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Re: [J28Sailors] Re: J28 wannabe-owner wants to know what to look for

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  • Frank Wyman
    Excellent.  Yep the headroom was one of my top 5 things.  So after checking chainplates, and rudder/helm tightness I went straight below and walked forward
    Message 1 of 14 , May 14, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      Excellent.  Yep the headroom was one of my top 5 things.  So after checking chainplates, and rudder/helm tightness I went straight below and walked forward as I would normally walk and did not bump.  Perfect height!  Having to crouch all the time in a cabin gets old quick. 



      From: David Hastings <david.hastings@...>
      To: "J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com" <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
      Cc: "J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com" <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 12:05 AM
      Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: J28 wannabe-owner wants to know what to look for

       
      Hi again Frank,

      I live in Florida but return to Lake Ontario (upstate New York) in mid June and live on my boat until the first week of September. I have family up there. I find it perfect living for one, two or three people (two have to be friendly). I guess it's all about what you are used to. After 28 years on a J29, the J28 is so much better, accommodations wise, AND it has headroom!

      Sent from my iPad

      David L. Hastings
      5608 W. Woodside Dr.
      Crystal River, FL 34429
      Home: 352-794-6440
      Cell: 315-345-2078

      On May 13, 2013, at 1:21 PM, "wymanfrank" <wymanfrank@...> wrote:

       

      Bill and David
      Thanks so very much for the excellent information! Useful info plus just the kind of affirmation of the J28 I need to hear! Yes it had just rained hard plus boot is pretty old so guess I'm ok with that level of bilge water. I thot the transom was cored too - my bad - glad to hear its solid. I hear ya on the Yanmars - plus the great thing form my perspective is two of my friends boats I sail on at the marina this boat will berth have the exact same engine so lots of familiarity etc. Good to know removing that dry sink helps. Love the info on engine removal to cabin as I too likely would eventually switch to dripless. Man, I found access to the current stuffing box on shaft REALLY tight...tho I'm sure removing more stuff outa port lazarette would have made it easier going.

      I've put port/hatch gaskets on the list to check thoroughly.

      Thanks again for great info!

      One other comment/question: a pretty big plus (on my list anyhow) on this particular boat is it has air conditioning. Aqua-Air. Was mighty impressed how it cooled cabin - huge plus in Southeast summer. Anyone know if these were options or if it was definitely added afterward?

      Thanks again!!

      --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@...> wrote:
      >
      > Frank,
      >
      > Welcome to the group. I think Bill Foster is right on the money in everything he commented on and, thanks Bill for the excellent info on moving the engine. I may want to install one of those dripless fittings some day and clean up my engine too. Frank, the Yanmar is pretty much unstoppable. It's unlikely you'll ever need to pull it. These Yanmars just run and run and run. And, by removing the dry sink over the engine, access it pretty darn good, much better than most boats of comparable size.
      >
      > I always have water in my bilge and it's totally from the mast. Same was true of my J29 that I bought new and sailed for 28 years. I was never been able to stop rain water from coming down the mast and seeping into the bilge. But, no big deal. Trust me, the keel is solid. I rammed my 29 onto the rocks hard enough to take a pretty good chunk of lead out of the keel but no damage ever to it's foundation with the hull.
      >
      > You won't have an issue with the exhaust area as the transom is solid glass. The mast rake sounds right. J's like rake!
      >
      > Sounds to me like you are too concerned about core. Relax. I suspect you will find everything sound if the boat is in the kind of shape you say it is. After you get it, build some chainplate islands and you'll never have any core issues in the chainplate areas.
      >
      > Good luck with your purchase. You won't fine a better boat. GO J.
      >
      > Sent from my iPad
      >
      > David L. Hastings
      >
      > On May 13, 2013, at 11:47 AM, "wymanfrank" <wymanfrank@...> wrote:
      >
      > > Hi. I'm brand new to group. Not new to sailing, but new to J/Boats. Have been in market for 30-33 footer for nearly 2 years and had pretty much settled on Pearson 10m, pretty much based on basic numbers such as Capsize, Comfort, PHRF, build quality, etc. I offshore race some (Moorings 50 and Morgan 30/2) and looking for a boat to keep in Charleston SC to mostly weekend cruise but race some (more inshore in bay than offshore). As I'm 2 hours from coast I need something to stay in at dock Friday nite comfortably then sail/cruise sat-sun. Never did find an acceptable boat which is good cuz I finally decided to go smaller than 30-33. I've had probably 8 "cabin" size sailboats over the years 20-26 feet and definitely don't want THAT small of accommodations. But thot maybe since first boat at coast I'd start smaller - esp as getting crew can be hard and short/single-handing is likely some weekends. So again by the numbers (and not a huge $ kitty) I ended up with Hunter Cherubini 27, Tartan 28, Ericson 29, Ranger 29, Santana 28, etc. Then I discovered the J/28 and was immediately smitten. After viewing one this weekend I'm now fully in love! So, ... as I move forward with last step before out and out purchase, - the survey - I have some basic questions I'd like to ask the forum here. Any/all info appreciated. Thanks!
      > >
      > > 1. Speed aside, I've always had a huge fear of cored hulls! My number 1 priority with survey will be moisture readings of the hull. What types of moisture readings would indicate a boat I should probably walk away from - and what is acceptable? I understand the exhaust exit area on transom is particularly bad - any other places to inspect carefully for potentially high moisture readings?
      > >
      > > 2. I have recored decks in other boats (from below - ugh) and I swore I'd NEVER do that again. I have more of a hatred than a fear of cored decks :) - I really just don't get why manufacturers don't "pot" all thru-deck holes form the get go (the way Don Casey promotes (drill out big, fill w/ hard epoxy, drill smaller thru hole, etc.)) !! ] I digress. Anyhow my primary mission this weekend was - after reading thru so MANY findings of moisture/rot in J28 decks esp near chainplates - to identify and assess size of bad spots (i.e. i expected to find SOME) and then maybe try to talk myself into undertaking recoring deck one more time! I was flabergasted - the deck was rock solid all over! Maybe I'm a poor tapper - and survey will find more than I did - but my basic tapping found no bad spots and in fact the area around the chainplates was rock solid as if it has ben attended to by some PO. Anyhow, ditto on moisture readings question above - what levels would be acceptable, by area?
      > >
      > > 3. Tho the boat was absolutely spotlessly clean - pretty amazing actually - there was ~ 2 inches of water in bilge. I don;t like seeing that. Keel bolts were only surface teensey bt of rust - not bad. And basic bilge itself was pretty spotlessly white (ie NO usual bilge grunge). Broker wrote it off as 2" of bilge water is just something all keel stepped mast boats are gonna have. Any comments on water in bilge? The float switch pumps seemed to be in working order (tho I didn't test them) - it just seems the water was not quite high enough to trigger.
      > >
      > > 4. Does anyone have a picture of the stock mast step/foot? This boat seemed to have maybe a set up that wasn't "stock" ... a metal (aluminum) cross beam a few feet long. I can put a picture up once I get them downloaded.
      > >
      > > 5. Apparently this boat had some type "reinforcing" done down in bilge/keel stump area. am definitely doing all due diligence to get to bottom of it (was it a hard grounding with cracking hull near keel?! etc), but for now does this sound like a deal breaker? How far downward is the core carried? Is the keel stump solid or is there any plywood or core down there? Is the area of hull "near" the keel stump cored and in a hard grounding is there the chance of water entry there? I suppose the moisture reader will tell all - but wanted to ask about this oddity in this particular boat.
      > >
      > > 6. Mast rake. Wow - my very first impression of boat was how extreme the mast rake above where shrouds connect is! The sliding adjustment on backstay was completely loose, yet that upper 5th of the mast seemed 7-8 degrees raked vs the rest of mast. Which seemed excessive to me. Is that normal?
      > >
      > > 7. Engine access is pretty tight. Duh - its a 28' boat. While started right up and ran smooth as a sewing machine, a lot of oil spots underneath sorta got my attention. Probably would never pull it/rebuild it til a "bitter end" scenario, BUT thought I'd ask the general question: How hard/easy is it to pull that Yanmar 2gm out of boat to rebuild or replace?
      > >
      > > 8. On the pot pull out berth, there wasn't a leg on the aftmost part of pullout. Seemed sort of frail. Is that design or should there be a leg of some type?
      > >
      > > Any/all responses on any of this is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!
      > >
      > > Frank
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > __________________________________________________________
      > > When Diet & Exercise Fail
      > > Learn how to control 4 hormones all skinny people have in balance.
      > > RealDose.com
      >



      ____________________________________________________________


    • Tommy Koe
      Hi Frank,   Congrats.  I have been looking for J s for awhile.  where did you find yours??   Tommy ________________________________ From: Frank Wyman
      Message 2 of 14 , May 14, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Frank,
         
        Congrats.  I have been looking for J's for awhile.  where did you find yours??
         
        Tommy

        From: Frank Wyman <wymanfrank@...>
        To: "J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com" <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 8:37 AM
        Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: J28 wannabe-owner wants to know what to look for
         
        Excellent.  Yep the headroom was one of my top 5 things.  So after checking chainplates, and rudder/helm tightness I went straight below and walked forward as I would normally walk and did not bump.  Perfect height!  Having to crouch all the time in a cabin gets old quick. 


        From: David Hastings <david.hastings@...>
        To: "J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com" <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
        Cc: "J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com" <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 12:05 AM
        Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: J28 wannabe-owner wants to know what to look for
         
        Hi again Frank,

        I live in Florida but return to Lake Ontario (upstate New York) in mid June and live on my boat until the first week of September. I have family up there. I find it perfect living for one, two or three people (two have to be friendly). I guess it's all about what you are used to. After 28 years on a J29, the J28 is so much better, accommodations wise, AND it has headroom! Sent from my iPad

        David L. Hastings
        5608 W. Woodside Dr.
        Crystal River, FL 34429
        Home: 352-794-6440
        Cell: 315-345-2078
        On May 13, 2013, at 1:21 PM, "wymanfrank" <wymanfrank@...> wrote:
         
        Bill and David Thanks so very much for the excellent information! Useful info plus just the kind of affirmation of the J28 I need to hear! Yes it had just rained hard plus boot is pretty old so guess I'm ok with that level of bilge water. I thot the transom was cored too - my bad - glad to hear its solid. I hear ya on the Yanmars - plus the great thing form my perspective is two of my friends boats I sail on at the marina this boat will berth have the exact same engine so lots of familiarity etc. Good to know removing that dry sink helps. Love the info on engine removal to cabin as I too likely would eventually switch to dripless. Man, I found access to the current stuffing box on shaft REALLY tight...tho I'm sure removing more stuff outa port lazarette would have made it easier going. I've put port/hatch gaskets on the list to check thoroughly. Thanks again for great info! One other comment/question: a pretty big plus (on my list anyhow) on this particular boat is it has air conditioning. Aqua-Air. Was mighty impressed how it cooled cabin - huge plus in Southeast summer. Anyone know if these were options or if it was definitely added afterward? Thanks again!! --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@...> wrote: > > Frank, > > Welcome to the group. I think Bill Foster is right on the money in everything he commented on and, thanks Bill for the excellent info on moving the engine. I may want to install one of those dripless fittings some day and clean up my engine too. Frank, the Yanmar is pretty much unstoppable. It's unlikely you'll ever need to pull it. These Yanmars just run and run and run. And, by removing the dry sink over the engine, access it pretty darn good, much better than most boats of comparable size. > > I always have water in my bilge and it's totally from the mast. Same was true of my J29 that I bought new and sailed for 28 years. I was never been able to stop rain water from coming down the mast and seeping into the bilge. But, no big deal. Trust me, the keel is solid. I rammed my 29 onto the rocks hard enough to take a pretty good chunk of lead out of the keel but no damage ever to it's foundation with the hull. > > You won't have an issue with the exhaust area as the transom is solid glass. The mast rake sounds right. J's like rake! > > Sounds to me like you are too concerned about core. Relax. I suspect you will find everything sound if the boat is in the kind of shape you say it is. After you get it, build some chainplate islands and you'll never have any core issues in the chainplate areas. > > Good luck with your purchase. You won't fine a better boat. GO J. > > Sent from my iPad > > David L. Hastings > > On May 13, 2013, at 11:47 AM, "wymanfrank" <wymanfrank@...> wrote: > > > Hi. I'm brand new to group. Not new to sailing, but new to J/Boats. Have been in market for 30-33 footer for nearly 2 years and had pretty much settled on Pearson 10m, pretty much based on basic numbers such as Capsize, Comfort, PHRF, build quality, etc. I offshore race some (Moorings 50 and Morgan 30/2) and looking for a boat to keep in Charleston SC to mostly weekend cruise but race some (more inshore in bay than offshore). As I'm 2 hours from coast I need something to stay in at dock Friday nite comfortably then sail/cruise sat-sun. Never did find an acceptable boat which is good cuz I finally decided to go smaller than 30-33. I've had probably 8 "cabin" size sailboats over the years 20-26 feet and definitely don't want THAT small of accommodations. But thot maybe since first boat at coast I'd start smaller - esp as getting crew can be hard and short/single-handing is likely some weekends. So again by the numbers (and not a huge $ kitty) I ended up with Hunter Cherubini 27, Tartan 28, Ericson 29, Ranger 29, Santana 28, etc. Then I discovered the J/28 and was immediately smitten. After viewing one this weekend I'm now fully in love! So, ... as I move forward with last step before out and out purchase, - the survey - I have some basic questions I'd like to ask the forum here. Any/all info appreciated. Thanks! > > > > 1. Speed aside, I've always had a huge fear of cored hulls! My number 1 priority with survey will be moisture readings of the hull. What types of moisture readings would indicate a boat I should probably walk away from - and what is acceptable? I understand the exhaust exit area on transom is particularly bad - any other places to inspect carefully for potentially high moisture readings? > > > > 2. I have recored decks in other boats (from below - ugh) and I swore I'd NEVER do that again. I have more of a hatred than a fear of cored decks :) - I really just don't get why manufacturers don't "pot" all thru-deck holes form the get go (the way Don Casey promotes (drill out big, fill w/ hard epoxy, drill smaller thru hole, etc.)) !! ] I digress. Anyhow my primary mission this weekend was - after reading thru so MANY findings of moisture/rot in J28 decks esp near chainplates - to identify and assess size of bad spots (i.e. i expected to find SOME) and then maybe try to talk myself into undertaking recoring deck one more time! I was flabergasted - the deck was rock solid all over! Maybe I'm a poor tapper - and survey will find more than I did - but my basic tapping found no bad spots and in fact the area around the chainplates was rock solid as if it has ben attended to by some PO. Anyhow, ditto on moisture readings question above - what levels would be acceptable, by area? > > > > 3. Tho the boat was absolutely spotlessly clean - pretty amazing actually - there was ~ 2 inches of water in bilge. I don;t like seeing that. Keel bolts were only surface teensey bt of rust - not bad. And basic bilge itself was pretty spotlessly white (ie NO usual bilge grunge). Broker wrote it off as 2" of bilge water is just something all keel stepped mast boats are gonna have. Any comments on water in bilge? The float switch pumps seemed to be in working order (tho I didn't test them) - it just seems the water was not quite high enough to trigger. > > > > 4. Does anyone have a picture of the stock mast step/foot? This boat seemed to have maybe a set up that wasn't "stock" ... a metal (aluminum) cross beam a few feet long. I can put a picture up once I get them downloaded. > > > > 5. Apparently this boat had some type "reinforcing" done down in bilge/keel stump area. am definitely doing all due diligence to get to bottom of it (was it a hard grounding with cracking hull near keel?! etc), but for now does this sound like a deal breaker? How far downward is the core carried? Is the keel stump solid or is there any plywood or core down there? Is the area of hull "near" the keel stump cored and in a hard grounding is there the chance of water entry there? I suppose the moisture reader will tell all - but wanted to ask about this oddity in this particular boat. > > > > 6. Mast rake. Wow - my very first impression of boat was how extreme the mast rake above where shrouds connect is! The sliding adjustment on backstay was completely loose, yet that upper 5th of the mast seemed 7-8 degrees raked vs the rest of mast. Which seemed excessive to me. Is that normal? > > > > 7. Engine access is pretty tight. Duh - its a 28' boat. While started right up and ran smooth as a sewing machine, a lot of oil spots underneath sorta got my attention. Probably would never pull it/rebuild it til a "bitter end" scenario, BUT thought I'd ask the general question: How hard/easy is it to pull that Yanmar 2gm out of boat to rebuild or replace? > > > > 8. On the pot pull out berth, there wasn't a leg on the aftmost part of pullout. Seemed sort of frail. Is that design or should there be a leg of some type? > > > > Any/all responses on any of this is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance! > > > > Frank > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > When Diet & Exercise Fail > > Learn how to control 4 hormones all skinny people have in balance. > > RealDose.com >
        ____________________________________________________________
      • Tommy Koe
        Hi Frank,   Quick question.  did you look at the Tartan 28 as well??  if you did, what differences did you see? what did you like and dis-like?   Tommy
        Message 3 of 14 , May 14, 2013
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          Hi Frank,
           
          Quick question.  did you look at the Tartan 28 as well??  if you did, what differences did you see? what did you like and dis-like?
           
          Tommy

          From: wymanfrank <wymanfrank@...>
          To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 11:47 AM
          Subject: [J28Sailors] J28 wannabe-owner wants to know what to look for
           
          Hi. I'm brand new to group. Not new to sailing, but new to J/Boats. Have been in market for 30-33 footer for nearly 2 years and had pretty much settled on Pearson 10m, pretty much based on basic numbers such as Capsize, Comfort, PHRF, build quality, etc. I offshore race some (Moorings 50 and Morgan 30/2) and looking for a boat to keep in Charleston SC to mostly weekend cruise but race some (more inshore in bay than offshore). As I'm 2 hours from coast I need something to stay in at dock Friday nite comfortably then sail/cruise sat-sun. Never did find an acceptable boat which is good cuz I finally decided to go smaller than 30-33. I've had probably 8 "cabin" size sailboats over the years 20-26 feet and definitely don't want THAT small of accommodations. But thot maybe since first boat at coast I'd start smaller - esp as getting crew can be hard and short/single-handing is likely some weekends. So again by the numbers (and not a huge $ kitty) I ended up with Hunter Cherubini 27, Tartan 28, Ericson 29, Ranger 29, Santana 28, etc. Then I discovered the J/28 and was immediately smitten. After viewing one this weekend I'm now fully in love! So, ... as I move forward with last step before out and out purchase, - the survey - I have some basic questions I'd like to ask the forum here. Any/all info appreciated. Thanks!

          1. Speed aside, I've always had a huge fear of cored hulls! My number 1 priority with survey will be moisture readings of the hull. What types of moisture readings would indicate a boat I should probably walk away from - and what is acceptable? I understand the exhaust exit area on transom is particularly bad - any other places to inspect carefully for potentially high moisture readings?

          2. I have recored decks in other boats (from below - ugh) and I swore I'd NEVER do that again. I have more of a hatred than a fear of cored decks :) - I really just don't get why manufacturers don't "pot" all thru-deck holes form the get go (the way Don Casey promotes (drill out big, fill w/ hard epoxy, drill smaller thru hole, etc.)) !! ] I digress. Anyhow my primary mission this weekend was - after reading thru so MANY findings of moisture/rot in J28 decks esp near chainplates - to identify and assess size of bad spots (i.e. i expected to find SOME) and then maybe try to talk myself into undertaking recoring deck one more time! I was flabergasted - the deck was rock solid all over! Maybe I'm a poor tapper - and survey will find more than I did - but my basic tapping found no bad spots and in fact the area around the chainplates was rock solid as if it has ben attended to by some PO. Anyhow, ditto on moisture readings question above - what levels would be acceptable, by area?

          3. Tho the boat was absolutely spotlessly clean - pretty amazing actually - there was ~ 2 inches of water in bilge. I don;t like seeing that. Keel bolts were only surface teensey bt of rust - not bad. And basic bilge itself was pretty spotlessly white (ie NO usual bilge grunge). Broker wrote it off as 2" of bilge water is just something all keel stepped mast boats are gonna have. Any comments on water in bilge? The float switch pumps seemed to be in working order (tho I didn't test them) - it just seems the water was not quite high enough to trigger.

          4. Does anyone have a picture of the stock mast step/foot? This boat seemed to have maybe a set up that wasn't "stock" ... a metal (aluminum) cross beam a few feet long. I can put a picture up once I get them downloaded.

          5. Apparently this boat had some type "reinforcing" done down in bilge/keel stump area. am definitely doing all due diligence to get to bottom of it (was it a hard grounding with cracking hull near keel?! etc), but for now does this sound like a deal breaker? How far downward is the core carried? Is the keel stump solid or is there any plywood or core down there? Is the area of hull "near" the keel stump cored and in a hard grounding is there the chance of water entry there? I suppose the moisture reader will tell all - but wanted to ask about this oddity in this particular boat.

          6. Mast rake. Wow - my very first impression of boat was how extreme the mast rake above where shrouds connect is! The sliding adjustment on backstay was completely loose, yet that upper 5th of the mast seemed 7-8 degrees raked vs the rest of mast. Which seemed excessive to me. Is that normal?

          7. Engine access is pretty tight. Duh - its a 28' boat. While started right up and ran smooth as a sewing machine, a lot of oil spots underneath sorta got my attention. Probably would never pull it/rebuild it til a "bitter end" scenario, BUT thought I'd ask the general question: How hard/easy is it to pull that Yanmar 2gm out of boat to rebuild or replace?

          8. On the pot pull out berth, there wasn't a leg on the aftmost part of pullout. Seemed sort of frail. Is that design or should there be a leg of some type?

          Any/all responses on any of this is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

          Frank

        • David Hastings
          Frank, one more thing, my J29, the Incredible Hull had a green hull (of course) and never had any problems other than chalking as the years went on. I much
          Message 4 of 14 , May 14, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            Frank, one more thing, my J29, the "Incredible Hull" had a green hull (of course) and never had any problems other than chalking as the years went on. I much prefer the colored hull. Just looks better, in my opinion.

            Sent from my iPad

            David L. Hastings
            5608 W. Woodside Dr.
            Crystal River, FL 34429
            Home: 352-794-6440
            Cell: 315-345-2078

            On May 14, 2013, at 8:36 AM, Frank Wyman <wymanfrank@...> wrote:

             

            Thanks so much.  Yea I took an about face.  I was certain I would never have a boat with a capsize over 2.0 (J28 is 2.01) or comfort factor under 25 (J28 is 21ish).  BUT when you put all the pieces together - for a 28 footer it can't be beat.  The placement of everything, the headroom, the head, the vberth size, etc etc, its all pretty much my ideal small yacht.  PLUS this particular boat is in amazing condition.  I truly sorta wanted to find something anything to talk myself out of it.  But all was so perfect.  So fingers crossed on the bottom/keel now and that it passes survey well.  Again, where is your boat berthed?



            From: "sailingmaster@..." <sailingmaster@...>
            To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 8:22 PM
            Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] J28 wannabe-owner wants to know what to look for

             
            HI Frank

            We have been corresponding quite a bit here re your upcoming boat puchase

            I was reading about your idea of staying aboard for the weekends.
            I bought my boat to do just that.  I live over and hour from most water, and most places I like to sail are 90-120 mins from me.
            I teach a junior sailing program in the summer and actually live aboard all of july and august. I am 6'2 and 240 lbs and I fit in the berths on the J just fine. the V berth is huge.

            That said the boat fills up fast with more than 2 people, but i can stow enough gear and food for a week at at time and be quite comfortable. I have no hot water on my boat and shower at the Marina
            You can also quite easily single hand the boat well into the thirty knot range and she sails beautifully.

            It sounds like you found a good one at a great price.  When I bought mine, most were going in the low 30's (with a broker) I paid 26-27 and thought that was a good deal given that the previous owner had
            done a lot of upgrading.  Since then there have been two really nice one on the market, dunno what they sold for

            Good luck, you will love the boat

            JP
            On May 13, 2013, at 12:02 PM, Bill Foster wrote:

             

            Frank,
             
            My comments below, where I have some are in red.
             
            Bill
             
            From: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com [mailto:J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of wymanfrank
            Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 11:48 AM
            To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [J28Sailors] J28 wannabe-owner wants to know what to look for
             
             
            Hi. I'm brand new to group. Not new to sailing, but new to J/Boats. Have been in market for 30-33 footer for nearly 2 years and had pretty much settled on Pearson 10m, pretty much based on basic numbers such as Capsize, Comfort, PHRF, build quality, etc. I offshore race some (Moorings 50 and Morgan 30/2) and looking for a boat to keep in Charleston SC to mostly weekend cruise but race some (more inshore in bay than offshore). As I'm 2 hours from coast I need something to stay in at dock Friday nite comfortably then sail/cruise sat-sun. Never did find an acceptable boat which is good cuz I finally decided to go smaller than 30-33. I've had probably 8 "cabin" size sailboats over the years 20-26 feet and definitely don't want THAT small of accommodations. But thot maybe since first boat at coast I'd start smaller - esp as getting crew can be hard and short/single-handing is likely some weekends. So again by the numbers (and not a huge $ kitty) I ended up with Hunter Cherubini 27, Tartan 28, Ericson 29, Ranger 29, Santana 28, etc. Then I discovered the J/28 and was immediately smitten. After viewing one this weekend I'm now fully in love! So, ... as I move forward with last step before out and out purchase, - the survey - I have some basic questions I'd like to ask the forum here. Any/all info appreciated. Thanks!

            1. Speed aside, I've always had a huge fear of cored hulls! My number 1 priority with survey will be moisture readings of the hull. What types of moisture readings would indicate a boat I should probably walk away from - and what is acceptable? I understand the exhaust exit area on transom is particularly bad - any other places to inspect carefully for potentially high moisture readings?

            2. I have recored decks in other boats (from below - ugh) and I swore I'd NEVER do that again. I have more of a hatred than a fear of cored decks :) - I really just don't get why manufacturers don't "pot" all thru-deck holes form the get go (the way Don Casey promotes (drill out big, fill w/ hard epoxy, drill smaller thru hole, etc.)) !! ] I digress. Anyhow my primary mission this weekend was - after reading thru so MANY findings of moisture/rot in J28 decks esp near chainplates - to identify and assess size of bad spots (i.e. i expected to find SOME) and then maybe try to talk myself into undertaking recoring deck one more time! I was flabergasted - the deck was rock solid all over! Maybe I'm a poor tapper - and survey will find more than I did - but my basic tapping found no bad spots and in fact the area around the chainplates was rock solid as if it has ben attended to by some PO. Anyhow, ditto on moisture readings question above - what levels would be acceptable, by area?

            3. Tho the boat was absolutely spotlessly clean - pretty amazing actually - there was ~ 2 inches of water in bilge. I don;t like seeing that. Keel bolts were only surface teensey bt of rust - not bad. And basic bilge itself was pretty spotlessly white (ie NO usual bilge grunge). Broker wrote it off as 2" of bilge water is just something all keel stepped mast boats are gonna have. Any comments on water in bilge? The float switch pumps seemed to be in working order (tho I didn't test them) - it just seems the water was not quite high enough to trigger. It does happen wih the thru deck mast, had it recently rained?

            4. Does anyone have a picture of the stock mast step/foot? This boat seemed to have maybe a set up that wasn't "stock" ... a metal (aluminum) cross beam a few feet long. I can put a picture up once I get them downloaded. Sounds stock, it is an aluminum weldment that is mounted in the hull to carry load forward and aft between floors.

            5. Apparently this boat had some type "reinforcing" done down in bilge/keel stump area. am definitely doing all due diligence to get to bottom of it (was it a hard grounding with cracking hull near keel?! etc), but for now does this sound like a deal breaker? How far downward is the core carried? Is the keel stump solid or is there any plywood or core down there? Is the area of hull "near" the keel stump cored and in a hard grounding is there the chance of water entry there? I suppose the moisture reader will tell all - but wanted to ask about this oddity in this particular boat. The core stops just before the keel, you can just see it on the sides of the bilge above the keel, where the inner skin slopes gently down to meet the outer skin.

            6. Mast rake. Wow - my very first impression of boat was how extreme the mast rake above where shrouds connect is! The sliding adjustment on backstay was completely loose, yet that upper 5th of the mast seemed 7-8 degrees raked vs the rest of mast. Which seemed excessive to me. Is that normal? Sounds about right. The top of the mast is also tapered, so it tends to exaggerate how much rake your eye sees, this has been my experience when sitting up the mast from on deck.

            7. Engine access is pretty tight. Duh - its a 28' boat. While started right up and ran smooth as a sewing machine, a lot of oil spots underneath sorta got my attention. Probably would never pull it/rebuild it til a "bitter end" scenario, BUT thought I'd ask the general question: How hard/easy is it to pull that Yanmar 2gm out of boat to rebuild or replace? Yeah, its tight but workable. I pulled mine into the cabin last winter to clean it, remove the shaft, install a new coupling and PSS dripless shaft seal. Removing it was easy. I removed the dry dink above and fitted a 2x4 brace from the cockpit sole to the underside of the boom. Then braced the boom port and starboard to the toe rails with lines so it was stable. Then used the mainsheet purchase to hoist the engine out. I also had to use a small pipe to span the two motor lifting eyes, so the mainsheet purchase could then just lift in the middle. It took two people. One to hoist and one to hold the engine aft as it lifted, then swing it forward onto a timber engine bed I made.

            8. On the pot pull out berth, there wasn't a leg on the aftmost part of pullout. Seemed sort of frail. Is that design or should there be a leg of some type? I seem to recall there is a hinged leg here that should fold up out of the way for stowage and then supports the aft corner when in use. It would be an easy fix to make one to solve that problem.
            I would suggest you also check the portlight gaskets as well as hatch gaskets. They tend to dry out and crack and then leak terribly. Worth a look. It can be fixed and is relatively minor in the grand scheme of things.

            Any/all responses on any of this is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

            Frank






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          • Frank Wyman
            Yea I kinda agree - and oddly I ve had a run on blue hulls my last 4 boats (no kidding).  But this J28 (hull #8) is white. ________________________________
            Message 5 of 14 , May 14, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              Yea I kinda agree - and oddly I've had a run on blue hulls my last 4 boats (no kidding).  But this J28 (hull #8) is white.



              From: David Hastings <david.hastings@...>
              To: "J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com" <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
              Cc: "J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com" <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 4:01 PM
              Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] J28 wannabe-owner wants to know what to look for

               
              Frank, one more thing, my J29, the "Incredible Hull" had a green hull (of course) and never had any problems other than chalking as the years went on. I much prefer the colored hull. Just looks better, in my opinion.

              Sent from my iPad

              David L. Hastings
              5608 W. Woodside Dr.
              Crystal River, FL 34429
              Home: 352-794-6440
              Cell: 315-345-2078

              On May 14, 2013, at 8:36 AM, Frank Wyman <wymanfrank@...> wrote:

               
              Thanks so much.  Yea I took an about face.  I was certain I would never have a boat with a capsize over 2.0 (J28 is 2.01) or comfort factor under 25 (J28 is 21ish).  BUT when you put all the pieces together - for a 28 footer it can't be beat.  The placement of everything, the headroom, the head, the vberth size, etc etc, its all pretty much my ideal small yacht.  PLUS this particular boat is in amazing condition.  I truly sorta wanted to find something anything to talk myself out of it.  But all was so perfect.  So fingers crossed on the bottom/keel now and that it passes survey well.  Again, where is your boat berthed?



              From: "sailingmaster@..." <sailingmaster@...>
              To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 8:22 PM
              Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] J28 wannabe-owner wants to know what to look for

               
              HI Frank

              We have been corresponding quite a bit here re your upcoming boat puchase

              I was reading about your idea of staying aboard for the weekends.
              I bought my boat to do just that.  I live over and hour from most water, and most places I like to sail are 90-120 mins from me.
              I teach a junior sailing program in the summer and actually live aboard all of july and august. I am 6'2 and 240 lbs and I fit in the berths on the J just fine. the V berth is huge.

              That said the boat fills up fast with more than 2 people, but i can stow enough gear and food for a week at at time and be quite comfortable. I have no hot water on my boat and shower at the Marina
              You can also quite easily single hand the boat well into the thirty knot range and she sails beautifully.

              It sounds like you found a good one at a great price.  When I bought mine, most were going in the low 30's (with a broker) I paid 26-27 and thought that was a good deal given that the previous owner had
              done a lot of upgrading.  Since then there have been two really nice one on the market, dunno what they sold for

              Good luck, you will love the boat

              JP
              On May 13, 2013, at 12:02 PM, Bill Foster wrote:

               

              Frank,
               
              My comments below, where I have some are in red.
               
              Bill
               
              From: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com [mailto:J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of wymanfrank
              Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 11:48 AM
              To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [J28Sailors] J28 wannabe-owner wants to know what to look for
               
               
              Hi. I'm brand new to group. Not new to sailing, but new to J/Boats. Have been in market for 30-33 footer for nearly 2 years and had pretty much settled on Pearson 10m, pretty much based on basic numbers such as Capsize, Comfort, PHRF, build quality, etc. I offshore race some (Moorings 50 and Morgan 30/2) and looking for a boat to keep in Charleston SC to mostly weekend cruise but race some (more inshore in bay than offshore). As I'm 2 hours from coast I need something to stay in at dock Friday nite comfortably then sail/cruise sat-sun. Never did find an acceptable boat which is good cuz I finally decided to go smaller than 30-33. I've had probably 8 "cabin" size sailboats over the years 20-26 feet and definitely don't want THAT small of accommodations. But thot maybe since first boat at coast I'd start smaller - esp as getting crew can be hard and short/single-handing is likely some weekends. So again by the numbers (and not a huge $ kitty) I ended up with Hunter Cherubini 27, Tartan 28, Ericson 29, Ranger 29, Santana 28, etc. Then I discovered the J/28 and was immediately smitten. After viewing one this weekend I'm now fully in love! So, ... as I move forward with last step before out and out purchase, - the survey - I have some basic questions I'd like to ask the forum here. Any/all info appreciated. Thanks!

              1. Speed aside, I've always had a huge fear of cored hulls! My number 1 priority with survey will be moisture readings of the hull. What types of moisture readings would indicate a boat I should probably walk away from - and what is acceptable? I understand the exhaust exit area on transom is particularly bad - any other places to inspect carefully for potentially high moisture readings?

              2. I have recored decks in other boats (from below - ugh) and I swore I'd NEVER do that again. I have more of a hatred than a fear of cored decks :) - I really just don't get why manufacturers don't "pot" all thru-deck holes form the get go (the way Don Casey promotes (drill out big, fill w/ hard epoxy, drill smaller thru hole, etc.)) !! ] I digress. Anyhow my primary mission this weekend was - after reading thru so MANY findings of moisture/rot in J28 decks esp near chainplates - to identify and assess size of bad spots (i.e. i expected to find SOME) and then maybe try to talk myself into undertaking recoring deck one more time! I was flabergasted - the deck was rock solid all over! Maybe I'm a poor tapper - and survey will find more than I did - but my basic tapping found no bad spots and in fact the area around the chainplates was rock solid as if it has ben attended to by some PO. Anyhow, ditto on moisture readings question above - what levels would be acceptable, by area?

              3. Tho the boat was absolutely spotlessly clean - pretty amazing actually - there was ~ 2 inches of water in bilge. I don;t like seeing that. Keel bolts were only surface teensey bt of rust - not bad. And basic bilge itself was pretty spotlessly white (ie NO usual bilge grunge). Broker wrote it off as 2" of bilge water is just something all keel stepped mast boats are gonna have. Any comments on water in bilge? The float switch pumps seemed to be in working order (tho I didn't test them) - it just seems the water was not quite high enough to trigger. It does happen wih the thru deck mast, had it recently rained?

              4. Does anyone have a picture of the stock mast step/foot? This boat seemed to have maybe a set up that wasn't "stock" ... a metal (aluminum) cross beam a few feet long. I can put a picture up once I get them downloaded. Sounds stock, it is an aluminum weldment that is mounted in the hull to carry load forward and aft between floors.

              5. Apparently this boat had some type "reinforcing" done down in bilge/keel stump area. am definitely doing all due diligence to get to bottom of it (was it a hard grounding with cracking hull near keel?! etc), but for now does this sound like a deal breaker? How far downward is the core carried? Is the keel stump solid or is there any plywood or core down there? Is the area of hull "near" the keel stump cored and in a hard grounding is there the chance of water entry there? I suppose the moisture reader will tell all - but wanted to ask about this oddity in this particular boat. The core stops just before the keel, you can just see it on the sides of the bilge above the keel, where the inner skin slopes gently down to meet the outer skin.

              6. Mast rake. Wow - my very first impression of boat was how extreme the mast rake above where shrouds connect is! The sliding adjustment on backstay was completely loose, yet that upper 5th of the mast seemed 7-8 degrees raked vs the rest of mast. Which seemed excessive to me. Is that normal? Sounds about right. The top of the mast is also tapered, so it tends to exaggerate how much rake your eye sees, this has been my experience when sitting up the mast from on deck.

              7. Engine access is pretty tight. Duh - its a 28' boat. While started right up and ran smooth as a sewing machine, a lot of oil spots underneath sorta got my attention. Probably would never pull it/rebuild it til a "bitter end" scenario, BUT thought I'd ask the general question: How hard/easy is it to pull that Yanmar 2gm out of boat to rebuild or replace? Yeah, its tight but workable. I pulled mine into the cabin last winter to clean it, remove the shaft, install a new coupling and PSS dripless shaft seal. Removing it was easy. I removed the dry dink above and fitted a 2x4 brace from the cockpit sole to the underside of the boom. Then braced the boom port and starboard to the toe rails with lines so it was stable. Then used the mainsheet purchase to hoist the engine out. I also had to use a small pipe to span the two motor lifting eyes, so the mainsheet purchase could then just lift in the middle. It took two people. One to hoist and one to hold the engine aft as it lifted, then swing it forward onto a timber engine bed I made.

              8. On the pot pull out berth, there wasn't a leg on the aftmost part of pullout. Seemed sort of frail. Is that design or should there be a leg of some type? I seem to recall there is a hinged leg here that should fold up out of the way for stowage and then supports the aft corner when in use. It would be an easy fix to make one to solve that problem.
              I would suggest you also check the portlight gaskets as well as hatch gaskets. They tend to dry out and crack and then leak terribly. Worth a look. It can be fixed and is relatively minor in the grand scheme of things.

              Any/all responses on any of this is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

              Frank






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            • David Hastings
              Frank, I thought you indicated it was a colored hull. That s why I wrote. Sorry. I will admit, the while hull is much easier to keep looking good. And at this
              Message 6 of 14 , May 14, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                Frank, I thought you indicated it was a colored hull. That's why I wrote. Sorry. I will admit, the while hull is much easier to keep looking good. And at this point in my life, easier is better.

                Sent from my iPad

                David L. Hastings


                On May 14, 2013, at 4:24 PM, Frank Wyman <wymanfrank@...> wrote:

                 

                Yea I kinda agree - and oddly I've had a run on blue hulls my last 4 boats (no kidding).  But this J28 (hull #8) is white.



                From: David Hastings <david.hastings@...>
                To: "J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com" <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
                Cc: "J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com" <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 4:01 PM
                Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] J28 wannabe-owner wants to know what to look for

                 
                Frank, one more thing, my J29, the "Incredible Hull" had a green hull (of course) and never had any problems other than chalking as the years went on. I much prefer the colored hull. Just looks better, in my opinion.

                Sent from my iPad

                David L. Hastings
                5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                Crystal River, FL 34429
                Home: 352-794-6440
                Cell: 315-345-2078

                On May 14, 2013, at 8:36 AM, Frank Wyman <wymanfrank@...> wrote:

                 
                Thanks so much.  Yea I took an about face.  I was certain I would never have a boat with a capsize over 2.0 (J28 is 2.01) or comfort factor under 25 (J28 is 21ish).  BUT when you put all the pieces together - for a 28 footer it can't be beat.  The placement of everything, the headroom, the head, the vberth size, etc etc, its all pretty much my ideal small yacht.  PLUS this particular boat is in amazing condition.  I truly sorta wanted to find something anything to talk myself out of it.  But all was so perfect.  So fingers crossed on the bottom/keel now and that it passes survey well.  Again, where is your boat berthed?



                From: "sailingmaster@..." <sailingmaster@...>
                To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 8:22 PM
                Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] J28 wannabe-owner wants to know what to look for

                 
                HI Frank

                We have been corresponding quite a bit here re your upcoming boat puchase

                I was reading about your idea of staying aboard for the weekends.
                I bought my boat to do just that.  I live over and hour from most water, and most places I like to sail are 90-120 mins from me.
                I teach a junior sailing program in the summer and actually live aboard all of july and august. I am 6'2 and 240 lbs and I fit in the berths on the J just fine. the V berth is huge.

                That said the boat fills up fast with more than 2 people, but i can stow enough gear and food for a week at at time and be quite comfortable. I have no hot water on my boat and shower at the Marina
                You can also quite easily single hand the boat well into the thirty knot range and she sails beautifully.

                It sounds like you found a good one at a great price.  When I bought mine, most were going in the low 30's (with a broker) I paid 26-27 and thought that was a good deal given that the previous owner had
                done a lot of upgrading.  Since then there have been two really nice one on the market, dunno what they sold for

                Good luck, you will love the boat

                JP
                On May 13, 2013, at 12:02 PM, Bill Foster wrote:

                 

                Frank,
                 
                My comments below, where I have some are in red.
                 
                Bill
                 
                From: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com [mailto:J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of wymanfrank
                Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 11:48 AM
                To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [J28Sailors] J28 wannabe-owner wants to know what to look for
                 
                 
                Hi. I'm brand new to group. Not new to sailing, but new to J/Boats. Have been in market for 30-33 footer for nearly 2 years and had pretty much settled on Pearson 10m, pretty much based on basic numbers such as Capsize, Comfort, PHRF, build quality, etc. I offshore race some (Moorings 50 and Morgan 30/2) and looking for a boat to keep in Charleston SC to mostly weekend cruise but race some (more inshore in bay than offshore). As I'm 2 hours from coast I need something to stay in at dock Friday nite comfortably then sail/cruise sat-sun. Never did find an acceptable boat which is good cuz I finally decided to go smaller than 30-33. I've had probably 8 "cabin" size sailboats over the years 20-26 feet and definitely don't want THAT small of accommodations. But thot maybe since first boat at coast I'd start smaller - esp as getting crew can be hard and short/single-handing is likely some weekends. So again by the numbers (and not a huge $ kitty) I ended up with Hunter Cherubini 27, Tartan 28, Ericson 29, Ranger 29, Santana 28, etc. Then I discovered the J/28 and was immediately smitten. After viewing one this weekend I'm now fully in love! So, ... as I move forward with last step before out and out purchase, - the survey - I have some basic questions I'd like to ask the forum here. Any/all info appreciated. Thanks!

                1. Speed aside, I've always had a huge fear of cored hulls! My number 1 priority with survey will be moisture readings of the hull. What types of moisture readings would indicate a boat I should probably walk away from - and what is acceptable? I understand the exhaust exit area on transom is particularly bad - any other places to inspect carefully for potentially high moisture readings?

                2. I have recored decks in other boats (from below - ugh) and I swore I'd NEVER do that again. I have more of a hatred than a fear of cored decks :) - I really just don't get why manufacturers don't "pot" all thru-deck holes form the get go (the way Don Casey promotes (drill out big, fill w/ hard epoxy, drill smaller thru hole, etc.)) !! ] I digress. Anyhow my primary mission this weekend was - after reading thru so MANY findings of moisture/rot in J28 decks esp near chainplates - to identify and assess size of bad spots (i.e. i expected to find SOME) and then maybe try to talk myself into undertaking recoring deck one more time! I was flabergasted - the deck was rock solid all over! Maybe I'm a poor tapper - and survey will find more than I did - but my basic tapping found no bad spots and in fact the area around the chainplates was rock solid as if it has ben attended to by some PO. Anyhow, ditto on moisture readings question above - what levels would be acceptable, by area?

                3. Tho the boat was absolutely spotlessly clean - pretty amazing actually - there was ~ 2 inches of water in bilge. I don;t like seeing that. Keel bolts were only surface teensey bt of rust - not bad. And basic bilge itself was pretty spotlessly white (ie NO usual bilge grunge). Broker wrote it off as 2" of bilge water is just something all keel stepped mast boats are gonna have. Any comments on water in bilge? The float switch pumps seemed to be in working order (tho I didn't test them) - it just seems the water was not quite high enough to trigger. It does happen wih the thru deck mast, had it recently rained?

                4. Does anyone have a picture of the stock mast step/foot? This boat seemed to have maybe a set up that wasn't "stock" ... a metal (aluminum) cross beam a few feet long. I can put a picture up once I get them downloaded. Sounds stock, it is an aluminum weldment that is mounted in the hull to carry load forward and aft between floors.

                5. Apparently this boat had some type "reinforcing" done down in bilge/keel stump area. am definitely doing all due diligence to get to bottom of it (was it a hard grounding with cracking hull near keel?! etc), but for now does this sound like a deal breaker? How far downward is the core carried? Is the keel stump solid or is there any plywood or core down there? Is the area of hull "near" the keel stump cored and in a hard grounding is there the chance of water entry there? I suppose the moisture reader will tell all - but wanted to ask about this oddity in this particular boat. The core stops just before the keel, you can just see it on the sides of the bilge above the keel, where the inner skin slopes gently down to meet the outer skin.

                6. Mast rake. Wow - my very first impression of boat was how extreme the mast rake above where shrouds connect is! The sliding adjustment on backstay was completely loose, yet that upper 5th of the mast seemed 7-8 degrees raked vs the rest of mast. Which seemed excessive to me. Is that normal? Sounds about right. The top of the mast is also tapered, so it tends to exaggerate how much rake your eye sees, this has been my experience when sitting up the mast from on deck.

                7. Engine access is pretty tight. Duh - its a 28' boat. While started right up and ran smooth as a sewing machine, a lot of oil spots underneath sorta got my attention. Probably would never pull it/rebuild it til a "bitter end" scenario, BUT thought I'd ask the general question: How hard/easy is it to pull that Yanmar 2gm out of boat to rebuild or replace? Yeah, its tight but workable. I pulled mine into the cabin last winter to clean it, remove the shaft, install a new coupling and PSS dripless shaft seal. Removing it was easy. I removed the dry dink above and fitted a 2x4 brace from the cockpit sole to the underside of the boom. Then braced the boom port and starboard to the toe rails with lines so it was stable. Then used the mainsheet purchase to hoist the engine out. I also had to use a small pipe to span the two motor lifting eyes, so the mainsheet purchase could then just lift in the middle. It took two people. One to hoist and one to hold the engine aft as it lifted, then swing it forward onto a timber engine bed I made.

                8. On the pot pull out berth, there wasn't a leg on the aftmost part of pullout. Seemed sort of frail. Is that design or should there be a leg of some type? I seem to recall there is a hinged leg here that should fold up out of the way for stowage and then supports the aft corner when in use. It would be an easy fix to make one to solve that problem.
                I would suggest you also check the portlight gaskets as well as hatch gaskets. They tend to dry out and crack and then leak terribly. Worth a look. It can be fixed and is relatively minor in the grand scheme of things.

                Any/all responses on any of this is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

                Frank






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