Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

Expand Messages
  • David Hastings
    I use this for all conditions, light to heavy. So hot shots change the rig tensions constantly. I don t! Sent from my iPad David L. Hastings 5608 W. Woodside
    Message 1 of 25 , Jul 3, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      I use this for all conditions, light to heavy. So hot shots change the rig tensions constantly. I don't!

      Sent from my iPad

      David L. Hastings
      5608 W. Woodside Dr.
      Crystal River, FL 34429
      Home: 352-794-6440
      Cell: 315-345-2078

      On Jul 3, 2012, at 1:57 PM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@...> wrote:

       

      Do you have this rig tune for light air?  That was what i was thinking.  Sorry, I was very vague in my question.
       
      that is exciting that the 28 sails well!!! 
       
       

      From: David Hastings <david.hastings@...>
      To: "J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com" <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
      Cc: "J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com" <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 10:22 AM
      Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

       
      Tommy,

      I have a shoal draft. With my rig tuned as described, the back stay is off all the way most of the time except cranked in on heavy puffs going upwind. To the best of my knowledge, fractional rig J's always should have the lowers tighter than the uppers. In all my years of J racing (that would be 42 years), I have never seen a J mast given way or broken. Having the lowers tighter than the uppers allows the upper third of the mast to fall off in heavy air allowing the main to dump some load and the boat sails flatter. Again, all this is for fractional rigs only.

      Sent from my iPad

      David L. Hastings
      5608 W. Woodside Dr.
      Crystal River, FL 34429
      Home: 352-794-6440
      Cell: 315-345-2078

      On Jul 3, 2012, at 8:22 AM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@...> wrote:

       
      David,
       
      Do you have a shoal draft or the 5' version? 
       
      That makes sense that you are faster upwind than downwind.  With the rig that tight, you are not allowing it sag or bend forward when sailing downwind.  However, don't ease you backstay too much downwind though.  With the lowers on hard, the mast could snap in moderate conditions.  I am curious though, with the lowers tighter than the uppers, do you find yourself needing to ease the main to stay powered up when sailing upwind?
       
      JP,
       
      You definitely want to move your mast step back.  That gives your main better shape and allows more draft when needed in light stuff and in chop.  As far as sag, on an older gennie, you can tighten your halyard a more than with a new one.  This will move the draft forward as you always fighting the draft moving aft in older sails.
       
      I am getting all pumped up about these boats and I don't have one, YET!!
       
      Tommy

      From: David Hastings <david.hastings@...>
      To: "J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com" <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 7:38 AM
      Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

       
      John, pointing has always been my strength. My losses have always been down wind. I am not a numbers guy. I've always been a seat of the pants sailor. I've set up my boat the same as I tuned my J29 as follows:

      Head stay is at maximum length and mast has a slight rake. Mast step it not all the way forward. I'd guess it's about 1"ahead of center. Making sure everything is neutral and mast is centered, I pull on the back stay as hard and far as possible. Next, I tighten the uppers until the back stay begins to loosen a bit so the uppers are real tight. Now I release the back stay and the mast in really bent. Next I tighten the lowers until the prebend is pretty much gone and the mast looks as straight as possible. Now the lowers are tighter than the uppers and they are both pretty darn tight. I have never used a gauge. This has always worked well for me on the J29 for upwind performance in all conditions.

      As far as the sails go, I had a 155 on my J29 and seldom reduced sail but usually had a crew of 7. I have only a 135 on my J28 and It's in poor condition.

      I usually do best with the main strapped in hard and the boom slightly to windward of center. If higher pointing is needed in close situations, I pull the traveler over more to windward which, of course, slows the boat but usually allows me to get up and get by the problem.

      I'm still too new to the 28 to know whether or not this set up will work as well as it did on the 29 but so far it appears to be doing the trick so I'm sticking with it until I find the need of something different.

      Sent from my iPad

      David L. Hastings
      5608 W. Woodside Dr.
      Crystal River, FL 34429
      Home: 352-794-6440
      Cell: 315-345-2078

      On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:38 AM, John Power <sailingmaster@...> wrote:

       
      I would be interested in some accurate tuning numbers as well, particularly a rake measurement.  Currently I have my mast step max forward and about 900 on my uppers and 750 on the lowers. 

      I would like to see the mast bend a little lower and wonder if som blocks at the mast partner would help.

      Also how much sag do you carry in the head stay?

      I have 4-5 inches I would say and am our Iu adjustment on the RF

      I gave raced the boat much, but I know the old genoa needs to be replaced before I can comment on pointing.  I use the 135 as well the 150 overpowers the boat quickly in any breeze

      JP

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:09 AM, John <jfws88@...> wrote:

       
      Dave, Interesting, pointing has always been my weakness. Do you have any numbers on your rig set-up? And are you useing a 150% genny. I find I point best with the boom pointed at the leward backstay, not on center. I use a 135% genny and tune my rig to about 80% of the recommended J30 settings. When I don't do well in a race it's almost always due to looses upwind.

      John
      --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@...> wrote:
      >
      > Haven't gotten my shoal draft J race ready yet so no formal racing to date but I have had several opportunities to buff with a local S2 racer who usually takes home the gold and I can beat the hell out of him upwind. I point higher and go faster and that's before getting my new main.
      >
      > Sent from my iPad
      >
      > David L. Hastings
      > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
      > Crystal River, FL 34429
      > Home: 352-794-6440
      > Cell: 315-345-2078
      >
      > On Jul 2, 2012, at 3:10 PM, "Tommy" <evenflow457@...> wrote:
      >
      > > Hey J28'ers,
      > >
      > > Looking for more input on the racing performance of the shoal draft model? I want to mainly cruz, but i still have the "racing bug" urge to race around the bouys.
      > >
      > > Any thoughts??
      > >
      > > Tx Tommy
      > >
      > >
      >
      > __________________________________________________________
      > NetZero now offers 4G mobile broadband. Sign up now.
      > http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT1
      >



      ____________________________________________________________
      5 Diet Pills that Work
      2012's Top 5 Weight Loss Pills. Updated Consumer Ratings. Free Report.
      DietRatings.org




      ____________________________________________________________
      53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
      The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
      consumerproducts.com




      ____________________________________________________________
      53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
      The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
      consumerproducts.com
    • John Power
      all i can say is that i have not raced the boat yet, but, even with an OLDE genny and questionable rig tune, the 28 is out perfroming most of the similar boats
      Message 2 of 25 , Jul 3, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        all i can say is that i have not raced the boat yet, but, even with an OLDE genny and questionable rig tune, the 28 is out perfroming most of the similar boats I sail near.

        I do think she should point higher...my experience is 25 years in thistles and similar dinghies though.....all I can say is after 25 years of those boats, this is the ONLY cruiser in my budget to consider and after 2 years I am very pleased with here sailing qualites....why they only made 71?  I cant imagine the logic!

        JP
        On Jul 3, 2012, at 1:57 PM, Tommy Koe wrote:

         

        Do you have this rig tune for light air?  That was what i was thinking.  Sorry, I was very vague in my question.
         
        that is exciting that the 28 sails well!!! 
         
         

        From: David Hastings <david.hastings@...>
        To: "J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com" <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
        Cc: "J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com" <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 10:22 AM
        Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

         
        Tommy,

        I have a shoal draft. With my rig tuned as described, the back stay is off all the way most of the time except cranked in on heavy puffs going upwind. To the best of my knowledge, fractional rig J's always should have the lowers tighter than the uppers. In all my years of J racing (that would be 42 years), I have never seen a J mast given way or broken. Having the lowers tighter than the uppers allows the upper third of the mast to fall off in heavy air allowing the main to dump some load and the boat sails flatter. Again, all this is for fractional rigs only.

        Sent from my iPad

        David L. Hastings
        5608 W. Woodside Dr.
        Crystal River, FL 34429
        Home: 352-794-6440
        Cell: 315-345-2078

        On Jul 3, 2012, at 8:22 AM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@...> wrote:

         
        David,
         
        Do you have a shoal draft or the 5' version? 
         
        That makes sense that you are faster upwind than downwind.  With the rig that tight, you are not allowing it sag or bend forward when sailing downwind.  However, don't ease you backstay too much downwind though.  With the lowers on hard, the mast could snap in moderate conditions.  I am curious though, with the lowers tighter than the uppers, do you find yourself needing to ease the main to stay powered up when sailing upwind?
         
        JP,
         
        You definitely want to move your mast step back.  That gives your main better shape and allows more draft when needed in light stuff and in chop.  As far as sag, on an older gennie, you can tighten your halyard a more than with a new one.  This will move the draft forward as you always fighting the draft moving aft in older sails.
         
        I am getting all pumped up about these boats and I don't have one, YET!!
         
        Tommy

        From: David Hastings <david.hastings@...>
        To: "J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com" <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 7:38 AM
        Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

         
        John, pointing has always been my strength. My losses have always been down wind. I am not a numbers guy. I've always been a seat of the pants sailor. I've set up my boat the same as I tuned my J29 as follows:

        Head stay is at maximum length and mast has a slight rake. Mast step it not all the way forward. I'd guess it's about 1"ahead of center. Making sure everything is neutral and mast is centered, I pull on the back stay as hard and far as possible. Next, I tighten the uppers until the back stay begins to loosen a bit so the uppers are real tight. Now I release the back stay and the mast in really bent. Next I tighten the lowers until the prebend is pretty much gone and the mast looks as straight as possible. Now the lowers are tighter than the uppers and they are both pretty darn tight. I have never used a gauge. This has always worked well for me on the J29 for upwind performance in all conditions.

        As far as the sails go, I had a 155 on my J29 and seldom reduced sail but usually had a crew of 7. I have only a 135 on my J28 and It's in poor condition.

        I usually do best with the main strapped in hard and the boom slightly to windward of center. If higher pointing is needed in close situations, I pull the traveler over more to windward which, of course, slows the boat but usually allows me to get up and get by the problem.

        I'm still too new to the 28 to know whether or not this set up will work as well as it did on the 29 but so far it appears to be doing the trick so I'm sticking with it until I find the need of something different.

        Sent from my iPad

        David L. Hastings
        5608 W. Woodside Dr.
        Crystal River, FL 34429
        Home: 352-794-6440
        Cell: 315-345-2078

        On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:38 AM, John Power <sailingmaster@...> wrote:

         
        I would be interested in some accurate tuning numbers as well, particularly a rake measurement.  Currently I have my mast step max forward and about 900 on my uppers and 750 on the lowers. 

        I would like to see the mast bend a little lower and wonder if som blocks at the mast partner would help.

        Also how much sag do you carry in the head stay?

        I have 4-5 inches I would say and am our Iu adjustment on the RF

        I gave raced the boat much, but I know the old genoa needs to be replaced before I can comment on pointing.  I use the 135 as well the 150 overpowers the boat quickly in any breeze

        JP

        Sent from my iPhone

        On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:09 AM, John <jfws88@...> wrote:

         
        Dave, Interesting, pointing has always been my weakness. Do you have any numbers on your rig set-up? And are you useing a 150% genny. I find I point best with the boom pointed at the leward backstay, not on center. I use a 135% genny and tune my rig to about 80% of the recommended J30 settings. When I don't do well in a race it's almost always due to looses upwind.

        John
        --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@...> wrote:
        >
        > Haven't gotten my shoal draft J race ready yet so no formal racing to date but I have had several opportunities to buff with a local S2 racer who usually takes home the gold and I can beat the hell out of him upwind. I point higher and go faster and that's before getting my new main.
        >
        > Sent from my iPad
        >
        > David L. Hastings
        > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
        > Crystal River, FL 34429
        > Home: 352-794-6440
        > Cell: 315-345-2078
        >
        > On Jul 2, 2012, at 3:10 PM, "Tommy" <evenflow457@...> wrote:
        >
        > > Hey J28'ers,
        > >
        > > Looking for more input on the racing performance of the shoal draft model? I want to mainly cruz, but i still have the "racing bug" urge to race around the bouys.
        > >
        > > Any thoughts??
        > >
        > > Tx Tommy
        > >
        > >
        >
        > __________________________________________________________
        > NetZero now offers 4G mobile broadband. Sign up now.
        > http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT1
        >



        ____________________________________________________________
        5 Diet Pills that Work
        2012's Top 5 Weight Loss Pills. Updated Consumer Ratings. Free Report.
        DietRatings.org




        ____________________________________________________________
        53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
        The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
        consumerproducts.com




      • Hans Andersen
        Hi all J 28 sailors I lost the Cap for the fresh water tank filler, any idea what make it is and where i may get one? Hans J 28 Last Dance ... From: John
        Message 3 of 25 , Jul 4, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi all J 28 sailors
          I lost the Cap for the fresh water tank filler,
          any idea what make it is and where i may get one?
          Hans
          J 28 "Last Dance"
          ---- Original Message ----
          From: John Power <sailingmaster@...>
          To: J28Sailors <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tue, Jul 3, 2012 9:39 pm
          Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

           
          all i can say is that i have not raced the boat yet, but, even with an OLDE genny and questionable rig tune, the 28 is out perfroming most of the similar boats I sail near.

          I do think she should point higher...my experience is 25 years in thistles and similar dinghies though.....all I can say is after 25 years of those boats, this is the ONLY cruiser in my budget to consider and after 2 years I am very pleased with here sailing qualites....why they only made 71?  I cant imagine the logic!

          JP
          On Jul 3, 2012, at 1:57 PM, Tommy Koe wrote:

           

          Do you have this rig tune for light air?  That was what i was thinking.  Sorry, I was very vague in my question.
           
          that is exciting that the 28 sails well!!! 
           
           

          From: David Hastings <david.hastings@...>
          To: "J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com" <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
          Cc: "J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com" <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 10:22 AM
          Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

           
          Tommy,

          I have a shoal draft. With my rig tuned as described, the back stay is off all the way most of the time except cranked in on heavy puffs going upwind. To the best of my knowledge, fractional rig J's always should have the lowers tighter than the uppers. In all my years of J racing (that would be 42 years), I have never seen a J mast given way or broken. Having the lowers tighter than the uppers allows the upper third of the mast to fall off in heavy air allowing the main to dump some load and the boat sails flatter. Again, all this is for fractional rigs only.

          Sent from my iPad

          David L. Hastings
          5608 W. Woodside Dr.
          Crystal River, FL 34429
          Home: 352-794-6440
          Cell: 315-345-2078

          On Jul 3, 2012, at 8:22 AM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@...> wrote:

           
          David,
           
          Do you have a shoal draft or the 5' version? 
           
          That makes sense that you are faster upwind than downwind.  With the rig that tight, you are not allowing it sag or bend forward when sailing downwind.  However, don't ease you backstay too much downwind though.  With the lowers on hard, the mast could snap in moderate conditions.  I am curious though, with the lowers tighter than the uppers, do you find yourself needing to ease the main to stay powered up when sailing upwind?
           
          JP,
           
          You definitely want to move your mast step back.  That gives your main better shape and allows more draft when needed in light stuff and in chop.  As far as sag, on an older gennie, you can tighten your halyard a more than with a new one.  This will move the draft forward as you always fighting the draft moving aft in older sails.
           
          I am getting all pumped up about these boats and I don't have one, YET!!
           
          Tommy

          From: David Hastings <david.hastings@...>
          To: "J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com" <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 7:38 AM
          Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

           
          John, pointing has always been my strength. My losses have always been down wind. I am not a numbers guy. I've always been a seat of the pants sailor. I've set up my boat the same as I tuned my J29 as follows:

          Head stay is at maximum length and mast has a slight rake. Mast step it not all the way forward. I'd guess it's about 1"ahead of center. Making sure everything is neutral and mast is centered, I pull on the back stay as hard and far as possible. Next, I tighten the uppers until the back stay begins to loosen a bit so the uppers are real tight. Now I release the back stay and the mast in really bent. Next I tighten the lowers until the prebend is pretty much gone and the mast looks as straight as possible. Now the lowers are tighter than the uppers and they are both pretty darn tight. I have never used a gauge. This has always worked well for me on the J29 for upwind performance in all conditions.

          As far as the sails go, I had a 155 on my J29 and seldom reduced sail but usually had a crew of 7. I have only a 135 on my J28 and It's in poor condition.

          I usually do best with the main strapped in hard and the boom slightly to windward of center. If higher pointing is needed in close situations, I pull the traveler over more to windward which, of course, slows the boat but usually allows me to get up and get by the problem.

          I'm still too new to the 28 to know whether or not this set up will work as well as it did on the 29 but so far it appears to be doing the trick so I'm sticking with it until I find the need of something different.

          Sent from my iPad

          David L. Hastings
          5608 W. Woodside Dr.
          Crystal River, FL 34429
          Home: 352-794-6440
          Cell: 315-345-2078

          On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:38 AM, John Power <sailingmaster@...> wrote:

           
          I would be interested in some accurate tuning numbers as well, particularly a rake measurement.  Currently I have my mast step max forward and about 900 on my uppers and 750 on the lowers. 

          I would like to see the mast bend a little lower and wonder if som blocks at the mast partner would help.

          Also how much sag do you carry in the head stay?

          I have 4-5 inches I would say and am our Iu adjustment on the RF

          I gave raced the boat much, but I know the old genoa needs to be replaced before I can comment on pointing.  I use the 135 as well the 150 overpowers the boat quickly in any breeze

          JP

          Sent from my iPhone

          On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:09 AM, John <jfws88@...> wrote:

           
          Dave, Interesting, pointing has always been my weakness. Do you have any numbers on your rig set-up? And are you useing a 150% genny. I find I point best with the boom pointed at the leward backstay, not on center. I use a 135% genny and tune my rig to about 80% of the recommended J30 settings. When I don't do well in a race it's almost always due to looses upwind.

          John
          --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@...> wrote:
          >
          > Haven't gotten my shoal draft J race ready yet so no formal racing to date but I have had several opportunities to buff with a local S2 racer who usually takes home the gold and I can beat the hell out of him upwind. I point higher and go faster and that's before getting my new main.
          >
          > Sent from my iPad
          >
          > David L. Hastings
          > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
          > Crystal River, FL 34429
          > Home: 352-794-6440
          > Cell: 315-345-2078
          >
          > On Jul 2, 2012, at 3:10 PM, "Tommy" <evenflow457@...> wrote:
          >
          > > Hey J28'ers,
          > >
          > > Looking for more input on the racing performance of the shoal draft model? I want to mainly cruz, but i still have the "racing bug" urge to race around the bouys.
          > >
          > > Any thoughts??
          > >
          > > Tx Tommy
          > >
          > >
          >
          > __________________________________________________________
          > NetZero now offers 4G mobile broadband. Sign up now.
          > http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT1
          >



          _________________________________________________ ___________
          5 Diet Pills that Work
          2012's Top 5 Weight Loss Pills. Updated Consumer Ratings. Free Report.
          DietRatings.org




          ____________________________________________________________
          53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
          The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
          consumerproducts.com




        • Roy Briscoe
          We have our settings at 975 uppers and 775 lowers and with the new main and mast step change are just walking away from our competition, when the wind is over
          Message 4 of 25 , Jul 5, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            We have our settings at 975 uppers and 775 lowers and with the new main and mast step change are just walking away from our competition, when the wind is over 10 knots. We have the mast base fully forward this year too. The first year we had the mast back, last year it was in the middle and this year all the way forward. If the wind is 6-8 knots, we don't do so well and under 6 we do OK. Our fleet, under 30', starts 5 minutes after the over 30' and by the end of the race we have usually passed all but 2 of the big boats, they range from 30' to 42', all but one are over 35'. We have setup the boat very close to the way the J30's in Marblehead are setup, except maybe about 100 lbs or so lighter on tension. We have a fin keel, gas grill on the stern rail, dodger, cockpit table (put away under sail), anchor stowed under the starboard settee, V-berth linens all on board. 
             
            We have a fair amount of headstay sag, maybe 8-10 inches in light to medium winds before we start cranking on the backstay. We reef the main at about 14-15 knots of wind and leave the 155% up, bring the leads back, crank on the back stay and pinch (and point) crazy high in the heavier winds, using the pinching to bleed off air.  We have a fairly light weight crew and race with about 5-6 people in the cruising fleet, 3 are women. We have the 155 set with 3 holes showing behind the lead. We usually out point everyone by huge amounts except for an Alerion 28 and a Baby Beneteau 235. On a good day (over 10 knots) we are even boat speed with the Alerion upwind and we are always faster downwind. We usually sail in a dying breeze on Tuesday nights, it might start out around 10-12 knots and slowly craps out.
             
            Roy
             

            To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
            From: jfws88@...
            Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 16:52:10 +0000
            Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

             
            Interesting, When Todd measured my boat for Roy's main he asked if I sail with the rig this loose. And, he really cranked the backstay for one of the measurements. I mean pully down to the hand rail tight. I'd never seem my mast bend that much. His words,"perfectly normal"
            I use the back stay alot in a breeze to help flatten the boat and ease weather helm but I never pulled it that far. Conclusion for me, my rig is too loose by all accounts here.

            Dave, I'm not sure if I'll go all the my to your tuning but I will take heed of 42 years racing J boats.

            --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@...> wrote:
            >
            > Tommy,
            >
            > I have a shoal draft. With my rig tuned as described, the back stay is off all the way most of the time except cranked in on heavy puffs going upwind. To the best of my knowledge, fractional rig J's always should have the lowers tighter than the uppers. In all my years of J racing (that would be 42 years), I have never seen a J mast given way or broken. Having the lowers tighter than the uppers allows the upper third of the mast to fall off in heavy air allowing the main to dump some load and the boat sails flatter. Again, all this is for fractional rigs only.
            >
            > Sent from my iPad
            >
            > David L. Hastings
            > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
            > Crystal River, FL 34429
            > Home: 352-794-6440
            > Cell: 315-345-2078
            >
            > On Jul 3, 2012, at 8:22 AM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@...> wrote:
            >
            > > David,
            > >
            > > Do you have a shoal draft or the 5' version?
            > >
            > > That makes sense that you are faster upwind than downwind. With the rig that tight, you are not allowing it sag or bend forward when sailing downwind. However, don't ease you backstay too much downwind though. With the lowers on hard, the mast could snap in moderate conditions. I am curious though, with the lowers tighter than the uppers, do you find yourself needing to ease the main to stay powered up when sailing upwind?
            > >
            > > JP,
            > >
            > > You definitely want to move your mast step back. That gives your main better shape and allows more draft when needed in light stuff and in chop. As far as sag, on an older gennie, you can tighten your halyard a more than with a new one. This will move the draft forward as you always fighting the draft moving aft in older sails.
            > >
            > > I am getting all pumped up about these boats and I don't have one, YET!!
            > >
            > > Tommy
            > >
            > > From: David Hastings <david.hastings@...>
            > > To: "J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com" <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
            > > Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 7:38 AM
            > > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
            > >
            > >
            > > John, pointing has always been my strength. My losses have always been down wind. I am not a numbers guy. I've always been a seat of the pants sailor. I've set up my boat the same as I tuned my J29 as follows:
            > >
            > > Head stay is at maximum length and mast has a slight rake. Mast step it not all the way forward. I'd guess it's about 1"ahead of center. Making sure everything is neutral and mast is centered, I pull on the back stay as hard and far as possible. Next, I tighten the uppers until the back stay begins to loosen a bit so the uppers are real tight. Now I release the back stay and the mast in really bent. Next I tighten the lowers until the prebend is pretty much gone and the mast looks as straight as possible. Now the lowers are tighter than the uppers and they are both pretty darn tight. I have never used a gauge. This has always worked well for me on the J29 for upwind performance in all conditions.
            > >
            > > As far as the sails go, I had a 155 on my J29 and seldom reduced sail but usually had a crew of 7. I have only a 135 on my J28 and It's in poor condition.
            > >
            > > I usually do best with the main strapped in hard and the boom slightly to windward of center. If higher pointing is needed in close situations, I pull the traveler over more to windward which, of course, slows the boat but usually allows me to get up and get by the problem.
            > >
            > > I'm still too new to the 28 to know whether or not this set up will work as well as it did on the 29 but so far it appears to be doing the trick so I'm sticking with it until I find the need of something different.
            > >
            > > Sent from my iPad
            > >
            > > David L. Hastings
            > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
            > > Crystal River, FL 34429
            > > Home: 352-794-6440
            > > Cell: 315-345-2078
            > >
            > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:38 AM, John Power <sailingmaster@...> wrote:
            > >
            > >>
            > >> I would be interested in some accurate tuning numbers as well, particularly a rake measurement. Currently I have my mast step max forward and about 900 on my uppers and 750 on the lowers.
            > >>
            > >> I would like to see the mast bend a little lower and wonder if som blocks at the mast partner would help.
            > >>
            > >> Also how much sag do you carry in the head stay?
            > >>
            > >> I have 4-5 inches I would say and am our Iu adjustment on the RF
            > >>
            > >> I gave raced the boat much, but I know the old genoa needs to be replaced before I can comment on pointing. I use the 135 as well the 150 overpowers the boat quickly in any breeze
            > >>
            > >> JP
            > >>
            > >> Sent from my iPhone
            > >>
            > >> On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:09 AM, John <jfws88@...> wrote:
            > >>
            > >>>
            > >>> Dave, Interesting, pointing has always been my weakness. Do you have any numbers on your rig set-up? And are you useing a 150% genny. I find I point best with the boom pointed at the leward backstay, not on center. I use a 135% genny and tune my rig to about 80% of the recommended J30 settings. When I don't do well in a race it's almost always due to looses upwind.
            > >>>
            > >>> John
            > >>> --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
            > >>> >
            > >>> > Haven't gotten my shoal draft J race ready yet so no formal racing to date but I have had several opportunities to buff with a local S2 racer who usually takes home the gold and I can beat the hell out of him upwind. I point higher and go faster and that's before getting my new main.
            > >>> >
            > >>> > Sent from my iPad
            > >>> >
            > >>> > David L. Hastings
            > >>> > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
            > >>> > Crystal River, FL 34429
            > >>> > Home: 352-794-6440
            > >>> > Cell: 315-345-2078
            > >>> >
            > >>> > On Jul 2, 2012, at 3:10 PM, "Tommy" <evenflow457@> wrote:
            > >>> >
            > >>> > > Hey J28'ers,
            > >>> > >
            > >>> > > Looking for more input on the racing performance of the shoal draft model? I want to mainly cruz, but i still have the "racing bug" urge to race around the bouys.
            > >>> > >
            > >>> > > Any thoughts??
            > >>> > >
            > >>> > > Tx Tommy
            > >>> > >
            > >>> > >
            > >>> >
            > >>> > __________________________________________________________
            > >>> > NetZero now offers 4G mobile broadband. Sign up now.
            > >>> > http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT1
            > >>> >
            > >>>
            > >
            > >
            > > __________________________________________________________
            > > 5 Diet Pills that Work
            > > 2012's Top 5 Weight Loss Pills. Updated Consumer Ratings. Free Report.
            > > DietRatings.org
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > __________________________________________________________
            > 53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
            > The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
            > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4ff300315ee2f2f7de2st51duc
            >


          • Tommy
            Roy, Do you have the Shoal draft or the Fin keel?? Tommy
            Message 5 of 25 , Jul 17, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              Roy,

              Do you have the Shoal draft or the Fin keel??

              Tommy

              --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > We have our settings at 975 uppers and 775 lowers and with the new main and mast step change are just walking away from our competition, when the wind is over 10 knots. We have the mast base fully forward this year too. The first year we had the mast back, last year it was in the middle and this year all the way forward. If the wind is 6-8 knots, we don't do so well and under 6 we do OK. Our fleet, under 30', starts 5 minutes after the over 30' and by the end of the race we have usually passed all but 2 of the big boats, they range from 30' to 42', all but one are over 35'. We have setup the boat very close to the way the J30's in Marblehead are setup, except maybe about 100 lbs or so lighter on tension. We have a fin keel, gas grill on the stern rail, dodger, cockpit table (put away under sail), anchor stowed under the starboard settee, V-berth linens all on board. We have a fair amount of headstay sag, maybe 8-10 inches in light to medium winds before we start cranking on the backstay. We reef the main at about 14-15 knots of wind and leave the 155% up, bring the leads back, crank on the back stay and pinch (and point) crazy high in the heavier winds, using the pinching to bleed off air. We have a fairly light weight crew and race with about 5-6 people in the cruising fleet, 3 are women. We have the 155 set with 3 holes showing behind the lead. We usually out point everyone by huge amounts except for an Alerion 28 and a Baby Beneteau 235. On a good day (over 10 knots) we are even boat speed with the Alerion upwind and we are always faster downwind. We usually sail in a dying breeze on Tuesday nights, it might start out around 10-12 knots and slowly craps out. Roy
              > To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
              > From: jfws88@...
              > Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 16:52:10 +0000
              > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Interesting, When Todd measured my boat for Roy's main he asked if I sail with the rig this loose. And, he really cranked the backstay for one of the measurements. I mean pully down to the hand rail tight. I'd never seem my mast bend that much. His words,"perfectly normal"
              >
              > I use the back stay alot in a breeze to help flatten the boat and ease weather helm but I never pulled it that far. Conclusion for me, my rig is too loose by all accounts here.
              >
              >
              >
              > Dave, I'm not sure if I'll go all the my to your tuning but I will take heed of 42 years racing J boats.
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Tommy,
              >
              > >
              >
              > > I have a shoal draft. With my rig tuned as described, the back stay is off all the way most of the time except cranked in on heavy puffs going upwind. To the best of my knowledge, fractional rig J's always should have the lowers tighter than the uppers. In all my years of J racing (that would be 42 years), I have never seen a J mast given way or broken. Having the lowers tighter than the uppers allows the upper third of the mast to fall off in heavy air allowing the main to dump some load and the boat sails flatter. Again, all this is for fractional rigs only.
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Sent from my iPad
              >
              > >
              >
              > > David L. Hastings
              >
              > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
              >
              > > Crystal River, FL 34429
              >
              > > Home: 352-794-6440
              >
              > > Cell: 315-345-2078
              >
              > >
              >
              > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 8:22 AM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@> wrote:
              >
              > >
              >
              > > > David,
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > > Do you have a shoal draft or the 5' version?
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > > That makes sense that you are faster upwind than downwind. With the rig that tight, you are not allowing it sag or bend forward when sailing downwind. However, don't ease you backstay too much downwind though. With the lowers on hard, the mast could snap in moderate conditions. I am curious though, with the lowers tighter than the uppers, do you find yourself needing to ease the main to stay powered up when sailing upwind?
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > > JP,
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > > You definitely want to move your mast step back. That gives your main better shape and allows more draft when needed in light stuff and in chop. As far as sag, on an older gennie, you can tighten your halyard a more than with a new one. This will move the draft forward as you always fighting the draft moving aft in older sails.
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > > I am getting all pumped up about these boats and I don't have one, YET!!
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > > Tommy
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > > From: David Hastings <david.hastings@>
              >
              > > > To: "J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com" <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
              >
              > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 7:38 AM
              >
              > > > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > > John, pointing has always been my strength. My losses have always been down wind. I am not a numbers guy. I've always been a seat of the pants sailor. I've set up my boat the same as I tuned my J29 as follows:
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > > Head stay is at maximum length and mast has a slight rake. Mast step it not all the way forward. I'd guess it's about 1"ahead of center. Making sure everything is neutral and mast is centered, I pull on the back stay as hard and far as possible. Next, I tighten the uppers until the back stay begins to loosen a bit so the uppers are real tight. Now I release the back stay and the mast in really bent. Next I tighten the lowers until the prebend is pretty much gone and the mast looks as straight as possible. Now the lowers are tighter than the uppers and they are both pretty darn tight. I have never used a gauge. This has always worked well for me on the J29 for upwind performance in all conditions.
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > > As far as the sails go, I had a 155 on my J29 and seldom reduced sail but usually had a crew of 7. I have only a 135 on my J28 and It's in poor condition.
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > > I usually do best with the main strapped in hard and the boom slightly to windward of center. If higher pointing is needed in close situations, I pull the traveler over more to windward which, of course, slows the boat but usually allows me to get up and get by the problem.
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > > I'm still too new to the 28 to know whether or not this set up will work as well as it did on the 29 but so far it appears to be doing the trick so I'm sticking with it until I find the need of something different.
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > > Sent from my iPad
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > > David L. Hastings
              >
              > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
              >
              > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
              >
              > > > Home: 352-794-6440
              >
              > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:38 AM, John Power <sailingmaster@> wrote:
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > >>
              >
              > > >> I would be interested in some accurate tuning numbers as well, particularly a rake measurement. Currently I have my mast step max forward and about 900 on my uppers and 750 on the lowers.
              >
              > > >>
              >
              > > >> I would like to see the mast bend a little lower and wonder if som blocks at the mast partner would help.
              >
              > > >>
              >
              > > >> Also how much sag do you carry in the head stay?
              >
              > > >>
              >
              > > >> I have 4-5 inches I would say and am our Iu adjustment on the RF
              >
              > > >>
              >
              > > >> I gave raced the boat much, but I know the old genoa needs to be replaced before I can comment on pointing. I use the 135 as well the 150 overpowers the boat quickly in any breeze
              >
              > > >>
              >
              > > >> JP
              >
              > > >>
              >
              > > >> Sent from my iPhone
              >
              > > >>
              >
              > > >> On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:09 AM, John <jfws88@> wrote:
              >
              > > >>
              >
              > > >>>
              >
              > > >>> Dave, Interesting, pointing has always been my weakness. Do you have any numbers on your rig set-up? And are you useing a 150% genny. I find I point best with the boom pointed at the leward backstay, not on center. I use a 135% genny and tune my rig to about 80% of the recommended J30 settings. When I don't do well in a race it's almost always due to looses upwind.
              >
              > > >>>
              >
              > > >>> John
              >
              > > >>> --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
              >
              > > >>> >
              >
              > > >>> > Haven't gotten my shoal draft J race ready yet so no formal racing to date but I have had several opportunities to buff with a local S2 racer who usually takes home the gold and I can beat the hell out of him upwind. I point higher and go faster and that's before getting my new main.
              >
              > > >>> >
              >
              > > >>> > Sent from my iPad
              >
              > > >>> >
              >
              > > >>> > David L. Hastings
              >
              > > >>> > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
              >
              > > >>> > Crystal River, FL 34429
              >
              > > >>> > Home: 352-794-6440
              >
              > > >>> > Cell: 315-345-2078
              >
              > > >>> >
              >
              > > >>> > On Jul 2, 2012, at 3:10 PM, "Tommy" <evenflow457@> wrote:
              >
              > > >>> >
              >
              > > >>> > > Hey J28'ers,
              >
              > > >>> > >
              >
              > > >>> > > Looking for more input on the racing performance of the shoal draft model? I want to mainly cruz, but i still have the "racing bug" urge to race around the bouys.
              >
              > > >>> > >
              >
              > > >>> > > Any thoughts??
              >
              > > >>> > >
              >
              > > >>> > > Tx Tommy
              >
              > > >>> > >
              >
              > > >>> > >
              >
              > > >>> >
              >
              > > >>> > __________________________________________________________
              >
              > > >>> > NetZero now offers 4G mobile broadband. Sign up now.
              >
              > > >>> > http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT1
              >
              > > >>> >
              >
              > > >>>
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > > __________________________________________________________
              >
              > > > 5 Diet Pills that Work
              >
              > > > 2012's Top 5 Weight Loss Pills. Updated Consumer Ratings. Free Report.
              >
              > > > DietRatings.org
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > >
              >
              > > __________________________________________________________
              >
              > > 53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
              >
              > > The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
              >
              > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4ff300315ee2f2f7de2st51duc
              >
              > >
              >
            • Roy Briscoe
              Fin keel. Took another 1st last night. Probably blowing around 15, started out with a reefed main, took it out just before rounding the leward mark on the
              Message 6 of 25 , Jul 18, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                Fin keel.  Took another 1st last night. Probably blowing around 15, started out with a reefed main, took it out just before rounding the leward mark on the first pass around. The last 3 weeks we have been finishing up front with a 48' Hinckley Sw, their rating is 129, they are in the big boat fleet The RC changed the starting order the last 3 weeks, the small boats are starting with the big boats, we only have 4 small boats that show up on a regular basis out of the 8 that signed up, so the 2 cruising fleets start together but are scored separately.
                 
                Roy
                 

                To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                From: evenflow457@...
                Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 21:40:51 +0000
                Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

                 
                Roy,

                Do you have the Shoal draft or the Fin keel??

                Tommy

                --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > We have our settings at 975 uppers and 775 lowers and with the new main and mast step change are just walking away from our competition, when the wind is over 10 knots. We have the mast base fully forward this year too. The first year we had the mast back, last year it was in the middle and this year all the way forward. If the wind is 6-8 knots, we don't do so well and under 6 we do OK. Our fleet, under 30', starts 5 minutes after the over 30' and by the end of the race we have usually passed all but 2 of the big boats, they range from 30' to 42', all but one are over 35'. We have setup the boat very close to the way the J30's in Marblehead are setup, except maybe about 100 lbs or so lighter on tension. We have a fin keel, gas grill on the stern rail, dodger, cockpit table (put away under sail), anchor stowed under the starboard settee, V-berth linens all on board. We have a fair amount of headstay sag, maybe 8-10 inches in light to medium winds before we start cranking on the backstay. We reef the main at about 14-15 knots of wind and leave the 155% up, bring the leads back, crank on the back stay and pinch (and point) crazy high in the heavier winds, using the pinching to bleed off air. We have a fairly light weight crew and race with about 5-6 people in the cruising fleet, 3 are women. We have the 155 set with 3 holes showing behind the lead. We usually out point everyone by huge amounts except for an Alerion 28 and a Baby Beneteau 235. On a good day (over 10 knots) we are even boat speed with the Alerion upwind and we are always faster downwind. We usually sail in a dying breeze on Tuesday nights, it might start out around 10-12 knots and slowly craps out. Roy
                > To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                > From: jfws88@...
                > Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 16:52:10 +0000
                > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Interesting, When Todd measured my boat for Roy's main he asked if I sail with the rig this loose. And, he really cranked the backstay for one of the measurements. I mean pully down to the hand rail tight. I'd never seem my mast bend that much. His words,"perfectly normal"
                >
                > I use the back stay alot in a breeze to help flatten the boat and ease weather helm but I never pulled it that far. Conclusion for me, my rig is too loose by all accounts here.
                >
                >
                >
                > Dave, I'm not sure if I'll go all the my to your tuning but I will take heed of 42 years racing J boats.
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Tommy,
                >
                > >
                >
                > > I have a shoal draft. With my rig tuned as described, the back stay is off all the way most of the time except cranked in on heavy puffs going upwind. To the best of my knowledge, fractional rig J's always should have the lowers tighter than the uppers. In all my years of J racing (that would be 42 years), I have never seen a J mast given way or broken. Having the lowers tighter than the uppers allows the upper third of the mast to fall off in heavy air allowing the main to dump some load and the boat sails flatter. Again, all this is for fractional rigs only.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Sent from my iPad
                >
                > >
                >
                > > David L. Hastings
                >
                > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                >
                > > Crystal River, FL 34429
                >
                > > Home: 352-794-6440
                >
                > > Cell: 315-345-2078
                >
                > >
                >
                > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 8:22 AM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@> wrote:
                >
                > >
                >
                > > > David,
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > > Do you have a shoal draft or the 5' version?
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > > That makes sense that you are faster upwind than downwind. With the rig that tight, you are not allowing it sag or bend forward when sailing downwind. However, don't ease you backstay too much downwind though. With the lowers on hard, the mast could snap in moderate conditions. I am curious though, with the lowers tighter than the uppers, do you find yourself needing to ease the main to stay powered up when sailing upwind?
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > > JP,
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > > You definitely want to move your mast step back. That gives your main better shape and allows more draft when needed in light stuff and in chop. As far as sag, on an older gennie, you can tighten your halyard a more than with a new one. This will move the draft forward as you always fighting the draft moving aft in older sails.
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > > I am getting all pumped up about these boats and I don't have one, YET!!
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > > Tommy
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > > From: David Hastings <david.hastings@>
                >
                > > > To: "J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com" <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
                >
                > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 7:38 AM
                >
                > > > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > > John, pointing has always been my strength. My losses have always been down wind. I am not a numbers guy. I've always been a seat of the pants sailor. I've set up my boat the same as I tuned my J29 as follows:
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > > Head stay is at maximum length and mast has a slight rake. Mast step it not all the way forward. I'd guess it's about 1"ahead of center. Making sure everything is neutral and mast is centered, I pull on the back stay as hard and far as possible. Next, I tighten the uppers until the back stay begins to loosen a bit so the uppers are real tight. Now I release the back stay and the mast in really bent. Next I tighten the lowers until the prebend is pretty much gone and the mast looks as straight as possible. Now the lowers are tighter than the uppers and they are both pretty darn tight. I have never used a gauge. This has always worked well for me on the J29 for upwind performance in all conditions.
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > > As far as the sails go, I had a 155 on my J29 and seldom reduced sail but usually had a crew of 7. I have only a 135 on my J28 and It's in poor condition.
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > > I usually do best with the main strapped in hard and the boom slightly to windward of center. If higher pointing is needed in close situations, I pull the traveler over more to windward which, of course, slows the boat but usually allows me to get up and get by the problem.
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > > I'm still too new to the 28 to know whether or not this set up will work as well as it did on the 29 but so far it appears to be doing the trick so I'm sticking with it until I find the need of something different.
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > > Sent from my iPad
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > > David L. Hastings
                >
                > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                >
                > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
                >
                > > > Home: 352-794-6440
                >
                > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:38 AM, John Power <sailingmaster@> wrote:
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > >>
                >
                > > >> I would be interested in some accurate tuning numbers as well, particularly a rake measurement. Currently I have my mast step max forward and about 900 on my uppers and 750 on the lowers.
                >
                > > >>
                >
                > > >> I would like to see the mast bend a little lower and wonder if som blocks at the mast partner would help.
                >
                > > >>
                >
                > > >> Also how much sag do you carry in the head stay?
                >
                > > >>
                >
                > > >> I have 4-5 inches I would say and am our Iu adjustment on the RF
                >
                > > >>
                >
                > > >> I gave raced the boat much, but I know the old genoa needs to be replaced before I can comment on pointing. I use the 135 as well the 150 overpowers the boat quickly in any breeze
                >
                > > >>
                >
                > > >> JP
                >
                > > >>
                >
                > > >> Sent from my iPhone
                >
                > > >>
                >
                > > >> On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:09 AM, John <jfws88@> wrote:
                >
                > > >>
                >
                > > >>>
                >
                > > >>> Dave, Interesting, pointing has always been my weakness. Do you have any numbers on your rig set-up? And are you useing a 150% genny. I find I point best with the boom pointed at the leward backstay, not on center. I use a 135% genny and tune my rig to about 80% of the recommended J30 settings. When I don't do well in a race it's almost always due to looses upwind.
                >
                > > >>>
                >
                > > >>> John
                >
                > > >>> --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
                >
                > > >>> >
                >
                > > >>> > Haven't gotten my shoal draft J race ready yet so no formal racing to date but I have had several opportunities to buff with a local S2 racer who usually takes home the gold and I can beat the hell out of him upwind. I point higher and go faster and that's before getting my new main.
                >
                > > >>> >
                >
                > > >>> > Sent from my iPad
                >
                > > >>> >
                >
                > > >>> > David L. Hastings
                >
                > > >>> > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                >
                > > >>> > Crystal River, FL 34429
                >
                > > >>> > Home: 352-794-6440
                >
                > > >>> > Cell: 315-345-2078
                >
                > > >>> >
                >
                > > >>> > On Jul 2, 2012, at 3:10 PM, "Tommy" <evenflow457@> wrote:
                >
                > > >>> >
                >
                > > >>> > > Hey J28'ers,
                >
                > > >>> > >
                >
                > > >>> > > Looking for more input on the racing performance of the shoal draft model? I want to mainly cruz, but i still have the "racing bug" urge to race around the bouys.
                >
                > > >>> > >
                >
                > > >>> > > Any thoughts??
                >
                > > >>> > >
                >
                > > >>> > > Tx Tommy
                >
                > > >>> > >
                >
                > > >>> > >
                >
                > > >>> >
                >
                > > >>> > __________________________________________________________
                >
                > > >>> > NetZero now offers 4G mobile broadband. Sign up now.
                >
                > > >>> > http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT1
                >
                > > >>> >
                >
                > > >>>
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > > __________________________________________________________
                >
                > > > 5 Diet Pills that Work
                >
                > > > 2012's Top 5 Weight Loss Pills. Updated Consumer Ratings. Free Report.
                >
                > > > DietRatings.org
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > >
                >
                > > __________________________________________________________
                >
                > > 53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
                >
                > > The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
                >
                > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4ff300315ee2f2f7de2st51duc
                >
                > >
                >


              • Tommy
                I sure was hoping you would have said Shoal Draft! That is a pretty sweet finish though. These boats (at least the Fin Keels) sail well to their rating.
                Message 7 of 25 , Jul 30, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  I sure was hoping you would have said Shoal Draft! That is a pretty sweet finish though. These boats (at least the Fin Keels) sail well to their rating.

                  Tommy

                  --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Fin keel. Took another 1st last night. Probably blowing around 15, started out with a reefed main, took it out just before rounding the leward mark on the first pass around. The last 3 weeks we have been finishing up front with a 48' Hinckley Sw, their rating is 129, they are in the big boat fleet The RC changed the starting order the last 3 weeks, the small boats are starting with the big boats, we only have 4 small boats that show up on a regular basis out of the 8 that signed up, so the 2 cruising fleets start together but are scored separately. Roy
                  > To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                  > From: evenflow457@...
                  > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 21:40:51 +0000
                  > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Roy,
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Do you have the Shoal draft or the Fin keel??
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Tommy
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > We have our settings at 975 uppers and 775 lowers and with the new main and mast step change are just walking away from our competition, when the wind is over 10 knots. We have the mast base fully forward this year too. The first year we had the mast back, last year it was in the middle and this year all the way forward. If the wind is 6-8 knots, we don't do so well and under 6 we do OK. Our fleet, under 30', starts 5 minutes after the over 30' and by the end of the race we have usually passed all but 2 of the big boats, they range from 30' to 42', all but one are over 35'. We have setup the boat very close to the way the J30's in Marblehead are setup, except maybe about 100 lbs or so lighter on tension. We have a fin keel, gas grill on the stern rail, dodger, cockpit table (put away under sail), anchor stowed under the starboard settee, V-berth linens all on board. We have a fair amount of headstay sag, maybe 8-10 inches in light to medium winds before we start cranking on the backstay. We reef the main at about 14-15 knots of wind and leave the 155% up, bring the leads back, crank on the back stay and pinch (and point) crazy high in the heavier winds, using the pinching to bleed off air. We have a fairly light weight crew and race with about 5-6 people in the cruising fleet, 3 are women. We have the 155 set with 3 holes showing behind the lead. We usually out point everyone by huge amounts except for an Alerion 28 and a Baby Beneteau 235. On a good day (over 10 knots) we are even boat speed with the Alerion upwind and we are always faster downwind. We usually sail in a dying breeze on Tuesday nights, it might start out around 10-12 knots and slowly craps out. Roy
                  >
                  > > To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > > From: jfws88@
                  >
                  > > Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 16:52:10 +0000
                  >
                  > > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > Interesting, When Todd measured my boat for Roy's main he asked if I sail with the rig this loose. And, he really cranked the backstay for one of the measurements. I mean pully down to the hand rail tight. I'd never seem my mast bend that much. His words,"perfectly normal"
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > I use the back stay alot in a breeze to help flatten the boat and ease weather helm but I never pulled it that far. Conclusion for me, my rig is too loose by all accounts here.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > Dave, I'm not sure if I'll go all the my to your tuning but I will take heed of 42 years racing J boats.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > Tommy,
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > I have a shoal draft. With my rig tuned as described, the back stay is off all the way most of the time except cranked in on heavy puffs going upwind. To the best of my knowledge, fractional rig J's always should have the lowers tighter than the uppers. In all my years of J racing (that would be 42 years), I have never seen a J mast given way or broken. Having the lowers tighter than the uppers allows the upper third of the mast to fall off in heavy air allowing the main to dump some load and the boat sails flatter. Again, all this is for fractional rigs only.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > Sent from my iPad
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > David L. Hastings
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > Home: 352-794-6440
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 8:22 AM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > David,
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > Do you have a shoal draft or the 5' version?
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > That makes sense that you are faster upwind than downwind. With the rig that tight, you are not allowing it sag or bend forward when sailing downwind. However, don't ease you backstay too much downwind though. With the lowers on hard, the mast could snap in moderate conditions. I am curious though, with the lowers tighter than the uppers, do you find yourself needing to ease the main to stay powered up when sailing upwind?
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > JP,
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > You definitely want to move your mast step back. That gives your main better shape and allows more draft when needed in light stuff and in chop. As far as sag, on an older gennie, you can tighten your halyard a more than with a new one. This will move the draft forward as you always fighting the draft moving aft in older sails.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > I am getting all pumped up about these boats and I don't have one, YET!!
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > Tommy
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > From: David Hastings <david.hastings@>
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > To: "J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com" <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 7:38 AM
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > John, pointing has always been my strength. My losses have always been down wind. I am not a numbers guy. I've always been a seat of the pants sailor. I've set up my boat the same as I tuned my J29 as follows:
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > Head stay is at maximum length and mast has a slight rake. Mast step it not all the way forward. I'd guess it's about 1"ahead of center. Making sure everything is neutral and mast is centered, I pull on the back stay as hard and far as possible. Next, I tighten the uppers until the back stay begins to loosen a bit so the uppers are real tight. Now I release the back stay and the mast in really bent. Next I tighten the lowers until the prebend is pretty much gone and the mast looks as straight as possible. Now the lowers are tighter than the uppers and they are both pretty darn tight. I have never used a gauge. This has always worked well for me on the J29 for upwind performance in all conditions.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > As far as the sails go, I had a 155 on my J29 and seldom reduced sail but usually had a crew of 7. I have only a 135 on my J28 and It's in poor condition.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > I usually do best with the main strapped in hard and the boom slightly to windward of center. If higher pointing is needed in close situations, I pull the traveler over more to windward which, of course, slows the boat but usually allows me to get up and get by the problem.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > I'm still too new to the 28 to know whether or not this set up will work as well as it did on the 29 but so far it appears to be doing the trick so I'm sticking with it until I find the need of something different.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > Sent from my iPad
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > David L. Hastings
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > Home: 352-794-6440
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:38 AM, John Power <sailingmaster@> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >> I would be interested in some accurate tuning numbers as well, particularly a rake measurement. Currently I have my mast step max forward and about 900 on my uppers and 750 on the lowers.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >> I would like to see the mast bend a little lower and wonder if som blocks at the mast partner would help.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >> Also how much sag do you carry in the head stay?
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >> I have 4-5 inches I would say and am our Iu adjustment on the RF
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >> I gave raced the boat much, but I know the old genoa needs to be replaced before I can comment on pointing. I use the 135 as well the 150 overpowers the boat quickly in any breeze
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >> JP
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >> Sent from my iPhone
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >> On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:09 AM, John <jfws88@> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>>
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> Dave, Interesting, pointing has always been my weakness. Do you have any numbers on your rig set-up? And are you useing a 150% genny. I find I point best with the boom pointed at the leward backstay, not on center. I use a 135% genny and tune my rig to about 80% of the recommended J30 settings. When I don't do well in a race it's almost always due to looses upwind.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>>
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> John
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > Haven't gotten my shoal draft J race ready yet so no formal racing to date but I have had several opportunities to buff with a local S2 racer who usually takes home the gold and I can beat the hell out of him upwind. I point higher and go faster and that's before getting my new main.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > Sent from my iPad
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > David L. Hastings
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > Crystal River, FL 34429
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > Home: 352-794-6440
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > Cell: 315-345-2078
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > On Jul 2, 2012, at 3:10 PM, "Tommy" <evenflow457@> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > > Hey J28'ers,
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > > Looking for more input on the racing performance of the shoal draft model? I want to mainly cruz, but i still have the "racing bug" urge to race around the bouys.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > > Any thoughts??
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > > Tx Tommy
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > __________________________________________________________
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > NetZero now offers 4G mobile broadband. Sign up now.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> > http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT1
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>> >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >>>
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > __________________________________________________________
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > 5 Diet Pills that Work
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > 2012's Top 5 Weight Loss Pills. Updated Consumer Ratings. Free Report.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > > DietRatings.org
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > __________________________________________________________
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > 53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4ff300315ee2f2f7de2st51duc
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                • J Smith
                  The J/28 has a higher center of gravity than other comparable J s of that era. The reason being they need to get accommodation volume into the hull on a 24
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jul 30, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    The J/28 has a higher center of gravity than other comparable J's of that era. The reason being they need to get accommodation volume into the hull on a 24' LWL. The deep fin keel, also uncommon on the cruising hulls during the time of the UFO keels, helped mitigate some the performance hit. Obviously, the SD gives a similar righting moment, at the expense of windward performance and (imho)...stiffness. I would think very hard before I bought a SD J/28. If you sail in skinny water....it may not be possible. But then I'd be looking at a J/95 or J/108.
                    From: "Tommy" <evenflow457@...>
                    Sender: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 17:00:09 -0000
                    To: <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
                    ReplyTo: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

                     

                    I sure was hoping you would have said Shoal Draft! That is a pretty sweet finish though. These boats (at least the Fin Keels) sail well to their rating.

                    Tommy

                    --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Fin keel. Took another 1st last night. Probably blowing around 15, started out with a reefed main, took it out just before rounding the leward mark on the first pass around. The last 3 weeks we have been finishing up front with a 48' Hinckley Sw, their rating is 129, they are in the big boat fleet The RC changed the starting order the last 3 weeks, the small boats are starting with the big boats, we only have 4 small boats that show up on a regular basis out of the 8 that signed up, so the 2 cruising fleets start together but are scored separately. Roy
                    > To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                    > From: evenflow457@...
                    > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 21:40:51 +0000
                    > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Roy,
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Do you have the Shoal draft or the Fin keel??
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Tommy
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > We have our settings at 975 uppers and 775 lowers and with the new main and mast step change are just walking away from our competition, when the wind is over 10 knots. We have the mast base fully forward this year too. The first year we had the mast back, last year it was in the middle and this year all the way forward. If the wind is 6-8 knots, we don't do so well and under 6 we do OK. Our fleet, under 30', starts 5 minutes after the over 30' and by the end of the race we have usually passed all but 2 of the big boats, they range from 30' to 42', all but one are over 35'. We have setup the boat very close to the way the J30's in Marblehead are setup, except maybe about 100 lbs or so lighter on tension. We have a fin keel, gas grill on the stern rail, dodger, cockpit table (put away under sail), anchor stowed under the starboard settee, V-berth linens all on board. We have a fair amount of headstay sag, maybe 8-10 inches in light to medium winds before we start cranking on the backstay. We reef the main at about 14-15 knots of wind and leave the 155% up, bring the leads back, crank on the back stay and pinch (and point) crazy high in the heavier winds, using the pinching to bleed off air. We have a fairly light weight crew and race with about 5-6 people in the cruising fleet, 3 are women. We have the 155 set with 3 holes showing behind the lead. We usually out point everyone by huge amounts except for an Alerion 28 and a Baby Beneteau 235. On a good day (over 10 knots) we are even boat speed with the Alerion upwind and we are always faster downwind. We usually sail in a dying breeze on Tuesday nights, it might start out around 10-12 knots and slowly craps out. Roy
                    >
                    > > To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > > From: jfws88@
                    >
                    > > Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 16:52:10 +0000
                    >
                    > > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Interesting, When Todd measured my boat for Roy's main he asked if I sail with the rig this loose. And, he really cranked the backstay for one of the measurements. I mean pully down to the hand rail tight. I'd never seem my mast bend that much. His words,"perfectly normal"
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > I use the back stay alot in a breeze to help flatten the boat and ease weather helm but I never pulled it that far. Conclusion for me, my rig is too loose by all accounts here.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Dave, I'm not sure if I'll go all the my to your tuning but I will take heed of 42 years racing J boats.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Tommy,
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > I have a shoal draft. With my rig tuned as described, the back stay is off all the way most of the time except cranked in on heavy puffs going upwind. To the best of my knowledge, fractional rig J's always should have the lowers tighter than the uppers. In all my years of J racing (that would be 42 years), I have never seen a J mast given way or broken. Having the lowers tighter than the uppers allows the upper third of the mast to fall off in heavy air allowing the main to dump some load and the boat sails flatter. Again, all this is for fractional rigs only.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Sent from my iPad
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > David L. Hastings
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Home: 352-794-6440
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 8:22 AM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > David,
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > Do you have a shoal draft or the 5' version?
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > That makes sense that you are faster upwind than downwind. With the rig that tight, you are not allowing it sag or bend forward when sailing downwind. However, don't ease you backstay too much downwind though. With the lowers on hard, the mast could snap in moderate conditions. I am curious though, with the lowers tighter than the uppers, do you find yourself needing to ease the main to stay powered up when sailing upwind?
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > JP,
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > You definitely want to move your mast step back. That gives your main better shape and allows more draft when needed in light stuff and in chop. As far as sag, on an older gennie, you can tighten your halyard a more than with a new one. This will move the draft forward as you always fighting the draft moving aft in older sails.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > I am getting all pumped up about these boats and I don't have one, YET!!
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > Tommy
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > From: David Hastings <david.hastings@>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > To: "J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com" <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 7:38 AM
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > John, pointing has always been my strength. My losses have always been down wind. I am not a numbers guy. I've always been a seat of the pants sailor. I've set up my boat the same as I tuned my J29 as follows:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > Head stay is at maximum length and mast has a slight rake. Mast step it not all the way forward. I'd guess it's about 1"ahead of center. Making sure everything is neutral and mast is centered, I pull on the back stay as hard and far as possible. Next, I tighten the uppers until the back stay begins to loosen a bit so the uppers are real tight. Now I release the back stay and the mast in really bent. Next I tighten the lowers until the prebend is pretty much gone and the mast looks as straight as possible. Now the lowers are tighter than the uppers and they are both pretty darn tight. I have never used a gauge. This has always worked well for me on the J29 for upwind performance in all conditions.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > As far as the sails go, I had a 155 on my J29 and seldom reduced sail but usually had a crew of 7. I have only a 135 on my J28 and It's in poor condition.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > I usually do best with the main strapped in hard and the boom slightly to windward of center. If higher pointing is needed in close situations, I pull the traveler over more to windward which, of course, slows the boat but usually allows me to get up and get by the problem.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > I'm still too new to the 28 to know whether or not this set up will work as well as it did on the 29 but so far it appears to be doing the trick so I'm sticking with it until I find the need of something different.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > Sent from my iPad
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > David L. Hastings
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > Home: 352-794-6440
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:38 AM, John Power <sailingmaster@> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >> I would be interested in some accurate tuning numbers as well, particularly a rake measurement. Currently I have my mast step max forward and about 900 on my uppers and 750 on the lowers.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >> I would like to see the mast bend a little lower and wonder if som blocks at the mast partner would help.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >> Also how much sag do you carry in the head stay?
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >> I have 4-5 inches I would say and am our Iu adjustment on the RF
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >> I gave raced the boat much, but I know the old genoa needs to be replaced before I can comment on pointing. I use the 135 as well the 150 overpowers the boat quickly in any breeze
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >> JP
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >> Sent from my iPhone
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >> On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:09 AM, John <jfws88@> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> Dave, Interesting, pointing has always been my weakness. Do you have any numbers on your rig set-up? And are you useing a 150% genny. I find I point best with the boom pointed at the leward backstay, not on center. I use a 135% genny and tune my rig to about 80% of the recommended J30 settings. When I don't do well in a race it's almost always due to looses upwind.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> John
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > Haven't gotten my shoal draft J race ready yet so no formal racing to date but I have had several opportunities to buff with a local S2 racer who usually takes home the gold and I can beat the hell out of him upwind. I point higher and go faster and that's before getting my new main.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > Sent from my iPad
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > David L. Hastings
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > Crystal River, FL 34429
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > Home: 352-794-6440
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > Cell: 315-345-2078
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > On Jul 2, 2012, at 3:10 PM, "Tommy" <evenflow457@> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > > Hey J28'ers,
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > > Looking for more input on the racing performance of the shoal draft model? I want to mainly cruz, but i still have the "racing bug" urge to race around the bouys.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > > Any thoughts??
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > > Tx Tommy
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > __________________________________________________________
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > NetZero now offers 4G mobile broadband. Sign up now.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> > http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT1
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>> >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >>>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > __________________________________________________________
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > 5 Diet Pills that Work
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > 2012's Top 5 Weight Loss Pills. Updated Consumer Ratings. Free Report.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > > DietRatings.org
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > __________________________________________________________
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > 53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4ff300315ee2f2f7de2st51duc
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >

                  • Tommy Koe
                    What stiffness are you referring too?  Stiffness in the hull or stiffness translated into the rig?  How does the shoal draft version affect the stiffness?? 
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jul 30, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      What stiffness are you referring too?  Stiffness in the hull or stiffness translated into the rig?  How does the shoal draft version affect the stiffness??  Looking at the PHRF ratings, the hit does not seem that substantial.  I would expect some type of weather performance inhibited by the shoal model, but it is only a foot.  Also, by the specs that I have found, they still maintain the 3000lbs of weight in the keel.  (don't know how unless the keel is fatter)  Which would affect the lift of hydrodynamics in the keel. 
                       
                      I am very interested in your findings as I am looking at a SD J/28.  My local waters can be shallow in some areas which makes the SD version a viable option.  However, if I am looking at a serious degradation in performance and the boat can never sail to her rating, then it doesn't make sense to spend the kind of money for a boat that won't ever sail to her rating.  Might as well get a Catalina 30.  ugh!
                       
                      Thanks!!! 
                       
                      Tommy

                      From: J Smith <jason3317@...>
                      To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 1:19 PM
                      Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

                       
                      The J/28 has a higher center of gravity than other comparable J's of that era. The reason being they need to get accommodation volume into the hull on a 24' LWL. The deep fin keel, also uncommon on the cruising hulls during the time of the UFO keels, helped mitigate some the performance hit. Obviously, the SD gives a similar righting moment, at the expense of windward performance and (imho)...stiffness. I would think very hard before I bought a SD J/28. If you sail in skinny water....it may not be possible. But then I'd be looking at a J/95 or J/108.
                      From: "Tommy" <evenflow457@...>
                      Sender: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 17:00:09 -0000
                      To: <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
                      ReplyTo: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

                       
                      I sure was hoping you would have said Shoal Draft! That is a pretty sweet finish though. These boats (at least the Fin Keels) sail well to their rating.

                      Tommy

                      --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Fin keel. Took another 1st last night. Probably blowing around 15, started out with a reefed main, took it out just before rounding the leward mark on the first pass around. The last 3 weeks we have been finishing up front with a 48' Hinckley Sw, their rating is 129, they are in the big boat fleet The RC changed the starting order the last 3 weeks, the small boats are starting with the big boats, we only have 4 small boats that show up on a regular basis out of the 8 that signed up, so the 2 cruising fleets start together but are scored separately. Roy
                      > To: mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com
                      > From: evenflow457@...
                      > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 21:40:51 +0000
                      > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Roy,
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Do you have the Shoal draft or the Fin keel??
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Tommy
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@> wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > We have our settings at 975 uppers and 775 lowers and with the new main and mast step change are just walking away from our competition, when the wind is over 10 knots. We have the mast base fully forward this year too. The first year we had the mast back, last year it was in the middle and this year all the way forward. If the wind is 6-8 knots, we don't do so well and under 6 we do OK. Our fleet, under 30', starts 5 minutes after the over 30' and by the end of the race we have usually passed all but 2 of the big boats, they range from 30' to 42', all but one are over 35'. We have setup the boat very close to the way the J30's in Marblehead are setup, except maybe about 100 lbs or so lighter on tension. We have a fin keel, gas grill on the stern rail, dodger, cockpit table (put away under sail), anchor stowed under the starboard settee, V-berth linens all on board. We have a fair amount of headstay sag, maybe 8-10 inches in light to medium winds before we start cranking on the backstay. We reef the main at about 14-15 knots of wind and leave the 155% up, bring the leads back, crank on the back stay and pinch (and point) crazy high in the heavier winds, using the pinching to bleed off air. We have a fairly light weight crew and race with about 5-6 people in the cruising fleet, 3 are women. We have the 155 set with 3 holes showing behind the lead. We usually out point everyone by huge amounts except for an Alerion 28 and a Baby Beneteau 235. On a good day (over 10 knots) we are even boat speed with the Alerion upwind and we are always faster downwind. We usually sail in a dying breeze on Tuesday nights, it might start out around 10-12 knots and slowly craps out. Roy
                      >
                      > > To: mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > > From: jfws88@
                      >
                      > > Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 16:52:10 +0000
                      >
                      > > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Interesting, When Todd measured my boat for Roy's main he asked if I sail with the rig this loose. And, he really cranked the backstay for one of the measurements. I mean pully down to the hand rail tight. I'd never seem my mast bend that much. His words,"perfectly normal"
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > I use the back stay alot in a breeze to help flatten the boat and ease weather helm but I never pulled it that far. Conclusion for me, my rig is too loose by all accounts here.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Dave, I'm not sure if I'll go all the my to your tuning but I will take heed of 42 years racing J boats.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Tommy,
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > I have a shoal draft. With my rig tuned as described, the back stay is off all the way most of the time except cranked in on heavy puffs going upwind. To the best of my knowledge, fractional rig J's always should have the lowers tighter than the uppers. In all my years of J racing (that would be 42 years), I have never seen a J mast given way or broken. Having the lowers tighter than the uppers allows the upper third of the mast to fall off in heavy air allowing the main to dump some load and the boat sails flatter. Again, all this is for fractional rigs only.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Sent from my iPad
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > David L. Hastings
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Home: 352-794-6440
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 8:22 AM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@> wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > David,
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > Do you have a shoal draft or the 5' version?
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > That makes sense that you are faster upwind than downwind. With the rig that tight, you are not allowing it sag or bend forward when sailing downwind. However, don't ease you backstay too much downwind though. With the lowers on hard, the mast could snap in moderate conditions. I am curious though, with the lowers tighter than the uppers, do you find yourself needing to ease the main to stay powered up when sailing upwind?
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > JP,
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > You definitely want to move your mast step back. That gives your main better shape and allows more draft when needed in light stuff and in chop. As far as sag, on an older gennie, you can tighten your halyard a more than with a new one. This will move the draft forward as you always fighting the draft moving aft in older sails.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > I am getting all pumped up about these boats and I don't have one, YET!!
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > Tommy
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > From: David Hastings <david.hastings@>
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > To: "mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com>
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 7:38 AM
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > John, pointing has always been my strength. My losses have always been down wind. I am not a numbers guy. I've always been a seat of the pants sailor. I've set up my boat the same as I tuned my J29 as follows:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > Head stay is at maximum length and mast has a slight rake. Mast step it not all the way forward. I'd guess it's about 1"ahead of center. Making sure everything is neutral and mast is centered, I pull on the back stay as hard and far as possible. Next, I tighten the uppers until the back stay begins to loosen a bit so the uppers are real tight. Now I release the back stay and the mast in really bent. Next I tighten the lowers until the prebend is pretty much gone and the mast looks as straight as possible. Now the lowers are tighter than the uppers and they are both pretty darn tight. I have never used a gauge. This has always worked well for me on the J29 for upwind performance in all conditions.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > As far as the sails go, I had a 155 on my J29 and seldom reduced sail but usually had a crew of 7. I have only a 135 on my J28 and It's in poor condition.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > I usually do best with the main strapped in hard and the boom slightly to windward of center. If higher pointing is needed in close situations, I pull the traveler over more to windward which, of course, slows the boat but usually allows me to get up and get by the problem.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > I'm still too new to the 28 to know whether or not this set up will work as well as it did on the 29 but so far it appears to be doing the trick so I'm sticking with it until I find the need of something different.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > Sent from my iPad
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > David L. Hastings
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > Home: 352-794-6440
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:38 AM, John Power <sailingmaster@> wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >> I would be interested in some accurate tuning numbers as well, particularly a rake measurement. Currently I have my mast step max forward and about 900 on my uppers and 750 on the lowers.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >> I would like to see the mast bend a little lower and wonder if som blocks at the mast partner would help.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >> Also how much sag do you carry in the head stay?
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >> I have 4-5 inches I would say and am our Iu adjustment on the RF
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >> I gave raced the boat much, but I know the old genoa needs to be replaced before I can comment on pointing. I use the 135 as well the 150 overpowers the boat quickly in any breeze
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >> JP
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >> Sent from my iPhone
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >> On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:09 AM, John <jfws88@> wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>>
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> Dave, Interesting, pointing has always been my weakness. Do you have any numbers on your rig set-up? And are you useing a 150% genny. I find I point best with the boom pointed at the leward backstay, not on center. I use a 135% genny and tune my rig to about 80% of the recommended J30 settings. When I don't do well in a race it's almost always due to looses upwind.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>>
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> John
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > Haven't gotten my shoal draft J race ready yet so no formal racing to date but I have had several opportunities to buff with a local S2 racer who usually takes home the gold and I can beat the hell out of him upwind. I point higher and go faster and that's before getting my new main.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > Sent from my iPad
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > David L. Hastings
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > Crystal River, FL 34429
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > Home: 352-794-6440
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > Cell: 315-345-2078
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > On Jul 2, 2012, at 3:10 PM, "Tommy" <evenflow457@> wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > > Hey J28'ers,
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > > Looking for more input on the racing performance of the shoal draft model? I want to mainly cruz, but i still have the "racing bug" urge to race around the bouys.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > > Any thoughts??
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > > Tx Tommy
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > __________________________________________________________
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > NetZero now offers 4G mobile broadband. Sign up now.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> > http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT1
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>> >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >>>
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > __________________________________________________________
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > 5 Diet Pills that Work
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > 2012's Top 5 Weight Loss Pills. Updated Consumer Ratings. Free Report.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > > DietRatings.org
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > __________________________________________________________
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > 53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4ff300315ee2f2f7de2st51duc
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >



                    • Tommy Koe
                      BTW Jason, do you won a J/28?  or have you sailed on them at all?????? ________________________________ From: J Smith To:
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jul 30, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        BTW Jason, do you won a J/28?  or have you sailed on them at all??????

                        From: J Smith <jason3317@...>
                        To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 1:19 PM
                        Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

                         
                        The J/28 has a higher center of gravity than other comparable J's of that era. The reason being they need to get accommodation volume into the hull on a 24' LWL. The deep fin keel, also uncommon on the cruising hulls during the time of the UFO keels, helped mitigate some the performance hit. Obviously, the SD gives a similar righting moment, at the expense of windward performance and (imho)...stiffness. I would think very hard before I bought a SD J/28. If you sail in skinny water....it may not be possible. But then I'd be looking at a J/95 or J/108.
                        From: "Tommy" <evenflow457@...>
                        Sender: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 17:00:09 -0000
                        To: <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
                        ReplyTo: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

                         
                        I sure was hoping you would have said Shoal Draft! That is a pretty sweet finish though. These boats (at least the Fin Keels) sail well to their rating.

                        Tommy

                        --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Fin keel. Took another 1st last night. Probably blowing around 15, started out with a reefed main, took it out just before rounding the leward mark on the first pass around. The last 3 weeks we have been finishing up front with a 48' Hinckley Sw, their rating is 129, they are in the big boat fleet The RC changed the starting order the last 3 weeks, the small boats are starting with the big boats, we only have 4 small boats that show up on a regular basis out of the 8 that signed up, so the 2 cruising fleets start together but are scored separately. Roy
                        > To: mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com
                        > From: evenflow457@...
                        > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 21:40:51 +0000
                        > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Roy,
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Do you have the Shoal draft or the Fin keel??
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Tommy
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@> wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > We have our settings at 975 uppers and 775 lowers and with the new main and mast step change are just walking away from our competition, when the wind is over 10 knots. We have the mast base fully forward this year too. The first year we had the mast back, last year it was in the middle and this year all the way forward. If the wind is 6-8 knots, we don't do so well and under 6 we do OK. Our fleet, under 30', starts 5 minutes after the over 30' and by the end of the race we have usually passed all but 2 of the big boats, they range from 30' to 42', all but one are over 35'. We have setup the boat very close to the way the J30's in Marblehead are setup, except maybe about 100 lbs or so lighter on tension. We have a fin keel, gas grill on the stern rail, dodger, cockpit table (put away under sail), anchor stowed under the starboard settee, V-berth linens all on board. We have a fair amount of headstay sag, maybe 8-10 inches in light to medium winds before we start cranking on the backstay. We reef the main at about 14-15 knots of wind and leave the 155% up, bring the leads back, crank on the back stay and pinch (and point) crazy high in the heavier winds, using the pinching to bleed off air. We have a fairly light weight crew and race with about 5-6 people in the cruising fleet, 3 are women. We have the 155 set with 3 holes showing behind the lead. We usually out point everyone by huge amounts except for an Alerion 28 and a Baby Beneteau 235. On a good day (over 10 knots) we are even boat speed with the Alerion upwind and we are always faster downwind. We usually sail in a dying breeze on Tuesday nights, it might start out around 10-12 knots and slowly craps out. Roy
                        >
                        > > To: mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > > From: jfws88@
                        >
                        > > Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 16:52:10 +0000
                        >
                        > > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Interesting, When Todd measured my boat for Roy's main he asked if I sail with the rig this loose. And, he really cranked the backstay for one of the measurements. I mean pully down to the hand rail tight. I'd never seem my mast bend that much. His words,"perfectly normal"
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > I use the back stay alot in a breeze to help flatten the boat and ease weather helm but I never pulled it that far. Conclusion for me, my rig is too loose by all accounts here.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Dave, I'm not sure if I'll go all the my to your tuning but I will take heed of 42 years racing J boats.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > Tommy,
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > I have a shoal draft. With my rig tuned as described, the back stay is off all the way most of the time except cranked in on heavy puffs going upwind. To the best of my knowledge, fractional rig J's always should have the lowers tighter than the uppers. In all my years of J racing (that would be 42 years), I have never seen a J mast given way or broken. Having the lowers tighter than the uppers allows the upper third of the mast to fall off in heavy air allowing the main to dump some load and the boat sails flatter. Again, all this is for fractional rigs only.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > Sent from my iPad
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > David L. Hastings
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > Home: 352-794-6440
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 8:22 AM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@> wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > David,
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > Do you have a shoal draft or the 5' version?
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > That makes sense that you are faster upwind than downwind. With the rig that tight, you are not allowing it sag or bend forward when sailing downwind. However, don't ease you backstay too much downwind though. With the lowers on hard, the mast could snap in moderate conditions. I am curious though, with the lowers tighter than the uppers, do you find yourself needing to ease the main to stay powered up when sailing upwind?
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > JP,
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > You definitely want to move your mast step back. That gives your main better shape and allows more draft when needed in light stuff and in chop. As far as sag, on an older gennie, you can tighten your halyard a more than with a new one. This will move the draft forward as you always fighting the draft moving aft in older sails.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > I am getting all pumped up about these boats and I don't have one, YET!!
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > Tommy
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > From: David Hastings <david.hastings@>
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > To: "mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com>
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 7:38 AM
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > John, pointing has always been my strength. My losses have always been down wind. I am not a numbers guy. I've always been a seat of the pants sailor. I've set up my boat the same as I tuned my J29 as follows:
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > Head stay is at maximum length and mast has a slight rake. Mast step it not all the way forward. I'd guess it's about 1"ahead of center. Making sure everything is neutral and mast is centered, I pull on the back stay as hard and far as possible. Next, I tighten the uppers until the back stay begins to loosen a bit so the uppers are real tight. Now I release the back stay and the mast in really bent. Next I tighten the lowers until the prebend is pretty much gone and the mast looks as straight as possible. Now the lowers are tighter than the uppers and they are both pretty darn tight. I have never used a gauge. This has always worked well for me on the J29 for upwind performance in all conditions.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > As far as the sails go, I had a 155 on my J29 and seldom reduced sail but usually had a crew of 7. I have only a 135 on my J28 and It's in poor condition.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > I usually do best with the main strapped in hard and the boom slightly to windward of center. If higher pointing is needed in close situations, I pull the traveler over more to windward which, of course, slows the boat but usually allows me to get up and get by the problem.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > I'm still too new to the 28 to know whether or not this set up will work as well as it did on the 29 but so far it appears to be doing the trick so I'm sticking with it until I find the need of something different.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > Sent from my iPad
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > David L. Hastings
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > Home: 352-794-6440
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:38 AM, John Power <sailingmaster@> wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >> I would be interested in some accurate tuning numbers as well, particularly a rake measurement. Currently I have my mast step max forward and about 900 on my uppers and 750 on the lowers.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >> I would like to see the mast bend a little lower and wonder if som blocks at the mast partner would help.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >> Also how much sag do you carry in the head stay?
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >> I have 4-5 inches I would say and am our Iu adjustment on the RF
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >> I gave raced the boat much, but I know the old genoa needs to be replaced before I can comment on pointing. I use the 135 as well the 150 overpowers the boat quickly in any breeze
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >> JP
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >> Sent from my iPhone
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >> On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:09 AM, John <jfws88@> wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>>
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> Dave, Interesting, pointing has always been my weakness. Do you have any numbers on your rig set-up? And are you useing a 150% genny. I find I point best with the boom pointed at the leward backstay, not on center. I use a 135% genny and tune my rig to about 80% of the recommended J30 settings. When I don't do well in a race it's almost always due to looses upwind.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>>
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> John
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> > Haven't gotten my shoal draft J race ready yet so no formal racing to date but I have had several opportunities to buff with a local S2 racer who usually takes home the gold and I can beat the hell out of him upwind. I point higher and go faster and that's before getting my new main.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> > Sent from my iPad
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> > David L. Hastings
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> > Crystal River, FL 34429
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> > Home: 352-794-6440
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> > Cell: 315-345-2078
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> > On Jul 2, 2012, at 3:10 PM, "Tommy" <evenflow457@> wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> > > Hey J28'ers,
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> > > Looking for more input on the racing performance of the shoal draft model? I want to mainly cruz, but i still have the "racing bug" urge to race around the bouys.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> > > Any thoughts??
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> > > Tx Tommy
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> > __________________________________________________________
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> > NetZero now offers 4G mobile broadband. Sign up now.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> > http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT1
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>> >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >>>
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > __________________________________________________________
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > 5 Diet Pills that Work
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > 2012's Top 5 Weight Loss Pills. Updated Consumer Ratings. Free Report.
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > > DietRatings.org
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > __________________________________________________________
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > 53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4ff300315ee2f2f7de2st51duc
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > > >
                        >
                        > >
                        >



                      • Jason Smith
                        Stiffness is the ability to stand up to wind force acting on the rig. Good upwind VMGs are only possible with a low, vertical center of gravity (VCG). The
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jul 30, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment

                          Stiffness is the ability to stand up to wind force acting on the rig.   Good upwind VMGs are only possible with a low, vertical center of gravity (VCG). The lower the weight of the boat relative to its waterplane, the greater the stability, the more sail that can be carried and the smoother the motion.  There is a reason they didn't build many SDs....it is a compromise.


                          The shoal draft chord is much larger when compared to the 5' keel.  The shoal draft is 700# heavier as well.  You are correct that hydrodynamic parameters are different.


                          You really haven't told us much about how you will use the boat and where you are located.  How shallow are the waters where you will sail the boat?  What's your budget, etc, etc?


                          I'm not trying to talk you out of the SD, just passing along information I learned from Rod at the USSS a few years back.  I suspect a SD J/28 will still be faster than most anything in its peer group.  Just not a DD J/28.  


                          Btw, to answer your follow up email.  Yes, I have sailed on J/28 (both deep and shoal).  Yes, I am an owner.


                          -Jason


                          On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@...> wrote:
                           

                          What stiffness are you referring too?  Stiffness in the hull or stiffness translated into the rig?  How does the shoal draft version affect the stiffness??  Looking at the PHRF ratings, the hit does not seem that substantial.  I would expect some type of weather performance inhibited by the shoal model, but it is only a foot.  Also, by the specs that I have found, they still maintain the 3000lbs of weight in the keel.  (don't know how unless the keel is fatter)  Which would affect the lift of hydrodynamics in the keel. 
                           
                          I am very interested in your findings as I am looking at a SD J/28.  My local waters can be shallow in some areas which makes the SD version a viable option.  However, if I am looking at a serious degradation in performance and the boat can never sail to her rating, then it doesn't make sense to spend the kind of money for a boat that won't ever sail to her rating.  Might as well get a Catalina 30.  ugh!
                           
                          Thanks!!! 
                           
                          Tommy

                          From: J Smith <jason3317@...>
                          To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 1:19 PM

                          Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

                           
                          The J/28 has a higher center of gravity than other comparable J's of that era. The reason being they need to get accommodation volume into the hull on a 24' LWL. The deep fin keel, also uncommon on the cruising hulls during the time of the UFO keels, helped mitigate some the performance hit. Obviously, the SD gives a similar righting moment, at the expense of windward performance and (imho)...stiffness. I would think very hard before I bought a SD J/28. If you sail in skinny water....it may not be possible. But then I'd be looking at a J/95 or J/108.
                          From: "Tommy" <evenflow457@...>
                          Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 17:00:09 -0000
                          Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

                           
                          I sure was hoping you would have said Shoal Draft! That is a pretty sweet finish though. These boats (at least the Fin Keels) sail well to their rating.

                          Tommy

                          --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Fin keel. Took another 1st last night. Probably blowing around 15, started out with a reefed main, took it out just before rounding the leward mark on the first pass around. The last 3 weeks we have been finishing up front with a 48' Hinckley Sw, their rating is 129, they are in the big boat fleet The RC changed the starting order the last 3 weeks, the small boats are starting with the big boats, we only have 4 small boats that show up on a regular basis out of the 8 that signed up, so the 2 cruising fleets start together but are scored separately. Roy
                          > To: mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com

                          > From: evenflow457@...
                          > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 21:40:51 +0000
                          > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Roy,
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Do you have the Shoal draft or the Fin keel??
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Tommy
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@> wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > We have our settings at 975 uppers and 775 lowers and with the new main and mast step change are just walking away from our competition, when the wind is over 10 knots. We have the mast base fully forward this year too. The first year we had the mast back, last year it was in the middle and this year all the way forward. If the wind is 6-8 knots, we don't do so well and under 6 we do OK. Our fleet, under 30', starts 5 minutes after the over 30' and by the end of the race we have usually passed all but 2 of the big boats, they range from 30' to 42', all but one are over 35'. We have setup the boat very close to the way the J30's in Marblehead are setup, except maybe about 100 lbs or so lighter on tension. We have a fin keel, gas grill on the stern rail, dodger, cockpit table (put away under sail), anchor stowed under the starboard settee, V-berth linens all on board. We have a fair amount of headstay sag, maybe 8-10 inches in light to medium winds before we start cranking on the backstay. We reef the main at about 14-15 knots of wind and leave the 155% up, bring the leads back, crank on the back stay and pinch (and point) crazy high in the heavier winds, using the pinching to bleed off air. We have a fairly light weight crew and race with about 5-6 people in the cruising fleet, 3 are women. We have the 155 set with 3 holes showing behind the lead. We usually out point everyone by huge amounts except for an Alerion 28 and a Baby Beneteau 235. On a good day (over 10 knots) we are even boat speed with the Alerion upwind and we are always faster downwind. We usually sail in a dying breeze on Tuesday nights, it might start out around 10-12 knots and slowly craps out. Roy
                          >
                          > > To: mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com

                          >
                          > > From: jfws88@
                          >
                          > > Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 16:52:10 +0000
                          >
                          > > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > Interesting, When Todd measured my boat for Roy's main he asked if I sail with the rig this loose. And, he really cranked the backstay for one of the measurements. I mean pully down to the hand rail tight. I'd never seem my mast bend that much. His words,"perfectly normal"
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > I use the back stay alot in a breeze to help flatten the boat and ease weather helm but I never pulled it that far. Conclusion for me, my rig is too loose by all accounts here.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > Dave, I'm not sure if I'll go all the my to your tuning but I will take heed of 42 years racing J boats.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > Tommy,
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > I have a shoal draft. With my rig tuned as described, the back stay is off all the way most of the time except cranked in on heavy puffs going upwind. To the best of my knowledge, fractional rig J's always should have the lowers tighter than the uppers. In all my years of J racing (that would be 42 years), I have never seen a J mast given way or broken. Having the lowers tighter than the uppers allows the upper third of the mast to fall off in heavy air allowing the main to dump some load and the boat sails flatter. Again, all this is for fractional rigs only.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > Sent from my iPad
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > David L. Hastings
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > Home: 352-794-6440
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 8:22 AM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@> wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > > David,
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > > Do you have a shoal draft or the 5' version?
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > > That makes sense that you are faster upwind than downwind. With the rig that tight, you are not allowing it sag or bend forward when sailing downwind. However, don't ease you backstay too much downwind though. With the lowers on hard, the mast could snap in moderate conditions. I am curious though, with the lowers tighter than the uppers, do you find yourself needing to ease the main to stay powered up when sailing upwind?
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > > JP,
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > > You definitely want to move your mast step back. That gives your main better shape and allows more draft when needed in light stuff and in chop. As far as sag, on an older gennie, you can tighten your halyard a more than with a new one. This will move the draft forward as you always fighting the draft moving aft in older sails.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > > I am getting all pumped up about these boats and I don't have one, YET!!
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > > Tommy
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > > From: David Hastings <david.hastings@>
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > > To: "mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com>
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 7:38 AM
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > > John, pointing has always been my strength. My losses have always been down wind. I am not a numbers guy. I've always been a seat of the pants sailor. I've set up my boat the same as I tuned my J29 as follows:
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > > Head stay is at maximum length and mast has a slight rake. Mast step it not all the way forward. I'd guess it's about 1"ahead of center. Making sure everything is neutral and mast is centered, I pull on the back stay as hard and far as possible. Next, I tighten the uppers until the back stay begins to loosen a bit so the uppers are real tight. Now I release the back stay and the mast in really bent. Next I tighten the lowers until the prebend is pretty much gone and the mast looks as straight as possible. Now the lowers are tighter than the uppers and they are both pretty darn tight. I have never used a gauge. This has always worked well for me on the J29 for upwind performance in all conditions.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > > As far as the sails go, I had a 155 on my J29 and seldom reduced sail but usually had a crew of 7. I have only a 135 on my J28 and It's in poor condition.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > > I usually do best with the main strapped in hard and the boom slightly to windward of center. If higher pointing is needed in close situations, I pull the traveler over more to windward which, of course, slows the boat but usually allows me to get up and get by the problem.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > > I'm still too new to the 28 to know whether or not this set up will work as well as it did on the 29 but so far it appears to be doing the trick so I'm sticking with it until I find the need of something different.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > > Sent from my iPad
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > > David L. Hastings
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > > Home: 352-794-6440
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:38 AM, John Power <sailingmaster@> wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >> I would be interested in some accurate tuning numbers as well, particularly a rake measurement. Currently I have my mast step max forward and about 900 on my uppers and 750 on the lowers.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >> I would like to see the mast bend a little lower and wonder if som blocks at the mast partner would help.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >> Also how much sag do you carry in the head stay?
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >> I have 4-5 inches I would say and am our Iu adjustment on the RF
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >> I gave raced the boat much, but I know the old genoa needs to be replaced before I can comment on pointing. I use the 135 as well the 150 overpowers the boat quickly in any breeze
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >> JP
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >> Sent from my iPhone
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >> On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:09 AM, John <jfws88@> wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>>
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> Dave, Interesting, pointing has always been my weakness. Do you have any numbers on your rig set-up? And are you useing a 150% genny. I find I point best with the boom pointed at the leward backstay, not on center. I use a 135% genny and tune my rig to about 80% of the recommended J30 settings. When I don't do well in a race it's almost always due to looses upwind.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>>
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> John
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> > Haven't gotten my shoal draft J race ready yet so no formal racing to date but I have had several opportunities to buff with a local S2 racer who usually takes home the gold and I can beat the hell out of him upwind. I point higher and go faster and that's before getting my new main.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> > Sent from my iPad
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> > David L. Hastings
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> > Crystal River, FL 34429
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> > Home: 352-794-6440
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> > Cell: 315-345-2078
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> > On Jul 2, 2012, at 3:10 PM, "Tommy" <evenflow457@> wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> > > Hey J28'ers,
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> > > Looking for more input on the racing performance of the shoal draft model? I want to mainly cruz, but i still have the "racing bug" urge to race around the bouys.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> > > Any thoughts??
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> > > Tx Tommy
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> > __________________________________________________________
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> > NetZero now offers 4G mobile broadband. Sign up now.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> > http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT1
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>> >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >>>
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > > __________________________________________________________
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > > 5 Diet Pills that Work
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > > 2012's Top 5 Weight Loss Pills. Updated Consumer Ratings. Free Report.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > > DietRatings.org
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > __________________________________________________________
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > 53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4ff300315ee2f2f7de2st51duc
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >




                        • Tommy Koe
                          Hey Jason,   Thanx for the feedback.  Very interesting what RJ had to say.  I understand the dynamics of VMG and VCG.  When you had made the comment about
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jul 30, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hey Jason,
                             
                            Thanx for the feedback.  Very interesting what RJ had to say.  I understand the dynamics of VMG and VCG.  When you had made the comment about the stiffness of the boat, I immediately started thinking about the deck stiffness.  I have sailed way to many beat up Melges 24's and couldn't un-wrap my head from that.  Thx for the clarification.
                             
                            I did not know that the SD was 700# heavier!  Maybe to help offset the compromise of the shallower keel?
                             
                            I live on the East coast of Florida and will be primarily sailing in the intercoastal.  Average depth is ~6-8, but there are quite a few shoals in the area as well that get as shallow as 3 ft.  My plan for the boat is really 2 fold.  I have raced most my life and am starting to slow down just a bit.  My wife loves to sail, but not race.  More cruising or casual sailing.  So my goal was/is to find a boat that can meet my racing needs and her cruising/casual needs.  I had given up hope until I had stumbled onto the J/28.  I have raced on J/24's and J/30's and I love the performance of the J Boat.  Just didn't think I could get a J boat to meet my wifes needs.  Also, at 28', the boat is nice for single or double-handed sailing.
                             
                            So the boat would doing some local and out of town racing, distance racing and cruising.  To include overnights and possibly cruzing for a week or two each year.   A broad spectrum of requirements, I know.  But if you can have both, then, why not?
                             
                            Boats with 5' plus keels regularly "bump" while racing in the intercoastal and the couple of boats we do have at the Yacht club that are 6' +, pretty much have to stay close to or in the channel.  Of course, wing keel boats are out of the question! 
                             
                            One reason I am looking at the SD is that there is one in Florida and that is a big convience factor.  If there were the DD versions down here, I would be much more interested in that type of boat.  It would be the choice version to have. 
                             
                            As far as budget, not looking to spend more than 40-45k.
                             
                            How long have you had your J/28?  Do you race mostly or cruise? Or a lot of both.  Most of the guys who I have talked to seems to do a lot of both, which is really exciting.
                             
                            Thanks for the great info Jason!!!  I appreciate your time.  Oh, BTW, I have read some stuff about rudder issues.  Have you experienced any of that?
                             
                            TX
                             
                            Tommy
                             
                             

                            From: Jason Smith <jason3317@...>
                            To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 2:12 PM
                            Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

                             
                            Stiffness is the ability to stand up to wind force acting on the rig.   Good upwind VMGs are only possible with a low, vertical center of gravity (VCG). The lower the weight of the boat relative to its waterplane, the greater the stability, the more sail that can be carried and the smoother the motion.  There is a reason they didn't build many SDs....it is a compromise.

                            The shoal draft chord is much larger when compared to the 5' keel.  The shoal draft is 700# heavier as well.  You are correct that hydrodynamic parameters are different.

                            You really haven't told us much about how you will use the boat and where you are located.  How shallow are the waters where you will sail the boat?  What's your budget, etc, etc?

                            I'm not trying to talk you out of the SD, just passing along information I learned from Rod at the USSS a few years back.  I suspect a SD J/28 will still be faster than most anything in its peer group.  Just not a DD J/28.  

                            Btw, to answer your follow up email.  Yes, I have sailed on J/28 (both deep and shoal).  Yes, I am an owner.

                            -Jason

                            On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@...> wrote:
                             
                            What stiffness are you referring too?  Stiffness in the hull or stiffness translated into the rig?  How does the shoal draft version affect the stiffness??  Looking at the PHRF ratings, the hit does not seem that substantial.  I would expect some type of weather performance inhibited by the shoal model, but it is only a foot.  Also, by the specs that I have found, they still maintain the 3000lbs of weight in the keel.  (don't know how unless the keel is fatter)  Which would affect the lift of hydrodynamics in the keel. 
                             
                            I am very interested in your findings as I am looking at a SD J/28.  My local waters can be shallow in some areas which makes the SD version a viable option.  However, if I am looking at a serious degradation in performance and the boat can never sail to her rating, then it doesn't make sense to spend the kind of money for a boat that won't ever sail to her rating.  Might as well get a Catalina 30.  ugh!
                             
                            Thanks!!! 
                             
                            Tommy

                            From: J Smith <jason3317@...>
                            To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 1:19 PM

                            Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

                             
                            The J/28 has a higher center of gravity than other comparable J's of that era. The reason being they need to get accommodation volume into the hull on a 24' LWL. The deep fin keel, also uncommon on the cruising hulls during the time of the UFO keels, helped mitigate some the performance hit. Obviously, the SD gives a similar righting moment, at the expense of windward performance and (imho)...stiffness. I would think very hard before I bought a SD J/28. If you sail in skinny water....it may not be possible. But then I'd be looking at a J/95 or J/108.
                            From: "Tommy" <evenflow457@...>
                            Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 17:00:09 -0000
                            Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

                             
                            I sure was hoping you would have said Shoal Draft! That is a pretty sweet finish though. These boats (at least the Fin Keels) sail well to their rating.

                            Tommy

                            --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Fin keel. Took another 1st last night. Probably blowing around 15, started out with a reefed main, took it out just before rounding the leward mark on the first pass around. The last 3 weeks we have been finishing up front with a 48' Hinckley Sw, their rating is 129, they are in the big boat fleet The RC changed the starting order the last 3 weeks, the small boats are starting with the big boats, we only have 4 small boats that show up on a regular basis out of the 8 that signed up, so the 2 cruising fleets start together but are scored separately. Roy
                            > To: mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com

                            > From: evenflow457@...
                            > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 21:40:51 +0000
                            > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Roy,
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Do you have the Shoal draft or the Fin keel??
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Tommy
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@> wrote:
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > We have our settings at 975 uppers and 775 lowers and with the new main and mast step change are just walking away from our competition, when the wind is over 10 knots. We have the mast base fully forward this year too. The first year we had the mast back, last year it was in the middle and this year all the way forward. If the wind is 6-8 knots, we don't do so well and under 6 we do OK. Our fleet, under 30', starts 5 minutes after the over 30' and by the end of the race we have usually passed all but 2 of the big boats, they range from 30' to 42', all but one are over 35'. We have setup the boat very close to the way the J30's in Marblehead are setup, except maybe about 100 lbs or so lighter on tension. We have a fin keel, gas grill on the stern rail, dodger, cockpit table (put away under sail), anchor stowed under the starboard settee, V-berth linens all on board. We have a fair amount of headstay sag, maybe 8-10 inches in light to medium winds before we start cranking on the backstay. We reef the main at about 14-15 knots of wind and leave the 155% up, bring the leads back, crank on the back stay and pinch (and point) crazy high in the heavier winds, using the pinching to bleed off air. We have a fairly light weight crew and race with about 5-6 people in the cruising fleet, 3 are women. We have the 155 set with 3 holes showing behind the lead. We usually out point everyone by huge amounts except for an Alerion 28 and a Baby Beneteau 235. On a good day (over 10 knots) we are even boat speed with the Alerion upwind and we are always faster downwind. We usually sail in a dying breeze on Tuesday nights, it might start out around 10-12 knots and slowly craps out. Roy
                            >
                            > > To: mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com

                            >
                            > > From: jfws88@
                            >
                            > > Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 16:52:10 +0000
                            >
                            > > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > Interesting, When Todd measured my boat for Roy's main he asked if I sail with the rig this loose. And, he really cranked the backstay for one of the measurements. I mean pully down to the hand rail tight. I'd never seem my mast bend that much. His words,"perfectly normal"
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > I use the back stay alot in a breeze to help flatten the boat and ease weather helm but I never pulled it that far. Conclusion for me, my rig is too loose by all accounts here.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > Dave, I'm not sure if I'll go all the my to your tuning but I will take heed of 42 years racing J boats.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > Tommy,
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > I have a shoal draft. With my rig tuned as described, the back stay is off all the way most of the time except cranked in on heavy puffs going upwind. To the best of my knowledge, fractional rig J's always should have the lowers tighter than the uppers. In all my years of J racing (that would be 42 years), I have never seen a J mast given way or broken. Having the lowers tighter than the uppers allows the upper third of the mast to fall off in heavy air allowing the main to dump some load and the boat sails flatter. Again, all this is for fractional rigs only.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > Sent from my iPad
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > David L. Hastings
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > Home: 352-794-6440
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 8:22 AM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@> wrote:
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > > David,
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > > Do you have a shoal draft or the 5' version?
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > > That makes sense that you are faster upwind than downwind. With the rig that tight, you are not allowing it sag or bend forward when sailing downwind. However, don't ease you backstay too much downwind though. With the lowers on hard, the mast could snap in moderate conditions. I am curious though, with the lowers tighter than the uppers, do you find yourself needing to ease the main to stay powered up when sailing upwind?
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > > JP,
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > > You definitely want to move your mast step back. That gives your main better shape and allows more draft when needed in light stuff and in chop. As far as sag, on an older gennie, you can tighten your halyard a more than with a new one. This will move the draft forward as you always fighting the draft moving aft in older sails.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > > I am getting all pumped up about these boats and I don't have one, YET!!
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > > Tommy
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > > From: David Hastings <david.hastings@>
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > > To: "mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com>
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 7:38 AM
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > > John, pointing has always been my strength. My losses have always been down wind. I am not a numbers guy. I've always been a seat of the pants sailor. I've set up my boat the same as I tuned my J29 as follows:
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > > Head stay is at maximum length and mast has a slight rake. Mast step it not all the way forward. I'd guess it's about 1"ahead of center. Making sure everything is neutral and mast is centered, I pull on the back stay as hard and far as possible. Next, I tighten the uppers until the back stay begins to loosen a bit so the uppers are real tight. Now I release the back stay and the mast in really bent. Next I tighten the lowers until the prebend is pretty much gone and the mast looks as straight as possible. Now the lowers are tighter than the uppers and they are both pretty darn tight. I have never used a gauge. This has always worked well for me on the J29 for upwind performance in all conditions.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > > As far as the sails go, I had a 155 on my J29 and seldom reduced sail but usually had a crew of 7. I have only a 135 on my J28 and It's in poor condition.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > > I usually do best with the main strapped in hard and the boom slightly to windward of center. If higher pointing is needed in close situations, I pull the traveler over more to windward which, of course, slows the boat but usually allows me to get up and get by the problem.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > > I'm still too new to the 28 to know whether or not this set up will work as well as it did on the 29 but so far it appears to be doing the trick so I'm sticking with it until I find the need of something different.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > > Sent from my iPad
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > > David L. Hastings
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > > Home: 352-794-6440
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:38 AM, John Power <sailingmaster@> wrote:
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >> I would be interested in some accurate tuning numbers as well, particularly a rake measurement. Currently I have my mast step max forward and about 900 on my uppers and 750 on the lowers.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >> I would like to see the mast bend a little lower and wonder if som blocks at the mast partner would help.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >> Also how much sag do you carry in the head stay?
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >> I have 4-5 inches I would say and am our Iu adjustment on the RF
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >> I gave raced the boat much, but I know the old genoa needs to be replaced before I can comment on pointing. I use the 135 as well the 150 overpowers the boat quickly in any breeze
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >> JP
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >> Sent from my iPhone
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >> On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:09 AM, John <jfws88@> wrote:
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>>
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>> Dave, Interesting, pointing has always been my weakness. Do you have any numbers on your rig set-up? And are you useing a 150% genny. I find I point best with the boom pointed at the leward backstay, not on center. I use a 135% genny and tune my rig to about 80% of the recommended J30 settings. When I don't do well in a race it's almost always due to looses upwind.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>>
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>> John
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>> --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>> >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>> > Haven't gotten my shoal draft J race ready yet so no formal racing to date but I have had several opportunities to buff with a local S2 racer who usually takes home the gold and I can beat the hell out of him upwind. I point higher and go faster and that's before getting my new main.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>> >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>> > Sent from my iPad
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>> >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>> > David L. Hastings
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>> > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>> > Crystal River, FL 34429
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>> > Home: 352-794-6440
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>> > Cell: 315-345-2078
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>> >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>> > On Jul 2, 2012, at 3:10 PM, "Tommy" <evenflow457@> wrote:
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>> >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>> > > Hey J28'ers,
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>> > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>> > > Looking for more input on the racing performance of the shoal draft model? I want to mainly cruz, but i still have the "racing bug" urge to race around the bouys.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>> > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>> > > Any thoughts??
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>> > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>> > > Tx Tommy
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>> > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>> > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>> >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>> > __________________________________________________________
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>> > NetZero now offers 4G mobile broadband. Sign up now.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>> > http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT1
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>> >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >>>
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > > __________________________________________________________
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > > 5 Diet Pills that Work
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > > 2012's Top 5 Weight Loss Pills. Updated Consumer Ratings. Free Report.
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > > DietRatings.org
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > __________________________________________________________
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > 53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4ff300315ee2f2f7de2st51duc
                            >
                            > >
                            >
                            > > >
                            >
                            > >
                            >






                          • David Hastings
                            Okay you guys, as the new kid on the block And with relatively little time sailing my SD J28 #30, I can t yet give you a lot of proof on how well the SD J28
                            Message 13 of 25 , Jul 30, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Okay you guys, as the new kid on the block And with relatively little time sailing my SD J28 #30, I can't yet give you a lot of proof on how well the SD J28 does but let me tell you this. I recently moved from upstate NY (Lake Ontario area) to the west coast of Florida and I bought this boat because I long had planned on a SD J28 as my retirement boat. 

                              I grew up racing Flying Dutchmen and was very active in that class as long as it was an Olympic class. I competed in the America trials for the Olympics the year they were held in Kingston, Ontario. In 1969 I sold my FD and purchased a New J24 which I raced actively until 1976 when I traded it in on a new fractional rig J29 which I raced actively until 2010. In 2009 I bought the SD J28 (which had been on the hard for five years, was full of water and a real mess but structurally sound) and spent a year working on it in my front yard. Finally launched it in 2010 and sailed it only briefly that year. The following year I was still working on it most of the summer but got a few short weeks of sailing in. I have just about finished the restoration project and am, in fact, on my way up to NY to splash the boat in a couple of days. I will be living on the boat and sailing it actively in Lake Ontario from the end of this week until Labor Day weekend. Now, what I can tell you is that I, too, was concerned about performance with the SD keel. Those concerns, however, we're put to rest the first time I sailed the boat. I have found it to be excellent up wind as I can out point anything I've bucked with so far including some pretty competitive racers. The boat feels and acts the same as my prior J's. The only short fall I've discovered so far is that light air performance is not what I have been used to in my prior J's. It is sluggish and does not maneuver nearly as well in the real light stuff. I do think it will be a rating beater in most conditions. I'm certain she'll be a winner in moderate to heavy hair. For my money, I don't think there is any boat of similar size the offers such fine accommodations and sails so well - - - - like a J. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.  Now that I have a new main, the rig set up the way I want it and a full month of 24/7's to play around with it, I'll know a lot more next month and I'll be glad to report on what I find. I am really excited about this boat and can't imagine any serious sailor considering anything other than a J, shoal draft or fin!

                              Sent from my iPad

                              David L. Hastings
                              5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                              Crystal River, FL 34429
                              Home: 352-794-6440
                              Cell: 315-345-2078

                              On Jul 30, 2012, at 4:34 PM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@...> wrote:

                               

                              Hey Jason,
                               
                              Thanx for the feedback.  Very interesting what RJ had to say.  I understand the dynamics of VMG and VCG.  When you had made the comment about the stiffness of the boat, I immediately started thinking about the deck stiffness.  I have sailed way to many beat up Melges 24's and couldn't un-wrap my head from that.  Thx for the clarification.
                               
                              I did not know that the SD was 700# heavier!  Maybe to help offset the compromise of the shallower keel?
                               
                              I live on the East coast of Florida and will be primarily sailing in the intercoastal.  Average depth is ~6-8, but there are quite a few shoals in the area as well that get as shallow as 3 ft.  My plan for the boat is really 2 fold.  I have raced most my life and am starting to slow down just a bit.  My wife loves to sail, but not race.  More cruising or casual sailing.  So my goal was/is to find a boat that can meet my racing needs and her cruising/casual needs.  I had given up hope until I had stumbled onto the J/28.  I have raced on J/24's and J/30's and I love the performance of the J Boat.  Just didn't think I could get a J boat to meet my wifes needs.  Also, at 28', the boat is nice for single or double-handed sailing.
                               
                              So the boat would doing some local and out of town racing, distance racing and cruising.  To include overnights and possibly cruzing for a week or two each year.   A broad spectrum of requirements, I know.  But if you can have both, then, why not?
                               
                              Boats with 5' plus keels regularly "bump" while racing in the intercoastal and the couple of boats we do have at the Yacht club that are 6' +, pretty much have to stay close to or in the channel.  Of course, wing keel boats are out of the question! 
                               
                              One reason I am looking at the SD is that there is one in Florida and that is a big convience factor.  If there were the DD versions down here, I would be much more interested in that type of boat.  It would be the choice version to have. 
                               
                              As far as budget, not looking to spend more than 40-45k.
                               
                              How long have you had your J/28?  Do you race mostly or cruise? Or a lot of both.  Most of the guys who I have talked to seems to do a lot of both, which is really exciting.
                               
                              Thanks for the great info Jason!!!  I appreciate your time.  Oh, BTW, I have read some stuff about rudder issues.  Have you experienced any of that?
                               
                              TX
                               
                              Tommy
                               
                               

                              From: Jason Smith <jason3317@...>
                              To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 2:12 PM
                              Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

                               
                              Stiffness is the ability to stand up to wind force acting on the rig.   Good upwind VMGs are only possible with a low, vertical center of gravity (VCG). The lower the weight of the boat relative to its waterplane, the greater the stability, the more sail that can be carried and the smoother the motion.  There is a reason they didn't build many SDs....it is a compromise.

                              The shoal draft chord is much larger when compared to the 5' keel.  The shoal draft is 700# heavier as well.  You are correct that hydrodynamic parameters are different.

                              You really haven't told us much about how you will use the boat and where you are located.  How shallow are the waters where you will sail the boat?  What's your budget, etc, etc?

                              I'm not trying to talk you out of the SD, just passing along information I learned from Rod at the USSS a few years back.  I suspect a SD J/28 will still be faster than most anything in its peer group.  Just not a DD J/28.  

                              Btw, to answer your follow up email.  Yes, I have sailed on J/28 (both deep and shoal).  Yes, I am an owner.

                              -Jason

                              On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@...> wrote:
                               
                              What stiffness are you referring too?  Stiffness in the hull or stiffness translated into the rig?  How does the shoal draft version affect the stiffness??  Looking at the PHRF ratings, the hit does not seem that substantial.  I would expect some type of weather performance inhibited by the shoal model, but it is only a foot.  Also, by the specs that I have found, they still maintain the 3000lbs of weight in the keel.  (don't know how unless the keel is fatter)  Which would affect the lift of hydrodynamics in the keel. 
                               
                              I am very interested in your findings as I am looking at a SD J/28.  My local waters can be shallow in some areas which makes the SD version a viable option.  However, if I am looking at a serious degradation in performance and the boat can never sail to her rating, then it doesn't make sense to spend the kind of money for a boat that won't ever sail to her rating.  Might as well get a Catalina 30.  ugh!
                               
                              Thanks!!! 
                               
                              Tommy

                              From: J Smith <jason3317@...>
                              To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 1:19 PM

                              Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

                               
                              The J/28 has a higher center of gravity than other comparable J's of that era. The reason being they need to get accommodation volume into the hull on a 24' LWL. The deep fin keel, also uncommon on the cruising hulls during the time of the UFO keels, helped mitigate some the performance hit. Obviously, the SD gives a similar righting moment, at the expense of windward performance and (imho)...stiffness. I would think very hard before I bought a SD J/28. If you sail in skinny water....it may not be possible. But then I'd be looking at a J/95 or J/108.
                              From: "Tommy" <evenflow457@...>
                              Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 17:00:09 -0000
                              Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

                               
                              I sure was hoping you would have said Shoal Draft! That is a pretty sweet finish though. These boats (at least the Fin Keels) sail well to their rating.

                              Tommy

                              --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Fin keel. Took another 1st last night. Probably blowing around 15, started out with a reefed main, took it out just before rounding the leward mark on the first pass around. The last 3 weeks we have been finishing up front with a 48' Hinckley Sw, their rating is 129, they are in the big boat fleet The RC changed the starting order the last 3 weeks, the small boats are starting with the big boats, we only have 4 small boats that show up on a regular basis out of the 8 that signed up, so the 2 cruising fleets start together but are scored separately. Roy
                              > To: mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com

                              > From: evenflow457@...
                              > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 21:40:51 +0000
                              > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Roy,
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Do you have the Shoal draft or the Fin keel??
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Tommy
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@> wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > We have our settings at 975 uppers and 775 lowers and with the new main and mast step change are just walking away from our competition, when the wind is over 10 knots. We have the mast base fully forward this year too. The first year we had the mast back, last year it was in the middle and this year all the way forward. If the wind is 6-8 knots, we don't do so well and under 6 we do OK. Our fleet, under 30', starts 5 minutes after the over 30' and by the end of the race we have usually passed all but 2 of the big boats, they range from 30' to 42', all but one are over 35'. We have setup the boat very close to the way the J30's in Marblehead are setup, except maybe about 100 lbs or so lighter on tension. We have a fin keel, gas grill on the stern rail, dodger, cockpit table (put away under sail), anchor stowed under the starboard settee, V-berth linens all on board. We have a fair amount of headstay sag, maybe 8-10 inches in light to medium winds before we start cranking on the backstay. We reef the main at about 14-15 knots of wind and leave the 155% up, bring the leads back, crank on the back stay and pinch (and point) crazy high in the heavier winds, using the pinching to bleed off air. We have a fairly light weight crew and race with about 5-6 people in the cruising fleet, 3 are women. We have the 155 set with 3 holes showing behind the lead. We usually out point everyone by huge amounts except for an Alerion 28 and a Baby Beneteau 235. On a good day (over 10 knots) we are even boat speed with the Alerion upwind and we are always faster downwind. We usually sail in a dying breeze on Tuesday nights, it might start out around 10-12 knots and slowly craps out. Roy
                              >
                              > > To: mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com

                              >
                              > > From: jfws88@
                              >
                              > > Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 16:52:10 +0000
                              >
                              > > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > Interesting, When Todd measured my boat for Roy's main he asked if I sail with the rig this loose. And, he really cranked the backstay for one of the measurements. I mean pully down to the hand rail tight. I'd never seem my mast bend that much. His words,"perfectly normal"
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > I use the back stay alot in a breeze to help flatten the boat and ease weather helm but I never pulled it that far. Conclusion for me, my rig is too loose by all accounts here.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > Dave, I'm not sure if I'll go all the my to your tuning but I will take heed of 42 years racing J boats.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > Tommy,
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > I have a shoal draft. With my rig tuned as described, the back stay is off all the way most of the time except cranked in on heavy puffs going upwind. To the best of my knowledge, fractional rig J's always should have the lowers tighter than the uppers. In all my years of J racing (that would be 42 years), I have never seen a J mast given way or broken. Having the lowers tighter than the uppers allows the upper third of the mast to fall off in heavy air allowing the main to dump some load and the boat sails flatter. Again, all this is for fractional rigs only.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > Sent from my iPad
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > David L. Hastings
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > Home: 352-794-6440
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 8:22 AM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@> wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > David,
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > Do you have a shoal draft or the 5' version?
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > That makes sense that you are faster upwind than downwind. With the rig that tight, you are not allowing it sag or bend forward when sailing downwind. However, don't ease you backstay too much downwind though. With the lowers on hard, the mast could snap in moderate conditions. I am curious though, with the lowers tighter than the uppers, do you find yourself needing to ease the main to stay powered up when sailing upwind?
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > JP,
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > You definitely want to move your mast step back. That gives your main better shape and allows more draft when needed in light stuff and in chop. As far as sag, on an older gennie, you can tighten your halyard a more than with a new one. This will move the draft forward as you always fighting the draft moving aft in older sails.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > I am getting all pumped up about these boats and I don't have one, YET!!
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > Tommy
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > From: David Hastings <david.hastings@>
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > To: "mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com>
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 7:38 AM
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > John, pointing has always been my strength. My losses have always been down wind. I am not a numbers guy. I've always been a seat of the pants sailor. I've set up my boat the same as I tuned my J29 as follows:
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > Head stay is at maximum length and mast has a slight rake. Mast step it not all the way forward. I'd guess it's about 1"ahead of center. Making sure everything is neutral and mast is centered, I pull on the back stay as hard and far as possible. Next, I tighten the uppers until the back stay begins to loosen a bit so the uppers are real tight. Now I release the back stay and the mast in really bent. Next I tighten the lowers until the prebend is pretty much gone and the mast looks as straight as possible. Now the lowers are tighter than the uppers and they are both pretty darn tight. I have never used a gauge. This has always worked well for me on the J29 for upwind performance in all conditions.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > As far as the sails go, I had a 155 on my J29 and seldom reduced sail but usually had a crew of 7. I have only a 135 on my J28 and It's in poor condition.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > I usually do best with the main strapped in hard and the boom slightly to windward of center. If higher pointing is needed in close situations, I pull the traveler over more to windward which, of course, slows the boat but usually allows me to get up and get by the problem.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > I'm still too new to the 28 to know whether or not this set up will work as well as it did on the 29 but so far it appears to be doing the trick so I'm sticking with it until I find the need of something different.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > Sent from my iPad
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > David L. Hastings
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > Home: 352-794-6440
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:38 AM, John Power <sailingmaster@> wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >> I would be interested in some accurate tuning numbers as well, particularly a rake measurement. Currently I have my mast step max forward and about 900 on my uppers and 750 on the lowers.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >> I would like to see the mast bend a little lower and wonder if som blocks at the mast partner would help.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >> Also how much sag do you carry in the head stay?
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >> I have 4-5 inches I would say and am our Iu adjustment on the RF
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >> I gave raced the boat much, but I know the old genoa needs to be replaced before I can comment on pointing. I use the 135 as well the 150 overpowers the boat quickly in any breeze
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >> JP
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >> Sent from my iPhone
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >> On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:09 AM, John <jfws88@> wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>>
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>> Dave, Interesting, pointing has always been my weakness. Do you have any numbers on your rig set-up? And are you useing a 150% genny. I find I point best with the boom pointed at the leward backstay, not on center. I use a 135% genny and tune my rig to about 80% of the recommended J30 settings. When I don't do well in a race it's almost always due to looses upwind.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>>
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>> John
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>> --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>> >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>> > Haven't gotten my shoal draft J race ready yet so no formal racing to date but I have had several opportunities to buff with a local S2 racer who usually takes home the gold and I can beat the hell out of him upwind. I point higher and go faster and that's before getting my new main.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>> >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>> > Sent from my iPad
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>> >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>> > David L. Hastings
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>> > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>> > Crystal River, FL 34429
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>> > Home: 352-794-6440
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>> > Cell: 315-345-2078
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>> >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>> > On Jul 2, 2012, at 3:10 PM, "Tommy" <evenflow457@> wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>> >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>> > > Hey J28'ers,
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>> > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>> > > Looking for more input on the racing performance of the shoal draft model? I want to mainly cruz, but i still have the "racing bug" urge to race around the bouys.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>> > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>> > > Any thoughts??
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>> > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>> > > Tx Tommy
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>> > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>> > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>> >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>> > __________________________________________________________
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>> > NetZero now offers 4G mobile broadband. Sign up now.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>> > http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT1
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>> >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >>>
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > __________________________________________________________
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > 5 Diet Pills that Work
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > 2012's Top 5 Weight Loss Pills. Updated Consumer Ratings. Free Report.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > DietRatings.org
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > __________________________________________________________
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > 53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4ff300315ee2f2f7de2st51duc
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >








                              ____________________________________________________________
                              Woman is 53 But Looks 25
                              Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors...
                              ConsumerLifestyleMag.com
                            • Tommy Koe
                              David,   I look forward to reports from the north, as you start your new adventure on your new ride.  I am very interested in the performance of the boat vs.
                              Message 14 of 25 , Jul 31, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                David,
                                 
                                I look forward to reports from the north, as you start your new adventure on your new ride.  I am very interested in the performance of the boat vs. other boats as well! 
                                 
                                I agree, I think the build quality and setup of the J/28 is matched by no other. 
                                 
                                Congrats on the hard work and safe sailing to blue waters of South Florida.
                                 
                                tommy
                                From: David Hastings <david.hastings@...>
                                To: "J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com" <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
                                Cc: "J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com" <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 10:53 PM
                                Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

                                 
                                Okay you guys, as the new kid on the block And with relatively little time sailing my SD J28 #30, I can't yet give you a lot of proof on how well the SD J28 does but let me tell you this. I recently moved from upstate NY (Lake Ontario area) to the west coast of Florida and I bought this boat because I long had planned on a SD J28 as my retirement boat. 

                                I grew up racing Flying Dutchmen and was very active in that class as long as it was an Olympic class. I competed in the America trials for the Olympics the year they were held in Kingston, Ontario. In 1969 I sold my FD and purchased a New J24 which I raced actively until 1976 when I traded it in on a new fractional rig J29 which I raced actively until 2010. In 2009 I bought the SD J28 (which had been on the hard for five years, was full of water and a real mess but structurally sound) and spent a year working on it in my front yard. Finally launched it in 2010 and sailed it only briefly that year. The following year I was still working on it most of the summer but got a few short weeks of sailing in. I have just about finished the restoration project and am, in fact, on my way up to NY to splash the boat in a couple of days. I will be living on the boat and sailing it actively in Lake Ontario from the end of this week until Labor Day weekend. Now, what I can tell you is that I, too, was concerned about performance with the SD keel. Those concerns, however, we're put to rest the first time I sailed the boat. I have found it to be excellent up wind as I can out point anything I've bucked with so far including some pretty competitive racers. The boat feels and acts the same as my prior J's. The only short fall I've discovered so far is that light air performance is not what I have been used to in my prior J's. It is sluggish and does not maneuver nearly as well in the real light stuff. I do think it will be a rating beater in most conditions. I'm certain she'll be a winner in moderate to heavy hair. For my money, I don't think there is any boat of similar size the offers such fine accommodations and sails so well - - - - like a J. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.  Now that I have a new main, the rig set up the way I want it and a full month of 24/7's to play around with it, I'll know a lot more next month and I'll be glad to report on what I find. I am really excited about this boat and can't imagine any serious sailor considering anything other than a J, shoal draft or fin!

                                Sent from my iPad

                                David L. Hastings
                                5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                                Crystal River, FL 34429
                                Home: 352-794-6440
                                Cell: 315-345-2078

                                On Jul 30, 2012, at 4:34 PM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@...> wrote:

                                 
                                Hey Jason,
                                 
                                Thanx for the feedback.  Very interesting what RJ had to say.  I understand the dynamics of VMG and VCG.  When you had made the comment about the stiffness of the boat, I immediately started thinking about the deck stiffness.  I have sailed way to many beat up Melges 24's and couldn't un-wrap my head from that.  Thx for the clarification.
                                 
                                I did not know that the SD was 700# heavier!  Maybe to help offset the compromise of the shallower keel?
                                 
                                I live on the East coast of Florida and will be primarily sailing in the intercoastal.  Average depth is ~6-8, but there are quite a few shoals in the area as well that get as shallow as 3 ft.  My plan for the boat is really 2 fold.  I have raced most my life and am starting to slow down just a bit.  My wife loves to sail, but not race.  More cruising or casual sailing.  So my goal was/is to find a boat that can meet my racing needs and her cruising/casual needs.  I had given up hope until I had stumbled onto the J/28.  I have raced on J/24's and J/30's and I love the performance of the J Boat.  Just didn't think I could get a J boat to meet my wifes needs.  Also, at 28', the boat is nice for single or double-handed sailing.
                                 
                                So the boat would doing some local and out of town racing, distance racing and cruising.  To include overnights and possibly cruzing for a week or two each year.   A broad spectrum of requirements, I know.  But if you can have both, then, why not?
                                 
                                Boats with 5' plus keels regularly "bump" while racing in the intercoastal and the couple of boats we do have at the Yacht club that are 6' +, pretty much have to stay close to or in the channel.  Of course, wing keel boats are out of the question! 
                                 
                                One reason I am looking at the SD is that there is one in Florida and that is a big convience factor.  If there were the DD versions down here, I would be much more interested in that type of boat.  It would be the choice version to have. 
                                 
                                As far as budget, not looking to spend more than 40-45k.
                                 
                                How long have you had your J/28?  Do you race mostly or cruise? Or a lot of both.  Most of the guys who I have talked to seems to do a lot of both, which is really exciting.
                                 
                                Thanks for the great info Jason!!!  I appreciate your time.  Oh, BTW, I have read some stuff about rudder issues.  Have you experienced any of that?
                                 
                                TX
                                 
                                Tommy
                                 
                                 

                                From: Jason Smith <jason3317@...>
                                To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 2:12 PM
                                Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

                                 
                                Stiffness is the ability to stand up to wind force acting on the rig.   Good upwind VMGs are only possible with a low, vertical center of gravity (VCG). The lower the weight of the boat relative to its waterplane, the greater the stability, the more sail that can be carried and the smoother the motion.  There is a reason they didn't build many SDs....it is a compromise.

                                The shoal draft chord is much larger when compared to the 5' keel.  The shoal draft is 700# heavier as well.  You are correct that hydrodynamic parameters are different.

                                You really haven't told us much about how you will use the boat and where you are located.  How shallow are the waters where you will sail the boat?  What's your budget, etc, etc?

                                I'm not trying to talk you out of the SD, just passing along information I learned from Rod at the USSS a few years back.  I suspect a SD J/28 will still be faster than most anything in its peer group.  Just not a DD J/28.  

                                Btw, to answer your follow up email.  Yes, I have sailed on J/28 (both deep and shoal).  Yes, I am an owner.

                                -Jason

                                On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@...> wrote:
                                 
                                What stiffness are you referring too?  Stiffness in the hull or stiffness translated into the rig?  How does the shoal draft version affect the stiffness??  Looking at the PHRF ratings, the hit does not seem that substantial.  I would expect some type of weather performance inhibited by the shoal model, but it is only a foot.  Also, by the specs that I have found, they still maintain the 3000lbs of weight in the keel.  (don't know how unless the keel is fatter)  Which would affect the lift of hydrodynamics in the keel. 
                                 
                                I am very interested in your findings as I am looking at a SD J/28.  My local waters can be shallow in some areas which makes the SD version a viable option.  However, if I am looking at a serious degradation in performance and the boat can never sail to her rating, then it doesn't make sense to spend the kind of money for a boat that won't ever sail to her rating.  Might as well get a Catalina 30.  ugh!
                                 
                                Thanks!!! 
                                 
                                Tommy

                                From: J Smith <jason3317@...>
                                To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 1:19 PM

                                Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

                                 
                                The J/28 has a higher center of gravity than other comparable J's of that era. The reason being they need to get accommodation volume into the hull on a 24' LWL. The deep fin keel, also uncommon on the cruising hulls during the time of the UFO keels, helped mitigate some the performance hit. Obviously, the SD gives a similar righting moment, at the expense of windward performance and (imho)...stiffness. I would think very hard before I bought a SD J/28. If you sail in skinny water....it may not be possible. But then I'd be looking at a J/95 or J/108.
                                From: "Tommy" <evenflow457@...>
                                Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 17:00:09 -0000
                                Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance

                                 
                                I sure was hoping you would have said Shoal Draft! That is a pretty sweet finish though. These boats (at least the Fin Keels) sail well to their rating.

                                Tommy

                                --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > Fin keel. Took another 1st last night. Probably blowing around 15, started out with a reefed main, took it out just before rounding the leward mark on the first pass around. The last 3 weeks we have been finishing up front with a 48' Hinckley Sw, their rating is 129, they are in the big boat fleet The RC changed the starting order the last 3 weeks, the small boats are starting with the big boats, we only have 4 small boats that show up on a regular basis out of the 8 that signed up, so the 2 cruising fleets start together but are scored separately. Roy
                                > To: mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com

                                > From: evenflow457@...
                                > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 21:40:51 +0000
                                > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Roy,
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Do you have the Shoal draft or the Fin keel??
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Tommy
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@> wrote:
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > We have our settings at 975 uppers and 775 lowers and with the new main and mast step change are just walking away from our competition, when the wind is over 10 knots. We have the mast base fully forward this year too. The first year we had the mast back, last year it was in the middle and this year all the way forward. If the wind is 6-8 knots, we don't do so well and under 6 we do OK. Our fleet, under 30', starts 5 minutes after the over 30' and by the end of the race we have usually passed all but 2 of the big boats, they range from 30' to 42', all but one are over 35'. We have setup the boat very close to the way the J30's in Marblehead are setup, except maybe about 100 lbs or so lighter on tension. We have a fin keel, gas grill on the stern rail, dodger, cockpit table (put away under sail), anchor stowed under the starboard settee, V-berth linens all on board. We have a fair amount of headstay sag, maybe 8-10 inches in light to medium winds before we start cranking on the backstay. We reef the main at about 14-15 knots of wind and leave the 155% up, bring the leads back, crank on the back stay and pinch (and point) crazy high in the heavier winds, using the pinching to bleed off air. We have a fairly light weight crew and race with about 5-6 people in the cruising fleet, 3 are women. We have the 155 set with 3 holes showing behind the lead. We usually out point everyone by huge amounts except for an Alerion 28 and a Baby Beneteau 235. On a good day (over 10 knots) we are even boat speed with the Alerion upwind and we are always faster downwind. We usually sail in a dying breeze on Tuesday nights, it might start out around 10-12 knots and slowly craps out. Roy
                                >
                                > > To: mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com

                                >
                                > > From: jfws88@
                                >
                                > > Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 16:52:10 +0000
                                >
                                > > Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > Interesting, When Todd measured my boat for Roy's main he asked if I sail with the rig this loose. And, he really cranked the backstay for one of the measurements. I mean pully down to the hand rail tight. I'd never seem my mast bend that much. His words,"perfectly normal"
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > I use the back stay alot in a breeze to help flatten the boat and ease weather helm but I never pulled it that far. Conclusion for me, my rig is too loose by all accounts here.
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > Dave, I'm not sure if I'll go all the my to your tuning but I will take heed of 42 years racing J boats.
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > Tommy,
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > I have a shoal draft. With my rig tuned as described, the back stay is off all the way most of the time except cranked in on heavy puffs going upwind. To the best of my knowledge, fractional rig J's always should have the lowers tighter than the uppers. In all my years of J racing (that would be 42 years), I have never seen a J mast given way or broken. Having the lowers tighter than the uppers allows the upper third of the mast to fall off in heavy air allowing the main to dump some load and the boat sails flatter. Again, all this is for fractional rigs only.
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > Sent from my iPad
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > David L. Hastings
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > Home: 352-794-6440
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 8:22 AM, Tommy Koe <evenflow457@> wrote:
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > > David,
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > > Do you have a shoal draft or the 5' version?
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > > That makes sense that you are faster upwind than downwind. With the rig that tight, you are not allowing it sag or bend forward when sailing downwind. However, don't ease you backstay too much downwind though. With the lowers on hard, the mast could snap in moderate conditions. I am curious though, with the lowers tighter than the uppers, do you find yourself needing to ease the main to stay powered up when sailing upwind?
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > > JP,
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > > You definitely want to move your mast step back. That gives your main better shape and allows more draft when needed in light stuff and in chop. As far as sag, on an older gennie, you can tighten your halyard a more than with a new one. This will move the draft forward as you always fighting the draft moving aft in older sails.
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > > I am getting all pumped up about these boats and I don't have one, YET!!
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > > Tommy
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > > From: David Hastings <david.hastings@>
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > > To: "mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com>
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 7:38 AM
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Shoal Draft Performance
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > > John, pointing has always been my strength. My losses have always been down wind. I am not a numbers guy. I've always been a seat of the pants sailor. I've set up my boat the same as I tuned my J29 as follows:
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > > Head stay is at maximum length and mast has a slight rake. Mast step it not all the way forward. I'd guess it's about 1"ahead of center. Making sure everything is neutral and mast is centered, I pull on the back stay as hard and far as possible. Next, I tighten the uppers until the back stay begins to loosen a bit so the uppers are real tight. Now I release the back stay and the mast in really bent. Next I tighten the lowers until the prebend is pretty much gone and the mast looks as straight as possible. Now the lowers are tighter than the uppers and they are both pretty darn tight. I have never used a gauge. This has always worked well for me on the J29 for upwind performance in all conditions.
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > > As far as the sails go, I had a 155 on my J29 and seldom reduced sail but usually had a crew of 7. I have only a 135 on my J28 and It's in poor condition.
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > > I usually do best with the main strapped in hard and the boom slightly to windward of center. If higher pointing is needed in close situations, I pull the traveler over more to windward which, of course, slows the boat but usually allows me to get up and get by the problem.
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > > I'm still too new to the 28 to know whether or not this set up will work as well as it did on the 29 but so far it appears to be doing the trick so I'm sticking with it until I find the need of something different.
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > > Sent from my iPad
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > > David L. Hastings
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > > Crystal River, FL 34429
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > > Home: 352-794-6440
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > > Cell: 315-345-2078
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > > On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:38 AM, John Power <sailingmaster@> wrote:
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >> I would be interested in some accurate tuning numbers as well, particularly a rake measurement. Currently I have my mast step max forward and about 900 on my uppers and 750 on the lowers.
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >> I would like to see the mast bend a little lower and wonder if som blocks at the mast partner would help.
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >> Also how much sag do you carry in the head stay?
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >> I have 4-5 inches I would say and am our Iu adjustment on the RF
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >> I gave raced the boat much, but I know the old genoa needs to be replaced before I can comment on pointing. I use the 135 as well the 150 overpowers the boat quickly in any breeze
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >> JP
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >> Sent from my iPhone
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >> On Jul 3, 2012, at 6:09 AM, John <jfws88@> wrote:
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>>
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>> Dave, Interesting, pointing has always been my weakness. Do you have any numbers on your rig set-up? And are you useing a 150% genny. I find I point best with the boom pointed at the leward backstay, not on center. I use a 135% genny and tune my rig to about 80% of the recommended J30 settings. When I don't do well in a race it's almost always due to looses upwind.
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>>
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>> John
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>> --- In mailto:J28Sailors%40yahoogroups.com, David Hastings <david.hastings@> wrote:
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>> >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>> > Haven't gotten my shoal draft J race ready yet so no formal racing to date but I have had several opportunities to buff with a local S2 racer who usually takes home the gold and I can beat the hell out of him upwind. I point higher and go faster and that's before getting my new main.
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>> >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>> > Sent from my iPad
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>> >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>> > David L. Hastings
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>> > 5608 W. Woodside Dr.
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>> > Crystal River, FL 34429
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>> > Home: 352-794-6440
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>> > Cell: 315-345-2078
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>> >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>> > On Jul 2, 2012, at 3:10 PM, "Tommy" <evenflow457@> wrote:
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>> >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>> > > Hey J28'ers,
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>> > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>> > > Looking for more input on the racing performance of the shoal draft model? I want to mainly cruz, but i still have the "racing bug" urge to race around the bouys.
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>> > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>> > > Any thoughts??
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>> > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>> > > Tx Tommy
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>> > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>> > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>> >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>> > __________________________________________________________
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>> > NetZero now offers 4G mobile broadband. Sign up now.
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>> > http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT1
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>> >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >>>
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > > __________________________________________________________
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > > 5 Diet Pills that Work
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > > 2012's Top 5 Weight Loss Pills. Updated Consumer Ratings. Free Report.
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > > DietRatings.org
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > __________________________________________________________
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > 53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4ff300315ee2f2f7de2st51duc
                                >
                                > >
                                >
                                > > >
                                >
                                > >
                                >








                                ____________________________________________________________
                                Woman is 53 But Looks 25
                                Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors...
                                ConsumerLifestyleMag.com


                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.