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RE: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

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  • Roy Briscoe
    We have our settings at 975 uppers and 775 lowers and with the new main and mast step change are just walking away from our competition, when the wind is over
    Message 1 of 25 , Jul 5, 2012
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      We have our settings at 975 uppers and 775 lowers and with the new main and mast step change are just walking away from our competition, when the wind is over 10 knots. We have the mast base fully forward this year too. The first year we had the mast back, last year it was in the middle and this year all the way forward. If the wind is 6-8 knots, we don't do so well and under 6 we do OK. Our fleet, under 30', starts 5 minutes after the over 30' and by the end of the race we have usually passed all but 2 of the big boats, they range from 30' to 42', all but one are over 35'. We have setup the boat very close to the way the J30's in Marblehead are setup, except maybe about 100 lbs or so lighter on tension. We have a fin keel, gas grill on the stern rail, dodger, cockpit table (put away under sail), anchor stowed under the starboard settee, V-berth linens all on board. 
       
      We have a fair amount of headstay sag, maybe 8-10 inches in light to medium winds before we start cranking on the backstay. We reef the main at about 14-15 knots of wind and leave the 155% up, bring the leads back, crank on the back stay and pinch (and point) crazy high in the heavier winds, using the pinching to bleed off air.  We have a fairly light weight crew and race with about 5-6 people in the cruising fleet, 3 are women. We have the 155 set with 3 holes showing behind the lead. We usually out point everyone by huge amounts except for an Alerion 28 and a Baby Beneteau 235. On a good day (over 10 knots) we are even boat speed with the Alerion upwind and we are always faster downwind. We usually sail in a dying breeze on Tuesday nights, it might start out around 10-12 knots and slowly craps out.
       
      Roy
       

      To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
      From: jfws88@...
      Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 16:52:10 +0000
      Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

       
      Interesting, When Todd measured my boat for Roy's main he asked if I sail with the rig this loose. And, he really cranked the backstay for one of the measurements. I mean pully down to the hand rail tight. I'd never seem my mast bend that much. His words,"perfectly normal"
      I use the back stay alot in a breeze to help flatten the boat and ease weather helm but I never pulled it that far. Conclusion for me, my rig is too loose by all accounts here.

      Dave, I'm not sure if I'll go all the my to your tuning but I will take heed of 42 years racing J boats.

      --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@...> wrote:
      >
      > Tommy,
      >
      > I have a shoal draft. With my rig tuned as described, the back stay is off all the way most of the time except cranked in on heavy puffs going upwind. To the best of my knowledge, fractional rig J's always should have the lowers tighter than the uppers. In all my years of J racing (that would be 42 years), I have never seen a J mast given way or broken. Having the lowers tighter than the uppers allows the upper third of the mast to fall off in heavy air allowing the main to dump some load and the boat sails flatter. Again, all this is for fractional rigs only.
      >
      > Sent from my iPad
      >
      > David L. Hastings
      > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
      > Crystal River, FL 34429
      > Home: 352-794-6440
      > Cell: 315-345-2078
      >
      > On Jul 3, 2012, at 8:22 AM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@...> wrote:
      >
      > > David,
      > >
      > > Do you have a shoal draft or the 5' version?
      > >
      > > That makes sense that you are faster upwind than downwind. With the rig that tight, you are not allowing it sag or bend forward when sailing downwind. However, don't ease you backstay too much downwind though. With the lowers on hard, the mast could snap in moderate conditions. I am curious though, with the lowers tighter than the uppers, do you find yourself needing to ease the main to stay powered up when sailing upwind?
      > >
      > > JP,
      > >
      > > You definitely want to move your mast step back. That gives your main better shape and allows more draft when needed in light stuff and in chop. As far as sag, on an older gennie, you can tighten your halyard a more than with a new one. This will move the draft forward as you always fighting the draft moving aft in older sails.
      > >
      > > I am getting all pumped up about these boats and I don't have one, YET!!
      > >
      > > Tommy
      > >
      > > From: David Hastings <david.hastings@...>
      > > To: "J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com" <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 7:38 AM
      > > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
      > >
      > >
      > > John, pointing has always been my strength. My losses have always been down wind. I am not a numbers guy. I've always been a seat of the pants sailor. I've set up my boat the same as I tuned my J29 as follows:
      > >
      > > Head stay is at maximum length and mast has a slight rake. Mast step it not all the way forward. I'd guess it's about 1"ahead of center. Making sure everything is neutral and mast is centered, I pull on the back stay as hard and far as possible. Next, I tighten the uppers until the back stay begins to loosen a bit so the uppers are real tight. Now I release the back stay and the mast in really bent. Next I tighten the lowers until the prebend is pretty much gone and the mast looks as straight as possible. Now the lowers are tighter than the uppers and they are both pretty darn tight. I have never used a gauge. This has always worked well for me on the J29 for upwind performance in all conditions.
      > >
      > > As far as the sails go, I had a 155 on my J29 and seldom reduced sail but usually had a crew of 7. I have only a 135 on my J28 and It's in poor condition.
      > >
      > > I usually do best with the main strapped in hard and the boom slightly to windward of center. If higher pointing is needed in close situations, I pull the traveler over more to windward which, of course, slows the boat but usually allows me to get up and get by the problem.
      > >
      > > I'm still too new to the 28 to know whether or not this set up will work as well as it did on the 29 but so far it appears to be doing the trick so I'm sticking with it until I find the need of something different.
      > >
      > > Sent from my iPad
      > >
      > > David L. Hastings
      > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
      > > Crystal River, FL 34429
      > > Home: 352-794-6440
      > > Cell: 315-345-2078
      > >
      > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:38 AM, John Power <sailingmaster@...> wrote:
      > >
      > >>
      > >> I would be interested in some accurate tuning numbers as well, particularly a rake measurement. Currently I have my mast step max forward and about 900 on my uppers and 750 on the lowers.
      > >>
      > >> I would like to see the mast bend a little lower and wonder if som blocks at the mast partner would help.
      > >>
      > >> Also how much sag do you carry in the head stay?
      > >>
      > >> I have 4-5 inches I would say and am our Iu adjustment on the RF
      > >>
      > >> I gave raced the boat much, but I know the old genoa needs to be replaced before I can comment on pointing. I use the 135 as well the 150 overpowers the boat quickly in any breeze
      > >>
      > >> JP
      > >>
      > >> Sent from my iPhone
      > >>
      > >> On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:09 AM, John <jfws88@...> wrote:
      > >>
      > >>>
      > >>> Dave, Interesting, pointing has always been my weakness. Do you have any numbers on your rig set-up? And are you useing a 150% genny. I find I point best with the boom pointed at the leward backstay, not on center. I use a 135% genny and tune my rig to about 80% of the recommended J30 settings. When I don't do well in a race it's almost always due to looses upwind.
      > >>>
      > >>> John
      > >>> --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
      > >>> >
      > >>> > Haven't gotten my shoal draft J race ready yet so no formal racing to date but I have had several opportunities to buff with a local S2 racer who usually takes home the gold and I can beat the hell out of him upwind. I point higher and go faster and that's before getting my new main.
      > >>> >
      > >>> > Sent from my iPad
      > >>> >
      > >>> > David L. Hastings
      > >>> > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
      > >>> > Crystal River, FL 34429
      > >>> > Home: 352-794-6440
      > >>> > Cell: 315-345-2078
      > >>> >
      > >>> > On Jul 2, 2012, at 3:10 PM, "Tommy" <evenflow457@> wrote:
      > >>> >
      > >>> > > Hey J28'ers,
      > >>> > >
      > >>> > > Looking for more input on the racing performance of the shoal draft model? I want to mainly cruz, but i still have the "racing bug" urge to race around the bouys.
      > >>> > >
      > >>> > > Any thoughts??
      > >>> > >
      > >>> > > Tx Tommy
      > >>> > >
      > >>> > >
      > >>> >
      > >>> > __________________________________________________________
      > >>> > NetZero now offers 4G mobile broadband. Sign up now.
      > >>> > http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT1
      > >>> >
      > >>>
      > >
      > >
      > > __________________________________________________________
      > > 5 Diet Pills that Work
      > > 2012's Top 5 Weight Loss Pills. Updated Consumer Ratings. Free Report.
      > > DietRatings.org
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > __________________________________________________________
      > 53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
      > The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
      > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4ff300315ee2f2f7de2st51duc
      >


    • Tommy
      Roy, Do you have the Shoal draft or the Fin keel?? Tommy
      Message 2 of 25 , Jul 17, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        Roy,

        Do you have the Shoal draft or the Fin keel??

        Tommy

        --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > We have our settings at 975 uppers and 775 lowers and with the new main and mast step change are just walking away from our competition, when the wind is over 10 knots. We have the mast base fully forward this year too. The first year we had the mast back, last year it was in the middle and this year all the way forward. If the wind is 6-8 knots, we don't do so well and under 6 we do OK. Our fleet, under 30', starts 5 minutes after the over 30' and by the end of the race we have usually passed all but 2 of the big boats, they range from 30' to 42', all but one are over 35'. We have setup the boat very close to the way the J30's in Marblehead are setup, except maybe about 100 lbs or so lighter on tension. We have a fin keel, gas grill on the stern rail, dodger, cockpit table (put away under sail), anchor stowed under the starboard settee, V-berth linens all on board. We have a fair amount of headstay sag, maybe 8-10 inches in light to medium winds before we start cranking on the backstay. We reef the main at about 14-15 knots of wind and leave the 155% up, bring the leads back, crank on the back stay and pinch (and point) crazy high in the heavier winds, using the pinching to bleed off air. We have a fairly light weight crew and race with about 5-6 people in the cruising fleet, 3 are women. We have the 155 set with 3 holes showing behind the lead. We usually out point everyone by huge amounts except for an Alerion 28 and a Baby Beneteau 235. On a good day (over 10 knots) we are even boat speed with the Alerion upwind and we are always faster downwind. We usually sail in a dying breeze on Tuesday nights, it might start out around 10-12 knots and slowly craps out. Roy
        > To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
        > From: jfws88@...
        > Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 16:52:10 +0000
        > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Interesting, When Todd measured my boat for Roy's main he asked if I sail with the rig this loose. And, he really cranked the backstay for one of the measurements. I mean pully down to the hand rail tight. I'd never seem my mast bend that much. His words,"perfectly normal"
        >
        > I use the back stay alot in a breeze to help flatten the boat and ease weather helm but I never pulled it that far. Conclusion for me, my rig is too loose by all accounts here.
        >
        >
        >
        > Dave, I'm not sure if I'll go all the my to your tuning but I will take heed of 42 years racing J boats.
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Tommy,
        >
        > >
        >
        > > I have a shoal draft. With my rig tuned as described, the back stay is off all the way most of the time except cranked in on heavy puffs going upwind. To the best of my knowledge, fractional rig J's always should have the lowers tighter than the uppers. In all my years of J racing (that would be 42 years), I have never seen a J mast given way or broken. Having the lowers tighter than the uppers allows the upper third of the mast to fall off in heavy air allowing the main to dump some load and the boat sails flatter. Again, all this is for fractional rigs only.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Sent from my iPad
        >
        > >
        >
        > > David L. Hastings
        >
        > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
        >
        > > Crystal River, FL 34429
        >
        > > Home: 352-794-6440
        >
        > > Cell: 315-345-2078
        >
        > >
        >
        > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 8:22 AM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@> wrote:
        >
        > >
        >
        > > > David,
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > Do you have a shoal draft or the 5' version?
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > That makes sense that you are faster upwind than downwind. With the rig that tight, you are not allowing it sag or bend forward when sailing downwind. However, don't ease you backstay too much downwind though. With the lowers on hard, the mast could snap in moderate conditions. I am curious though, with the lowers tighter than the uppers, do you find yourself needing to ease the main to stay powered up when sailing upwind?
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > JP,
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > You definitely want to move your mast step back. That gives your main better shape and allows more draft when needed in light stuff and in chop. As far as sag, on an older gennie, you can tighten your halyard a more than with a new one. This will move the draft forward as you always fighting the draft moving aft in older sails.
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > I am getting all pumped up about these boats and I don't have one, YET!!
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > Tommy
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > From: David Hastings <david.hastings@>
        >
        > > > To: "J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com" <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
        >
        > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 7:38 AM
        >
        > > > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > John, pointing has always been my strength. My losses have always been down wind. I am not a numbers guy. I've always been a seat of the pants sailor. I've set up my boat the same as I tuned my J29 as follows:
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > Head stay is at maximum length and mast has a slight rake. Mast step it not all the way forward. I'd guess it's about 1"ahead of center. Making sure everything is neutral and mast is centered, I pull on the back stay as hard and far as possible. Next, I tighten the uppers until the back stay begins to loosen a bit so the uppers are real tight. Now I release the back stay and the mast in really bent. Next I tighten the lowers until the prebend is pretty much gone and the mast looks as straight as possible. Now the lowers are tighter than the uppers and they are both pretty darn tight. I have never used a gauge. This has always worked well for me on the J29 for upwind performance in all conditions.
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > As far as the sails go, I had a 155 on my J29 and seldom reduced sail but usually had a crew of 7. I have only a 135 on my J28 and It's in poor condition.
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > I usually do best with the main strapped in hard and the boom slightly to windward of center. If higher pointing is needed in close situations, I pull the traveler over more to windward which, of course, slows the boat but usually allows me to get up and get by the problem.
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > I'm still too new to the 28 to know whether or not this set up will work as well as it did on the 29 but so far it appears to be doing the trick so I'm sticking with it until I find the need of something different.
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > Sent from my iPad
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > David L. Hastings
        >
        > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
        >
        > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
        >
        > > > Home: 352-794-6440
        >
        > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:38 AM, John Power <sailingmaster@> wrote:
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > >>
        >
        > > >> I would be interested in some accurate tuning numbers as well, particularly a rake measurement. Currently I have my mast step max forward and about 900 on my uppers and 750 on the lowers.
        >
        > > >>
        >
        > > >> I would like to see the mast bend a little lower and wonder if som blocks at the mast partner would help.
        >
        > > >>
        >
        > > >> Also how much sag do you carry in the head stay?
        >
        > > >>
        >
        > > >> I have 4-5 inches I would say and am our Iu adjustment on the RF
        >
        > > >>
        >
        > > >> I gave raced the boat much, but I know the old genoa needs to be replaced before I can comment on pointing. I use the 135 as well the 150 overpowers the boat quickly in any breeze
        >
        > > >>
        >
        > > >> JP
        >
        > > >>
        >
        > > >> Sent from my iPhone
        >
        > > >>
        >
        > > >> On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:09 AM, John <jfws88@> wrote:
        >
        > > >>
        >
        > > >>>
        >
        > > >>> Dave, Interesting, pointing has always been my weakness. Do you have any numbers on your rig set-up? And are you useing a 150% genny. I find I point best with the boom pointed at the leward backstay, not on center. I use a 135% genny and tune my rig to about 80% of the recommended J30 settings. When I don't do well in a race it's almost always due to looses upwind.
        >
        > > >>>
        >
        > > >>> John
        >
        > > >>> --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
        >
        > > >>> >
        >
        > > >>> > Haven't gotten my shoal draft J race ready yet so no formal racing to date but I have had several opportunities to buff with a local S2 racer who usually takes home the gold and I can beat the hell out of him upwind. I point higher and go faster and that's before getting my new main.
        >
        > > >>> >
        >
        > > >>> > Sent from my iPad
        >
        > > >>> >
        >
        > > >>> > David L. Hastings
        >
        > > >>> > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
        >
        > > >>> > Crystal River, FL 34429
        >
        > > >>> > Home: 352-794-6440
        >
        > > >>> > Cell: 315-345-2078
        >
        > > >>> >
        >
        > > >>> > On Jul 2, 2012, at 3:10 PM, "Tommy" <evenflow457@> wrote:
        >
        > > >>> >
        >
        > > >>> > > Hey J28'ers,
        >
        > > >>> > >
        >
        > > >>> > > Looking for more input on the racing performance of the shoal draft model? I want to mainly cruz, but i still have the "racing bug" urge to race around the bouys.
        >
        > > >>> > >
        >
        > > >>> > > Any thoughts??
        >
        > > >>> > >
        >
        > > >>> > > Tx Tommy
        >
        > > >>> > >
        >
        > > >>> > >
        >
        > > >>> >
        >
        > > >>> > __________________________________________________________
        >
        > > >>> > NetZero now offers 4G mobile broadband. Sign up now.
        >
        > > >>> > http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT1
        >
        > > >>> >
        >
        > > >>>
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > __________________________________________________________
        >
        > > > 5 Diet Pills that Work
        >
        > > > 2012's Top 5 Weight Loss Pills. Updated Consumer Ratings. Free Report.
        >
        > > > DietRatings.org
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > __________________________________________________________
        >
        > > 53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
        >
        > > The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
        >
        > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4ff300315ee2f2f7de2st51duc
        >
        > >
        >
      • Roy Briscoe
        Fin keel. Took another 1st last night. Probably blowing around 15, started out with a reefed main, took it out just before rounding the leward mark on the
        Message 3 of 25 , Jul 18, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Fin keel.  Took another 1st last night. Probably blowing around 15, started out with a reefed main, took it out just before rounding the leward mark on the first pass around. The last 3 weeks we have been finishing up front with a 48' Hinckley Sw, their rating is 129, they are in the big boat fleet The RC changed the starting order the last 3 weeks, the small boats are starting with the big boats, we only have 4 small boats that show up on a regular basis out of the 8 that signed up, so the 2 cruising fleets start together but are scored separately.
           
          Roy
           

          To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
          From: evenflow457@...
          Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 21:40:51 +0000
          Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

           
          Roy,

          Do you have the Shoal draft or the Fin keel??

          Tommy

          --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > We have our settings at 975 uppers and 775 lowers and with the new main and mast step change are just walking away from our competition, when the wind is over 10 knots. We have the mast base fully forward this year too. The first year we had the mast back, last year it was in the middle and this year all the way forward. If the wind is 6-8 knots, we don't do so well and under 6 we do OK. Our fleet, under 30', starts 5 minutes after the over 30' and by the end of the race we have usually passed all but 2 of the big boats, they range from 30' to 42', all but one are over 35'. We have setup the boat very close to the way the J30's in Marblehead are setup, except maybe about 100 lbs or so lighter on tension. We have a fin keel, gas grill on the stern rail, dodger, cockpit table (put away under sail), anchor stowed under the starboard settee, V-berth linens all on board. We have a fair amount of headstay sag, maybe 8-10 inches in light to medium winds before we start cranking on the backstay. We reef the main at about 14-15 knots of wind and leave the 155% up, bring the leads back, crank on the back stay and pinch (and point) crazy high in the heavier winds, using the pinching to bleed off air. We have a fairly light weight crew and race with about 5-6 people in the cruising fleet, 3 are women. We have the 155 set with 3 holes showing behind the lead. We usually out point everyone by huge amounts except for an Alerion 28 and a Baby Beneteau 235. On a good day (over 10 knots) we are even boat speed with the Alerion upwind and we are always faster downwind. We usually sail in a dying breeze on Tuesday nights, it might start out around 10-12 knots and slowly craps out. Roy
          > To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
          > From: jfws88@...
          > Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 16:52:10 +0000
          > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Interesting, When Todd measured my boat for Roy's main he asked if I sail with the rig this loose. And, he really cranked the backstay for one of the measurements. I mean pully down to the hand rail tight. I'd never seem my mast bend that much. His words,"perfectly normal"
          >
          > I use the back stay alot in a breeze to help flatten the boat and ease weather helm but I never pulled it that far. Conclusion for me, my rig is too loose by all accounts here.
          >
          >
          >
          > Dave, I'm not sure if I'll go all the my to your tuning but I will take heed of 42 years racing J boats.
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
          >
          > >
          >
          > > Tommy,
          >
          > >
          >
          > > I have a shoal draft. With my rig tuned as described, the back stay is off all the way most of the time except cranked in on heavy puffs going upwind. To the best of my knowledge, fractional rig J's always should have the lowers tighter than the uppers. In all my years of J racing (that would be 42 years), I have never seen a J mast given way or broken. Having the lowers tighter than the uppers allows the upper third of the mast to fall off in heavy air allowing the main to dump some load and the boat sails flatter. Again, all this is for fractional rigs only.
          >
          > >
          >
          > > Sent from my iPad
          >
          > >
          >
          > > David L. Hastings
          >
          > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
          >
          > > Crystal River, FL 34429
          >
          > > Home: 352-794-6440
          >
          > > Cell: 315-345-2078
          >
          > >
          >
          > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 8:22 AM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@> wrote:
          >
          > >
          >
          > > > David,
          >
          > > >
          >
          > > > Do you have a shoal draft or the 5' version?
          >
          > > >
          >
          > > > That makes sense that you are faster upwind than downwind. With the rig that tight, you are not allowing it sag or bend forward when sailing downwind. However, don't ease you backstay too much downwind though. With the lowers on hard, the mast could snap in moderate conditions. I am curious though, with the lowers tighter than the uppers, do you find yourself needing to ease the main to stay powered up when sailing upwind?
          >
          > > >
          >
          > > > JP,
          >
          > > >
          >
          > > > You definitely want to move your mast step back. That gives your main better shape and allows more draft when needed in light stuff and in chop. As far as sag, on an older gennie, you can tighten your halyard a more than with a new one. This will move the draft forward as you always fighting the draft moving aft in older sails.
          >
          > > >
          >
          > > > I am getting all pumped up about these boats and I don't have one, YET!!
          >
          > > >
          >
          > > > Tommy
          >
          > > >
          >
          > > > From: David Hastings <david.hastings@>
          >
          > > > To: "J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com" <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
          >
          > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 7:38 AM
          >
          > > > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
          >
          > > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > > > John, pointing has always been my strength. My losses have always been down wind. I am not a numbers guy. I've always been a seat of the pants sailor. I've set up my boat the same as I tuned my J29 as follows:
          >
          > > >
          >
          > > > Head stay is at maximum length and mast has a slight rake. Mast step it not all the way forward. I'd guess it's about 1"ahead of center. Making sure everything is neutral and mast is centered, I pull on the back stay as hard and far as possible. Next, I tighten the uppers until the back stay begins to loosen a bit so the uppers are real tight. Now I release the back stay and the mast in really bent. Next I tighten the lowers until the prebend is pretty much gone and the mast looks as straight as possible. Now the lowers are tighter than the uppers and they are both pretty darn tight. I have never used a gauge. This has always worked well for me on the J29 for upwind performance in all conditions.
          >
          > > >
          >
          > > > As far as the sails go, I had a 155 on my J29 and seldom reduced sail but usually had a crew of 7. I have only a 135 on my J28 and It's in poor condition.
          >
          > > >
          >
          > > > I usually do best with the main strapped in hard and the boom slightly to windward of center. If higher pointing is needed in close situations, I pull the traveler over more to windward which, of course, slows the boat but usually allows me to get up and get by the problem.
          >
          > > >
          >
          > > > I'm still too new to the 28 to know whether or not this set up will work as well as it did on the 29 but so far it appears to be doing the trick so I'm sticking with it until I find the need of something different.
          >
          > > >
          >
          > > > Sent from my iPad
          >
          > > >
          >
          > > > David L. Hastings
          >
          > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
          >
          > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
          >
          > > > Home: 352-794-6440
          >
          > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
          >
          > > >
          >
          > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:38 AM, John Power <sailingmaster@> wrote:
          >
          > > >
          >
          > > >>
          >
          > > >> I would be interested in some accurate tuning numbers as well, particularly a rake measurement. Currently I have my mast step max forward and about 900 on my uppers and 750 on the lowers.
          >
          > > >>
          >
          > > >> I would like to see the mast bend a little lower and wonder if som blocks at the mast partner would help.
          >
          > > >>
          >
          > > >> Also how much sag do you carry in the head stay?
          >
          > > >>
          >
          > > >> I have 4-5 inches I would say and am our Iu adjustment on the RF
          >
          > > >>
          >
          > > >> I gave raced the boat much, but I know the old genoa needs to be replaced before I can comment on pointing. I use the 135 as well the 150 overpowers the boat quickly in any breeze
          >
          > > >>
          >
          > > >> JP
          >
          > > >>
          >
          > > >> Sent from my iPhone
          >
          > > >>
          >
          > > >> On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:09 AM, John <jfws88@> wrote:
          >
          > > >>
          >
          > > >>>
          >
          > > >>> Dave, Interesting, pointing has always been my weakness. Do you have any numbers on your rig set-up? And are you useing a 150% genny. I find I point best with the boom pointed at the leward backstay, not on center. I use a 135% genny and tune my rig to about 80% of the recommended J30 settings. When I don't do well in a race it's almost always due to looses upwind.
          >
          > > >>>
          >
          > > >>> John
          >
          > > >>> --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
          >
          > > >>> >
          >
          > > >>> > Haven't gotten my shoal draft J race ready yet so no formal racing to date but I have had several opportunities to buff with a local S2 racer who usually takes home the gold and I can beat the hell out of him upwind. I point higher and go faster and that's before getting my new main.
          >
          > > >>> >
          >
          > > >>> > Sent from my iPad
          >
          > > >>> >
          >
          > > >>> > David L. Hastings
          >
          > > >>> > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
          >
          > > >>> > Crystal River, FL 34429
          >
          > > >>> > Home: 352-794-6440
          >
          > > >>> > Cell: 315-345-2078
          >
          > > >>> >
          >
          > > >>> > On Jul 2, 2012, at 3:10 PM, "Tommy" <evenflow457@> wrote:
          >
          > > >>> >
          >
          > > >>> > > Hey J28'ers,
          >
          > > >>> > >
          >
          > > >>> > > Looking for more input on the racing performance of the shoal draft model? I want to mainly cruz, but i still have the "racing bug" urge to race around the bouys.
          >
          > > >>> > >
          >
          > > >>> > > Any thoughts??
          >
          > > >>> > >
          >
          > > >>> > > Tx Tommy
          >
          > > >>> > >
          >
          > > >>> > >
          >
          > > >>> >
          >
          > > >>> > __________________________________________________________
          >
          > > >>> > NetZero now offers 4G mobile broadband. Sign up now.
          >
          > > >>> > http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT1
          >
          > > >>> >
          >
          > > >>>
          >
          > > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > > > __________________________________________________________
          >
          > > > 5 Diet Pills that Work
          >
          > > > 2012's Top 5 Weight Loss Pills. Updated Consumer Ratings. Free Report.
          >
          > > > DietRatings.org
          >
          > > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > > >
          >
          > > __________________________________________________________
          >
          > > 53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
          >
          > > The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
          >
          > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4ff300315ee2f2f7de2st51duc
          >
          > >
          >


        • Tommy
          I sure was hoping you would have said Shoal Draft! That is a pretty sweet finish though. These boats (at least the Fin Keels) sail well to their rating.
          Message 4 of 25 , Jul 30, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            I sure was hoping you would have said Shoal Draft! That is a pretty sweet finish though. These boats (at least the Fin Keels) sail well to their rating.

            Tommy

            --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Fin keel. Took another 1st last night. Probably blowing around 15, started out with a reefed main, took it out just before rounding the leward mark on the first pass around. The last 3 weeks we have been finishing up front with a 48' Hinckley Sw, their rating is 129, they are in the big boat fleet The RC changed the starting order the last 3 weeks, the small boats are starting with the big boats, we only have 4 small boats that show up on a regular basis out of the 8 that signed up, so the 2 cruising fleets start together but are scored separately. Roy
            > To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
            > From: evenflow457@...
            > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 21:40:51 +0000
            > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Roy,
            >
            >
            >
            > Do you have the Shoal draft or the Fin keel??
            >
            >
            >
            > Tommy
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@> wrote:
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > We have our settings at 975 uppers and 775 lowers and with the new main and mast step change are just walking away from our competition, when the wind is over 10 knots. We have the mast base fully forward this year too. The first year we had the mast back, last year it was in the middle and this year all the way forward. If the wind is 6-8 knots, we don't do so well and under 6 we do OK. Our fleet, under 30', starts 5 minutes after the over 30' and by the end of the race we have usually passed all but 2 of the big boats, they range from 30' to 42', all but one are over 35'. We have setup the boat very close to the way the J30's in Marblehead are setup, except maybe about 100 lbs or so lighter on tension. We have a fin keel, gas grill on the stern rail, dodger, cockpit table (put away under sail), anchor stowed under the starboard settee, V-berth linens all on board. We have a fair amount of headstay sag, maybe 8-10 inches in light to medium winds before we start cranking on the backstay. We reef the main at about 14-15 knots of wind and leave the 155% up, bring the leads back, crank on the back stay and pinch (and point) crazy high in the heavier winds, using the pinching to bleed off air. We have a fairly light weight crew and race with about 5-6 people in the cruising fleet, 3 are women. We have the 155 set with 3 holes showing behind the lead. We usually out point everyone by huge amounts except for an Alerion 28 and a Baby Beneteau 235. On a good day (over 10 knots) we are even boat speed with the Alerion upwind and we are always faster downwind. We usually sail in a dying breeze on Tuesday nights, it might start out around 10-12 knots and slowly craps out. Roy
            >
            > > To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > > From: jfws88@
            >
            > > Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 16:52:10 +0000
            >
            > > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > Interesting, When Todd measured my boat for Roy's main he asked if I sail with the rig this loose. And, he really cranked the backstay for one of the measurements. I mean pully down to the hand rail tight. I'd never seem my mast bend that much. His words,"perfectly normal"
            >
            > >
            >
            > > I use the back stay alot in a breeze to help flatten the boat and ease weather helm but I never pulled it that far. Conclusion for me, my rig is too loose by all accounts here.
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > Dave, I'm not sure if I'll go all the my to your tuning but I will take heed of 42 years racing J boats.
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > Tommy,
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > I have a shoal draft. With my rig tuned as described, the back stay is off all the way most of the time except cranked in on heavy puffs going upwind. To the best of my knowledge, fractional rig J's always should have the lowers tighter than the uppers. In all my years of J racing (that would be 42 years), I have never seen a J mast given way or broken. Having the lowers tighter than the uppers allows the upper third of the mast to fall off in heavy air allowing the main to dump some load and the boat sails flatter. Again, all this is for fractional rigs only.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > Sent from my iPad
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > David L. Hastings
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > Home: 352-794-6440
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 8:22 AM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@> wrote:
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > > David,
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > > Do you have a shoal draft or the 5' version?
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > > That makes sense that you are faster upwind than downwind. With the rig that tight, you are not allowing it sag or bend forward when sailing downwind. However, don't ease you backstay too much downwind though. With the lowers on hard, the mast could snap in moderate conditions. I am curious though, with the lowers tighter than the uppers, do you find yourself needing to ease the main to stay powered up when sailing upwind?
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > > JP,
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > > You definitely want to move your mast step back. That gives your main better shape and allows more draft when needed in light stuff and in chop. As far as sag, on an older gennie, you can tighten your halyard a more than with a new one. This will move the draft forward as you always fighting the draft moving aft in older sails.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > > I am getting all pumped up about these boats and I don't have one, YET!!
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > > Tommy
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > > From: David Hastings <david.hastings@>
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > > To: "J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com" <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 7:38 AM
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > > John, pointing has always been my strength. My losses have always been down wind. I am not a numbers guy. I've always been a seat of the pants sailor. I've set up my boat the same as I tuned my J29 as follows:
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > > Head stay is at maximum length and mast has a slight rake. Mast step it not all the way forward. I'd guess it's about 1"ahead of center. Making sure everything is neutral and mast is centered, I pull on the back stay as hard and far as possible. Next, I tighten the uppers until the back stay begins to loosen a bit so the uppers are real tight. Now I release the back stay and the mast in really bent. Next I tighten the lowers until the prebend is pretty much gone and the mast looks as straight as possible. Now the lowers are tighter than the uppers and they are both pretty darn tight. I have never used a gauge. This has always worked well for me on the J29 for upwind performance in all conditions.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > > As far as the sails go, I had a 155 on my J29 and seldom reduced sail but usually had a crew of 7. I have only a 135 on my J28 and It's in poor condition.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > > I usually do best with the main strapped in hard and the boom slightly to windward of center. If higher pointing is needed in close situations, I pull the traveler over more to windward which, of course, slows the boat but usually allows me to get up and get by the problem.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > > I'm still too new to the 28 to know whether or not this set up will work as well as it did on the 29 but so far it appears to be doing the trick so I'm sticking with it until I find the need of something different.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > > Sent from my iPad
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > > David L. Hastings
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > > Home: 352-794-6440
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:38 AM, John Power <sailingmaster@> wrote:
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >> I would be interested in some accurate tuning numbers as well, particularly a rake measurement. Currently I have my mast step max forward and about 900 on my uppers and 750 on the lowers.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >> I would like to see the mast bend a little lower and wonder if som blocks at the mast partner would help.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >> Also how much sag do you carry in the head stay?
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >> I have 4-5 inches I would say and am our Iu adjustment on the RF
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >> I gave raced the boat much, but I know the old genoa needs to be replaced before I can comment on pointing. I use the 135 as well the 150 overpowers the boat quickly in any breeze
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >> JP
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >> Sent from my iPhone
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >> On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:09 AM, John <jfws88@> wrote:
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>>
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>> Dave, Interesting, pointing has always been my weakness. Do you have any numbers on your rig set-up? And are you useing a 150% genny. I find I point best with the boom pointed at the leward backstay, not on center. I use a 135% genny and tune my rig to about 80% of the recommended J30 settings. When I don't do well in a race it's almost always due to looses upwind.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>>
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>> John
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>> --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>> >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>> > Haven't gotten my shoal draft J race ready yet so no formal racing to date but I have had several opportunities to buff with a local S2 racer who usually takes home the gold and I can beat the hell out of him upwind. I point higher and go faster and that's before getting my new main.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>> >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>> > Sent from my iPad
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>> >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>> > David L. Hastings
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>> > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>> > Crystal River, FL 34429
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>> > Home: 352-794-6440
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>> > Cell: 315-345-2078
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>> >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>> > On Jul 2, 2012, at 3:10 PM, "Tommy" <evenflow457@> wrote:
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>> >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>> > > Hey J28'ers,
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>> > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>> > > Looking for more input on the racing performance of the shoal draft model? I want to mainly cruz, but i still have the "racing bug" urge to race around the bouys.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>> > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>> > > Any thoughts??
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>> > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>> > > Tx Tommy
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>> > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>> > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>> >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>> > __________________________________________________________
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>> > NetZero now offers 4G mobile broadband. Sign up now.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>> > http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT1
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>> >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >>>
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > > __________________________________________________________
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > > 5 Diet Pills that Work
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > > 2012's Top 5 Weight Loss Pills. Updated Consumer Ratings. Free Report.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > > DietRatings.org
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > __________________________________________________________
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > 53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
            >
            > >
            >
            > > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4ff300315ee2f2f7de2st51duc
            >
            > >
            >
            > > >
            >
            > >
            >
          • J Smith
            The J/28 has a higher center of gravity than other comparable J s of that era. The reason being they need to get accommodation volume into the hull on a 24
            Message 5 of 25 , Jul 30, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              The J/28 has a higher center of gravity than other comparable J's of that era. The reason being they need to get accommodation volume into the hull on a 24' LWL. The deep fin keel, also uncommon on the cruising hulls during the time of the UFO keels, helped mitigate some the performance hit. Obviously, the SD gives a similar righting moment, at the expense of windward performance and (imho)...stiffness. I would think very hard before I bought a SD J/28. If you sail in skinny water....it may not be possible. But then I'd be looking at a J/95 or J/108.
              From: "Tommy" <evenflow457@...>
              Sender: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 17:00:09 -0000
              To: <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
              ReplyTo: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

               

              I sure was hoping you would have said Shoal Draft! That is a pretty sweet finish though. These boats (at least the Fin Keels) sail well to their rating.

              Tommy

              --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Fin keel. Took another 1st last night. Probably blowing around 15, started out with a reefed main, took it out just before rounding the leward mark on the first pass around. The last 3 weeks we have been finishing up front with a 48' Hinckley Sw, their rating is 129, they are in the big boat fleet The RC changed the starting order the last 3 weeks, the small boats are starting with the big boats, we only have 4 small boats that show up on a regular basis out of the 8 that signed up, so the 2 cruising fleets start together but are scored separately. Roy
              > To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
              > From: evenflow457@...
              > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 21:40:51 +0000
              > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Roy,
              >
              >
              >
              > Do you have the Shoal draft or the Fin keel??
              >
              >
              >
              > Tommy
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@> wrote:
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > We have our settings at 975 uppers and 775 lowers and with the new main and mast step change are just walking away from our competition, when the wind is over 10 knots. We have the mast base fully forward this year too. The first year we had the mast back, last year it was in the middle and this year all the way forward. If the wind is 6-8 knots, we don't do so well and under 6 we do OK. Our fleet, under 30', starts 5 minutes after the over 30' and by the end of the race we have usually passed all but 2 of the big boats, they range from 30' to 42', all but one are over 35'. We have setup the boat very close to the way the J30's in Marblehead are setup, except maybe about 100 lbs or so lighter on tension. We have a fin keel, gas grill on the stern rail, dodger, cockpit table (put away under sail), anchor stowed under the starboard settee, V-berth linens all on board. We have a fair amount of headstay sag, maybe 8-10 inches in light to medium winds before we start cranking on the backstay. We reef the main at about 14-15 knots of wind and leave the 155% up, bring the leads back, crank on the back stay and pinch (and point) crazy high in the heavier winds, using the pinching to bleed off air. We have a fairly light weight crew and race with about 5-6 people in the cruising fleet, 3 are women. We have the 155 set with 3 holes showing behind the lead. We usually out point everyone by huge amounts except for an Alerion 28 and a Baby Beneteau 235. On a good day (over 10 knots) we are even boat speed with the Alerion upwind and we are always faster downwind. We usually sail in a dying breeze on Tuesday nights, it might start out around 10-12 knots and slowly craps out. Roy
              >
              > > To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > > From: jfws88@
              >
              > > Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 16:52:10 +0000
              >
              > > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
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              >
              > > Interesting, When Todd measured my boat for Roy's main he asked if I sail with the rig this loose. And, he really cranked the backstay for one of the measurements. I mean pully down to the hand rail tight. I'd never seem my mast bend that much. His words,"perfectly normal"
              >
              > >
              >
              > > I use the back stay alot in a breeze to help flatten the boat and ease weather helm but I never pulled it that far. Conclusion for me, my rig is too loose by all accounts here.
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Dave, I'm not sure if I'll go all the my to your tuning but I will take heed of 42 years racing J boats.
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > Tommy,
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > I have a shoal draft. With my rig tuned as described, the back stay is off all the way most of the time except cranked in on heavy puffs going upwind. To the best of my knowledge, fractional rig J's always should have the lowers tighter than the uppers. In all my years of J racing (that would be 42 years), I have never seen a J mast given way or broken. Having the lowers tighter than the uppers allows the upper third of the mast to fall off in heavy air allowing the main to dump some load and the boat sails flatter. Again, all this is for fractional rigs only.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > Sent from my iPad
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > David L. Hastings
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > Home: 352-794-6440
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 8:22 AM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@> wrote:
              >
              > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > > David,
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > > Do you have a shoal draft or the 5' version?
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > > That makes sense that you are faster upwind than downwind. With the rig that tight, you are not allowing it sag or bend forward when sailing downwind. However, don't ease you backstay too much downwind though. With the lowers on hard, the mast could snap in moderate conditions. I am curious though, with the lowers tighter than the uppers, do you find yourself needing to ease the main to stay powered up when sailing upwind?
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > > JP,
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > > You definitely want to move your mast step back. That gives your main better shape and allows more draft when needed in light stuff and in chop. As far as sag, on an older gennie, you can tighten your halyard a more than with a new one. This will move the draft forward as you always fighting the draft moving aft in older sails.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > > I am getting all pumped up about these boats and I don't have one, YET!!
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > > Tommy
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > > From: David Hastings <david.hastings@>
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > > To: "J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com" <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 7:38 AM
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > > John, pointing has always been my strength. My losses have always been down wind. I am not a numbers guy. I've always been a seat of the pants sailor. I've set up my boat the same as I tuned my J29 as follows:
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > > Head stay is at maximum length and mast has a slight rake. Mast step it not all the way forward. I'd guess it's about 1"ahead of center. Making sure everything is neutral and mast is centered, I pull on the back stay as hard and far as possible. Next, I tighten the uppers until the back stay begins to loosen a bit so the uppers are real tight. Now I release the back stay and the mast in really bent. Next I tighten the lowers until the prebend is pretty much gone and the mast looks as straight as possible. Now the lowers are tighter than the uppers and they are both pretty darn tight. I have never used a gauge. This has always worked well for me on the J29 for upwind performance in all conditions.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > > As far as the sails go, I had a 155 on my J29 and seldom reduced sail but usually had a crew of 7. I have only a 135 on my J28 and It's in poor condition.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > > I usually do best with the main strapped in hard and the boom slightly to windward of center. If higher pointing is needed in close situations, I pull the traveler over more to windward which, of course, slows the boat but usually allows me to get up and get by the problem.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > > I'm still too new to the 28 to know whether or not this set up will work as well as it did on the 29 but so far it appears to be doing the trick so I'm sticking with it until I find the need of something different.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > > Sent from my iPad
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > > David L. Hastings
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > > Home: 352-794-6440
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:38 AM, John Power <sailingmaster@> wrote:
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >> I would be interested in some accurate tuning numbers as well, particularly a rake measurement. Currently I have my mast step max forward and about 900 on my uppers and 750 on the lowers.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >> I would like to see the mast bend a little lower and wonder if som blocks at the mast partner would help.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >> Also how much sag do you carry in the head stay?
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >> I have 4-5 inches I would say and am our Iu adjustment on the RF
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >> I gave raced the boat much, but I know the old genoa needs to be replaced before I can comment on pointing. I use the 135 as well the 150 overpowers the boat quickly in any breeze
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >> JP
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >> Sent from my iPhone
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >> On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:09 AM, John <jfws88@> wrote:
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>>
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>> Dave, Interesting, pointing has always been my weakness. Do you have any numbers on your rig set-up? And are you useing a 150% genny. I find I point best with the boom pointed at the leward backstay, not on center. I use a 135% genny and tune my rig to about 80% of the recommended J30 settings. When I don't do well in a race it's almost always due to looses upwind.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>>
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>> John
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>> --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>> >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>> > Haven't gotten my shoal draft J race ready yet so no formal racing to date but I have had several opportunities to buff with a local S2 racer who usually takes home the gold and I can beat the hell out of him upwind. I point higher and go faster and that's before getting my new main.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>> >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>> > Sent from my iPad
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>> >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>> > David L. Hastings
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>> > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>> > Crystal River, FL 34429
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>> > Home: 352-794-6440
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>> > Cell: 315-345-2078
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>> >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>> > On Jul 2, 2012, at 3:10 PM, "Tommy" <evenflow457@> wrote:
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>> >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>> > > Hey J28'ers,
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>> > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>> > > Looking for more input on the racing performance of the shoal draft model? I want to mainly cruz, but i still have the "racing bug" urge to race around the bouys.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>> > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>> > > Any thoughts??
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>> > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>> > > Tx Tommy
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>> > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>> > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>> >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>> > __________________________________________________________
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>> > NetZero now offers 4G mobile broadband. Sign up now.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>> > http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT1
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>> >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >>>
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > > __________________________________________________________
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > > 5 Diet Pills that Work
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > > 2012's Top 5 Weight Loss Pills. Updated Consumer Ratings. Free Report.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > > DietRatings.org
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > __________________________________________________________
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > 53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
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              >

            • Tommy Koe
              What stiffness are you referring too?  Stiffness in the hull or stiffness translated into the rig?  How does the shoal draft version affect the stiffness?? 
              Message 6 of 25 , Jul 30, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                What stiffness are you referring too?  Stiffness in the hull or stiffness translated into the rig?  How does the shoal draft version affect the stiffness??  Looking at the PHRF ratings, the hit does not seem that substantial.  I would expect some type of weather performance inhibited by the shoal model, but it is only a foot.  Also, by the specs that I have found, they still maintain the 3000lbs of weight in the keel.  (don't know how unless the keel is fatter)  Which would affect the lift of hydrodynamics in the keel. 
                 
                I am very interested in your findings as I am looking at a SD J/28.  My local waters can be shallow in some areas which makes the SD version a viable option.  However, if I am looking at a serious degradation in performance and the boat can never sail to her rating, then it doesn't make sense to spend the kind of money for a boat that won't ever sail to her rating.  Might as well get a Catalina 30.  ugh!
                 
                Thanks!!! 
                 
                Tommy

                From: J Smith <jason3317@...>
                To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 1:19 PM
                Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

                 
                The J/28 has a higher center of gravity than other comparable J's of that era. The reason being they need to get accommodation volume into the hull on a 24' LWL. The deep fin keel, also uncommon on the cruising hulls during the time of the UFO keels, helped mitigate some the performance hit. Obviously, the SD gives a similar righting moment, at the expense of windward performance and (imho)...stiffness. I would think very hard before I bought a SD J/28. If you sail in skinny water....it may not be possible. But then I'd be looking at a J/95 or J/108.
                From: "Tommy" <evenflow457@...>
                Sender: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 17:00:09 -0000
                To: <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
                ReplyTo: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

                 
                I sure was hoping you would have said Shoal Draft! That is a pretty sweet finish though. These boats (at least the Fin Keels) sail well to their rating.

                Tommy

                --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Fin keel. Took another 1st last night. Probably blowing around 15, started out with a reefed main, took it out just before rounding the leward mark on the first pass around. The last 3 weeks we have been finishing up front with a 48' Hinckley Sw, their rating is 129, they are in the big boat fleet The RC changed the starting order the last 3 weeks, the small boats are starting with the big boats, we only have 4 small boats that show up on a regular basis out of the 8 that signed up, so the 2 cruising fleets start together but are scored separately. Roy
                > To: mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com
                > From: evenflow457@...
                > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 21:40:51 +0000
                > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Roy,
                >
                >
                >
                > Do you have the Shoal draft or the Fin keel??
                >
                >
                >
                > Tommy
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@> wrote:
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > We have our settings at 975 uppers and 775 lowers and with the new main and mast step change are just walking away from our competition, when the wind is over 10 knots. We have the mast base fully forward this year too. The first year we had the mast back, last year it was in the middle and this year all the way forward. If the wind is 6-8 knots, we don't do so well and under 6 we do OK. Our fleet, under 30', starts 5 minutes after the over 30' and by the end of the race we have usually passed all but 2 of the big boats, they range from 30' to 42', all but one are over 35'. We have setup the boat very close to the way the J30's in Marblehead are setup, except maybe about 100 lbs or so lighter on tension. We have a fin keel, gas grill on the stern rail, dodger, cockpit table (put away under sail), anchor stowed under the starboard settee, V-berth linens all on board. We have a fair amount of headstay sag, maybe 8-10 inches in light to medium winds before we start cranking on the backstay. We reef the main at about 14-15 knots of wind and leave the 155% up, bring the leads back, crank on the back stay and pinch (and point) crazy high in the heavier winds, using the pinching to bleed off air. We have a fairly light weight crew and race with about 5-6 people in the cruising fleet, 3 are women. We have the 155 set with 3 holes showing behind the lead. We usually out point everyone by huge amounts except for an Alerion 28 and a Baby Beneteau 235. On a good day (over 10 knots) we are even boat speed with the Alerion upwind and we are always faster downwind. We usually sail in a dying breeze on Tuesday nights, it might start out around 10-12 knots and slowly craps out. Roy
                >
                > > To: mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com
                >
                > > From: jfws88@
                >
                > > Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 16:52:10 +0000
                >
                > > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
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                > >
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                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Interesting, When Todd measured my boat for Roy's main he asked if I sail with the rig this loose. And, he really cranked the backstay for one of the measurements. I mean pully down to the hand rail tight. I'd never seem my mast bend that much. His words,"perfectly normal"
                >
                > >
                >
                > > I use the back stay alot in a breeze to help flatten the boat and ease weather helm but I never pulled it that far. Conclusion for me, my rig is too loose by all accounts here.
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Dave, I'm not sure if I'll go all the my to your tuning but I will take heed of 42 years racing J boats.
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > Tommy,
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > I have a shoal draft. With my rig tuned as described, the back stay is off all the way most of the time except cranked in on heavy puffs going upwind. To the best of my knowledge, fractional rig J's always should have the lowers tighter than the uppers. In all my years of J racing (that would be 42 years), I have never seen a J mast given way or broken. Having the lowers tighter than the uppers allows the upper third of the mast to fall off in heavy air allowing the main to dump some load and the boat sails flatter. Again, all this is for fractional rigs only.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > Sent from my iPad
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > David L. Hastings
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > Home: 352-794-6440
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 8:22 AM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@> wrote:
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > David,
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > Do you have a shoal draft or the 5' version?
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > That makes sense that you are faster upwind than downwind. With the rig that tight, you are not allowing it sag or bend forward when sailing downwind. However, don't ease you backstay too much downwind though. With the lowers on hard, the mast could snap in moderate conditions. I am curious though, with the lowers tighter than the uppers, do you find yourself needing to ease the main to stay powered up when sailing upwind?
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > JP,
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > You definitely want to move your mast step back. That gives your main better shape and allows more draft when needed in light stuff and in chop. As far as sag, on an older gennie, you can tighten your halyard a more than with a new one. This will move the draft forward as you always fighting the draft moving aft in older sails.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > I am getting all pumped up about these boats and I don't have one, YET!!
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > Tommy
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > From: David Hastings <david.hastings@>
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > To: "mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com>
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 7:38 AM
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > John, pointing has always been my strength. My losses have always been down wind. I am not a numbers guy. I've always been a seat of the pants sailor. I've set up my boat the same as I tuned my J29 as follows:
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > Head stay is at maximum length and mast has a slight rake. Mast step it not all the way forward. I'd guess it's about 1"ahead of center. Making sure everything is neutral and mast is centered, I pull on the back stay as hard and far as possible. Next, I tighten the uppers until the back stay begins to loosen a bit so the uppers are real tight. Now I release the back stay and the mast in really bent. Next I tighten the lowers until the prebend is pretty much gone and the mast looks as straight as possible. Now the lowers are tighter than the uppers and they are both pretty darn tight. I have never used a gauge. This has always worked well for me on the J29 for upwind performance in all conditions.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > As far as the sails go, I had a 155 on my J29 and seldom reduced sail but usually had a crew of 7. I have only a 135 on my J28 and It's in poor condition.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > I usually do best with the main strapped in hard and the boom slightly to windward of center. If higher pointing is needed in close situations, I pull the traveler over more to windward which, of course, slows the boat but usually allows me to get up and get by the problem.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > I'm still too new to the 28 to know whether or not this set up will work as well as it did on the 29 but so far it appears to be doing the trick so I'm sticking with it until I find the need of something different.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > Sent from my iPad
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > David L. Hastings
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > Home: 352-794-6440
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:38 AM, John Power <sailingmaster@> wrote:
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >> I would be interested in some accurate tuning numbers as well, particularly a rake measurement. Currently I have my mast step max forward and about 900 on my uppers and 750 on the lowers.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >> I would like to see the mast bend a little lower and wonder if som blocks at the mast partner would help.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >> Also how much sag do you carry in the head stay?
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >> I have 4-5 inches I would say and am our Iu adjustment on the RF
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >> I gave raced the boat much, but I know the old genoa needs to be replaced before I can comment on pointing. I use the 135 as well the 150 overpowers the boat quickly in any breeze
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >> JP
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >> Sent from my iPhone
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >> On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:09 AM, John <jfws88@> wrote:
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>>
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>> Dave, Interesting, pointing has always been my weakness. Do you have any numbers on your rig set-up? And are you useing a 150% genny. I find I point best with the boom pointed at the leward backstay, not on center. I use a 135% genny and tune my rig to about 80% of the recommended J30 settings. When I don't do well in a race it's almost always due to looses upwind.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>>
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>> John
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>> --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>> >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>> > Haven't gotten my shoal draft J race ready yet so no formal racing to date but I have had several opportunities to buff with a local S2 racer who usually takes home the gold and I can beat the hell out of him upwind. I point higher and go faster and that's before getting my new main.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>> >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>> > Sent from my iPad
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>> >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>> > David L. Hastings
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>> > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>> > Crystal River, FL 34429
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>> > Home: 352-794-6440
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>> > Cell: 315-345-2078
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>> >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>> > On Jul 2, 2012, at 3:10 PM, "Tommy" <evenflow457@> wrote:
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>> >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>> > > Hey J28'ers,
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>> > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>> > > Looking for more input on the racing performance of the shoal draft model? I want to mainly cruz, but i still have the "racing bug" urge to race around the bouys.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>> > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>> > > Any thoughts??
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>> > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>> > > Tx Tommy
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>> > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>> > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>> >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>> > __________________________________________________________
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>> > NetZero now offers 4G mobile broadband. Sign up now.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>> > http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT1
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>> >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >>>
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > __________________________________________________________
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > 5 Diet Pills that Work
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > 2012's Top 5 Weight Loss Pills. Updated Consumer Ratings. Free Report.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > > DietRatings.org
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > __________________________________________________________
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > 53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4ff300315ee2f2f7de2st51duc
                >
                > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > >
                >



              • Tommy Koe
                BTW Jason, do you won a J/28?  or have you sailed on them at all?????? ________________________________ From: J Smith To:
                Message 7 of 25 , Jul 30, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  BTW Jason, do you won a J/28?  or have you sailed on them at all??????

                  From: J Smith <jason3317@...>
                  To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 1:19 PM
                  Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

                   
                  The J/28 has a higher center of gravity than other comparable J's of that era. The reason being they need to get accommodation volume into the hull on a 24' LWL. The deep fin keel, also uncommon on the cruising hulls during the time of the UFO keels, helped mitigate some the performance hit. Obviously, the SD gives a similar righting moment, at the expense of windward performance and (imho)...stiffness. I would think very hard before I bought a SD J/28. If you sail in skinny water....it may not be possible. But then I'd be looking at a J/95 or J/108.
                  From: "Tommy" <evenflow457@...>
                  Sender: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 17:00:09 -0000
                  To: <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
                  ReplyTo: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

                   
                  I sure was hoping you would have said Shoal Draft! That is a pretty sweet finish though. These boats (at least the Fin Keels) sail well to their rating.

                  Tommy

                  --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Fin keel. Took another 1st last night. Probably blowing around 15, started out with a reefed main, took it out just before rounding the leward mark on the first pass around. The last 3 weeks we have been finishing up front with a 48' Hinckley Sw, their rating is 129, they are in the big boat fleet The RC changed the starting order the last 3 weeks, the small boats are starting with the big boats, we only have 4 small boats that show up on a regular basis out of the 8 that signed up, so the 2 cruising fleets start together but are scored separately. Roy
                  > To: mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com
                  > From: evenflow457@...
                  > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 21:40:51 +0000
                  > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Roy,
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Do you have the Shoal draft or the Fin keel??
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Tommy
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > We have our settings at 975 uppers and 775 lowers and with the new main and mast step change are just walking away from our competition, when the wind is over 10 knots. We have the mast base fully forward this year too. The first year we had the mast back, last year it was in the middle and this year all the way forward. If the wind is 6-8 knots, we don't do so well and under 6 we do OK. Our fleet, under 30', starts 5 minutes after the over 30' and by the end of the race we have usually passed all but 2 of the big boats, they range from 30' to 42', all but one are over 35'. We have setup the boat very close to the way the J30's in Marblehead are setup, except maybe about 100 lbs or so lighter on tension. We have a fin keel, gas grill on the stern rail, dodger, cockpit table (put away under sail), anchor stowed under the starboard settee, V-berth linens all on board. We have a fair amount of headstay sag, maybe 8-10 inches in light to medium winds before we start cranking on the backstay. We reef the main at about 14-15 knots of wind and leave the 155% up, bring the leads back, crank on the back stay and pinch (and point) crazy high in the heavier winds, using the pinching to bleed off air. We have a fairly light weight crew and race with about 5-6 people in the cruising fleet, 3 are women. We have the 155 set with 3 holes showing behind the lead. We usually out point everyone by huge amounts except for an Alerion 28 and a Baby Beneteau 235. On a good day (over 10 knots) we are even boat speed with the Alerion upwind and we are always faster downwind. We usually sail in a dying breeze on Tuesday nights, it might start out around 10-12 knots and slowly craps out. Roy
                  >
                  > > To: mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > > From: jfws88@
                  >
                  > > Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 16:52:10 +0000
                  >
                  > > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > Interesting, When Todd measured my boat for Roy's main he asked if I sail with the rig this loose. And, he really cranked the backstay for one of the measurements. I mean pully down to the hand rail tight. I'd never seem my mast bend that much. His words,"perfectly normal"
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > I use the back stay alot in a breeze to help flatten the boat and ease weather helm but I never pulled it that far. Conclusion for me, my rig is too loose by all accounts here.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > Dave, I'm not sure if I'll go all the my to your tuning but I will take heed of 42 years racing J boats.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > Tommy,
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > I have a shoal draft. With my rig tuned as described, the back stay is off all the way most of the time except cranked in on heavy puffs going upwind. To the best of my knowledge, fractional rig J's always should have the lowers tighter than the uppers. In all my years of J racing (that would be 42 years), I have never seen a J mast given way or broken. Having the lowers tighter than the uppers allows the upper third of the mast to fall off in heavy air allowing the main to dump some load and the boat sails flatter. Again, all this is for fractional rigs only.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > Sent from my iPad
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > David L. Hastings
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > Home: 352-794-6440
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 8:22 AM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > David,
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > Do you have a shoal draft or the 5' version?
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > That makes sense that you are faster upwind than downwind. With the rig that tight, you are not allowing it sag or bend forward when sailing downwind. However, don't ease you backstay too much downwind though. With the lowers on hard, the mast could snap in moderate conditions. I am curious though, with the lowers tighter than the uppers, do you find yourself needing to ease the main to stay powered up when sailing upwind?
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > JP,
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > You definitely want to move your mast step back. That gives your main better shape and allows more draft when needed in light stuff and in chop. As far as sag, on an older gennie, you can tighten your halyard a more than with a new one. This will move the draft forward as you always fighting the draft moving aft in older sails.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > I am getting all pumped up about these boats and I don't have one, YET!!
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > Tommy
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > From: David Hastings <david.hastings@>
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > To: "mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com>
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 7:38 AM
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > John, pointing has always been my strength. My losses have always been down wind. I am not a numbers guy. I've always been a seat of the pants sailor. I've set up my boat the same as I tuned my J29 as follows:
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > Head stay is at maximum length and mast has a slight rake. Mast step it not all the way forward. I'd guess it's about 1"ahead of center. Making sure everything is neutral and mast is centered, I pull on the back stay as hard and far as possible. Next, I tighten the uppers until the back stay begins to loosen a bit so the uppers are real tight. Now I release the back stay and the mast in really bent. Next I tighten the lowers until the prebend is pretty much gone and the mast looks as straight as possible. Now the lowers are tighter than the uppers and they are both pretty darn tight. I have never used a gauge. This has always worked well for me on the J29 for upwind performance in all conditions.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > As far as the sails go, I had a 155 on my J29 and seldom reduced sail but usually had a crew of 7. I have only a 135 on my J28 and It's in poor condition.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > I usually do best with the main strapped in hard and the boom slightly to windward of center. If higher pointing is needed in close situations, I pull the traveler over more to windward which, of course, slows the boat but usually allows me to get up and get by the problem.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > I'm still too new to the 28 to know whether or not this set up will work as well as it did on the 29 but so far it appears to be doing the trick so I'm sticking with it until I find the need of something different.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > Sent from my iPad
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > David L. Hastings
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > Home: 352-794-6440
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:38 AM, John Power <sailingmaster@> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >> I would be interested in some accurate tuning numbers as well, particularly a rake measurement. Currently I have my mast step max forward and about 900 on my uppers and 750 on the lowers.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >> I would like to see the mast bend a little lower and wonder if som blocks at the mast partner would help.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >> Also how much sag do you carry in the head stay?
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >> I have 4-5 inches I would say and am our Iu adjustment on the RF
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >> I gave raced the boat much, but I know the old genoa needs to be replaced before I can comment on pointing. I use the 135 as well the 150 overpowers the boat quickly in any breeze
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >> JP
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >> Sent from my iPhone
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >> On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:09 AM, John <jfws88@> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>>
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> Dave, Interesting, pointing has always been my weakness. Do you have any numbers on your rig set-up? And are you useing a 150% genny. I find I point best with the boom pointed at the leward backstay, not on center. I use a 135% genny and tune my rig to about 80% of the recommended J30 settings. When I don't do well in a race it's almost always due to looses upwind.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>>
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> John
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > Haven't gotten my shoal draft J race ready yet so no formal racing to date but I have had several opportunities to buff with a local S2 racer who usually takes home the gold and I can beat the hell out of him upwind. I point higher and go faster and that's before getting my new main.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > Sent from my iPad
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > David L. Hastings
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > Crystal River, FL 34429
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > Home: 352-794-6440
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > Cell: 315-345-2078
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > On Jul 2, 2012, at 3:10 PM, "Tommy" <evenflow457@> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > > Hey J28'ers,
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > > Looking for more input on the racing performance of the shoal draft model? I want to mainly cruz, but i still have the "racing bug" urge to race around the bouys.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > > Any thoughts??
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > > Tx Tommy
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > __________________________________________________________
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > NetZero now offers 4G mobile broadband. Sign up now.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT1
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>>
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > __________________________________________________________
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > 5 Diet Pills that Work
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > 2012's Top 5 Weight Loss Pills. Updated Consumer Ratings. Free Report.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > DietRatings.org
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > __________________________________________________________
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > 53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4ff300315ee2f2f7de2st51duc
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >



                • Jason Smith
                  Stiffness is the ability to stand up to wind force acting on the rig. Good upwind VMGs are only possible with a low, vertical center of gravity (VCG). The
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jul 30, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment

                    Stiffness is the ability to stand up to wind force acting on the rig.   Good upwind VMGs are only possible with a low, vertical center of gravity (VCG). The lower the weight of the boat relative to its waterplane, the greater the stability, the more sail that can be carried and the smoother the motion.  There is a reason they didn't build many SDs....it is a compromise.


                    The shoal draft chord is much larger when compared to the 5' keel.  The shoal draft is 700# heavier as well.  You are correct that hydrodynamic parameters are different.


                    You really haven't told us much about how you will use the boat and where you are located.  How shallow are the waters where you will sail the boat?  What's your budget, etc, etc?


                    I'm not trying to talk you out of the SD, just passing along information I learned from Rod at the USSS a few years back.  I suspect a SD J/28 will still be faster than most anything in its peer group.  Just not a DD J/28.  


                    Btw, to answer your follow up email.  Yes, I have sailed on J/28 (both deep and shoal).  Yes, I am an owner.


                    -Jason


                    On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@...> wrote:
                     

                    What stiffness are you referring too?  Stiffness in the hull or stiffness translated into the rig?  How does the shoal draft version affect the stiffness??  Looking at the PHRF ratings, the hit does not seem that substantial.  I would expect some type of weather performance inhibited by the shoal model, but it is only a foot.  Also, by the specs that I have found, they still maintain the 3000lbs of weight in the keel.  (don't know how unless the keel is fatter)  Which would affect the lift of hydrodynamics in the keel. 
                     
                    I am very interested in your findings as I am looking at a SD J/28.  My local waters can be shallow in some areas which makes the SD version a viable option.  However, if I am looking at a serious degradation in performance and the boat can never sail to her rating, then it doesn't make sense to spend the kind of money for a boat that won't ever sail to her rating.  Might as well get a Catalina 30.  ugh!
                     
                    Thanks!!! 
                     
                    Tommy

                    From: J Smith <jason3317@...>
                    To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 1:19 PM

                    Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

                     
                    The J/28 has a higher center of gravity than other comparable J's of that era. The reason being they need to get accommodation volume into the hull on a 24' LWL. The deep fin keel, also uncommon on the cruising hulls during the time of the UFO keels, helped mitigate some the performance hit. Obviously, the SD gives a similar righting moment, at the expense of windward performance and (imho)...stiffness. I would think very hard before I bought a SD J/28. If you sail in skinny water....it may not be possible. But then I'd be looking at a J/95 or J/108.
                    From: "Tommy" <evenflow457@...>
                    Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 17:00:09 -0000
                    Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

                     
                    I sure was hoping you would have said Shoal Draft! That is a pretty sweet finish though. These boats (at least the Fin Keels) sail well to their rating.

                    Tommy

                    --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Fin keel. Took another 1st last night. Probably blowing around 15, started out with a reefed main, took it out just before rounding the leward mark on the first pass around. The last 3 weeks we have been finishing up front with a 48' Hinckley Sw, their rating is 129, they are in the big boat fleet The RC changed the starting order the last 3 weeks, the small boats are starting with the big boats, we only have 4 small boats that show up on a regular basis out of the 8 that signed up, so the 2 cruising fleets start together but are scored separately. Roy
                    > To: mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com

                    > From: evenflow457@...
                    > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 21:40:51 +0000
                    > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                    >
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                    > Roy,
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                    > Do you have the Shoal draft or the Fin keel??
                    >
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                    >
                    > Tommy
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
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                    > >
                    >
                    > > We have our settings at 975 uppers and 775 lowers and with the new main and mast step change are just walking away from our competition, when the wind is over 10 knots. We have the mast base fully forward this year too. The first year we had the mast back, last year it was in the middle and this year all the way forward. If the wind is 6-8 knots, we don't do so well and under 6 we do OK. Our fleet, under 30', starts 5 minutes after the over 30' and by the end of the race we have usually passed all but 2 of the big boats, they range from 30' to 42', all but one are over 35'. We have setup the boat very close to the way the J30's in Marblehead are setup, except maybe about 100 lbs or so lighter on tension. We have a fin keel, gas grill on the stern rail, dodger, cockpit table (put away under sail), anchor stowed under the starboard settee, V-berth linens all on board. We have a fair amount of headstay sag, maybe 8-10 inches in light to medium winds before we start cranking on the backstay. We reef the main at about 14-15 knots of wind and leave the 155% up, bring the leads back, crank on the back stay and pinch (and point) crazy high in the heavier winds, using the pinching to bleed off air. We have a fairly light weight crew and race with about 5-6 people in the cruising fleet, 3 are women. We have the 155 set with 3 holes showing behind the lead. We usually out point everyone by huge amounts except for an Alerion 28 and a Baby Beneteau 235. On a good day (over 10 knots) we are even boat speed with the Alerion upwind and we are always faster downwind. We usually sail in a dying breeze on Tuesday nights, it might start out around 10-12 knots and slowly craps out. Roy
                    >
                    > > To: mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com

                    >
                    > > From: jfws88@
                    >
                    > > Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 16:52:10 +0000
                    >
                    > > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
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                    > > Interesting, When Todd measured my boat for Roy's main he asked if I sail with the rig this loose. And, he really cranked the backstay for one of the measurements. I mean pully down to the hand rail tight. I'd never seem my mast bend that much. His words,"perfectly normal"
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > I use the back stay alot in a breeze to help flatten the boat and ease weather helm but I never pulled it that far. Conclusion for me, my rig is too loose by all accounts here.
                    >
                    > >
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                    >
                    > > Dave, I'm not sure if I'll go all the my to your tuning but I will take heed of 42 years racing J boats.
                    >
                    > >
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                    > >
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                    >
                    > > --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
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                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
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                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Tommy,
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                    > >
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                    > > >
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                    >
                    > > > I have a shoal draft. With my rig tuned as described, the back stay is off all the way most of the time except cranked in on heavy puffs going upwind. To the best of my knowledge, fractional rig J's always should have the lowers tighter than the uppers. In all my years of J racing (that would be 42 years), I have never seen a J mast given way or broken. Having the lowers tighter than the uppers allows the upper third of the mast to fall off in heavy air allowing the main to dump some load and the boat sails flatter. Again, all this is for fractional rigs only.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
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                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Sent from my iPad
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
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                    > >
                    >
                    > > > David L. Hastings
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Home: 352-794-6440
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 8:22 AM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
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                    > > >
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                    > > > > David,
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                    > > > > Do you have a shoal draft or the 5' version?
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                    > > > > That makes sense that you are faster upwind than downwind. With the rig that tight, you are not allowing it sag or bend forward when sailing downwind. However, don't ease you backstay too much downwind though. With the lowers on hard, the mast could snap in moderate conditions. I am curious though, with the lowers tighter than the uppers, do you find yourself needing to ease the main to stay powered up when sailing upwind?
                    >
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                    > > > > JP,
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                    > > > > You definitely want to move your mast step back. That gives your main better shape and allows more draft when needed in light stuff and in chop. As far as sag, on an older gennie, you can tighten your halyard a more than with a new one. This will move the draft forward as you always fighting the draft moving aft in older sails.
                    >
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                    > > > > I am getting all pumped up about these boats and I don't have one, YET!!
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                    > > > > Tommy
                    >
                    > >
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                    > > > >
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                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > From: David Hastings <david.hastings@>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > To: "mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 7:38 AM
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
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                    > >
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                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > John, pointing has always been my strength. My losses have always been down wind. I am not a numbers guy. I've always been a seat of the pants sailor. I've set up my boat the same as I tuned my J29 as follows:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > Head stay is at maximum length and mast has a slight rake. Mast step it not all the way forward. I'd guess it's about 1"ahead of center. Making sure everything is neutral and mast is centered, I pull on the back stay as hard and far as possible. Next, I tighten the uppers until the back stay begins to loosen a bit so the uppers are real tight. Now I release the back stay and the mast in really bent. Next I tighten the lowers until the prebend is pretty much gone and the mast looks as straight as possible. Now the lowers are tighter than the uppers and they are both pretty darn tight. I have never used a gauge. This has always worked well for me on the J29 for upwind performance in all conditions.
                    >
                    > >
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                    > > > >
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                    > >
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                    > > > > As far as the sails go, I had a 155 on my J29 and seldom reduced sail but usually had a crew of 7. I have only a 135 on my J28 and It's in poor condition.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > I usually do best with the main strapped in hard and the boom slightly to windward of center. If higher pointing is needed in close situations, I pull the traveler over more to windward which, of course, slows the boat but usually allows me to get up and get by the problem.
                    >
                    > >
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                    > > > >
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                    > > > > I'm still too new to the 28 to know whether or not this set up will work as well as it did on the 29 but so far it appears to be doing the trick so I'm sticking with it until I find the need of something different.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > Sent from my iPad
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > David L. Hastings
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > Home: 352-794-6440
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:38 AM, John Power <sailingmaster@> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >> I would be interested in some accurate tuning numbers as well, particularly a rake measurement. Currently I have my mast step max forward and about 900 on my uppers and 750 on the lowers.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >> I would like to see the mast bend a little lower and wonder if som blocks at the mast partner would help.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >> Also how much sag do you carry in the head stay?
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >> I have 4-5 inches I would say and am our Iu adjustment on the RF
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >> I gave raced the boat much, but I know the old genoa needs to be replaced before I can comment on pointing. I use the 135 as well the 150 overpowers the boat quickly in any breeze
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >> JP
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >> Sent from my iPhone
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >> On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:09 AM, John <jfws88@> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> Dave, Interesting, pointing has always been my weakness. Do you have any numbers on your rig set-up? And are you useing a 150% genny. I find I point best with the boom pointed at the leward backstay, not on center. I use a 135% genny and tune my rig to about 80% of the recommended J30 settings. When I don't do well in a race it's almost always due to looses upwind.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> John
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > Haven't gotten my shoal draft J race ready yet so no formal racing to date but I have had several opportunities to buff with a local S2 racer who usually takes home the gold and I can beat the hell out of him upwind. I point higher and go faster and that's before getting my new main.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > Sent from my iPad
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > David L. Hastings
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > Crystal River, FL 34429
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > Home: 352-794-6440
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > Cell: 315-345-2078
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > On Jul 2, 2012, at 3:10 PM, "Tommy" <evenflow457@> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > > Hey J28'ers,
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > > Looking for more input on the racing performance of the shoal draft model? I want to mainly cruz, but i still have the "racing bug" urge to race around the bouys.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > > Any thoughts??
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > > Tx Tommy
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > __________________________________________________________
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > NetZero now offers 4G mobile broadband. Sign up now.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT1
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > __________________________________________________________
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > 5 Diet Pills that Work
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > 2012's Top 5 Weight Loss Pills. Updated Consumer Ratings. Free Report.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > DietRatings.org
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > __________________________________________________________
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > 53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4ff300315ee2f2f7de2st51duc
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >




                  • Tommy Koe
                    Hey Jason,   Thanx for the feedback.  Very interesting what RJ had to say.  I understand the dynamics of VMG and VCG.  When you had made the comment about
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jul 30, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hey Jason,
                       
                      Thanx for the feedback.  Very interesting what RJ had to say.  I understand the dynamics of VMG and VCG.  When you had made the comment about the stiffness of the boat, I immediately started thinking about the deck stiffness.  I have sailed way to many beat up Melges 24's and couldn't un-wrap my head from that.  Thx for the clarification.
                       
                      I did not know that the SD was 700# heavier!  Maybe to help offset the compromise of the shallower keel?
                       
                      I live on the East coast of Florida and will be primarily sailing in the intercoastal.  Average depth is ~6-8, but there are quite a few shoals in the area as well that get as shallow as 3 ft.  My plan for the boat is really 2 fold.  I have raced most my life and am starting to slow down just a bit.  My wife loves to sail, but not race.  More cruising or casual sailing.  So my goal was/is to find a boat that can meet my racing needs and her cruising/casual needs.  I had given up hope until I had stumbled onto the J/28.  I have raced on J/24's and J/30's and I love the performance of the J Boat.  Just didn't think I could get a J boat to meet my wifes needs.  Also, at 28', the boat is nice for single or double-handed sailing.
                       
                      So the boat would doing some local and out of town racing, distance racing and cruising.  To include overnights and possibly cruzing for a week or two each year.   A broad spectrum of requirements, I know.  But if you can have both, then, why not?
                       
                      Boats with 5' plus keels regularly "bump" while racing in the intercoastal and the couple of boats we do have at the Yacht club that are 6' +, pretty much have to stay close to or in the channel.  Of course, wing keel boats are out of the question! 
                       
                      One reason I am looking at the SD is that there is one in Florida and that is a big convience factor.  If there were the DD versions down here, I would be much more interested in that type of boat.  It would be the choice version to have. 
                       
                      As far as budget, not looking to spend more than 40-45k.
                       
                      How long have you had your J/28?  Do you race mostly or cruise? Or a lot of both.  Most of the guys who I have talked to seems to do a lot of both, which is really exciting.
                       
                      Thanks for the great info Jason!!!  I appreciate your time.  Oh, BTW, I have read some stuff about rudder issues.  Have you experienced any of that?
                       
                      TX
                       
                      Tommy
                       
                       

                      From: Jason Smith <jason3317@...>
                      To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 2:12 PM
                      Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

                       
                      Stiffness is the ability to stand up to wind force acting on the rig.   Good upwind VMGs are only possible with a low, vertical center of gravity (VCG). The lower the weight of the boat relative to its waterplane, the greater the stability, the more sail that can be carried and the smoother the motion.  There is a reason they didn't build many SDs....it is a compromise.

                      The shoal draft chord is much larger when compared to the 5' keel.  The shoal draft is 700# heavier as well.  You are correct that hydrodynamic parameters are different.

                      You really haven't told us much about how you will use the boat and where you are located.  How shallow are the waters where you will sail the boat?  What's your budget, etc, etc?

                      I'm not trying to talk you out of the SD, just passing along information I learned from Rod at the USSS a few years back.  I suspect a SD J/28 will still be faster than most anything in its peer group.  Just not a DD J/28.  

                      Btw, to answer your follow up email.  Yes, I have sailed on J/28 (both deep and shoal).  Yes, I am an owner.

                      -Jason

                      On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@...> wrote:
                       
                      What stiffness are you referring too?  Stiffness in the hull or stiffness translated into the rig?  How does the shoal draft version affect the stiffness??  Looking at the PHRF ratings, the hit does not seem that substantial.  I would expect some type of weather performance inhibited by the shoal model, but it is only a foot.  Also, by the specs that I have found, they still maintain the 3000lbs of weight in the keel.  (don't know how unless the keel is fatter)  Which would affect the lift of hydrodynamics in the keel. 
                       
                      I am very interested in your findings as I am looking at a SD J/28.  My local waters can be shallow in some areas which makes the SD version a viable option.  However, if I am looking at a serious degradation in performance and the boat can never sail to her rating, then it doesn't make sense to spend the kind of money for a boat that won't ever sail to her rating.  Might as well get a Catalina 30.  ugh!
                       
                      Thanks!!! 
                       
                      Tommy

                      From: J Smith <jason3317@...>
                      To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 1:19 PM

                      Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

                       
                      The J/28 has a higher center of gravity than other comparable J's of that era. The reason being they need to get accommodation volume into the hull on a 24' LWL. The deep fin keel, also uncommon on the cruising hulls during the time of the UFO keels, helped mitigate some the performance hit. Obviously, the SD gives a similar righting moment, at the expense of windward performance and (imho)...stiffness. I would think very hard before I bought a SD J/28. If you sail in skinny water....it may not be possible. But then I'd be looking at a J/95 or J/108.
                      From: "Tommy" <evenflow457@...>
                      Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 17:00:09 -0000
                      Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

                       
                      I sure was hoping you would have said Shoal Draft! That is a pretty sweet finish though. These boats (at least the Fin Keels) sail well to their rating.

                      Tommy

                      --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Fin keel. Took another 1st last night. Probably blowing around 15, started out with a reefed main, took it out just before rounding the leward mark on the first pass around. The last 3 weeks we have been finishing up front with a 48' Hinckley Sw, their rating is 129, they are in the big boat fleet The RC changed the starting order the last 3 weeks, the small boats are starting with the big boats, we only have 4 small boats that show up on a regular basis out of the 8 that signed up, so the 2 cruising fleets start together but are scored separately. Roy
                      > To: mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com

                      > From: evenflow457@...
                      > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 21:40:51 +0000
                      > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
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                      > Do you have the Shoal draft or the Fin keel??
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                      > Tommy
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                      > --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@> wrote:
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                      > > We have our settings at 975 uppers and 775 lowers and with the new main and mast step change are just walking away from our competition, when the wind is over 10 knots. We have the mast base fully forward this year too. The first year we had the mast back, last year it was in the middle and this year all the way forward. If the wind is 6-8 knots, we don't do so well and under 6 we do OK. Our fleet, under 30', starts 5 minutes after the over 30' and by the end of the race we have usually passed all but 2 of the big boats, they range from 30' to 42', all but one are over 35'. We have setup the boat very close to the way the J30's in Marblehead are setup, except maybe about 100 lbs or so lighter on tension. We have a fin keel, gas grill on the stern rail, dodger, cockpit table (put away under sail), anchor stowed under the starboard settee, V-berth linens all on board. We have a fair amount of headstay sag, maybe 8-10 inches in light to medium winds before we start cranking on the backstay. We reef the main at about 14-15 knots of wind and leave the 155% up, bring the leads back, crank on the back stay and pinch (and point) crazy high in the heavier winds, using the pinching to bleed off air. We have a fairly light weight crew and race with about 5-6 people in the cruising fleet, 3 are women. We have the 155 set with 3 holes showing behind the lead. We usually out point everyone by huge amounts except for an Alerion 28 and a Baby Beneteau 235. On a good day (over 10 knots) we are even boat speed with the Alerion upwind and we are always faster downwind. We usually sail in a dying breeze on Tuesday nights, it might start out around 10-12 knots and slowly craps out. Roy
                      >
                      > > To: mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com

                      >
                      > > From: jfws88@
                      >
                      > > Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 16:52:10 +0000
                      >
                      > > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
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                      > > Interesting, When Todd measured my boat for Roy's main he asked if I sail with the rig this loose. And, he really cranked the backstay for one of the measurements. I mean pully down to the hand rail tight. I'd never seem my mast bend that much. His words,"perfectly normal"
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                      > > I use the back stay alot in a breeze to help flatten the boat and ease weather helm but I never pulled it that far. Conclusion for me, my rig is too loose by all accounts here.
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                      > > Dave, I'm not sure if I'll go all the my to your tuning but I will take heed of 42 years racing J boats.
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                      > > --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
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                      > > > Tommy,
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                      > > > I have a shoal draft. With my rig tuned as described, the back stay is off all the way most of the time except cranked in on heavy puffs going upwind. To the best of my knowledge, fractional rig J's always should have the lowers tighter than the uppers. In all my years of J racing (that would be 42 years), I have never seen a J mast given way or broken. Having the lowers tighter than the uppers allows the upper third of the mast to fall off in heavy air allowing the main to dump some load and the boat sails flatter. Again, all this is for fractional rigs only.
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                      > > > Sent from my iPad
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                      > > > David L. Hastings
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                      > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
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                      > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Home: 352-794-6440
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
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                      > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 8:22 AM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@> wrote:
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                      > > > > David,
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                      > > > > Do you have a shoal draft or the 5' version?
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                      > > > > That makes sense that you are faster upwind than downwind. With the rig that tight, you are not allowing it sag or bend forward when sailing downwind. However, don't ease you backstay too much downwind though. With the lowers on hard, the mast could snap in moderate conditions. I am curious though, with the lowers tighter than the uppers, do you find yourself needing to ease the main to stay powered up when sailing upwind?
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                      > > > > JP,
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                      > > > > You definitely want to move your mast step back. That gives your main better shape and allows more draft when needed in light stuff and in chop. As far as sag, on an older gennie, you can tighten your halyard a more than with a new one. This will move the draft forward as you always fighting the draft moving aft in older sails.
                      >
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                      > > > > I am getting all pumped up about these boats and I don't have one, YET!!
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                      > > > > Tommy
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                      > > > > From: David Hastings <david.hastings@>
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > To: "mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com>
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 7:38 AM
                      >
                      > >
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                      > > > > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
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                      > > > >
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                      > > > > John, pointing has always been my strength. My losses have always been down wind. I am not a numbers guy. I've always been a seat of the pants sailor. I've set up my boat the same as I tuned my J29 as follows:
                      >
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                      > > > >
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                      > > > > Head stay is at maximum length and mast has a slight rake. Mast step it not all the way forward. I'd guess it's about 1"ahead of center. Making sure everything is neutral and mast is centered, I pull on the back stay as hard and far as possible. Next, I tighten the uppers until the back stay begins to loosen a bit so the uppers are real tight. Now I release the back stay and the mast in really bent. Next I tighten the lowers until the prebend is pretty much gone and the mast looks as straight as possible. Now the lowers are tighter than the uppers and they are both pretty darn tight. I have never used a gauge. This has always worked well for me on the J29 for upwind performance in all conditions.
                      >
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                      > > > > As far as the sails go, I had a 155 on my J29 and seldom reduced sail but usually had a crew of 7. I have only a 135 on my J28 and It's in poor condition.
                      >
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                      > > > >
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                      > > > > I usually do best with the main strapped in hard and the boom slightly to windward of center. If higher pointing is needed in close situations, I pull the traveler over more to windward which, of course, slows the boat but usually allows me to get up and get by the problem.
                      >
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                      > > > > I'm still too new to the 28 to know whether or not this set up will work as well as it did on the 29 but so far it appears to be doing the trick so I'm sticking with it until I find the need of something different.
                      >
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                      > > > > Sent from my iPad
                      >
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                      > > > > David L. Hastings
                      >
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                      > > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > Home: 352-794-6440
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
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                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:38 AM, John Power <sailingmaster@> wrote:
                      >
                      > >
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                      > > > >
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                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>
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                      > > > >> I would be interested in some accurate tuning numbers as well, particularly a rake measurement. Currently I have my mast step max forward and about 900 on my uppers and 750 on the lowers.
                      >
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                      > > > >>
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                      > > > >> I would like to see the mast bend a little lower and wonder if som blocks at the mast partner would help.
                      >
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                      > > > >>
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                      > > > >> Also how much sag do you carry in the head stay?
                      >
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                      > > > >>
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                      > > > >> I have 4-5 inches I would say and am our Iu adjustment on the RF
                      >
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                      > > > >>
                      >
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                      > > > >> I gave raced the boat much, but I know the old genoa needs to be replaced before I can comment on pointing. I use the 135 as well the 150 overpowers the boat quickly in any breeze
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>
                      >
                      > >
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                      > > > >> JP
                      >
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                      > > > >>
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                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >> Sent from my iPhone
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>
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                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >> On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:09 AM, John <jfws88@> wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>>
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> Dave, Interesting, pointing has always been my weakness. Do you have any numbers on your rig set-up? And are you useing a 150% genny. I find I point best with the boom pointed at the leward backstay, not on center. I use a 135% genny and tune my rig to about 80% of the recommended J30 settings. When I don't do well in a race it's almost always due to looses upwind.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>>
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> John
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > Haven't gotten my shoal draft J race ready yet so no formal racing to date but I have had several opportunities to buff with a local S2 racer who usually takes home the gold and I can beat the hell out of him upwind. I point higher and go faster and that's before getting my new main.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > Sent from my iPad
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > David L. Hastings
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > Crystal River, FL 34429
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > Home: 352-794-6440
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > Cell: 315-345-2078
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > On Jul 2, 2012, at 3:10 PM, "Tommy" <evenflow457@> wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > > Hey J28'ers,
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > > Looking for more input on the racing performance of the shoal draft model? I want to mainly cruz, but i still have the "racing bug" urge to race around the bouys.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > > Any thoughts??
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > > Tx Tommy
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > >
                      >
                      > >
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                      > > > >>> > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > __________________________________________________________
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                      > > > >>> > NetZero now offers 4G mobile broadband. Sign up now.
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                      > > > >>>
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > __________________________________________________________
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > 5 Diet Pills that Work
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                      > > > > 2012's Top 5 Weight Loss Pills. Updated Consumer Ratings. Free Report.
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                      > >
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                      > > > > DietRatings.org
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                      > > > >
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                    • David Hastings
                      Okay you guys, as the new kid on the block And with relatively little time sailing my SD J28 #30, I can t yet give you a lot of proof on how well the SD J28
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jul 30, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Okay you guys, as the new kid on the block And with relatively little time sailing my SD J28 #30, I can't yet give you a lot of proof on how well the SD J28 does but let me tell you this. I recently moved from upstate NY (Lake Ontario area) to the west coast of Florida and I bought this boat because I long had planned on a SD J28 as my retirement boat. 

                        I grew up racing Flying Dutchmen and was very active in that class as long as it was an Olympic class. I competed in the America trials for the Olympics the year they were held in Kingston, Ontario. In 1969 I sold my FD and purchased a New J24 which I raced actively until 1976 when I traded it in on a new fractional rig J29 which I raced actively until 2010. In 2009 I bought the SD J28 (which had been on the hard for five years, was full of water and a real mess but structurally sound) and spent a year working on it in my front yard. Finally launched it in 2010 and sailed it only briefly that year. The following year I was still working on it most of the summer but got a few short weeks of sailing in. I have just about finished the restoration project and am, in fact, on my way up to NY to splash the boat in a couple of days. I will be living on the boat and sailing it actively in Lake Ontario from the end of this week until Labor Day weekend. Now, what I can tell you is that I, too, was concerned about performance with the SD keel. Those concerns, however, we're put to rest the first time I sailed the boat. I have found it to be excellent up wind as I can out point anything I've bucked with so far including some pretty competitive racers. The boat feels and acts the same as my prior J's. The only short fall I've discovered so far is that light air performance is not what I have been used to in my prior J's. It is sluggish and does not maneuver nearly as well in the real light stuff. I do think it will be a rating beater in most conditions. I'm certain she'll be a winner in moderate to heavy hair. For my money, I don't think there is any boat of similar size the offers such fine accommodations and sails so well - - - - like a J. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.  Now that I have a new main, the rig set up the way I want it and a full month of 24/7's to play around with it, I'll know a lot more next month and I'll be glad to report on what I find. I am really excited about this boat and can't imagine any serious sailor considering anything other than a J, shoal draft or fin!

                        Sent from my iPad

                        David L. Hastings
                        5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                        Crystal River, FL 34429
                        Home: 352-794-6440
                        Cell: 315-345-2078

                        On Jul 30, 2012, at 4:34 PM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@...> wrote:

                         

                        Hey Jason,
                         
                        Thanx for the feedback.  Very interesting what RJ had to say.  I understand the dynamics of VMG and VCG.  When you had made the comment about the stiffness of the boat, I immediately started thinking about the deck stiffness.  I have sailed way to many beat up Melges 24's and couldn't un-wrap my head from that.  Thx for the clarification.
                         
                        I did not know that the SD was 700# heavier!  Maybe to help offset the compromise of the shallower keel?
                         
                        I live on the East coast of Florida and will be primarily sailing in the intercoastal.  Average depth is ~6-8, but there are quite a few shoals in the area as well that get as shallow as 3 ft.  My plan for the boat is really 2 fold.  I have raced most my life and am starting to slow down just a bit.  My wife loves to sail, but not race.  More cruising or casual sailing.  So my goal was/is to find a boat that can meet my racing needs and her cruising/casual needs.  I had given up hope until I had stumbled onto the J/28.  I have raced on J/24's and J/30's and I love the performance of the J Boat.  Just didn't think I could get a J boat to meet my wifes needs.  Also, at 28', the boat is nice for single or double-handed sailing.
                         
                        So the boat would doing some local and out of town racing, distance racing and cruising.  To include overnights and possibly cruzing for a week or two each year.   A broad spectrum of requirements, I know.  But if you can have both, then, why not?
                         
                        Boats with 5' plus keels regularly "bump" while racing in the intercoastal and the couple of boats we do have at the Yacht club that are 6' +, pretty much have to stay close to or in the channel.  Of course, wing keel boats are out of the question! 
                         
                        One reason I am looking at the SD is that there is one in Florida and that is a big convience factor.  If there were the DD versions down here, I would be much more interested in that type of boat.  It would be the choice version to have. 
                         
                        As far as budget, not looking to spend more than 40-45k.
                         
                        How long have you had your J/28?  Do you race mostly or cruise? Or a lot of both.  Most of the guys who I have talked to seems to do a lot of both, which is really exciting.
                         
                        Thanks for the great info Jason!!!  I appreciate your time.  Oh, BTW, I have read some stuff about rudder issues.  Have you experienced any of that?
                         
                        TX
                         
                        Tommy
                         
                         

                        From: Jason Smith <jason3317@...>
                        To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 2:12 PM
                        Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

                         
                        Stiffness is the ability to stand up to wind force acting on the rig.   Good upwind VMGs are only possible with a low, vertical center of gravity (VCG). The lower the weight of the boat relative to its waterplane, the greater the stability, the more sail that can be carried and the smoother the motion.  There is a reason they didn't build many SDs....it is a compromise.

                        The shoal draft chord is much larger when compared to the 5' keel.  The shoal draft is 700# heavier as well.  You are correct that hydrodynamic parameters are different.

                        You really haven't told us much about how you will use the boat and where you are located.  How shallow are the waters where you will sail the boat?  What's your budget, etc, etc?

                        I'm not trying to talk you out of the SD, just passing along information I learned from Rod at the USSS a few years back.  I suspect a SD J/28 will still be faster than most anything in its peer group.  Just not a DD J/28.  

                        Btw, to answer your follow up email.  Yes, I have sailed on J/28 (both deep and shoal).  Yes, I am an owner.

                        -Jason

                        On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@...> wrote:
                         
                        What stiffness are you referring too?  Stiffness in the hull or stiffness translated into the rig?  How does the shoal draft version affect the stiffness??  Looking at the PHRF ratings, the hit does not seem that substantial.  I would expect some type of weather performance inhibited by the shoal model, but it is only a foot.  Also, by the specs that I have found, they still maintain the 3000lbs of weight in the keel.  (don't know how unless the keel is fatter)  Which would affect the lift of hydrodynamics in the keel. 
                         
                        I am very interested in your findings as I am looking at a SD J/28.  My local waters can be shallow in some areas which makes the SD version a viable option.  However, if I am looking at a serious degradation in performance and the boat can never sail to her rating, then it doesn't make sense to spend the kind of money for a boat that won't ever sail to her rating.  Might as well get a Catalina 30.  ugh!
                         
                        Thanks!!! 
                         
                        Tommy

                        From: J Smith <jason3317@...>
                        To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 1:19 PM

                        Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

                         
                        The J/28 has a higher center of gravity than other comparable J's of that era. The reason being they need to get accommodation volume into the hull on a 24' LWL. The deep fin keel, also uncommon on the cruising hulls during the time of the UFO keels, helped mitigate some the performance hit. Obviously, the SD gives a similar righting moment, at the expense of windward performance and (imho)...stiffness. I would think very hard before I bought a SD J/28. If you sail in skinny water....it may not be possible. But then I'd be looking at a J/95 or J/108.
                        From: "Tommy" <evenflow457@...>
                        Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 17:00:09 -0000
                        Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

                         
                        I sure was hoping you would have said Shoal Draft! That is a pretty sweet finish though. These boats (at least the Fin Keels) sail well to their rating.

                        Tommy

                        --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Fin keel. Took another 1st last night. Probably blowing around 15, started out with a reefed main, took it out just before rounding the leward mark on the first pass around. The last 3 weeks we have been finishing up front with a 48' Hinckley Sw, their rating is 129, they are in the big boat fleet The RC changed the starting order the last 3 weeks, the small boats are starting with the big boats, we only have 4 small boats that show up on a regular basis out of the 8 that signed up, so the 2 cruising fleets start together but are scored separately. Roy
                        > To: mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com

                        > From: evenflow457@...
                        > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 21:40:51 +0000
                        > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
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                        > Roy,
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                        > Do you have the Shoal draft or the Fin keel??
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                        > Tommy
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                        >
                        > --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@> wrote:
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                        > > We have our settings at 975 uppers and 775 lowers and with the new main and mast step change are just walking away from our competition, when the wind is over 10 knots. We have the mast base fully forward this year too. The first year we had the mast back, last year it was in the middle and this year all the way forward. If the wind is 6-8 knots, we don't do so well and under 6 we do OK. Our fleet, under 30', starts 5 minutes after the over 30' and by the end of the race we have usually passed all but 2 of the big boats, they range from 30' to 42', all but one are over 35'. We have setup the boat very close to the way the J30's in Marblehead are setup, except maybe about 100 lbs or so lighter on tension. We have a fin keel, gas grill on the stern rail, dodger, cockpit table (put away under sail), anchor stowed under the starboard settee, V-berth linens all on board. We have a fair amount of headstay sag, maybe 8-10 inches in light to medium winds before we start cranking on the backstay. We reef the main at about 14-15 knots of wind and leave the 155% up, bring the leads back, crank on the back stay and pinch (and point) crazy high in the heavier winds, using the pinching to bleed off air. We have a fairly light weight crew and race with about 5-6 people in the cruising fleet, 3 are women. We have the 155 set with 3 holes showing behind the lead. We usually out point everyone by huge amounts except for an Alerion 28 and a Baby Beneteau 235. On a good day (over 10 knots) we are even boat speed with the Alerion upwind and we are always faster downwind. We usually sail in a dying breeze on Tuesday nights, it might start out around 10-12 knots and slowly craps out. Roy
                        >
                        > > To: mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com

                        >
                        > > From: jfws88@
                        >
                        > > Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 16:52:10 +0000
                        >
                        > > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
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                        > > Interesting, When Todd measured my boat for Roy's main he asked if I sail with the rig this loose. And, he really cranked the backstay for one of the measurements. I mean pully down to the hand rail tight. I'd never seem my mast bend that much. His words,"perfectly normal"
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                        > > I use the back stay alot in a breeze to help flatten the boat and ease weather helm but I never pulled it that far. Conclusion for me, my rig is too loose by all accounts here.
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                        > > Dave, I'm not sure if I'll go all the my to your tuning but I will take heed of 42 years racing J boats.
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                        > > --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
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                        > > > Tommy,
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                        > > > I have a shoal draft. With my rig tuned as described, the back stay is off all the way most of the time except cranked in on heavy puffs going upwind. To the best of my knowledge, fractional rig J's always should have the lowers tighter than the uppers. In all my years of J racing (that would be 42 years), I have never seen a J mast given way or broken. Having the lowers tighter than the uppers allows the upper third of the mast to fall off in heavy air allowing the main to dump some load and the boat sails flatter. Again, all this is for fractional rigs only.
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                        > > >
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                        > > > Sent from my iPad
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                        > > >
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                        > > > David L. Hastings
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                        > >
                        >
                        > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
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                        >
                        > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
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                        > >
                        >
                        > > > Home: 352-794-6440
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > >
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                        > >
                        >
                        > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 8:22 AM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@> wrote:
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                        > > > > David,
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                        > > > > Do you have a shoal draft or the 5' version?
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                        > > > > That makes sense that you are faster upwind than downwind. With the rig that tight, you are not allowing it sag or bend forward when sailing downwind. However, don't ease you backstay too much downwind though. With the lowers on hard, the mast could snap in moderate conditions. I am curious though, with the lowers tighter than the uppers, do you find yourself needing to ease the main to stay powered up when sailing upwind?
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                        > > > > JP,
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                        > > > > You definitely want to move your mast step back. That gives your main better shape and allows more draft when needed in light stuff and in chop. As far as sag, on an older gennie, you can tighten your halyard a more than with a new one. This will move the draft forward as you always fighting the draft moving aft in older sails.
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                        > > > > I am getting all pumped up about these boats and I don't have one, YET!!
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                        > > > > Tommy
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                        > > > > From: David Hastings <david.hastings@>
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > To: "mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com>
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 7:38 AM
                        >
                        > >
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                        > > > > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
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                        > > > >
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                        > > > > John, pointing has always been my strength. My losses have always been down wind. I am not a numbers guy. I've always been a seat of the pants sailor. I've set up my boat the same as I tuned my J29 as follows:
                        >
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                        > > > >
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                        > > > > Head stay is at maximum length and mast has a slight rake. Mast step it not all the way forward. I'd guess it's about 1"ahead of center. Making sure everything is neutral and mast is centered, I pull on the back stay as hard and far as possible. Next, I tighten the uppers until the back stay begins to loosen a bit so the uppers are real tight. Now I release the back stay and the mast in really bent. Next I tighten the lowers until the prebend is pretty much gone and the mast looks as straight as possible. Now the lowers are tighter than the uppers and they are both pretty darn tight. I have never used a gauge. This has always worked well for me on the J29 for upwind performance in all conditions.
                        >
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                        > > > > As far as the sails go, I had a 155 on my J29 and seldom reduced sail but usually had a crew of 7. I have only a 135 on my J28 and It's in poor condition.
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                        > > > >
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                        > > > > I usually do best with the main strapped in hard and the boom slightly to windward of center. If higher pointing is needed in close situations, I pull the traveler over more to windward which, of course, slows the boat but usually allows me to get up and get by the problem.
                        >
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                        > > > > I'm still too new to the 28 to know whether or not this set up will work as well as it did on the 29 but so far it appears to be doing the trick so I'm sticking with it until I find the need of something different.
                        >
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                        > > > > Sent from my iPad
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                        > > > > David L. Hastings
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > Home: 352-794-6440
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >
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                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:38 AM, John Power <sailingmaster@> wrote:
                        >
                        > >
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                        > > > >
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                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>
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                        > > > >> I would be interested in some accurate tuning numbers as well, particularly a rake measurement. Currently I have my mast step max forward and about 900 on my uppers and 750 on the lowers.
                        >
                        > >
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                        > > > >>
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                        > > > >> I would like to see the mast bend a little lower and wonder if som blocks at the mast partner would help.
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                        > > > >>
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                        > > > >> Also how much sag do you carry in the head stay?
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                        > > > >>
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                        > > > >> I have 4-5 inches I would say and am our Iu adjustment on the RF
                        >
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                        > > > >>
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                        > > > >> I gave raced the boat much, but I know the old genoa needs to be replaced before I can comment on pointing. I use the 135 as well the 150 overpowers the boat quickly in any breeze
                        >
                        > >
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                        > > > >>
                        >
                        > >
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                        > > > >> JP
                        >
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                        > > > >>
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                        > > > >> Sent from my iPhone
                        >
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                        >
                        > > > >>
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                        > > > >> On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:09 AM, John <jfws88@> wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>
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                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>>
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                        > > > >>> Dave, Interesting, pointing has always been my weakness. Do you have any numbers on your rig set-up? And are you useing a 150% genny. I find I point best with the boom pointed at the leward backstay, not on center. I use a 135% genny and tune my rig to about 80% of the recommended J30 settings. When I don't do well in a race it's almost always due to looses upwind.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>>
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> John
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> > Haven't gotten my shoal draft J race ready yet so no formal racing to date but I have had several opportunities to buff with a local S2 racer who usually takes home the gold and I can beat the hell out of him upwind. I point higher and go faster and that's before getting my new main.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> > Sent from my iPad
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> > David L. Hastings
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> > Crystal River, FL 34429
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> > Home: 352-794-6440
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> > Cell: 315-345-2078
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> > On Jul 2, 2012, at 3:10 PM, "Tommy" <evenflow457@> wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> > > Hey J28'ers,
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> > > Looking for more input on the racing performance of the shoal draft model? I want to mainly cruz, but i still have the "racing bug" urge to race around the bouys.
                        >
                        > >
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                        > > > >>> > >
                        >
                        > >
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                        > > > >>> > > Any thoughts??
                        >
                        > >
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                        > > > >>> > >
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                        > > > >>> > > Tx Tommy
                        >
                        > >
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                        > > > >>> > >
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                        > > > >>> > >
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                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> > __________________________________________________________
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                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> > NetZero now offers 4G mobile broadband. Sign up now.
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                        > > > >>>
                        >
                        > >
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                        > > > >
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                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > __________________________________________________________
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                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > 5 Diet Pills that Work
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                        > > > > DietRatings.org
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                      • Tommy Koe
                        David,   I look forward to reports from the north, as you start your new adventure on your new ride.  I am very interested in the performance of the boat vs.
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jul 31, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          David,
                           
                          I look forward to reports from the north, as you start your new adventure on your new ride.  I am very interested in the performance of the boat vs. other boats as well! 
                           
                          I agree, I think the build quality and setup of the J/28 is matched by no other. 
                           
                          Congrats on the hard work and safe sailing to blue waters of South Florida.
                           
                          tommy
                          From: David Hastings <david.hastings@...>
                          To: "J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com" <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
                          Cc: "J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com" <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 10:53 PM
                          Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

                           
                          Okay you guys, as the new kid on the block And with relatively little time sailing my SD J28 #30, I can't yet give you a lot of proof on how well the SD J28 does but let me tell you this. I recently moved from upstate NY (Lake Ontario area) to the west coast of Florida and I bought this boat because I long had planned on a SD J28 as my retirement boat. 

                          I grew up racing Flying Dutchmen and was very active in that class as long as it was an Olympic class. I competed in the America trials for the Olympics the year they were held in Kingston, Ontario. In 1969 I sold my FD and purchased a New J24 which I raced actively until 1976 when I traded it in on a new fractional rig J29 which I raced actively until 2010. In 2009 I bought the SD J28 (which had been on the hard for five years, was full of water and a real mess but structurally sound) and spent a year working on it in my front yard. Finally launched it in 2010 and sailed it only briefly that year. The following year I was still working on it most of the summer but got a few short weeks of sailing in. I have just about finished the restoration project and am, in fact, on my way up to NY to splash the boat in a couple of days. I will be living on the boat and sailing it actively in Lake Ontario from the end of this week until Labor Day weekend. Now, what I can tell you is that I, too, was concerned about performance with the SD keel. Those concerns, however, we're put to rest the first time I sailed the boat. I have found it to be excellent up wind as I can out point anything I've bucked with so far including some pretty competitive racers. The boat feels and acts the same as my prior J's. The only short fall I've discovered so far is that light air performance is not what I have been used to in my prior J's. It is sluggish and does not maneuver nearly as well in the real light stuff. I do think it will be a rating beater in most conditions. I'm certain she'll be a winner in moderate to heavy hair. For my money, I don't think there is any boat of similar size the offers such fine accommodations and sails so well - - - - like a J. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.  Now that I have a new main, the rig set up the way I want it and a full month of 24/7's to play around with it, I'll know a lot more next month and I'll be glad to report on what I find. I am really excited about this boat and can't imagine any serious sailor considering anything other than a J, shoal draft or fin!

                          Sent from my iPad

                          David L. Hastings
                          5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                          Crystal River, FL 34429
                          Home: 352-794-6440
                          Cell: 315-345-2078

                          On Jul 30, 2012, at 4:34 PM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@...> wrote:

                           
                          Hey Jason,
                           
                          Thanx for the feedback.  Very interesting what RJ had to say.  I understand the dynamics of VMG and VCG.  When you had made the comment about the stiffness of the boat, I immediately started thinking about the deck stiffness.  I have sailed way to many beat up Melges 24's and couldn't un-wrap my head from that.  Thx for the clarification.
                           
                          I did not know that the SD was 700# heavier!  Maybe to help offset the compromise of the shallower keel?
                           
                          I live on the East coast of Florida and will be primarily sailing in the intercoastal.  Average depth is ~6-8, but there are quite a few shoals in the area as well that get as shallow as 3 ft.  My plan for the boat is really 2 fold.  I have raced most my life and am starting to slow down just a bit.  My wife loves to sail, but not race.  More cruising or casual sailing.  So my goal was/is to find a boat that can meet my racing needs and her cruising/casual needs.  I had given up hope until I had stumbled onto the J/28.  I have raced on J/24's and J/30's and I love the performance of the J Boat.  Just didn't think I could get a J boat to meet my wifes needs.  Also, at 28', the boat is nice for single or double-handed sailing.
                           
                          So the boat would doing some local and out of town racing, distance racing and cruising.  To include overnights and possibly cruzing for a week or two each year.   A broad spectrum of requirements, I know.  But if you can have both, then, why not?
                           
                          Boats with 5' plus keels regularly "bump" while racing in the intercoastal and the couple of boats we do have at the Yacht club that are 6' +, pretty much have to stay close to or in the channel.  Of course, wing keel boats are out of the question! 
                           
                          One reason I am looking at the SD is that there is one in Florida and that is a big convience factor.  If there were the DD versions down here, I would be much more interested in that type of boat.  It would be the choice version to have. 
                           
                          As far as budget, not looking to spend more than 40-45k.
                           
                          How long have you had your J/28?  Do you race mostly or cruise? Or a lot of both.  Most of the guys who I have talked to seems to do a lot of both, which is really exciting.
                           
                          Thanks for the great info Jason!!!  I appreciate your time.  Oh, BTW, I have read some stuff about rudder issues.  Have you experienced any of that?
                           
                          TX
                           
                          Tommy
                           
                           

                          From: Jason Smith <jason3317@...>
                          To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 2:12 PM
                          Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

                           
                          Stiffness is the ability to stand up to wind force acting on the rig.   Good upwind VMGs are only possible with a low, vertical center of gravity (VCG). The lower the weight of the boat relative to its waterplane, the greater the stability, the more sail that can be carried and the smoother the motion.  There is a reason they didn't build many SDs....it is a compromise.

                          The shoal draft chord is much larger when compared to the 5' keel.  The shoal draft is 700# heavier as well.  You are correct that hydrodynamic parameters are different.

                          You really haven't told us much about how you will use the boat and where you are located.  How shallow are the waters where you will sail the boat?  What's your budget, etc, etc?

                          I'm not trying to talk you out of the SD, just passing along information I learned from Rod at the USSS a few years back.  I suspect a SD J/28 will still be faster than most anything in its peer group.  Just not a DD J/28.  

                          Btw, to answer your follow up email.  Yes, I have sailed on J/28 (both deep and shoal).  Yes, I am an owner.

                          -Jason

                          On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@...> wrote:
                           
                          What stiffness are you referring too?  Stiffness in the hull or stiffness translated into the rig?  How does the shoal draft version affect the stiffness??  Looking at the PHRF ratings, the hit does not seem that substantial.  I would expect some type of weather performance inhibited by the shoal model, but it is only a foot.  Also, by the specs that I have found, they still maintain the 3000lbs of weight in the keel.  (don't know how unless the keel is fatter)  Which would affect the lift of hydrodynamics in the keel. 
                           
                          I am very interested in your findings as I am looking at a SD J/28.  My local waters can be shallow in some areas which makes the SD version a viable option.  However, if I am looking at a serious degradation in performance and the boat can never sail to her rating, then it doesn't make sense to spend the kind of money for a boat that won't ever sail to her rating.  Might as well get a Catalina 30.  ugh!
                           
                          Thanks!!! 
                           
                          Tommy

                          From: J Smith <jason3317@...>
                          To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 1:19 PM

                          Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

                           
                          The J/28 has a higher center of gravity than other comparable J's of that era. The reason being they need to get accommodation volume into the hull on a 24' LWL. The deep fin keel, also uncommon on the cruising hulls during the time of the UFO keels, helped mitigate some the performance hit. Obviously, the SD gives a similar righting moment, at the expense of windward performance and (imho)...stiffness. I would think very hard before I bought a SD J/28. If you sail in skinny water....it may not be possible. But then I'd be looking at a J/95 or J/108.
                          From: "Tommy" <evenflow457@...>
                          Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 17:00:09 -0000
                          Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

                           
                          I sure was hoping you would have said Shoal Draft! That is a pretty sweet finish though. These boats (at least the Fin Keels) sail well to their rating.

                          Tommy

                          --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Fin keel. Took another 1st last night. Probably blowing around 15, started out with a reefed main, took it out just before rounding the leward mark on the first pass around. The last 3 weeks we have been finishing up front with a 48' Hinckley Sw, their rating is 129, they are in the big boat fleet The RC changed the starting order the last 3 weeks, the small boats are starting with the big boats, we only have 4 small boats that show up on a regular basis out of the 8 that signed up, so the 2 cruising fleets start together but are scored separately. Roy
                          > To: mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com

                          > From: evenflow457@...
                          > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 21:40:51 +0000
                          > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                          >
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                          > Roy,
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                          > Do you have the Shoal draft or the Fin keel??
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                          > Tommy
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                          >
                          > --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@> wrote:
                          >
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                          >
                          > > We have our settings at 975 uppers and 775 lowers and with the new main and mast step change are just walking away from our competition, when the wind is over 10 knots. We have the mast base fully forward this year too. The first year we had the mast back, last year it was in the middle and this year all the way forward. If the wind is 6-8 knots, we don't do so well and under 6 we do OK. Our fleet, under 30', starts 5 minutes after the over 30' and by the end of the race we have usually passed all but 2 of the big boats, they range from 30' to 42', all but one are over 35'. We have setup the boat very close to the way the J30's in Marblehead are setup, except maybe about 100 lbs or so lighter on tension. We have a fin keel, gas grill on the stern rail, dodger, cockpit table (put away under sail), anchor stowed under the starboard settee, V-berth linens all on board. We have a fair amount of headstay sag, maybe 8-10 inches in light to medium winds before we start cranking on the backstay. We reef the main at about 14-15 knots of wind and leave the 155% up, bring the leads back, crank on the back stay and pinch (and point) crazy high in the heavier winds, using the pinching to bleed off air. We have a fairly light weight crew and race with about 5-6 people in the cruising fleet, 3 are women. We have the 155 set with 3 holes showing behind the lead. We usually out point everyone by huge amounts except for an Alerion 28 and a Baby Beneteau 235. On a good day (over 10 knots) we are even boat speed with the Alerion upwind and we are always faster downwind. We usually sail in a dying breeze on Tuesday nights, it might start out around 10-12 knots and slowly craps out. Roy
                          >
                          > > To: mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com

                          >
                          > > From: jfws88@
                          >
                          > > Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 16:52:10 +0000
                          >
                          > > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
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                          > > Interesting, When Todd measured my boat for Roy's main he asked if I sail with the rig this loose. And, he really cranked the backstay for one of the measurements. I mean pully down to the hand rail tight. I'd never seem my mast bend that much. His words,"perfectly normal"
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                          > > I use the back stay alot in a breeze to help flatten the boat and ease weather helm but I never pulled it that far. Conclusion for me, my rig is too loose by all accounts here.
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                          > > Dave, I'm not sure if I'll go all the my to your tuning but I will take heed of 42 years racing J boats.
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                          >
                          > > --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
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                          > > > Tommy,
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                          > > > I have a shoal draft. With my rig tuned as described, the back stay is off all the way most of the time except cranked in on heavy puffs going upwind. To the best of my knowledge, fractional rig J's always should have the lowers tighter than the uppers. In all my years of J racing (that would be 42 years), I have never seen a J mast given way or broken. Having the lowers tighter than the uppers allows the upper third of the mast to fall off in heavy air allowing the main to dump some load and the boat sails flatter. Again, all this is for fractional rigs only.
                          >
                          > >
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                          > > >
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                          > > > Sent from my iPad
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                          > > >
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                          >
                          > > > David L. Hastings
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
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                          > >
                          >
                          > > > Home: 352-794-6440
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                          > >
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                          > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
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                          > >
                          >
                          > > >
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                          >
                          > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 8:22 AM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@> wrote:
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                          > > > > David,
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                          > > > > Do you have a shoal draft or the 5' version?
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                          > > > > That makes sense that you are faster upwind than downwind. With the rig that tight, you are not allowing it sag or bend forward when sailing downwind. However, don't ease you backstay too much downwind though. With the lowers on hard, the mast could snap in moderate conditions. I am curious though, with the lowers tighter than the uppers, do you find yourself needing to ease the main to stay powered up when sailing upwind?
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                          > > > > JP,
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                          > > > > You definitely want to move your mast step back. That gives your main better shape and allows more draft when needed in light stuff and in chop. As far as sag, on an older gennie, you can tighten your halyard a more than with a new one. This will move the draft forward as you always fighting the draft moving aft in older sails.
                          >
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                          > > > > I am getting all pumped up about these boats and I don't have one, YET!!
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                          > > > > Tommy
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                          > > > > From: David Hastings <david.hastings@>
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > > To: "mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com>
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 7:38 AM
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                          >
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                          > > > > John, pointing has always been my strength. My losses have always been down wind. I am not a numbers guy. I've always been a seat of the pants sailor. I've set up my boat the same as I tuned my J29 as follows:
                          >
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                          > > > > Head stay is at maximum length and mast has a slight rake. Mast step it not all the way forward. I'd guess it's about 1"ahead of center. Making sure everything is neutral and mast is centered, I pull on the back stay as hard and far as possible. Next, I tighten the uppers until the back stay begins to loosen a bit so the uppers are real tight. Now I release the back stay and the mast in really bent. Next I tighten the lowers until the prebend is pretty much gone and the mast looks as straight as possible. Now the lowers are tighter than the uppers and they are both pretty darn tight. I have never used a gauge. This has always worked well for me on the J29 for upwind performance in all conditions.
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                          > > > > As far as the sails go, I had a 155 on my J29 and seldom reduced sail but usually had a crew of 7. I have only a 135 on my J28 and It's in poor condition.
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                          > > > > I usually do best with the main strapped in hard and the boom slightly to windward of center. If higher pointing is needed in close situations, I pull the traveler over more to windward which, of course, slows the boat but usually allows me to get up and get by the problem.
                          >
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                          > > > > I'm still too new to the 28 to know whether or not this set up will work as well as it did on the 29 but so far it appears to be doing the trick so I'm sticking with it until I find the need of something different.
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                          > > > > Sent from my iPad
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                          > > > > David L. Hastings
                          >
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                          > > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                          >
                          > >
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                          > > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
                          >
                          > >
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                          > > > > Home: 352-794-6440
                          >
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                          > > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
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                          > > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:38 AM, John Power <sailingmaster@> wrote:
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                          > > > >> I would be interested in some accurate tuning numbers as well, particularly a rake measurement. Currently I have my mast step max forward and about 900 on my uppers and 750 on the lowers.
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                          > > > >>
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                          > > > >> I would like to see the mast bend a little lower and wonder if som blocks at the mast partner would help.
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                          > > > >>
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                          > > > >> Also how much sag do you carry in the head stay?
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                          > > > >>
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                          > > > >> I have 4-5 inches I would say and am our Iu adjustment on the RF
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                          > > > >>
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                          > > > >> I gave raced the boat much, but I know the old genoa needs to be replaced before I can comment on pointing. I use the 135 as well the 150 overpowers the boat quickly in any breeze
                          >
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                          > > > >>
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                          > > > >> JP
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                          > > > >> Sent from my iPhone
                          >
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                          > > > >>
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                          >
                          > > > >> On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:09 AM, John <jfws88@> wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>>
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                          > > > >>> Dave, Interesting, pointing has always been my weakness. Do you have any numbers on your rig set-up? And are you useing a 150% genny. I find I point best with the boom pointed at the leward backstay, not on center. I use a 135% genny and tune my rig to about 80% of the recommended J30 settings. When I don't do well in a race it's almost always due to looses upwind.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>>
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> John
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> > Haven't gotten my shoal draft J race ready yet so no formal racing to date but I have had several opportunities to buff with a local S2 racer who usually takes home the gold and I can beat the hell out of him upwind. I point higher and go faster and that's before getting my new main.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> >
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                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> > Sent from my iPad
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> > David L. Hastings
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> > Crystal River, FL 34429
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> > Home: 352-794-6440
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> > Cell: 315-345-2078
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> > On Jul 2, 2012, at 3:10 PM, "Tommy" <evenflow457@> wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> >
                          >
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                          >
                          > > > >>> > > Hey J28'ers,
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> > > Looking for more input on the racing performance of the shoal draft model? I want to mainly cruz, but i still have the "racing bug" urge to race around the bouys.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> > >
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                          > > > >>> > > Any thoughts??
                          >
                          > >
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                          > > > >>> > >
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                          > > > >>> > > Tx Tommy
                          >
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                          > > > >>> > >
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                          > > > >>> >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
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                          >
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