Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Rudders

Expand Messages
  • John
    Regarding the rudder bearing(s), please note that eliminating the play in the rudder is a little more complex than replacing the lower bearing. My case in
    Message 1 of 14 , May 12, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      Regarding the rudder bearing(s), please note that eliminating the play in the rudder is a little more complex than replacing the lower bearing.
      My case in point: I dropped my rudder a couple of years ago with the intent of replacing the bearing because of the "slop" I could feel. After looking at the assembly I said "why and I doing this" I measured the ID of the delrin sleeve and the OD of the stainless ring on the rudder. Well 0.006-0.010" clearance for a journal bearing is ok with me. And there's very little potential for failure here so I put it back together.

      The biggest issue is the distance between the top bearing and the lower bearing and just how "true" the rudder shaft is. In order to eliminate any play the shaft has to be true and the top and bottom bearings aligned. If one feels different resistance when you turn the wheel one way and then the other, chances are the shaft isn't true and/or the bearing are not aligned
      Replacing the bottom bearing is a pretty big (read expensive) job. If you want to do this for peace of mind feel free. If you want the best possible solution the rudder shaft needs to be turned up. This will take a pretty special piece of equipment and machine shop that can do it (read more expensive) then the lower bearing can be replaced and the top bearing replaced or at least floated in. If your biggest worry is the rudder falling out or breaking, fear not this is one of the strongest rudders I've ever seem. Now the weak link, there always is one. The only thing holding the rudder in the boat is the bond between the sleeve at the top and the fiberglass post and the single bolt going thru them. Personally I drilled thru and added another bolt. I also adjust my steering cable to be just tight enough and apply a light press on the packing gland. I do feel a slight a difference when I turn the wheel meaning my rudder shaft is not true but it spins very feely. I've had other drivers tell me "for a wheel steering the boat has great "feel"

      Sail Fast
      John
    • john power
      Thats what I figure is wrong with my rudder. The previous ownders paid a ton of money to the boat yard and had to have the job done a second time. I think the
      Message 2 of 14 , May 12, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        Thats what I figure is wrong with my rudder. The previous ownders paid a ton of money to the boat yard and had to have the job done a second time.  I think the bill got so high that they got frustrated and decided to live with it.
        I didnt realize how poorly it was done until after I bought the boat.  I am hoping to drop the rudder next fall and have the shaft trued, but I dread the bill for this!!!!!  I also hope that the wet spot in my rudder might be the fairing problem that Hans mentioned....this gave me some hope.  

        is there a stainless shaft inside this rudder or is it just one massive fiberglass construction?  I am trying to figure out how the water could be getting in to begin with.

        I really love the boat so far.  The old owners did a ton of up grades.  This is just one big problem I did not foresee and it makes sailing the boat a lot less enjoyable.  There is NO feel to the wheel and it can be tough to keep the boat on here feet when its really shifty in big winds. 

        Other questions I have are rig tuning ideas, the old owners thought the boat was overpowered do to an old deep main. I think the rig tune was more of the issue.  The mast butt was al the way and there is a ton of sag in the headstay
        (the boat yard tuned the boat to last years settings), so i figure the boat had minimal rake and too deep a slot.  I have moved the mast step forward but wondering what people do for rig tension and  headstay  tension/sag.
        The J30 numbers seem really tight, and given the age of the boat I dont know about cranking things up that tight.  I probably wont race the boat much this year, but have alwasy sailed fast one designs I like to get the most performance out of her that I can.

        last question, for today anhow, does anyone know the correct size and pitch prop to match the boat and the 2gm?  This boat came with a three blade prop which i think is incorrectly matched to the boat. Again, the old owners used the diesel very little.  During the delivery, we had to fight some really strong head winds and seas. The diesel cant reach is max rpm of 32-3400 and if really pushed sends out black smoke. I am new to diesels but my studying tell me 
        that this is and indication of the boat being overpropped. (All of the filters are clean, and I had the old diesel pumped out and the tank cleaned as well)

        Thanks to all for your advice to this big boat newbie!

        JP

        On May 12, 2011, at 12:42 PM, John wrote:

        Regarding the rudder bearing(s), please note that eliminating the play in the rudder is a little more complex than replacing the lower bearing. 
        My case in point: I dropped my rudder a couple of years ago with the intent of replacing the bearing because of the "slop" I could feel. After looking at the assembly I said "why and I doing this" I measured the ID of the delrin sleeve and the OD of the stainless ring on the rudder. Well 0.006-0.010" clearance for a journal bearing is ok with me. And there's very little potential for failure here so I put it back together. 

        The biggest issue is the distance between the top bearing and the lower bearing and just how "true" the rudder shaft is. In order to eliminate any play the shaft has to be true and the top and bottom bearings aligned. If one feels different resistance when you turn the wheel one way and then the other, chances are the shaft isn't true and/or the bearing are not aligned
        Replacing the bottom bearing is a pretty big (read expensive) job. If you want to do this for peace of mind feel free. If you want the best possible solution the rudder shaft needs to be turned up. This will take a pretty special piece of equipment and machine shop that can do it (read more expensive) then the lower bearing can be replaced and the top bearing replaced or at least floated in. If your biggest worry is the rudder falling out or breaking, fear not this is one of the strongest rudders I've ever seem. Now the weak link, there always is one. The only thing holding the rudder in the boat is the bond between the sleeve at the top and the fiberglass post and the single bolt going thru them. Personally I drilled thru and added another bolt. I also adjust my steering cable to be just tight enough and apply a light press on the packing gland. I do feel a slight a difference when I turn the wheel meaning my rudder shaft is not true but it spins very feely. I've had other drivers tell me "for a wheel steering the boat has great "feel"

        Sail Fast
        John


      • John
        JP, To answer your questions. I couldn t find any evidence that the rudder is anything other than a big hunk of glass, no SS shaft. When I pulled my rubber I
        Message 3 of 14 , May 12, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          JP, To answer your questions. I couldn't find any evidence that the rudder is anything other than a big hunk of glass, no SS shaft. When I pulled my rubber I drilled a half dozen holes on the bottom and drained what water in there out. My guess, not more than three oz's and I did this on the top and bottom. How the water gets in? Agian my guess, it gets in from the top draining down the inside of the shaft from either condensation or leaks from the round hatch cover. I now put a piece of duct duck on the top. Piece of mind more than anything else.

          Rig tune; I use the J30 numbers at about 75% I can count on one hand how many times I've been over powered with a full main and a 135% genny, my primary sail combination. When it's blowing you do need to pay attention to the main sheet as with any boat. I sail pretty agressively whether racing or not.

          This year I'm moving the mast step forward. I've never been real happy with my pointing. I hope that helps.

          Regarding your rudder. At this point you may have a compound problem of the bearing out of line and the shaft not true. That would really suck but if your going to fix it make sure the yard knows what the're doing and has the ability. To true the shaft you'll have to find a machine shop with a lathe that can swing 24" dia or so.

          I can't comment on the prop other than the original 2 blade folding works pretty good but reverse is much more of a suggestion than command.

          John



          --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, john power <sailingmaster@...> wrote:
          >
          > Thats what I figure is wrong with my rudder. The previous ownders paid
          > a ton of money to the boat yard and had to have the job done a second
          > time. I think the bill got so high that they got frustrated and
          > decided to live with it.
          > I didnt realize how poorly it was done until after I bought the boat.
          > I am hoping to drop the rudder next fall and have the shaft trued, but
          > I dread the bill for this!!!!! I also hope that the wet spot in my
          > rudder might be the fairing problem that Hans mentioned....this gave
          > me some hope.
          >
          > is there a stainless shaft inside this rudder or is it just one
          > massive fiberglass construction? I am trying to figure out how the
          > water could be getting in to begin with.
          >
          > I really love the boat so far. The old owners did a ton of up
          > grades. This is just one big problem I did not foresee and it makes
          > sailing the boat a lot less enjoyable. There is NO feel to the wheel
          > and it can be tough to keep the boat on here feet when its really
          > shifty in big winds.
          >
          > Other questions I have are rig tuning ideas, the old owners thought
          > the boat was overpowered do to an old deep main. I think the rig tune
          > was more of the issue. The mast butt was al the way and there is a
          > ton of sag in the headstay
          > (the boat yard tuned the boat to last years settings), so i figure the
          > boat had minimal rake and too deep a slot. I have moved the mast step
          > forward but wondering what people do for rig tension and headstay
          > tension/sag.
          > The J30 numbers seem really tight, and given the age of the boat I
          > dont know about cranking things up that tight. I probably wont race
          > the boat much this year, but have alwasy sailed fast one designs I
          > like to get the most performance out of her that I can.
          >
          > last question, for today anhow, does anyone know the correct size and
          > pitch prop to match the boat and the 2gm? This boat came with a three
          > blade prop which i think is incorrectly matched to the boat. Again,
          > the old owners used the diesel very little. During the delivery, we
          > had to fight some really strong head winds and seas. The diesel cant
          > reach is max rpm of 32-3400 and if really pushed sends out black
          > smoke. I am new to diesels but my studying tell me
          > that this is and indication of the boat being overpropped. (All of the
          > filters are clean, and I had the old diesel pumped out and the tank
          > cleaned as well)
          >
          > Thanks to all for your advice to this big boat newbie!
          >
          > JP
          >
          > On May 12, 2011, at 12:42 PM, John wrote:
          >
          > > Regarding the rudder bearing(s), please note that eliminating the
          > > play in the rudder is a little more complex than replacing the lower
          > > bearing.
          > > My case in point: I dropped my rudder a couple of years ago with the
          > > intent of replacing the bearing because of the "slop" I could feel.
          > > After looking at the assembly I said "why and I doing this" I
          > > measured the ID of the delrin sleeve and the OD of the stainless
          > > ring on the rudder. Well 0.006-0.010" clearance for a journal
          > > bearing is ok with me. And there's very little potential for failure
          > > here so I put it back together.
          > >
          > > The biggest issue is the distance between the top bearing and the
          > > lower bearing and just how "true" the rudder shaft is. In order to
          > > eliminate any play the shaft has to be true and the top and bottom
          > > bearings aligned. If one feels different resistance when you turn
          > > the wheel one way and then the other, chances are the shaft isn't
          > > true and/or the bearing are not aligned
          > > Replacing the bottom bearing is a pretty big (read expensive) job.
          > > If you want to do this for peace of mind feel free. If you want the
          > > best possible solution the rudder shaft needs to be turned up. This
          > > will take a pretty special piece of equipment and machine shop that
          > > can do it (read more expensive) then the lower bearing can be
          > > replaced and the top bearing replaced or at least floated in. If
          > > your biggest worry is the rudder falling out or breaking, fear not
          > > this is one of the strongest rudders I've ever seem. Now the weak
          > > link, there always is one. The only thing holding the rudder in the
          > > boat is the bond between the sleeve at the top and the fiberglass
          > > post and the single bolt going thru them. Personally I drilled thru
          > > and added another bolt. I also adjust my steering cable to be just
          > > tight enough and apply a light press on the packing gland. I do feel
          > > a slight a difference when I turn the wheel meaning my rudder shaft
          > > is not true but it spins very feely. I've had other drivers tell me
          > > "for a wheel steering the boat has great "feel"
          > >
          > > Sail Fast
          > > John
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
        • john power
          Wow thanks for the detailed answers! Having sailed high performance dinghys most of my life, I am going to pony up the cash and get this problem fixed. So I do
          Message 4 of 14 , May 12, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            Wow thanks for the detailed answers!

            Having sailed high performance dinghys most of my life, I am going to pony up the cash and get this problem fixed. So I do appreciate the advice.  As I mentioned the previous owners were great guys and did a lot to improve my boat.  I dont think they had any previous experience with wheel steering so for their tastes the job might have been fine, or they decided to put the brakes on the boat yards billing office.  I guess by the time the whole job was done it was over 3500!  I am hoping the new bearing they put in is still okay and that I just need to get the shaft trued/aligned.  This is my first boat with a wheel and I have a lot to get used to as well....

            As for the water in the rudder, I have heard lots of different advice on this issue.  Some are of the opinion that since there is no shaft in the rudder, that it is less of a problem than if there were SS inside to corrode.
            I am debating bringing it home, drying it in my basement, re glassing and sealing with barrier coat  OR  Just re glassing the small damaged area and drilling a drain hole each fall. I may start there and see how bad it is, but I would like to avoid paying the boat yard to drop the rudder twice.   You mentioned duct tape?  Where do you put that?

            Also pointing. I havent sailed against anyone yet to compare, but I did move my mast step to the max forward position. I have an old roller furling 135 and the boat doesnt seem to point as well with that as it does with my 150. The 150 was clearly made for racing (kevlar tri radial) and it tacks to the deck.  My biggest concern is the huge amount of sag in the headstay. I will see how it is when I tighten the uppers. I may have to take some length out of the headstay as well...it sags off about 15 inches.  Again, having never had roller furling I dont know how much is too much. I know that on the J24s and solings  I used torace we used a TON of headstay sag, esp in lighter winds.

            If anyone out there knows the size and pitch of the folding prop that would be appreciated. There is a really good one for sale locally. Its almost new and its 300 bucks (as compared to the 1000 price tag I have seen) My three blade is great in reverse but I am convinced that when the engine is running at higher rpms its overloaded. OTH, maybe I should live with this prop and just run at lower rpms?  I think its nice to know you have that extra power when you need it, but dont know how the folding props react...Again as a racing sailor, the idea of dragging the fixed prop thru the water really bothers my from a pyschological point of view!

            Thank you all again for the information and assistance

            JP


            On May 12, 2011, at 8:20 PM, John wrote:

            JP, To answer your questions. I couldn't find any evidence that the rudder is anything other than a big hunk of glass, no SS shaft. When I pulled my rubber I drilled a half dozen holes on the bottom and drained what water in there out. My guess, not more than three oz's and I did this on the top and bottom. How the water gets in? Agian my guess, it gets in from the top draining down the inside of the shaft from either condensation or leaks from the round hatch cover. I now put a piece of duct duck on the top. Piece of mind more than anything else.

            Rig tune; I use the J30 numbers at about 75% I can count on one hand how many times I've been over powered with a full main and a 135% genny, my primary sail combination. When it's blowing you do need to pay attention to the main sheet as with any boat. I sail pretty agressively whether racing or not.

            This year I'm moving the mast step forward. I've never been real happy with my pointing. I hope that helps.

            Regarding your rudder. At this point you may have a compound problem of the bearing out of line and the shaft not true. That would really suck but if your going to fix it make sure the yard knows what the're doing and has the ability. To true the shaft you'll have to find a machine shop with a lathe that can swing 24" dia or so.

            I can't comment on the prop other than the original 2 blade folding works pretty good but reverse is much more of a suggestion than command.

            John

            --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, john power <sailingmaster@...> wrote:
            >
            > Thats what I figure is wrong with my rudder. The previous ownders paid 
            > a ton of money to the boat yard and had to have the job done a second 
            > time. I think the bill got so high that they got frustrated and 
            > decided to live with it.
            > I didnt realize how poorly it was done until after I bought the boat. 
            > I am hoping to drop the rudder next fall and have the shaft trued, but 
            > I dread the bill for this!!!!! I also hope that the wet spot in my 
            > rudder might be the fairing problem that Hans mentioned....this gave 
            > me some hope.
            > 
            > is there a stainless shaft inside this rudder or is it just one 
            > massive fiberglass construction? I am trying to figure out how the 
            > water could be getting in to begin with.
            > 
            > I really love the boat so far. The old owners did a ton of up 
            > grades. This is just one big problem I did not foresee and it makes 
            > sailing the boat a lot less enjoyable. There is NO feel to the wheel 
            > and it can be tough to keep the boat on here feet when its really 
            > shifty in big winds.
            > 
            > Other questions I have are rig tuning ideas, the old owners thought 
            > the boat was overpowered do to an old deep main. I think the rig tune 
            > was more of the issue. The mast butt was al the way and there is a 
            > ton of sag in the headstay
            > (the boat yard tuned the boat to last years settings), so i figure the 
            > boat had minimal rake and too deep a slot. I have moved the mast step 
            > forward but wondering what people do for rig tension and headstay 
            > tension/sag.
            > The J30 numbers seem really tight, and given the age of the boat I 
            > dont know about cranking things up that tight. I probably wont race 
            > the boat much this year, but have alwasy sailed fast one designs I 
            > like to get the most performance out of her that I can.
            > 
            > last question, for today anhow, does anyone know the correct size and 
            > pitch prop to match the boat and the 2gm? This boat came with a three 
            > blade prop which i think is incorrectly matched to the boat. Again, 
            > the old owners used the diesel very little. During the delivery, we 
            > had to fight some really strong head winds and seas. The diesel cant 
            > reach is max rpm of 32-3400 and if really pushed sends out black 
            > smoke. I am new to diesels but my studying tell me
            > that this is and indication of the boat being overpropped. (All of the 
            > filters are clean, and I had the old diesel pumped out and the tank 
            > cleaned as well)
            > 
            > Thanks to all for your advice to this big boat newbie!
            > 
            > JP
            > 
            > On May 12, 2011, at 12:42 PM, John wrote:
            > 
            > > Regarding the rudder bearing(s), please note that eliminating the 
            > > play in the rudder is a little more complex than replacing the lower 
            > > bearing.
            > > My case in point: I dropped my rudder a couple of years ago with the 
            > > intent of replacing the bearing because of the "slop" I could feel. 
            > > After looking at the assembly I said "why and I doing this" I 
            > > measured the ID of the delrin sleeve and the OD of the stainless 
            > > ring on the rudder. Well 0.006-0.010" clearance for a journal 
            > > bearing is ok with me. And there's very little potential for failure 
            > > here so I put it back together.
            > >
            > > The biggest issue is the distance between the top bearing and the 
            > > lower bearing and just how "true" the rudder shaft is. In order to 
            > > eliminate any play the shaft has to be true and the top and bottom 
            > > bearings aligned. If one feels different resistance when you turn 
            > > the wheel one way and then the other, chances are the shaft isn't 
            > > true and/or the bearing are not aligned
            > > Replacing the bottom bearing is a pretty big (read expensive) job. 
            > > If you want to do this for peace of mind feel free. If you want the 
            > > best possible solution the rudder shaft needs to be turned up. This 
            > > will take a pretty special piece of equipment and machine shop that 
            > > can do it (read more expensive) then the lower bearing can be 
            > > replaced and the top bearing replaced or at least floated in. If 
            > > your biggest worry is the rudder falling out or breaking, fear not 
            > > this is one of the strongest rudders I've ever seem. Now the weak 
            > > link, there always is one. The only thing holding the rudder in the 
            > > boat is the bond between the sleeve at the top and the fiberglass 
            > > post and the single bolt going thru them. Personally I drilled thru 
            > > and added another bolt. I also adjust my steering cable to be just 
            > > tight enough and apply a light press on the packing gland. I do feel 
            > > a slight a difference when I turn the wheel meaning my rudder shaft 
            > > is not true but it spins very feely. I've had other drivers tell me 
            > > "for a wheel steering the boat has great "feel"
            > >
            > > Sail Fast
            > > John
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >


          • Roy Briscoe
            I would not recommend the folding props w/o the teeth, they flop around and you have to set the shaft position for racing so they don t open. The ones with the
            Message 5 of 14 , May 13, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              I would not recommend the folding props w/o the teeth, they flop around and you have to set the shaft position for racing so they don't open. The ones with the teeth stay shut and you don't have to set the shaft.
               
              I think the recommend pitch is 15? I can't remember. I had contacted Martec or one of those companies last year looking into a feathering prop, but decided I didn't want to spend $2500. I ran across the pitch specs somewhere on the web too, it matched the Yanmar engines to prop pitches. The folding prop is probably a little better in lobster pot country than a feathering prop anyway, less to catch on.
               
              Our 135 doesn't point very well either, the 150 is better, but you do need wind, like over 8-10 knots to get the boat going. And open the 150 up to at least a foot off the spreaders in under 8 knots of wind. I think the genny trim is pretty close to the J24 trim in all wind conditions. Can't say that for the main trim though, the J24 is unique. We do have a lot of headstay sag, but I think that is normal to JBoats. I race on a friends J30 occasionally it they have the same thing.
               
              Roy
              #29
               

              To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
              From: sailingmaster@...
              Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 21:00:30 -0400
              Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Rudders

               
              Wow thanks for the detailed answers!

              Having sailed high performance dinghys most of my life, I am going to pony up the cash and get this problem fixed. So I do appreciate the advice.  As I mentioned the previous owners were great guys and did a lot to improve my boat.  I dont think they had any previous experience with wheel steering so for their tastes the job might have been fine, or they decided to put the brakes on the boat yards billing office.  I guess by the time the whole job was done it was over 3500!  I am hoping the new bearing they put in is still okay and that I just need to get the shaft trued/aligned.  This is my first boat with a wheel and I have a lot to get used to as well....

              As for the water in the rudder, I have heard lots of different advice on this issue.  Some are of the opinion that since there is no shaft in the rudder, that it is less of a problem than if there were SS inside to corrode.
              I am debating bringing it home, drying it in my basement, re glassing and sealing with barrier coat  OR  Just re glassing the small damaged area and drilling a drain hole each fall. I may start there and see how bad it is, but I would like to avoid paying the boat yard to drop the rudder twice.   You mentioned duct tape?  Where do you put that?

              Also pointing. I havent sailed against anyone yet to compare, but I did move my mast step to the max forward position. I have an old roller furling 135 and the boat doesnt seem to point as well with that as it does with my 150. The 150 was clearly made for racing (kevlar tri radial) and it tacks to the deck.  My biggest concern is the huge amount of sag in the headstay. I will see how it is when I tighten the uppers. I may have to take some length out of the headstay as well...it sags off about 15 inches.  Again, having never had roller furling I dont know how much is too much. I know that on the J24s and solings  I used torace we used a TON of headstay sag, esp in lighter winds.

              If anyone out there knows the size and pitch of the folding prop that would be appreciated. There is a really good one for sale locally. Its almost new and its 300 bucks (as compared to the 1000 price tag I have seen) My three blade is great in reverse but I am convinced that when the engine is running at higher rpms its overloaded. OTH, maybe I should live with this prop and just run at lower rpms?  I think its nice to know you have that extra power when you need it, but dont know how the folding props react...Again as a racing sailor, the idea of dragging the fixed prop thru the water really bothers my from a pyschological point of view!

              Thank you all again for the information and assistance

              JP


              On May 12, 2011, at 8:20 PM, John wrote:

              JP, To answer your questions. I couldn't find any evidence that the rudder is anything other than a big hunk of glass, no SS shaft. When I pulled my rubber I drilled a half dozen holes on the bottom and drained what water in there out. My guess, not more than three oz's and I did this on the top and bottom. How the water gets in? Agian my guess, it gets in from the top draining down the inside of the shaft from either condensation or leaks from the round hatch cover. I now put a piece of duct duck on the top. Piece of mind more than anything else.

              Rig tune; I use the J30 numbers at about 75% I can count on one hand how many times I've been over powered with a full main and a 135% genny, my primary sail combination. When it's blowing you do need to pay attention to the main sheet as with any boat. I sail pretty agressively whether racing or not.

              This year I'm moving the mast step forward. I've never been real happy with my pointing. I hope that helps.

              Regarding your rudder. At this point you may have a compound problem of the bearing out of line and the shaft not true. That would really suck but if your going to fix it make sure the yard knows what the're doing and has the ability. To true the shaft you'll have to find a machine shop with a lathe that can swing 24" dia or so.

              I can't comment on the prop other than the original 2 blade folding works pretty good but reverse is much more of a suggestion than command.

              John

              --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, john power <sailingmaster@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thats what I figure is wrong with my rudder. The previous ownders paid 
              > a ton of money to the boat yard and had to have the job done a second 
              > time. I think the bill got so high that they got frustrated and 
              > decided to live with it.
              > I didnt realize how poorly it was done until after I bought the boat. 
              > I am hoping to drop the rudder next fall and have the shaft trued, but 
              > I dread the bill for this!!!!! I also hope that the wet spot in my 
              > rudder might be the fairing problem that Hans mentioned....this gave 
              > me some hope.
              > 
              > is there a stainless shaft inside this rudder or is it just one 
              > massive fiberglass construction? I am trying to figure out how the 
              > water could be getting in to begin with.
              > 
              > I really love the boat so far. The old owners did a ton of up 
              > grades. This is just one big problem I did not foresee and it makes 
              > sailing the boat a lot less enjoyable. There is NO feel to the wheel 
              > and it can be tough to keep the boat on here feet when its really 
              > shifty in big winds.
              > 
              > Other questions I have are rig tuning ideas, the old owners thought 
              > the boat was overpowered do to an old deep main. I think the rig tune 
              > was more of the issue. The mast butt was al the way and there is a 
              > ton of sag in the headstay
              > (the boat yard tuned the boat to last years settings), so i figure the 
              > boat had minimal rake and too deep a slot. I have moved the mast step 
              > forward but wondering what people do for rig tension and headstay 
              > tension/sag.
              > The J30 numbers seem really tight, and given the age of the boat I 
              > dont know about cranking things up that tight. I probably wont race 
              > the boat much this year, but have alwasy sailed fast one designs I 
              > like to get the most performance out of her that I can.
              > 
              > last question, for today anhow, does anyone know the correct size and 
              > pitch prop to match the boat and the 2gm? This boat came with a three 
              > blade prop which i think is incorrectly matched to the boat. Again, 
              > the old owners used the diesel very little. During the delivery, we 
              > had to fight some really strong head winds and seas. The diesel cant 
              > reach is max rpm of 32-3400 and if really pushed sends out black 
              > smoke. I am new to diesels but my studying tell me
              > that this is and indication of the boat being overpropped. (All of the 
              > filters are clean, and I had the old diesel pumped out and the tank 
              > cleaned as well)
              > 
              > Thanks to all for your advice to this big boat newbie!
              > 
              > JP
              > 
              > On May 12, 2011, at 12:42 PM, John wrote:
              > 
              > > Regarding the rudder bearing(s), please note that eliminating the 
              > > play in the rudder is a little more complex than replacing the lower 
              > > bearing.
              > > My case in point: I dropped my rudder a couple of years ago with the 
              > > intent of replacing the bearing because of the "slop" I could feel. 
              > > After looking at the assembly I said "why and I doing this" I 
              > > measured the ID of the delrin sleeve and the OD of the stainless 
              > > ring on the rudder. Well 0.006-0.010" clearance for a journal 
              > > bearing is ok with me. And there's very little potential for failure 
              > > here so I put it back together.
              > >
              > > The biggest issue is the distance between the top bearing and the 
              > > lower bearing and just how "true" the rudder shaft is. In order to 
              > > eliminate any play the shaft has to be true and the top and bottom 
              > > bearings aligned. If one feels different resistance when you turn 
              > > the wheel one way and then the other, chances are the shaft isn't 
              > > true and/or the bearing are not aligned
              > > Replacing the bottom bearing is a pretty big (read expensive) job. 
              > > If you want to do this for peace of mind feel free. If you want the 
              > > best possible solution the rudder shaft needs to be turned up. This 
              > > will take a pretty special piece of equipment and machine shop that 
              > > can do it (read more expensive) then the lower bearing can be 
              > > replaced and the top bearing replaced or at least floated in. If 
              > > your biggest worry is the rudder falling out or breaking, fear not 
              > > this is one of the strongest rudders I've ever seem. Now the weak 
              > > link, there always is one. The only thing holding the rudder in the 
              > > boat is the bond between the sleeve at the top and the fiberglass 
              > > post and the single bolt going thru them. Personally I drilled thru 
              > > and added another bolt. I also adjust my steering cable to be just 
              > > tight enough and apply a light press on the packing gland. I do feel 
              > > a slight a difference when I turn the wheel meaning my rudder shaft 
              > > is not true but it spins very feely. I've had other drivers tell me 
              > > "for a wheel steering the boat has great "feel"
              > >
              > > Sail Fast
              > > John
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >




            • Roy Briscoe
              I think the J30 numbers are way too tight, and my J30 buddy thinks the J30 numbers are too tight for the J30. We took 5th in the Nationals last year in
              Message 6 of 14 , May 13, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                I think the J30 numbers are way too tight, and my J30 buddy thinks the J30 numbers are too tight for the J30. We took 5th in the Nationals last year in Marblehead and had a bullet in one race, and he has won the Shields Nationals 3 times, so I trust his judgement.
                 
                We played around with the rig last year and seem to settle in the vicinity of 760 for the lowers and 960 for the uppers for 10-14 knots of wind and adjusted from there depending on wind conditions. Though 200 lbs in either direction didn't seem to make a lot of difference.  We tie the uppers to the lowers at the turnbuckle with some line and don't use any rings through the turnbuckle to keep it from unscrewing. Makes it easier for adjusting.
                 
                The idea being to get the mast to do what you want and not too to drive it through the bottom of the boat with high tension.
                 
                Roy
                 

                To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                From: sailingmaster@...
                Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 18:36:45 -0400
                Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Rudders

                 
                Thats what I figure is wrong with my rudder. The previous ownders paid a ton of money to the boat yard and had to have the job done a second time.  I think the bill got so high that they got frustrated and decided to live with it.
                I didnt realize how poorly it was done until after I bought the boat.  I am hoping to drop the rudder next fall and have the shaft trued, but I dread the bill for this!!!!!  I also hope that the wet spot in my rudder might be the fairing problem that Hans mentioned....this gave me some hope.  

                is there a stainless shaft inside this rudder or is it just one massive fiberglass construction?  I am trying to figure out how the water could be getting in to begin with.

                I really love the boat so far.  The old owners did a ton of up grades.  This is just one big problem I did not foresee and it makes sailing the boat a lot less enjoyable.  There is NO feel to the wheel and it can be tough to keep the boat on here feet when its really shifty in big winds. 

                Other questions I have are rig tuning ideas, the old owners thought the boat was overpowered do to an old deep main. I think the rig tune was more of the issue.  The mast butt was al the way and there is a ton of sag in the headstay
                (the boat yard tuned the boat to last years settings), so i figure the boat had minimal rake and too deep a slot.  I have moved the mast step forward but wondering what people do for rig tension and  headstay  tension/sag.
                The J30 numbers seem really tight, and given the age of the boat I dont know about cranking things up that tight.  I probably wont race the boat much this year, but have alwasy sailed fast one designs I like to get the most performance out of her that I can.

                last question, for today anhow, does anyone know the correct size and pitch prop to match the boat and the 2gm?  This boat came with a three blade prop which i think is incorrectly matched to the boat. Again, the old owners used the diesel very little.  During the delivery, we had to fight some really strong head winds and seas. The diesel cant reach is max rpm of 32-3400 and if really pushed sends out black smoke. I am new to diesels but my studying tell me 
                that this is and indication of the boat being overpropped. (All of the filters are clean, and I had the old diesel pumped out and the tank cleaned as well)

                Thanks to all for your advice to this big boat newbie!

                JP

                On May 12, 2011, at 12:42 PM, John wrote:

                Regarding the rudder bearing(s), please note that eliminating the play in the rudder is a little more complex than replacing the lower bearing. 
                My case in point: I dropped my rudder a couple of years ago with the intent of replacing the bearing because of the "slop" I could feel. After looking at the assembly I said "why and I doing this" I measured the ID of the delrin sleeve and the OD of the stainless ring on the rudder. Well 0.006-0.010" clearance for a journal bearing is ok with me. And there's very little potential for failure here so I put it back together. 

                The biggest issue is the distance between the top bearing and the lower bearing and just how "true" the rudder shaft is. In order to eliminate any play the shaft has to be true and the top and bottom bearings aligned. If one feels different resistance when you turn the wheel one way and then the other, chances are the shaft isn't true and/or the bearing are not aligned
                Replacing the bottom bearing is a pretty big (read expensive) job. If you want to do this for peace of mind feel free. If you want the best possible solution the rudder shaft needs to be turned up. This will take a pretty special piece of equipment and machine shop that can do it (read more expensive) then the lower bearing can be replaced and the top bearing replaced or at least floated in. If your biggest worry is the rudder falling out or breaking, fear not this is one of the strongest rudders I've ever seem. Now the weak link, there always is one. The only thing holding the rudder in the boat is the bond between the sleeve at the top and the fiberglass post and the single bolt going thru them. Personally I drilled thru and added another bolt. I also adjust my steering cable to be just tight enough and apply a light press on the packing gland. I do feel a slight a difference when I turn the wheel meaning my rudder shaft is not true but it spins very feely. I've had other drivers tell me "for a wheel steering the boat has great "feel"

                Sail Fast
                John




              • john power
                Thanks Not sure what you mean by teeth, the prop I am thinking of buying is a 9pitch by michigan wheel co Its advertised on the j30 site. Thanks for the rig
                Message 7 of 14 , May 13, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  Thanks

                  Not sure what you mean by teeth, the prop I am thinking of buying is a 9pitch by michigan wheel co
                  Its advertised on the j30 site.

                  Thanks for the rig tune numbers

                  JP
                  On May 13, 2011, at 7:43 AM, Roy Briscoe wrote:

                  I think the J30 numbers are way too tight, and my J30 buddy thinks the J30 numbers are too tight for the J30. We took 5th in the Nationals last year in Marblehead and had a bullet in one race, and he has won the Shields Nationals 3 times, so I trust his judgement.
                   
                  We played around with the rig last year and seem to settle in the vicinity of 760 for the lowers and 960 for the uppers for 10-14 knots of wind and adjusted from there depending on wind conditions. Though 200 lbs in either direction didn't seem to make a lot of difference.  We tie the uppers to the lowers at the turnbuckle with some line and don't use any rings through the turnbuckle to keep it from unscrewing. Makes it easier for adjusting.
                   
                  The idea being to get the mast to do what you want and not too to drive it through the bottom of the boat with high tension.
                   
                  Roy
                   


                  To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                  From: sailingmaster@...
                  Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 18:36:45 -0400
                  Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Rudders

                   
                  Thats what I figure is wrong with my rudder. The previous ownders paid a ton of money to the boat yard and had to have the job done a second time.  I think the bill got so high that they got frustrated and decided to live with it.
                  I didnt realize how poorly it was done until after I bought the boat.  I am hoping to drop the rudder next fall and have the shaft trued, but I dread the bill for this!!!!!  I also hope that the wet spot in my rudder might be the fairing problem that Hans mentioned....this gave me some hope.  

                  is there a stainless shaft inside this rudder or is it just one massive fiberglass construction?  I am trying to figure out how the water could be getting in to begin with.

                  I really love the boat so far.  The old owners did a ton of up grades.  This is just one big problem I did not foresee and it makes sailing the boat a lot less enjoyable.  There is NO feel to the wheel and it can be tough to keep the boat on here feet when its really shifty in big winds. 

                  Other questions I have are rig tuning ideas, the old owners thought the boat was overpowered do to an old deep main. I think the rig tune was more of the issue.  The mast butt was al the way and there is a ton of sag in the headstay
                  (the boat yard tuned the boat to last years settings), so i figure the boat had minimal rake and too deep a slot.  I have moved the mast step forward but wondering what people do for rig tension and  headstay  tension/sag.
                  The J30 numbers seem really tight, and given the age of the boat I dont know about cranking things up that tight.  I probably wont race the boat much this year, but have alwasy sailed fast one designs I like to get the most performance out of her that I can.

                  last question, for today anhow, does anyone know the correct size and pitch prop to match the boat and the 2gm?  This boat came with a three blade prop which i think is incorrectly matched to the boat. Again, the old owners used the diesel very little.  During the delivery, we had to fight some really strong head winds and seas. The diesel cant reach is max rpm of 32-3400 and if really pushed sends out black smoke. I am new to diesels but my studying tell me 
                  that this is and indication of the boat being overpropped. (All of the filters are clean, and I had the old diesel pumped out and the tank cleaned as well)

                  Thanks to all for your advice to this big boat newbie!

                  JP

                  On May 12, 2011, at 12:42 PM, John wrote:

                  Regarding the rudder bearing(s), please note that eliminating the play in the rudder is a little more complex than replacing the lower bearing. 
                  My case in point: I dropped my rudder a couple of years ago with the intent of replacing the bearing because of the "slop" I could feel. After looking at the assembly I said "why and I doing this" I measured the ID of the delrin sleeve and the OD of the stainless ring on the rudder. Well 0.006-0.010" clearance for a journal bearing is ok with me. And there's very little potential for failure here so I put it back together. 

                  The biggest issue is the distance between the top bearing and the lower bearing and just how "true" the rudder shaft is. In order to eliminate any play the shaft has to be true and the top and bottom bearings aligned. If one feels different resistance when you turn the wheel one way and then the other, chances are the shaft isn't true and/or the bearing are not aligned
                  Replacing the bottom bearing is a pretty big (read expensive) job. If you want to do this for peace of mind feel free. If you want the best possible solution the rudder shaft needs to be turned up. This will take a pretty special piece of equipment and machine shop that can do it (read more expensive) then the lower bearing can be replaced and the top bearing replaced or at least floated in. If your biggest worry is the rudder falling out or breaking, fear not this is one of the strongest rudders I've ever seem. Now the weak link, there always is one. The only thing holding the rudder in the boat is the bond between the sleeve at the top and the fiberglass post and the single bolt going thru them. Personally I drilled thru and added another bolt. I also adjust my steering cable to be just tight enough and apply a light press on the packing gland. I do feel a slight a difference when I turn the wheel meaning my rudder shaft is not true but it spins very feely. I've had other drivers tell me "for a wheel steering the boat has great "feel"

                  Sail Fast
                  John






                • hansandsharon@aim.com
                  The Gori folding prop is very good unit, it has teeth, intermesh so both blade folds as one, I have a 16 which I think is a big a 15 or 15 1/5 will be good,
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 13, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    The "Gori folding prop is very good unit, it has teeth, intermesh  so both blade folds as one,
                    I have a 16" which I think is a big a 15 or 15 1/5 will be good, but I do get good boat speed and it backs up very good.
                    The new J boats are using the "Flexofold" which is also a good unit, special for Racing
                    Good Sailing,
                    Hans,
                    J 28 "Last Dance"



                    ---- Original Message ----
                    From: john power <sailingmaster@...>
                    To: J28Sailors <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 6:12 pm
                    Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Rudders/Rig tune

                     
                    Thanks

                    Not sure what you mean by teeth, the prop I am thinking of buying is a 9pitch by michigan wheel co
                    Its advertised on the j30 site.

                    Thanks for the rig tune numbers

                    JP
                    On May 13, 2011, at 7:43 AM, Roy Briscoe wrote:

                    I think the J30 numbers are way too tight, and my J30 buddy thinks the J30 numbers are too tight for the J30. We took 5th in the Natio nals last year in Marblehead and had a bullet in one race, and he has won the Shields Nationals 3 times, so I trust his judgement.
                     
                    We played around with the rig last year and seem to settle in the vicinity of 760 for the lowers and 960 for the uppers for 10-14 knots of wind and adjusted from there depending on wind conditions. Though 200 lbs in either direction didn't seem to make a lot of difference.  We tie the uppers to the lowers at the turnbuckle with some line and don't use any rings through the turnbuckle to keep it from unscrewing. Makes it easier for adjusting.
                     
                    The idea being to get the mast to do what you want and not too to drive it through the bottom of the boat with high tension.
                     
                    Roy
                     

                    To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                    F rom: sailingmaster@...
                    Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 18:36:45 -0400
                    Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Rudders

                     
                    Thats what I figure is wrong with my rudder. The previous ownders paid a ton of money to the boat yard and had to have the job done a second time.  I think the bill got so high that they got frustrated and decided to live with it.
                    I didnt realize how poorly it was done until after I bought the boat.  I am hoping to drop the rudder next fall and have the shaft trued, but I dread the bill for this!!!!!  I also hope that the wet spot in my rudder might be the fairing problem that Hans mentioned....this gave me some hope.  

                    is there a stainless shaft inside this rudder or is it just one massive fiberglass construc tion?  I am trying to figure out how the water could be getting in to begin with.

                    I really love the boat so far.  The old owners did a ton of up grades.  This is just one big problem I did not foresee and it makes sailing the boat a lot less enjoyable.  There is NO feel to the wheel and it can be tough to keep the boat on here feet when its really shifty in big winds. 

                    Other questions I have are rig tuning ideas, the old owners thought the boat was overpowered do to an old deep main. I think the rig tune was more of the issue.  The mast butt was al the way and there is a ton of sag in the headstay
                    (the boat yard tuned the boat to last years settings), so i figure the boat had minimal rake and too deep a slot.  I have moved the mast step forward but wondering what people do for rig tension and  headstay  tension/sag.
                    The J30 numbers seem really tight, and given t he age of the boat I dont know about cranking things up that tight.  I probably wont race the boat much this year, but have alwasy sailed fast one designs I like to get the most performance out of her that I can.

                    last question, for today anhow, does anyone know the correct size and pitch prop to match the boat and the 2gm?  This boat came with a three blade prop which i think is incorrectly matched to the boat. Again, the old owners used the diesel very little.  During the delivery, we had to fight some really strong head winds and seas. The diesel cant reach is max rpm of 32-3400 and if really pushed sends out black smoke. I am new to diesels but my studying tell me 
                    that this is and indication of the boat being overpropped. (All of the filters are clean, and I had the old diesel pumped out and the tank cleaned as well)

                    Thanks to all for your advice to this big boat newbie!

                    < div>JP

                    On May 12, 2011, at 12:42 PM, John wrote:

                    Regarding the rudder bearing(s), please note that eliminating the play in the rudder is a little more complex than replacing the lower bearing. 
                    My case in point: I dropped my rudder a couple of years ago with the intent of replacing the bearing because of the "slop" I could feel. After looking at the assembly I said "why and I doing this" I mea sured the ID of the delrin sleeve and the OD of the stainless ring on the rudder. Well 0.006-0.010" clearance for a journal bearing is ok with me. And there's very little potential for failure here so I put it back together. 

                    The biggest issue is the distance between the top bearing and the lower bearing and just how "true" the rudder shaft is. In order to eliminate any play the shaft has to be true and the top and bottom bearings aligned. If one feels different resistance when you turn the wheel one way and then the other, chances are the shaft isn't true and/or the bearing are not aligned
                    Replacing the bottom bearing is a pretty big (read expensive) job. If you want to do this for peace of mind feel free. If you want the best possible solution the rudder shaft needs to be turned up. This will take a pretty special piece of equipment and machine shop that can do it (read more expensive) then the lower bearing can be replaced and the top bearing replaced or at least floated in. If your biggest worry is the rudder falling out or breaking, fear not this is one of the strongest rudders I've ever seem. Now the weak link, there always is one. The only thing holding the rudder in the boat is the bond between the sleeve at the top and the fiberglass post and the single bolt going thru them. Personally I drilled thru and added another bolt. I also adjust my steering cable to be just tight enough and apply a light press on the packing gland. I do feel a slight a difference when I turn the wheel meaning my rudder shaft is not true but it spins very feely. I've had other drivers tell me "for a wheel steering the boat has great "feel"

                    Sail Fast
                    John






                  • Roy Briscoe
                    Yeah, I would do some research on the prop sites, like Gori, Max prop, Martec, Flexofold. I wouldn t think you would want a 9 pitch, too drastic a change from
                    Message 9 of 14 , May 14, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Yeah, I would do some research on the prop sites, like Gori, Max prop, Martec, Flexofold. I wouldn't think you would want a 9 pitch, too drastic a change from 15. We do tend to max out around just over 3K and could probably use a slightly lower pitch. I'll take a look today to see what we have. I know it is a Martec folding with gears/teeth and the shape looks like it is "racing" prop as opposed to cruising prop, meaning less surface area, it came with boat. When we sail, we just put the tranmission in reverse and we are done. W/O the geared prop, you need to remove the steps so someone can turn the motor, get a flashlight, maybe get into the cockpit locker, remove the access panel and set the drive shaft, which is hopefully marked with some white or reflective paint, which is a 2 person job.
                       
                      We have to plan when we back up, it takes a bit for the boat to get moving, even from a dead stop. Maybe the cruising version would handle this better, or a newer version of what we have. 
                       
                      Roy
                       

                      To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                      From: hansandsharon@...
                      Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 20:06:00 -0400
                      Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Rudders/Rig tune

                       
                      The "Gori folding prop is very good unit, it has teeth, intermesh  so both blade folds as one,
                      I have a 16" which I think is a big a 15 or 15 1/5 will be good, but I do get good boat speed and it backs up very good.
                      The new J boats are using the "Flexofold" which is also a good unit, special for Racing
                      Good Sailing,
                      Hans,
                      J 28 "Last Dance"



                      ---- Original Message ----
                      From: john power <sailingmaster@...>
                      To: J28Sailors <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 6:12 pm
                      Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Rudders/Rig tune

                       
                      Thanks

                      Not sure what you mean by teeth, the prop I am thinking of buying is a 9pitch by michigan wheel co
                      Its advertised on the j30 site.

                      Thanks for the rig tune numbers

                      JP
                      On May 13, 2011, at 7:43 AM, Roy Briscoe wrote:

                      I think the J30 numbers are way too tight, and my J30 buddy thinks the J30 numbers are too tight for the J30. We took 5th in the Natio nals last year in Marblehead and had a bullet in one race, and he has won the Shields Nationals 3 times, so I trust his judgement.
                       
                      We played around with the rig last year and seem to settle in the vicinity of 760 for the lowers and 960 for the uppers for 10-14 knots of wind and adjusted from there depending on wind conditions. Though 200 lbs in either direction didn't seem to make a lot of difference.  We tie the uppers to the lowers at the turnbuckle with some line and don't use any rings through the turnbuckle to keep it from unscrewing. Makes it easier for adjusting.
                       
                      The idea being to get the mast to do what you want and not too to drive it through the bottom of the boat with high tension.
                       
                      Roy
                       

                      To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                      F rom: sailingmaster@...
                      Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 18:36:45 -0400
                      Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Rudders

                       
                      Thats what I figure is wrong with my rudder. The previous ownders paid a ton of money to the boat yard and had to have the job done a second time.  I think the bill got so high that they got frustrated and decided to live with it.
                      I didnt realize how poorly it was done until after I bought the boat.  I am hoping to drop the rudder next fall and have the shaft trued, but I dread the bill for this!!!!!  I also hope that the wet spot in my rudder might be the fairing problem that Hans mentioned....this gave me some hope.  

                      is there a stainless shaft inside this rudder or is it just one massive fiberglass construc tion?  I am trying to figure out how the water could be getting in to begin with.

                      I really love the boat so far.  The old owners did a ton of up grades.  This is just one big problem I did not foresee and it makes sailing the boat a lot less enjoyable.  There is NO feel to the wheel and it can be tough to keep the boat on here feet when its really shifty in big winds. 

                      Other questions I have are rig tuning ideas, the old owners thought the boat was overpowered do to an old deep main. I think the rig tune was more of the issue.  The mast butt was al the way and there is a ton of sag in the headstay
                      (the boat yard tuned the boat to last years settings), so i figure the boat had minimal rake and too deep a slot.  I have moved the mast step forward but wondering what people do for rig tension and  headstay  tension/sag.
                      The J30 numbers seem really tight, and given t he age of the boat I dont know about cranking things up that tight.  I probably wont race the boat much this year, but have alwasy sailed fast one designs I like to get the most performance out of her that I can.

                      last question, for today anhow, does anyone know the correct size and pitch prop to match the boat and the 2gm?  This boat came with a three blade prop which i think is incorrectly matched to the boat. Again, the old owners used the diesel very little.  During the delivery, we had to fight some really strong head winds and seas. The diesel cant reach is max rpm of 32-3400 and if really pushed sends out black smoke. I am new to diesels but my studying tell me 
                      that this is and indication of the boat being overpropped. (All of the filters are clean, and I had the old diesel pumped out and the tank cleaned as well)

                      Thanks to all for your advice to this big boat newbie!

                      < div>JP

                      On May 12, 2011, at 12:42 PM, John wrote:

                      Regarding the rudder bearing(s), please note that eliminating the play in the rudder is a little more complex than replacing the lower bearing. 
                      My case in point: I dropped my rudder a couple of years ago with the intent of replacing the bearing because of the "slop" I could feel. After looking at the assembly I said "why and I doing this" I mea sured the ID of the delrin sleeve and the OD of the stainless ring on the rudder. Well 0.006-0.010" clearance for a journal bearing is ok with me. And there's very little potential for failure here so I put it back together. 

                      The biggest issue is the distance between the top bearing and the lower bearing and just how "true" the rudder shaft is. In order to eliminate any play the shaft has to be true and the top and bottom bearings aligned. If one feels different resistance when you turn the wheel one way and then the other, chances are the shaft isn't true and/or the bearing are not aligned
                      Replacing the bottom bearing is a pretty big (read expensive) job. If you want to do this for peace of mind feel free. If you want the best possible solution the rudder shaft needs to be turned up. This will take a pretty special piece of equipment and machine shop that can do it (read more expensive) then the lower bearing can be replaced and the top bearing replaced or at least floated in. If your biggest worry is the rudder falling out or breaking, fear not this is one of the strongest rudders I've ever seem. Now the weak link, there always is one. The only thing holding the rudder in the boat is the bond between the sleeve at the top and the fiberglass post and the single bolt going thru them. Personally I drilled thru and added another bolt. I also adjust my steering cable to be just tight enough and apply a light press on the packing gland. I do feel a slight a difference when I turn the wheel meaning my rudder shaft is not true but it spins very feely. I've had other drivers tell me "for a wheel steering the boat has great "feel"

                      Sail Fast
                      John







                    • Marc
                      I replaced my 16 dia. X 14 pitch Martec with a 16 X 12 ($839) because of the same issues. Gary at Martec was very helpful. My boat now will reach full engine
                      Message 10 of 14 , May 14, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I replaced my 16 dia. X 14 pitch Martec with a 16 X 12 ($839) because of the same issues. Gary at Martec was very helpful. My boat now will reach full engine rpm when the bottom is clean. The bow starts rising out of the water and the exaust is under water an inch or two and boat speed is about 7.25 knots. It is much better than it was but I feel like maybe I could have gone one pitch size smaller yet(16X10) because the engine is really working hard as the boat is trying to get on a plane.
                        When the boat was out of the water I checked the location of the screw heads on the shaft coupling and found that they lined up with the prop so I just rotate the shaft to align it. If it is right and you turn it 90deg you can hear the blade drop, if your not going too fast. So when you hear it drop turn it 90 and your good.
                        Marc
                        S/V Thumper
                        Seattle WA

                        --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Yeah, I would do some research on the prop sites, like Gori, Max prop, Martec, Flexofold. I wouldn't think you would want a 9 pitch, too drastic a change from 15. We do tend to max out around just over 3K and could probably use a slightly lower pitch. I'll take a look today to see what we have. I know it is a Martec folding with gears/teeth and the shape looks like it is "racing" prop as opposed to cruising prop, meaning less surface area, it came with boat. When we sail, we just put the tranmission in reverse and we are done. W/O the geared prop, you need to remove the steps so someone can turn the motor, get a flashlight, maybe get into the cockpit locker, remove the access panel and set the drive shaft, which is hopefully marked with some white or reflective paint, which is a 2 person job.
                        >
                        > We have to plan when we back up, it takes a bit for the boat to get moving, even from a dead stop. Maybe the cruising version would handle this better, or a newer version of what we have.
                        >
                        > Roy
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                        > From: hansandsharon@...
                        > Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 20:06:00 -0400
                        > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Rudders/Rig tune
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > The "Gori folding prop is very good unit, it has teeth, intermesh so both blade folds as one,
                        > I have a 16" which I think is a big a 15 or 15 1/5 will be good, but I do get good boat speed and it backs up very good.
                        > The new J boats are using the "Flexofold" which is also a good unit, special for Racing
                        > Good Sailing,
                        > Hans,
                        > J 28 "Last Dance"
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ---- Original Message ----
                        > From: john power <sailingmaster@...>
                        > To: J28Sailors <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 6:12 pm
                        > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Rudders/Rig tune
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Thanks
                        >
                        >
                        > Not sure what you mean by teeth, the prop I am thinking of buying is a 9pitch by michigan wheel co
                        > Its advertised on the j30 site.
                        >
                        >
                        > Thanks for the rig tune numbers
                        >
                        >
                        > JP
                        >
                        >
                        > On May 13, 2011, at 7:43 AM, Roy Briscoe wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I think the J30 numbers are way too tight, and my J30 buddy thinks the J30 numbers are too tight for the J30. We took 5th in the Natio nals last year in Marblehead and had a bullet in one race, and he has won the Shields Nationals 3 times, so I trust his judgement.
                        >
                        > We played around with the rig last year and seem to settle in the vicinity of 760 for the lowers and 960 for the uppers for 10-14 knots of wind and adjusted from there depending on wind conditions. Though 200 lbs in either direction didn't seem to make a lot of difference. We tie the uppers to the lowers at the turnbuckle with some line and don't use any rings through the turnbuckle to keep it from unscrewing. Makes it easier for adjusting.
                        >
                        > The idea being to get the mast to do what you want and not too to drive it through the bottom of the boat with high tension.
                        >
                        > Roy
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                        > F rom: sailingmaster@...
                        > Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 18:36:45 -0400
                        > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Rudders
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Thats what I figure is wrong with my rudder. The previous ownders paid a ton of money to the boat yard and had to have the job done a second time. I think the bill got so high that they got frustrated and decided to live with it.
                        > I didnt realize how poorly it was done until after I bought the boat. I am hoping to drop the rudder next fall and have the shaft trued, but I dread the bill for this!!!!! I also hope that the wet spot in my rudder might be the fairing problem that Hans mentioned....this gave me some hope.
                        >
                        >
                        > is there a stainless shaft inside this rudder or is it just one massive fiberglass construc tion? I am trying to figure out how the water could be getting in to begin with.
                        >
                        >
                        > I really love the boat so far. The old owners did a ton of up grades. This is just one big problem I did not foresee and it makes sailing the boat a lot less enjoyable. There is NO feel to the wheel and it can be tough to keep the boat on here feet when its really shifty in big winds.
                        >
                        >
                        > Other questions I have are rig tuning ideas, the old owners thought the boat was overpowered do to an old deep main. I think the rig tune was more of the issue. The mast butt was al the way and there is a ton of sag in the headstay
                        > (the boat yard tuned the boat to last years settings), so i figure the boat had minimal rake and too deep a slot. I have moved the mast step forward but wondering what people do for rig tension and headstay tension/sag.
                        > The J30 numbers seem really tight, and given t he age of the boat I dont know about cranking things up that tight. I probably wont race the boat much this year, but have alwasy sailed fast one designs I like to get the most performance out of her that I can.
                        >
                        >
                        > last question, for today anhow, does anyone know the correct size and pitch prop to match the boat and the 2gm? This boat came with a three blade prop which i think is incorrectly matched to the boat. Again, the old owners used the diesel very little. During the delivery, we had to fight some really strong head winds and seas. The diesel cant reach is max rpm of 32-3400 and if really pushed sends out black smoke. I am new to diesels but my studying tell me
                        > that this is and indication of the boat being overpropped. (All of the filters are clean, and I had the old diesel pumped out and the tank cleaned as well)
                        >
                        >
                        > Thanks to all for your advice to this big boat newbie!
                        >
                        > < div>JP
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > On May 12, 2011, at 12:42 PM, John wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Regarding the rudder bearing(s), please note that eliminating the play in the rudder is a little more complex than replacing the lower bearing.
                        > My case in point: I dropped my rudder a couple of years ago with the intent of replacing the bearing because of the "slop" I could feel. After looking at the assembly I said "why and I doing this" I mea sured the ID of the delrin sleeve and the OD of the stainless ring on the rudder. Well 0.006-0.010" clearance for a journal bearing is ok with me. And there's very little potential for failure here so I put it back together.
                        >
                        > The biggest issue is the distance between the top bearing and the lower bearing and just how "true" the rudder shaft is. In order to eliminate any play the shaft has to be true and the top and bottom bearings aligned. If one feels different resistance when you turn the wheel one way and then the other, chances are the shaft isn't true and/or the bearing are not aligned
                        > Replacing the bottom bearing is a pretty big (read expensive) job. If you want to do this for peace of mind feel free. If you want the best possible solution the rudder shaft needs to be turned up. This will take a pretty special piece of equipment and machine shop that can do it (read more expensive) then the lower bearing can be replaced and the top bearing replaced or at least floated in. If your biggest worry is the rudder falling out or breaking, fear not this is one of the strongest rudders I've ever seem. Now the weak link, there always is one. The only thing holding the rudder in the boat is the bond between the sleeve at the top and the fiberglass post and the single bolt going thru them. Personally I drilled thru and added another bolt. I also adjust my steering cable to be just tight enough and apply a light press on the packing gland. I do feel a slight a difference when I turn the wheel meaning my rudder shaft is not true but it spins very feely. I've had other drivers tell me "for a wheel steering the boat has great "feel"
                        >
                        > Sail Fast
                        > John
                        >
                      • John
                        BTW, in regards to the rudder falling out because of 1 bolt holding it in,,, Well I wrong. I completely forgot about the quandrent and what fun I had getting
                        Message 11 of 14 , May 15, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          BTW, in regards to the rudder falling out because of 1 bolt holding it in,,, Well I wrong. I completely forgot about the quandrent and what fun I had getting it off.

                          I reality the only way the rudder comes out of the boat, unplannedis if the bond between the top sleeve and the rudder post breaks,and it the thru bolt breaks and if the quandrent is loose enough to slide on the shaft. Thats a lot of if's.

                          Sorry for the misinformation.

                          John
                          WHALAYED #11

                          --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, john power <sailingmaster@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Wow thanks for the detailed answers!
                          >
                          > Having sailed high performance dinghys most of my life, I am going to
                          > pony up the cash and get this problem fixed. So I do appreciate the
                          > advice. As I mentioned the previous owners were great guys and did a
                          > lot to improve my boat. I dont think they had any previous experience
                          > with wheel steering so for their tastes the job might have been fine,
                          > or they decided to put the brakes on the boat yards billing office. I
                          > guess by the time the whole job was done it was over 3500! I am
                          > hoping the new bearing they put in is still okay and that I just need
                          > to get the shaft trued/aligned. This is my first boat with a wheel
                          > and I have a lot to get used to as well....
                          >
                          > As for the water in the rudder, I have heard lots of different advice
                          > on this issue. Some are of the opinion that since there is no shaft
                          > in the rudder, that it is less of a problem than if there were SS
                          > inside to corrode.
                          > I am debating bringing it home, drying it in my basement, re glassing
                          > and sealing with barrier coat OR Just re glassing the small damaged
                          > area and drilling a drain hole each fall. I may start there and see
                          > how bad it is, but I would like to avoid paying the boat yard to drop
                          > the rudder twice. You mentioned duct tape? Where do you put that?
                          >
                          > Also pointing. I havent sailed against anyone yet to compare, but I
                          > did move my mast step to the max forward position. I have an old
                          > roller furling 135 and the boat doesnt seem to point as well with that
                          > as it does with my 150. The 150 was clearly made for racing (kevlar
                          > tri radial) and it tacks to the deck. My biggest concern is the huge
                          > amount of sag in the headstay. I will see how it is when I tighten the
                          > uppers. I may have to take some length out of the headstay as
                          > well...it sags off about 15 inches. Again, having never had roller
                          > furling I dont know how much is too much. I know that on the J24s and
                          > solings I used torace we used a TON of headstay sag, esp in lighter
                          > winds.
                          >
                          > If anyone out there knows the size and pitch of the folding prop that
                          > would be appreciated. There is a really good one for sale locally. Its
                          > almost new and its 300 bucks (as compared to the 1000 price tag I have
                          > seen) My three blade is great in reverse but I am convinced that when
                          > the engine is running at higher rpms its overloaded. OTH, maybe I
                          > should live with this prop and just run at lower rpms? I think its
                          > nice to know you have that extra power when you need it, but dont know
                          > how the folding props react...Again as a racing sailor, the idea of
                          > dragging the fixed prop thru the water really bothers my from a
                          > pyschological point of view!
                          >
                          > Thank you all again for the information and assistance
                          >
                          > JP
                          >
                          >
                          > On May 12, 2011, at 8:20 PM, John wrote:
                          >
                          > > JP, To answer your questions. I couldn't find any evidence that the
                          > > rudder is anything other than a big hunk of glass, no SS shaft. When
                          > > I pulled my rubber I drilled a half dozen holes on the bottom and
                          > > drained what water in there out. My guess, not more than three oz's
                          > > and I did this on the top and bottom. How the water gets in? Agian
                          > > my guess, it gets in from the top draining down the inside of the
                          > > shaft from either condensation or leaks from the round hatch cover.
                          > > I now put a piece of duct duck on the top. Piece of mind more than
                          > > anything else.
                          > >
                          > > Rig tune; I use the J30 numbers at about 75% I can count on one hand
                          > > how many times I've been over powered with a full main and a 135%
                          > > genny, my primary sail combination. When it's blowing you do need to
                          > > pay attention to the main sheet as with any boat. I sail pretty
                          > > agressively whether racing or not.
                          > >
                          > > This year I'm moving the mast step forward. I've never been real
                          > > happy with my pointing. I hope that helps.
                          > >
                          > > Regarding your rudder. At this point you may have a compound problem
                          > > of the bearing out of line and the shaft not true. That would really
                          > > suck but if your going to fix it make sure the yard knows what
                          > > the're doing and has the ability. To true the shaft you'll have to
                          > > find a machine shop with a lathe that can swing 24" dia or so.
                          > >
                          > > I can't comment on the prop other than the original 2 blade folding
                          > > works pretty good but reverse is much more of a suggestion than
                          > > command.
                          > >
                          > > John
                          > >
                          > > --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, john power <sailingmaster@>
                          > > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Thats what I figure is wrong with my rudder. The previous ownders
                          > > paid
                          > > > a ton of money to the boat yard and had to have the job done a
                          > > second
                          > > > time. I think the bill got so high that they got frustrated and
                          > > > decided to live with it.
                          > > > I didnt realize how poorly it was done until after I bought the
                          > > boat.
                          > > > I am hoping to drop the rudder next fall and have the shaft trued,
                          > > but
                          > > > I dread the bill for this!!!!! I also hope that the wet spot in my
                          > > > rudder might be the fairing problem that Hans mentioned....this gave
                          > > > me some hope.
                          > > >
                          > > > is there a stainless shaft inside this rudder or is it just one
                          > > > massive fiberglass construction? I am trying to figure out how the
                          > > > water could be getting in to begin with.
                          > > >
                          > > > I really love the boat so far. The old owners did a ton of up
                          > > > grades. This is just one big problem I did not foresee and it makes
                          > > > sailing the boat a lot less enjoyable. There is NO feel to the wheel
                          > > > and it can be tough to keep the boat on here feet when its really
                          > > > shifty in big winds.
                          > > >
                          > > > Other questions I have are rig tuning ideas, the old owners thought
                          > > > the boat was overpowered do to an old deep main. I think the rig
                          > > tune
                          > > > was more of the issue. The mast butt was al the way and there is a
                          > > > ton of sag in the headstay
                          > > > (the boat yard tuned the boat to last years settings), so i figure
                          > > the
                          > > > boat had minimal rake and too deep a slot. I have moved the mast
                          > > step
                          > > > forward but wondering what people do for rig tension and headstay
                          > > > tension/sag.
                          > > > The J30 numbers seem really tight, and given the age of the boat I
                          > > > dont know about cranking things up that tight. I probably wont race
                          > > > the boat much this year, but have alwasy sailed fast one designs I
                          > > > like to get the most performance out of her that I can.
                          > > >
                          > > > last question, for today anhow, does anyone know the correct size
                          > > and
                          > > > pitch prop to match the boat and the 2gm? This boat came with a
                          > > three
                          > > > blade prop which i think is incorrectly matched to the boat. Again,
                          > > > the old owners used the diesel very little. During the delivery, we
                          > > > had to fight some really strong head winds and seas. The diesel cant
                          > > > reach is max rpm of 32-3400 and if really pushed sends out black
                          > > > smoke. I am new to diesels but my studying tell me
                          > > > that this is and indication of the boat being overpropped. (All of
                          > > the
                          > > > filters are clean, and I had the old diesel pumped out and the tank
                          > > > cleaned as well)
                          > > >
                          > > > Thanks to all for your advice to this big boat newbie!
                          > > >
                          > > > JP
                          > > >
                          > > > On May 12, 2011, at 12:42 PM, John wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > > Regarding the rudder bearing(s), please note that eliminating the
                          > > > > play in the rudder is a little more complex than replacing the
                          > > lower
                          > > > > bearing.
                          > > > > My case in point: I dropped my rudder a couple of years ago with
                          > > the
                          > > > > intent of replacing the bearing because of the "slop" I could
                          > > feel.
                          > > > > After looking at the assembly I said "why and I doing this" I
                          > > > > measured the ID of the delrin sleeve and the OD of the stainless
                          > > > > ring on the rudder. Well 0.006-0.010" clearance for a journal
                          > > > > bearing is ok with me. And there's very little potential for
                          > > failure
                          > > > > here so I put it back together.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > The biggest issue is the distance between the top bearing and the
                          > > > > lower bearing and just how "true" the rudder shaft is. In order to
                          > > > > eliminate any play the shaft has to be true and the top and bottom
                          > > > > bearings aligned. If one feels different resistance when you turn
                          > > > > the wheel one way and then the other, chances are the shaft isn't
                          > > > > true and/or the bearing are not aligned
                          > > > > Replacing the bottom bearing is a pretty big (read expensive) job.
                          > > > > If you want to do this for peace of mind feel free. If you want
                          > > the
                          > > > > best possible solution the rudder shaft needs to be turned up.
                          > > This
                          > > > > will take a pretty special piece of equipment and machine shop
                          > > that
                          > > > > can do it (read more expensive) then the lower bearing can be
                          > > > > replaced and the top bearing replaced or at least floated in. If
                          > > > > your biggest worry is the rudder falling out or breaking, fear not
                          > > > > this is one of the strongest rudders I've ever seem. Now the weak
                          > > > > link, there always is one. The only thing holding the rudder in
                          > > the
                          > > > > boat is the bond between the sleeve at the top and the fiberglass
                          > > > > post and the single bolt going thru them. Personally I drilled
                          > > thru
                          > > > > and added another bolt. I also adjust my steering cable to be just
                          > > > > tight enough and apply a light press on the packing gland. I do
                          > > feel
                          > > > > a slight a difference when I turn the wheel meaning my rudder
                          > > shaft
                          > > > > is not true but it spins very feely. I've had other drivers tell
                          > > me
                          > > > > "for a wheel steering the boat has great "feel"
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Sail Fast
                          > > > > John
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • Roy Briscoe
                          I looked at our prop yesterday and it is a Varifold 15x10, so maybe a 9 pitch isn t all that drastic a reduction. I remembered the 15 but I guess that wasn t
                          Message 12 of 14 , May 15, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I looked at our prop yesterday and it is a Varifold 15x10, so maybe a 9 pitch isn't all that drastic a reduction. I remembered the 15 but I guess that wasn't the pitch but the size. I think the fastest GPS speed we have seen out in the ocean off of Maine is 6.5, which I believe is the hull speed of the boat but we are not maxed out on the rpm, we are 200-300 short. 
                             
                            Roy
                             

                            To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                            From: j28_59@...
                            Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 01:57:54 +0000
                            Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Props

                             


                            I replaced my 16 dia. X 14 pitch Martec with a 16 X 12 ($839) because of the same issues. Gary at Martec was very helpful. My boat now will reach full engine rpm when the bottom is clean. The bow starts rising out of the water and the exaust is under water an inch or two and boat speed is about 7.25 knots. It is much better than it was but I feel like maybe I could have gone one pitch size smaller yet(16X10) because the engine is really working hard as the boat is trying to get on a plane.
                            When the boat was out of the water I checked the location of the screw heads on the shaft coupling and found that they lined up with the prop so I just rotate the shaft to align it. If it is right and you turn it 90deg you can hear the blade drop, if your not going too fast. So when you hear it drop turn it 90 and your good.
                            Marc
                            S/V Thumper
                            Seattle WA

                            --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Yeah, I would do some research on the prop sites, like Gori, Max prop, Martec, Flexofold. I wouldn't think you would want a 9 pitch, too drastic a change from 15. We do tend to max out around just over 3K and could probably use a slightly lower pitch. I'll take a look today to see what we have. I know it is a Martec folding with gears/teeth and the shape looks like it is "racing" prop as opposed to cruising prop, meaning less surface area, it came with boat. When we sail, we just put the tranmission in reverse and we are done. W/O the geared prop, you need to remove the steps so someone can turn the motor, get a flashlight, maybe get into the cockpit locker, remove the access panel and set the drive shaft, which is hopefully marked with some white or reflective paint, which is a 2 person job.
                            >
                            > We have to plan when we back up, it takes a bit for the boat to get moving, even from a dead stop. Maybe the cruising version would handle this better, or a newer version of what we have.
                            >
                            > Roy
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                            > From: hansandsharon@...
                            > Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 20:06:00 -0400
                            > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Rudders/Rig tune
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > The "Gori folding prop is very good unit, it has teeth, intermesh so both blade folds as one,
                            > I have a 16" which I think is a big a 15 or 15 1/5 will be good, but I do get good boat speed and it backs up very good.
                            > The new J boats are using the "Flexofold" which is also a good unit, special for Racing
                            > Good Sailing,
                            > Hans,
                            > J 28 "Last Dance"
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ---- Original Message ----
                            > From: john power <sailingmaster@...>
                            > To: J28Sailors <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 6:12 pm
                            > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Rudders/Rig tune
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Thanks
                            >
                            >
                            > Not sure what you mean by teeth, the prop I am thinking of buying is a 9pitch by michigan wheel co
                            > Its advertised on the j30 site.
                            >
                            >
                            > Thanks for the rig tune numbers
                            >
                            >
                            > JP
                            >
                            >
                            > On May 13, 2011, at 7:43 AM, Roy Briscoe wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I think the J30 numbers are way too tight, and my J30 buddy thinks the J30 numbers are too tight for the J30. We took 5th in the Natio nals last year in Marblehead and had a bullet in one race, and he has won the Shields Nationals 3 times, so I trust his judgement.
                            >
                            > We played around with the rig last year and seem to settle in the vicinity of 760 for the lowers and 960 for the uppers for 10-14 knots of wind and adjusted from there depending on wind conditions. Though 200 lbs in either direction didn't seem to make a lot of difference. We tie the uppers to the lowers at the turnbuckle with some line and don't use any rings through the turnbuckle to keep it from unscrewing. Makes it easier for adjusting.
                            >
                            > The idea being to get the mast to do what you want and not too to drive it through the bottom of the boat with high tension.
                            >
                            > Roy
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                            > F rom: sailingmaster@...
                            > Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 18:36:45 -0400
                            > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Rudders
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Thats what I figure is wrong with my rudder. The previous ownders paid a ton of money to the boat yard and had to have the job done a second time. I think the bill got so high that they got frustrated and decided to live with it.
                            > I didnt realize how poorly it was done until after I bought the boat. I am hoping to drop the rudder next fall and have the shaft trued, but I dread the bill for this!!!!! I also hope that the wet spot in my rudder might be the fairing problem that Hans mentioned....this gave me some hope.
                            >
                            >
                            > is there a stainless shaft inside this rudder or is it just one massive fiberglass construc tion? I am trying to figure out how the water could be getting in to begin with.
                            >
                            >
                            > I really love the boat so far. The old owners did a ton of up grades. This is just one big problem I did not foresee and it makes sailing the boat a lot less enjoyable. There is NO feel to the wheel and it can be tough to keep the boat on here feet when its really shifty in big winds.
                            >
                            >
                            > Other questions I have are rig tuning ideas, the old owners thought the boat was overpowered do to an old deep main. I think the rig tune was more of the issue. The mast butt was al the way and there is a ton of sag in the headstay
                            > (the boat yard tuned the boat to last years settings), so i figure the boat had minimal rake and too deep a slot. I have moved the mast step forward but wondering what people do for rig tension and headstay tension/sag.
                            > The J30 numbers seem really tight, and given t he age of the boat I dont know about cranking things up that tight. I probably wont race the boat much this year, but have alwasy sailed fast one designs I like to get the most performance out of her that I can.
                            >
                            >
                            > last question, for today anhow, does anyone know the correct size and pitch prop to match the boat and the 2gm? This boat came with a three blade prop which i think is incorrectly matched to the boat. Again, the old owners used the diesel very little. During the delivery, we had to fight some really strong head winds and seas. The diesel cant reach is max rpm of 32-3400 and if really pushed sends out black smoke. I am new to diesels but my studying tell me
                            > that this is and indication of the boat being overpropped. (All of the filters are clean, and I had the old diesel pumped out and the tank cleaned as well)
                            >
                            >
                            > Thanks to all for your advice to this big boat newbie!
                            >
                            > < div>JP
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > On May 12, 2011, at 12:42 PM, John wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Regarding the rudder bearing(s), please note that eliminating the play in the rudder is a little more complex than replacing the lower bearing.
                            > My case in point: I dropped my rudder a couple of years ago with the intent of replacing the bearing because of the "slop" I could feel. After looking at the assembly I said "why and I doing this" I mea sured the ID of the delrin sleeve and the OD of the stainless ring on the rudder. Well 0.006-0.010" clearance for a journal bearing is ok with me. And there's very little potential for failure here so I put it back together.
                            >
                            > The biggest issue is the distance between the top bearing and the lower bearing and just how "true" the rudder shaft is. In order to eliminate any play the shaft has to be true and the top and bottom bearings aligned. If one feels different resistance when you turn the wheel one way and then the other, chances are the shaft isn't true and/or the bearing are not aligned
                            > Replacing the bottom bearing is a pretty big (read expensive) job. If you want to do this for peace of mind feel free. If you want the best possible solution the rudder shaft needs to be turned up. This will take a pretty special piece of equipment and machine shop that can do it (read more expensive) then the lower bearing can be replaced and the top bearing replaced or at least floated in. If your biggest worry is the rudder falling out or breaking, fear not this is one of the strongest rudders I've ever seem. Now the weak link, there always is one. The only thing holding the rudder in the boat is the bond between the sleeve at the top and the fiberglass post and the single bolt going thru them. Personally I drilled thru and added another bolt. I also adjust my steering cable to be just tight enough and apply a light press on the packing gland. I do feel a slight a difference when I turn the wheel meaning my rudder shaft is not true but it spins very feely. I've had other drivers tell me "for a wheel steering the boat has great "feel"
                            >
                            > Sail Fast
                            > John
                            >


                          • hansandsharon@aim.com
                            HI All, My Gori is a 16x 11, It gives me 6.1 @ 2500 rev, 6.7 @ 3000, I do not go over 2500 very often, as it can smoke, the Yanmar people tell s me to blow
                            Message 13 of 14 , May 15, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              HI All,
                              My Gori is a 16x 11,
                              It gives me 6.1 @ 2500 rev,
                                               6.7 @ 3000,
                              I do not go over 2500 very often, as it can smoke, the Yanmar people
                              tell's me to blow smoke once in a while but not often,
                              2500 is a very good cruising speed and the Engine sounds good at that speed,
                              and getting 6 or 6.5 with new paint is good for the Engine and boat speed.
                              I don't think you can "Plane" under Power, down wind with a Spinnaker and a good Wave,
                              then it is possible.
                              Good Sailing
                              J 28
                              "Last Dance"
                               
                               



                              ---- Original Message ----
                              From: Roy Briscoe <roysail@...>
                              To: j28sailors <j28sailors@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Sun, May 15, 2011 8:25 am
                              Subject: RE: [J28Sailors] Re: Props

                               
                              I looked at our prop yesterday and it is a Varifold 15x10, so maybe a 9 pitch isn't all that drastic a reduction. I remembered the 15 but I guess that wasn't the pitch but the size. I think the fastest GPS speed we have seen out in the ocean off of Maine is 6.5, which I believe is the hull speed of the boat but we are not maxed out on the rpm, we are 200-300 short. 
                               
                              Roy
                               

                              To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                              From: j28_59@...
                              Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 01:57:54 +0000
                              Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Props

                               


                              I replaced my 16 dia. X 14 pitch Martec with a 16 X 12 ($839) because of the same issues. Gary at Martec was very helpful. My boat now will reach full engine rpm when the bottom is clean. The bow starts rising out of the water and the exaust is under water an inch or two and boat speed is about 7.25 knots. It is much better than it was but I feel like maybe I could have gone one pitch size smaller yet(16X10) because the engine is really working hard as the boat is trying to get on a plane.
                              When the boat was out of the water I checked the location of the screw heads on the shaft coupling and found that they lined up with the prop so I just rotate the shaft to align it. If it is right and you turn it 90deg you can hear the blade drop, if your not going too fast. So when you hear it drop turn it 90 and your good.
                              Marc
                              S/V Thumper
                              Seattle WA

                              --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@...&g t; wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Yeah, I would do some research on the prop sites, like Gori, Max prop, Martec, Flexofold. I wouldn't think you would want a 9 pitch, too drastic a change from 15. We do tend to max out around just over 3K and could probably use a slightly lower pitch. I'll take a look today to see what we have. I know it is a Martec folding with gears/teeth and the shape looks like it is "racing" prop as opposed to cruising prop, meaning less surface area, it came with boat. When we sail, we just put the tranmission in reverse and we are done. W/O the geared prop, you need to remove the steps so someone can turn the motor, get a flashlight, maybe get into the cockpit locker, remove the access panel and set the drive shaft, which is hopefully marked with some white or reflective paint, which is a 2 person job.
                              >
                              > We have to plan when we back up, it takes a bit for the boat to get moving, even from a dead stop. Maybe the cruising version would h andle this better, or a newer version of what we have.
                              >
                              > Roy
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                              > From: hansandsharon@...
                              > Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 20:06:00 -0400
                              > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Rudders/Rig tune
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > The "Gori folding prop is very good unit, it has teeth, intermesh so both blade folds as one,
                              > I have a 16" which I think is a big a 15 or 15 1/5 will be good, but I do get good boat speed and it backs up very good.
                              > The new J boats are using the "Flexofold" which is also a good unit, special for Racing
                              > Good Sailing,
                              > Hans,
                              > J 28 "Last Dance"
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ---- Original Message ----
                              > From: john power <sailingmaster@...>
                              > To: J28Sailors <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 6:12 pm
                              > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Rudders/Rig tune
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Thanks
                              >
                              >
                              > Not sure what you mean by teeth, the prop I am thinking of buying is a 9pitch by michigan wheel co
                              > Its advertised on the j30 site.
                              >
                              >
                              > Thanks for the rig tune numbers
                              >
                              >
                              > JP
                              >
                              >
                              > On May 13, 2011, at 7:43 AM, Roy Briscoe wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > I think the J30 numbers are way too tight, and my J30 buddy thinks the J30 numbers are too tight for the J30. We took 5th in the Natio nals last year in Marblehead and had a bullet in one race, and he has won the Shields Nationals 3 times, so I trust his judgement.
                              >
                              > We played around with the rig last year and seem to settle in the vicinity of 760 for the lowers and 960 for the uppers for 10-1 4 knots of wind and adjusted from there depending on wind conditions. Though 200 lbs in either direction didn't seem to make a lot of difference. We tie the uppers to the lowers at the turnbuckle with some line and don't use any rings through the turnbuckle to keep it from unscrewing. Makes it easier for adjusting.
                              >
                              > The idea being to get the mast to do what you want and not too to drive it through the bottom of the boat with high tension.
                              >
                              > Roy
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                              > F rom: sailingmaster@...
                              > Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 18:36:45 -0400
                              > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Rudders
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Thats what I figure is wrong with my rudder. The previous ownders paid a ton of money to the boat yard and had to have the job done a second time. I think the bill got so high that they got frustrated and decided to live with it.
                              > I didnt realize how poorly it was done until after I bought the boat. I am hoping to drop the rudder next fall and have the shaft trued, but I dread the bill for this!!!!! I also hope that the wet spot in my rudder might be the fairing problem that Hans mentioned....this gave me some hope.
                              >
                              >
                              > is there a stainless shaft inside this rudder or is it just one massive fiberglass construc tion? I am trying to figure out how the water could be getting in to begin with.
                              >
                              >
                              > I really love the boat so far. The old owners did a ton of up grades. This is just one big problem I did not foresee and it makes sailing the boat a lot less enjoyable. There is NO feel to the wheel and it can be tough to keep the boat on here feet when its really shifty in big winds.
                              >
                              >
                              > Other questions I have are rig tuning ideas, the old owners thought the boat was overpowered do to an old deep main. I think the rig tune was more of the issue. The mast butt was al the way and there is a ton of sag in the headstay
                              > (the boat yard tuned the boat to last years settings), so i figure the boat had minimal rake and too deep a slot. I have moved the mast step forward but wondering what people do for rig tension and headstay tension/sag.
                              > The J30 numbers seem really tight, and given t he age of the boat I dont know about cranking things up that tight. I probably wont race the boat much this year, but have alwasy sailed fast one designs I like to get the most performance out of her that I can.
                              >
                              >
                              > last question, for today anhow, does anyone know the correct size and pitch prop to match the boat and the 2gm? This boat came with a three blade prop which i think is incorrectly matched to the boat. Again, the old owners used the diesel very little. During the delivery, we had to fight some really strong head winds and seas. The diesel cant reach is max rpm of 32-3400 and if really pushed sends out black smoke. I am new to diesels but my studying tell me
                              > that this is and indication of the boat being overpropped. (All of the filters are clean, and I had the old diesel pumped out and the tank cleaned as well)
                              >
                              >
                              > Thanks to all for your advice to this big boat newbie!
                              >
                              > < div>JP
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > On May 12, 2011, at 12:42 PM, John wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Regarding the rudder bearing(s), please note that eliminating the play in the rudder is a little more complex than replacing the lower bearing.
                              > My case in point: I dropped my rudder a couple of years ago with the intent of replacing the bearing because of the "slop" I could feel. After looking at the assembly I said "why and I doing this" I mea sured the ID of the delrin sleeve and the OD of the stainless ring on the rudder. Well 0.006-0.010" clearance for a journal bearing is ok with me. And there's very little potential for failure here so I put it back together.
                              >
                              > The biggest issue is the distance between the top bearing and the lower bearing and just how "true" the rudder shaft is. In order to eliminate any play the shaft has to be true and the top and bottom bearings aligned. If one feels different resistance when you turn the wheel one way and then the other, chances are the shaft isn't true and/or the bearing are not aligned
                              > Replacing the bottom bearing is a pretty big (read expensive) job. If you want to do this for peace of mind feel free. If you want the best possible solution the rudder shaft needs to be turned up. This will take a pretty special piece of equipment and machine shop that can do it (read more expensive) then the lower bearing can be replaced and the top bearing replaced or at least floated in. If your biggest worry is the rudder falling out or breaking, fear not this is one of the strongest rudders I've ever seem . Now the weak link, there always is one. The only thing holding the rudder in the boat is the bond between the sleeve at the top and the fiberglass post and the single bolt going thru them. Personally I drilled thru and added another bolt. I also adjust my steering cable to be just tight enough and apply a light press on the packing gland. I do feel a slight a difference when I turn the wheel meaning my rudder shaft is not true but it spins very feely. I've had other drivers tell me "for a wheel steering the boat has great "feel"
                              >
                              > Sail Fast
                              > John
                              >


                            • J. Smith
                              My Variprofile (feathering) has adjustable pitch. I think with my last pitch change, I am around 16x11, which gives 6.2ish around 2500-2700 and 6.8ish around
                              Message 14 of 14 , May 15, 2011
                              • 0 Attachment
                                My Variprofile (feathering) has adjustable pitch. I think with my last pitch change, I am around 16x11, which gives 6.2ish around 2500-2700 and 6.8ish around 3400.
                                From: hansandsharon@...
                                Sender: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 10:12:05 -0400 (EDT)
                                To: <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
                                ReplyTo: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Re: Props

                                 

                                HI All,
                                My Gori is a 16x 11,
                                It gives me 6.1 @ 2500 rev,
                                                 6.7 @ 3000,
                                I do not go over 2500 very often, as it can smoke, the Yanmar people
                                tell's me to blow smoke once in a while but not often,
                                2500 is a very good cruising speed and the Engine sounds good at that speed,
                                and getting 6 or 6.5 with new paint is good for the Engine and boat speed.
                                I don't think you can "Plane" under Power, down wind with a Spinnaker and a good Wave,
                                then it is possible.
                                Good Sailing
                                J 28
                                "Last Dance"
                                 
                                 



                                ---- Original Message ----
                                From: Roy Briscoe <roysail@...>
                                To: j28sailors <j28sailors@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Sun, May 15, 2011 8:25 am
                                Subject: RE: [J28Sailors] Re: Props

                                 
                                I looked at our prop yesterday and it is a Varifold 15x10, so maybe a 9 pitch isn't all that drastic a reduction. I remembered the 15 but I guess that wasn't the pitch but the size. I think the fastest GPS speed we have seen out in the ocean off of Maine is 6.5, which I believe is the hull speed of the boat but we are not maxed out on the rpm, we are 200-300 short. 
                                 
                                Roy
                                 

                                To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                                From: j28_59@...
                                Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 01:57:54 +0000
                                Subject: [J28Sailors] Re: Props

                                 


                                I replaced my 16 dia. X 14 pitch Martec with a 16 X 12 ($839) because of the same issues. Gary at Martec was very helpful. My boat now will reach full engine rpm when the bottom is clean. The bow starts rising out of the water and the exaust is under water an inch or two and boat speed is about 7.25 knots. It is much better than it was but I feel like maybe I could have gone one pitch size smaller yet(16X10) because the engine is really working hard as the boat is trying to get on a plane.
                                When the boat was out of the water I checked the location of the screw heads on the shaft coupling and found that they lined up with the prop so I just rotate the shaft to align it. If it is right and you turn it 90deg you can hear the blade drop, if your not going too fast. So when you hear it drop turn it 90 and your good.
                                Marc
                                S/V Thumper
                                Seattle WA

                                --- In J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com, Roy Briscoe <roysail@...&g t; wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > Yeah, I would do some research on the prop sites, like Gori, Max prop, Martec, Flexofold. I wouldn't think you would want a 9 pitch, too drastic a change from 15. We do tend to max out around just over 3K and could probably use a slightly lower pitch. I'll take a look today to see what we have. I know it is a Martec folding with gears/teeth and the shape looks like it is "racing" prop as opposed to cruising prop, meaning less surface area, it came with boat. When we sail, we just put the tranmission in reverse and we are done. W/O the geared prop, you need to remove the steps so someone can turn the motor, get a flashlight, maybe get into the cockpit locker, remove the access panel and set the drive shaft, which is hopefully marked with some white or reflective paint, which is a 2 person job.
                                >
                                > We have to plan when we back up, it takes a bit for the boat to get moving, even from a dead stop. Maybe the cruising version would h andle this better, or a newer version of what we have.
                                >
                                > Roy
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                                > From: hansandsharon@...
                                > Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 20:06:00 -0400
                                > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Rudders/Rig tune
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > The "Gori folding prop is very good unit, it has teeth, intermesh so both blade folds as one,
                                > I have a 16" which I think is a big a 15 or 15 1/5 will be good, but I do get good boat speed and it backs up very good.
                                > The new J boats are using the "Flexofold" which is also a good unit, special for Racing
                                > Good Sailing,
                                > Hans,
                                > J 28 "Last Dance"
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ---- Original Message ----
                                > From: john power <sailingmaster@...>
                                > To: J28Sailors <J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com>
                                > Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 6:12 pm
                                > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Rudders/Rig tune
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Thanks
                                >
                                >
                                > Not sure what you mean by teeth, the prop I am thinking of buying is a 9pitch by michigan wheel co
                                > Its advertised on the j30 site.
                                >
                                >
                                > Thanks for the rig tune numbers
                                >
                                >
                                > JP
                                >
                                >
                                > On May 13, 2011, at 7:43 AM, Roy Briscoe wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > I think the J30 numbers are way too tight, and my J30 buddy thinks the J30 numbers are too tight for the J30. We took 5th in the Natio nals last year in Marblehead and had a bullet in one race, and he has won the Shields Nationals 3 times, so I trust his judgement.
                                >
                                > We played around with the rig last year and seem to settle in the vicinity of 760 for the lowers and 960 for the uppers for 10-1 4 knots of wind and adjusted from there depending on wind conditions. Though 200 lbs in either direction didn't seem to make a lot of difference. We tie the uppers to the lowers at the turnbuckle with some line and don't use any rings through the turnbuckle to keep it from unscrewing. Makes it easier for adjusting.
                                >
                                > The idea being to get the mast to do what you want and not too to drive it through the bottom of the boat with high tension.
                                >
                                > Roy
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > To: J28Sailors@yahoogroups.com
                                > F rom: sailingmaster@...
                                > Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 18:36:45 -0400
                                > Subject: Re: [J28Sailors] Rudders
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Thats what I figure is wrong with my rudder. The previous ownders paid a ton of money to the boat yard and had to have the job done a second time. I think the bill got so high that they got frustrated and decided to live with it.
                                > I didnt realize how poorly it was done until after I bought the boat. I am hoping to drop the rudder next fall and have the shaft trued, but I dread the bill for this!!!!! I also hope that the wet spot in my rudder might be the fairing problem that Hans mentioned....this gave me some hope.
                                >
                                >
                                > is there a stainless shaft inside this rudder or is it just one massive fiberglass construc tion? I am trying to figure out how the water could be getting in to begin with.
                                >
                                >
                                > I really love the boat so far. The old owners did a ton of up grades. This is just one big problem I did not foresee and it makes sailing the boat a lot less enjoyable. There is NO feel to the wheel and it can be tough to keep the boat on here feet when its really shifty in big winds.
                                >
                                >
                                > Other questions I have are rig tuning ideas, the old owners thought the boat was overpowered do to an old deep main. I think the rig tune was more of the issue. The mast butt was al the way and there is a ton of sag in the headstay
                                > (the boat yard tuned the boat to last years settings), so i figure the boat had minimal rake and too deep a slot. I have moved the mast step forward but wondering what people do for rig tension and headstay tension/sag.
                                > The J30 numbers seem really tight, and given t he age of the boat I dont know about cranking things up that tight. I probably wont race the boat much this year, but have alwasy sailed fast one designs I like to get the most performance out of her that I can.
                                >
                                >
                                > last question, for today anhow, does anyone know the correct size and pitch prop to match the boat and the 2gm? This boat came with a three blade prop which i think is incorrectly matched to the boat. Again, the old owners used the diesel very little. During the delivery, we had to fight some really strong head winds and seas. The diesel cant reach is max rpm of 32-3400 and if really pushed sends out black smoke. I am new to diesels but my studying tell me
                                > that this is and indication of the boat being overpropped. (All of the filters are clean, and I had the old diesel pumped out and the tank cleaned as well)
                                >
                                >
                                > Thanks to all for your advice to this big boat newbie!
                                >
                                > < div>JP
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > On May 12, 2011, at 12:42 PM, John wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Regarding the rudder bearing(s), please note that eliminating the play in the rudder is a little more complex than replacing the lower bearing.
                                > My case in point: I dropped my rudder a couple of years ago with the intent of replacing the bearing because of the "slop" I could feel. After looking at the assembly I said "why and I doing this" I mea sured the ID of the delrin sleeve and the OD of the stainless ring on the rudder. Well 0.006-0.010" clearance for a journal bearing is ok with me. And there's very little potential for failure here so I put it back together.
                                >
                                > The biggest issue is the distance between the top bearing and the lower bearing and just how "true" the rudder shaft is. In order to eliminate any play the shaft has to be true and the top and bottom bearings aligned. If one feels different resistance when you turn the wheel one way and then the other, chances are the shaft isn't true and/or the bearing are not aligned
                                > Replacing the bottom bearing is a pretty big (read expensive) job. If you want to do this for peace of mind feel free. If you want the best possible solution the rudder shaft needs to be turned up. This will take a pretty special piece of equipment and machine shop that can do it (read more expensive) then the lower bearing can be replaced and the top bearing replaced or at least floated in. If your biggest worry is the rudder falling out or breaking, fear not this is one of the strongest rudders I've ever seem . Now the weak link, there always is one. The only thing holding the rudder in the boat is the bond between the sleeve at the top and the fiberglass post and the single bolt going thru them. Personally I drilled thru and added another bolt. I also adjust my steering cable to be just tight enough and apply a light press on the packing gland. I do feel a slight a difference when I turn the wheel meaning my rudder shaft is not true but it spins very feely. I've had other drivers tell me "for a wheel steering the boat has great "feel"
                                >
                                > Sail Fast
                                > John
                                >


                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.