > > (lesson learned) the vibration was much less...but there is still
                  > > some...enough to that there is a little chatter from loose lateches on the
                  > > lazerette etc... but not shaking the boat.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I inspected my cutless bearing this year and it seemed looser then
                  > > memory servers...just a tiny bit of play..! .but again, Im still learning
                  > > about big boats and sometimes my curiosity gets me worried!
                  > > > >
                  > > > > LOL
                  > > > >
                  > > > > JP
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > __________________________________________________________
                  > > > > Top 3 Stocks for 2013
                  > > > > 3 Stocks with Outstanding Growth Potential.
                  > > > > TheStockReport.com
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > *
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ____________________________________________________________
                  > > *"New Way to Build Muscle"*
                  > > The Bizarre Approach to New Muscle Growth and Belly Fat Loss...
                  > > <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3166/51ad4905d4a0d49050832mp06duc>
                  > > HLifestyles.com<http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3166/51ad4905d4a0d49050832mp06duc>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ____________________________________________________________
                  > > *"New Way to Build Muscle"*
                  > > The Bizarre Approach to New Muscle Growth and Belly Fat Loss...
                  > > <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3166/51ad50a06c2d150a0100emp06duc>
                  > > HLifestyles.com<http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3166/51ad50a06c2d150a0100emp06duc>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                • thistle4002
                  interesting comment on the reverse.....my new martec (which replaced some wierd fixed three blade) can stop the boat from full speed forward to dead stop in
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jun 5, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    interesting comment on the reverse.....my new martec (which replaced some wierd fixed three blade) can stop the boat from full speed forward to dead stop in one boat length.
                    maybe they props are better than the ones J boats originally used...

                    my martec, is does everything they claim...with my fixed blade i had no prop walk, but now i do have some, which is actually nice in my marina because if I use the prop walk, I can spin the boat in very tight places and pivot within a boat length..

                    the vibration was my main concern but it now seems that I have a normal amount and should not be too concerned.

                    thanks to all for the advice and info.  I will get a max prop or gori next time I need a propeller though.
                    I really appreciate this group, its a great sources of information

                    Thanks
                    again

                    JP
                    On Jun 5, 2013, at 9:58 PM, John wrote:

                     

                    I just installed a flexofold two blade folder to replace my martec. What a difference. Reverse is now a command not a suggestion. I stopped and reversed from 4.5 knots in two boat lenghts. Vibration is still there but not nearly as bad. The yanmar still has a harmonic right around 1800 rpm but once past it smooths out a bit.

                    John

                    --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Keen <sendtokeen@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I also have the original Martec folding prop and I get vibrations. Not too
                    > bad at 6 knots or slower but it worsens if I push it harder. I have
                    > considered both a prop refurb and a new prop. I got some quotes for geared
                    > folding props over the winter from Gori and Varifold and they ranged from
                    > $1200 to $2000 for two-blade versions.
                    >
                    >
                    > On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 8:05 AM, Hans Andersen <hansandsharon@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > **
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Hi
                    > > I have a GORI folding prop shipped directly from Denmark
                    > > I like it it works great
                    > > If I was to change prop's now and had the Money I would check into the MAX
                    > > prop
                    > > You can go to their Web site "Max Propellers" they have a correct Size for
                    > > your J28 Just put your
                    > > Boat J28 and they will give you the correct Size.
                    > > I would go for a 2 Blade Max
                    > > Hans
                    > > J28
                    > > ---- Original Message ----
                    > > From: David Hastings <david.hastings@...>
                    > > To: J28Sailors <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Sent: Mon, Jun 3, 2013 10:53 pm
                    > > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: More diesel questions
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > JP, you need to get a Laser.
                    > >
                    > > Sent from my iPad
                    > >
                    > > David L. Hastings
                    > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                    > > Crystal River, FL 34429
                    > > Home: 352-794-6440
                    > > Cell: 315-345-2078
                    > >
                    > > On Jun 3, 2013, at 10:20 PM, sailingmaster@... wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > You can get pretty good idea on the Gori Web site.
                    > > My martec was about 750 and I think the comparable gori was going to be
                    > > about 1200...I spent that and more after trying to save a few bucks on
                    > > ebay...especailly have the short haul
                    > >
                    > > I am beginning to think David is right.....I worrry too much lol!
                    > > Sorry, I am used to boats with NO engine that sail really fast and can be
                    > > stored in a garage!
                    > >
                    > > JP
                    > > On Jun 3, 2013, at 10:14 PM, Jerry Nulton wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > I'm curious, how much did the geared prop cost? That's still a folding
                    > > prop right?
                    > >
                    > > Sent from my iPhone
                    > >
                    > > On Jun 3, 2013, at 10:11 PM, David Hastings <david.hastings@...> w
                    > > rote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > JP,
                    > >
                    > > There is no comparison between a geared, feathering prop and a Martec.
                    > > There is absolutely no play in the geared feathering prop. Zero. Tight.
                    > > There is always play in a Martec no matter how new and balanced. Thus,
                    > > there's always vibration and noise with a Martec that is not present on a
                    > > Geared prop. The original Martec on my J29 fell off and I replaced it with
                    > > a Gori geared folding prop and there was an immediate noticeable change.
                    > > Less vibration, less noise and much more stopping power. It cost double a
                    > > Martec at that time. My J28 came with a geared feathering prop. I don't
                    > > know the brand but it looks it cost mega bucks, like triple or more than a
                    > > Martec. BUT, it is solid, no play, stops the boat on a dime, it's smooth
                    > > and quiet. Still, any two banger is going to vibrate. I think you worry too
                    > > much.
                    > >
                    > > Sent from my iPad
                    > >
                    > > David L. Hastings
                    > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                    > > Crystal River, FL 34429
                    > > Home: 352-794-6440
                    > > Cell: 315-345-2078
                    > >
                    > > On Jun 3, 2013, at 9:54 PM, sailingmaster@... wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > I just put a brand new Martec 16X12 on the boat. It is noisey when it
                    > > opens and closes. The old prop was also Martec, but out of balance. (I
                    > > tried to save a few bucks on ebay) Its the original 16X14 which is a
                    > > little too much for the diesel. Does anybody want a spare? :) The
                    > > vibration is MUCH better than the other prop but there is still some...I
                    > > only have a few (much newer) boats to compare that seem smoother...but I
                    > > would assume there would be some on any small engine?
                    > >
                    > > JP
                    > > On Jun 3, 2013, at 7:44 PM, jhoagg123 wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > I think I definitely get noise and vibration from the Martec prop, as
                    > > David indicated. However, I now wonder if that could be greatly alleviated
                    > > by having Martec refurbish the prop, which they do at reasonable cost.! I
                    > > wish I had sent it to them while I had the boat on the hard.
                    > >
                    > > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > JP,
                    > > >
                    > > > My boat has a feathering prop. She runs smooth as silk. No unusual
                    > > vibrations. This past winter I went sailing with Jeff Hoagg, and his boat,
                    > > a shoal draft just like mine, has the original Martec gravity opening prop.
                    > > I couldn't believe the difference. It was noisy and certainly had plenty of
                    > > vibration. (Please excuse my comments, Jeff. I Had a wonderful sail and
                    > > hope you'll have me down again this coming winter). Based on this, I'd
                    > > suspect the prop. And, there's no way your two banger can compare to the
                    > > smooth ride of the three cylinder Kubota. But, I'll take a Yanmar any day.
                    > > Nothing runs like a Yanmar, not even a Deere.
                    > > >
                    > > > Sent from my iPad
                    > > >
                    > > > David L. Hastings
                    > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.* > Crystal River, FL 34429
                    > > > Home: 352-794-6440
                    > > > C ell: 315-345-2078
                    > > >
                    > > > On Jun 2, 2013, at 7:38 PM, "John" <sailingmaster@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > > Okay, I maybe buying trouble here.....
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I am curious as to how much vibration experience with the engine
                    > > running.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I recently sailed on an olson 30 and the engine was incredibly smooth.
                    > > (Kubota 3 cylinder)
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I would expect some vibration with a 2 cyl engine...even my boat yard
                    > > says the Yanmar 2gm shuld be "doing and Irish Jig" with everything aligned
                    > > properly
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Last year, I had to replace a prop, after buying a bad used one
                    > > (lesson learned) the vibration was much less...but there is still
                    > > some...enough to that there is a little chatter from loose lateches on the
                    > > lazerette etc... but not shaking the boat.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I inspected my cutless bearing this year and it seemed looser then
                    > > memory servers...just a tiny bit of play..! .but again, Im still learning
                    > > about big boats and sometimes my curiosity gets me worried!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > LOL
                    > > > >
                    > > > > JP
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > __________________________________________________________
                    > > > > Top 3 Stocks for 2013
                    > > > > 3 Stocks with Outstanding Growth Potential.
                    > > > > TheStockReport.com
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > *
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > __________________________________________________________
                    > > *"New Way to Build Muscle"*
                    > > The Bizarre Approach to New Muscle Growth and Belly Fat Loss...
                    > > <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3166/51ad4905d4a0d49050832mp06duc>
                    > > HLifestyles.com<http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3166/51ad4905d4a0d49050832mp06duc>
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > __________________________________________________________
                    > > *"New Way to Build Muscle"*
                    > > The Bizarre Approach to New Muscle Growth and Belly Fat Loss...
                    > > <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3166/51ad50a06c2d150a0100emp06duc>
                    > > HLifestyles.com<http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3166/51ad50a06c2d150a0100emp06duc>
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >


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