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advice for 1560's dress

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  • Marianne Perdomo
    Greetings! I am new here and would like some advice as to how to proceed with a dress ensemble for the second half of the 16th century. I quite like:
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 14, 2011
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      Greetings!

      I am new here and would like some advice as to how to proceed with a dress
      ensemble for the second half of the 16th century. I quite like:

      http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/ven4.jpg

      It's venetian. Paolo Caliari (Veronese), 1560s: Portrait of a Woman.

      It's a long term project but I'd like to get it right :) But I keep having
      doubts about it all... Mainly at the moment I'm wondering about the type of
      corset or stays or whatever to get it to lay properly. I've been told that
      an effigy corset might work, though I think it needs a lower back than it
      has in the book The Tudor Tailor. I also worry that the straps may show.
      Also, any reccommendations for fabric that would work? Preferably something
      not so expensive as it'll be hard saving up no matter what for the time
      being... ;) The shininess suggest silk or somesuch which would be great
      but... Could I get way with wool at all?

      Thanks!


      Marianne


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Karen Finnemore
      Greetings, Marianne! I am just finishing this dress, myself. I used a cotton velvet fabric, lined with medium-heavy weight linen. (I waited for the right
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 14, 2011
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        Greetings, Marianne!

        I am just finishing this dress, myself. I used a cotton velvet fabric,
        lined with medium-heavy weight linen. (I waited for the right fabric to be
        at a decent price, and to be truthful, the linen cost more than the velvet
        when I made my purchase.) For the bodice, I used an interlining of duck.

        It was my preference to bone the bodice, itself, rather than wearing
        seperate stays/corset. I have talked at length to people on both sides of
        the fence, as to whether to wear a corset or not, and in the end, I went
        with what was comfortable *for me*. I used the lining and interlining for
        the boning channels, so that you can't tell that it is self supporting from
        the outside. The reason I did this was, 1. I have physical issues that I
        need to take into consideration, and 2. I have very little in the bust
        department that would need extra hold, anyway.

        Are you planning to do the cut work sleeves, as well? I am absolutely
        thrilled with mine. There were not nearly as difficult as I had envisioned!

        -Ren

        On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 5:13 PM, Marianne Perdomo <
        marianne.perdomo@...> wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        > Greetings!
        >
        > I am new here and would like some advice as to how to proceed with a dress
        > ensemble for the second half of the 16th century. I quite like:
        >
        > http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/ven4.jpg
        >
        > It's venetian. Paolo Caliari (Veronese), 1560s: Portrait of a Woman.
        >
        > It's a long term project but I'd like to get it right :) But I keep having
        > doubts about it all... Mainly at the moment I'm wondering about the type of
        > corset or stays or whatever to get it to lay properly. I've been told that
        > an effigy corset might work, though I think it needs a lower back than it
        > has in the book The Tudor Tailor. I also worry that the straps may show.
        > Also, any reccommendations for fabric that would work? Preferably something
        > not so expensive as it'll be hard saving up no matter what for the time
        > being... ;) The shininess suggest silk or somesuch which would be great
        > but... Could I get way with wool at all?
        >
        > Thanks!
        >
        > Marianne
        >
        http://www.embroiderywithren.blogspot.com


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Marianne Perdomo
        Greetings! ... At least we re not likely to tun into each other at the same feast, :D ... Ah, I m in between. Some boning might just work but probably will be
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 15, 2011
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          Greetings!

          >
          > I am just finishing this dress, myself. I used a cotton velvet fabric,
          >

          :) !! Any photos yet?
          At least we're not likely to tun into each other at the same feast, :D

          > lined with medium-heavy weight linen. (I waited for the right fabric to be
          > at a decent price, and to be truthful, the linen cost more than the velvet
          > when I made my purchase.) For the bodice, I used an interlining of duck.
          >
          > It was my preference to bone the bodice, itself, rather than wearing
          > seperate stays/corset. I have talked at length to people on both sides of
          > the fence, as to whether to wear a corset or not, and in the end, I went
          > with what was comfortable *for me*. I used the lining and interlining for
          > the boning channels, so that you can't tell that it is self supporting from
          > the outside. The reason I did this was, 1. I have physical issues that I
          > need to take into consideration, and 2. I have very little in the bust
          > department that would need extra hold, anyway.
          >

          Ah, I'm in between. Some boning might just work but probably will be
          slightly too curvy, so I figure I'll need more support. I was hoping to make
          an experimental corset with some willow. I may out alot less "boning" than
          in the effigy corset, just some at center fromt and back, to hold the lines,
          and a bit down the sides to keep things smoother.

          >
          > Are you planning to do the cut work sleeves, as well? I am absolutely
          > thrilled with mine. There were not nearly as difficult as I had envisioned!
          >

          Yes! It's part of the charm of that gown, I think. How did you manage yours,
          if I may ask? :)

          And do you just wear it over a chemise? Or did you make a plastron / stomach
          cover thingy?

          Any trouble with the dress slipping off your shoulders?

          Cheers!



          Marianne


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • otsisto
          http://festiveattyre.com/gallery/venetian/index.html The diary http://festiveattyre.com/research/venetian/index.html I like her way of creating lacing slots.
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 16, 2011
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            http://festiveattyre.com/gallery/venetian/index.html

            The diary
            http://festiveattyre.com/research/venetian/index.html
            I like her way of creating lacing slots.

            Note: I have seen an up close of this painting and there is a brocade
            material showing under the lacing and not a camicia. And I vaguely remember
            seeing something with the sleeves that indicate that what is seen is sheer
            material gathered to be slightly puffed and a white material under that but
            I am only sure of the front panel.

            De

            -----Original Message-----
            Greetings!

            I am new here and would like some advice as to how to proceed with a dress
            ensemble for the second half of the 16th century. I quite like:

            http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/ven4.jpg

            It's venetian. Paolo Caliari (Veronese), 1560s: Portrait of a Woman.

            It's a long term project but I'd like to get it right :) But I keep having
            doubts about it all... Mainly at the moment I'm wondering about the type of
            corset or stays or whatever to get it to lay properly. I've been told that
            an effigy corset might work, though I think it needs a lower back than it
            has in the book The Tudor Tailor. I also worry that the straps may show.
            Also, any reccommendations for fabric that would work? Preferably something
            not so expensive as it'll be hard saving up no matter what for the time
            being... ;) The shininess suggest silk or somesuch which would be great
            but... Could I get way with wool at all?

            Thanks!


            Marianne
          • Bella
            ... Note: I have seen an up close of this painting and there is a brocade material showing under the lacing and not a camicia.
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 16, 2011
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              >>>http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/ven4.jpg

              Note: I have seen an up close of this painting and there is a brocade

              material showing under the lacing and not a camicia.<<<<



              De, I would be very interested and grateful if you can describe the fabric. From what little I can see in my image, the fabric under the lacing appears to be patterned. Are there any other details you can remember about it? Was the design on the fabric raised at all, or perhaps padded/puffy looking? Or was it a flat design comprised of matt and shiny areas?


              Bella
              The Realm of Venus

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • otsisto
              ... Note: I have seen an up close of this painting and there is a brocade material showing under the lacing and not a camicia.
              Message 6 of 12 , Oct 16, 2011
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                -----Original Message-----
                >>http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/ven4.jpg

                Note: I have seen an up close of this painting and there is a brocade
                material showing under the lacing and not a camicia.<<<<

                De, I would be very interested and grateful if you can describe the fabric.
                From what little I can see in my image, the fabric under the lacing appears
                to be patterned. Are there any other details you can remember about it? Was
                the design on the fabric raised at all, or perhaps padded/puffy looking? Or
                was it a flat design comprised of matt and shiny areas?

                Bella
                The Realm of Venus

                To clarify, Up close should have been more; I have seen this online at a
                site that I tried to locate again and failed that had a really good zoom.
                What I remember is that it had a slight off-white background and a white
                design. There was a band across the top that was a scrolled leaf vine
                between two (1/8"?) bands. closer to the bottom was something that looked
                like a scalloped/ribbed vase.

                Well this is something, :|
                http://tinyurl.com/3loubz4
                Note something of a vase in the lower part of the v.

                I am not sure if folks have noticed but she has scalloped lace going around
                the neckline which is probably connected to the camicia but can't say for
                sure.

                By the way when searching I found this Veronese painting on the Joconde site
                http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/image/joconde/0365/m006504_99-010155_p.jpg

                http://tinyurl.com/63ldqrf

                De
              • Marianne Perdomo
                Thank you for the interesting links, data and thoughts :) The best picture I ve found so far online is at:
                Message 7 of 12 , Oct 17, 2011
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                  Thank you for the interesting links, data and thoughts :)

                  The best picture I've found so far online is at:
                  http://starlightmasquerade.com/PortraitGallery/Ladder-Laced-Venetian/inspiration-pages/Venetian2.htm

                  I can see the leafy-scrolly thing at the top :) Taking that and giving it
                  lots more contrast I think I also see a pattern on the tummy cover, like a
                  kind of vase, perhaps. Is it possible to send files to the list?
                  I also think I see something on the edge of the cutouts... What do you
                  think? Tommorrow I'll try searching again...

                  Now I'm daydreaming of reticella lace and patterns and things.. :)

                  Cheers!



                  Marianne


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Amanda Dake
                  Blasted Veronese and his almost off the shoulders shoulder straps. For years I have experimented and tried to make shoulder straps which stayed up, supported
                  Message 8 of 12 , Oct 19, 2011
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                    Blasted Veronese and his almost off the shoulders shoulder straps. For
                    years I have experimented and tried to make shoulder straps which stayed up,
                    supported heavy sleeves and did not make me run around like a camp follower
                    in that movie with Rutger Hauer.

                    The only solution I found was to either cut the back center as a V or have
                    the dress back be straight and the straps extend from the front to the
                    center back.

                    Another solution would be to make the back normal and construct a corset,
                    pinning or stitching the shoulder straps to it.



                    Piping in it looks like it is either a brocaded fabric showing in the
                    opening or more reticella lace.

                    Amanda.

                    Back to lurking.



                    From: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Marianne
                    Perdomo
                    Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 3:16 PM
                    To: Italian_Renaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] advice for 1560's dress





                    Thank you for the interesting links, data and thoughts :)

                    The best picture I've found so far online is at:
                    http://starlightmasquerade.com/PortraitGallery/Ladder-Laced-Venetian/inspira
                    tion-pages/Venetian2.htm

                    I can see the leafy-scrolly thing at the top :) Taking that and giving it
                    lots more contrast I think I also see a pattern on the tummy cover, like a
                    kind of vase, perhaps. Is it possible to send files to the list?
                    I also think I see something on the edge of the cutouts... What do you
                    think? Tommorrow I'll try searching again...

                    Now I'm daydreaming of reticella lace and patterns and things.. :)

                    Cheers!

                    Marianne

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Marianne Perdomo
                    Could the zoomale picture be this one? https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/TIWXhewQe6SF1dd9Lfc2Bw I can t seem to find anything better... :/ [Non-text
                    Message 9 of 12 , Oct 19, 2011
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                      Could the zoomale picture be this one?

                      https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/TIWXhewQe6SF1dd9Lfc2Bw

                      I can't seem to find anything better... :/


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • otsisto
                      No, this is the first time I have seen that site. I believe that it was a museum or Sothersby(sp) site. De ... Could the zoomale picture be this one?
                      Message 10 of 12 , Oct 19, 2011
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                        No, this is the first time I have seen that site. I believe that it was a
                        museum or Sothersby(sp) site.

                        De

                        -----Original Message-----
                        Could the zoomale picture be this one?

                        https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/TIWXhewQe6SF1dd9Lfc2Bw

                        I can't seem to find anything better... :/
                      • Bella
                        ... site that I tried to locate again and failed that had a really good zoom. What I remember is that it had a slight off-white background and a white design.
                        Message 11 of 12 , Oct 19, 2011
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                          >>>To clarify, Up close should have been more; I have seen this online at a

                          site that I tried to locate again and failed that had a really good zoom.
                          What I remember is that it had a slight off-white background and a white
                          design. There was a band across the top that was a scrolled leaf vine
                          between two (1/8"?) bands. closer to the bottom was something that looked
                          like a scalloped/ribbed vase.<snip><<<<

                          Yes, the vase is the bit most visible. Thanks for this description De. There are many examples of decorated lacing openings so I needed no further convincing that what we are seeing is a stomacher of sorts, but it is good to get a clearer idea of the kinds of fabrics used for them. Vecellio tells us that "this opening used to be of gold and decorated with needlework, but now it is plain and without any other trim". Personally I prefer the decorated ones. :)


                          >>>>I am not sure if folks have noticed but she has scalloped lace going around
                          the neckline which is probably connected to the camicia but can't say for
                          sure.<<<<

                          It's hard to say, but it sure is pretty. 

                          >>>By the way when searching I found this Veronese painting on the Joconde site
                          http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/image/joconde/0365/m006504_99-010155_p.jpg%c2%a0 <<<


                          Thank you De. Kendra sent me this one a long while back but being the slacker I am I still haven't put it (and a whole bunch of others) on the website. 


                          Bella







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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • otsisto
                          I remember this gown as it is one that if ever I have the time and someone to help me, I want to make something like it. I have 10 yds of chocolate brown
                          Message 12 of 12 , Oct 19, 2011
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                            I remember this gown as it is one that if ever I have the time and someone
                            to help me, I want to make something like it. I have 10 yds of chocolate
                            brown cotton velvet waiting and 5" wide lace for the cuffs.
                            When i get to it I will decide whether i will keep it chocolate or give it a
                            red dye bath.
                            And personally I don't think your a slacker.
                            De
                            Like most folks life is having fun spinning me around until I feel like
                            throwing up. :]


                            -----Original Message-----
                            Yes, the vase is the bit most visible. Thanks for this description De. There
                            are many examples of decorated lacing openings so I needed no further
                            convincing that what we are seeing is a stomacher of sorts, but it is good
                            to get a clearer idea of the kinds of fabrics used for them. Vecellio tells
                            us that "this opening used to be of gold and decorated with needlework, but
                            now it is plain and without any other trim". Personally I prefer the
                            decorated ones. :)

                            Bella
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