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Re: Forestay Problem?

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  • j28sailor50
    Not aware of a turn buckle on the forstay, but the revious owner installed roller furling. I always have set some initial tension in the backstay, even with
    Message 1 of 11 , Jun 21, 2009
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      Not aware of a turn buckle on the forstay, but the revious owner installed roller furling. I always have set some initial tension in the backstay, even with backstay adjuster all the way off. I am not sure if this is correct or how much initial tension should be on the backstay.

      Bruce

      --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Jason Smith <jason3317@...> wrote:
      >
      > I think my forestay may be too loose. We were out today in 8-12 knts;
      > sailing close-hauled, I could see the roller-fuler foil
      > oscillating/moving back and forth, shaking the rig. This happened
      > when I was pinching up a bit to clear a shoal. It did not occur last
      > year and there have been no changes to the rig / tension that I know
      > about. The backstay was fully off, but I don't think this should have
      > an effect with our fractional rigs.
      >
      > At the dock, I think I can see a bit of sag up the forestay (hard to
      > tell with the sail furled). I can swing the furler sailed in approx 6
      > in circle. Also, I am not sure if I can point as well as last year
      > (30-35 deg apparent)
      >
      > So....is the forestay too lose? I know the majority of the forestay
      > tension is generated by the upper / cap shrouds, but do you guys know
      > if there is a turnbuckle under the furler? I am a little worried
      > about it being too loose....to the point where it is dangerous.
      >
      > Insight appreciated. I am a real novice with rig tuning. I plan to
      > read up on it more tonight. We're expecting 15-20, gusts to 30knts
      > tomm, so I will have an opportunity to test all the heavy air tech
      > tips we discussed earlier this week.
      >
      > Thanks!
      >
      > Jason
      >
    • Lenny Reich
      The backstay definitely helps tension the forestay. Think about how tensioning the backstay bends the mast -- additional force aft at the top of the mast is
      Message 2 of 11 , Jun 21, 2009
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        The backstay definitely helps tension the forestay. Think about how tensioning the backstay bends the mast -- additional force aft at the top of the mast is opposed by (additional) forward force at the partners by the forestay, putting a torque on the mast and bending it. That additional forward force is in the form of higher tension on the forestay. Anyway, that's how it seems to the engineer in me. Lenny

        --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, "j28sailor50" <misailor@...> wrote:
        >
        > Not aware of a turn buckle on the forstay, but the revious owner installed roller furling. I always have set some initial tension in the backstay, even with backstay adjuster all the way off. I am not sure if this is correct or how much initial tension should be on the backstay.
        >
        > Bruce
        >
        > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Jason Smith <jason3317@> wrote:
        > >
        > > I think my forestay may be too loose. We were out today in 8-12 knts;
        > > sailing close-hauled, I could see the roller-fuler foil
        > > oscillating/moving back and forth, shaking the rig. This happened
        > > when I was pinching up a bit to clear a shoal. It did not occur last
        > > year and there have been no changes to the rig / tension that I know
        > > about. The backstay was fully off, but I don't think this should have
        > > an effect with our fractional rigs.
        > >
        > > At the dock, I think I can see a bit of sag up the forestay (hard to
        > > tell with the sail furled). I can swing the furler sailed in approx 6
        > > in circle. Also, I am not sure if I can point as well as last year
        > > (30-35 deg apparent)
        > >
        > > So....is the forestay too lose? I know the majority of the forestay
        > > tension is generated by the upper / cap shrouds, but do you guys know
        > > if there is a turnbuckle under the furler? I am a little worried
        > > about it being too loose....to the point where it is dangerous.
        > >
        > > Insight appreciated. I am a real novice with rig tuning. I plan to
        > > read up on it more tonight. We're expecting 15-20, gusts to 30knts
        > > tomm, so I will have an opportunity to test all the heavy air tech
        > > tips we discussed earlier this week.
        > >
        > > Thanks!
        > >
        > > Jason
        > >
        >
      • thconway1
        My forestay has been too loose for a while. I finally shortened it this year. I would have preferred to leave it longer and shorten the backstay, but I was
        Message 3 of 11 , Jun 22, 2009
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          My forestay has been too loose for a while. I finally shortened it this year. I would have preferred to leave it longer and shorten the backstay, but I was not ready for that project.

          To tighten your headstay, you should be able to get a little from putting the backstay on hard and tightening the shrouds.

          There is a good guide out there, but I do not know the link. I brought the mast forward using a halyard. Then I had to take apart the furler and tighten it up. It was confusing since threads are going in different directions. The whole thing took two hours and I had a helper.

          You will also need one or two vice grips to keep the RF foil above where you are working.

          --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, "Lenny Reich" <lsreich@...> wrote:
          >
          > The backstay definitely helps tension the forestay. Think about how tensioning the backstay bends the mast -- additional force aft at the top of the mast is opposed by (additional) forward force at the partners by the forestay, putting a torque on the mast and bending it. That additional forward force is in the form of higher tension on the forestay. Anyway, that's how it seems to the engineer in me. Lenny
          >
          > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, "j28sailor50" <misailor@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Not aware of a turn buckle on the forstay, but the revious owner installed roller furling. I always have set some initial tension in the backstay, even with backstay adjuster all the way off. I am not sure if this is correct or how much initial tension should be on the backstay.
          > >
          > > Bruce
          > >
          > > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Jason Smith <jason3317@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > I think my forestay may be too loose. We were out today in 8-12 knts;
          > > > sailing close-hauled, I could see the roller-fuler foil
          > > > oscillating/moving back and forth, shaking the rig. This happened
          > > > when I was pinching up a bit to clear a shoal. It did not occur last
          > > > year and there have been no changes to the rig / tension that I know
          > > > about. The backstay was fully off, but I don't think this should have
          > > > an effect with our fractional rigs.
          > > >
          > > > At the dock, I think I can see a bit of sag up the forestay (hard to
          > > > tell with the sail furled). I can swing the furler sailed in approx 6
          > > > in circle. Also, I am not sure if I can point as well as last year
          > > > (30-35 deg apparent)
          > > >
          > > > So....is the forestay too lose? I know the majority of the forestay
          > > > tension is generated by the upper / cap shrouds, but do you guys know
          > > > if there is a turnbuckle under the furler? I am a little worried
          > > > about it being too loose....to the point where it is dangerous.
          > > >
          > > > Insight appreciated. I am a real novice with rig tuning. I plan to
          > > > read up on it more tonight. We're expecting 15-20, gusts to 30knts
          > > > tomm, so I will have an opportunity to test all the heavy air tech
          > > > tips we discussed earlier this week.
          > > >
          > > > Thanks!
          > > >
          > > > Jason
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • jason3317@gmail.com
          Thanks for the feedback. A few questions: Can you describe how loose your forestay is/was? When you say, shortened , did you physically cut and reswage, or
          Message 4 of 11 , Jun 22, 2009
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            Thanks for the feedback. A few questions:

            Can you describe how loose your forestay is/was?

            When you say, "shortened", did you physically cut and reswage, or just tighten up the forestay attachment?

            How hard do you have the upper shrouds set on your boat?

            You said your preference would have been to shorten the backstay...can you explain that concept a bit further? I was under the impression the backstay on a 3/4 frac really influenced only the top mast, the forestay would receive very little addtl tension from pulling the backstay on hard. Is this assumption wrong (and I definitely could be here)?

            Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry


            From: "thconway1"
            Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 16:59:33 -0000
            To: <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Forestay Problem?

            My forestay has been too loose for a while. I finally shortened it this year. I would have preferred to leave it longer and shorten the backstay, but I was not ready for that project.

            To tighten your headstay, you should be able to get a little from putting the backstay on hard and tightening the shrouds.

            There is a good guide out there, but I do not know the link. I brought the mast forward using a halyard. Then I had to take apart the furler and tighten it up. It was confusing since threads are going in different directions. The whole thing took two hours and I had a helper.

            You will also need one or two vice grips to keep the RF foil above where you are working.

            --- In J28Sailors@yahoogro ups.com, "Lenny Reich" <lsreich@... > wrote:
            >
            > The backstay definitely helps tension the forestay. Think about how tensioning the backstay bends the mast -- additional force aft at the top of the mast is opposed by (additional) forward force at the partners by the forestay, putting a torque on the mast and bending it. That additional forward force is in the form of higher tension on the forestay. Anyway, that's how it seems to the engineer in me. Lenny
            >
            > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogro ups.com, "j28sailor50" <misailor@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Not aware of a turn buckle on the forstay, but the revious owner installed roller furling. I always have set some initial tension in the backstay, even with backstay adjuster all the way off. I am not sure if this is correct or how much initial tension should be on the backstay.
            > >
            > > Bruce
            > >
            > > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogro ups.com, Jason Smith <jason3317@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > I think my forestay may be too loose. We were out today in 8-12 knts;
            > > > sailing close-hauled, I could see the roller-fuler foil
            > > > oscillating/ moving back and forth, shaking the rig. This happened
            > > > when I was pinching up a bit to clear a shoal. It did not occur last
            > > > year and there have been no changes to the rig / tension that I know
            > > > about. The backstay was fully off, but I don't think this should have
            > > > an effect with our fractional rigs.
            > > >
            > > > At the dock, I think I can see a bit of sag up the forestay (hard to
            > > > tell with the sail furled). I can swing the furler sailed in approx 6
            > > > in circle. Also, I am not sure if I can point as well as last year
            > > > (30-35 deg apparent)
            > > >
            > > > So....is the forestay too lose? I know the majority of the forestay
            > > > tension is generated by the upper / cap shrouds, but do you guys know
            > > > if there is a turnbuckle under the furler? I am a little worried
            > > > about it being too loose....to the point where it is dangerous.
            > > >
            > > > Insight appreciated. I am a real novice with rig tuning. I plan to
            > > > read up on it more tonight. We're expecting 15-20, gusts to 30knts
            > > > tomm, so I will have an opportunity to test all the heavy air tech
            > > > tips we discussed earlier this week.
            > > >
            > > > Thanks!
            > > >
            > > > Jason
            > > >
            > >
            >

          • thconway1
            My forestay used to have 10+ inches of sag. It would be swinging when the backstay was completely off. Now it has about 6 inches of sag in a good breeze.
            Message 5 of 11 , Jun 23, 2009
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              My forestay used to have 10+ inches of sag. It would be swinging when the backstay was completely off. Now it has about 6 inches of sag in a good breeze. This is just eyeing it out, but it has half the sag it used to.

              I did not cut the headstay, I just tightened the adjustment part. The yard made it connect, but never tightened it.

              The uppers are probably not hard enough. I don't have a gauge. There is little give when I press against them.

              As far as shortening the backstay, I would do this since I want the whole mast to come back further. I think a raked back mast has better speed potential. The backstay is very useful for tightening the headstay. While it is not one to one, tension on the backstay definitely helps tighten the headstay. You should always have backstay tension upwind in anything over 8. Swept back shrouds keep the tension on, but the backstay will help.

              I would still want the backstay shorter since if the mast were to tilt back further, I would have no way to flatten the main.

              I am used to runners on a frac rig, so it is taking some adjustment to figure out the proper shroud tension and how much the bachstay helps.

              --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, jason3317@... wrote:
              >
              > Thanks for the feedback. A few questions:
              >
              > Can you describe how loose your forestay is/was?
              >
              > When you say, "shortened", did you physically cut and reswage, or just tighten up the forestay attachment?
              >
              > How hard do you have the upper shrouds set on your boat?
              >
              > You said your preference would have been to shorten the backstay...can you explain that concept a bit further? I was under the impression the backstay on a 3/4 frac really influenced only the top mast, the forestay would receive very little addtl tension from pulling the backstay on hard. Is this assumption wrong (and I definitely could be here)?
              >
              > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: "thconway1" <actionman@...>
              >
              > Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 16:59:33
              > To: <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
              > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Forestay Problem?
              >
              >
              > My forestay has been too loose for a while. I finally shortened it this year. I would have preferred to leave it longer and shorten the backstay, but I was not ready for that project.
              >
              > To tighten your headstay, you should be able to get a little from putting the backstay on hard and tightening the shrouds.
              >
              > There is a good guide out there, but I do not know the link. I brought the mast forward using a halyard. Then I had to take apart the furler and tighten it up. It was confusing since threads are going in different directions. The whole thing took two hours and I had a helper.
              >
              > You will also need one or two vice grips to keep the RF foil above where you are working.
              >
              > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, "Lenny Reich" <lsreich@> wrote:
              > >
              > > The backstay definitely helps tension the forestay. Think about how tensioning the backstay bends the mast -- additional force aft at the top of the mast is opposed by (additional) forward force at the partners by the forestay, putting a torque on the mast and bending it. That additional forward force is in the form of higher tension on the forestay. Anyway, that's how it seems to the engineer in me. Lenny
              > >
              > > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, "j28sailor50" <misailor@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Not aware of a turn buckle on the forstay, but the revious owner installed roller furling. I always have set some initial tension in the backstay, even with backstay adjuster all the way off. I am not sure if this is correct or how much initial tension should be on the backstay.
              > > >
              > > > Bruce
              > > >
              > > > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Jason Smith <jason3317@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > I think my forestay may be too loose. We were out today in 8-12 knts;
              > > > > sailing close-hauled, I could see the roller-fuler foil
              > > > > oscillating/moving back and forth, shaking the rig. This happened
              > > > > when I was pinching up a bit to clear a shoal. It did not occur last
              > > > > year and there have been no changes to the rig / tension that I know
              > > > > about. The backstay was fully off, but I don't think this should have
              > > > > an effect with our fractional rigs.
              > > > >
              > > > > At the dock, I think I can see a bit of sag up the forestay (hard to
              > > > > tell with the sail furled). I can swing the furler sailed in approx 6
              > > > > in circle. Also, I am not sure if I can point as well as last year
              > > > > (30-35 deg apparent)
              > > > >
              > > > > So....is the forestay too lose? I know the majority of the forestay
              > > > > tension is generated by the upper / cap shrouds, but do you guys know
              > > > > if there is a turnbuckle under the furler? I am a little worried
              > > > > about it being too loose....to the point where it is dangerous.
              > > > >
              > > > > Insight appreciated. I am a real novice with rig tuning. I plan to
              > > > > read up on it more tonight. We're expecting 15-20, gusts to 30knts
              > > > > tomm, so I will have an opportunity to test all the heavy air tech
              > > > > tips we discussed earlier this week.
              > > > >
              > > > > Thanks!
              > > > >
              > > > > Jason
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • j28sailor50
              Tom, Take a look at Jason s pictures of his backstay in the photo section. His back stay adjuster is way down in the photo and there is lots of room to
              Message 6 of 11 , Jun 25, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Tom,

                Take a look at Jason's pictures of his backstay in the photo section. His back stay adjuster is way down in the photo and there is lots of room to tighten the turn buckles.

                This backstay set up looks quite loose compared to mine. My adjuster goes almost back to the top of the triangle when the tension is off.

                Bruce

                --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, "thconway1" <actionman@...> wrote:
                >
                > My forestay used to have 10+ inches of sag. It would be swinging when the backstay was completely off. Now it has about 6 inches of sag in a good breeze. This is just eyeing it out, but it has half the sag it used to.
                >
                > I did not cut the headstay, I just tightened the adjustment part. The yard made it connect, but never tightened it.
                >
                > The uppers are probably not hard enough. I don't have a gauge. There is little give when I press against them.
                >
                > As far as shortening the backstay, I would do this since I want the whole mast to come back further. I think a raked back mast has better speed potential. The backstay is very useful for tightening the headstay. While it is not one to one, tension on the backstay definitely helps tighten the headstay. You should always have backstay tension upwind in anything over 8. Swept back shrouds keep the tension on, but the backstay will help.
                >
                > I would still want the backstay shorter since if the mast were to tilt back further, I would have no way to flatten the main.
                >
                > I am used to runners on a frac rig, so it is taking some adjustment to figure out the proper shroud tension and how much the bachstay helps.
                >
                > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, jason3317@ wrote:
                > >
                > > Thanks for the feedback. A few questions:
                > >
                > > Can you describe how loose your forestay is/was?
                > >
                > > When you say, "shortened", did you physically cut and reswage, or just tighten up the forestay attachment?
                > >
                > > How hard do you have the upper shrouds set on your boat?
                > >
                > > You said your preference would have been to shorten the backstay...can you explain that concept a bit further? I was under the impression the backstay on a 3/4 frac really influenced only the top mast, the forestay would receive very little addtl tension from pulling the backstay on hard. Is this assumption wrong (and I definitely could be here)?
                > >
                > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
                > >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: "thconway1" <actionman@>
                > >
                > > Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 16:59:33
                > > To: <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
                > > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Forestay Problem?
                > >
                > >
                > > My forestay has been too loose for a while. I finally shortened it this year. I would have preferred to leave it longer and shorten the backstay, but I was not ready for that project.
                > >
                > > To tighten your headstay, you should be able to get a little from putting the backstay on hard and tightening the shrouds.
                > >
                > > There is a good guide out there, but I do not know the link. I brought the mast forward using a halyard. Then I had to take apart the furler and tighten it up. It was confusing since threads are going in different directions. The whole thing took two hours and I had a helper.
                > >
                > > You will also need one or two vice grips to keep the RF foil above where you are working.
                > >
                > > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, "Lenny Reich" <lsreich@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > The backstay definitely helps tension the forestay. Think about how tensioning the backstay bends the mast -- additional force aft at the top of the mast is opposed by (additional) forward force at the partners by the forestay, putting a torque on the mast and bending it. That additional forward force is in the form of higher tension on the forestay. Anyway, that's how it seems to the engineer in me. Lenny
                > > >
                > > > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, "j28sailor50" <misailor@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Not aware of a turn buckle on the forstay, but the revious owner installed roller furling. I always have set some initial tension in the backstay, even with backstay adjuster all the way off. I am not sure if this is correct or how much initial tension should be on the backstay.
                > > > >
                > > > > Bruce
                > > > >
                > > > > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Jason Smith <jason3317@> wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > I think my forestay may be too loose. We were out today in 8-12 knts;
                > > > > > sailing close-hauled, I could see the roller-fuler foil
                > > > > > oscillating/moving back and forth, shaking the rig. This happened
                > > > > > when I was pinching up a bit to clear a shoal. It did not occur last
                > > > > > year and there have been no changes to the rig / tension that I know
                > > > > > about. The backstay was fully off, but I don't think this should have
                > > > > > an effect with our fractional rigs.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > At the dock, I think I can see a bit of sag up the forestay (hard to
                > > > > > tell with the sail furled). I can swing the furler sailed in approx 6
                > > > > > in circle. Also, I am not sure if I can point as well as last year
                > > > > > (30-35 deg apparent)
                > > > > >
                > > > > > So....is the forestay too lose? I know the majority of the forestay
                > > > > > tension is generated by the upper / cap shrouds, but do you guys know
                > > > > > if there is a turnbuckle under the furler? I am a little worried
                > > > > > about it being too loose....to the point where it is dangerous.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Insight appreciated. I am a real novice with rig tuning. I plan to
                > > > > > read up on it more tonight. We're expecting 15-20, gusts to 30knts
                > > > > > tomm, so I will have an opportunity to test all the heavy air tech
                > > > > > tips we discussed earlier this week.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Thanks!
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Jason
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • thconway1
                Bruce: My backstay is on a 4 to 1 setup in the middle of the stern. I guess the previous owner did not like the triangle. So I can not compare by pictures. I
                Message 7 of 11 , Jun 26, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Bruce:

                  My backstay is on a 4 to 1 setup in the middle of the stern. I guess the previous owner did not like the triangle. So I can not compare by pictures.

                  I know that I can take the backstay down at least two feet from slack. I miss the control that runners give the mast, but not the hassle.

                  As far as the triangle, I think it is best to have it at the top when it is off. If it is not there, you need to adjust the backstay or shorten the headstay. I don't know if that setup will have enough to properly tighten the backstay in a breeze.

                  Tom


                  --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, "j28sailor50" <misailor@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Tom,
                  >
                  > Take a look at Jason's pictures of his backstay in the photo section. His back stay adjuster is way down in the photo and there is lots of room to tighten the turn buckles.
                  >
                  > This backstay set up looks quite loose compared to mine. My adjuster goes almost back to the top of the triangle when the tension is off.
                  >
                  > Bruce
                  >
                  > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, "thconway1" <actionman@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > My forestay used to have 10+ inches of sag. It would be swinging when the backstay was completely off. Now it has about 6 inches of sag in a good breeze. This is just eyeing it out, but it has half the sag it used to.
                  > >
                  > > I did not cut the headstay, I just tightened the adjustment part. The yard made it connect, but never tightened it.
                  > >
                  > > The uppers are probably not hard enough. I don't have a gauge. There is little give when I press against them.
                  > >
                  > > As far as shortening the backstay, I would do this since I want the whole mast to come back further. I think a raked back mast has better speed potential. The backstay is very useful for tightening the headstay. While it is not one to one, tension on the backstay definitely helps tighten the headstay. You should always have backstay tension upwind in anything over 8. Swept back shrouds keep the tension on, but the backstay will help.
                  > >
                  > > I would still want the backstay shorter since if the mast were to tilt back further, I would have no way to flatten the main.
                  > >
                  > > I am used to runners on a frac rig, so it is taking some adjustment to figure out the proper shroud tension and how much the bachstay helps.
                  > >
                  > > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, jason3317@ wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks for the feedback. A few questions:
                  > > >
                  > > > Can you describe how loose your forestay is/was?
                  > > >
                  > > > When you say, "shortened", did you physically cut and reswage, or just tighten up the forestay attachment?
                  > > >
                  > > > How hard do you have the upper shrouds set on your boat?
                  > > >
                  > > > You said your preference would have been to shorten the backstay...can you explain that concept a bit further? I was under the impression the backstay on a 3/4 frac really influenced only the top mast, the forestay would receive very little addtl tension from pulling the backstay on hard. Is this assumption wrong (and I definitely could be here)?
                  > > >
                  > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
                  > > >
                  > > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > > From: "thconway1" <actionman@>
                  > > >
                  > > > Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 16:59:33
                  > > > To: <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Forestay Problem?
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > My forestay has been too loose for a while. I finally shortened it this year. I would have preferred to leave it longer and shorten the backstay, but I was not ready for that project.
                  > > >
                  > > > To tighten your headstay, you should be able to get a little from putting the backstay on hard and tightening the shrouds.
                  > > >
                  > > > There is a good guide out there, but I do not know the link. I brought the mast forward using a halyard. Then I had to take apart the furler and tighten it up. It was confusing since threads are going in different directions. The whole thing took two hours and I had a helper.
                  > > >
                  > > > You will also need one or two vice grips to keep the RF foil above where you are working.
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, "Lenny Reich" <lsreich@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > The backstay definitely helps tension the forestay. Think about how tensioning the backstay bends the mast -- additional force aft at the top of the mast is opposed by (additional) forward force at the partners by the forestay, putting a torque on the mast and bending it. That additional forward force is in the form of higher tension on the forestay. Anyway, that's how it seems to the engineer in me. Lenny
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, "j28sailor50" <misailor@> wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Not aware of a turn buckle on the forstay, but the revious owner installed roller furling. I always have set some initial tension in the backstay, even with backstay adjuster all the way off. I am not sure if this is correct or how much initial tension should be on the backstay.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Bruce
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Jason Smith <jason3317@> wrote:
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > I think my forestay may be too loose. We were out today in 8-12 knts;
                  > > > > > > sailing close-hauled, I could see the roller-fuler foil
                  > > > > > > oscillating/moving back and forth, shaking the rig. This happened
                  > > > > > > when I was pinching up a bit to clear a shoal. It did not occur last
                  > > > > > > year and there have been no changes to the rig / tension that I know
                  > > > > > > about. The backstay was fully off, but I don't think this should have
                  > > > > > > an effect with our fractional rigs.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > At the dock, I think I can see a bit of sag up the forestay (hard to
                  > > > > > > tell with the sail furled). I can swing the furler sailed in approx 6
                  > > > > > > in circle. Also, I am not sure if I can point as well as last year
                  > > > > > > (30-35 deg apparent)
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > So....is the forestay too lose? I know the majority of the forestay
                  > > > > > > tension is generated by the upper / cap shrouds, but do you guys know
                  > > > > > > if there is a turnbuckle under the furler? I am a little worried
                  > > > > > > about it being too loose....to the point where it is dangerous.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Insight appreciated. I am a real novice with rig tuning. I plan to
                  > > > > > > read up on it more tonight. We're expecting 15-20, gusts to 30knts
                  > > > > > > tomm, so I will have an opportunity to test all the heavy air tech
                  > > > > > > tips we discussed earlier this week.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Thanks!
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Jason
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • jfws88
                  There is a turnbuckle built into the furler. It s a bit of a PITA to adjust but worth the effort. Tensioning the backstay does not tension the forestay as much
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jun 26, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    There is a turnbuckle built into the furler. It's a bit of a PITA to adjust but worth the effort. Tensioning the backstay does not tension the forestay as much as you think (if any) on a fractional boat. The caps do tension the forestay.

                    To adjust the forestay turnbuckle loosen the nut and locking washer at the bottom of the furler above the clevis.
                    Take the foil clamp off the furler. You should be able to get a visecrimp on the forstay inner cable.
                    turn the furler at the bottom to tighten.

                    It's best to do this with the sail off. And, There may be somrthing esle to disassemble on the furler but I can't remember I toke main completely apart a few years ago.

                    --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, "thconway1" <actionman@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > My forestay has been too loose for a while. I finally shortened it this year. I would have preferred to leave it longer and shorten the backstay, but I was not ready for that project.
                    >
                    > To tighten your headstay, you should be able to get a little from putting the backstay on hard and tightening the shrouds.
                    >
                    > There is a good guide out there, but I do not know the link. I brought the mast forward using a halyard. Then I had to take apart the furler and tighten it up. It was confusing since threads are going in different directions. The whole thing took two hours and I had a helper.
                    >
                    > You will also need one or two vice grips to keep the RF foil above where you are working.
                    >
                    > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, "Lenny Reich" <lsreich@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > The backstay definitely helps tension the forestay. Think about how tensioning the backstay bends the mast -- additional force aft at the top of the mast is opposed by (additional) forward force at the partners by the forestay, putting a torque on the mast and bending it. That additional forward force is in the form of higher tension on the forestay. Anyway, that's how it seems to the engineer in me. Lenny
                    > >
                    > > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, "j28sailor50" <misailor@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Not aware of a turn buckle on the forstay, but the revious owner installed roller furling. I always have set some initial tension in the backstay, even with backstay adjuster all the way off. I am not sure if this is correct or how much initial tension should be on the backstay.
                    > > >
                    > > > Bruce
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Jason Smith <jason3317@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I think my forestay may be too loose. We were out today in 8-12 knts;
                    > > > > sailing close-hauled, I could see the roller-fuler foil
                    > > > > oscillating/moving back and forth, shaking the rig. This happened
                    > > > > when I was pinching up a bit to clear a shoal. It did not occur last
                    > > > > year and there have been no changes to the rig / tension that I know
                    > > > > about. The backstay was fully off, but I don't think this should have
                    > > > > an effect with our fractional rigs.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > At the dock, I think I can see a bit of sag up the forestay (hard to
                    > > > > tell with the sail furled). I can swing the furler sailed in approx 6
                    > > > > in circle. Also, I am not sure if I can point as well as last year
                    > > > > (30-35 deg apparent)
                    > > > >
                    > > > > So....is the forestay too lose? I know the majority of the forestay
                    > > > > tension is generated by the upper / cap shrouds, but do you guys know
                    > > > > if there is a turnbuckle under the furler? I am a little worried
                    > > > > about it being too loose....to the point where it is dangerous.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Insight appreciated. I am a real novice with rig tuning. I plan to
                    > > > > read up on it more tonight. We're expecting 15-20, gusts to 30knts
                    > > > > tomm, so I will have an opportunity to test all the heavy air tech
                    > > > > tips we discussed earlier this week.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Thanks!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Jason
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Jason Smith
                    Bruce, I am reading this as a suggestion to review how my backstay is setup!
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jun 29, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Bruce,
                      I am reading this as a suggestion to review how my backstay is setup!

                      On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 11:05 PM, j28sailor50<misailor@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Tom,
                      >
                      > Take a look at Jason's pictures of his backstay in the photo section. His
                      > back stay adjuster is way down in the photo and there is lots of room to
                      > tighten the turn buckles.
                      >
                      > This backstay set up looks quite loose compared to mine. My adjuster goes
                      > almost back to the top of the triangle when the tension is off.
                      >
                      > Bruce
                      >
                      > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, "thconway1" <actionman@...> wrote:
                      >>
                      >> My forestay used to have 10+ inches of sag. It would be swinging when the
                      >> backstay was completely off. Now it has about 6 inches of sag in a good
                      >> breeze. This is just eyeing it out, but it has half the sag it used to.
                      >>
                      >> I did not cut the headstay, I just tightened the adjustment part. The yard
                      >> made it connect, but never tightened it.
                      >>
                      >> The uppers are probably not hard enough. I don't have a gauge. There is
                      >> little give when I press against them.
                      >>
                      >> As far as shortening the backstay, I would do this since I want the whole
                      >> mast to come back further. I think a raked back mast has better speed
                      >> potential. The backstay is very useful for tightening the headstay. While it
                      >> is not one to one, tension on the backstay definitely helps tighten the
                      >> headstay. You should always have backstay tension upwind in anything over 8.
                      >> Swept back shrouds keep the tension on, but the backstay will help.
                      >>
                      >> I would still want the backstay shorter since if the mast were to tilt
                      >> back further, I would have no way to flatten the main.
                      >>
                      >> I am used to runners on a frac rig, so it is taking some adjustment to
                      >> figure out the proper shroud tension and how much the bachstay helps.
                      >>
                      >> --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, jason3317@ wrote:
                      >> >
                      >> > Thanks for the feedback. A few questions:
                      >> >
                      >> > Can you describe how loose your forestay is/was?
                      >> >
                      >> > When you say, "shortened", did you physically cut and reswage, or just
                      >> > tighten up the forestay attachment?
                      >> >
                      >> > How hard do you have the upper shrouds set on your boat?
                      >> >
                      >> > You said your preference would have been to shorten the backstay...can
                      >> > you explain that concept a bit further? I was under the impression the
                      >> > backstay on a 3/4 frac really influenced only the top mast, the forestay
                      >> > would receive very little addtl tension from pulling the backstay on hard.
                      >> > Is this assumption wrong (and I definitely could be here)?
                      >> >
                      >> > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
                      >> >
                      >> > -----Original Message-----
                      >> > From: "thconway1" <actionman@>
                      >> >
                      >> > Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 16:59:33
                      >> > To: <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
                      >> > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Forestay Problem?
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> > My forestay has been too loose for a while. I finally shortened it this
                      >> > year. I would have preferred to leave it longer and shorten the backstay,
                      >> > but I was not ready for that project.
                      >> >
                      >> > To tighten your headstay, you should be able to get a little from
                      >> > putting the backstay on hard and tightening the shrouds.
                      >> >
                      >> > There is a good guide out there, but I do not know the link. I brought
                      >> > the mast forward using a halyard. Then I had to take apart the furler and
                      >> > tighten it up. It was confusing since threads are going in different
                      >> > directions. The whole thing took two hours and I had a helper.
                      >> >
                      >> > You will also need one or two vice grips to keep the RF foil above where
                      >> > you are working.
                      >> >
                      >> > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, "Lenny Reich" <lsreich@> wrote:
                      >> > >
                      >> > > The backstay definitely helps tension the forestay. Think about how
                      >> > > tensioning the backstay bends the mast -- additional force aft at the top of
                      >> > > the mast is opposed by (additional) forward force at the partners by the
                      >> > > forestay, putting a torque on the mast and bending it. That additional
                      >> > > forward force is in the form of higher tension on the forestay. Anyway,
                      >> > > that's how it seems to the engineer in me. Lenny
                      >> > >
                      >> > > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, "j28sailor50" <misailor@> wrote:
                      >> > > >
                      >> > > > Not aware of a turn buckle on the forstay, but the revious owner
                      >> > > > installed roller furling. I always have set some initial tension in the
                      >> > > > backstay, even with backstay adjuster all the way off. I am not sure if this
                      >> > > > is correct or how much initial tension should be on the backstay.
                      >> > > >
                      >> > > > Bruce
                      >> > > >
                      >> > > > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Jason Smith <jason3317@> wrote:
                      >> > > > >
                      >> > > > > I think my forestay may be too loose. We were out today in 8-12
                      >> > > > > knts;
                      >> > > > > sailing close-hauled, I could see the roller-fuler foil
                      >> > > > > oscillating/moving back and forth, shaking the rig. This happened
                      >> > > > > when I was pinching up a bit to clear a shoal. It did not occur
                      >> > > > > last
                      >> > > > > year and there have been no changes to the rig / tension that I
                      >> > > > > know
                      >> > > > > about. The backstay was fully off, but I don't think this should
                      >> > > > > have
                      >> > > > > an effect with our fractional rigs.
                      >> > > > >
                      >> > > > > At the dock, I think I can see a bit of sag up the forestay (hard
                      >> > > > > to
                      >> > > > > tell with the sail furled). I can swing the furler sailed in
                      >> > > > > approx 6
                      >> > > > > in circle. Also, I am not sure if I can point as well as last year
                      >> > > > > (30-35 deg apparent)
                      >> > > > >
                      >> > > > > So....is the forestay too lose? I know the majority of the
                      >> > > > > forestay
                      >> > > > > tension is generated by the upper / cap shrouds, but do you guys
                      >> > > > > know
                      >> > > > > if there is a turnbuckle under the furler? I am a little worried
                      >> > > > > about it being too loose....to the point where it is dangerous.
                      >> > > > >
                      >> > > > > Insight appreciated. I am a real novice with rig tuning. I plan to
                      >> > > > > read up on it more tonight. We're expecting 15-20, gusts to 30knts
                      >> > > > > tomm, so I will have an opportunity to test all the heavy air tech
                      >> > > > > tips we discussed earlier this week.
                      >> > > > >
                      >> > > > > Thanks!
                      >> > > > >
                      >> > > > > Jason
                      >> > > > >
                      >> > > >
                      >> > >
                      >> >
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                    • j28sailor50
                      Jason, Right, I was looking at your pictures that show your backstay. My and comparing them to my boat. Your turn buckles have much more thread showing than
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jun 29, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Jason,

                        Right, I was looking at your pictures that show your backstay. My and comparing them to my boat. Your turn buckles have much more thread showing than mine. Between the center nut and turn buckle I have between a 1/2" and 3/4" of thread.

                        Also, when the tension is off my backstay adjuster, the two blocks on the cables are at the top of the cables. Yours looks like it is down a foot and a half at the dock. Not where it should be if there is no tension on the adjuster.

                        I would try to tensioning the backstay turn buckles first to see if this puts some tension on the headstay without adding bend to the mast.

                        I will add a picture that shows my backstay on the photo page.

                        Bruce

                        --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Jason Smith <jason3317@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Bruce,
                        > I am reading this as a suggestion to review how my backstay is setup!
                        >
                        > On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 11:05 PM, j28sailor50<misailor@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Tom,
                        > >
                        > > Take a look at Jason's pictures of his backstay in the photo section. His
                        > > back stay adjuster is way down in the photo and there is lots of room to
                        > > tighten the turn buckles.
                        > >
                        > > This backstay set up looks quite loose compared to mine. My adjuster goes
                        > > almost back to the top of the triangle when the tension is off.
                        > >
                        > > Bruce
                        > >
                        > > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, "thconway1" <actionman@> wrote:
                        > >>
                        > >> My forestay used to have 10+ inches of sag. It would be swinging when the
                        > >> backstay was completely off. Now it has about 6 inches of sag in a good
                        > >> breeze. This is just eyeing it out, but it has half the sag it used to.
                        > >>
                        > >> I did not cut the headstay, I just tightened the adjustment part. The yard
                        > >> made it connect, but never tightened it.
                        > >>
                        > >> The uppers are probably not hard enough. I don't have a gauge. There is
                        > >> little give when I press against them.
                        > >>
                        > >> As far as shortening the backstay, I would do this since I want the whole
                        > >> mast to come back further. I think a raked back mast has better speed
                        > >> potential. The backstay is very useful for tightening the headstay. While it
                        > >> is not one to one, tension on the backstay definitely helps tighten the
                        > >> headstay. You should always have backstay tension upwind in anything over 8.
                        > >> Swept back shrouds keep the tension on, but the backstay will help.
                        > >>
                        > >> I would still want the backstay shorter since if the mast were to tilt
                        > >> back further, I would have no way to flatten the main.
                        > >>
                        > >> I am used to runners on a frac rig, so it is taking some adjustment to
                        > >> figure out the proper shroud tension and how much the bachstay helps.
                        > >>
                        > >> --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, jason3317@ wrote:
                        > >> >
                        > >> > Thanks for the feedback. A few questions:
                        > >> >
                        > >> > Can you describe how loose your forestay is/was?
                        > >> >
                        > >> > When you say, "shortened", did you physically cut and reswage, or just
                        > >> > tighten up the forestay attachment?
                        > >> >
                        > >> > How hard do you have the upper shrouds set on your boat?
                        > >> >
                        > >> > You said your preference would have been to shorten the backstay...can
                        > >> > you explain that concept a bit further? I was under the impression the
                        > >> > backstay on a 3/4 frac really influenced only the top mast, the forestay
                        > >> > would receive very little addtl tension from pulling the backstay on hard.
                        > >> > Is this assumption wrong (and I definitely could be here)?
                        > >> >
                        > >> > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
                        > >> >
                        > >> > -----Original Message-----
                        > >> > From: "thconway1" <actionman@>
                        > >> >
                        > >> > Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 16:59:33
                        > >> > To: <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
                        > >> > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Forestay Problem?
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > >> > My forestay has been too loose for a while. I finally shortened it this
                        > >> > year. I would have preferred to leave it longer and shorten the backstay,
                        > >> > but I was not ready for that project.
                        > >> >
                        > >> > To tighten your headstay, you should be able to get a little from
                        > >> > putting the backstay on hard and tightening the shrouds.
                        > >> >
                        > >> > There is a good guide out there, but I do not know the link. I brought
                        > >> > the mast forward using a halyard. Then I had to take apart the furler and
                        > >> > tighten it up. It was confusing since threads are going in different
                        > >> > directions. The whole thing took two hours and I had a helper.
                        > >> >
                        > >> > You will also need one or two vice grips to keep the RF foil above where
                        > >> > you are working.
                        > >> >
                        > >> > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, "Lenny Reich" <lsreich@> wrote:
                        > >> > >
                        > >> > > The backstay definitely helps tension the forestay. Think about how
                        > >> > > tensioning the backstay bends the mast -- additional force aft at the top of
                        > >> > > the mast is opposed by (additional) forward force at the partners by the
                        > >> > > forestay, putting a torque on the mast and bending it. That additional
                        > >> > > forward force is in the form of higher tension on the forestay. Anyway,
                        > >> > > that's how it seems to the engineer in me. Lenny
                        > >> > >
                        > >> > > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, "j28sailor50" <misailor@> wrote:
                        > >> > > >
                        > >> > > > Not aware of a turn buckle on the forstay, but the revious owner
                        > >> > > > installed roller furling. I always have set some initial tension in the
                        > >> > > > backstay, even with backstay adjuster all the way off. I am not sure if this
                        > >> > > > is correct or how much initial tension should be on the backstay.
                        > >> > > >
                        > >> > > > Bruce
                        > >> > > >
                        > >> > > > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Jason Smith <jason3317@> wrote:
                        > >> > > > >
                        > >> > > > > I think my forestay may be too loose. We were out today in 8-12
                        > >> > > > > knts;
                        > >> > > > > sailing close-hauled, I could see the roller-fuler foil
                        > >> > > > > oscillating/moving back and forth, shaking the rig. This happened
                        > >> > > > > when I was pinching up a bit to clear a shoal. It did not occur
                        > >> > > > > last
                        > >> > > > > year and there have been no changes to the rig / tension that I
                        > >> > > > > know
                        > >> > > > > about. The backstay was fully off, but I don't think this should
                        > >> > > > > have
                        > >> > > > > an effect with our fractional rigs.
                        > >> > > > >
                        > >> > > > > At the dock, I think I can see a bit of sag up the forestay (hard
                        > >> > > > > to
                        > >> > > > > tell with the sail furled). I can swing the furler sailed in
                        > >> > > > > approx 6
                        > >> > > > > in circle. Also, I am not sure if I can point as well as last year
                        > >> > > > > (30-35 deg apparent)
                        > >> > > > >
                        > >> > > > > So....is the forestay too lose? I know the majority of the
                        > >> > > > > forestay
                        > >> > > > > tension is generated by the upper / cap shrouds, but do you guys
                        > >> > > > > know
                        > >> > > > > if there is a turnbuckle under the furler? I am a little worried
                        > >> > > > > about it being too loose....to the point where it is dangerous.
                        > >> > > > >
                        > >> > > > > Insight appreciated. I am a real novice with rig tuning. I plan to
                        > >> > > > > read up on it more tonight. We're expecting 15-20, gusts to 30knts
                        > >> > > > > tomm, so I will have an opportunity to test all the heavy air tech
                        > >> > > > > tips we discussed earlier this week.
                        > >> > > > >
                        > >> > > > > Thanks!
                        > >> > > > >
                        > >> > > > > Jason
                        > >> > > > >
                        > >> > > >
                        > >> > >
                        > >> >
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
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